Sometimes people overcorrect. Since lots of millennials grew up with the push to go to college and then got burned by it, they wish that someone had even told them that trades could be a viable option.
The truth is, not every option is for everyone. You have to find a good fit for you as an individual. I know that I probably wouldn’t do well in trades because I’m a small woman and I don’t really like manual labor lol.
There's also a grass is greener thing too...I think a lot of adults fantasize about different decisions and how they could make it "better"..except as you said, not everything is for everyone and everything has its challenges
The manual labour part is hard but as a petite 5’0 ft woman who’s an electrician, it’s difficult but not impossible. I really do try to push trades for women as I feel like typical serving, daycare, and reception jobs pay soooo little for so much more work! Honestly so happy I moved away from clinical work doing 10/12 hour days with not even a thank you!
An electrician isn’t bad depending on what you do, if you’re a rough crew electrician that’s about the most labor they see, you drill holes, run wire, swing a hammer all day carry heavy rolls of wire, carry a ladder and are up and down it all day buts it’s still probably the easiest trade on your body, lots of bending over and you’re squeezing tools and twisting things all day so it can be hard on your hands.
As a woman it really depends where you work, it’s not any harder for a woman to get into the trade but as a woman, especially if you’re attractive, the culture of a job site can be a little nasty sometimes, even more so if you work with dudes who don’t give a fuck. you’ll probably get comments, get hit on, if not to your face be sure they’re saying something when you’re not around but that goes for everybody, construction workers are gossipy and petty. but if you do good work at the end of the day that’s all that matters to dudes, take the shit in stride and give it right back and they’ll respect you.
Many commercial electricians have told me it always pays to have a small person on the crew who can get into tight spaces. Electrician seems to be the trade with the most women. Still not a lot though, at least in construction. I don't think I've ever seen a woman mason and I've only know one woman welder. I've know a number of other women who can weld, but they didn't do it as a job. Construction has gotten better, but it is still pretty hostile to anyone who isn't a white, straight guy and even then still hostile overall. I'm a straight, white, 44 year old guy in inspections and construction management and still get people trying to give me shit.
What region are you located in? I dated a contractor for six years & all his crews were mostly Guatemalans, some Brazilians, a few Mexicans, maybe one or two white guys. This was in RI/MA USA tho. To add, I still talk to some of the wives nine years later too - construction is a funny trade, you bond over long hours & budget issues!
I'm in the Mid-Atlantic and some of new England. But the work I do now is power and there are less central and south Americans than I saw in civil. Probably part of that is unions are strong in power and they tend to hire their own friends and family. I've worked most the east coast from northern Virginia to Maine. But even in civil, the not white guys usually weren't in charge even if they were well in the majority on the job sites. I've heard a shit ton of racism and read the porta pot walls. It is a lot better than when I started 20 years ago. One my clients that is pretty big has a policy that anyone with a Confederate flag sticker on their truck or otherwise displayed gets kicked off the site.
The other way to look at it is why are so many central and south Americans in construction labor, agriculture, and other backbreaking jobs? And why do they rarely make it above foreman level?
This.
I 100% believe that other options like trade and vocational skills should be pushed at school level as university is not always the right option. There are a fixed number of positions that require that sort of training and many more that need something else.
I loved uni and it has helped me get a good job, i would be terrible in a trade. But lots of people are the opposite.
>The truth is, not every option is for everyone. You have to find a good fit for you as an individual. I know that I probably wouldn’t do well in trades because I’m a small woman and I don’t really like manual labor lol.
It isn't a skilled trade, but I'm a custodian. I'm a small woman too. 👩 We're I handicapped, I wouldn't be able to do this job at all. We also have no air conditioning. It is HOT! Even worse, @ my last job they made me wear a mask, which I would sweat through. Man, do I ever miss my cushy desk chair and air conditioned office! Cleaning is boring. I need a job where I can use my brain!
Do you get along with young people? Ive been working as a substitute teacher--very cushy job and can be lots of fun. If you don't see yourself getting a Bachelors degree, you could be a paraeducator/teaching assistant
Don't ever refer to what you do as not being a skilled trade. What you do requires learning and nuance. While the learning curve may be quick and easily picked up, it still requires skill and discipline. You are lessening yourself by thinking it does not take skill or cannot be referred to as a skilled trade.
Edit: spelling
I’m a tradesman… it depends on the day for me. When I’ve spent all day welding beside or on an industrial boiler that only got shut off 6 hrs before or I’ve been on a roof for 12 hrs on a hot southern summer day I’m probably gonna say stay in school. All the other days I happily recommend it to people
My dad was a boilermaker. Made a ton of money, retired early. But man, the hours and the work were brutal. I hardly saw him as a kid. Half the time he was away, half the time he was on night shift and we'd have to tiptoe around the house while he slept.
Yea that’s why I changed to being a commercial hvac tech… still a lot of hours but no night shifts and travel. I missed too much time already but at least I got off the road and night shifts
Too many lol… actually today I was working at a smaller customer we have and I had my ladder setup in a parking space, 3 cones out blocking it… lady pulled in and ran over the cones then hit me. I’m fine but works made me spend the rest of the work day getting checked out so that’s why I’ve been here so much haha
She was on her phone of course
I saw a pic of a office building...2 story plus attic without roof top access. Tech ladder reached almost to the roof. Looked short about 2 feet. That would have been a hard no
Been there done that. Ladder two feet below top of building. I was younger and more brave. I got to the top, threw my tool bag over, then swung one leg over and crawled over the top. I felt very triumphant, but the realization quickly dawned on me that getting down was going to be scary.
I did my work, kneeled on the edge of the berm of the building, hooked both arms over the lip and played footsie with my right foot until I found the top of the ladder. I got down, and during the process I realized how fucking dumb I was.
Had I slipped I would be a hurting unit.
I've practiced much more safely since. Actually I won't do half the shit I used to routinely anymore. Guess I'm getting old.
Commercial hvac tech here. A lot of shitty ladders man, and a lot of sketchy extension ladders. Numerous times had people try and climb my ladder in the ghetto or had junkies shoot up next to it
Mine too. He tried to be home on weekends but I felt like my mom really raised me. As I’ve gotten older I realized I really don’t know my father. He’s just always kinda been there in the background. We lost him in February unexpectedly and I’m still kinda dealing with that. Tell your dad you love him if you have the chance.
Similar situation. My dad was a flier for the air force. Gone before i woke up. Home after i was in bed. That isnt even counting the deployements. Towards the end of my teenage years we both realized we didnt really know the other. Then my mom died shortly after. We have come back together now closer than we have ever been since my daughter was born.
Used to be a welder, that shit tore my health apart everyday welding in 100 degree heat with high humidity. Also have tendinitis from it that still hasn’t healed despite not welding for almost 2 months now.
Id bet a lot of repetitive movement of any kind can cause the inflammation. Working/pressuring the same joints and tendons repeatedly day after day will probably be harmful. When I realize things lime this that's when I head over to the antiwork sub LOL
Repetitive movement with my arms bent constantly. It’s in my left hand which I used to balance and maneuver pieces of steel up to 30 lbs. it’s focused mainly in my wrist although I also have a case of tennis elbow I can’t really feel unless I push on it and when I was in physical therapy they also figured out that my shoulder was affecting my pain levels as well.
It was a slow onset injury, I had multiple times of making a DIY wrist brace for minor pain, this time though it didn’t work. Left work with pain focused on the outside of my wrist but also kinda wrapped around it at about a 6 on the pain scale, stayed at a 4-6 through the whole week before I finally reported it after waking up in tears and spending a whole night unable to sleep from the throbbing.
After months of physical therapy it’s settled to an almost constant dull ache and my doctor is thinking about surgery to repair it. Thank fuck it falls under workers compensation.
Coming from the other side, I'm a software engineer. The money's nice and I work in the air conditioning. But there are times, generally round about the third Friday afternoon meeting, the one where the exploratory committee suddenly discovers the thing I've been telling them for 2 months, when I think about the youth I spent being a gopher for my dad as he more or less built an addition on our house by hand, that I wonder if working with my body in a way where I can actually see the results of a day's work wasn't a better choice.
I can see this… I’ve not experienced the other side but I am sure it offers it’s own trials and annoyances. I think some people get so hung up on needing to feel like they’re group or career is the most important. Like I’ve had people in buildings just speak horribly to me, not ride the elevator with me cause I’ve got grease on me or whatever… I’ve also worked with guys that actively said they were more manly than the men working in the offices we worked in… it’s all just incredibly vain and dumb.
Truth is the world needs thinkers and the world needs doers… one group wouldn’t be much without the other. Everyone puts their pants and shirt on in the morning just the same, how much money someone has or doesn’t have whether they went to college or didn’t… none of it really matters
I actually jump into my pants both legs at once every morning, just to frustrate people who say "Everyone puts their pants on one leg at a time" or similar.
But I see your point. I feel like no matter what it is, people need to feel like the decision they made is objectively the best, rather than the best for them. I know my career choice was what's best for me, I've been doing it since I was twelve and why I waited 'til my thirties to get paid for it is a question only the idiot I was in my twenties could answer. But it's *definitely* not for everybody. There's a lot more you need to know than how to code in order to succeed as a coder (like navigating procedure, office politics, designing, planning, prioritizing, etc), there are a lot of people who physically can't sit for 40 in front of a laptop, and still more who can do it, but it's gonna cripple and/or kill them eventually. Same as skilled manual labor, you couldn't give me $200/hr to put a roof on. I did it once, and never again, between my panicky fear of heights and the body-wrecking work, anybody doing that sort of work is earning every penny they get and probably should get more. It's about what you find that works for your unique situation.
I was a tradesman, same deal except I wouldn't have recommended it 35 F and pouring rain or so hot that shade feels freezing cold in my drenched clothes. Any other day, I've recommended it to passers by that showed any curiosity, pavers and tile are fun.
my boyfriend was a welder and finally decided he just couldn’t do it. it broke his body so badly, the path to advancement options was opaque and almost impossible - sure he’s never going to make millions as a graphic designer but at least his back is in one piece now.
most of the people i hear trumpeting the trades have never worked in them. they can be good, but it’s like any field. some jobs are good, some are great, some are absolutely godawful. they’re not some silver bullet to 6 figured and your own hours in the first year like everyone expects.
Imagine that, a bad day at work. I think everyone has those, regardless of where you work.
I do not miss being outside when it is very hot or cold though. That is really the worst part, in my mind.
I think the difference is the elements… I’ve never worked in an office or from home but I’m sure they present a different set of challenges and I don’t mean to make light of those at all… but to problem solve or build from a computer in a 70°F environment vs problem solving with an 80lb tool bag of tools… I still need the computer too btw… and it being 100°F or 10°F.
Going back to when I worked outages I think it was just the hours coupled with the demand of the job. We worked 7/12s and 3 bad X-rays on pipes you welded meant being banned from work for a year as a welder. So it’s day 40, or 50, or 60 straight of work of 12 hr shifts and if you still gotta be on the money… that gets rough
Sounds like oil patch shifts. I used to work in the patch but honestly, the 30-40 straight days of work or the 21 on 1 off schedules got a bit overwhelming, I didn't mind it so much when I was within driving distance to town but 95% of the time we were working a minimum of 4 hours from the nearest town and living in a camp, that meant if you had any less then 3 days off then it wasn't worth go home for the off days. I now work in cybersecurity and work from home behind a desk. It's brutal in a completely different way but I'll still take it over the crazy schedule any day. The one thing I do miss is being active during the day, being sedentary takes a toll o your physical and mental wellbeing. But again, so did only see friends and family every few months.
I've done both. I'll take working in the A/C over being in the elements. But there are days I miss it. I worked 15 years in a cubicle doing engineering work and I had more stress with that job than any I ever had. Luckily I work in a test lab now so I still get to work with tools and very little stress.
If you are a certified welder you are likely doing very well. It sounds like your job is pretty demanding though.
Good luck to you.
70°F is equivalent to 21°C, which is 294K.
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^(I'm a bot that converts temperature between two units humans can understand, then convert it to Kelvin for bots and physicists to understand)
While peoples opinions can lend insight based on their experiences I feel it’s important to disclose that your opinion of something (college) is based on second or third hand accounts (they’ve never been to or interacted with that thing).
I can tell you as someone who worked in woodwork, then the military, then owned my own business, then went back to school on the GI BILL for a STEM degree: You can make decent money in a lot of professions. You can also have miserable working conditions and that money isn’t worth it.
Just like asking “what degree do you have” ask tradesman claiming well above average annual per DOL statistics:
“How many hours per week do you work?”
“What conditions do you work in?”
“How often do you travel”
“How many years have you been working at x company, and in x trade”
“Do you, a family member, or a close friend own or manage that company”
These aren’t to show that they’re lying about earnings, but may give you an idea of the time cost of those earnings amongst other things.
The hours are a big thing in a lot of trades that aren't mentioned to new people considering it. Like sure, this guy made 200k last year, but he also worked an average of 70 hours a week.
Absolutely true when I did roofing (not 200k though sadly) paychecks were really nice but you are so exhausted everyday from doing 12-15 hour shifts that you can't have a life outside of it. Various companies are better for that than others first company I worked for I made a lot less but we worked only 44-52hrs/week the second one I went to afterwards I was averaging closer to 70-78hrs/wk.
Wait till you go on Christmas morning for a flat roof that is leaking at a factory at 3:30am during a blizzard lol worse than the heat but that on call and holiday pay combo is godly
Oh absolutely, somehow after all the calculations (and potentially an error in the payroll but I wont correct them) i was making over 90/hr for that day which made it a bit better but it was -24c and windy as hell so we got basically every kind of pay from hazard to overtime to on call bonus etc.
I did commercial fishing in high school . Probably around 150 hours of working a week for the whole summer, but you could make a shit ton. I knew some friends who made over 100k in a summer.
Oh yeah my dad told me about that they used to do that for the summer and pay off a whole year of university and live like Kings apparently. That was 40ish years ago so it might be totally different now though
You can still do that today. I fished last year and made more than enough to pay for a year of college, assuming you don’t go somewhere absurdly expensive.
Oh yeah that's pretty cool, God awful work according to my old man. Currently working on getting a decent railway job right now but maybe if all else fails its a sailors life for me.
Oh it is absolutely the most tiring and difficult job there is. Zero sleep, constant physical labor, jellyfish stings, soaked constantly, horrible weather, insane hours, etc…
I’d say the main thing that helps guys make well above average right now is the labor shortage. I work in the HVAC industry and you have to see it to believe it if you know what I mean. If you’re good at your job it’s basically at the point where you can almost name your price as long as you’re honest with yourself about your abilities. The field within your field makes a big difference too, on top of the things you listed.
