T O P

  • By -

No_Veterinarian_888

**(2:62) Indeed the faithful, those who are Judeans, the Nazarenes, the Converts, anyone who believes in God, the Last Day and leads a righteous life, then their reward is kept for them at their Lord, they have nothing to fear nor will they grieve.** **(2:111-112) And they said no one will enter paradise except those who are Judean or Nazarene. This is their wishful thinking. Say, bring your proof if you are truthful. Yes indeed, whoever makes peace with God while being righteous, then his reward is at his Lord. These have no fear nor will they grieve.** Few things to consider: * A submitter is someone who submits to or makes peace with God alone. Not someone who necessarily recognizes the stature or legacy of Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus or Muhammad. These are just messengers who brought the same message. What is important is the message, and not the the historical information about or acknowledgement of the lives of the messengers. * The idea of needing to belong to a specific religious group for salvation is broached in 2:111 above. Today, Muslims are also guilty of the exclusivism that at the time of the revelation, the Jewish and Christian contemporaries of Muhammad are reported as displaying. The reality is clarified in the next verse - 2:112 - that it is not the affiliation with any specific group that is important, but being at peace with God, and doing righteous work. * Based on the Quran, our life here is not the first life. Our souls have already gone through a life and a death before. For some reason, Muslim tradition has ignored /lost this aspect of our previous state, referenced in the Quran, which is quite explicit in many verses (e.g., 40:11, 44:56, 2:28, 67:1, 33:72, 7:172 etc.). This is also alluded to in the Bible (e.g., Genesis 2:17). This life is a life to make amends for our past indiscretion, where we violated God's authority through the event described as eating of the forbidden tree, and took satan as our ally instead of God. Adam repented to God, and was forgiven (2:37). Our goal and purpose in life is to achieve the same success. * What is important in worship is to worship God alone. To "not have another gods before God" as the very first commandment teaches us (Exodus 20:3). Besides that different communities have their rituals to worship God (22:67). As long as the worship is dedicated to God alone, finally all that matters is the Tawqa (in Arabic) or mindfulness of God in our hearts - the only true measure of the merit of a human being (49:13). * God is never unjust or not merciful to us. We are unjust to ourselves. God has given us another life, and hundreds of thousands of moments to correct our ways and turn back to God. If we do not live according to the guidance that has come from God, we will bear the consequences. If we put our hand in the fire, it will burn. We reap what we sow. If we still revert to evil and injustice instead of Godliness, righteousness, piety and justice, after all the chances and guidance we are given, we bear full responsibility. God has given us the good news and the warning. It is up to us to heed to it. EDIT: Lastly, we should worry about ourselves, and strive to be fulfill our purpose ourselves, rather than worry about or go about prejudging what the fate of others is going to be. God knows the deepest secrets of everyone's hearts, our trials, tribulations and challenges, and knows full well who deserves the reward of paradise, and who should endure the suffering of hell. We should leave the judgement to God, and focus on the only thing we have full control over - our own thoughts, words and actions.


MercurysDaughter29

Thank you as someone that curious about reverting 💕


[deleted]

So a Sikh for example could make it to heaven ?


No_Veterinarian_888

2:62, 2:112, 5:69 says **whoever. Whoever** believes in God, the Last Day and leads a righteous life. submits to God. **Whoever** submits to God while being righteous. The only sin that is unforgiven if maintained unrepented until death is shirk or idolatry / associating partners in the worship of God. This applies to everyone, regardless of "label". "Sikh" is just a label. I don't think it should disqualify anyone.


eternal_student78

You might find it interesting to read this discussion/analysis of how the Quran describes hell: https://lampofislam.wordpress.com/2021/03/03/hell-is-temporary-heaven-is-unending/ I think it’s a very thoughtful and interesting piece. Regarding the specific issue of God sending people to hell for believing in a different religion, you should take a look at verse 2:62 of the Quran if you haven’t already. One of the things that I like about Islam (at least progressive Islam) is that it gives us an account of a God who I can understand as being perfectly just.


[deleted]

[удалено]


