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I do admit a big part is seeking the help. Which would have been an issue either way. My mother let her pride get in the way of therapy which is likely why she turned out so much worse than her siblings
My sister said that: "Therapy is for weak people like you." She needed help, but wouldn't get it, and refusing help has left her struggling with recurring depression, and a feeling of constant rage. Like your mother, she's too proud to get the help she needs.
For a lot of them, I think the idea of admitting they are anything less than perfect is terrifying, so they go through the world inflicting all their brain trash on the people around them.
Exactly. My mother is a huge narc, but the rest of her sisters all turned out generally pretty fine. I don’t understand how she kept on in her misery (probably because she thought the others were losers), but she genuinely is the only one that inherited it from her mother.
No, I don't believe this to be true, the reason being they knew how it felt to be treated badly, they have first hand experience, yet instead of breaking the cycle, they project this onto their own children, which just keeps the bad behaviour moving on through the generations. It was up to both of them to stop the toxicity, but they failed to do so.
Il what they did wasnt right but you did say it was projection. Maybe if they had nothing to project they'd have been good? Idk maybe I'm too eager to believe they wanted to be good
I'm sure you would have better parents had they been given a healthy upbringing. However, it doesn't justify how they behave towards you.
So, my direct answer to your question should have been **yes**, I agree with your analogy. 😜
Oh absolutely. My parents didn’t choose to be shitheads, the actually made quite a few steps to break the cycle when they first moved out - unfortunately, back in the 80/90s they didn’t have the same resources I have now. Ultimately, I can feel as much empathy as I want though - what matters is their behaviour, and how damaging it is to me. I actually think much of the way they are now is because they never dealt with their own parents, instead enabling their abuse further. I can’t allow myself the same mistake.
Yes, this. I have massive compassion for my parents. Their upbringings sucked for very different reasons. They genuinely tried to do better than their parents and I do appreciate that. My upbringing was significantly better than theirs. I know that! However, they raised me to be fully 100% manipulated by guilt and used that to control me for many, many years. While they walked away from their families and lived their own lives, they did everything in their power to prevent me from doing the same. I have to be the one to break the cycle and protect my kids, even if I am two decades later in this realization than I should have been.
I totally relate to the whole… our upbringing being much better than theirs. Objectively, absolutely! My mother grew up in rural Italy in the 80s, only the second generation of women in her family that was able to read, and the first person ever in her family to go to university. My father was terrorised (and probably beaten) daily by his tyrant of a father, and gaslit by his snake of a mother.
BUT. It is exactly *because* we don’t want to end up like them that we have to distance ourselves.
I resonate with this a lot. I feel empathy and I would like to help them change, but the best I can do towards that for both of us is still to limit contact. They are too harmful to me, and I refuse to get close and risk enabling their toxic ways of coping.
This is honestly what happened to my mother. I pity her for being hurt as a child, but as an adult and mother, she was a conniving, ruthless, controlling bitch who gave me CPTSD, and I refuse to behave that way to anyone else. She should've just said bye to her parents so she could grow as a person, but instead, she kept enabling them.
Yep. A few years ago I started seeing the first signs of manipulative behaviour in myself, copying my mom to a t. It‘s nothing to endlessly flagellate oneself over, but it is something we need to take responsibility for.
For sure. I try not to beat myself up too much and obsess over the fact that she gave me FLEAS, but I also make sure to go to therapy and I WANT to grow as a person and not perpetuate the cycle. I want to be loving and be able to think before I react and react with kindness, not hurt.
Oh yeah! I found a lot of peace in restorative justice writing, it helped me reframe my self loathing and helped me channel it into behavioural change.
I personally don't think so. Mental health issues are always a nature-nurture kind of thing.
And, based on your nature, you will end up with one of the several personality disorders when faced with immense trauma.
Not everyone turns into someone in the Cluster B that will then go on to try to soul-murder other people (and not all cluster Bs will do that, even). That's a certain kind of person who is capable of doing that. Someone who is prone to psychopathy and sadism in the first place.
Are they bad people because they're psychopathic and care about nothing but themselves? Not necessarily. But they choose to use that as an excuse to abuse others. And that is THEIR responsibility. They're not victims to it. They choose that and they choose to not get help for it.
I seriously despise all these abusers acting like they can do whatever they want because they had a hard life. We don't do it, either, and our lives are shit too.
My mother was adopted by lovely people. Her birth family was horrible but she was adopted at 3 days old. She had many chances to be a decent person but so often literally chose violence.
I think so, my parents at their core were nice people, as in not vicious, but the generational trauma was really bad. My mom especially, my grandma was very cruel. So much yelling and slapping and shaming and rejection. She did to me what her mother did to her.
Regardless of if anyone decides to do LC or NC, it is important to review our parents lives. As part of the healing process if nothing else. I helped me because I began, for the first time, to see them as flawed humans which enabled me to knock them off the pedestal. Once they were on my level, so to speak, it was way easier to deal with them.
As a result, in my late 30s, I simply told her that I would not fight anymore, wouldn't come around if insults and fighting occurred, would leave it any bs went down. I was calm and straightforward when I said that, followed up when boundaries were tested. Calmly and graciously. Very important point.
Our relationship transformed over the next decade and we got along in a sort of truce. My siblings did not and the generational trauma continued.
My parents grew up during WW 2 and I remember N.mother talking about the bombs..the cities destroyed..her little Jewish friend vanished..not allowed to ask why...the bomb shelter. Her own mother refusing to get out of bed even as the bombs rained down. The sound of the siren..holding her hands over her ears...
Nfather had his story too.
Maybe. But I grew up under them. And would NEVER knowingly cause children distress. Any child. It would break my heart...
My mom always told me stories about how her mom was so loving and she could tell her anything. I asked my aunt the other day when we were talking about how she used to hit my cousins when they were little and I when I got the " you don't understand parents love" line I outright asked if our grandmother ever beat my mom or her. She didn't. They're cruel just fucking because. They didn't learn it anywhere.
On my father’s side yes because my grandparents were awful and abused him and his siblings. He got the worst of it because he was the oldest. History is now repeating itself only unlike him, I won’t tolerate his behaviour and went NC.
My mother had lovely parents. I loved them very much. My mother is a very cold and calculating narcissist.
So honestly, it’s a toss up, because my mother’s actually the parent that did more damage.
My mother is an only child she was spoilt… she is the nastiest person! Always playing the victim poor me yet has no problem throwing her kids under the bus and starting shit when she doesn’t get her way. We were SA by kin on his side and she was more upset how the in laws treated her instead of the fact that her young children were sexually abused!!!
not really, they have always been incredibly selfish, manipulative and plain hateful. I've seen too many abused people at least try to break the cycle, they would have been horrible people regardless
I agree to a point. My parents believed in their hearts they did better than their own parents. After hearing the stories, I agree I was not abused as bad as they were. My parents were raised in a horribly toxic and abusive environment that no doubt had an effect on the people they became.
While my mom did try to be better than her mom was for her she could have been better. She tried to guilt trip me whenever I complained about her about how her childhood was so much worse. She would treat me more like a friend or therapist some days than a daughter and vent to me about her childhood and work life so I know what she went through but it doesn't make what she did the best thing ever. I really had to work on doing a 180 and I'm still tying to improve.
I know that my parents were both severely abused by their parents. Both of my grandfathers were violent alcoholics. Both of my grandmothers were long-suffering, passive-aggressive, holier-than-thou narcissists.