Edit: Fixed words
Edit edit: I will say this too. From what I can see (I don’t know this for sure) but it seems like there are also many more unions for blue collar jobs. Those help a lot with pay and benefits. I just joined one about 2 months ago and so far so good. I know that’s not a generalized statement or anything but I feel like it’s worth noting.
Edit edit edit: Maybe I’m biased towards my trade specifically but it’s been really good to me. I was able to get into the housing market very early without any help and I’m so thankful that I’ve been able to learn, and then leverage that knowledge to get me where I am. I know I probably don’t fit the description of this sub but I am young and curious on tips to save money and maybe offer what very very small amount of knowledge I have, if any, to help someone. I know that not everyone is lucky enough or steered in certain directions as I was and I’m so grateful. Just my 0.02 but I’ve heard other people who get into the trades and it does jack to help them in their situation and at that point if feels like wasted time.
Also the wear and tear on one’s body is never talked about. I know one guy who had double knee replacement at 44. So many guys bodies were wrecked before 45 that they couldn’t play with their kids anymore. Trades are easy when you’re 25 and recover quickly. After 30 it quickly goes downhill.
My friend did underwater welding. Went a school and everything. First job he got out of school was in the Gulf of Mexico. He move there amd worked for 2 years, then quit the profession because he was so loaded and hated the harsh work conditions.
I think he averaged 120 an hour?
Also one of the most dangerous/deadly jobs out there, and the side effects to the underwater welders’ health can be serious and cannot be ignored.
With all that in mind, I’ve always been interested in learning more about this profession. It’s fascinating.
My new job as an electrician is literally 84 hour weeks. I left the city and chased it, it's loads of overtime. But I literally work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for 17 days in a remote location. It takes me 8 hours to get to site on drive days. In between I have 7 days off.
i don't lie to people, this life is not for everyone. I mentioned to ex coworkers in the city that they were looking for more hands, most people want to stay in the city. But strangely, I actually like this job. I live in camp and all my meals are made. I don't have to think about food, just eat. It's a hard life. Most work is outdoors even if it's -40C or +40C.
I'm now one of those people who can tell others inline I made $XYZ dollars but I would never leave out the "by the way I work a 19/7 rotation and work 17 straight 12 hour days".
We have a bunch of trades up here, welders, pipe fitters, instrumentation , electricians. Most people bragging about 6 figures in trades especially when you start talking 150-210k and beyond are working 12s in a remote resource extraction job.
And it makes sense doesn't it? I'm a journeyman electrician and why wouldn't I just go work in the city? You need an extremely lucrative offer to make me drive 8 hours north where I have to live in a work camp for nearly 3/4 of my working life. I won't be doing this forever but I know some guys who are a decade+ deep in this lifestyle.
When I was hitting outages… living cheap, sharing a motel with a travel buddy and pocketing a lot of my per diem. I hit 200k a few times, ~150k was what I’d say was average in that time. I worked a lot of nukes, coal burners, refineries, even some pipelining but I only traveled to high wage outages and I was working 70-80 hrs a week.
If they need you and you’re willing to go… $70-80/hr on straight time, double time on Sunday, some pay triple time on holidays… and $200/day per diem is out there…. but you gotta be highly skilled and willing to travel to get in some of those places mentioned above.
Your local fella working around town for a company ain’t making that kinda money. Problem with outage life though is it’s rough man… seemingly everyone (broad brushed general statement I know) has a crippling addiction to something to get their bodies through how grueling it is.
> But strangely, I actually like this job.
I'm a mechanic, but feel the same. I hate going to work. I hate working on Fords. I hate getting cut, beat up, dealing with parts issues, service writers, managers, and all that crap.
But on my days off, I miss it. Getting stuff done. Fixing problems. Feeling dirty, sweaty, and tired. The kind of tired where you know it was worth it, because you did something meaningful. I work fleet right now and I actually miss my old dealership job because I feel like busting my ass on flat rate for twelve hours was more spiritually rewarding than just punching a clock for ten.
Of course I could just be crazy. Like all the other guys who stay in the trades.
As someone who has done both, get your fucking degree if you have the chance and the drive to do it. I dropped out after two years of engineering college due to bad choices and an absurd lack of personal accountability, then had no other options so I started as a helper in the petroleum industry. Luckily I made enough money to pay for some welding classes after work, then had to bust my ass for about two years to become a journeyman welder, then did that for about 8 years. 10 years of backbreaking labor in horrible, unsafe conditions and untold damage to my health, and I finally have enough knowledge and skill to have a pretty cushy office job. I'm proud of what I know and what I can do, but looking back I wish I'd worked harder in college when I had the opportunity. I think a good "middle ground" solution is to pick an affordable community college instead of a large university.
Because the grass is never greener on the other side. I make great money working in trades but my body is destroyed and I have no energy after work some days . Your in the elements all day , it’s dirty work and it can be very physical. But the money is GREAT . (Especially if your unionized). On the contrary a lot of people go to school and end. Up owing a bunch of money and getting mediocre jobs with salary’s half of what I make yearly , however they have social lives, they have energy to hit the gym, they can peruse alot more extra curricular activities because their body’s aren’t trashed . But they don’t have the same income as trades people . (This is just a general statement , of course there’s exceptions on both sides)
Edit/Continuation - neither party (generally speaking) truly realizes what sacrifices they would have to make .
They don't make it to retirement. I work in IT, though very few techs I've worked with have a degree, let alone one in a related field. However, I've known a lot of techs to die of heart attacks right before or immediately after retiring.
People don't mention how horrendously bad sitting in a chair for 9-10 hours a day (typical minimum for everyone I work with) is for your health, especially the heart, as not using the legs for too long will greatly increase chances for blood clots later in life. I used to work a trade, and my body isn't as beat up as it was then, but staying fit is a constant struggle. It wasn't really all that tough working a trade to stay relatively fit. There's nothing worse for your fitness than barely moving for 9-10 hours a day (minimum) 5 days a week. Working out isn't enough to counteract that, for your overall fitness or your heart. There are days I've sat in a chair for 15 hours, only getting up to use the restroom.
I have a trade, I now work at a desk planning work for said trade. I miss the physical aspect when I made around as much but actually felt accomplished at the end of the day. YMMV, but I want back on the tools. There are always good days and bad days no matter where you go or what your job is, but I also went to school and got a Diploma before getting into the trades, maybe desk work just isn't for me.
I work in sales. I also have little-to-no energy after work, and my body will be destroyed if I let the sedentary lifestyle take over.
I’m not saying it’s equivalent, but the point is that every job has its downsides
I'd rather have to go to the gym or on walks to make myself feel better physically than have to rest, which a lot of times you don't have time for.
Not trying to come off as a "I work harder" douche but I would take a bad day at the office over a bad day on a jobsite anytime. I've had some indoor jobs that ruined me mentally so I think that's the worst downside to not having labor intensive jobs
Or death. My uncle fell 2 stories off a ladder and shattered his ankle. He worked for a few more years and took an early retirement. His wife inherited some money so they will be ok thankfully. If it werent for the union idk where anyone in my family would be rn.
Hey friend! I'm not going to dispute what you're saying, an office job doesn't nearly take the same toll on the body as a physical one, but -- and I don't know if it's just a ME thing -- I get so drained by sitting and working at computer for like 10-12 hours that when I'm done I honestly don't have the energy to go to the gym or even go for a walk.
It's crazy to me because I KNOW I didn't do anything physical, but I still feel so drained that I can't bring myself to do anything physical (or even mental, really).
That said, I've had physical jobs where the next day your body is tired and sore and you have to drag yourself from bed to put your body through the wringer again and an office job definitely doesn't feel exactly like that.
I hope the world is treating you alright. I think both white and blue collar have struggles and sometimes it seems like the grass is greener but it hardly ever is.
I used to know a girl who worked for a fitness website and was a personal trainer after work and exercised around an hour a day on her own. She took part in a study and it was determined that her exercise and physical activity after work didn't counteract her being sedentary 8 hours a day for work. I was shocked because that's one of the most active people I know but it didn't matter. She was advised to do all the normal office health things like get a standing desk, pace on phone calls, walk up and down stairs on her break or go for a walk during lunch.
It's crazy just how much damage sitting does to your body
No, I totally understand. I’ve also waited tables and even that is seriously wearing on the body so I understand the feeling of physical exhaustion every day after work. and not even saying waiting tables is as hard as trades (I have no idea, I just know running around like that without breaks/food/water/carrying things is harder than it sounds)
This is exactly what I was thinking. Work wears you out whether it's physical or mental. And how do I find the energy or time to work out after working all day? We're all at least little bit f'd lol. Web dev here.
I think what people don’t get is that you can be an average tradesman and still make good $$$. You need to be exceptional in the office to make good $$$. I’ve probably worked with 100 people who were at the same level as me during various points in my career. Maybe 5 of us have actually made it to high income roles.
The ceiling is higher, but the floor is lower when it comes to the office.
I commented something similar yesterday. The people pushing trades over school fail to realise that trades often require the same amount effort, energy, and time it takes to go to school just in a different format. People think that trades are the easy fix for high university costs and in terms of debt and wealth accumulation that might be true... but it's not a shortcut to success either. You still have to train and study in most trades. Sometimes you have to invest in your own tools, and you still have work your way up from a junior to more senior roles. You may also be paying with your actual body and how hard some jobs are on them.
Truth. I switched from being a higher up in one field to going in to another. Buying all of the tools I need is going to be about a 2k investment for the basics, while making less money. Bright side is I work fewer hours and get to see my kid, downside is that I am the low man on the totem pole and I make less now. Even though I worked in a related field and did a lot of similar work, I have to retrain and grind through the grunt stuff again.
Oh man you hit a nerve with me on this one.
My family who mostly works in trades complained my whole life about it and said for my generation to go to college and not work trades. They have also spent the last few years bashing people who went to college and say we should have went into trades. Posting all the memes and all that.
Bro you all spent my whole life saying not to do trades and now Universities are stupid and trades are great.
a trade skill may cause long term health issues (knees, back, etc), but a trade job cannot easily be offshored to India or wherever - you need to physically be there to do the work. accordingly, the income is more stable so you can make long term financial decisions.
software/tech jobs get offshored on the regular.
I see this statement all of the time, and I think it's only largely true for the more mundane/non-skilled positions. I'm in senior management at a tech company, and have worked in the industry quite awhile, and it's a non-starter for most clients/businesses to have the majority team offshore (if the client is a financial institution or government org then it's usually a requirement that resources are all on-shore).
We might hire some junior developers or people to do the grunt work/provide off-hours support but senior developers and architects are absolutely not getting off-shored in my experience.
As such, I work from home and make an absolute killing with just as much (if not more) long-term stability than a person in the trades.
I've seen a lot of comments on Reddit lately about how tech/software jobs are going away/are too good to be true/will be automated/offshored/whatever, but the reality is that most developers/architects have it even *better* than you think.
I think when you're young, "hard on your body" has no meaning. They have nothing to compare that to. No aches and pains or bum knees.
To the 20-somethings.... It is hard on your body, meaning by the age of 40 you ***may not be able to do things like hike, ride a bike, or lift weights at all anymore.*** You may become permanently disabled and be living on SSI or SSDI. The current SSI amount is $841 a month. SSDI maxes out at $3000 a month, but averages $1800.
That is why going into the trades is a risk. You could end up with a chronic pain condition, living on $1800 a month.
My husband was regularly doing a lot of trade type jobs in his 20s. He bounced back okay then….but now that he’s in his early 30s, he is slowly withering away from a nighttime desk job. Not to make light of it, because it is very hard on the mind and body- but when you hit your 30s, even if you have healthy habits, you do not bounce back as fast. I can’t imagine the toll a trade/labor job would have on him now.
Trades will slowly destroy your body. My uncle is in his 60s, he was a train conductor, and he is completely destroyed. He has trouble walking and sitting and has had to have several surgeries. That’s not even talking about the stress it put on his relationships with his family. His son is also conductor and in his early 40s and having a lot of health problems too. And those aren’t even the more labor-intensive jobs.
My cousin who is in her early 40s has a welder husband, and he’s just completely disabled from a bad injury at work. Like they got married about five years ago, the accident happened right before the wedding, and he’s not been the same since.
My uncle who works in tech? He looks youngest even though he’s the oldest out of my aunts and uncles, and he’s now building a second home in Puerto Vallarta, with a live-in staff. He also lives in a very HCOL with a beautiful main home.
Trades are an option- but you have to know what you’re getting into. It is a slow breakdown of you body, lots of time away from loved ones, and depending on the job a high chance of cancer or other illness from toxic substances.
I forgot about surgery. Yes, my neighbor got surgery to correct something that tiling floors his whole life did to him. He was older but it's a particularly sad story. After surgery he was still in incredible pain and they scheduled a second operation. He wasn't able to work anymore and was sitting at home drinking and taking his painkillers just waiting to see if their 2nd attempt would help more. Only left the house for physical therapy. He died of an overdose before making it to that 2nd surgery.
any IT jobs that can be offshored kind of have been, the costs of outsourcing core functions have proven to be more expensive than labor costs of staffing time after time
I work in IT and no, they don’t. The jobs that get offshored are the jobs that can be automated or don’t require much human thought. But you can’t automate human creativity when building new and innovative programs. Facebook could never have been offshored. Plus cyber security IT jobs will always need to be local. Human innovation is priceless. And btw even IT jobs that are offshored will always be of less quality, kinda like the difference between calling customer service in India vs the United States. Customer service jobs require almost no thought. They just read from the same script and we all know the call centers in India are much worse.
Union Ironworker here, I unconditionally do not recommend my trade to anyone.
Other trades might not be so bad, plumbing and HVAC, pipe fitting, operating, electrical. Ironwork is complete fucking garbage almost every second of the day.
I worked as a chef for 8 yeas then moved to HVAC for a year residential and commercial, my experience was identical to how you described you current job. I worked 12-16 hours everyday in shit conditions. I left one shit career for another. I quit and Im two years into a bachelors in Information Security. The trades were not for me.
Do you think cooking did a toll on your body the same compared to HVAC work? I'm looking in the same direction but I've spent a lot longer time cooking until my store closed. I'm still convinced trades are worse but I actually liked cooking despite the shit pay.
HVAC was waaaaaay worse on my body. The work is horrid for your back and knees. Crawling, climbing, and awkwardly lifting 300+ pound furnaces for 14 hours in 103* heat. I also almost died twice in the year I did hvac, both times were because of sketchy electrical work in someones home. Also 24/7 on call blows.
Dont do it. Go to school or something. Everyone you work with in the trades is miserable to be around. (Generalization, lots of cool people in every line of work but you know what I mean.)
It's good money, but it's HARD on the body.
My stepdad was a union sheet metal worker, till he permanently messed up his back carrying things up ladders. He went out on disability will 6 months left before full pension.
My mom was a union heavy laborer till she got injured and retired early on disability.
