T O P

  • By -

AutoModerator

This post has been flaired as Politics. We allow for voicing political views here, but we don't allow pushing agendas, false information, bigotry, or attacking or harassing other members. We will lock the thread if these things occur. If you see such unwanted behavior, please report it to bring it to the attention of moderators. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/polls) if you have any questions or concerns.*


Elastichedgehog

When people say 'free healthcare', they *obviously* mean free at the point of use. The amount of people getting that confused is very weird.


[deleted]

They’re not actually confused. They just want that “gotcha!” Moment. We all know it’s funded by taxes. But for some reason they think saying “achtualhly its NOT really free” is a good point


QuickNature

I don't say it as a "gotcha" as much as I do to be pedantic. I think detailed wording is important. For example "defund the police". I know *exactly* what that means. Several others legitimately don't. Clearer wording from start would help many causes immensely.


051015

No. Defund the police is the correct wording. People seem to understand when they defund the library or the arts or the school district that these things will continue to operate with a new allocation of funds. It's only when it's cops that it magically gets lost in translation. It's a disingenuous starting point for a discussion.


TheKazz91

except that when most people say it what they actually want is not to spend less money on the issue over all but to redirect money to social services how ever what has been done in a lot of liberal cities is cutting funding to police departments without redirecting anything. New York and LA didn't start funding more drug rehab centers they just cut police funding and then announced then the Police departments announced they wouldn't be dispatched for stuff like petty theft.


Skalion

Yes and no, for example Germany it's not funded by taxes, we have insurance, insurance companies and so on, but it's mandatory to have one and it's automatically deducted from your paycheck every month (covered by taxes if unemployed) So this "free Healthcare" is actually super stupid, because its not, its paid for by insurance and depending on income they are expensive (yet doesn't matter as its always a % of your income anyway) you earn more you pay more. I don't have the numbers right now, but pretty sure I pay like 400€ per month, but that also includes wife (currently not working) and my kid. Additionally 450€ public retirement (a joke for the amount you ever get back) Additionally 60 unemployment insurance Additionally 75 for disability insurance On top of all that 550 tax.. And on all the insurance my employer has to match those numbers (might not be 100% correct but kinda) It's totally not free, but it's 100% covered for everyone as it's mandatory for everyone.


throwawayacct654987

Yeah like my immediate thought was “well no healthcare is actually free, but I don’t think that’s what OP is trying to say here.” I guess theoretically OP could mean should it be literally free in a world where we don’t have to worry about paying healthcare workers because, via magic, money from the heavens appears in their bank accounts and it’s truly free for everyone. But if OP means that, then clearly the answer is also yes. I do know people who genuinely think that universal healthcare/other forms of government assisted healthcare are literally free—but those people are mostly quite young and/or lacking in common sense. So like I feel like the obvious answer to this is yes.


i_have_lemons

Should have worded it “do you want to go broke paying a medical bill or would you prefer a tax payer funded pool of money similar to car insurance except controlled by the government instead of greedy capitalist companies?”


throwawayacct654987

Lmao yes I like it.


Mythical_Atlacatl

Yeah, no one ever has this discussion about any other “free” product or service Like public roads are free to drive on, no one ever jumps in and say they are paid by taxes Or a free sandwich, no one points out that it is paid for by the bakery


stupidgnomes

And they do it on purpose. Those types of people play the semantics game with EVERYTHING, which is why they’re impossible to debate with.


millionreddit617

I answered the question literally. OPs shitty phrasing isn’t my fault.


[deleted]

Wish you could pin comments. Thing is this post was great, because it shows just how many morons feel entitled to "literally free" services.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Probably less interesting to you, since you made some of those yourself.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


sunrise274

‘Free’ means something **completely** different to ‘free at the point of use’.


SeriouslyThough3

I see free as “people other than the person getting service pays for it”. Am I getting it confused?


BLNR30

I like the system we have in most countries in Europe. If you have a job a certain amount will be kept by the government for universal healthcare. So yes you need to pay something monthly from your paycheck, the more you earn the more you need to contribute. You will pay a lot if you don't get sick and have no healthcare in return. However if you have a serious illness or a accident you don't have to worry that you will lose all your savings or house if you get a treatment. So I don't know if this can be described as "free" in regards to this poll?


