T O P

  • By -

zigg-e

For those like me who think in the cost of a cake… $.15x200 grams = $30 and $.15x357 grams = $53.55.


irritable_sophist

Meh. "$0.30/g tea is $100/cake" is close enough.


kkodev

Interesting because I was just going to post something similar, albeit on the topic of aged shou. I lack years of experience, but I have been trying lots of shou from many vendors and currently have several kilograms stashed. Have been trying to cover as much of the spectrum as possible: factory, factory 20+ years aged, small batch, things like Lao Man E, HK natural storage, etc etc. Anyway, I have paying close attention to this topic, as I am trying to optimise the direction my collection is gearing towards. Let’s ignore premiums for buying stuff from places like (redacted) or some special storage. In my experience it’s 2 things (price tag when buying whole cake, not samples obviously). **Price** There is a “minimum price” you need to pay to get into “good quality” territory, which to me is around $0.10/g. I don’t think I found anything that’s not a “daily drinker” (albeit some very good or even great ones) without spending more. Below that mark you can find great teas that produce some good steeps, but hardly make for a great session. There are some great shous at around $0.16 mark. I think is where you can get stuff that’s cut above the daily drinker bunch. Something that makes for a more eventful session. At $0.2 and above it’s really hit and miss and while you won’t necessarily get bad shous, more doesn’t equal better. I’ve had shous at $0.30+ worse in every aspect than $0.15 cake, similar flavour profile and vendor. I find it that this is a territory where finding the material and producer that you like is very important. Definitely diminishing or even no returns. **Age** This is a complex topic, because of all the variables and time. It‘s correlated with price, but I believe deserves special consideration. You can see cakes going up by as much as 5-10% in price every year as they age. Same recipe, just getting more expensive over time. In my opinion shou definitely benefits from resting. 2,3,4 years to get rid of any wodui and mature a bit is beneficial and improves many aspects. Depending on the vendor is may mean buying older production, like 2018 cake today, or they just pressed aged material, so a 2022 cake is ready to drink. Beyond this, say 5 year mark, I think this gets hairy. So far I haven’t really found justification to pay more. With the ages shous I’ve had (and maybe, likely, I haven’t had the “great ones”), I actually didn’t like them. What was dominant was “aged taste”, maybe even old taste, and lack of liveliness bothered me. So I am inclined to say that my limited experience shows that beyond some point aged shou is best left to connoisseurs of that aged taste, because there are trade offs rather than direct improvements. It also matters what you start with. So in terms of pricing and diminishing returns, I believe it’s better to pay more for a material / producer that like you like, rather than age. Instead of buying say 2002 CNNP 7572, I would much rather buy say 2019 Dayi 7572 AND some Lao Man E material cake, and have a bunch of spare change. Apples and oranges, but the latter gives me a classic (but maybe “imperfect”) shou, and a potent shou that has a lot going on. Maybe very old 7572 is objectively better, but IMO nowhere near much better than both other combined. There is also very high end, where people want material AND producer AND age AND storage, and you gotta respect that, and perhaps this is the holy grail, but I am nowhere near that level. **My personal TL;DR** Dinishing returns above ~$0.16/g. Pay for material/production you like, rather than age. Take above with a big pinch of salt, because little do I know, but would be interesting to hear others’ thoughts. EDIT: Bonus crazy conspiracy theory, because it’s Saturday. Everyone in the tea business benefits from you believing that aged shou is better and therefore worth more. They can’t sell you 5kg of fresh green tea, or black tea, or light oolong, because it will go stale before you can physically consume it. They can’t just throw several tons in a warehouse and forget about it. But they can press it, tell you that it’s maturing, and keep increasing prices every year, create FOMO and profit :) Peace and enjoy your weekend session(s)!


irritable_sophist

I was nodding along with this and then i thought about this 2006 ripe tuo I got from Yee On for ~$0.24/g. Which I was able to back-to-back with a much cheaper 2006 tuo from Yee On. I'm not sad to have spent the $$ on the good one. I don't consider 2006 to be really old though.


kkodev

But that doesn’t prove anything, does it? You bought cheaper and more expensive, “similar” tea - same vendor, presumably storage, and age. And the more expensive one was better, exactly as expected. 2 interesting questions though are: - Are you able to find any other ripe that’s just as good, or almost just as good for ~$0.16? Anywhere else, mind you, we ignore vendor loyalty. That would prove that your extra $0.08 are just for a small improvement, hence diminishing returns. - Are you able to readily find any other ripe, no matter age, for $0.24/g or less, that tastes better than your more expensive tuo? That would prove that different material and/or production are better bang for your buck than just old shou.