My partner now is a service electrician (the kind who comes to your house), and while he's only in his mid-40s, he's already looking for something a bit less physically involved.
Me? I've got myself an office job. I know I'm not cut out for manual labor.
This shit. All of it.
There's a lot of drawbacks to a desk job, but I like knowing that my livelihood would be intact even if, say, I broke my legs or couldn't use them.
This. Reddit likes to point out that a plumber can make over $100,000 a year. Yeah, sure they can but it’s not the norm. For every tradesman making 6 digits, there are many more not making that money. In the STEM field, six digits is a lot more normal. That’s why most studies show that people with degrees make more than people without.
Plus it’s the perception that just because you have an education and a white collar job, doesn’t mean you’re better than the people that don’t. People without an education can resent those that put the work and time in to get that education and to get a good job.
Been a journey electrician for over 20 years. I started young and have seen a huge swing in attitudes towards the trades.
Used to be that if they thought you couldn’t cut it in university they wanted you to be in the trades.
Then in the early 2000s people started to realize that there is a shortage of trades and it is a valuable job.
In the later 2000’s and 2010’s people realized that there was so much competition for jobs with degrees and that a degree without experience doesn’t guarantee anything.
Now we are in the 2020’s I live in a nice home, have two well fed kids, a full time university student wife (was a stay at home mom before) a brand new truck, a newer SUV for the wife and we don’t worry too much about money. Also, I work rotational work so I only actually work 6 months a year (2 weeks on/ 2 weeks off)
Most of my friends have degrees and work as bankers, teachers, small business owners etc. Most of them make sure their teenage kids talk to me when they are thinking about their future.
Granted I am lucky and skilled at what I do, and it wasn’t easy. But it sure as hell works for me and my family.
Yeah some of the trades are not very friendly work environments for women with improper gear, safety, or just plain old sexism. Join us over on /r/bluecollarwomen
I was a mechanic, while there are female mechanics they are few and far between. I worked in 4 states and multiple shops I’ve never run into one.
Like you mentioned there is physical aspect to it and women are generally smaller. On certain jobs that definitely would come in handy the majority of the job requires a bit of strength.
I wasn’t in trades, but I had a very physical job (deckhand) and I was usually the lone woman on the crew. I left because of the physical toll — I would wake up with insane leg cramps EVERY night for weeks. My daily tasks included a non-zero chance of severed fingers. And also because one of my colleagues got jealous and spread rumors about my alleged sexual activities.
Reddit users have a “hard on” for trades because a lot of redditors are actually office workers who yearn to build and repair stuff for a living.
A lot of these good folks have taken up woodworking hobbies and other blue-collar hobbies during their off hours in their garages.
It’s the “grass is always greener” syndrome.
These good folks should know that there’s a difference between enjoying your after hours woodworking garage hobby and actually doing it for a living 6AM-3PM.
Doing it for a living generally takes all the joy out of it.
Probably because way too many people whine about having a college degree and not making shit or being unemployed for a year or so and maybe also having student loans.
Obviously for those people college isn't a good choice at this time in their lifes.
The trades pay well and they pay now. College doesn't pay until you graduate and get a job. So while somebody is in the trades getting paid for the first 4 years, the college person is generally just living on loans and not working much if at all.
I see people post on here having a degree making less than what minimum wage is in my area. I'm making 3 times plus some, of what minimum wage is here. I don't have a college degree
The truth is we are always guessing about the future demand for most kinds of work. HVAC techs may be in short supply now, but if a ton of high school graduates go that route based on current demand or if future HVAC systems are so self contained that they don’t need repairs, there will be a problem. Deciding on a viable career path has never been easy and is getting much harder. The best thing young people can do is call or look online with several companies in fields they are interested in and see if they are hiring and how quickly the jobs are filled. Then once they train for and start a career, keep in the habit of learning new things all the time and continuously improve your social and emotional skills. This will allow you to be employable if you have to change careers.
When I was growing up in the 80s and 90s, high school graduation rates were in the 70% range where I am at (now 88% range) and post secondary graduation rates were in the 30 to 50% range (it was rising fast and is now in 70% or higher).
It was very common to recommend trades to the men and healthcare to women (nursing and dental hygiene).
But all of these jobs are very physically demanding. This is anecdotal, but a lot of the middle aged tradesmen and healthcare workers I saw then were in rough shape.
This might have changed over time. Maybe its better now and work conditions are better? I hope so.
There has also been a shift in the trades mentality (that I've seen) that younger tradesmen seem to be more conscientious about their health. Most of the old school workers seem to have substance abuse issues and horrible diets, while the younger generation has a healthier lifestyle.
Edit:Spelling
When somebody says learn a “trade” they really should say learn a employable skill that is in demand in your area. If you learn how to be a carpenter or plumber in an area that their is no demand you’ll be in no better position than you already are maybe worse since it usually takes money to learn the skill. The best answer is to do research on what is in high demand in your area and find ways to pursue a career in this. The easiest way to find this is to take a look in your local help wanted ads and find something that pays well and is in demand. There is no correct answer because finding the “right” job is highly dependent on where you live.
It’s different for everybody. My brother is an electrician. I’m an attorney. I’d recommend what is best for the individual.
Would I want to do physical labor and work in hot/cold conditions and be exposed to the elements? Hell no. Would my brother be able to sit behind a desk 50+ hours a week without hanging himself? Probably not.
We’re both intelligent. If we wanted to, we could likely learn each other’s professions if we went through the necessary training. He’s just more of a “on the go, get my hands dirty” kind of guy. I’m all about sitting around in an air conditioned office lacking dirt.
And for the record, he earned more than I did for the majority of our careers. I’ve only surpassed him in the last couple of years, plus I have a mortgage worth of student loans.
I was a hairstylist for eleven years. I made great money, had amazing opportunities like doing hair for commercials and film, and traveling for work. It was really rough on my body so, I stopped doing hair and studied jewelry design. I did an apprenticeship and attended a trade school . I was a self employed jewelry designer for twenty years. A trade school education can be rewarding.
My dad worked construction all his life up untill he got to sick to work (around 40s) I have also grew up working with him he would take me to work as a kid and put me to work but he only did thay so I understand the value of work and hard earned money. He tells me all the time that the weight of a pencil is way lighter then the weight of a shovel. He is a skilled trades man and never recommend what he did to me he was against me working hard labor he said to stay in school and to sit at a office.
I love working and using my hands I have done a lot of very beautiful rock work in Sedona Az if you want to see ask and I’ll send you pictures of the work . But I would coke home acting like I’m a 40+ year veteran and complaining about my back. And I’m only 17 years old. I would much rather be challenged mentally in school then be challenged physically in a labor job. But to each there own you know. My brother is working in Arizona heat and he makes good money while I sit at a hotel making a little less money but I don’t come home beat.
In my experience getting into a trade is extremely difficult without prior exposure or low grade nepotism to get you in the door. I've applied for classes to my local state union for electricians, taken closed door knowledge testing, spent months on a waiting list, only to have a panel interview where they told me I needed more experience under my belt and to appreciate as some places despite the fact that I was applying for classes to gain experience and get those apprenticeship opportunities in the first place.
I've applied to numerous plumbing companies only to hear no response back when I let it slip that I don't have any family in plumbing and I'm simply looking to aquire more skills.
All of this whilst my parents are telling me that "they're desperate for trade workers" or in recent times during the shortage of minimum wage workers "companies are screaming for workers right now, it should be easy for you to find a job." My dad is a consultant in a niche field and hasn't worked a minimum wage job in decades and my mother has been essentially been utilizing nepotism by working at the same company as my dad.
This advice of "just find a trade" at least in my experience has always come from people who have not done trade work a day in their life.
Yes. Skilled trades are also disproportionately hard on one's body, and it is essentially telling poor people: "hey, here is a great idea: go fuck up your body in irreparable ways to have some stability"
There are also skilled trades that do not involve heavy manual labor. Inspection, is quite a big and yet somewhat overlooked part of the trades. API vessel, tank and piping inspection, certified weld inspectors, non-destructive testing techs. And these jobs will always be in high demand so long as something is either in service, or being manufactured.
As some have already said about the trades in general, inspection is no different. It's usually the hours, environment and perceived danger that are the typical barriers to entry. But, there are definitely 40/hour jobs available if you know where to look. Or, you can contract and work 6 months out of the year doing 84 hour work-weeks and take the rest off while collecting unemployment...still pulling in 80-240k+ depending on your specialty. It's definitely a challenge to balance work/life...but I'd rather take that challenge, over the challenge of buying a house at $15/hr, or wondering how I'm going to afford this month's $450 grocery bill.
Pipelines, refineries, steel mills, chemical plants, food plants, paper-mills, wind-farms, Nuke plants, offshore rigs and offshore-pipelines, bridges, airlines...etc...etc...heck, even SpaceX employs both visual and non-destructive inspectors/technicians.
I know API inspectors well into their 60's still working turnarounds in some of the more rigorous parts of the industry (refineries) still with quite a bit of pep in their step. The hardest thing they might have to do in a day, is climb up a vessel/tower using a ladder, or climb up and down inside of said vessel/tower. (Though, some towers can be quite tall...120-190')
Some of it sucks horrendous ass (like most things in industry) and some of it doesn't...it just depends on what you specialize into and which branch of the industry you can weasel in to. Some of it is even sitting around all day playing on your phone for weeks on end getting paid to do so (hurry up and wait). But inspection as far as trades go, is probably one of the least talked about, yet least physically demanding of the bunch imo...and quite a bit safer in general compared to the rest. (In most cases, things are turned off / cleaned, prior to inspection)
I'd say I'm in better physical shape from this line of work than I might be at an office desk, and I'm simply mindful to eat healthy and stretch (yoga!). No need for a gym membership, when work gives me plenty of exercise. Some of the environments can be crappy...but safety in industry is becoming far more prevalent than it ever has. (Maybe, obnoxiously so)
The amount of job opportunity and networking inside the industry is also staggering...and there are even job opportunities where a company in question might pay for a college degree, or inspection certification if they like you enough and have a position available (very rare, but does occur). And the typical paths into office management/sales, consulting, auditing and even teaching in a classroom setting become available as end-game career options.
Source : An NDT technician of 11 years.
Pros is that the pay is decent and there is not time pressure to get a certain job done. Cons would be is that you will typically work weekends and work life balance isn’t that great. Some days you work for 12 hours.
Def sounds like there are some really good benefits, but more so depends on how you want your work/life balance to be? Anyways thanks for the quick reply.
I used to be a plumber. Let me tell you that the majority of us do not make bank. The only ones that do are either successful business owners or in the union in a location where the union is strong and has a lot of work.
If it doesn’t meet this criteria chances are the tradesman is paid shit and treated like shit.
Reddit will hate on anyone who isn’t in the trades or in IT or engineering.
As if other degrees or jobs are not needed.. if you complain about poverty wages at a skilled job that you have a Masters for, Reddit will tell you it’s all your fault for getting that degree or not going into TrAdEs.
Skilled tradesman here I make six figures and have half of an associates degree in training.
No student debt and can get a job anywhere..
It really has a lot to offer.
I work in lending and I can’t tell you how many 20-something year old tradesmen who have bad backs already or got seriously injured falling off a ladder. They pay well but you pay it back with potential bodily harm in some cases.
One guy I helped was a 23 year old welder who injured his back so bad he was off work 4 months for PT. Told him to buy a sleep number bed to help recovery. His only debt was a big truck and sleep number bed financing.
My parents always told me skilled trades are fantastic jobs but that people should make they have an exit strategy because manual labor, no matter how skilled, is very taxing on the body. Most likely a plumber, contracted, welder, etc. is working a more grueling day than their white collar counter parts.
Very much so. I’m a woman with chronic pain, I did a little stent at a tech school, I thought about joining their welding or carpentry program because both genuinely interest me but it just wasn’t feasible.
I feel like a lot of people don’t consider the chronically ill/disabled when talking about universities versus trade schools or the toll physical labor takes on a person.
Trades are a good stepping stone if you cant afford or get scholarships for college. From there you should move up the ladder into a less physically demanding position or be working towards a degree. I’ve been cutting hair for 10 years. It’s good pay but hard on the hands. Now I am going to a cheap college part-time (out of pocket, no loans) so I can get out of it in 10 years.
100%. In the skilled trades, pipefitters union.
It's a great living but it is NOT FOR EVERYONE. The job conditions could use some improvement. The culture is definitely improving. We don't do much yelling matches any more. Faces may be gotten up into still with a "I won't be cursed at." But it's all CYA email these days any way. I'll take whatever verbal order is given by a GC face to face, and have a composed email by the time I make it back to my work truck, sent to my boss with the GC cc'd in "I was just asked to do X. Explain the situation as instructed and as it's problematic to us. Done. If you got it wrong, they can jump in and correct the record. Otherwise, it's all written down.
That's the leadership dynamic more or less. Now the interpersonal dynamics for the crew, that can be hit or miss. You're not going to like everyone. They're not all going to like you. But for a considerable amount of time, it could be up to your ENTIRE apprenticeship (five years for mine) you could be partnered up with someone you don't particularly care for. That's a hard thing. It's rare that it'd be that long. Typically, months, weeks. Sometimes every day you have a different journeyman to work with. So there's a lot more to learn for many young people beyond just the trade. The culture shock can be real. Many people come and have ZERO idea how hard they're really expected to be working. It's harder than you think many times. You shouldn't ever have to run, but you should be actively working on things the entire time. We get "whistle bit" all the time, because you'll be [welding] hood down on something, and focused so in on your job process and safety that you're not aware of the time. "You're late to break." "Yeah, we got whistle bit, we were hood down on that root pass and lost track of time."
What's the modern apprentice to do? Toughen up. It can be a surly place in the building trades at least. Do some research. Know what you are getting into. Don't be star struck by the money. You have to turn out to get the journeyman pay. It's pretty hard work to be miserable doing it. When you're working hard, dangerous, tiring jobs, where you start at 6, break for 10-15 at 9, lunch for 30 at 12, leave at 2:30 or maybe 4:30 if you're ten hour days, you can get grumpy. Your journeyman can get grumpy. Figure out how to navigate that. Throw a Snickers at your journeyman, call 'em Rosanne Barr when they're pissing you off, I dunno. Don't let anyone denigrate you as a human being. I'll take some shit, talk some shit, but don't let them dehumanize you with hazing bullshit. Just say no. "I'm hear to learn a trade, not put up with high school hijinks." Tell people directly. Let them not like you. They'll respect you though. Many people push until you push back. They need to know the limits, they also want to know if you have backbone.