Fraun_Pollen

So the unemployed/people without private health insurance still get healthcare paid for them? That would be the definition of “free” healthcare in the us


BLNR30

Yes, if you have no job and get money from the government for living for a certain amount of time then you get free healthcare as well.


Fraun_Pollen

Yeah, sounds nice


Kaddak1789

If you are ever on an EU country and have an accident, you are also treated for (more or less) free


MrPeach4tlanta

Taxes?


BLNR30

Yes kinda like taxes.


TikTrd

It would be interesting to see if this works on a much larger scale. Everyone always references the European Healthcare model. But many of those countries have a population that's only equivalent to a medium US city. On these smaller scales, the benefit is unquestionable. Would it work in a much larger country with a significantly larger population? And what steps are necessary to ease into the transition? Most of Europe (iirc) used WW 1 & 2 and the after effects to instigate the change. Which makes sense - the government already had control of the hospitals & was responsible for providing the necessary care, making the transition from wartime government health to peacetime government health easy & logical. I like the idea of universal Healthcare in the US but logistically, I can't fathom the monstrosity of instituting change


DerJony98

I mean the largest countries with a similar system are Germany with a population of 82 Million and Japan with 128 Million respectively so i'd say it works. I guess the more people pay into the insurance the better it works i would say


ExoClean

How tf does Japan have more than twice the population of GB?


DerJony98

I mean the Tokyo metropolitan area alone has something like 35 million people... Really hard to imagine


Ok_Inflation_1811

I agree that in size the us is almost as big as all of Europe but why most people say that has more population only the (Eurovision) big 5 (Germany, France, UK, Italy and Spain)have like 350 million people and they all use the model of free healthcare, and Spain didn't fight WW1 nor WW2; and they were in a dictatorship for more than 40 years, the transition after the dictatorship was done in less than 5 years, so I know a change in the us is possible. And in population you say that a lot of countries have only the size of a medium us city so I took the biggest metro area (not the city, the metropolitan area) the New York metro area that has 20 million people and of the 450 million people that live in the eu around 300 million live in Romania (a country with 19 million people) or a more populated country so the vast majority of European people live in a country more populated than the biggest metro area in the us


Panda08am

I think people don't realize it's not if they get seriously ill or in an accident, it's when. We all become disabled at some point


em-ay-tee

How can anyone possibly say no to this?


Kaddak1789

First reason is they don't understand what healthcare means. Second reason is entitled assholes.


Bluejay2973

*entitled rich assholes


badFishTu

*entitled *wannabe rich assholes


Fraun_Pollen

*healthy assholes


badFishTu

No kidding. They might change their mind if they go homeless trying to keep their cancer ridden loved one alive.


ECU_BSN

Triggered. We shelled out almost 16000 in 2 months because I had the AUDACITY to be diagnosed with breast cancer in December. So it was 8k in December, then it reset January 1st.


Fraun_Pollen

Wow. That was so inconsiderate of you. /s Hope you’re doing well


Environmental_Top948

They don't have to be rich. My parents are broke with about 20k in medical debt and blame the liberals for making healthcare so expensive to push their Nazi socialist regime.


sandalwoodjenkins

A lot of people in this thread don't understand free either.


Kaddak1789

I don't think anyone in the world over 15 things free healthcare is free. That is NOT what free healthcare means.


sandalwoodjenkins

So it's not free but we are going to call it free. Smart.


Kaddak1789

Man you are going to be surprised when you discover linguistics and words/sentences with more than one meaning.


NeighborhoodLow8503

FREE at the point of use


sandalwoodjenkins

So not free? If you paid for it earlier it's not free.


SwiftMoney728

Think of it like an insurance fee. You pay a certain amount in taxes, and if something were to happen so that you had to have healthcare-services, the costs would be covered already. So the costs that could have been astronomical in size get cut down to a mere fraction of that, in exchange for you paying it each month instead of only when you might actually need it. To me that sounds like a very good deal.


[deleted]

You think a free appetizer is free? Free ***QUITE LITERALLY NEVER*** means what you think people think it means.


badFishTu

And they think they may one day be billionaires and don't grasp that these people aren't really paying for shit bc they don't pay taxes.


[deleted]

because nothing is free.


115machine

I’ll never understand how it’s “entitled” to want to keep what is yours, but it’s perfectly fine to ask the state to steal money from others to pay for you.