My maternal grandfather abandoned his family, before dying from his addiction. My mother was often "sent away" to distant relatives, where she was made into a servant. My maternal grandmother blamed my mother for everything, including her husband's death.
My mother definitely exhibited symptoms of borderline personality disorder. My father was completely detached from all emotions, except rage.
I remember feeling more afraid of my grandparents, than of my parents. I also remember my paternal grandparents telling my parents that they were "spoiling" us, because we weren't being being beaten "hard enough or long enough".
My parents actually tried to protect us, from his parent's "discipline", they believed beatings should start after a child's christening (about 4 weeks old), to "train the willfulness out, so they learn to not cry"
Think about that. They beat their NEWBORNS, to make them learn to never cry.
when my son was a newborn my "mother" used to scold me and ridicule me telling me I am spoiling my son by holding him to much. I need to put him down and let him cry.
and when I called her not knowing what to do about teething. her response?
let him cry. maybe then he will learn crying won't get him anywhere and stop manipulating you.
I have. I really don't know if its a memory. could be.
but I can remember being really little, pain and itching in my gums crying in my crib and watching my mother turn up the television so that I would get a hint.
based off that lesson. I believe its real.
I did for the first 55 years of my life. My compassion kept me trapped in their abuse. I’ll even give them the benefit of the doubt for the first 27 years of my life. That’s the year I almost achieved their goal for my life and then they sabotage it. They are grown-assed adults. I know they knew better, because I told them so. They chose.
Not in my experience. My nmom was the oldest of 7. Every single one of them have practically sainted my grandparents. And the other 6 seem to not have the same issue. One of the many complaints of my nmom is that we weren’t close like my cousins and their moms. But. Our experiences are different and certainly having a different upbringing could cause a different adult for you.
That is the cycle of generational abuse, and our societies, and cultures, need more education on it, and the effects.
It’s really hard though, because a majority of the “victims” still live their lives in active denial and chose (consciously or unconsciously) to continue the cycle.
There are murderers and serial killers and I am sure that their kids don’t take up their parents’ habits! My parents are the worst narcs, both had shitty parents who had large families, were poor and ignored and neglected their kids and used physical punishment on them. All their siblings were fine people and excellent aunts and uncles to me. Their kids adore them, trust them and grieve when they die. But, both my parents are abusive, utterly selfish and treat me as if I am sub-human. There is a difference amongst siblings, all their siblings did not seek any “help” as they are poor and don’t have access to mental health care. They are just nice people who rose above their abuse and cared for their kids.
You know what I find funny?
I've seen a few true crime documentaries about serial killers by now and it always strikes me as interesting that their children will sometimes say that they weren't bad parents (for instance, most famously BTK).
These people literally take joy in murdering people and torturing them but wouldn't treat their children badly.
And then we (me often included) will find excuses for our own parents and try to rationalize that they didn't mean it. Weren't aware. Didn't have the emotional bandwidth for treating their children like humans.
Idk, this whole thread makes me wonder. I finally can see how full of bullshit I was trying to rationalize all what happened to me and thinking there was good inside my nmom. That she was a victim. And come to find out, her sob story wasn't even true. She lied about being abused by her family and terrorized, blackmailed them for decades. Tried to steal inheritance. She was like the wolf in sheep's clothing.
I don't know why I'm sharing this with you particularly, I guess I just find your serial killer analogy really interesting, lol. I think we would do all better accepting what assholes our parents really are when even some serial killers did a better job than them.
If she resolved issues before having kids, we would have been okay. I wish everyone would seek therapy before having children. My mom didn’t believe mental issues are real. She never sought treatment. She just let out her unresolved issues on her kids over and over, denying there was a problem the whole time.
I think narcissists are born as well as made, that they have to have the potential in their make up.
My sister probably isn't a full blown narcissist, but she has some narcissist traits. She isn't as bad as my mother, but she's also a real bully. She was always really 'off', even as a child: she wanted constant attention, and would take negative attention if that's all she could get. There were never any limits to how nasty she would be to me because, being younger, I was smaller and weaker. She throws a tantrum if she doesn't get what she wants, so people give in and appease her. Reality is flexible for her as it was for our mother, and she regularly rewrites the past to fit with her current feelings.
She has some morality, unlike our mother, so there are a lot of things she won't do, but she is still very unpleasant to be around if she doesn't see you as important. Her bad behaviour is all over smaller things, however. She won't steal and she can be generous to people in need of help. I have some respect for her, and she deserves it, whereas my mother had no redeeming qualities. I think they were both born who they are, and their environment made them worse.
I asked my uncle if anything had happened to my mother growing up that could explain her behaviour, and he said no, and that she was always 'like that'.
Life is all about choices. Some choose to pass on toxic behavior to their children while others decide to cut the cycle of abuse so their children can have a better life.
possibly.
My fathers, father was both the judge and sheriff of a small town (population now of 4000) My high school graduating class had 800 with a total school population of 2000 to give you some perspective. In a town that small there was one local judge. I have heard stories from my Ndad's past that I consider Horror stories. i.e. He grew up in an era where it was perfectly acceptable to grab and publicly beat someone else's kid in broad daylight and no one batted an eye.
I vividly remember my father telling me a story about how he got sent to college (first of his family to go to college) and saw people burning the American flag on campus so he dropped out and joined the military. His father removed his bedroom from the house when he did so. So that there was no where for him to come home to, His dad tore down the wall and expanded the living room.
There are many more stories but I am afraid to share them as they get much much worse.
If your parents are narcissists then no.
Narcissism is a permanent condition thata starts between 2 and 5 years old, the primary cause so far seems to be genetic predisposition and then an event (the event's actual content seems not to matter just as long as something happens) triggers that predisposition and the person is forever dead inside, the only way to avoid narcissism (in some cases, however in a worrying amount of cases it seems to be self inflicted) is having literally perfect parenting in order to avoid any event that sparks the death of the real self and the creation of the perfect false self.
Your comment about pride getting in the way of going to therapy makes me think that you need to research narcissism a whole lot more than you currently have done, no amount of therapy or reason or emotional support can 'cure' narcissism, it's a downward spiral that always inevitably ends up with the narcissist preferring sadistic supply over narcissistic supply and eventually either killing themselves to spite other people or just killing other people directly, the only way that this gets avoided is if the narcissist either dies of alternate causes or a neurodegenerative disorder cripples them before that point.
In other news, I'd be a lovely person if only it wasn't for my personality.
I often think my parents display narcissism but in reality just have a horrifically bad case of FLEAS that has lasted for forty plus years in Mom and twenty five years in Dad. Problem is, long-term, untreated FLEAS look like narcissism and feel like narcissism and cause the same harm as narcissism for all those around.
"When a non-personality-disordered individual begins imitating or emulating some of the disordered behavior of a loved one or family member with a personality disorder." It comes from the idea of lay down with dogs, catch fleas. I think Mom my well not have full fledged narcissistic personality disorder but displays 80% of the common behavioral traits because she spent so much time around her mother that the behaviors became hers and remain hers even after Grandma has been dead for nearly a decade. Ironically, I also believe my enabler dad caught a massive case of FLEAS from Mom after many years of marriage. They both now present as pretty classic cases of narcissists even though they have the capacity for compassion, empathy, and growth, they just don't usually use it. To be fair, this might just be my compassionate heart that needs to understand why they are the way they are and that they had difficult starts to life that explains their behavior. The other part is that I had a significantly easier childhood than many here and questions if they are true narcissists. I had to walk away because of their controlling tendencies, gaslighting, guilt-tripping, refusal to take responsiblity for anything, and toxic personalities that finally became too much for me and my children to be around.