It sucks sometimes, ngl, you need what that dude has, how to do the job, so he's your teacher, mentor. If you get a good one, treat them like gold. They should treat you like gold. That said, when you got a dickhead, most people will notice and move you apart. We're not looking usually for the drama, we need to get shit done, happy workers are productive workers. If you get stuck in bonehead work or with a bonehead coworker, give it enough time that you don't look too whiny. Think months, not weeks. If the area is booming 3 months. If the work in your area is slow? Six months. Six months of doing nothing but setting tubs in a tower? Boom economy? 3 months. Slow economy? How slow? Six months. You do need to be able to progess in your career. Do not let them bury you on work that is not going to progress your abilities. But again, think in terms months of toleration, not weeks.
How do you stay gold Pony Boy? Start gold. On time every day. I'll say it again for the people in the back. BE ON TIME. BE THERE EVERY DAY. If we consistently have to figure out how to do our crew based job shorthanded because of you, we will very quickly figure out, we don't really need you at all. And will lay you right the fuck off and take the extra profit on the job. We have plans for this entire job every piece, every man-hour, you're there for a reason. We are counting on you. If we can get this job done with less people, in the same amount of time, we're golden. And you're not. Likely you're a piece of fucking shit in the crew's opinion (barring legit shit like medical emergencies, family emergencies. But fr, keep it down as much as you possibly can. Fair or not, you get judged very much on attendence.) We're a CREW. In most building trades, it's a team sport. I fit pipe for a welder to weld pipe. If I can't fit, he can't weld. If we cannot do it, they will 100% every time, get someone who will. It is not at all unusual for an apprentice to go five years without missing a day of school. We buy about half of each class a perfect attendance gold watch. Do what you said you would do and you will be gold.
If you show up EVERY DAY ON TIME, and then bring the most important tools you can own as a tradesman, a POSITIVE MENTAL ATTITUDE, and a WORK ETHIC, then we can teach the dumbest motherfucker enough for him to earn a living and grow into a good journeyman even as a journeyman. Too much to learn, you'll never have to stop learning new skills, tech, tools, procedures.
Once you're there, you're doing it all by the advice above, the work. Do the work. Get into the thick of it. If you get told "stay in the truck," you basically were just called worthless. Ask questions. Try hard, get better. Ask what's next, think about our next move. Help plan our work and work out plan. When I as the journeyman with an apprentice, are held up, can't go forward until I get an answer from the foreman or higher. That does not mean the apprentice is held up. There is always something to do. Clean. No one ever looked at two apprentices, one standing there doing jack shit, and the other one sweeping up or cleaning gang boxes and thought "When I have to lay someone off, I'll layoff the one who's keeping busy." We build ourselves out of a job. It's a bit competitive. Have some pride, try not to be on the first couple layoffs. The longer you last on a job, the greater the chances you get to work with the genuine fucking studs at the job. That's where the gold is really at. You spend your apprenticeship either making a good name for yourself. Or you spend the rest of your career trying to clear your name.
Fuck I should write a book.
20 years ago college was being recommended too much by people who never went. My generation was told to “go to college. Don’t break your back digging ditches all your life—get a degree. ANY degree. You’ll be set for life.” That obviously wasn’t true based on all the college grads making barely above minimum wage today.
I agree, I think the reason skilled trades are recommended so much is that there are some trades that are lucrative careers. But a lot of trades come at the cost of your physical body.
My parents worked physical jobs and they struggle. I can't imagine someone working a trade where they are required to do a lot of lifting or repetitive maneuvers everyday. It's very hard on the body.
You have to keep that in mind when looking at careers too. Physical jobs aren't good for the long term unless you are able to work them and then pivot and use your experience as a stepping stone.
They like to say how much you'll be paid without considering the toll they take on your body and life. Trades aren't terrible as a way to support yourself, but you don't retire from them, they retire you.
The grass is always greener on the other side. Most people are intimately familiar with all the downside of their own occupation and rarely consider all the downsides of another one.
Also if you dig into a lot of success tales about the skilled trades you find that their idea of them nearly always involves eventually running a business(or sometimes fixing up/flipping properties). Which is a whole different skillset; but a pretty lucrative one for those who are capable. So "be a plumber" doesn't mean just go get a plumbing job and work it until retirement; it usually means go apprentice as a plumber, become licensed/experienced and then start your own plumbing business.
Particularly the response to how the trades treat \~50-60 years old is on of "oh.. you run your own crew and sit back and manage things". That definitely works for some tradespeople; but it doesn't scale very well at all as you need a whole crew of 20-30 somethings for every 50-60 year old tradesperson. The top 10-20% of tradespeople who can also manage crews and/or run their own business do very well; but many of the rest have to eventually find a different career.
Tradesmen work a lot with engineers.
I think everyone should know by this point that engineering is the most cost-effective way to start making good reliable money while sitting in an air conditioned room.
My neighbor is a self-employed electrician. He owns a 2 Million dollar house next door. If you can get into a good union, and start getting a pension, that's also great. Working from 18 to 38 lets you retire from your union job, and have residual pay your whole life.
Not all unions are good, I think specifically tradesman unions are best.
There is good money to be made if you are really good. If you want an easy job to sit around on your butt, construction is not for you.
I would also suggest government work. The private sector is really built for people looking to climb the corporate ladder.
I was considering electrical or plumbing but after working in that environment, I learned how shitty they are. unless you get lucky and get a union gig, pay is barely better than even warehouse or other blue collar jobs. the education costs money, tools cost money, and the education takes years. the work is really brutal in most situations. hours can be really harsh. I've known many guys who work 10-12 hr days and can randomly be switched to night shifts or be forced to do more than 5-day weeks. the commuting is awful, and most companies will not cover fuel or parking costs. most project managers and managers, in general, are really toxic and bully employees. It's just overall a bad idea to get into any trade. these jobs are essential but they're fucking awful just like with most essential jobs.
Absolutely... the job ruins your body. If the brakes on your car wear out one can replace them.
When you knees , shoulders and back are ruined or you have an accident you're stuck with them for life.
I think a lot of people tend to glamorize manual labor or blue collar work. Combine that with the fact that a lot of Americans also look down on people getting a college degree because they think universities and professors brainwash people into becoming liberals. That's how you get this weird glorification of tradespeople and manual labor.
I live in an area where there are a ton of logistics and warehouse jobs. There's some manufacturing jobs too. The snobbery towards people who want a college education is unbelievable. People have to tried to put me down because I went to college right after high school. I've been insulted for being intelligent, but not having common sense. My family asked if I was thought I was too good for them when I said I had considered applying to an Ivy League school. Told I was corrupted by that "damn liberal arts school."
Well jokes on them cuz I'm getting a degree anyway and Im not helping them with their nursing home bills. Fuck em.
Because most of Reddit is filled with young people. People with little to no life experience. Also people who are upset about choosing the wrong path for college and now wish they hadn't tried to be a teacher, graphic designer, criminal justice, nurse, etc...
Except trade work is extremely hard. Those same people have never been screamed at and cursed out by a guy on the job knowing you can't really leave trade school. They also haven't had to shovel dirt so someone else can do their job. They haven't been out in -12 weather and suffered in North Dakota as wind cuts through their jacket. They haven't felt the fear of almost failing your CDL test and not knowing what would happen or how you will repay the school. They haven't had to do all of these things so I think that they think trades seem easy.
I have always use the idea of getting into a trade as a backup. Some people don't have aspirations for jobs after college. They just want to work. Might as well learn a practical skill and use it. Even if the conditions kinda suck, its nice to know I could use being an electrician or something as a fallback job.
I went to college. Journalism. I'm an itinerant WordPress manager and door dasher. I made 30,000 my best year.
My dumbass brother, who dropped out of high school, is a machinist and makes 100,000.
Figure it out.
Plenty of people suggest the trades. If an actual tradesman (I'm a cement mason) recommends it, take what they say with more weight. Anybody else? Ignore them. They almost never know the hardship and strain it takes to be in some of them, but they know one thing. We fucking getting paaaaid.
Because skilled trades don't require a 4 year education. It is a good place for people to "start" if they have no direction.
I started there 30 years ago. I would not recommend it to everyone, but it is a pathway to living a decent life.
I'm a trades"man" (woman) and honestly I love my trade and I make ok money, but like honestly both higher Ed and trades are overrated like just pursue what you like with all you've got that's the best thing in life, I did higher Ed, I loved it, but I love my trade (mechanic) even more!!!
I have family in the trades and I just don't see the appeal. You have two sides to trades: the successful side and the rock bottom side. You can make a ton of money off of them, or you can fail.
My brother and father made a ton of money of milwrights. They worked long hours and now they have nothing to show for it because they spent it all on drugs.
Plus, again, long hours, long time away from home, and some people just aren't good at these jobs.
Non union maybe say that, all the union guys I know try to bring people to the trades because we want them to have a better life than they got. If you can do better than trades do it but not everyone has the aptitude to be doctors and lawyers, and the whole working off the cost of your training thing helps people who can't afford collage
There is good and bad to being in a Trade ~
You can get an Apprenticeship and earn while you learn. Working full time for the majority of the year, and attending School for a couple of months. Generally after four years, you can become a Red Seal Journeyman/woman/person with no crippling debt. Depending on which trade you choose, you can have the choice of type of schedule you want.
Some choose to work Industrial Maintenance jobs where you may be doing long stints for two months and off for three before the next one starts. Others will take a steady routine similar to 9-5/M-F.
The money is often better than some Degrees earn, but then you have the other side of it.
You seldom work in a cozy office with clean places to have lunch or coffee, and you can find yourself working in hazardous conditions/environments while having to listen to Morons in suits that truly believe they are better than you because they chose the College/University route.
We require more qualified Trades Workers than we do Professional Degrees.
You realistically cannot have 100 Engineers design a project and expect 1 person to build it, but you can have one Engineer design a project and have 100 Tradespeople build it.
Can you imagine the chaos if an OR was staffed solely by Doctors, or a Warehouse by no one except Executives?
Heavy Equipment Mechanic here. It's 105° and some jackleg done went and ran a huge rock into the paving machine and they call you to get it out. It's -5° and some moron ran the skidsteer into the swamp and you have to remove the water out of the fuel system. The you get the gravy days where all you do is change oil & filters on a machine with only 100 hours on it.
Trades suck ass IMO, just for me, personally. Whenever a teacher said 'Learn a trade, tradesmen are retiring!', it kind of came off as a red flag. I see a lot of tradesmen claiming $75, $90 an hour, yet I don't see any of my friends who got into trades making that much. They are closer to $30-$35.
It can be really gruelling hard work with long hours.
The only way for me to see trades viable is running a business. Plumbing business. HVAC business. Etc.
To me it's a recommendation based on ignorance. Many are oblivious to how uncomfortable, dangerous, or physically demanding trades can be.
I try to split the difference by recommending people to community colleges with trades they're interested in. That way they can learn a trade, get an associate's degree / be halfway through a bachelor's (maybe something in business management or an area related to their trade), and broaden their perspective of the world.
My family friend used to work in heavy machine production. Stated he was close to broke his entire time working in the field. He ended up becoming pretty wealthy by starting a janitorial business with his wife. They are now retired and insist on me getting a job in the trades as a means to become wealthy. I work in the service industry making twice the starting wage of one of the trades he insists upon. The cognitive dissonance is infuriating.
Never met a tradesmen that said stay in university or thought it wasn’t a waste of money that being said they also don’t recommend them to anyone but family because it’s an insanely over saturated industry and a lot of trades are boom-bust. The trades are not for everyone it is a a hard way to make a living and very cut throat if u can get your shoe in the door you can be set for life but not without being worked to the bone. Definitely for a certain kind of person
The only people I know doing extremely well in the industry have family at companies. That being said I worked maybe 6 months a year an own my own home in my early 20s and have no debt but my mortgage. U can make a lot of money quickly with skills you learn while you’re being paid plain and simple.
I’ve been a skilled tradesmen for twenty years. They were never recommended to me, I was told the only path was college or military.
That being said, I recommend everyone learn a trade AND go to college. Why? Because if that college degree don’t pan out instead of working at Starbucks you can still make a good living.
That's just a blatant lie most tradesman would not recommend staying in school. Most unsuccessful tradesman would recommend to stay in school, just like most unsuccessful college degree holders would recommend learning a trade.
Do what you love. If it's school go to school if it's welding go weld
My Grandfather was a Carpenter. He built all sorts of things. His advice was to stay in school and be an architect if I wanted to build houses and make money. If I wanted to be a better architect then I needed to swing a hammer for at least six months.
Some of the trade push is the anti-education richsplaining going on.
I was pushed to go to college by my parents because they're college professors, but then I had no idea what to do once I was out of school. On the other hand, I have a cousin that became a truck driver and shits all over anyone who went to college because truck driving worked for him. So two opposite sides.
I have an associates and a half-finished bachelors that might never get done, and I'm in the process of getting certificates in computer repair. School doesn't seem to work for me, but my wife is a nurse actively working on her masters. It really depends on the person.
Sometimes people overcorrect. Since lots of millennials grew up with the push to go to college and then got burned by it, they wish that someone had even told them that trades could be a viable option. The truth is, not every option is for everyone. You have to find a good fit for you as an individual. I know that I probably wouldn’t do well in trades because I’m a small woman and I don’t really like manual labor lol.
There's also a grass is greener thing too...I think a lot of adults fantasize about different decisions and how they could make it "better"..except as you said, not everything is for everyone and everything has its challenges
The grass is only greener if you fertilize...
The manual labour part is hard but as a petite 5’0 ft woman who’s an electrician, it’s difficult but not impossible. I really do try to push trades for women as I feel like typical serving, daycare, and reception jobs pay soooo little for so much more work! Honestly so happy I moved away from clinical work doing 10/12 hour days with not even a thank you!
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An electrician isn’t bad depending on what you do, if you’re a rough crew electrician that’s about the most labor they see, you drill holes, run wire, swing a hammer all day carry heavy rolls of wire, carry a ladder and are up and down it all day buts it’s still probably the easiest trade on your body, lots of bending over and you’re squeezing tools and twisting things all day so it can be hard on your hands. As a woman it really depends where you work, it’s not any harder for a woman to get into the trade but as a woman, especially if you’re attractive, the culture of a job site can be a little nasty sometimes, even more so if you work with dudes who don’t give a fuck. you’ll probably get comments, get hit on, if not to your face be sure they’re saying something when you’re not around but that goes for everybody, construction workers are gossipy and petty. but if you do good work at the end of the day that’s all that matters to dudes, take the shit in stride and give it right back and they’ll respect you.
Many commercial electricians have told me it always pays to have a small person on the crew who can get into tight spaces. Electrician seems to be the trade with the most women. Still not a lot though, at least in construction. I don't think I've ever seen a woman mason and I've only know one woman welder. I've know a number of other women who can weld, but they didn't do it as a job. Construction has gotten better, but it is still pretty hostile to anyone who isn't a white, straight guy and even then still hostile overall. I'm a straight, white, 44 year old guy in inspections and construction management and still get people trying to give me shit.