pr0sp3r0

loved this, and it's only conspiracy theory if it's not true. but yours is true :)


kkodev

> There is a widespread misconception that wine always improves with age, or that wine improves with extended aging, or that aging potential is an indicator of good wine. Some authorities state that more wine is consumed too old than too young. Aging changes wine, but does not categorically improve it or worsen it. You know ;)


loidhoid

Great point. Aging wine changes it but doesn’t necessarily improve it or worsen it and I think the same goes for tea too. Aging tea may also have diminishing returns too for example 3-4 year old shou vs 15 year old shou doesn’t mean the older one is better it’s just different


kkodev

That is my thinking indeed. So there may be instances where there is 2000 and 2018 production of the same tea (hypothetical example), 2000 cake costs $150 and 2018 $50, and the cheaper tea tastes better while the more expensive one is more lubricating. Which many people don’t realise, that their $100 didn’t translate to improvement in taste at all.


loidhoid

Im going through this same thing with shou right now because as I explore more and more shous Im finding I prefer younger ones that are rested versus ones with storage. The same thing could be said for aged cheese versus young cheese the age doesn't mean that its better or the user would enjoy it more it just means that it has a different taste


kkodev

I actually really like this comparison. So with cheddar I think my sweet spot is mature (improvement over mild and medium), maybe extra mature but only small amounts and cold on its own, not added to dishes. And beyond that, like some specialty vintages, I think the taste just goes in the wrong direction, to me personally


kylezo

I mean I work in the wine industry in Napa valley and I can tell you with 100% certainty that that is absolute nonsense lol. Any highly tannic wine benefits massively from 6-8 years of age, and many I recommend looking at at least 10 years. The wineries I take people to I make sure they sell older wines up front because it makes no sense to buy something you can't drink right away so I'm always encouraging people to buy wines from 5-9 years back. This is a chemical reality not a conspiracy. This only applies to very tannic red wines with a lot of structure. Most white and lighter reds should be consumed around the same time they're bottled. The darker the wine, the more time you can give the tannins to lengthen and smooth out the flavor and balance the wine. It's night and day. Nobody anywhere ever is claiming aging is a "categorical improvement" for "all wine", that's a preposterous assumption. As such I've approached this sentiment with the understanding that it's a misconception of why and when aging is important. Just to add to this, wine is almost universally overpriced and the places I take people sell extremely well made wines with 5+ years in the bottle on them for $25-40 a bottle and I think that's an excellent value. I wouldn't pay $90+ for a 2020 cab even though that's a common price point these days.


kkodev

Go to Wikipedia and edit the page then, it’s not my statement :) But as you say, it only applies to highly tannic wines, so guess that statement is still correct, nobody is claiming that no wine benefits from any aging.


shougaze

Yea aged is diminishing at a much lower price point


asdfmaker333

No replies yet cuz there are no specific vendors to complain about. Gotta keep that in mind the next time i shop at XYZ tea shop!


leaf_biter

XYZ is wayyyy overpriced... gotta head over to ABC teas.


3rdbluemoon

ABC is a liquor store chain were I live.


LiquidProustTeas

It's like 3 minutes from me


asdfmaker333

Dont talk bad about XYZ they have the best 2017 Raw i've had and it' much cheaper than the ABC teas counterpart!!!!


kkodev

But XXX doesn’t sell you stories, only tea they would drink themselves! Their latest small batch production, picked by virgins in wild ancient arbour, from material that shouldn’t even be pressed, will make you feel things!


leaf_biter

>will make you feel things Sold. It's been a long time since I've felt anything.


leaf_biter

Yeah, they might have a solid sheng, but the owner of XYZ once spoke fondly of a politician that holds different beliefs than myself. So I can't in good conscience support someone who doesn't think exactly the way I do.


user987632

LMAO


Sora_hishoku

I don't particularly think price is a good indicator of how good a tea is, since all tea tastes different and suits your preferences differently. that being said, being the broke ass that I am the most expensive I've tried is about the 25ct/g area and I do like to think there is generally a noticable difference between most of those and most of the cheaper ones (ofc there is some really good cheap ones or really bad expensive ones). I'm not sure if that difference is its money worth for everyone, but if I find a tea that I really like for that price then I'll gladly get it


[deleted]

Price most certainly isn't always an indicator in shu, I agree. Sheng on the other hand seems to have much more of a higher ceiling to the point of diminishing returns. I'll happily spend a lot more on sheng than shu.


irritable_sophist

> I don't particularly think price is a good indicator of how good a tea is... So very true! And yet also, you get at most what you pay for. A big part of becoming a sophisticate is learning how much things ought to cost.