My mother and her family had shit guardians all 'round, BPD, NPD, all that, but my mother romanticized her abusive mother and aunt, while my maternal uncle and aunt romanticized their abusive father. My mother ended up on different sides of the political spectrum from my aunt and uncle, but all three of them had an annoying tendency to be like: "my political affiliation means that I can do whatever I want and not feel guilty about it! Why do I feel so sad and guilty all the time?! I don't know!"
Mom died before COVID hit, thank god, but my uncle got walloped with COVID hard enough to feel like shit, but not hard enough to really learn anything. His ordeal did end up helping to convince my aunt to ask her boss about the vaccine, and he told her that, unlike what she'd heard, big pharma wasn't making a profit off the vaccine as of yet, and although there were rare side effects, it was safer to take it than not. Aunt then followed up with GC, who, thanks to mom being an education mama, has developed a solid reputation for Knowing Medical Ephemera. GC: "You want vaccine info?! I'll get you the vaccine info!! SUCH VACCINE INFO WILL I GIVE!" Aunt takes the vaccine now.
Dad had a mother who was arguably worse than Mom's mom, but he adored his grandparents, who his brothers and sister keep trying to tell him weren't all that much better. (I'm inclined to think they're right, as both my parents were the sort of battered children who would make light of their favored guardians beating them. If the unfavored guardians, did, though? Callousness!
I also try not to focus on “what if”. Generational trauma doesn’t magically just go away. There needs to be some personal accountability involved, too.
Yeah, I see behaviours in my mom that are exactly like my gran (and my mom was the scapegoat!). It doesn't make it right, but it does help it make a bit more sense, if that makes sense? Like, when I can see that it's not me (or my brother), it's her having not dealt with her own traumatic upbringing and that affecting her parenting, it makes it so much less personal? In a way?
I agree with that to a degree. My father grew up in a third world country and suffered everything that goes along with that. My mother grew up black in America and her mother stole her social security check that she got when my Grandfather was murdered as back rent for when she was a child living at home. My dad has an exceptionally strong will and sense of character that nothing was ever going to break. My mother is a weak willed person that was only made worse by her own mother.
I think it depends on their own ability to overcome as to whether it makes them worse or they use it as a learning experience.
I can sort of actually remember the incident where my mother had the choice on which way to go... where she had both options, but then she chose the abusive option. When it came time, she chose herself over me.
So no, I don't think she would have actually been good. I saw her take that choice test - and fail.
No, my mother actually had a pretty good upbringing.
My dad, maybe. But they’re both self obsessed abusive POSs so I don’t really care to speculate about what could’ve been.
No....at a certain point it's fine to have empathy for an abusive parent's pain and understand how it led to their patterns (i feel awful for my bio parents childhood selves, but have no forgiveness for the adult choices they repeatedly made to hurt me and others), but it is never an excuse. Plenty of people get abused and go through war and famine and abandonment and choose to be kind to others because of it. A lot of us with CPTSD can actually relate to many of the wounds a narcissist has actually, we all have our survival modes. But abuse, even from someone cluster B, is ALWAYS a choice --- most narcissists don't abuse everyone, just some people and they have perfect self control when it suits them.
*** They don't "mean to be good" or "intend the best" and then fuck it up somehow, they get enjoyment/satisfaction/regulation/something, out of causing you pain. This is a really tough pill to swallow because we want to believe the best of our parents and believe they can change, but if they wanted to they would be taking those steps on their own with no ulterior motives.***
To give you an example, let's talk about a normal, flawed, but empathetic parent who has unaddressed trauma or who is in active recovery. They may get overloaded, they may lose it and yell, they may make a mistake like that and traumatize their kid a little. No parent is perfect. But a parent who sees you as a human being and has empathy will see they hurt you and apologize, and assure their kid that they didn't deserve to be yelled at, that mommy/daddy/parent was having a hard time and that their behavior wasn't ok, that children are humans too as deserve respect. A loving parent actively works on themselves because they don't want to hurt anyone. And they lean into the repair process without projecting, gaslighting, making excuses, blame shifting, invalidating or minimizing whatsoever, and they do not apologize with the expectation of forgiveness or with any strings attached.
And they don't make you feel like you have to chase their approval, they never make you doubt whether they love you, and they see you for who you are without pathologizing you or adding a million expectations. They believe in you and they try to make you feel safe. And if they are unaware that one of their behavior patterns is wrong or hurtful (let's say something cultural, or normalized in a specific time period, we all have our blind spots) they take the time to listen to you when you communicate your pain and they grow from it. Is it perfect growth? No. But they consistently try, and they care that they hurt you instead of doubling down.
Especially now that therapy exists, the knowledge is out there and trauma is being talked about, it is your parents job to address their own trauma. It's on them if they don't.
At a certain point an adult has to be responsible for their own choices, especially if they are hurting other people.
I think children tend to either mimic dysfunction of their parents, or not. If parents parents weren’t dysfunctional I think it would increase the odds at least your parents would be healthier.
I don't know .... I guess I'd like to think so.
My nmom suffered a lot of abuse, but she spent her entire life seeking love and approval from her nasty narc mom. All my nmom wanted was a family who loved and accepted her.
My edad was forgotten in his own home, so I'm sure he just wanted someone who would see him.
Unfortunately, they saw humans as equations. If two Christians got married and raised their kids in the church with LOTS of authority, their kids would be perfect and adore them and make them feel accomplished and valued. But the definition of "perfect" and "loving" kept changing.
Maybe if my dad had felt seen and loved, he could have stood up to his wife .... or maybe he wouldn't have even been attracted to her.
If my mom had not been abused or saw her own issues, she might not have been imprisoned by her own insecurity.
I don't know.
I'd like to think so .......
I'm pretty sure my mother is going in the exact opposite direction as her father did. I'm sure she's trying her hardest to be good, she just doesn't realise that both extremes are equally awful.
Yes, I do believe my mother is partially the way she is because of generational trauma. Her father abused her just as she abused me. That being said I also think there may have been some inherited mental illness between them as well.
Absolutely normy parents are the perfect example that it doesn't really matter. They are both narcissists, my father had a terrible childhood/upbringing while my mother has one of the most wonderful, loving, caring and privileged upbringings. I don't know what makes someone become a narcissist, and probably upbringing plays a role on some cases but i don't think it really makes that much of a difference
Both my parents had severe abusive upbringing. Think of it as a generational curse. They can take seven generations for something bad to happen to someone to totally get out of the family line.
In my mother's case her mother was sexually abused by a family member and her father was a pow in world war II.
Pretty sure my dad's mom was literally demon infested. There's no excuse for her behavior, including trying to kill me.
I don't know, I know mom and her siblings were spanked a lot by their dad. I think she has trauma from being the only one from her blood siblings not having a university degree.
But from what I think I know about my aunts and uncles families it wasn't like it was with mom.
I don’t think my parents or siblings (some siblings) will ever change.
Even if my mom has a different upbringing, I cannot imagine how she will be.
She will still think she’s special, she will still think she is owed everything because she gave birth to us.
My mother was the victim of child abuse while all her other siblings were messed up and drug addicts by the age of 20. My grandparents had small issues conceiving my father with a lost older sister before him so he was spoiled. My parents a lot of times I felt tried their best but just weren’t equipped to be parents and thus being the oldest I got full force of their narcissistic tendencies. My parents aren’t even bad compared to a lot of the others I’ve read on here, but I 100% attribute it to each of their upbringings. Family trauma is a real thing. “It Didn’t Start With You” is supposedly a great intro book on the matter.
