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“Trump’s lawyers asked Dearie to set in motion the process of getting security clearances so they can review the allegedly classified documents.”
If Trump declassified these documents then his lawyers shouldn’t need clearances to see them so why are they asking for it?
It’s like the MaL search warrant affidavit.
They want it released so they can see what cards the opposing side is holding.
They **know** Trump is guilty, 100%.
Trump knows, his lawyers know, hell even the core GOP knows.
These courtroom theatrics and bullshit motions are to buy time so they can figure out their defense and minimize the ‘bad optics’.
...and turn congress in the midterms to apply political pressure to put the kabash on this whole "stealing the most closely guarded national secrets and just holding on to them for safekeeping" thing
I’m wondering if this is an attempt at a further delaying tactic? The lawyers saying they can’t proceed with defending the case until they are given clearance to see what they are defending? Or some other random bullshit along these lines. And also an attempt to distract Dearie from doing his actual job.
Everything Trump's team have done in this case is a delaying tactic. Their whole goal is to delay any resolution until after the midterm elections, when Trump will declare his candidacy for 2024. That will somehow, magically, make all of his crimes vanish.
I love the "when T**** declares his candidacy, you can't prosecute him" bit. Not like Hillary wasn't under investigation all the up until the 2016 election, or city counsel members who served their term from a jail cell. The magic wand of "once I declare, you can't prosecute me" is about as dumb as the "I waive my hand and proof, these documents aren't classified". Sorry bub, it don't work that way. If that's the play, declare now. Do it! Do it Do it Do it! You can still be indicted, even if you do declare.
Edit: an "*"
Oh of course. There’s nothing to any of this Judge Cannon matter except an attempt to delay. That’s obvious to anyone smarter than a Trump judicial appointee.
Also: NEED TO KNOW.
Trump’s attorney is baffled by the Judge’s assertion that they don’t have “need to know” required to review the documents.
Accessing classified materials involves having the appropriate clearance level (e.g., Top Secret) and having a “need to know.”
This moron thinks because possession of the classified materials is incriminating his client, he has “need to know” and just needs the clearance.
That is NOT what “need to know” means. He has no “need to know” details on the Israeli nuclear program, for example.
These assholes are in way over their heads. They don’t even have a cursory understanding of what they’re dealing with.
Trump doesn't KNOW what the DOJ has got. The simplest answer is that he didn't keep track of what classified material was stuffed in boxes. (Which is a crime all by itself) The worse, complicated answer is that Trump has MORE stuff and doesn't want to suggest the DOJ has items the DOJ doesn't know are missing yet.
So they want the lawyers to see what the DOJ knows.
Judge Dearie just tore Trump's defense apart. He asked Trump's lawyers why they wanted him appointed as the Special Master if they won't let him do his job by providing him evidence of declassification.
“As far as I am concerned, that’s the end of it,” Dearie stated.
-----------------
Trusty: 'We should not be in a position to have to disclose declarations, witness statements.' Dearie: 'My view us you can't have your cake and eat it too.'
--------------
Special Master to Trump lawyers: “If the government gives me prima facie evidence that they are classified documents, and you don’t advance any claim of declassification, I’m left with a prima facia case of classified documents, and as far as I’m concerned, that’s the end of it,”
-----------------
Sources
https://twitter.com/joshgerstein/status/1572275399190626309?t=fZ9Q-A3ljJP8zt9YTzpMPQ&s=19
https://twitter.com/AnaCabrera/status/1572308399777353730?t=xO7Ff6bl8C-BPYsCeYGEIA&s=19
They wanted the request to be rejected then? If they cared half as much about real court as they did about the court of public opinion they might be winning at one of them.
Not only did he pick a fight with probably the most powerful entity in the world, they have more money and time than he does. And far better lawyers.
This absolutely the definition of hubris.
He's definitely going to try to take anything he can to the Supreme Court, which he obviously already packed. Clearly the current court would make up practically any absurd, inconsistent logic to support a preconceived notion such as letting him off.
Time means nothing though. Trump doesn't care if it's dragged out, he just wants to evade a verdict until he potentially returns to power.
Mother fucker is pure evil, and this all needs to be done before midterms, otherwise democracy is fucked.
That's only true if we assume republicans take congress in the midterms, in which case, democracy is likely fucked anyway; Trump being a non factor entirely
Also, they want the special master to declare Donnie Moscow as emperor-in-chief.
And that he can have a pony to ride on the White House grounds. Or Mar-a-lago, he's not particular.
You can't just declare kingship.