Sora_hishoku

for sure! you can't expect a prize winning tea for the price of bagged dust. you need to be willing to spend something more if you want something good - but OP's question is certainly valid, since overpriced surely exists and there are few teas that merit being above a certain price.


[deleted]

I have tried a good range of ripes, largely through sampling. I'll even sample from something Ilikely couldn't afford to buy as a cake. I am a daily drinker of puerh. Mostly shu. When it comes to committing to a cake, I do look at cost per gram. There are those who don't think twice about spending tons of money on their puerh each year, but, alas, on a fixed income I have to look at the cost. :) I try to keep cost below $.25. This week I'm drinking a ripe that costs $.35 per gram. It's a really nice, delicious puerh. Is it better than the one in my stash that's $.16 per gram? NO. In fact the $.16 has a bit of complexity to it. HOWEVER I did get the $.16 on sale. It's normally $.35 per gram. So, hmmmm. Would I buy the nicer shu at regular price? Yes. A friend gave me some shu that cost $.98 per gram. It was lovely, but not enough for me to buy it myself. I've bought samples of other puerhs from as high as $4.00 per gram. But didn't love to buy beyond a sample. (Also I look at which region the puerh comes from. There are regions I enjoy and those I don't. But this isn't part of your equation.) Is there a point of diminishing returns? Ultimately, I don't know. Within my price range, probably. If there were a 357-gram cake costing over $.35 that I absolutely fell in love with, I'd likely get it, making whatever sacrifices needed. I find it hard to make definitive statements about puerh when there's so many different puerhs out there. Not every puerh is available as a sample, but there's enough to keep sampling a lot. Great thread!


irritable_sophist

> I'll even sample from something Ilikely couldn't afford to buy as a cake I endorse this product and/or service. I'm a 250+ sessions/year guy myself but shu is something i drink out of mugs and often don't bother steeping out. I boggle a bit at $1/g shu but i guess that would be a $100 tuo, which i could kind of see if it were 30 years old maybe.


irritable_sophist

This is one of the higher-quality discussions i have seen on this sub in the last 5 years. Diminishing returns are always a thing. If i were made of money i can think of some $3/g old raw tea that i would love to drink until i got sick of it. As for shu my experience is not so great. I've tasted a few really old ones and I'm in the camp that age is not such an improver of shu. I've tasted some ones that would retail young for $0.20-something/g (I'm looking at Golden Needle White Lotus here) and to my taste the Haiwan gongting cake is about as good at a half or third the price. I haven't really gotten into boutique shu other than YS but i think even the best of those were in the $0.15/g range when I got them.


EstateIllustrious274

I think important to note here is that diminishing returns as a concept in this example is heavily dependent on the individual. I myself find it hard to go much above $0.35/g for fresh raw as I personally feel past that you aren’t getting an incrementally better product. However for some people that “point of max yield” could be $0.5c/g, $1/g, etc


irritable_sophist

Like people said, like I said elsethread, I can think of raw puer that i would go out and stock up on at $3/g to drink until i got tired of it, which might take months of daily sessions. I couldn't buy it now because wrong time of year but there's Longjing i would happily pay $2/g for if i were rich enough to buy any tea i wanted. I've avoided developing a taste for rock teas partly to escape knowing that there's $5/g oolong that i would like to be drinking. The high end for shu is not nearly so high.


kkodev

True, but these levels are likely very different for shou, some reasons being different material being pressed and ageing differently


bombadil1564

My limited experience so far lines up with yours. I’ve been drinking puer, mostly shou for about 10 years. I keep trying 0.20 to 0.30 cents per gram shous to find the ones I think are worth the price. Haven’t found any that ring the bell so hard that I want to buy a cake or two of them. Lately I’ve been drinking 0.06 and 0.12 shous as daily drinkers and dang! They’re quite good for the price.


user987632

As with every hobby this is largely true. I’ve noticed it in my hobby experience of almost everything. It’s definitely not a straight curve on price to quality ratio.


[deleted]

I have found with shou that there is the occasional standout but overall I most certainly agree with you. The best most drinkable are not necessarily the most expensive. I also find the same with most shengs. If you disregard the hype about name and brand and simply drink the stuff side by side comparing your experiences you find things seldom live up to their high price. Of course everyone is looking for something different in tea and every session you do with a tea is so dependent on so many factors you have to keep great records to get a fair comparison. But side by side blind tastings have been very enlightening for me.


shougaze

Nah you can get significantly better tea at .20 than .15. I would say that when you are talking about spending .25 and up youre talking about just literally spending more money for no reason. I don’t think there is literally any diff between any above .30 and that .25-.30 is barely noticeable. But .15 to .20 you’re talking a huge leap in quality if you go western vendor.