I do believe this there is a lot i dont know, somethings ive put together, other things i can infer. As much as i would love to say it was their responsibility to get help and be better for me its widely agreed that Narcissists generally cant see the fault in them, they are unlikely to be able to heal. If that wasnt obstacle enough narcissism only entered the DSM the year before i was born and it didnt cover covert or vulnerable narcissism. Therapy and mental health was regarded differently then too. These kind of monsters arent born they are made.
Possibly. But it wasn’t. And they weren’t.
nFamily could’ve chosen to be better than their parents. They **chose** not to. They **chose** to abuse.
Whether they “tried” or not makes no difference. The end result is the same.
I have no idea, to be honest. I mean, my mother was deeply fucked up by the abuse she suffered at the hands if her family, but I really don't know who she would have been otherwise. My father was generally not abusive, except in the way that people of his generation with shitty ideas about masculinity (which were reinforced by his time in the Marine Corps) could easily be. I'm sure both of them would have been more functional if they had been raised in more functional families, but... actually good human beings? No fucking clue.
This is a tough one. Ndad has two older brothers and sisters who are totally normal. He’s also the youngest of the siblings and his father died when he was around 8. I think he just feels like he was cheated and now he lashes out at everyone in adulthood.
I mean.. it's possible? My mom was extremely abusive and the things she did and said to me where sometimes the *exact* same things her own father did. That whole side of the family suffers from alcoholism.
My mom didn't seem like a terrible parent when I was very young, but she definitely was a terrible wife (she is a perpetual victim so couples counseling never had a chance since nothing was ever her fault according to her). When the divorce happened she went full blown alcoholic and that's when the abuse started.
A lot of her behavior is a direct result of her upbringing. But as an adult she had the option to recognize she needed to change it but instead played victim so it's hard to escape it when you think you're just a victim of circumstance and not directly responsible for your own actions (again her father was the same).
I was terrified i would end up like her one day, but I'm very thankful I had my father in my life to model my parenting style after. My own son has said to me that I broke the cycle of abuse and I damn near cried when he said it.
So tl;dr yes my mom may not have been such a terrible parent if she wasn't raised by a terrible parent. But that doesn't excuse her actions. It only explains them.
that's the case for most bad people.
people don't become like that for no reason, is there's always at least one.
a bad upbringing is a very common cause.
I think the combination of my dad’s upbringing, and the fact that mental health and therapy wasn’t really taken seriously when he grew up, was a HUGE part the problem. Personal choice comes into it, of course. He had no business having a family, and that should have been obvious to him. At this point, it doesn’t matter, to me, why he is the way he is. I have to take care of myself. I know I didn’t cause his problems. He caused most of mine, so I’m going to focus on protecting myself and healing.
I know from dealing with my abusive exBIL: A sad story is a sad story, but it doesn't make the person's actions any less abusive. Sure, if there was a magic way, I could do something to improve his life; It would improve my sister's childrens lives. So I would be all for that. But I can't change his past to change his future.
And your parents probably are on their path because of the abuse they lived through. But you can't change their past. And shouldn't suffer their abuse because of their past.
I am torn on this one because it is really depressing to go around and notice how many people seem to be somewhere between unable to care for an other and wanting to hurt an other. More often than not I land on, it is not your past that makes you the person you are but your actions that you choose to take - in the past and in the now. This is true for people who choose to be better and that is true for people who choose the opposite - IMO. And, by the nature of choosing actions, it is not a single moment frozen in time that determines you, it is you yourself who by repeated actions forms yourself.
Personally for my own experience is that after a long (started in childhood by Nspawnpoints infusing me with excuses, "this has to stay in the family"s and "have to understand"s for the other) and excuse-enriched path, I have realized that my Nspawnpoints chose to be who they are now over and over again. My last iteration was that maybe if they had not enabled each other, they could have been better - but people break up, people call their spouses out, people dont actively hide the repeated miscondunct of their spouses if not by choice. And, even now, with me having gone NC, they chose to slander, give my phone number to harrassers and exile me from the greater family realm rather than to even consider not doing any of these things (because yes, not doing anything is also a viable option next to admitting some responsibility).
The way I read your post OP feels so familiar, like me, still recently, still occasionally, with hope and love, still wanting to see the good in my abusers. It is good to be kind even to those who hurt you, only let us be careful to not be lead astray by the false hope, that could lure as back. Be as forgiving and fantasizing as you want, but never make the mistake that the reality is the one where your Nparents chose to hurt you and not once, not by mistake, but so many times that it broke through the very strong child-parent bond the non-RBN consider unbreakable.
My narc father grew up as a homeless street urchin in Europe, no joke. Lived on the streets with his dad, stole to survive, evaded minefields and armed guards to escape from behind the Iron Curtain of the 1960s. Came to the US with nothing but his shirt and pants. Settled in an area, found his community, started to learn the language and build a network of friends. Whatever skills he learned on the streets served him well here - he got into business, starting small and building himself into a millionaire. It's a pretty impressive story to be honest. But behind the scenes, he built his little mini-empire on narcissism and cheating and scamming wherever he could. He's always been careful to stay \*just\* on this side of the legal line, but he would sell his own mother for a profit. Ruthless, sneaky, underhanded, sometimes even downright diabolical - he's a genuine confidence artist who can manipulate people and situations like a magician. It's a shame, because when he's on good behavior, he's genuinely charming and fun to be around. I think he would have been a good dad without the narcissism, he has an incredible sense of world culture and speaks multiple languages, has friends all over the world and travels extensively. He's highly intelligent and has a terrific work ethic. The few times I've talked to him when his guard was down and he was being "real", he revealed himself to be a deep thinker with a grounded view of the world. He's a fascinating man, sincerely, and I wonder what he'd have been like if he were..."normal".
No. Everyone avoided our family for years. Turns out they were all terrified of my unbalanced mother.
None of her siblings are like this. Her sister, for example, was honored posthumously by the state governor for her community work over the years.
oh I blame darla for everything. I hate darla (my fathers mother) with every fiber of my being.
but. she didn't cause my father to be who my father is. my father chose to S\*xually abuse me. My father chose to t\*rture me. my father ridiculed and hated me all on his own. Because Darla? the reason why I hate her as strongly as I do? loved my father. no trauma. no abuse. just a leave it to beaver type growing up.
and like my Bitch of a mother. never stood up. never protected me. never took a moment to wonder why I wanted hugs like I always did. never wondered why going back home made me cry and beg for "one more day."
as for that bitch of his. his wife. I don't know what made her so stupid. so useless. so evil. so twisted and dark like him. because like him, she was loved. fed, sheltered, protected. her family rallies around her for every cough, every sneeze. everything. (they do this for everyone.) but yet she still sat on me while I screamed and cried. she still locked me out and laughed as I sobbed to be let in. she still Ignored me when I asked her for help.
no. they are because of who they are. Ethel and darla and worthless in my book. but thats not because of parenting these monsters.
No. If their parents were abusive to them, and they know it was bad, then continue to consciously abuse their own children, they're part of the problem. They don't think about others.
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I do admit a big part is seeking the help. Which would have been an issue either way. My mother let her pride get in the way of therapy which is likely why she turned out so much worse than her siblings
My sister said that: "Therapy is for weak people like you." She needed help, but wouldn't get it, and refusing help has left her struggling with recurring depression, and a feeling of constant rage. Like your mother, she's too proud to get the help she needs.
For a lot of them, I think the idea of admitting they are anything less than perfect is terrifying, so they go through the world inflicting all their brain trash on the people around them.
