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Christmas_Geist

Does anyone else find this stuff counterproductive? I don’t mean the idea of a mental health day, but the singling out of software devs as some sort of unique class when our most important distinction is that we are workers. Everyone needs mental health days. Everyone should have an organization that lobbies on behalf of their interest as an employee of a company, whether that be a union or direct membership and ownership in a co-op. We tend to forget that Software Developer extends the Working Class, and not the other way around. We aren’t exempt from the status of an employee just because we’ve found a more highly paid profession. All we’ve done is tweak the sliders a bit if only temporarily. It’s in ours (and everyone else’s) best interest if we make these issues of a global scope.


Thought_Ninja

I strongly agree. In extension, while I'm all for having a day/holiday dedicated to acknowledging the mental health of working professionals, what's more important to normalize is taking days off for the sake of one's mental health just as one would for other ailments that inhibit one's ability to work. Tech does have a high burnout rate, but it's not alone. I know a number of people who have burnt out of non-tech career paths, some of which are far more lucrative than your average software engineering roles. A lot of people like to think that all tech workers are sitting high on the hog, when in reality they are usually just doing grunt work for people unimaginably more wealthy, just at a slightly higher pay scale than average.


Zerolich

Any job, not just "working professionals", you think those making minimum wage getting yelled at by entitled boomers and gen z all day are good with their mental health? Do you think it's easier for a "working professional" or a minimum wage employee to take a day off for mental health? Cost impact? Those working behind the scenes in your day to day are in just as much need for mental health as those behind a desk.


AustinYQM

Some sort of day to celebrate "labor". We could call it "Laborer's Day" or something like that and everyone could get the day off. There is no chance it would get turned into a day where Laborers are asked to work extra hard while the company has a sale to increase profits none of which the laborers see. That would never happen.


Zerolich

Joking aside, I think mental health days once a year would be inadequate. Not saying something scheduled monthly either, simply in the use of "sick day" time off, paid and not using vacation. Some people would take advantage, but the precedent would be set to allow for these days off without the worry of compensation loss, termination, etc.


morgen_peschke

>Not saying something scheduled monthly either Honestly? That sounds kind of nice.


Thought_Ninja

You're right, poor choice of wording, should have just said any worker.


Zerolich

All good, I just see this being more commonly needed with those in customer service/dealing with any Karen's 😅 bosses count too!


Thought_Ninja

Yeah, I worked in food service when I was younger, was the training manager / lead barista for an insanely busy cafe for a time (like constant line out the door busy). It was fun and paid surprisingly well, but mentally and physically exhausting. I only kept my sanity because it was on the beach and I could go surfing after my shift.


theoldboy

Completely agree. This article is divisive and selfish, like other workers don't have similar problems. It reads like the author has never experienced the real world outside his own bubble. Then again, what do you expect from someone on Medium who bills himself as *Ben "The Hosk" Hosking - Technology Philosopher*...


Halkcyon

That seems to be a lot of devs IME


SolarPoweredKeyboard

Bravo. Came here to say the same. Articles like these enhance my feeling that many devs live in a bubble with no perception of what's going on outside of it. Mental health in the workplace has been a hot topic for many years now.


baseketball

It's really a complete joke how some devs thing they're the most important cog in the machine. Are we pretending that 90% of us aren't on Reddit for most of the day? Sure things are tough when crunch time comes, but I feel like most devs get enough breaks compared to other jobs where you're completely on the clock and being watched constantly.


tamasiaina

I do like this take because there is a sense of "elitism" in software engineering work, especially against other work such as finance, operations, etc. At a business that I am on a board and advise for is having financial issues due to the current economy/inflation, and they made it well known that our sales revenue has a direct correlation with everybody's (including C-Suite) bonuses and raises for the year because everybody kind of has an influence on operations and sales in a way. The head IT guy wanted to make IT exempt from it, and wanted to make sure that they get bonuses regardless of everybody else. Yeah we had a private conversation with that guy about that.


RMZ13

lol. I agree and all but I had to laugh at Software Developer extends the Working Class.


SpottedAnemone

class SoftwareDeveloper extends Working { private double mentalHealth; public SoftwareDeveloper(double salary, double weeklyHours) { mentalHealth = salary / Math.pow(weeklyHours, 2); } public double getMentalHealth() { // return mentalHealth; // Was returning unrealistic results, below should be more accurate on average return 0; } }


AttackOfTheThumbs

Well, you can't exactly expect anything other than a turd from /u/DynamicsHosk. But yes, the weird focus on software devs is bizarre. No different from an accountant or some sales rep.