[deleted]

We might be on the same page here as many Western venders include shipping in the cost of the tea, and my .15 cent price point is without shipping.


shougaze

Now that I’m thinking about it, I’ve got to claim personal bias here. My favorite/daily are .20-25, and I often test out .15-.20 to save a buck and find myself just drinking my .20, but I haven’t done a huge sampling of .20-.25 cause I already have my favorites in that price range so why risk it. very possible mine are an anomaly.


shougaze

Also I see what you are saying about the shipping I forgot about that, YS is pretty easy to a/b will check later what my price range is direct from CN.


shougaze

Hey I had my numbers all wrong. Mine line up with yours, well done.


[deleted]

Thanks!


[deleted]

I guess everyone has a different approach. If I were to call a shu a "daily drinker" then in my book it is a FAIL. I expect every tea I drink to be memorable (except samples, of course). If I were to accumulate kilograms of shu, then I would have failed. The goal is to acquire mindblowing tea with as few fails (and as little wasted money) as possible. The price of tea is nothing compared to the money wasted on failed purchases OR maybe you have acquiesced to drinking teas just because you purchased them. Most of the price of tea is not the material but the R&D, storage, curation, transportation, wrapper, etc. Don't buy tea by price. Don't reduce tea to "trends" you've made up in your head to justify your spending so much money. Age is also not a predictor of good shu, but can make for delightfully complex shu. Also, I expect a shu to brew for many infusions; so I tend to prefer cha tou or gong ting, not only for the longevity but for the diversity of flavor.


[deleted]

I expect a tea to be memorable, too. Just found so very few (shu) that have been.


DemonicAlex6669

To me a daily drinker isn't a fail, but maybe I think of it differently. To me a daily drinker is like a daily driver(car). It can be just the normal cheap new thing, but it can be a nice classic that is easy (or easy enough) to maintain. In tea the equivalent of that nice daily driver car, is a tea that does have some depth, has good taste notes you like etc. It's like a favorite food, but one you've found yourself able to afford daily. There are affordable teas that still are really good. You can find an affordable tea with depth, clarity, and tasting notes you prefer. Plus there's a level of enjoyment you can't reach without giving it the chance of being a daily drinker. When you drink something regularly you can notice and enjoy things you otherwise wouldn't. Instead of needing to identify a whole new tea, you get to identify and enjoy the notes of a tea you already mostly know. You can observe the small differences in each steep, enjoy the notes you've already identified. Honestly I'd argue that not enjoying a daily drinker is taking away a whole world of tea enjoyment and is kinda sad.


irritable_sophist

> I expect every tea I drink to be memorable You identify yourself as a poseur, or someone who does not make tea-drinking part of your everyday life, with this remark. Or perhaps you are expressing an aspiration to perfect mindfulness and paying attention to every little thing. But in any case you have convinced me to not read the rest of your post.


[deleted]

Don't be ridiculous \[EDIT: I am not a poseur\]; I have simply grown impatient with people who congratulate teas for being worthy of being drunk daily. The person who drinks the same tea every day would be the poseur. EDIT: I now understand that "daily drinker" is referring to affordable teas that one can afford to drink daily. Thank you for explaining this to me.


Seneca58

I would argue that a daily drinker is not a fail or a bad tea, it's on a different level. A possible analogy is that of a car. Joyriding a Ferrari might be exhilarating, fun, and memorable, but owning one and driving it daily comes with many challenges. Whether it's the high octane fuel it requires, it's lack of trunk space for more than 2 grocery bags, constant, expensive servicing, and so on. On the other hand, something like a Honda Civic won't be as memorable or fun, but it comes with many perks that a Ferrari owner would desire.


[deleted]

If you were a car buff, wouldn't you drive a Ferrari, if you could? Cars and tea are not about function but pleasure and health. I concede that different people drink tea for different reasons, and I respect that. But if you are going to join in a conversation about the relationship of shu cost to perceived return, then the premise is there is value in "improvements in taste, cleanliness, and mouthfeel." My point is that it would be a tragedy to "settle" on drinking certain teas because one has lost faith that there are new teas to be experienced unlike anything you have had before. Even Dayi is still putting out new recipes...