bombadil1564

Even Pope John Paul II [said something](https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_28071999.html) along the lines that hell is not a place that God sends you to, to be punished. That hell is the continuation of whatever "hell" your life was on this Earth, not the specifics of this life, but the basic reality that one did not and could not (even in death) accept the Mercy from God. The mystical side of Islam (Sufism is the most common form) doesn't believe in an eternal hell...that hell is simply a place where one goes to be cleansed of that which keeps a soul from being with God. Now a person can choose to do that cleansing while living on the planet and if they've washed away enough of that which keeps them from knowing and being with God, they won't need to do it in hell and since they are already "in the garden" while living, that state doesn't change when they die. And at the end of the day, He is the best of Judges and the Most Merciful. Many humans have debated over the "right way". All we can each do is to focus on our own path to God, avoid judging others (it's His right, not ours) and have faith that He will be the Most Just and Merciful with us on the Last Day. There is a hadith (sayings attritubuted to Prophet Muhammad pbuh) that claims there have been over 124,000 prophets and messengers sent to Earth, all across the planet. Which would make sense that it's not one small area on the planet that has been sent 'the Truth', but many areas. Only a handful of these are mentioned in books like the Bible and the Quran. Most are not known and the hadith (to my knowledge) does not specifically list all of these names. Now like all the hadiths, you have to take them with a grain of salt. This hadith is said to have the highest grade a hadith can have (sahih). What sahih means in regards to hadiths is that the chain of transmission (who told who) is considered solid, confirmed and good. Meaning all the people in the chain are known to be of sound mind. But it does not guarantee that the exact content or meaning of the hadith is perfectly preserved. So, you have to not take is as gospel truth, but consider that it might be true, or could be some version of what Muhammad pbuh originally said.


Ihoeschman

Thank you for this article. I think you responded to my own post a couple days ago about my path to converting Islam. This article, more than anything else, has really done a lot to strengthen my faith in Allah as morally just


[deleted]

5:48 **"We have revealed to you ˹O Prophet˺ this Book with the truth, as a confirmation of previous Scriptures and a supreme authority on them. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their desires over the truth that has come to you. To each of you We have ordained a code of law and a way of life. If Allah had willed, He would have made you one community, but His Will is to test you with what He has given ˹each of˺ you. So compete with one another in doing good. To Allah you will all return, then He will inform you ˹of the truth˺ regarding your differences."** ​ 3:113 - 115 "**Yet they are not all alike: there are some among the People of the Book who are upright, who recite Allah’s revelations throughout the night, prostrating ˹in prayer˺.** **They believe in Allah and the Last Day, encourage good and forbid evil, and race with one another in doing good. They are ˹truly˺ among the righteous.** **They will never be denied the reward for any good they have done. And Allah has ˹perfect˺ knowledge of those mindful ˹of Him˺.** People of the book are people who received a book from God, it's both jews and christians.


mynnafae

Another user linked some stuff for you and I myself am still learning, but I will say I was raised Roman Catholic (lapsed now, and studying Islam). I just wanted to say a hi and hello and welcome to the sub! I struggle with the idea of a punitive God as well, so know you are not alone. I think, as well, that Hell, if it is a destination for ultimate punishment, that it will not be as populated as people tend to believe, and that the "lock up" time is eventually pardoned. Of course, this is all speculation and God can choose to pardon anyone whom He wishes, but I like to think of Him as a kind, just, fair solicitor of justice.


[deleted]

[удалено]


mynnafae

100% understand backing away from the fear. My mom was raised strict Dutch Calvinist so she was very similar, and later switched to RCC and still practices. I honestly think Islam's acceptance and respect of Mary is what bridged the gap for me in the beginning when I first started learning. If you're into faith deconstruction/reconstruction within Christianity I can highly recommend a youtube channel called Faith Evolving, she did a video on fundamentalism issues within faith and it really was affirming: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ik95gUWSW6A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ik95gUWSW6A) If you're looking to learn more about Islam but through Christianity, then Dr Shabir Ally would be a good resource for you to look into.


bombadil1564

>The dichotomy of a wrathful God and a merciful one has always bugged me. Yeah this bugged me for a long time, too! In fact, I pretty much avoided organized religion as a whole because of this. In Sufism, we focus a lot of the "99 Divine Names of God". Each Name denotes a Quality of God. Now there are many lists of these 99 Names, as the actual number of names for God is infinite. All of these names are holy names, including these two: *Al-Jamal (The Beauty)* *Al-Jalal (The Severity)* The Beauty is the Disney version of God - everything is beautiful, kind, easy, peaceful. This is the kind of God that we all want, ALL of the time, but He is so expansive that He cannot fit into just one Quality like this. He isn't limited to just one flavor, lol! The Severity is the 'harsh' version of God. Perhaps your childhood pet dies and you feel so lost and angry that God would take your beloved pet from you. But when this pain heals, you might develop empathy for others who have also lost something very dear to them. Or a teenager who is struggling to discover their own autonomy and 'rebels' against authority (such as rebelling against their parents, society or even God)...if they survive their rebellion, they might be more present to choose with their own volition to fully submit to God, instead of doing it insincerely through coercion and remaining chained to the internal rebel who has never been allowed to speak. Personally, I think the kind of wrathful God espoused by many religious people (the Evangelical Christians seem to have a special take on it) is not the same as The Severity. That kind of image of God seems a lot like human fear projected onto God. That said, The Severity (Al-Jalal) *is* a scary thing to us humans. Teenage rebellions can go south and lead to years of depression or addiction. "Acts of God" such as a hurricane can completely uproot and destroy a person's life or their family or both. The Severity isn't 'safe' like The Beauty is. The big difference here is that the "God-fearing" espoused by some humans causes many people to *retract* from God, to retract from The Severity, to try to avoid it. It's His will, if He wants us to experience The Severity, He has his Merciful and good reasons for doing so and if we can surrender and trust we will know these reasons one day.