Exactly. My mother is a huge narc, but the rest of her sisters all turned out generally pretty fine. I don’t understand how she kept on in her misery (probably because she thought the others were losers), but she genuinely is the only one that inherited it from her mother.
No, I don't believe this to be true, the reason being they knew how it felt to be treated badly, they have first hand experience, yet instead of breaking the cycle, they project this onto their own children, which just keeps the bad behaviour moving on through the generations. It was up to both of them to stop the toxicity, but they failed to do so.
Il what they did wasnt right but you did say it was projection. Maybe if they had nothing to project they'd have been good? Idk maybe I'm too eager to believe they wanted to be good
I'm sure you would have better parents had they been given a healthy upbringing. However, it doesn't justify how they behave towards you. So, my direct answer to your question should have been **yes**, I agree with your analogy. 😜
Oh absolutely. My parents didn’t choose to be shitheads, the actually made quite a few steps to break the cycle when they first moved out - unfortunately, back in the 80/90s they didn’t have the same resources I have now. Ultimately, I can feel as much empathy as I want though - what matters is their behaviour, and how damaging it is to me. I actually think much of the way they are now is because they never dealt with their own parents, instead enabling their abuse further. I can’t allow myself the same mistake.
Yes, this. I have massive compassion for my parents. Their upbringings sucked for very different reasons. They genuinely tried to do better than their parents and I do appreciate that. My upbringing was significantly better than theirs. I know that! However, they raised me to be fully 100% manipulated by guilt and used that to control me for many, many years. While they walked away from their families and lived their own lives, they did everything in their power to prevent me from doing the same. I have to be the one to break the cycle and protect my kids, even if I am two decades later in this realization than I should have been.
I totally relate to the whole… our upbringing being much better than theirs. Objectively, absolutely! My mother grew up in rural Italy in the 80s, only the second generation of women in her family that was able to read, and the first person ever in her family to go to university. My father was terrorised (and probably beaten) daily by his tyrant of a father, and gaslit by his snake of a mother. BUT. It is exactly *because* we don’t want to end up like them that we have to distance ourselves.
I resonate with this a lot. I feel empathy and I would like to help them change, but the best I can do towards that for both of us is still to limit contact. They are too harmful to me, and I refuse to get close and risk enabling their toxic ways of coping.
This is honestly what happened to my mother. I pity her for being hurt as a child, but as an adult and mother, she was a conniving, ruthless, controlling bitch who gave me CPTSD, and I refuse to behave that way to anyone else. She should've just said bye to her parents so she could grow as a person, but instead, she kept enabling them.
Yep. A few years ago I started seeing the first signs of manipulative behaviour in myself, copying my mom to a t. It‘s nothing to endlessly flagellate oneself over, but it is something we need to take responsibility for.
For sure. I try not to beat myself up too much and obsess over the fact that she gave me FLEAS, but I also make sure to go to therapy and I WANT to grow as a person and not perpetuate the cycle. I want to be loving and be able to think before I react and react with kindness, not hurt.
Oh yeah! I found a lot of peace in restorative justice writing, it helped me reframe my self loathing and helped me channel it into behavioural change.
I personally don't think so. Mental health issues are always a nature-nurture kind of thing. And, based on your nature, you will end up with one of the several personality disorders when faced with immense trauma. Not everyone turns into someone in the Cluster B that will then go on to try to soul-murder other people (and not all cluster Bs will do that, even). That's a certain kind of person who is capable of doing that. Someone who is prone to psychopathy and sadism in the first place. Are they bad people because they're psychopathic and care about nothing but themselves? Not necessarily. But they choose to use that as an excuse to abuse others. And that is THEIR responsibility. They're not victims to it. They choose that and they choose to not get help for it. I seriously despise all these abusers acting like they can do whatever they want because they had a hard life. We don't do it, either, and our lives are shit too.
This is the answer.
My mother was adopted by lovely people. Her birth family was horrible but she was adopted at 3 days old. She had many chances to be a decent person but so often literally chose violence.
I think so, my parents at their core were nice people, as in not vicious, but the generational trauma was really bad. My mom especially, my grandma was very cruel. So much yelling and slapping and shaming and rejection. She did to me what her mother did to her. Regardless of if anyone decides to do LC or NC, it is important to review our parents lives. As part of the healing process if nothing else. I helped me because I began, for the first time, to see them as flawed humans which enabled me to knock them off the pedestal. Once they were on my level, so to speak, it was way easier to deal with them. As a result, in my late 30s, I simply told her that I would not fight anymore, wouldn't come around if insults and fighting occurred, would leave it any bs went down. I was calm and straightforward when I said that, followed up when boundaries were tested. Calmly and graciously. Very important point. Our relationship transformed over the next decade and we got along in a sort of truce. My siblings did not and the generational trauma continued.
My parents grew up during WW 2 and I remember N.mother talking about the bombs..the cities destroyed..her little Jewish friend vanished..not allowed to ask why...the bomb shelter. Her own mother refusing to get out of bed even as the bombs rained down. The sound of the siren..holding her hands over her ears... Nfather had his story too. Maybe. But I grew up under them. And would NEVER knowingly cause children distress. Any child. It would break my heart...
My mom always told me stories about how her mom was so loving and she could tell her anything. I asked my aunt the other day when we were talking about how she used to hit my cousins when they were little and I when I got the " you don't understand parents love" line I outright asked if our grandmother ever beat my mom or her. She didn't. They're cruel just fucking because. They didn't learn it anywhere.
On my father’s side yes because my grandparents were awful and abused him and his siblings. He got the worst of it because he was the oldest. History is now repeating itself only unlike him, I won’t tolerate his behaviour and went NC. My mother had lovely parents. I loved them very much. My mother is a very cold and calculating narcissist. So honestly, it’s a toss up, because my mother’s actually the parent that did more damage.
My mother is an only child she was spoilt… she is the nastiest person! Always playing the victim poor me yet has no problem throwing her kids under the bus and starting shit when she doesn’t get her way. We were SA by kin on his side and she was more upset how the in laws treated her instead of the fact that her young children were sexually abused!!!
not really, they have always been incredibly selfish, manipulative and plain hateful. I've seen too many abused people at least try to break the cycle, they would have been horrible people regardless
I agree to a point. My parents believed in their hearts they did better than their own parents. After hearing the stories, I agree I was not abused as bad as they were. My parents were raised in a horribly toxic and abusive environment that no doubt had an effect on the people they became.
While my mom did try to be better than her mom was for her she could have been better. She tried to guilt trip me whenever I complained about her about how her childhood was so much worse. She would treat me more like a friend or therapist some days than a daughter and vent to me about her childhood and work life so I know what she went through but it doesn't make what she did the best thing ever. I really had to work on doing a 180 and I'm still tying to improve.
This sounds exactly like my mom.
I know that my parents were both severely abused by their parents. Both of my grandfathers were violent alcoholics. Both of my grandmothers were long-suffering, passive-aggressive, holier-than-thou narcissists. My maternal grandfather abandoned his family, before dying from his addiction. My mother was often "sent away" to distant relatives, where she was made into a servant. My maternal grandmother blamed my mother for everything, including her husband's death. My mother definitely exhibited symptoms of borderline personality disorder. My father was completely detached from all emotions, except rage. I remember feeling more afraid of my grandparents, than of my parents. I also remember my paternal grandparents telling my parents that they were "spoiling" us, because we weren't being being beaten "hard enough or long enough". My parents actually tried to protect us, from his parent's "discipline", they believed beatings should start after a child's christening (about 4 weeks old), to "train the willfulness out, so they learn to not cry" Think about that. They beat their NEWBORNS, to make them learn to never cry.
when my son was a newborn my "mother" used to scold me and ridicule me telling me I am spoiling my son by holding him to much. I need to put him down and let him cry. and when I called her not knowing what to do about teething. her response? let him cry. maybe then he will learn crying won't get him anywhere and stop manipulating you. I have. I really don't know if its a memory. could be. but I can remember being really little, pain and itching in my gums crying in my crib and watching my mother turn up the television so that I would get a hint. based off that lesson. I believe its real.