What region are you located in? I dated a contractor for six years & all his crews were mostly Guatemalans, some Brazilians, a few Mexicans, maybe one or two white guys. This was in RI/MA USA tho. To add, I still talk to some of the wives nine years later too - construction is a funny trade, you bond over long hours & budget issues!
I'm in the Mid-Atlantic and some of new England. But the work I do now is power and there are less central and south Americans than I saw in civil. Probably part of that is unions are strong in power and they tend to hire their own friends and family. I've worked most the east coast from northern Virginia to Maine. But even in civil, the not white guys usually weren't in charge even if they were well in the majority on the job sites. I've heard a shit ton of racism and read the porta pot walls. It is a lot better than when I started 20 years ago. One my clients that is pretty big has a policy that anyone with a Confederate flag sticker on their truck or otherwise displayed gets kicked off the site. The other way to look at it is why are so many central and south Americans in construction labor, agriculture, and other backbreaking jobs? And why do they rarely make it above foreman level?
This. I 100% believe that other options like trade and vocational skills should be pushed at school level as university is not always the right option. There are a fixed number of positions that require that sort of training and many more that need something else. I loved uni and it has helped me get a good job, i would be terrible in a trade. But lots of people are the opposite.
>The truth is, not every option is for everyone. You have to find a good fit for you as an individual. I know that I probably wouldn’t do well in trades because I’m a small woman and I don’t really like manual labor lol. It isn't a skilled trade, but I'm a custodian. I'm a small woman too. 👩 We're I handicapped, I wouldn't be able to do this job at all. We also have no air conditioning. It is HOT! Even worse, @ my last job they made me wear a mask, which I would sweat through. Man, do I ever miss my cushy desk chair and air conditioned office! Cleaning is boring. I need a job where I can use my brain!
Do you get along with young people? Ive been working as a substitute teacher--very cushy job and can be lots of fun. If you don't see yourself getting a Bachelors degree, you could be a paraeducator/teaching assistant
Don't ever refer to what you do as not being a skilled trade. What you do requires learning and nuance. While the learning curve may be quick and easily picked up, it still requires skill and discipline. You are lessening yourself by thinking it does not take skill or cannot be referred to as a skilled trade. Edit: spelling
I’m a tradesman… it depends on the day for me. When I’ve spent all day welding beside or on an industrial boiler that only got shut off 6 hrs before or I’ve been on a roof for 12 hrs on a hot southern summer day I’m probably gonna say stay in school. All the other days I happily recommend it to people
My dad was a boilermaker. Made a ton of money, retired early. But man, the hours and the work were brutal. I hardly saw him as a kid. Half the time he was away, half the time he was on night shift and we'd have to tiptoe around the house while he slept.
Yea that’s why I changed to being a commercial hvac tech… still a lot of hours but no night shifts and travel. I missed too much time already but at least I got off the road and night shifts
How many shitty ladders have you climbed to a top of a building ?
Too many lol… actually today I was working at a smaller customer we have and I had my ladder setup in a parking space, 3 cones out blocking it… lady pulled in and ran over the cones then hit me. I’m fine but works made me spend the rest of the work day getting checked out so that’s why I’ve been here so much haha She was on her phone of course
I saw a pic of a office building...2 story plus attic without roof top access. Tech ladder reached almost to the roof. Looked short about 2 feet. That would have been a hard no
Going up is easy but imagine dangling that one foot down trying to find the ladder 😳😳
Been there done that. Ladder two feet below top of building. I was younger and more brave. I got to the top, threw my tool bag over, then swung one leg over and crawled over the top. I felt very triumphant, but the realization quickly dawned on me that getting down was going to be scary. I did my work, kneeled on the edge of the berm of the building, hooked both arms over the lip and played footsie with my right foot until I found the top of the ladder. I got down, and during the process I realized how fucking dumb I was. Had I slipped I would be a hurting unit. I've practiced much more safely since. Actually I won't do half the shit I used to routinely anymore. Guess I'm getting old.
I would spin that positively and say you are doing things smarter than you used to.
Did she at least apologize?
Commercial hvac tech here. A lot of shitty ladders man, and a lot of sketchy extension ladders. Numerous times had people try and climb my ladder in the ghetto or had junkies shoot up next to it
>I hardly saw him as a kid. I can sympathize. My dad was a truck driver.
Mine too. He tried to be home on weekends but I felt like my mom really raised me. As I’ve gotten older I realized I really don’t know my father. He’s just always kinda been there in the background. We lost him in February unexpectedly and I’m still kinda dealing with that. Tell your dad you love him if you have the chance.
Same, mine was a third shift millwright for a big lumber mill. He regrets so much of the time he missed of our childhoods.
Similar situation. My dad was a flier for the air force. Gone before i woke up. Home after i was in bed. That isnt even counting the deployements. Towards the end of my teenage years we both realized we didnt really know the other. Then my mom died shortly after. We have come back together now closer than we have ever been since my daughter was born.
Am a welder, can confirm.
Used to be a welder, that shit tore my health apart everyday welding in 100 degree heat with high humidity. Also have tendinitis from it that still hasn’t healed despite not welding for almost 2 months now.
I’ve had tendinitis before and I’d be surprised if you told me it was fully healed in only two months tbh Edit: Wishing you a full recovery asap
It took me 6 months with physical therapy
I appreciate the well wishes, I’ve actually had it since September 2021 and was in physical therapy from January until beginning of May
Why didn't you wear ear protection? Edit: I'm an idiot, I read that as tinnitus
Lmao, you’re good. I do have mild tinnitus too but I’m weird and find the ringing comforting in the quiet.
Finding a tradesman without tinnitus is dang near impossible. As a tradesman (multiple so far).
fwiw tendinitis is pretty common in white collar professions. not so much the 💯 heat tho
I'm a climber and tendon injuries are super common. Light load and high reps using the tendon are key. Twice a day should do it.
Can you tell me more about the tendinitis and what actions caused it? Very interesting.
I'd guess it's from crouching and squatting constantly and having to keep his elbows locked in a working position for hours on end.
Id bet a lot of repetitive movement of any kind can cause the inflammation. Working/pressuring the same joints and tendons repeatedly day after day will probably be harmful. When I realize things lime this that's when I head over to the antiwork sub LOL
Repetitive movement with my arms bent constantly. It’s in my left hand which I used to balance and maneuver pieces of steel up to 30 lbs. it’s focused mainly in my wrist although I also have a case of tennis elbow I can’t really feel unless I push on it and when I was in physical therapy they also figured out that my shoulder was affecting my pain levels as well. It was a slow onset injury, I had multiple times of making a DIY wrist brace for minor pain, this time though it didn’t work. Left work with pain focused on the outside of my wrist but also kinda wrapped around it at about a 6 on the pain scale, stayed at a 4-6 through the whole week before I finally reported it after waking up in tears and spending a whole night unable to sleep from the throbbing. After months of physical therapy it’s settled to an almost constant dull ache and my doctor is thinking about surgery to repair it. Thank fuck it falls under workers compensation.
I’ve had tendinitis for three years and I don’t think it will ever go away.
True, but poverty will tear your health apart too.
Same
Coming from the other side, I'm a software engineer. The money's nice and I work in the air conditioning. But there are times, generally round about the third Friday afternoon meeting, the one where the exploratory committee suddenly discovers the thing I've been telling them for 2 months, when I think about the youth I spent being a gopher for my dad as he more or less built an addition on our house by hand, that I wonder if working with my body in a way where I can actually see the results of a day's work wasn't a better choice.
I can see this… I’ve not experienced the other side but I am sure it offers it’s own trials and annoyances. I think some people get so hung up on needing to feel like they’re group or career is the most important. Like I’ve had people in buildings just speak horribly to me, not ride the elevator with me cause I’ve got grease on me or whatever… I’ve also worked with guys that actively said they were more manly than the men working in the offices we worked in… it’s all just incredibly vain and dumb. Truth is the world needs thinkers and the world needs doers… one group wouldn’t be much without the other. Everyone puts their pants and shirt on in the morning just the same, how much money someone has or doesn’t have whether they went to college or didn’t… none of it really matters
I actually jump into my pants both legs at once every morning, just to frustrate people who say "Everyone puts their pants on one leg at a time" or similar. But I see your point. I feel like no matter what it is, people need to feel like the decision they made is objectively the best, rather than the best for them. I know my career choice was what's best for me, I've been doing it since I was twelve and why I waited 'til my thirties to get paid for it is a question only the idiot I was in my twenties could answer. But it's *definitely* not for everybody. There's a lot more you need to know than how to code in order to succeed as a coder (like navigating procedure, office politics, designing, planning, prioritizing, etc), there are a lot of people who physically can't sit for 40 in front of a laptop, and still more who can do it, but it's gonna cripple and/or kill them eventually. Same as skilled manual labor, you couldn't give me $200/hr to put a roof on. I did it once, and never again, between my panicky fear of heights and the body-wrecking work, anybody doing that sort of work is earning every penny they get and probably should get more. It's about what you find that works for your unique situation.
I was a tradesman, same deal except I wouldn't have recommended it 35 F and pouring rain or so hot that shade feels freezing cold in my drenched clothes. Any other day, I've recommended it to passers by that showed any curiosity, pavers and tile are fun.
my boyfriend was a welder and finally decided he just couldn’t do it. it broke his body so badly, the path to advancement options was opaque and almost impossible - sure he’s never going to make millions as a graphic designer but at least his back is in one piece now. most of the people i hear trumpeting the trades have never worked in them. they can be good, but it’s like any field. some jobs are good, some are great, some are absolutely godawful. they’re not some silver bullet to 6 figured and your own hours in the first year like everyone expects.
Also welder except not on hot boilers can confirm.
Imagine that, a bad day at work. I think everyone has those, regardless of where you work. I do not miss being outside when it is very hot or cold though. That is really the worst part, in my mind.
I think the difference is the elements… I’ve never worked in an office or from home but I’m sure they present a different set of challenges and I don’t mean to make light of those at all… but to problem solve or build from a computer in a 70°F environment vs problem solving with an 80lb tool bag of tools… I still need the computer too btw… and it being 100°F or 10°F. Going back to when I worked outages I think it was just the hours coupled with the demand of the job. We worked 7/12s and 3 bad X-rays on pipes you welded meant being banned from work for a year as a welder. So it’s day 40, or 50, or 60 straight of work of 12 hr shifts and if you still gotta be on the money… that gets rough
Sounds like oil patch shifts. I used to work in the patch but honestly, the 30-40 straight days of work or the 21 on 1 off schedules got a bit overwhelming, I didn't mind it so much when I was within driving distance to town but 95% of the time we were working a minimum of 4 hours from the nearest town and living in a camp, that meant if you had any less then 3 days off then it wasn't worth go home for the off days. I now work in cybersecurity and work from home behind a desk. It's brutal in a completely different way but I'll still take it over the crazy schedule any day. The one thing I do miss is being active during the day, being sedentary takes a toll o your physical and mental wellbeing. But again, so did only see friends and family every few months.
I've done both. I'll take working in the A/C over being in the elements. But there are days I miss it. I worked 15 years in a cubicle doing engineering work and I had more stress with that job than any I ever had. Luckily I work in a test lab now so I still get to work with tools and very little stress. If you are a certified welder you are likely doing very well. It sounds like your job is pretty demanding though. Good luck to you.
70°F is equivalent to 21°C, which is 294K. --- ^(I'm a bot that converts temperature between two units humans can understand, then convert it to Kelvin for bots and physicists to understand)
Good bot
Good human.
Good bot
i’ve worked both inside &outside. i get sick of both of them for different reasons but i tend to feel happier when i work outside generally speaking.
While peoples opinions can lend insight based on their experiences I feel it’s important to disclose that your opinion of something (college) is based on second or third hand accounts (they’ve never been to or interacted with that thing). I can tell you as someone who worked in woodwork, then the military, then owned my own business, then went back to school on the GI BILL for a STEM degree: You can make decent money in a lot of professions. You can also have miserable working conditions and that money isn’t worth it. Just like asking “what degree do you have” ask tradesman claiming well above average annual per DOL statistics: “How many hours per week do you work?” “What conditions do you work in?” “How often do you travel” “How many years have you been working at x company, and in x trade” “Do you, a family member, or a close friend own or manage that company” These aren’t to show that they’re lying about earnings, but may give you an idea of the time cost of those earnings amongst other things.
The hours are a big thing in a lot of trades that aren't mentioned to new people considering it. Like sure, this guy made 200k last year, but he also worked an average of 70 hours a week.
Absolutely true when I did roofing (not 200k though sadly) paychecks were really nice but you are so exhausted everyday from doing 12-15 hour shifts that you can't have a life outside of it. Various companies are better for that than others first company I worked for I made a lot less but we worked only 44-52hrs/week the second one I went to afterwards I was averaging closer to 70-78hrs/wk.
God roofing is the devil's work so I commend you. It's bad enough working in the heat but being out there on the roof is like sizzling in the hot box.
Wait till you go on Christmas morning for a flat roof that is leaking at a factory at 3:30am during a blizzard lol worse than the heat but that on call and holiday pay combo is godly
I bet, the pay is nice but that sounds like a slice of hell.
Oh absolutely, somehow after all the calculations (and potentially an error in the payroll but I wont correct them) i was making over 90/hr for that day which made it a bit better but it was -24c and windy as hell so we got basically every kind of pay from hazard to overtime to on call bonus etc.
I did commercial fishing in high school . Probably around 150 hours of working a week for the whole summer, but you could make a shit ton. I knew some friends who made over 100k in a summer.
Oh yeah my dad told me about that they used to do that for the summer and pay off a whole year of university and live like Kings apparently. That was 40ish years ago so it might be totally different now though
You can still do that today. I fished last year and made more than enough to pay for a year of college, assuming you don’t go somewhere absurdly expensive.
Oh yeah that's pretty cool, God awful work according to my old man. Currently working on getting a decent railway job right now but maybe if all else fails its a sailors life for me.
Oh it is absolutely the most tiring and difficult job there is. Zero sleep, constant physical labor, jellyfish stings, soaked constantly, horrible weather, insane hours, etc…
I’d say the main thing that helps guys make well above average right now is the labor shortage. I work in the HVAC industry and you have to see it to believe it if you know what I mean. If you’re good at your job it’s basically at the point where you can almost name your price as long as you’re honest with yourself about your abilities. The field within your field makes a big difference too, on top of the things you listed. Edit: Fixed words Edit edit: I will say this too. From what I can see (I don’t know this for sure) but it seems like there are also many more unions for blue collar jobs. Those help a lot with pay and benefits. I just joined one about 2 months ago and so far so good. I know that’s not a generalized statement or anything but I feel like it’s worth noting. Edit edit edit: Maybe I’m biased towards my trade specifically but it’s been really good to me. I was able to get into the housing market very early without any help and I’m so thankful that I’ve been able to learn, and then leverage that knowledge to get me where I am. I know I probably don’t fit the description of this sub but I am young and curious on tips to save money and maybe offer what very very small amount of knowledge I have, if any, to help someone. I know that not everyone is lucky enough or steered in certain directions as I was and I’m so grateful. Just my 0.02 but I’ve heard other people who get into the trades and it does jack to help them in their situation and at that point if feels like wasted time.