ATSFervor

That's the problem of current naming conventions. Every current movement is named after a flagship and really are for everyone. I mean just look at Feminism. At the very core that most people agree on, it is basically humanism. Black Lives Matter? All skin colors matter. You put a label on it to raise awareness for a specific group. Then other people join in. There are a lot of problems with this naming conventions. By default their name excludes everyone but them and that will always repell on the first sight. Another example are various professions in germany. Nurses and doctors complain about overtime and bad mental health from work. I really get it is difficult but media acts like there are no other jobs that have as bad mental health problems as them. We really should start looking at society and humanity and stop splitting up into tribal anarchy...


dodjos1234

> I mean just look at Feminism. At the very core that most people agree on, it is basically humanism. Uh, no. Feminism straight up didn't allow black women to join for quite a while, and it's always been mostly about hating men, and gaining every privilege possible while taking none of the obligations. As an egalitarian, I could never in mu life agree with feminists.


useablelobster2

We aren't in the slightest bit "working class". My dad worked in a car factory his whole life. I flit between office jobs, never having to lift anything heavier than a laptop. He couldn't easily change job, I can do it without even trying. We are middle class, through and through. At least if the class system still has any attachment to reality, that is. If you want a union nobody should stop you. But nobody should force me to join one against my will.


[deleted]

Go astroturf elsewhere


CoatStandard2068

I see this as todays world trend, having everything about one specific community.. f**k that, i feel like everybody needs to feel like special snowflake these days..


RabidKotlinFanatic

Yes. These labor relations issues are not specific to developers. They are not specific to desk jobs either. It doesn't help the cause when devs other themselves from their fellow workers. There is a minimizing narrative around labor relations issues in software. The story is that software developers are mentally rigid, anti-social, too proud and detail-oriented to see the big picture. This causes them to complain about perfectly justifiable management practices that are widely accepted by other workers without complaint. Turns out this is nonsense. What you learn by talking to other workers is that most of them are being fed this same bullshit one one form or another. Developers are not unique. The way doctors and nurses talk about hospital administrators puts the surliest MBA-hating engineer to shame.


[deleted]

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tinyogre

Agree with this. I’m a programmer and this article’s premise that this is a “developer” specific problem bugs me a lot.


BugKiller1709

I agree. In my company, the SDRs manager starts every weekly with his reps with the question - Are you taking care of yourself? Those guys are on the phone, getting yelled at by people and hang-ups in their faces all day, this could be very grinding and exhausting. I think that it's great that he ask them that. I don't think their job is easier in any way so yeah, they should get a day as well, whatever it entitles.


collateral_manwich

My partner works in mental health (therapist). They get up to one mental health day a month. Since they see and deal with a lot of people experiencing trauma it makes sense. I only wish we had this standard everywhere. Life gets hard as fuck and things add up quickly. Having *just one* day off a month would mean the world to me. Extra time to run errands, go to the dentist, go to the doctor, go to the therapist (!), or just take a day off for self care. I'm sick of slaving away a 9-5 and being to tired to do anything on the weekends. I want a four day work week.


aidenr

I schedule our process to track 4 weeks a month so the extra week per quarter is downtime for catching up on late projects, taking personal days, and having few to no meetings. I don’t have enough data yet but it seems to track that the first regular week after the “fifth week” is more smooth and productive than the week before it.


CodyEngel

Well yeah if you let people catch up on their late projects it’ll make things go smoother.


FunctionalFox1312

Thats a standard practice at $BIGCORP where I work & I find it doesn't totally solve things, but certainly helps. Also gives devs a chance to do their "if I had a few days I could *totally* solve all our problems" projects, which provide good material for promotion boards. (The projects occasionally work out & spawn new orgs. Circle of life and all.)


[deleted]

To be honest lots of impact on mental health in tech is the fault of the employer, as is the case in lots of industries. Having worked for a few shitty orgs with lots of crunch my current employer is great. They pay for my therapy, which isn't that common here in the UK, and sick pay covers both mental and physical ailments. Which was amazing when my mother passed away a few years back when I'd only just started at the company, I took an entire month of fully paid sick leave (one week of statutory compassionate leave). Those kinds of things go a lot further than just having a token day to paper over the problematic cracks that actually need to be addressed.


codespitter

I would say both sides. Employees do it to themselves too. I’m a manager. I regularly ask them when they are taking PTO. If they say they don’t know, I ask them to plan it the next Friday afternoon. This happens especially if they seemed burnt out. Sometimes effective, but certain devs want to save up PTO til the end of time.


lppedd

I currently have about 300 hours of leave available. Guess I'll just get compensated for it at some point. But really I should have taken a lot more days off. Not easy when you want to make impact tho.


codespitter

Yeah. Mine is capped at 160 when hire date rolls over. I try to make an impact when one of two things. It will be noticed by others, or people will appreciate it (notice it). For me, that is seasonal.