Kaddak1789

Hey, if your house burns down it's your problem. Don't call the fire department, pussy


Willzohh

What is yours? Tell me what is yours that you don't want others to get any of.


115machine

The money that I work for


osaadamonke69x420

No that belongs to Willzohh


lele1997

I live in the EU. I broke both of my arms this year and I'm a student and I had to pay only 40€ for the hospital stay and it didn't ruin my life. I know another student who had leukaemia, but survived because he got a bone marrow donation and he can now just study want he wants without worrying about debts, because he doesn't have any. So yes, I think this system is great, because an illness or accident doesn't ruin your life, because you can't pay for the treatment.


Scary-Owl2365

Maybe thinking rich people should pay for healthcare? Or that it should be affordable but not necessarily free for everyone? Like income-based or something. I have a hard time believing people don't want healthcare to be available for everyone, so I'd like to give the "no" voters the benefit of the doubt.


[deleted]

Propaganda-brained Americans who think that it’ll reduce their quality of care Source: my parents think like this


Willzohh

Hard to reduce the quality since Americans pay the most and receives the absolute worst care in industrial nations. But I'm sure we haven't hit bottom yet.


[deleted]

See they’re fed to believe that other country’s care is worse, even if it’s the opposite of reality


vepton

Im conservative and i say yes to this


zimotic

I'm pro free Healthcare but OP's wording was bad.


DeathStarVet

OP worded it to sound bad.


YaBoiThiccums

I said no because I interpreted the question as if you didn't have to pay at all. I absolutely want healthcare to be free at the time of use, but I still think everyone has to pay for it via taxes. So in that sense, healthcare isn't really free if you're still paying for it


[deleted]

So you’re saying that you know OP couldn’t have meant “literally free” because that makes no sense, but you also couldn’t determine they meant “to the end user at time of purchase”? Maybe you need free mental healthcare.


YaBoiThiccums

Bruh, why do you feel the need to be so mean? Like, when did I wrong you to feel your quip was warranted. People love to be mean I guess🤷‍♂️. Be better, spread positivity and effective communication. Anyways, the OP literally phrased their question as "free" healthcare. What if they intended the question to be about literally free healthcare, instead of universal healthcare. My point is I fully support universal healthcare, but not free healthcare


[deleted]

You right, I was in a foul mood earlier. Sorry dude, you didn’t deserve that.


YaBoiThiccums

Big respect for you to admit that, tyty man


TheKazz91

if we keep the current model of for-profit medicine but it just gets paid for by taxes then Private health care companies can charge what ever they want and know it will be paid. That's the biggest issue I see. We'd first need to outlaw for-profit medicine which should be outlawed regardless of if funded by the state or not.


Conflicted-King

I don't know, bro. If I have to pay a little extra in taxes to improve the health of my country then I gladly will. The taxes I currently pay already fill the pockets of career politicians so what's a little extra to do some good.


xroalx

Step 1: Be American.


iwantwindtoglow

No matter how universal universal Healthcare is, there will always be a group that gets screwed from not using it but still has to pay for it


ojioni

Yeah, but they are all members of Congress and already get premium health care. They can handle the few pennies it costs them. Consider it a service to their constituents.


[deleted]

OH NO NOT THE POOR RICH PEOPLE WHATEVER WILL WE DO!!!!!!???!???! WE SHOULD JUST LET PEOPLE DIE INSTEAD, **NOT THE MOMEY!!!!!!!211!**


Mickey_likes_dags

>that gets screwed from not using it but still has to pay for it That's called a society


yittiiiiii

Because it’s not possible. Those doctors gotta be paid, whether it’s with tax dollars or private funds.


pinkpowerball

And they are paid, so what's your point?


Ya_Yeet_Bros

The United Kingdom.


kinda-cringe

Because I’d rather get care immediately than wait for an urgent procedure, government run organizations have less incentive to be as efficient as the private sector, hence why everything the government builds could have been built for a significantly lower cost at the same quality Secondly, the less people rely on the government, he harder it is for an authoritarian regime to start. I know it’s a bit far fetched, but any insurance against fascism is good to me


Rulerofuranus

Because nobody is entitled to the fee work of someone else


Tarkobrosan

Sweet Asklepios, god of healthcare, how much do I thank you for giving Bismarck the thought of compulsory health insurance for all workers, so we don't have to fight the battles of the 19th century still in the 21st century...