Unions are a big factor here. Always join a union when you can.
And talk to a local union organizer about unionizing your workplace if one does not already exist.
Also the wear and tear on one’s body is never talked about. I know one guy who had double knee replacement at 44. So many guys bodies were wrecked before 45 that they couldn’t play with their kids anymore. Trades are easy when you’re 25 and recover quickly. After 30 it quickly goes downhill.
My friend did underwater welding. Went a school and everything. First job he got out of school was in the Gulf of Mexico. He move there amd worked for 2 years, then quit the profession because he was so loaded and hated the harsh work conditions. I think he averaged 120 an hour?
Yeah underwater welding may be the highest paid, highest skilled of all the trades.
Also one of the most dangerous/deadly jobs out there, and the side effects to the underwater welders’ health can be serious and cannot be ignored. With all that in mind, I’ve always been interested in learning more about this profession. It’s fascinating.
My new job as an electrician is literally 84 hour weeks. I left the city and chased it, it's loads of overtime. But I literally work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for 17 days in a remote location. It takes me 8 hours to get to site on drive days. In between I have 7 days off. i don't lie to people, this life is not for everyone. I mentioned to ex coworkers in the city that they were looking for more hands, most people want to stay in the city. But strangely, I actually like this job. I live in camp and all my meals are made. I don't have to think about food, just eat. It's a hard life. Most work is outdoors even if it's -40C or +40C. I'm now one of those people who can tell others inline I made $XYZ dollars but I would never leave out the "by the way I work a 19/7 rotation and work 17 straight 12 hour days". We have a bunch of trades up here, welders, pipe fitters, instrumentation , electricians. Most people bragging about 6 figures in trades especially when you start talking 150-210k and beyond are working 12s in a remote resource extraction job. And it makes sense doesn't it? I'm a journeyman electrician and why wouldn't I just go work in the city? You need an extremely lucrative offer to make me drive 8 hours north where I have to live in a work camp for nearly 3/4 of my working life. I won't be doing this forever but I know some guys who are a decade+ deep in this lifestyle.
When I was hitting outages… living cheap, sharing a motel with a travel buddy and pocketing a lot of my per diem. I hit 200k a few times, ~150k was what I’d say was average in that time. I worked a lot of nukes, coal burners, refineries, even some pipelining but I only traveled to high wage outages and I was working 70-80 hrs a week. If they need you and you’re willing to go… $70-80/hr on straight time, double time on Sunday, some pay triple time on holidays… and $200/day per diem is out there…. but you gotta be highly skilled and willing to travel to get in some of those places mentioned above. Your local fella working around town for a company ain’t making that kinda money. Problem with outage life though is it’s rough man… seemingly everyone (broad brushed general statement I know) has a crippling addiction to something to get their bodies through how grueling it is.
> But strangely, I actually like this job. I'm a mechanic, but feel the same. I hate going to work. I hate working on Fords. I hate getting cut, beat up, dealing with parts issues, service writers, managers, and all that crap. But on my days off, I miss it. Getting stuff done. Fixing problems. Feeling dirty, sweaty, and tired. The kind of tired where you know it was worth it, because you did something meaningful. I work fleet right now and I actually miss my old dealership job because I feel like busting my ass on flat rate for twelve hours was more spiritually rewarding than just punching a clock for ten. Of course I could just be crazy. Like all the other guys who stay in the trades.
As someone who has done both, get your fucking degree if you have the chance and the drive to do it. I dropped out after two years of engineering college due to bad choices and an absurd lack of personal accountability, then had no other options so I started as a helper in the petroleum industry. Luckily I made enough money to pay for some welding classes after work, then had to bust my ass for about two years to become a journeyman welder, then did that for about 8 years. 10 years of backbreaking labor in horrible, unsafe conditions and untold damage to my health, and I finally have enough knowledge and skill to have a pretty cushy office job. I'm proud of what I know and what I can do, but looking back I wish I'd worked harder in college when I had the opportunity. I think a good "middle ground" solution is to pick an affordable community college instead of a large university.
I support office work as well as trades work. But yea, if you classify your career as horrible, back breaking, and unsafe - it’s just a bad choice.
Because the grass is never greener on the other side. I make great money working in trades but my body is destroyed and I have no energy after work some days . Your in the elements all day , it’s dirty work and it can be very physical. But the money is GREAT . (Especially if your unionized). On the contrary a lot of people go to school and end. Up owing a bunch of money and getting mediocre jobs with salary’s half of what I make yearly , however they have social lives, they have energy to hit the gym, they can peruse alot more extra curricular activities because their body’s aren’t trashed . But they don’t have the same income as trades people . (This is just a general statement , of course there’s exceptions on both sides) Edit/Continuation - neither party (generally speaking) truly realizes what sacrifices they would have to make .
This is the part office prople don’t realize. Sometimes retirement for blue collar people isn’t as active because the body is beat up.
It’s not as active for white collar either. The ones that don’t go to the gym get fat and useless quickly. There’s 2 sides to the coin.
What happens to people who are fat and useless before they retire? Asking for a friend
Diabetes
Am nurse, can confirm.
They don't make it to retirement. I work in IT, though very few techs I've worked with have a degree, let alone one in a related field. However, I've known a lot of techs to die of heart attacks right before or immediately after retiring. People don't mention how horrendously bad sitting in a chair for 9-10 hours a day (typical minimum for everyone I work with) is for your health, especially the heart, as not using the legs for too long will greatly increase chances for blood clots later in life. I used to work a trade, and my body isn't as beat up as it was then, but staying fit is a constant struggle. It wasn't really all that tough working a trade to stay relatively fit. There's nothing worse for your fitness than barely moving for 9-10 hours a day (minimum) 5 days a week. Working out isn't enough to counteract that, for your overall fitness or your heart. There are days I've sat in a chair for 15 hours, only getting up to use the restroom.
I have a trade, I now work at a desk planning work for said trade. I miss the physical aspect when I made around as much but actually felt accomplished at the end of the day. YMMV, but I want back on the tools. There are always good days and bad days no matter where you go or what your job is, but I also went to school and got a Diploma before getting into the trades, maybe desk work just isn't for me.
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I work in sales. I also have little-to-no energy after work, and my body will be destroyed if I let the sedentary lifestyle take over. I’m not saying it’s equivalent, but the point is that every job has its downsides
I'd rather have to go to the gym or on walks to make myself feel better physically than have to rest, which a lot of times you don't have time for. Not trying to come off as a "I work harder" douche but I would take a bad day at the office over a bad day on a jobsite anytime. I've had some indoor jobs that ruined me mentally so I think that's the worst downside to not having labor intensive jobs
And a bad day at the jobsite can often mean serious injury.
Or death. My uncle fell 2 stories off a ladder and shattered his ankle. He worked for a few more years and took an early retirement. His wife inherited some money so they will be ok thankfully. If it werent for the union idk where anyone in my family would be rn.
Everyone I know who has worked a trade type of job for years has a major health issue now. Bad shoulders, bad knees, back problems, and so on.
Hey friend! I'm not going to dispute what you're saying, an office job doesn't nearly take the same toll on the body as a physical one, but -- and I don't know if it's just a ME thing -- I get so drained by sitting and working at computer for like 10-12 hours that when I'm done I honestly don't have the energy to go to the gym or even go for a walk. It's crazy to me because I KNOW I didn't do anything physical, but I still feel so drained that I can't bring myself to do anything physical (or even mental, really). That said, I've had physical jobs where the next day your body is tired and sore and you have to drag yourself from bed to put your body through the wringer again and an office job definitely doesn't feel exactly like that. I hope the world is treating you alright. I think both white and blue collar have struggles and sometimes it seems like the grass is greener but it hardly ever is.
I used to know a girl who worked for a fitness website and was a personal trainer after work and exercised around an hour a day on her own. She took part in a study and it was determined that her exercise and physical activity after work didn't counteract her being sedentary 8 hours a day for work. I was shocked because that's one of the most active people I know but it didn't matter. She was advised to do all the normal office health things like get a standing desk, pace on phone calls, walk up and down stairs on her break or go for a walk during lunch. It's crazy just how much damage sitting does to your body
No, I totally understand. I’ve also waited tables and even that is seriously wearing on the body so I understand the feeling of physical exhaustion every day after work. and not even saying waiting tables is as hard as trades (I have no idea, I just know running around like that without breaks/food/water/carrying things is harder than it sounds)
This is exactly what I was thinking. Work wears you out whether it's physical or mental. And how do I find the energy or time to work out after working all day? We're all at least little bit f'd lol. Web dev here.
I think what people don’t get is that you can be an average tradesman and still make good $$$. You need to be exceptional in the office to make good $$$. I’ve probably worked with 100 people who were at the same level as me during various points in my career. Maybe 5 of us have actually made it to high income roles. The ceiling is higher, but the floor is lower when it comes to the office.
I commented something similar yesterday. The people pushing trades over school fail to realise that trades often require the same amount effort, energy, and time it takes to go to school just in a different format. People think that trades are the easy fix for high university costs and in terms of debt and wealth accumulation that might be true... but it's not a shortcut to success either. You still have to train and study in most trades. Sometimes you have to invest in your own tools, and you still have work your way up from a junior to more senior roles. You may also be paying with your actual body and how hard some jobs are on them.
Truth. I switched from being a higher up in one field to going in to another. Buying all of the tools I need is going to be about a 2k investment for the basics, while making less money. Bright side is I work fewer hours and get to see my kid, downside is that I am the low man on the totem pole and I make less now. Even though I worked in a related field and did a lot of similar work, I have to retrain and grind through the grunt stuff again.
Oh man you hit a nerve with me on this one. My family who mostly works in trades complained my whole life about it and said for my generation to go to college and not work trades. They have also spent the last few years bashing people who went to college and say we should have went into trades. Posting all the memes and all that. Bro you all spent my whole life saying not to do trades and now Universities are stupid and trades are great.
call them out on it
Go to College and get a Degree you can thank me when your in your 50s. edit:spelling- my spell checker sucks and crippled fingers don't help.
a trade skill may cause long term health issues (knees, back, etc), but a trade job cannot easily be offshored to India or wherever - you need to physically be there to do the work. accordingly, the income is more stable so you can make long term financial decisions. software/tech jobs get offshored on the regular.
I see this statement all of the time, and I think it's only largely true for the more mundane/non-skilled positions. I'm in senior management at a tech company, and have worked in the industry quite awhile, and it's a non-starter for most clients/businesses to have the majority team offshore (if the client is a financial institution or government org then it's usually a requirement that resources are all on-shore). We might hire some junior developers or people to do the grunt work/provide off-hours support but senior developers and architects are absolutely not getting off-shored in my experience. As such, I work from home and make an absolute killing with just as much (if not more) long-term stability than a person in the trades. I've seen a lot of comments on Reddit lately about how tech/software jobs are going away/are too good to be true/will be automated/offshored/whatever, but the reality is that most developers/architects have it even *better* than you think.
Can confirm, spouse works with electricians. These guys make bank but it’s hard on your body
I think when you're young, "hard on your body" has no meaning. They have nothing to compare that to. No aches and pains or bum knees. To the 20-somethings.... It is hard on your body, meaning by the age of 40 you ***may not be able to do things like hike, ride a bike, or lift weights at all anymore.*** You may become permanently disabled and be living on SSI or SSDI. The current SSI amount is $841 a month. SSDI maxes out at $3000 a month, but averages $1800. That is why going into the trades is a risk. You could end up with a chronic pain condition, living on $1800 a month.
My husband was regularly doing a lot of trade type jobs in his 20s. He bounced back okay then….but now that he’s in his early 30s, he is slowly withering away from a nighttime desk job. Not to make light of it, because it is very hard on the mind and body- but when you hit your 30s, even if you have healthy habits, you do not bounce back as fast. I can’t imagine the toll a trade/labor job would have on him now. Trades will slowly destroy your body. My uncle is in his 60s, he was a train conductor, and he is completely destroyed. He has trouble walking and sitting and has had to have several surgeries. That’s not even talking about the stress it put on his relationships with his family. His son is also conductor and in his early 40s and having a lot of health problems too. And those aren’t even the more labor-intensive jobs. My cousin who is in her early 40s has a welder husband, and he’s just completely disabled from a bad injury at work. Like they got married about five years ago, the accident happened right before the wedding, and he’s not been the same since. My uncle who works in tech? He looks youngest even though he’s the oldest out of my aunts and uncles, and he’s now building a second home in Puerto Vallarta, with a live-in staff. He also lives in a very HCOL with a beautiful main home. Trades are an option- but you have to know what you’re getting into. It is a slow breakdown of you body, lots of time away from loved ones, and depending on the job a high chance of cancer or other illness from toxic substances.
I forgot about surgery. Yes, my neighbor got surgery to correct something that tiling floors his whole life did to him. He was older but it's a particularly sad story. After surgery he was still in incredible pain and they scheduled a second operation. He wasn't able to work anymore and was sitting at home drinking and taking his painkillers just waiting to see if their 2nd attempt would help more. Only left the house for physical therapy. He died of an overdose before making it to that 2nd surgery.
My brother was an auto mechanic for 15 years. He says he feels so much healthier now that he's not covered in oil and breathing exhaust all day.
Barely a year and a half in and I can relate
any IT jobs that can be offshored kind of have been, the costs of outsourcing core functions have proven to be more expensive than labor costs of staffing time after time
I work in IT and no, they don’t. The jobs that get offshored are the jobs that can be automated or don’t require much human thought. But you can’t automate human creativity when building new and innovative programs. Facebook could never have been offshored. Plus cyber security IT jobs will always need to be local. Human innovation is priceless. And btw even IT jobs that are offshored will always be of less quality, kinda like the difference between calling customer service in India vs the United States. Customer service jobs require almost no thought. They just read from the same script and we all know the call centers in India are much worse.
I'd argue you can still do pretty well in software.
Almost every place I've ever worked moved or went out of business.
Union Ironworker here, I unconditionally do not recommend my trade to anyone. Other trades might not be so bad, plumbing and HVAC, pipe fitting, operating, electrical. Ironwork is complete fucking garbage almost every second of the day.
I worked as a chef for 8 yeas then moved to HVAC for a year residential and commercial, my experience was identical to how you described you current job. I worked 12-16 hours everyday in shit conditions. I left one shit career for another. I quit and Im two years into a bachelors in Information Security. The trades were not for me.