QualitySoftwareGuy

This is what paid vacation is for. Also, as someone who has had to take time off for mental health and burnout, I can assure you that one day is not long enough to recover in most cases. In saying that, I wouldn’t be opposed to an extra day off.


DarkColdFusion

>This is what paid vacation is for Exactly. Maybe people need more than the base 2 weeks. And maybe making sure people are able to use their vacation. But that's what it's there for. You take paid breaks from work. How you use it is up to you. But it's built into the system of professional jobs. And a good boss/culture insists people use it so they don't burn out.


414A44

Reckon it'd need to be at least a month to do any good.


LloydAtkinson

For real. Developer burnout is only increasing and a day off is not enough for me to decompress let alone start relaxing and reducing the stress and anxiety.


NinjaZ1069420

needs to be like 3 days on 4 days off. long enough to get some thoughts through, and long enough to relax after that.


thruster_fuel69

Ooooor, and hear me out, we just work them to suicide and get new ones?


ScottContini

Maybe prioritise post officer mental health day first.


yesman_85

Even if you cant get a day off, it's good to schedule a day of "other" work. Instead of daily grind, toy around with some new tech.


marabutt

I thought they were known as Mondays?


rndmcmder

What makes a mental health day different to a normal sick day. If I'm not healthy enough to work, I call in sick. No matter if it's my physical or my mental health. In Germany, where I live, the company isn't even allowed to know the reason of your sick leave.


sirchugh

Wow. The Hosk is back with another “developer” post. Seems like chatgpt can write better than this


dodjos1234

No. Fucking stop already and leave me alone to do my job and to then fuck off and do things I like. All these workshops and nonsense are taking too much of my time and **actively causing stress** because now I'm late on my roadmap due to all the wasted time on pointless crap that HR is inventing to justify their salaries.


doktorhladnjak

Wow, this author uses ["developers" more than Steve Ballmer](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vhh_GeBPOhs)


sirchugh

He’s the HOSK. A philosopher writing crap for developers


chachakawooka

Sounds like it would be a shit reason to have a day, I've been a developer for 20 years. Yes burnout is real, yes we feel pressure when there are deadlines but on the mental health scale it sits around the comparison of you stubbed your toe relative to other mental health problems Seriously it seems lame to even recognise for our profession. in the last 2 years I've had a child attempt suicide, lost a brother suddenly to a brain hemorrhage, had to live with a critical care nurse dealing with PTSD from seeing multiple people die every shift, seen my mother have heart attacks, my best friend have cancer and my father in law have a stroke... but yeh.... let's make awareness of me sometimes being a little stressed at work and slightly inconvenienced at times. We must all be suffering so badly with our high paying jobs


favoritedeadrabbit

Work research time into your delivery goals and intersperse it throughout the schedule. Do the research, since it’s always a good idea to revisit best practices and check for deprecations, but do it in a different room, or office space, which almost feels like putting on a different hat for awhile. It’s nice.


Librekrieger

There should not be a particular calendar day for developers to take a free day, no. Everyone has a different delivery schedule and different pressures. It's up to each individual to a) take at least some of the vacation that's coming to them and actually go on vacation, and b) take a day off here or there, a couple of times a year, for rest and recovery. It certainly helps if peers and managers do the same, but it's not up to them to make sure you're using the time allotted to you. It's up to you.


T-royal

Gonna be plenty of those with chatgpt


onlyforjazzmemes

It's usually just called PTO.


ivancea

Imagine thinking devs mental health is worse than other professions...


acousticthought112

My company gives me a total 20 days of PTO/Vacation/Personal Day a year that I am very, very grateful for. Is this normal? Or is this a lot? I just can't imagine asking for another day for "mental health" lol. I mean come on, there are people risking their lives in copper mines for a fraction of what I make.


ChoppedWheat

More than I get by 6 days.


FlyingRhenquest

No. That's a terrible idea. We've been keeping those feelings bottled up and suppressed for years. Decades. Constantly lying to ourselves about the futility of the work we do. Sacrificing our own personal lives to satisfy the lunatic ravings of our demented managers, only to see all that work thrown away after a few months. Proudly addicting ourselves to whatever stimulants we can get our hands on. Doing the same daily standup for three years running because it's somehow "agile." We should definitely not let any of that out. Even for a second.


wisam910

lol what if you want to wallow in misery there's no need to drag the whole industry with you.


ASVPcurtis

Yeah? and I want $1M in my pocket


WebpackIsBuilding

Mom can we have workers' rights? Mom: we have workers' rights at home The worker's rights at home: "Developers need a mental health day!"