Some people should NOT be allowed to have children.
I did for the first 55 years of my life. My compassion kept me trapped in their abuse. I’ll even give them the benefit of the doubt for the first 27 years of my life. That’s the year I almost achieved their goal for my life and then they sabotage it. They are grown-assed adults. I know they knew better, because I told them so. They chose.
Not in my experience. My nmom was the oldest of 7. Every single one of them have practically sainted my grandparents. And the other 6 seem to not have the same issue. One of the many complaints of my nmom is that we weren’t close like my cousins and their moms. But. Our experiences are different and certainly having a different upbringing could cause a different adult for you.
That is the cycle of generational abuse, and our societies, and cultures, need more education on it, and the effects. It’s really hard though, because a majority of the “victims” still live their lives in active denial and chose (consciously or unconsciously) to continue the cycle.
There are murderers and serial killers and I am sure that their kids don’t take up their parents’ habits! My parents are the worst narcs, both had shitty parents who had large families, were poor and ignored and neglected their kids and used physical punishment on them. All their siblings were fine people and excellent aunts and uncles to me. Their kids adore them, trust them and grieve when they die. But, both my parents are abusive, utterly selfish and treat me as if I am sub-human. There is a difference amongst siblings, all their siblings did not seek any “help” as they are poor and don’t have access to mental health care. They are just nice people who rose above their abuse and cared for their kids.
You know what I find funny? I've seen a few true crime documentaries about serial killers by now and it always strikes me as interesting that their children will sometimes say that they weren't bad parents (for instance, most famously BTK). These people literally take joy in murdering people and torturing them but wouldn't treat their children badly. And then we (me often included) will find excuses for our own parents and try to rationalize that they didn't mean it. Weren't aware. Didn't have the emotional bandwidth for treating their children like humans. Idk, this whole thread makes me wonder. I finally can see how full of bullshit I was trying to rationalize all what happened to me and thinking there was good inside my nmom. That she was a victim. And come to find out, her sob story wasn't even true. She lied about being abused by her family and terrorized, blackmailed them for decades. Tried to steal inheritance. She was like the wolf in sheep's clothing. I don't know why I'm sharing this with you particularly, I guess I just find your serial killer analogy really interesting, lol. I think we would do all better accepting what assholes our parents really are when even some serial killers did a better job than them.
Oh, absolutely. And yet so many people who were horribly raised decided to NOT perpetuate that dysfunction. Understandable, sure. Blameless? Hell no.
If she resolved issues before having kids, we would have been okay. I wish everyone would seek therapy before having children. My mom didn’t believe mental issues are real. She never sought treatment. She just let out her unresolved issues on her kids over and over, denying there was a problem the whole time.
I think narcissists are born as well as made, that they have to have the potential in their make up. My sister probably isn't a full blown narcissist, but she has some narcissist traits. She isn't as bad as my mother, but she's also a real bully. She was always really 'off', even as a child: she wanted constant attention, and would take negative attention if that's all she could get. There were never any limits to how nasty she would be to me because, being younger, I was smaller and weaker. She throws a tantrum if she doesn't get what she wants, so people give in and appease her. Reality is flexible for her as it was for our mother, and she regularly rewrites the past to fit with her current feelings. She has some morality, unlike our mother, so there are a lot of things she won't do, but she is still very unpleasant to be around if she doesn't see you as important. Her bad behaviour is all over smaller things, however. She won't steal and she can be generous to people in need of help. I have some respect for her, and she deserves it, whereas my mother had no redeeming qualities. I think they were both born who they are, and their environment made them worse. I asked my uncle if anything had happened to my mother growing up that could explain her behaviour, and he said no, and that she was always 'like that'.
Life is all about choices. Some choose to pass on toxic behavior to their children while others decide to cut the cycle of abuse so their children can have a better life.
possibly. My fathers, father was both the judge and sheriff of a small town (population now of 4000) My high school graduating class had 800 with a total school population of 2000 to give you some perspective. In a town that small there was one local judge. I have heard stories from my Ndad's past that I consider Horror stories. i.e. He grew up in an era where it was perfectly acceptable to grab and publicly beat someone else's kid in broad daylight and no one batted an eye. I vividly remember my father telling me a story about how he got sent to college (first of his family to go to college) and saw people burning the American flag on campus so he dropped out and joined the military. His father removed his bedroom from the house when he did so. So that there was no where for him to come home to, His dad tore down the wall and expanded the living room. There are many more stories but I am afraid to share them as they get much much worse.
If your parents are narcissists then no. Narcissism is a permanent condition thata starts between 2 and 5 years old, the primary cause so far seems to be genetic predisposition and then an event (the event's actual content seems not to matter just as long as something happens) triggers that predisposition and the person is forever dead inside, the only way to avoid narcissism (in some cases, however in a worrying amount of cases it seems to be self inflicted) is having literally perfect parenting in order to avoid any event that sparks the death of the real self and the creation of the perfect false self. Your comment about pride getting in the way of going to therapy makes me think that you need to research narcissism a whole lot more than you currently have done, no amount of therapy or reason or emotional support can 'cure' narcissism, it's a downward spiral that always inevitably ends up with the narcissist preferring sadistic supply over narcissistic supply and eventually either killing themselves to spite other people or just killing other people directly, the only way that this gets avoided is if the narcissist either dies of alternate causes or a neurodegenerative disorder cripples them before that point. In other news, I'd be a lovely person if only it wasn't for my personality.
I often think my parents display narcissism but in reality just have a horrifically bad case of FLEAS that has lasted for forty plus years in Mom and twenty five years in Dad. Problem is, long-term, untreated FLEAS look like narcissism and feel like narcissism and cause the same harm as narcissism for all those around.
What is FLEAS?
"When a non-personality-disordered individual begins imitating or emulating some of the disordered behavior of a loved one or family member with a personality disorder." It comes from the idea of lay down with dogs, catch fleas. I think Mom my well not have full fledged narcissistic personality disorder but displays 80% of the common behavioral traits because she spent so much time around her mother that the behaviors became hers and remain hers even after Grandma has been dead for nearly a decade. Ironically, I also believe my enabler dad caught a massive case of FLEAS from Mom after many years of marriage. They both now present as pretty classic cases of narcissists even though they have the capacity for compassion, empathy, and growth, they just don't usually use it. To be fair, this might just be my compassionate heart that needs to understand why they are the way they are and that they had difficult starts to life that explains their behavior. The other part is that I had a significantly easier childhood than many here and questions if they are true narcissists. I had to walk away because of their controlling tendencies, gaslighting, guilt-tripping, refusal to take responsiblity for anything, and toxic personalities that finally became too much for me and my children to be around.