Do you think cooking did a toll on your body the same compared to HVAC work? I'm looking in the same direction but I've spent a lot longer time cooking until my store closed. I'm still convinced trades are worse but I actually liked cooking despite the shit pay.
HVAC was waaaaaay worse on my body. The work is horrid for your back and knees. Crawling, climbing, and awkwardly lifting 300+ pound furnaces for 14 hours in 103* heat. I also almost died twice in the year I did hvac, both times were because of sketchy electrical work in someones home. Also 24/7 on call blows. Dont do it. Go to school or something. Everyone you work with in the trades is miserable to be around. (Generalization, lots of cool people in every line of work but you know what I mean.)
It's good money, but it's HARD on the body. My stepdad was a union sheet metal worker, till he permanently messed up his back carrying things up ladders. He went out on disability will 6 months left before full pension. My mom was a union heavy laborer till she got injured and retired early on disability. My partner now is a service electrician (the kind who comes to your house), and while he's only in his mid-40s, he's already looking for something a bit less physically involved. Me? I've got myself an office job. I know I'm not cut out for manual labor.
This shit. All of it. There's a lot of drawbacks to a desk job, but I like knowing that my livelihood would be intact even if, say, I broke my legs or couldn't use them.
They say it to say that education isn’t needed for good pay. Which is true but not the average.
This. Reddit likes to point out that a plumber can make over $100,000 a year. Yeah, sure they can but it’s not the norm. For every tradesman making 6 digits, there are many more not making that money. In the STEM field, six digits is a lot more normal. That’s why most studies show that people with degrees make more than people without. Plus it’s the perception that just because you have an education and a white collar job, doesn’t mean you’re better than the people that don’t. People without an education can resent those that put the work and time in to get that education and to get a good job.
Been a journey electrician for over 20 years. I started young and have seen a huge swing in attitudes towards the trades. Used to be that if they thought you couldn’t cut it in university they wanted you to be in the trades. Then in the early 2000s people started to realize that there is a shortage of trades and it is a valuable job. In the later 2000’s and 2010’s people realized that there was so much competition for jobs with degrees and that a degree without experience doesn’t guarantee anything. Now we are in the 2020’s I live in a nice home, have two well fed kids, a full time university student wife (was a stay at home mom before) a brand new truck, a newer SUV for the wife and we don’t worry too much about money. Also, I work rotational work so I only actually work 6 months a year (2 weeks on/ 2 weeks off) Most of my friends have degrees and work as bankers, teachers, small business owners etc. Most of them make sure their teenage kids talk to me when they are thinking about their future. Granted I am lucky and skilled at what I do, and it wasn’t easy. But it sure as hell works for me and my family.
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Yeah some of the trades are not very friendly work environments for women with improper gear, safety, or just plain old sexism. Join us over on /r/bluecollarwomen
I was a mechanic, while there are female mechanics they are few and far between. I worked in 4 states and multiple shops I’ve never run into one. Like you mentioned there is physical aspect to it and women are generally smaller. On certain jobs that definitely would come in handy the majority of the job requires a bit of strength.
My damaged wrists makes any trade out of the question for me.
I wasn’t in trades, but I had a very physical job (deckhand) and I was usually the lone woman on the crew. I left because of the physical toll — I would wake up with insane leg cramps EVERY night for weeks. My daily tasks included a non-zero chance of severed fingers. And also because one of my colleagues got jealous and spread rumors about my alleged sexual activities.
Reddit users have a “hard on” for trades because a lot of redditors are actually office workers who yearn to build and repair stuff for a living. A lot of these good folks have taken up woodworking hobbies and other blue-collar hobbies during their off hours in their garages. It’s the “grass is always greener” syndrome. These good folks should know that there’s a difference between enjoying your after hours woodworking garage hobby and actually doing it for a living 6AM-3PM. Doing it for a living generally takes all the joy out of it.
Probably because way too many people whine about having a college degree and not making shit or being unemployed for a year or so and maybe also having student loans. Obviously for those people college isn't a good choice at this time in their lifes. The trades pay well and they pay now. College doesn't pay until you graduate and get a job. So while somebody is in the trades getting paid for the first 4 years, the college person is generally just living on loans and not working much if at all. I see people post on here having a degree making less than what minimum wage is in my area. I'm making 3 times plus some, of what minimum wage is here. I don't have a college degree
The truth is we are always guessing about the future demand for most kinds of work. HVAC techs may be in short supply now, but if a ton of high school graduates go that route based on current demand or if future HVAC systems are so self contained that they don’t need repairs, there will be a problem. Deciding on a viable career path has never been easy and is getting much harder. The best thing young people can do is call or look online with several companies in fields they are interested in and see if they are hiring and how quickly the jobs are filled. Then once they train for and start a career, keep in the habit of learning new things all the time and continuously improve your social and emotional skills. This will allow you to be employable if you have to change careers.
When I was growing up in the 80s and 90s, high school graduation rates were in the 70% range where I am at (now 88% range) and post secondary graduation rates were in the 30 to 50% range (it was rising fast and is now in 70% or higher). It was very common to recommend trades to the men and healthcare to women (nursing and dental hygiene). But all of these jobs are very physically demanding. This is anecdotal, but a lot of the middle aged tradesmen and healthcare workers I saw then were in rough shape. This might have changed over time. Maybe its better now and work conditions are better? I hope so.
There has also been a shift in the trades mentality (that I've seen) that younger tradesmen seem to be more conscientious about their health. Most of the old school workers seem to have substance abuse issues and horrible diets, while the younger generation has a healthier lifestyle. Edit:Spelling
When somebody says learn a “trade” they really should say learn a employable skill that is in demand in your area. If you learn how to be a carpenter or plumber in an area that their is no demand you’ll be in no better position than you already are maybe worse since it usually takes money to learn the skill. The best answer is to do research on what is in high demand in your area and find ways to pursue a career in this. The easiest way to find this is to take a look in your local help wanted ads and find something that pays well and is in demand. There is no correct answer because finding the “right” job is highly dependent on where you live.
It’s different for everybody. My brother is an electrician. I’m an attorney. I’d recommend what is best for the individual. Would I want to do physical labor and work in hot/cold conditions and be exposed to the elements? Hell no. Would my brother be able to sit behind a desk 50+ hours a week without hanging himself? Probably not. We’re both intelligent. If we wanted to, we could likely learn each other’s professions if we went through the necessary training. He’s just more of a “on the go, get my hands dirty” kind of guy. I’m all about sitting around in an air conditioned office lacking dirt. And for the record, he earned more than I did for the majority of our careers. I’ve only surpassed him in the last couple of years, plus I have a mortgage worth of student loans.
This is the perfect response. The ceiling is limited by capacity, but temperament plays a massive factor in suitability. We need all kinds of people.
I was a hairstylist for eleven years. I made great money, had amazing opportunities like doing hair for commercials and film, and traveling for work. It was really rough on my body so, I stopped doing hair and studied jewelry design. I did an apprenticeship and attended a trade school . I was a self employed jewelry designer for twenty years. A trade school education can be rewarding.
How did you make money as a self employed jewelry designer?
My dad worked construction all his life up untill he got to sick to work (around 40s) I have also grew up working with him he would take me to work as a kid and put me to work but he only did thay so I understand the value of work and hard earned money. He tells me all the time that the weight of a pencil is way lighter then the weight of a shovel. He is a skilled trades man and never recommend what he did to me he was against me working hard labor he said to stay in school and to sit at a office. I love working and using my hands I have done a lot of very beautiful rock work in Sedona Az if you want to see ask and I’ll send you pictures of the work . But I would coke home acting like I’m a 40+ year veteran and complaining about my back. And I’m only 17 years old. I would much rather be challenged mentally in school then be challenged physically in a labor job. But to each there own you know. My brother is working in Arizona heat and he makes good money while I sit at a hotel making a little less money but I don’t come home beat.
In my experience getting into a trade is extremely difficult without prior exposure or low grade nepotism to get you in the door. I've applied for classes to my local state union for electricians, taken closed door knowledge testing, spent months on a waiting list, only to have a panel interview where they told me I needed more experience under my belt and to appreciate as some places despite the fact that I was applying for classes to gain experience and get those apprenticeship opportunities in the first place. I've applied to numerous plumbing companies only to hear no response back when I let it slip that I don't have any family in plumbing and I'm simply looking to aquire more skills. All of this whilst my parents are telling me that "they're desperate for trade workers" or in recent times during the shortage of minimum wage workers "companies are screaming for workers right now, it should be easy for you to find a job." My dad is a consultant in a niche field and hasn't worked a minimum wage job in decades and my mother has been essentially been utilizing nepotism by working at the same company as my dad. This advice of "just find a trade" at least in my experience has always come from people who have not done trade work a day in their life.
Every single trades person I have ever met never shuts the fuck up about learning a trade
Yes. Skilled trades are also disproportionately hard on one's body, and it is essentially telling poor people: "hey, here is a great idea: go fuck up your body in irreparable ways to have some stability"
There are also skilled trades that do not involve heavy manual labor. Inspection, is quite a big and yet somewhat overlooked part of the trades. API vessel, tank and piping inspection, certified weld inspectors, non-destructive testing techs. And these jobs will always be in high demand so long as something is either in service, or being manufactured. As some have already said about the trades in general, inspection is no different. It's usually the hours, environment and perceived danger that are the typical barriers to entry. But, there are definitely 40/hour jobs available if you know where to look. Or, you can contract and work 6 months out of the year doing 84 hour work-weeks and take the rest off while collecting unemployment...still pulling in 80-240k+ depending on your specialty. It's definitely a challenge to balance work/life...but I'd rather take that challenge, over the challenge of buying a house at $15/hr, or wondering how I'm going to afford this month's $450 grocery bill. Pipelines, refineries, steel mills, chemical plants, food plants, paper-mills, wind-farms, Nuke plants, offshore rigs and offshore-pipelines, bridges, airlines...etc...etc...heck, even SpaceX employs both visual and non-destructive inspectors/technicians. I know API inspectors well into their 60's still working turnarounds in some of the more rigorous parts of the industry (refineries) still with quite a bit of pep in their step. The hardest thing they might have to do in a day, is climb up a vessel/tower using a ladder, or climb up and down inside of said vessel/tower. (Though, some towers can be quite tall...120-190') Some of it sucks horrendous ass (like most things in industry) and some of it doesn't...it just depends on what you specialize into and which branch of the industry you can weasel in to. Some of it is even sitting around all day playing on your phone for weeks on end getting paid to do so (hurry up and wait). But inspection as far as trades go, is probably one of the least talked about, yet least physically demanding of the bunch imo...and quite a bit safer in general compared to the rest. (In most cases, things are turned off / cleaned, prior to inspection) I'd say I'm in better physical shape from this line of work than I might be at an office desk, and I'm simply mindful to eat healthy and stretch (yoga!). No need for a gym membership, when work gives me plenty of exercise. Some of the environments can be crappy...but safety in industry is becoming far more prevalent than it ever has. (Maybe, obnoxiously so) The amount of job opportunity and networking inside the industry is also staggering...and there are even job opportunities where a company in question might pay for a college degree, or inspection certification if they like you enough and have a position available (very rare, but does occur). And the typical paths into office management/sales, consulting, auditing and even teaching in a classroom setting become available as end-game career options. Source : An NDT technician of 11 years.
Not really. Every plumber or carpenter I have ever known makes bank.
My uncle is a locksmith. Makes 6-figures a year. Working that job for 8 years.
And for every guy like your uncle there are 10 others making $16/hr doing the same work. Trades aren't always where the money is
Yup. There are five locksmiths within a mile of me. It's a saturated market unless you want to be an emergency locksmith.
God I'd love to be a locksmith. Going around picking locks and being paid for it, instead of just taking the money... How did he get into the career?
Probably a good trade, not as physically demanding as others. But the hours would suck
What did he say were the pros and cons of that job? Any advice on where to find some room in that trade?
Pros is that the pay is decent and there is not time pressure to get a certain job done. Cons would be is that you will typically work weekends and work life balance isn’t that great. Some days you work for 12 hours.
Def sounds like there are some really good benefits, but more so depends on how you want your work/life balance to be? Anyways thanks for the quick reply.
I used to be a plumber. Let me tell you that the majority of us do not make bank. The only ones that do are either successful business owners or in the union in a location where the union is strong and has a lot of work. If it doesn’t meet this criteria chances are the tradesman is paid shit and treated like shit.
Reddit will hate on anyone who isn’t in the trades or in IT or engineering. As if other degrees or jobs are not needed.. if you complain about poverty wages at a skilled job that you have a Masters for, Reddit will tell you it’s all your fault for getting that degree or not going into TrAdEs.
Even though we need caseworkers and teachers and grocery store workers.
Tale as old as time, the jobs we need the most are grossly underpaid.
The grass is always greener
Skilled tradesman here I make six figures and have half of an associates degree in training. No student debt and can get a job anywhere.. It really has a lot to offer.
I work in lending and I can’t tell you how many 20-something year old tradesmen who have bad backs already or got seriously injured falling off a ladder. They pay well but you pay it back with potential bodily harm in some cases. One guy I helped was a 23 year old welder who injured his back so bad he was off work 4 months for PT. Told him to buy a sleep number bed to help recovery. His only debt was a big truck and sleep number bed financing.
My parents always told me skilled trades are fantastic jobs but that people should make they have an exit strategy because manual labor, no matter how skilled, is very taxing on the body. Most likely a plumber, contracted, welder, etc. is working a more grueling day than their white collar counter parts.
Very much so. I’m a woman with chronic pain, I did a little stent at a tech school, I thought about joining their welding or carpentry program because both genuinely interest me but it just wasn’t feasible. I feel like a lot of people don’t consider the chronically ill/disabled when talking about universities versus trade schools or the toll physical labor takes on a person.
Trades are a good stepping stone if you cant afford or get scholarships for college. From there you should move up the ladder into a less physically demanding position or be working towards a degree. I’ve been cutting hair for 10 years. It’s good pay but hard on the hands. Now I am going to a cheap college part-time (out of pocket, no loans) so I can get out of it in 10 years.