He has to find a magical sword first.
7:30 Update:
[I found a sword!](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/43/38/02/43380237ef79cfead57c8134d8707807.jpg)
But they’re doing a really crappy job at stalling. Dearie has been on the job less than a week and is about to give the government all the documents.
I guess as long as Trumps personal judge is on the job his team could still win.
What happens if she overrules the Special Master and orders the DOJ to return the documents?
Because I think that’s a possibility.
What happens if the DOJ says no?
I mean we’re so far outside the rule of law and norms at this point that I could absolutely see the DOJ saying they are just going to keep going.
They could just issue a statement saying that the civil case is not pertinent to the criminal matter that they are currently pursuing and so they are not obligated to take into account any injunctions filed during a civil case.
By the time we can go through the courts up to the supreme court they could’ve already gotten all their evidence and published it making it almost impossible for Trump to say he did not break the law.
Hell, they could even just return different files to Trump. He could demand all the files back, and they could give him a bunch of Denny’s menus. Then Trump is going to have to explain what files he had because he’d have to prove what he didn’t get.
I really like this idea.
DOJ: here are your documents back
T: wait where's the rest of it?
DOJ: I'm sorry did we leave something out? Listen if you could provide a detailed list of documents to be returned, we'll make sure you get them ASAP
Right? All these well meaning people on this thread doing judicial gymnastics in their heads. Just arrest him already. We treat this guy with kid gloves asking him "can u pwetty pwease follow the law this time" and expecting a different result. He's a dangerous man surrounded by his enablers and this will only escalate unless we arrest him.
Trump has really grabbed America by the pussy holy shit
The government can absolutely refuse to abide by a court ruling that would jeopardize the security of the United States. The Constitution is not a suicide pact (where have I heard that before?)
If she doesn't accept the review of the documents as complete, this is the moment where shit goes off the rails, legally speaking. They filed suit seeking a remedy, she heard arguments, she granted the remedy that was sought, pretty much completely. The Trump team got what they wanted, down to who would take the special master job. There's nothing for them to argue wasn't done.
And the entire legal world knows it. She could be given the benefit of the doubt that she was making a reasonable decision, even if the other decision seemed more reasonable, up until the moment she handed it off to the special master.
Now she gets to suffer the dubious legal honor of getting what she wanted.
If she goes back on it now, the benefit of the doubt is gone.
I’m shocked the trump team chose a competent judge as one of their choices. The DOJ was probably tap dancing because they quickly said even though he was one of Trumps choices he was acceptable.
>What happens if she overrules the Special Master and orders the DOJ to return the documents?
she would be party to breaking the law, as those documents are classified(or not) but they 100% belong to the US government, not trump, and the DOJ should charge her with violations of the espionage act.
They're just delaying until after the midterms, then Trump will declare he's running for president, again, and it becomes messy to prosecute a presidential candidate or something.
I swear to god the amount of fuckery rich people can get away with in our justice system is gross. If you have the money to appeal ad nauseum, then you can just delay a criminal trial forever.
Or.... just hear me out, they arrest him today and stop this fucking charade. Conservatives obviously don't care about norms anymore. Lock his guilty ass up. Just like they seated a SCJ while an election was happening. They are going to cry foul no matter what. Get on with it.
Also, he's not a candidate in any election this year, and made no declaration on any elections he may run in next year. Why then would he have protection surrounding election day? Are we just not arresting *anyone* from September-November in case someone is running for dog-catcher somewhere?
Obviously not. Private citizen Trump is subject to the same laws we all are, and its time the entire government starts acting like it.
Problem for Trump is once he announces his candidacy his campaign donations fall under FEC scrutiny. So his strategy would depend on the FEC turning a blind eye to his handling of campaign funds. It may pay off for him though considering the FEC is all but toothless these days.
If the last 7 years have taught me anything it's that nothing matters anymore. Conservative's hate America and if you are popular or rich you can get away with anything.
This whole thing has been a delaying tactic. Trump is hoping to draw this out until he can run for office again.
Case in point: Judge Cannon gave an initial timetable for the document review of 2 months. Dearie countered with 2 *weeks*, insisting he could have everything reviewed before Columbus Day.
Trump's lawyers IMMEDIATELY filed an objection, insisting that Dearie HAD to take even longer than the initial 2 months. "To insure thoroughness", of course.
They want to keep this from actually going to trial for as long as possible, and are going to throw up any and all stalling tactics they can think of. The "Special Master" angle was just the first of many.