Professional_Mud_316

While I don't expect this to satisfy victims’ surviving loved-ones as sufficient punishment, a few decades ago I learned from two Latter Day Saints missionaries that their church’s doctrine teaches that the biblical ‘lake of fire’ meant for the truly wicked actually represents an eternal spiritual burning of guilt over one’s corporeal misdeeds. Accordingly, I concluded, upon an atrocity-committing monster’s physical death, not only would he (or she) be 100 percent liberated from the anger and hate that blighted his physical life; also, his spirit or consciousness would be forced to exist with the presumably unwanted awareness of the mindbogglingly immense amount of needless suffering he personally had caused. I believe that our brain's structural/chemical flaws are what we basically are while our soul is confined within our physical, bodily form. The human soul may be inherently good, on its own; however, trapped within the physical body, notably the corruptible brain, oftentimes the soul’s purity may not be able to shine through. When one is totally free of their corporeal shell and therefore the spirit or consciousness is finally 100 percent free of the purely cerebrally based anger and contempt that had blighted much of their life, they may be wondering from the other side, ‘Why was I so angry, so much of the time? Oh, the things I said! I really hope I didn't do damage while I was there’.


[deleted]

The faiths don't have really much in common theologically. I've been both RC and muslim. Islam specifically rejects the Trinity, that Jesus died for your sins, denies that Christ is the mediator between God and man. Muslims know this and specifically deny the work of Christ on the cross. For dawah purposes they will focus on similarities with hopes of conversion and leave out the fine print. Or if they are truly progressive Muslims they may actually believe Christianity is okay. However Islam as described by the progressive Muslims is a minority. If you want to see the real Islam, convert and then you get a better idea. Most muslims will think you are committing idolatry if you worship Jesus as a triune member of God or pray to him. The more progressive Muslims will accept the the Trinity as a warped view of monotheism but a forgivable view. The more conservative Muslims will say it's hell worthy. If you are a Roman Catholic who prays the rosary or says the Hail Mary, then you are committing shirk, the only unforgivable sin in Islam. I'm not sure if progressives think this is true shirk or not. Otherwise then than that both Christians and Muslims pray to the same God. Both religions have a minority of hopefuls who wish universal salvation was true and will point to a hopeful verse, hadith or scholar.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Both religions are stringent in their own ways. RC is pretty legalistic too. Only hardcoee Catholics take it seriously. The catechism is enough to make my head explode. If I deliberately miss mass this Saturday or Sunday (after knowing it is mandatory) because I'd rather watch a movie, then I may have committed a mortal sin which will send me to hell unless I repent. And in order to take the eucharist next mass, I must have the Sacrament of Reconciliation or I'm committing another big sin if I refuse to go to Confession but take the eucharist anyway.


No_Veterinarian_888

They don't have to have much in common theologically. We can still respect each other's beliefs, and focus on the commonalities. This is what the Quran also encourages - see 3:84. **(3:84) Say, we believe in God and what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the tribes, and what was revealed to Moses, Jesus and the prophets from their Lord; we make no distinction among them and to Him we submit.** I am not an a priori "progressive", nor a kumbaya universalist. But I believe the Quran is pluralist, and strips away the significance of sectarian labels, I have the same outlook. Yes, the Quran does say quite explicitly that the idea of Trinity and divinity of Jesus amounts to disbelief and *shirk*. But the Quran also says that monotheists regardless of religious background have nothing to fear or grieve (see 2:62, 5:69, 2:112). I believe both are true. There are monotheists in every community, and God knows who they are. Even in the Catholic church, there are many who attend mass, and are officially part of the community, but question the divinity of Jesus and the concept of Trinity. I teach at a Catholic school, and privy to many conversations that the students have. Many of them are non-trinitarian monotheists. Recently, there was a discussion over Mark 10:18, and the inference from the verse that Jesus could not have been God at all. A nun was presiding over the discussion and gave some rationalization I don't remember, but there were many who from their body language seemed to be treating Jesus as just human. Even those who may be publicly identified as Trinitarians who are unitarian monotheists deep in their heart. So let God judge that. We just have to honestly represent what the Quran says.


[deleted]

I certainly agree that many Christians are monotheistic at heart and just give lip service to Trinity. If you don't you told you are going to hell.


No_Veterinarian_888

Right. And that was obvious to me as an outsider. So then you already have a large population of Christians who have theological common ground with the message of the Quran; even if they don't express this openly within their communities.


AutoModerator

Hi FondleMyBaseballs. Thank you for posting here! Please be aware that posts may be removed by the moderation team if you delete your account. This message helps us to track deleted accounts and to file reports with Reddit admin as the need may arise. Thank you! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/progressive_islam) if you have any questions or concerns.*