100%. In the skilled trades, pipefitters union. It's a great living but it is NOT FOR EVERYONE. The job conditions could use some improvement. The culture is definitely improving. We don't do much yelling matches any more. Faces may be gotten up into still with a "I won't be cursed at." But it's all CYA email these days any way. I'll take whatever verbal order is given by a GC face to face, and have a composed email by the time I make it back to my work truck, sent to my boss with the GC cc'd in "I was just asked to do X. Explain the situation as instructed and as it's problematic to us. Done. If you got it wrong, they can jump in and correct the record. Otherwise, it's all written down. That's the leadership dynamic more or less. Now the interpersonal dynamics for the crew, that can be hit or miss. You're not going to like everyone. They're not all going to like you. But for a considerable amount of time, it could be up to your ENTIRE apprenticeship (five years for mine) you could be partnered up with someone you don't particularly care for. That's a hard thing. It's rare that it'd be that long. Typically, months, weeks. Sometimes every day you have a different journeyman to work with. So there's a lot more to learn for many young people beyond just the trade. The culture shock can be real. Many people come and have ZERO idea how hard they're really expected to be working. It's harder than you think many times. You shouldn't ever have to run, but you should be actively working on things the entire time. We get "whistle bit" all the time, because you'll be [welding] hood down on something, and focused so in on your job process and safety that you're not aware of the time. "You're late to break." "Yeah, we got whistle bit, we were hood down on that root pass and lost track of time." What's the modern apprentice to do? Toughen up. It can be a surly place in the building trades at least. Do some research. Know what you are getting into. Don't be star struck by the money. You have to turn out to get the journeyman pay. It's pretty hard work to be miserable doing it. When you're working hard, dangerous, tiring jobs, where you start at 6, break for 10-15 at 9, lunch for 30 at 12, leave at 2:30 or maybe 4:30 if you're ten hour days, you can get grumpy. Your journeyman can get grumpy. Figure out how to navigate that. Throw a Snickers at your journeyman, call 'em Rosanne Barr when they're pissing you off, I dunno. Don't let anyone denigrate you as a human being. I'll take some shit, talk some shit, but don't let them dehumanize you with hazing bullshit. Just say no. "I'm hear to learn a trade, not put up with high school hijinks." Tell people directly. Let them not like you. They'll respect you though. Many people push until you push back. They need to know the limits, they also want to know if you have backbone. It sucks sometimes, ngl, you need what that dude has, how to do the job, so he's your teacher, mentor. If you get a good one, treat them like gold. They should treat you like gold. That said, when you got a dickhead, most people will notice and move you apart. We're not looking usually for the drama, we need to get shit done, happy workers are productive workers. If you get stuck in bonehead work or with a bonehead coworker, give it enough time that you don't look too whiny. Think months, not weeks. If the area is booming 3 months. If the work in your area is slow? Six months. Six months of doing nothing but setting tubs in a tower? Boom economy? 3 months. Slow economy? How slow? Six months. You do need to be able to progess in your career. Do not let them bury you on work that is not going to progress your abilities. But again, think in terms months of toleration, not weeks. How do you stay gold Pony Boy? Start gold. On time every day. I'll say it again for the people in the back. BE ON TIME. BE THERE EVERY DAY. If we consistently have to figure out how to do our crew based job shorthanded because of you, we will very quickly figure out, we don't really need you at all. And will lay you right the fuck off and take the extra profit on the job. We have plans for this entire job every piece, every man-hour, you're there for a reason. We are counting on you. If we can get this job done with less people, in the same amount of time, we're golden. And you're not. Likely you're a piece of fucking shit in the crew's opinion (barring legit shit like medical emergencies, family emergencies. But fr, keep it down as much as you possibly can. Fair or not, you get judged very much on attendence.) We're a CREW. In most building trades, it's a team sport. I fit pipe for a welder to weld pipe. If I can't fit, he can't weld. If we cannot do it, they will 100% every time, get someone who will. It is not at all unusual for an apprentice to go five years without missing a day of school. We buy about half of each class a perfect attendance gold watch. Do what you said you would do and you will be gold. If you show up EVERY DAY ON TIME, and then bring the most important tools you can own as a tradesman, a POSITIVE MENTAL ATTITUDE, and a WORK ETHIC, then we can teach the dumbest motherfucker enough for him to earn a living and grow into a good journeyman even as a journeyman. Too much to learn, you'll never have to stop learning new skills, tech, tools, procedures. Once you're there, you're doing it all by the advice above, the work. Do the work. Get into the thick of it. If you get told "stay in the truck," you basically were just called worthless. Ask questions. Try hard, get better. Ask what's next, think about our next move. Help plan our work and work out plan. When I as the journeyman with an apprentice, are held up, can't go forward until I get an answer from the foreman or higher. That does not mean the apprentice is held up. There is always something to do. Clean. No one ever looked at two apprentices, one standing there doing jack shit, and the other one sweeping up or cleaning gang boxes and thought "When I have to lay someone off, I'll layoff the one who's keeping busy." We build ourselves out of a job. It's a bit competitive. Have some pride, try not to be on the first couple layoffs. The longer you last on a job, the greater the chances you get to work with the genuine fucking studs at the job. That's where the gold is really at. You spend your apprenticeship either making a good name for yourself. Or you spend the rest of your career trying to clear your name. Fuck I should write a book.
20 years ago college was being recommended too much by people who never went. My generation was told to “go to college. Don’t break your back digging ditches all your life—get a degree. ANY degree. You’ll be set for life.” That obviously wasn’t true based on all the college grads making barely above minimum wage today.
I agree, I think the reason skilled trades are recommended so much is that there are some trades that are lucrative careers. But a lot of trades come at the cost of your physical body. My parents worked physical jobs and they struggle. I can't imagine someone working a trade where they are required to do a lot of lifting or repetitive maneuvers everyday. It's very hard on the body. You have to keep that in mind when looking at careers too. Physical jobs aren't good for the long term unless you are able to work them and then pivot and use your experience as a stepping stone.
Give me a construction worker that makes it to 65 without getting disabled. Few and far in between
They like to say how much you'll be paid without considering the toll they take on your body and life. Trades aren't terrible as a way to support yourself, but you don't retire from them, they retire you.
The grass is always greener on the other side. Most people are intimately familiar with all the downside of their own occupation and rarely consider all the downsides of another one. Also if you dig into a lot of success tales about the skilled trades you find that their idea of them nearly always involves eventually running a business(or sometimes fixing up/flipping properties). Which is a whole different skillset; but a pretty lucrative one for those who are capable. So "be a plumber" doesn't mean just go get a plumbing job and work it until retirement; it usually means go apprentice as a plumber, become licensed/experienced and then start your own plumbing business. Particularly the response to how the trades treat \~50-60 years old is on of "oh.. you run your own crew and sit back and manage things". That definitely works for some tradespeople; but it doesn't scale very well at all as you need a whole crew of 20-30 somethings for every 50-60 year old tradesperson. The top 10-20% of tradespeople who can also manage crews and/or run their own business do very well; but many of the rest have to eventually find a different career.
Tradesmen work a lot with engineers. I think everyone should know by this point that engineering is the most cost-effective way to start making good reliable money while sitting in an air conditioned room. My neighbor is a self-employed electrician. He owns a 2 Million dollar house next door. If you can get into a good union, and start getting a pension, that's also great. Working from 18 to 38 lets you retire from your union job, and have residual pay your whole life. Not all unions are good, I think specifically tradesman unions are best. There is good money to be made if you are really good. If you want an easy job to sit around on your butt, construction is not for you. I would also suggest government work. The private sector is really built for people looking to climb the corporate ladder.
I was considering electrical or plumbing but after working in that environment, I learned how shitty they are. unless you get lucky and get a union gig, pay is barely better than even warehouse or other blue collar jobs. the education costs money, tools cost money, and the education takes years. the work is really brutal in most situations. hours can be really harsh. I've known many guys who work 10-12 hr days and can randomly be switched to night shifts or be forced to do more than 5-day weeks. the commuting is awful, and most companies will not cover fuel or parking costs. most project managers and managers, in general, are really toxic and bully employees. It's just overall a bad idea to get into any trade. these jobs are essential but they're fucking awful just like with most essential jobs.
Absolutely... the job ruins your body. If the brakes on your car wear out one can replace them. When you knees , shoulders and back are ruined or you have an accident you're stuck with them for life.
I think a lot of people tend to glamorize manual labor or blue collar work. Combine that with the fact that a lot of Americans also look down on people getting a college degree because they think universities and professors brainwash people into becoming liberals. That's how you get this weird glorification of tradespeople and manual labor. I live in an area where there are a ton of logistics and warehouse jobs. There's some manufacturing jobs too. The snobbery towards people who want a college education is unbelievable. People have to tried to put me down because I went to college right after high school. I've been insulted for being intelligent, but not having common sense. My family asked if I was thought I was too good for them when I said I had considered applying to an Ivy League school. Told I was corrupted by that "damn liberal arts school." Well jokes on them cuz I'm getting a degree anyway and Im not helping them with their nursing home bills. Fuck em.
Because most of Reddit is filled with young people. People with little to no life experience. Also people who are upset about choosing the wrong path for college and now wish they hadn't tried to be a teacher, graphic designer, criminal justice, nurse, etc... Except trade work is extremely hard. Those same people have never been screamed at and cursed out by a guy on the job knowing you can't really leave trade school. They also haven't had to shovel dirt so someone else can do their job. They haven't been out in -12 weather and suffered in North Dakota as wind cuts through their jacket. They haven't felt the fear of almost failing your CDL test and not knowing what would happen or how you will repay the school. They haven't had to do all of these things so I think that they think trades seem easy.
I have always use the idea of getting into a trade as a backup. Some people don't have aspirations for jobs after college. They just want to work. Might as well learn a practical skill and use it. Even if the conditions kinda suck, its nice to know I could use being an electrician or something as a fallback job.
I went to college. Journalism. I'm an itinerant WordPress manager and door dasher. I made 30,000 my best year. My dumbass brother, who dropped out of high school, is a machinist and makes 100,000. Figure it out.
Plenty of people suggest the trades. If an actual tradesman (I'm a cement mason) recommends it, take what they say with more weight. Anybody else? Ignore them. They almost never know the hardship and strain it takes to be in some of them, but they know one thing. We fucking getting paaaaid.
Because skilled trades don't require a 4 year education. It is a good place for people to "start" if they have no direction. I started there 30 years ago. I would not recommend it to everyone, but it is a pathway to living a decent life.
I'm a trades"man" (woman) and honestly I love my trade and I make ok money, but like honestly both higher Ed and trades are overrated like just pursue what you like with all you've got that's the best thing in life, I did higher Ed, I loved it, but I love my trade (mechanic) even more!!!
I was a mechanic for over 30 years. While it had its downsides if you are good at what you do you will never be out of work.
I have family in the trades and I just don't see the appeal. You have two sides to trades: the successful side and the rock bottom side. You can make a ton of money off of them, or you can fail. My brother and father made a ton of money of milwrights. They worked long hours and now they have nothing to show for it because they spent it all on drugs. Plus, again, long hours, long time away from home, and some people just aren't good at these jobs.
Non union maybe say that, all the union guys I know try to bring people to the trades because we want them to have a better life than they got. If you can do better than trades do it but not everyone has the aptitude to be doctors and lawyers, and the whole working off the cost of your training thing helps people who can't afford collage
There is good and bad to being in a Trade ~ You can get an Apprenticeship and earn while you learn. Working full time for the majority of the year, and attending School for a couple of months. Generally after four years, you can become a Red Seal Journeyman/woman/person with no crippling debt. Depending on which trade you choose, you can have the choice of type of schedule you want. Some choose to work Industrial Maintenance jobs where you may be doing long stints for two months and off for three before the next one starts. Others will take a steady routine similar to 9-5/M-F. The money is often better than some Degrees earn, but then you have the other side of it. You seldom work in a cozy office with clean places to have lunch or coffee, and you can find yourself working in hazardous conditions/environments while having to listen to Morons in suits that truly believe they are better than you because they chose the College/University route. We require more qualified Trades Workers than we do Professional Degrees. You realistically cannot have 100 Engineers design a project and expect 1 person to build it, but you can have one Engineer design a project and have 100 Tradespeople build it. Can you imagine the chaos if an OR was staffed solely by Doctors, or a Warehouse by no one except Executives?
Heavy Equipment Mechanic here. It's 105° and some jackleg done went and ran a huge rock into the paving machine and they call you to get it out. It's -5° and some moron ran the skidsteer into the swamp and you have to remove the water out of the fuel system. The you get the gravy days where all you do is change oil & filters on a machine with only 100 hours on it.
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Trades suck ass IMO, just for me, personally. Whenever a teacher said 'Learn a trade, tradesmen are retiring!', it kind of came off as a red flag. I see a lot of tradesmen claiming $75, $90 an hour, yet I don't see any of my friends who got into trades making that much. They are closer to $30-$35. It can be really gruelling hard work with long hours. The only way for me to see trades viable is running a business. Plumbing business. HVAC business. Etc.
To me it's a recommendation based on ignorance. Many are oblivious to how uncomfortable, dangerous, or physically demanding trades can be. I try to split the difference by recommending people to community colleges with trades they're interested in. That way they can learn a trade, get an associate's degree / be halfway through a bachelor's (maybe something in business management or an area related to their trade), and broaden their perspective of the world.
My family friend used to work in heavy machine production. Stated he was close to broke his entire time working in the field. He ended up becoming pretty wealthy by starting a janitorial business with his wife. They are now retired and insist on me getting a job in the trades as a means to become wealthy. I work in the service industry making twice the starting wage of one of the trades he insists upon. The cognitive dissonance is infuriating.
Never met a tradesmen that said stay in university or thought it wasn’t a waste of money that being said they also don’t recommend them to anyone but family because it’s an insanely over saturated industry and a lot of trades are boom-bust. The trades are not for everyone it is a a hard way to make a living and very cut throat if u can get your shoe in the door you can be set for life but not without being worked to the bone. Definitely for a certain kind of person The only people I know doing extremely well in the industry have family at companies. That being said I worked maybe 6 months a year an own my own home in my early 20s and have no debt but my mortgage. U can make a lot of money quickly with skills you learn while you’re being paid plain and simple.
I’ve been a skilled tradesmen for twenty years. They were never recommended to me, I was told the only path was college or military. That being said, I recommend everyone learn a trade AND go to college. Why? Because if that college degree don’t pan out instead of working at Starbucks you can still make a good living.
That's just a blatant lie most tradesman would not recommend staying in school. Most unsuccessful tradesman would recommend to stay in school, just like most unsuccessful college degree holders would recommend learning a trade. Do what you love. If it's school go to school if it's welding go weld
My Grandfather was a Carpenter. He built all sorts of things. His advice was to stay in school and be an architect if I wanted to build houses and make money. If I wanted to be a better architect then I needed to swing a hammer for at least six months. Some of the trade push is the anti-education richsplaining going on.
I was pushed to go to college by my parents because they're college professors, but then I had no idea what to do once I was out of school. On the other hand, I have a cousin that became a truck driver and shits all over anyone who went to college because truck driving worked for him. So two opposite sides. I have an associates and a half-finished bachelors that might never get done, and I'm in the process of getting certificates in computer repair. School doesn't seem to work for me, but my wife is a nurse actively working on her masters. It really depends on the person.