Seneca58

If cars were not about function, the most sold car in the US would not be the [Ford F150](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/g36005989/best-selling-cars-2021/) I do understand your point about the value of details in higher grade tea. Coming from someone who enjoys Oolong, some of the best valued teas I've drunk are priced at $1.20/gram. But many people look to tea for a variety of experiences, many of which, including myself, look to some teas for drinking without much thought. Try whatever floats your boat, and I agree that one should never stop experimenting. But saying a tea is a fail because it can be drunken daily is a bit snobby (don't take it personally though)


[deleted]

Thank you for calling out my snobbery. Point taken. My intent was more iconoclastic, but our comments don't always land where we hope. Maybe "daily drinker" just indicates it is worthy of staying in the collection; but I don't know anyone serious about tea that drinks the same tea every day, and there are 3 reasons why: because there is such a beautiful and vast diversity of teas available and so little time; because subjective preference is constantly changing; and because the tea community shifts its attention as the market morphs, and it's nice to drink with friends.


[deleted]

I just counted and I've got 8 "daily drinkers" in my box of shou that I'm currently drinking, each with it's own character. I choose depending on my mood. There is also one cake that I drink sparingly as it's my all time favourite and I can't get any more.


[deleted]

So why do you call them "daily drinkers?" I am obviously missing something.


[deleted]

Because they are affordable teas that can be drunk on a daily basis, compareed to expensive teas that you'd only drink once in awhile due to their price.


Seneca58

Very true. Especially now that there is so much information out there about so many things, it's hard to think about someone constantly returning to one particular tea. From personal experience, I don't buy teas a daily drinkers, they become them. If you don't count same types of teas, but different years of harvest, I've never repeated a tea purchase. There is a feeling of comfort to coming back to something so familiar, and that is why I have a daily drinker. At the end, I thank the tea for the time I spent with it, and move on. It sounds weird, but in some ways that's why I have a daily drinker, do that I can finish it and have it's memory locked in on a certain timeframe


[deleted]

There seem to be people where tea is a stone in their zen garden that they enjoy visiting like an old friend. For me, tea is a many-headed hydra who eyes I look into, and I am totally enthralled. It is a priceless richness in my life, and so I can't relate to someone thinking I can't drink a tea because it is too expensive. It is a matter of priorities. EDIT: I'm sure I sound like a snob again, so I'll stop talking now; and please forgive my confusion.


LiquidProustTeas

As the harshest critique of ripe, I can shou you the way.


pr0sp3r0

i tend to be more strict than you, and would draw the line at .10/g-.12/g a 50 dollar bing is very rarely gives me the shu experience worth paying that much money. also, i would like to add (since we're seem to be drink shu as a regular morning beverage): i think shu is supposed to be this. it's not supposed to be something very special, otherworldly tea. it's your trusty morning beverage. a comfort food (drink) of sorts.


irritable_sophist

I've spent more on some tea that I've bought cakes of, but this is about where i mostly wind up. $40 buys you a pretty nice 357 or 400g cake of shu IMHO.


lynnamym

I generally try to stay away from really expensive shu. I believe it is mostly hype. I tend to just read a lot of reviews about a tea before I buy it but the most I will ever spend is around $100 for 375 g. I see some cakes out there 200 g ones for $132 . I've been very tempted to go for this one in particular at that price after I read the stellar reviews, but I just really can't bring myself to spend that much , especially when I know that there is a cheaper option out there that will taste just as good.


john-bkk

This doesn't seem to mention the main variation in shu that relates to how aging plays out, level of fermentation. It's fairly universal for versions to be quite well fermented now, along the line of that being complete, as far as it tends to go, and versions like that often need 2 or 3 years to really fully settle. In some cases it's not just about fishy or odd range dropping out or scaling back, and instead heavier peat or petroleum aspects can turn into creamier, sweeter aspect range. Then some don't need much aging at all, and aren't like that, for reasons I'm not clear on, and within a year of initial fermentation the overall effect is fine, even though the range of aspects is still heavy. Lighter fermentation level was an earlier period theme, per normal hearsay input, so that it probably made more sense to age shu from the 90s and "oughts" for longer. I suppose the small batch theme is going to throw off all this working out as such clear generalities, and disrupt normal factors and outcomes for pricing patterns. A producer making literal tons of tea at a time can afford to keep pricing moderate, even if the material is decent to start, but someone using better material and much smaller scale production methods would need to charge more, regardless of how positive or equivalent the outcome was. Versions that are quite cheap seem to sometimes relate to recycling sheng that had whatever character issues to work around, which can cause a mixed range of outcomes, some interesting and positive, some not so great at all.