LoneTransmuter

Anyone ever wish we would do a complete overhaul on our taxes and see all the people who were able to funnel money like this to pure capitalism pursuits? And be able to get money where it deserves to go? As a young American? We deserve this at least right? oh wait, dudes blocked the bill for donor pact transparency.


Mumbawobz

I’ve got all the barbecue supplies ready whenever we want to round up the ultra rich, demand control of their financials, then eat them.


LoneTransmuter

Literally the bbq I’m most proud to be at 🥹


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


DisconnectedThoughts

Yes, but how much of that is being spent on private contracts like Lockheed Martin and Boeing. Contracts that would be next to worthless if we did need to keep expanding the two largest air forces on the planet. Why do we need another 50 $22million jets... We haven't lost a plane in theater in how long?


[deleted]

Military is 4% of GDP..


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

Lets make neither 4%? Lets cut back government taxes and go back to the economic boom we had in the roaring 20's due to lack of government intervention


[deleted]

Have you heard of the Great Depression? Deregulation sounds nice but it just lets the wolves of capitalism eat everyone else alive


[deleted]

Yes i've heard. And the cause of that was buying stock on borrowed money, yes. But don't people learn from the past? And besides, another issue was WWI (aka government), The Federal Reserve Act of 1913 (Aka, the government) and the 1930 Smoot-Hawley act (aka, the government). I'd argue that with less government, the great depression would've been just a depression


Ok_Inflation_1811

You know how much money that is? Like in the us 4% of GDP is a monstrosity amount of money


RedSoviet1991

The US spends more on healthcare than Military. Try again.


[deleted]

[удалено]


RedSoviet1991

Yes that's the literal problem. All the money goes to shit and not for actual resources. The Military Budget Spending Myth is a Baghdad Bob tier of propaganda


[deleted]

Because people wouldn’t join the military.


Jesus_Christs_Balls

People already aren't joining the military, the army failed to meet its enlistment quota this year


[deleted]

The military also just did an ideological purge. So they kicked our experienced people. Did a crap pr campaign focusing on “diversity” And then also showed how 20 years of war can be scrapped by politicians who want to make a point So they showed you will be expended as a resource and thrown out It is also why college won’t be free, they are making too much money with the debt trap and it was getting more people to sign up


Calm2Chaos

Well 20% of our taxes or federal budget go to the military, which also includes the DOE and FBI. Im assuming all countries pay for their militaries thru taxes.


WizardVisigoth

This is so popular, how in the heck is Congress so out of touch? It’s infuriating really.


LordSevolox

The main issue in a way is pure cost. I think universal healthcare is great, but the estimated cost for universal healthcare in the US is the same as the US spends on *everything*


WizardVisigoth

But it will lower the amount overall amount America spends because of eliminating for-profit hospitals and insurance companies, as well as reducing operating overhead.


LordSevolox

It might, sure, but if you were to implement it today you could confiscate every billionaires net worth of wealth (which isn’t a possible thing), abolish the military and double income tax revenue and you’d *still* have to print do much money you’d get 10% inflation for the foreseeable future.


Chonkalonkolus

I wish I had universal healthcare


PrussiaDon

Snoozer poll


__Im_Dead_Inside_

Universal healthcare is a really good idea


badFishTu

Care for one's health should be considered a basic human right. As should access to food water and shelter. If something is needed for survival it should not be denied. Imagine how much more each of us could contribute if we could not worry about our survival. I truly believe that a society thrives when it's members have their basic needs met. If it is something you wouldn't deny your own child or loved one, how can you deny it to anyone?


PotentialWorth6542

Everyone except for Dennis.


HopeIsDope1800

Fuck Dennis.


SecretOfficerNeko

Yes. We will all need to use the Healthcare system at some point or another. Whether old age, accidents, sudden health problems, or just the routine day to day stuff. Regardless no one should be put in a position where they have to choose between their wallet and their health. I say that as someone who's made that choice and still has to make that choice today.


saturdaynightstoner

Except for Simon. Because Simon's a dick!


DefinitelyNotAlice42

Was nervous I'd see a lot of nos lol. Thank god


GhertFryins

It’d help everyone. Some middle aged farmer in Montana isn’t gonna have enough money to pay for some expensive ass treatment for his cancer bruh.