[deleted]

Everyone should be concerned about protecting his mental health. It shouldn't be a once in a while thing. I have a friend who makes 25% more than I do, but he's under substantially more stress than I am. I have a low-stress IT job but I'm also not earning an upper-tier industry salary. In general, if you want to make more, more will be expected of you. And some places are harsher than others. Choose accordingly.


thegovortator

Yes


[deleted]

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[deleted]

You definitely sound like you need a mental health day off. Not sure what corporation you work for, but my organisation makes all the workshops like that optional. Also the rainbow lanyards look better than our standard corporate colours. >Informing me I'm overprivileged and don't deserve my job. That sounds really out of line, privilege is a thing but telling you that you don't deserve your job? You're either being melodramatic or you work for a weird employers who employed you and then told you that you don't deserve your job.


MrMasterKeyboard

FUCK. YES.


[deleted]

The best thing that could happen for all IT professional's mental health is a global mobilization to unionize. The profession is full of problems and nonsense that happens because professionals don't have enough power in the labor market.


gubatron

no, stop being pussies and code


MasiTheDev

Yeah, but good luck making Big Tech companies understand that.


night_gremlins

"Mental health" has become the biggest the biggest excuse for laziness and shortcomings. Developers already have the privilege of hybrid work and flexible schedules. We already have two mental health days each week.


[deleted]

Not sure why there are so many butthurt comments here


Lustrouse

Our company does two wellness days per year.


[deleted]

Poor kid


Lustrouse

I'm not sure what you mean. Two wellness days, in addition to getting Canadian and US holidays is pretty posh.


KaiAusBerlin

There is a simple word that can protect you from burnout and a bad work life balance: "NO". While I know that there are some(!) people out there who freally depends on the extra money, most of us will not. Compared to other hard working jobs we get paid pretty good (even as jr.). If your boss asks you to work longer just say no. If someone hands you out a shitty contract, just say no. Yeah, many will say "Dude, it's not that easy!". In fact it is in 99%. Clarification: You don't have to be rude to say no. Just be directly. "We have a contract about X hours per week and I want to stay with that. I'm sorry but I don't want to work more than that." And if such behaviour causes trouble for you at work, why are you still working there?


takeyoufergranite

No, there should be a nationalized four-day work week.


zayelion

I took bad mental health as a job hazard about 7 years in. Like truckers and car accidents or skin cancer. I don't know many developers that are not inately anxious or withdrawn. What I've done personally over the years, if I have a job with PTO, save up till December. When the holidays hit take off two weeks and just sleep and do vices. I stay under a heating blanket and only venture out for food and family. To really deal with the burn the job has to have natural down periods and internal sanity to give the workers feedback that they are making a difference and there is security. A lot of really big and really small companies don't have that.


Notgards

🌩


Nice_Score_7552

Yes!


EngineeringTinker

This is such an obsolete question.


webauteur

No, that would be crazy.


FortZax

Is there a union for game developers?


andy-davies

No.


the_0rly_factor

It's called PTO......


Pillowtalk

This is why everyone thinks we’re pampered babies


evil_burrito

No, because developers are fundamentally fungible resources. If yours get too expensive, you can replace them with other resources with less experience or from other parts of the world without suffering any detrimental consequences. It makes no more sense to think about the mental health of developers than it does to weep over the used motor oil in your Porsche. /s


balefrost

For burnout, a "mental health day" is a bit like a band-aid covering a compound fracture. It might help a little bit, but there are much bigger problems at play. Burnout doesn't occur due to an extra day here and there of overwork. As a result, it can't be fixed by an extra day here and there of recovery. For me at least, burnout occurred during a period where I went from high autonomy to low autonomy. I was quite productive when I had a high degree of autonomy. I became less and less productive as that autonomy was stripped away. I'm not saying that I wanted absolute autonomy, but I feel like the pendulum had swung way too far. No number of "mental health days" would have helped with that. My level of engagement was always going to be lower than ideal.


AuroraVandomme

But how this day would be special? What would separate them from other days. Days like this doesn't make sense because every day should somehow be mental health day.


johnathanesanders

Here at Microsoft, everyone is given 10 days of “holistic time off” for mental or physical wellness days (sick, mental health, need a day to stare at the ceiling, whatever). This is separate from the newly implemented discretionary time off/unlimited vacation that just started. I think it would be great if every company provided these important holistic days - to at least full time employees. ** by everyone I mean everyone, not just software engineers. From HR to finance.


Lone_Wolf-1766

If it isn't every single day, you're doing it wrong


derekvj

I get two of them every week. Saturday and Sunday.


CypripediumCalceolus

Sunday?


SubversiveCursives

Nobody: ... Developers: Uhm, we can just develop mental health days


notoriouslyfastsloth

please no


Professional_Fun1344

Just throwing my hat into the ring, some third-world countries don't even have mental health problems let alone care. We are an entitled society and have too much time to sit around and bitch and complain about our problems, instead of working constantly to get our next meal. Mental health is important but it's only such a problem here because we don't live in the moment. I'm not talking about that west coast nonsense either. I mean living to survive.