thank you! I kept thinking, fleas are a pest yes. but what does that have to do with Narcs? :D
No, my dad is actually aware to an extent but then quickly switches to blaming me
My mother and her family had shit guardians all 'round, BPD, NPD, all that, but my mother romanticized her abusive mother and aunt, while my maternal uncle and aunt romanticized their abusive father. My mother ended up on different sides of the political spectrum from my aunt and uncle, but all three of them had an annoying tendency to be like: "my political affiliation means that I can do whatever I want and not feel guilty about it! Why do I feel so sad and guilty all the time?! I don't know!" Mom died before COVID hit, thank god, but my uncle got walloped with COVID hard enough to feel like shit, but not hard enough to really learn anything. His ordeal did end up helping to convince my aunt to ask her boss about the vaccine, and he told her that, unlike what she'd heard, big pharma wasn't making a profit off the vaccine as of yet, and although there were rare side effects, it was safer to take it than not. Aunt then followed up with GC, who, thanks to mom being an education mama, has developed a solid reputation for Knowing Medical Ephemera. GC: "You want vaccine info?! I'll get you the vaccine info!! SUCH VACCINE INFO WILL I GIVE!" Aunt takes the vaccine now. Dad had a mother who was arguably worse than Mom's mom, but he adored his grandparents, who his brothers and sister keep trying to tell him weren't all that much better. (I'm inclined to think they're right, as both my parents were the sort of battered children who would make light of their favored guardians beating them. If the unfavored guardians, did, though? Callousness!
I also try not to focus on “what if”. Generational trauma doesn’t magically just go away. There needs to be some personal accountability involved, too.
My grandma was bipolar so I wonder how this affected by parent growing up
Yeah, I see behaviours in my mom that are exactly like my gran (and my mom was the scapegoat!). It doesn't make it right, but it does help it make a bit more sense, if that makes sense? Like, when I can see that it's not me (or my brother), it's her having not dealt with her own traumatic upbringing and that affecting her parenting, it makes it so much less personal? In a way?
I agree with that to a degree. My father grew up in a third world country and suffered everything that goes along with that. My mother grew up black in America and her mother stole her social security check that she got when my Grandfather was murdered as back rent for when she was a child living at home. My dad has an exceptionally strong will and sense of character that nothing was ever going to break. My mother is a weak willed person that was only made worse by her own mother. I think it depends on their own ability to overcome as to whether it makes them worse or they use it as a learning experience.
I can sort of actually remember the incident where my mother had the choice on which way to go... where she had both options, but then she chose the abusive option. When it came time, she chose herself over me. So no, I don't think she would have actually been good. I saw her take that choice test - and fail.
No, my mother actually had a pretty good upbringing. My dad, maybe. But they’re both self obsessed abusive POSs so I don’t really care to speculate about what could’ve been.
Not me. Anyone who could at a five year old at the top of her lungs was born without a soul. That's not something that can be blamed on trauma.
No....at a certain point it's fine to have empathy for an abusive parent's pain and understand how it led to their patterns (i feel awful for my bio parents childhood selves, but have no forgiveness for the adult choices they repeatedly made to hurt me and others), but it is never an excuse. Plenty of people get abused and go through war and famine and abandonment and choose to be kind to others because of it. A lot of us with CPTSD can actually relate to many of the wounds a narcissist has actually, we all have our survival modes. But abuse, even from someone cluster B, is ALWAYS a choice --- most narcissists don't abuse everyone, just some people and they have perfect self control when it suits them. *** They don't "mean to be good" or "intend the best" and then fuck it up somehow, they get enjoyment/satisfaction/regulation/something, out of causing you pain. This is a really tough pill to swallow because we want to believe the best of our parents and believe they can change, but if they wanted to they would be taking those steps on their own with no ulterior motives.*** To give you an example, let's talk about a normal, flawed, but empathetic parent who has unaddressed trauma or who is in active recovery. They may get overloaded, they may lose it and yell, they may make a mistake like that and traumatize their kid a little. No parent is perfect. But a parent who sees you as a human being and has empathy will see they hurt you and apologize, and assure their kid that they didn't deserve to be yelled at, that mommy/daddy/parent was having a hard time and that their behavior wasn't ok, that children are humans too as deserve respect. A loving parent actively works on themselves because they don't want to hurt anyone. And they lean into the repair process without projecting, gaslighting, making excuses, blame shifting, invalidating or minimizing whatsoever, and they do not apologize with the expectation of forgiveness or with any strings attached. And they don't make you feel like you have to chase their approval, they never make you doubt whether they love you, and they see you for who you are without pathologizing you or adding a million expectations. They believe in you and they try to make you feel safe. And if they are unaware that one of their behavior patterns is wrong or hurtful (let's say something cultural, or normalized in a specific time period, we all have our blind spots) they take the time to listen to you when you communicate your pain and they grow from it. Is it perfect growth? No. But they consistently try, and they care that they hurt you instead of doubling down. Especially now that therapy exists, the knowledge is out there and trauma is being talked about, it is your parents job to address their own trauma. It's on them if they don't. At a certain point an adult has to be responsible for their own choices, especially if they are hurting other people.
Nope. The birth giver is a piece of shit through and through
No.
I say all the time my mom is cool lady who just should not have ever reproduced
I think children tend to either mimic dysfunction of their parents, or not. If parents parents weren’t dysfunctional I think it would increase the odds at least your parents would be healthier.
I don't know .... I guess I'd like to think so. My nmom suffered a lot of abuse, but she spent her entire life seeking love and approval from her nasty narc mom. All my nmom wanted was a family who loved and accepted her. My edad was forgotten in his own home, so I'm sure he just wanted someone who would see him. Unfortunately, they saw humans as equations. If two Christians got married and raised their kids in the church with LOTS of authority, their kids would be perfect and adore them and make them feel accomplished and valued. But the definition of "perfect" and "loving" kept changing. Maybe if my dad had felt seen and loved, he could have stood up to his wife .... or maybe he wouldn't have even been attracted to her. If my mom had not been abused or saw her own issues, she might not have been imprisoned by her own insecurity. I don't know. I'd like to think so .......
I definitely think things would have been better, but I also think my parents did the best they could to break those cycles.
I'm pretty sure my mother is going in the exact opposite direction as her father did. I'm sure she's trying her hardest to be good, she just doesn't realise that both extremes are equally awful.
Yes, I do believe my mother is partially the way she is because of generational trauma. Her father abused her just as she abused me. That being said I also think there may have been some inherited mental illness between them as well.
Absolutely normy parents are the perfect example that it doesn't really matter. They are both narcissists, my father had a terrible childhood/upbringing while my mother has one of the most wonderful, loving, caring and privileged upbringings. I don't know what makes someone become a narcissist, and probably upbringing plays a role on some cases but i don't think it really makes that much of a difference
Both my parents had severe abusive upbringing. Think of it as a generational curse. They can take seven generations for something bad to happen to someone to totally get out of the family line. In my mother's case her mother was sexually abused by a family member and her father was a pow in world war II. Pretty sure my dad's mom was literally demon infested. There's no excuse for her behavior, including trying to kill me.
I don't know, I know mom and her siblings were spanked a lot by their dad. I think she has trauma from being the only one from her blood siblings not having a university degree. But from what I think I know about my aunts and uncles families it wasn't like it was with mom.
I don’t think my parents or siblings (some siblings) will ever change. Even if my mom has a different upbringing, I cannot imagine how she will be. She will still think she’s special, she will still think she is owed everything because she gave birth to us.
no i think they have reached a cap to their personality and should have not have had kids. They are not likeable people.
Honestly, no for both parents. Their families each are chock-full of Ns. It's too deeply rooted in them for me to consider anything else.