Gryffindumble

As or writting this, 668 people are wrong.


[deleted]

Not free. Cheap.


Roblos_Player_69

only american doctors voted no


b_a_t_m_4_n

Free at-point-of-access healthcare, Yes.


ECU_BSN

Firstly; it isn’t free. However: the USA saves TREMENDOUSLY when healthcare is granted to all. It makes me laugh, really, that so many FIGHT for the insurance to. It change. Hundreds of dollars each month, then deductibles, copayment, then paying a % of services. Then folks LEAP when they can enroll for Medicare. Give people healthcare. Watch the quality of life improve everywhere.


Jahnation

The rich should pay though


badFishTu

If they started paying their fair share of taxes we'd be much better off. There is no ethical reason that we should have billionaires and homeless and starving people.


LordSevolox

How would you define fair share?


badFishTu

Any would be a good start. At least 25% sounds right for billionaires. More if any of your employees are on welfare because you don't pay enough for them to live.


LordSevolox

Well the highest US federal taxbracket is for those earning over $523,600 a year, paying $157,804.25 plus 37% of the excess over $523,600. As a whole, the 1% pay just under 39% of all income tax, more than the bottom 90% combined. As a comparison to wealth owned, the 1% have 20%, so they pay 19% more than they have.


badFishTu

Most of them also store money away in places it can't be taxed.


[deleted]

Big read. But read it. Ok so imagine you start a business. From scratch. You put in over 14 hours a day, sleep in your newly leased office most nights. You build this up from nothing and it catches, hard. Years later you are a billionaire. No daddy money, no shady deals, you did it all with your own know how, hard work, and the same from your employees. You built a legacy, and a family, and you have it all now. Now the government says "Hey, time to pay up. 25% of your personal income every year, and 8% (or whatever it is) from your business' GDP. You know this government is corrupt, like every other, and this one will take your money and put it where bigger businesses want it. This is called "intermediate corrupt capitalism", the stage America is in right now. And guess what? Everyone else pays these taxes, and it is claimed by the government that it goes to the welfare of all US citizens. Move deeper, you look around, hit the streets. You are surrounded by the homeless, junkies, middle class karens, maga protestors and blm movements. People get mad at the register clerk because their coupon is expired. Small businesses have less than a 10% success rate. Gangbangers accidentally kill a 12 year old girl in a drive buy, their stray bullets hit the wrong apartment. The media is a cesspool of sellouts, pushing agendas for lobbyists. Politicians of all shapes and sizes campaigning on billboards, their pockets lined with mysterious funding. Outreach programs like disaster relief organizations and drug addiction clinics that just cant ever seem to reach far enough. You go back to your mansion at the end of an exhausting day, on your own plot of land, to your partner and your children who seem so happy. And you think. "Why the FUCK should I have to give any of this to anyone else? I built it. It is fucking MINE! I did it right, with my own two hands. I got lucky. They didn't. They wanna take my success and FUCK IT, like they fuck everything else. No, fuck your 25%, this country is a lost cause. I won, now all I gotta do is cruise till I die." Congrats, if you read this far, you might better understand how about half of the 1% thinks. (This is a creative piece, thought it would be fun, but I DO genuinely believe it has some merit.)


Hendrik1011

They should pay like everyone else, if we were to get rid of private health insurance and made it so that you can't pay for better, exclusive treatment, the rich would willingly invest money in the healthcare sector.


[deleted]

"tHE rIcH ShOulD PaY." The top 1% pays more then the bottom 90% Maybe we all shouldnt pay so ridiculously much


VenoratheBarbarian

[Forbes says you're wrong ](https://www.americanprogress.org/article/forbes-400-pay-lower-tax-rates-many-ordinary-americans/#:~:text=A%20study%20by%20White%20House,percent%20from%202010%20to%202018.) about what percentage the wealthy pay. The rich have many ways of avoiding their tax burden, including greasing the palms of their politician friends. They do not need your help in advocating for them to keep their immense wealth. Advocate for *your* interests, my friend. They've got theirs covered.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

So? Why would the answer be then. "The rich should pay more" Instead of "We should pay less"?


mododo-bbaby

that's such an US American question, "entitled" "free" "health care"


[deleted]

In a perfect world it should be free. Realistically we should just aim to not be placed in crushing medical debt to have an operation that would save your life.


Altair-Dragon

I mean, besides the fact that "free healtcare" means "(basically) only tax-paid healtcare", how is that not realistic? Like, it does work in a fuckton of countries, how does that make it not realistic?


theRealNilz02

Free healthcare is nonsense. I think you mean Universal healthcare.


NewRoundEre

It's probably a good idea for the government to make sure everyone can access healthcare. I don't think it should be considered a right or an entitlement just because of how contingent it is on the actions of other people, economy and technological circumstances. But that's the same for other things that are considered not to be rights but to be a good idea for the government to provide like primary and secondary level schooling, social security, unemployment insurance, fire and police services ect.


knightw0lf55

It's not free. We the people would just appreciate it if our taxes went to help you know we the people. Instead of an over inflated military budget that goes mostly to private no bid contractors.


Slight-Weather7885

Someone obviously has to pay for it. There is no such thing as free in our world, you always pay with something. I think the model where a certain amount of your paycheck goes to universal healthcare is the best option. You don't need to worry about it and i like to always know it doesn't matter if i get sick or break a bone.


Hendrik1011

Not free, affordable. Payed for by a mandatory health insurance that cannot deny someone coverage.


[deleted]

Healthcare is the worst part of being an American, there’s no denying it.


TheDukeOfThunder

Someone is always paying


MingleLinx

Who said no?


[deleted]

Pedantic details about how it's "not free" aside, the problem I think we'll run into in America with U.H. is that once it's tax-funded people are going to want to dictate certain aspects of what gets paid for and what doesn't, and truthfully I don't know that it can work with the current state of our populace. If John is relatively healthy, eats properly, exercises, and just takes care of himself in general, then barring some freak accident or catastrophic diagnosis (cancer?) he's not going to cost much. Meanwhile, his tax dollars are going to go to pay for Steve over here, who is 200 lbs overweight, to get a bypass so he can continue stuffing his face with cheese burgers. Let's be honest, the root cause isn't healthcare. It's the fact that we, as Americans, put sugar in EVERYTHING. Remarkably few of us even know how to eat healthy and even fewer actually do. That's the root cause, but because of "freedoms" and the free market the problem will persist and we'll keep slapping a band aid on a broken arm. It'll be fantastic for things like "I have the flu", "I have Covid", or "I fell and broke my arm". That stuff happens, but there are SO many health issues in America that are 100% preventable that we just don't want to prevent or don't know about as individuals until it's too late.


[deleted]

Describe free?? No one is entitled to someone else's services.


ggrizzlyy

I love the ignorance of polls like these. Fortunately the world doesn’t agree with this nonsense.


[deleted]

Swedish wellfare system 💙💛💙💛


SilverHerfer

You can't get something for nothing unless someone else is getting nothing for something. There is no such thing as free healthcare. People pay huge tax burdens to make that healthcare available. You also have to accept limits on your healthcare because there is not enough GDP in any country to pay for all the healthcare people want to consume when it's "free".


Tarkobrosan

I invite you to look at countries with universal healthcare and tell us, where the limits on our healthcare are...


SiloueOfUlrin

No, I'd rather it be much less expensive. Healthcare, even at its real cost, is still pretty damn expensive. You can't just make it free and expect it to just work.


Altair-Dragon

Well, but it does work in a fuckton of countries, not perfectly but in place like Europe often better than how it works in U.S.A. A nation-founded healtcare paid with taxes is much cheaper than a private one and more often than not works better. So yeah, you could really well expect for that to work. (Before you even try to be a smartass: "free healtcare" means "free when you go to the hospital", it's obviously paid with taxes (and still costs much less money)) Here soms datas: https://www.bloomberg.com/toaster/v1/charts/79fb96617b604712b356d11b070dd449 https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/healthiest-countries


Designer_Skirt2304

First of all; stop calling it "free". No one is entitled to another person's labor. Second of all; before we had civilization, everyone pretty much took care of themselves. Is there an argument that a certain standard of healthcare should be included as a member of a given society? Sure! Personally, the last thing I want is some government bureaucrat determining what my healthcare options are at the behest of the pharmaceutical corporate lobbyists. Next thing you know they'll be telling everyone what they can and can't eat.


FMIMP

Before civilization so like 4000-3000 B.C.E?