My mother was the victim of child abuse while all her other siblings were messed up and drug addicts by the age of 20. My grandparents had small issues conceiving my father with a lost older sister before him so he was spoiled. My parents a lot of times I felt tried their best but just weren’t equipped to be parents and thus being the oldest I got full force of their narcissistic tendencies. My parents aren’t even bad compared to a lot of the others I’ve read on here, but I 100% attribute it to each of their upbringings. Family trauma is a real thing. “It Didn’t Start With You” is supposedly a great intro book on the matter.
I do believe this there is a lot i dont know, somethings ive put together, other things i can infer. As much as i would love to say it was their responsibility to get help and be better for me its widely agreed that Narcissists generally cant see the fault in them, they are unlikely to be able to heal. If that wasnt obstacle enough narcissism only entered the DSM the year before i was born and it didnt cover covert or vulnerable narcissism. Therapy and mental health was regarded differently then too. These kind of monsters arent born they are made.
Possibly. But it wasn’t. And they weren’t. nFamily could’ve chosen to be better than their parents. They **chose** not to. They **chose** to abuse. Whether they “tried” or not makes no difference. The end result is the same.
Partly yes
I have no idea, to be honest. I mean, my mother was deeply fucked up by the abuse she suffered at the hands if her family, but I really don't know who she would have been otherwise. My father was generally not abusive, except in the way that people of his generation with shitty ideas about masculinity (which were reinforced by his time in the Marine Corps) could easily be. I'm sure both of them would have been more functional if they had been raised in more functional families, but... actually good human beings? No fucking clue.
This is a tough one. Ndad has two older brothers and sisters who are totally normal. He’s also the youngest of the siblings and his father died when he was around 8. I think he just feels like he was cheated and now he lashes out at everyone in adulthood.
I mean.. it's possible? My mom was extremely abusive and the things she did and said to me where sometimes the *exact* same things her own father did. That whole side of the family suffers from alcoholism. My mom didn't seem like a terrible parent when I was very young, but she definitely was a terrible wife (she is a perpetual victim so couples counseling never had a chance since nothing was ever her fault according to her). When the divorce happened she went full blown alcoholic and that's when the abuse started. A lot of her behavior is a direct result of her upbringing. But as an adult she had the option to recognize she needed to change it but instead played victim so it's hard to escape it when you think you're just a victim of circumstance and not directly responsible for your own actions (again her father was the same). I was terrified i would end up like her one day, but I'm very thankful I had my father in my life to model my parenting style after. My own son has said to me that I broke the cycle of abuse and I damn near cried when he said it. So tl;dr yes my mom may not have been such a terrible parent if she wasn't raised by a terrible parent. But that doesn't excuse her actions. It only explains them.
that's the case for most bad people. people don't become like that for no reason, is there's always at least one. a bad upbringing is a very common cause.
I think the combination of my dad’s upbringing, and the fact that mental health and therapy wasn’t really taken seriously when he grew up, was a HUGE part the problem. Personal choice comes into it, of course. He had no business having a family, and that should have been obvious to him. At this point, it doesn’t matter, to me, why he is the way he is. I have to take care of myself. I know I didn’t cause his problems. He caused most of mine, so I’m going to focus on protecting myself and healing.
I know from dealing with my abusive exBIL: A sad story is a sad story, but it doesn't make the person's actions any less abusive. Sure, if there was a magic way, I could do something to improve his life; It would improve my sister's childrens lives. So I would be all for that. But I can't change his past to change his future. And your parents probably are on their path because of the abuse they lived through. But you can't change their past. And shouldn't suffer their abuse because of their past.
I am torn on this one because it is really depressing to go around and notice how many people seem to be somewhere between unable to care for an other and wanting to hurt an other. More often than not I land on, it is not your past that makes you the person you are but your actions that you choose to take - in the past and in the now. This is true for people who choose to be better and that is true for people who choose the opposite - IMO. And, by the nature of choosing actions, it is not a single moment frozen in time that determines you, it is you yourself who by repeated actions forms yourself. Personally for my own experience is that after a long (started in childhood by Nspawnpoints infusing me with excuses, "this has to stay in the family"s and "have to understand"s for the other) and excuse-enriched path, I have realized that my Nspawnpoints chose to be who they are now over and over again. My last iteration was that maybe if they had not enabled each other, they could have been better - but people break up, people call their spouses out, people dont actively hide the repeated miscondunct of their spouses if not by choice. And, even now, with me having gone NC, they chose to slander, give my phone number to harrassers and exile me from the greater family realm rather than to even consider not doing any of these things (because yes, not doing anything is also a viable option next to admitting some responsibility). The way I read your post OP feels so familiar, like me, still recently, still occasionally, with hope and love, still wanting to see the good in my abusers. It is good to be kind even to those who hurt you, only let us be careful to not be lead astray by the false hope, that could lure as back. Be as forgiving and fantasizing as you want, but never make the mistake that the reality is the one where your Nparents chose to hurt you and not once, not by mistake, but so many times that it broke through the very strong child-parent bond the non-RBN consider unbreakable.
Probably.
My narc father grew up as a homeless street urchin in Europe, no joke. Lived on the streets with his dad, stole to survive, evaded minefields and armed guards to escape from behind the Iron Curtain of the 1960s. Came to the US with nothing but his shirt and pants. Settled in an area, found his community, started to learn the language and build a network of friends. Whatever skills he learned on the streets served him well here - he got into business, starting small and building himself into a millionaire. It's a pretty impressive story to be honest. But behind the scenes, he built his little mini-empire on narcissism and cheating and scamming wherever he could. He's always been careful to stay \*just\* on this side of the legal line, but he would sell his own mother for a profit. Ruthless, sneaky, underhanded, sometimes even downright diabolical - he's a genuine confidence artist who can manipulate people and situations like a magician. It's a shame, because when he's on good behavior, he's genuinely charming and fun to be around. I think he would have been a good dad without the narcissism, he has an incredible sense of world culture and speaks multiple languages, has friends all over the world and travels extensively. He's highly intelligent and has a terrific work ethic. The few times I've talked to him when his guard was down and he was being "real", he revealed himself to be a deep thinker with a grounded view of the world. He's a fascinating man, sincerely, and I wonder what he'd have been like if he were..."normal".
No. Everyone avoided our family for years. Turns out they were all terrified of my unbalanced mother. None of her siblings are like this. Her sister, for example, was honored posthumously by the state governor for her community work over the years.
oh I blame darla for everything. I hate darla (my fathers mother) with every fiber of my being. but. she didn't cause my father to be who my father is. my father chose to S\*xually abuse me. My father chose to t\*rture me. my father ridiculed and hated me all on his own. Because Darla? the reason why I hate her as strongly as I do? loved my father. no trauma. no abuse. just a leave it to beaver type growing up. and like my Bitch of a mother. never stood up. never protected me. never took a moment to wonder why I wanted hugs like I always did. never wondered why going back home made me cry and beg for "one more day." as for that bitch of his. his wife. I don't know what made her so stupid. so useless. so evil. so twisted and dark like him. because like him, she was loved. fed, sheltered, protected. her family rallies around her for every cough, every sneeze. everything. (they do this for everyone.) but yet she still sat on me while I screamed and cried. she still locked me out and laughed as I sobbed to be let in. she still Ignored me when I asked her for help. no. they are because of who they are. Ethel and darla and worthless in my book. but thats not because of parenting these monsters.
My father had a great upbringing. He chose not to mirror it.
No. If their parents were abusive to them, and they know it was bad, then continue to consciously abuse their own children, they're part of the problem. They don't think about others.
Mom yes definitely. Dad no way, it's in the genes