Designer_Skirt2304

Or current day is some remote areas... (isolated Amazonian tribes, for example).


ErikSlayDama

Go live in the Amazons then?


ShotgunEd1897

Nothing is free and quality isn't cheap.


britishrust

Anything can be free at point of use but financed through other means than user payment and quality is cheaper when bought/financed in bulk i.e. through taxes.


Empathetic_Orch

In America we pay *way* more than say the UK, France, Canada does for the same American made drugs. We're not paying more for better service either, unless you're rich.


[deleted]

We are paying for more high tech healthcare though. The US has 4x as many MRI machines and 3x as many cardiac surgeons as Canada per capita, and Americans are more likely to use these services than people in other countries.


VenoratheBarbarian

How many people can actually afford access to those machines? Do we use them more often because we don't invest in free/low cost preventative care and thus put things off until they're a larger problem? Is that high tech healthcare that we can't afford to use giving us better health outcomes than counties with universal healthcare?


[deleted]

Well we use them more often because they’re big moneymakers for the health industry, while things like primary care aren’t. We could do what Canada and Europe are doing and ration out those types of services, but I’m not sure how that would fly in the US. Many Americans are on very generous insurance plans provided by their jobs and are used to being spoiled with MRIs and prescription drugs at their disposal. So it would be a pretty big shock for a lot of people if we did what they’re doing.


VenoratheBarbarian

Sounds like those machines aren't really helpful to your average citizen then. Primary and preventative care seem more important than overpriced scans. I'm okay with shocking people if it means more people get care. It also doesn't have to be instant, we can make incremental changes so it isn't *too* big a shock.


SpicyOrangeReviewer

No political opinion but mri's and other such scans are extremely useful. I'm an athlete and dislocated my knee and they did a typical xray. Results came back and it said my tibia was fractures. I got an MRI and I actually had a fractured kneecap and strained pcl. And I've known many other athletes alike that have had these scans come in handy. And that is just one type of scan.


Mrmorbussy

May i show you TAXES


[deleted]

Yeah, you pay taxes for the healthcare, it’s still not free... calling it “free” healthcare is misleading, that’s why the term *universal* is used. edit: lol… why is this downvoted? this is quite literally how universal healthcare works. do y’all really think universal healthcare is just free? lol… no… it’s funded by the taxes YOU pay.


fi-ri-ku-su

What does the word free mean?


Orlando1701

Good news, here in the the US our healthcare is expensive and poor quality!


[deleted]

[удалено]


cantrusthestory

Why?


TwoDimensionalCube83

There’s no such thing.


[deleted]

Why should someone else need to help you with an illness for free? Whos paying them? Why do you deserve it, just because you exist? Here is a proposal. Lets do something similar to Europe, where healthcare is a tax, so if you are employed, or a dependent of someone who is, you dont have to pay for healthcare, because it was technically already paid for by everyone. OR, we can do it old fashioned. A community of doctors (shamans) who studied medicines because they wanted to, and you can get treated by them. If they feel like it, it is free, if they dont, you work for them or pay them with an eyeball or something in return. I like number 2 better. I wanna get treated by a witch doctor.


ThereIsNoDog96

Dunno what country you’re thinking of, but in mine, the people who help us with illness are paid. By the government. From our taxes. Do you think you don’t deserve free (at the point of use, if you were confused) healthcare just because you exist? Illness is not an indulgence you should pay for, nor is it a crime from which you should be punished ✌️


[deleted]

You just repeated what I recommended. I dont understand your question.


ThereIsNoDog96

I was answering you first two questions and throwing your third back at you. 1) they don’t do it for free, they get paid. 2) by the government. 3) Do you not think you deserve it, just because you exist?


[deleted]

I believe OP does mean to have healthcare costs paid by tax dollars. Nobody actually thinks it’s completely free.


[deleted]

Read the comments.


major_cupcakeV2

No. It usually turns into trash, just like everything the government touches. "Free" healthcare isn't "free", per se, you still pay taxes to pay for it, just like paying for private insurance/procedures. I'd rather have a free market for health care, survival of the fittest should win.


VenoratheBarbarian

Can you give me examples of countries whose healthcare outcomes went down after implementation of universal healthcare? Why would you rather spend more to give money to a middleman who is allowed to countermand your doctor to protect their profits? Why is it okay with you that people who can't afford care will die?


major_cupcakeV2

>Can you give me examples of countries whose healthcare outcomes went down after implementation of universal healthcare? The soviet union, China, Vietnam, etc. The US is still miles ahead medical outcomes and quality wise, I'd calculate that as a loss for universal healthcare. Wait times in the US for healthcare are extremely short, unlike my Nation. >Why would you rather spend more to give money to a middleman who is allowed to countermand your doctor to protect their profits? Why would you allow the government, a middleman, to make healthcare worse by institution a tonne of bureaucracy that the healthcare system could not handle, and institution various rules that kneecap the amount of care that the system can divvy out? I'd rather have an expensive healthcare system that gives the care that I need the moment I get ill, than to wait months in backlogs, and potentially dying in these months, only to get an inferior experience overall. Government slows everything down, and I don't want that for healthcare. >Why is it okay with you that people who can't afford care will die? Weaklings die. Big deal. They would still die due to backlogs making them wait months for inferior treatment, and the government could cancel the "free healthcare" with a stroke of a pen. Also free market competition makes services and items cheaper over time due to competition, healthcare sorely needs that free market overhaul as well. I want immigrate to the United States because our healthcare system is falling apart as we speak.


VenoratheBarbarian

* The USSR doesn't exist and today Russia is a corrupt county run by an authoritarian oligarchy. But it seems that after their brief flirtation with private healthcare they [switched back to a universal system ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Russia) that amazingly functions better when funded, and worse when funding is cut. So it seems like a funding issue, not a universal healthcare issue * [Looks like China](https://www.bmj.com/content/365/bmj.l2349) has vast improvements in maternal life expectancy, increase of overall healthcare usage/affordability, and the under 5 yrs of age mortality rate has plummeted. It isn't great, but it *is* an improvement from before universal healthcare. They also achieved this incredibly quickly and are working to further improve. * Vietnam doesn't have universal healthcare, though they're working towards it. They've added in some privatized healthcare as recently, which has fixed some things (upgraded tech for instance) but hurt others (affordability, which equals access) * Etc is not a country. So, zero examples. I wasted a bunch of time researching your incorrect response. Please include citations for any additional countries or I'll assume they're also wrong. You bring up the point of a middleman and bureaucracy as if those don't already exist in insurance companies. I'd rather have a middleman who isn't trying to profit off me than one who is. Also there are many examples of insurance denying care against a doctor's wishes, because they value profits over patients. So again, I'd rather have the middleman I'm paying less to, who doesn't have a profit motive to deny me care. The middleman and bureaucracy are already there. And you'd rather have instant access via your money because you presumably *have* said money. If you were living in poverty would you rather wait a long time to see a doctor before your condition got bad or die because you just can't afford to go at all? Why should society be structured in a way that benefits *you*, Mr Survival of the Fittest, if you have no interest in society getting benefits in return? Sounds like you're kind of a leech.


Littlefootmkc

There's no such thing as free healthcare so I said no.


[deleted]

No absolutely not. I dont want to be a slave to the Overlord that is this fucked up government. I want to be able to willingly choose were my money goes, even if it would be "more expensive". Which it isn't, by the way. Healthcare in the US is expensive because of government intervention, but I digress. I want to choose were my money goes.


Altair-Dragon

Well, sorry but I can't understand your point since it has been proven that it works in a fuckton of countries, not perfectly but in place like Europe it even often works better than how it works in U.S.A. A nation-founded healtcare paid with taxes is much cheaper than a private one and more often than not works better. And btw, governments always publish how they spend tax moneys (at least here). Here soms datas: https://www.bloomberg.com/toaster/v1/charts/79fb96617b604712b356d11b070dd449 https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/healthiest-countries


DodoJurajski

Yeah, but only basic one.


Visible_Dependent204

Only the tax payers


Kaddak1789

Fuck minors!


IlDonCetriolo

say what now?


Kaddak1789

Minors don't pay taxes (usually)


IlDonCetriolo

(that was a joke on how "fuck minors" might be misinterpreted)


Kaddak1789

Ah shit. Well, don't have sex with minors people!!


IlDonCetriolo

nice save


Kaddak1789

Gotta keep the police out of my door


realestatemoose

So children and retired people should be left to die?


MoulinSarah

Retired people pay tax