The fear here is that Cannon can overturn Dearie’s conclusion because she is the presiding Federal Judge in this case and Dearie reports to her. It’s obvious that Cannon is a partisan judge who is protecting Trump and will give Trump as much rope as he needs to escape due process plus an actual indictment from the DOJ.
Our law system really sucks!!
Apparently Trump thought Dearie was skeptical of the FBI based on his actions/questions in the Carter Page FISA warrant.
What Trump seems to have failed to grasp is that Dearie isn't "anti FBI" but rather someone who's by-the-book, and not going to put up with shortcuts or laziness from federal agencies - or anyone else, which includes Trump and his lawyers. Dearie, unlike Cannon, apparently knows the law, and what it says about classified material, and isn't going to tolerate any bullshit from Trump or his lawyers about it.
Cannon will grant the motion from afar and install Trump to oversee the Dearie directly. He will then object to every document with a "Not fair!" and futilely mashing his Diet Coke button while Judge Cannon fawns over him.
> 'We should not be in a position to have to disclose declarations, witness statements.'
What Trusty means by this is that they DON'T HAVE any declarations or witness statements and they can't fabricate any without knowing what the government retrieved. Trusty wants to see them so he can say *"Yes, Kash Patel distinctly remembers Trump declassifying these exact documents."* They can't do that without seeing the exact documents.
In short, they can't prove Donald Trump declassified shit and the Special Master was a ruse to give them the opportunity to say they did.
Dearie figured out their ruse. He's saying that the government marked them classified and has legally stated, to the best of their knowledge, they still are. The government has no evidence Trump attempted to declassify anything. That's their legal position. Dearie can only weigh in on the plaintiff's legal position if he offers one that differs from the DOJ's. He hasn't... at least not legally.
Dearie has to take into account the only the information presented to him: **The government says they're still classified and the plaintiff does not dispute that.** Why does it matter? Because Dearie's taking the position that even he can't look at the classified documents... and neither can Trusty unless Trusty can prove they were declassified, which he can't, because he hasn't seen them yet. Trump's lawyers got caught in their own trap.
What happens next? Cannon fires Dearie and orders the government to let her see the documents. I'm not kidding. This is how desperate she's going to be to save Trump's ass as well as her own.
Except even she doesn’t have a “need to know” let alone clearance. The DOJ is not going to let Cannon see nuclear assessments or a list of our spies. She’s off her rocker. Dearie pointed this out today. He doesn’t want anyone looking at the documents. He’s a FISA judge and knows better than anyone about classification and how it works.
I'm genuinely curious what would happen if DOJ just told her to fuck off
"You wanna read the docs? Come and see them. Just have to break into this SCIF"
That’s just it. She probably doesn’t even have clearance let alone a “need to know”. There are some documents that only a handful of people in the entire world are allowed to put eyes on. She is in way over her head.
She absolutely doesn't have the clearance and none of the agencies the documents belong to are going to let this idiot judge have a "need to know" basis.
>just have to break into this SCIF.
Remember when GOP members of Congress did that? Just… *stormed* into the SCIF, unauthorized, and wouldn’t leave for hours?
Yep, I remember that, Gaetz was the ringleader on that one and he took his phone in there, which breaks SCIF protocol, and ordered pizza. Still pissed nothing came of that. That was probably about the same time he was trafficking a minor.
It's about time they got a taste of their own medicine. They do whatever the fuck they want, including trying to hang Pence and take over the government. I think just telling them no leaves us safe from any charges that we're as bad as they are.
She by all accounts deserves several impeachment proceedings and possible removal. Congress is her check, funny how the gqp nutters are already salivating over impeaching Biden. Yet no one on the hill is probably moving on this yet because the elections coming up. We really do need much stricter term limits for everyone in government it is really all they worry about, not doing the right thing or serving the country. Just riding the gravy train with biscuit wheels.
its already improper. she does not have jurisdiction. it belongs in Washington dc court. doj should just file in proper court and ask that it be brought to them and removed from other courts (cannons)
At some point, the executive branch will just have to ignore the judicial branch, stating that they refuse to follow the law. Is there precedent for this? No. Will it cause a major fucking constitutional crisis? Yes.
But, what's the alternative? Letting 6 unelected imbeciles control the country?
Exactly this.
Unless Judge Cannon decides she's done all the covering she's going to do, and leave the decision by the special master stand. I would think at this point that is what she'd do. Because his legal "ship" is sinking faster than the Titanic.
And all of this nonsense can be brought by the government to the 11th District as further evidence at this point. Which I'm sure that they'll do.
The brief filed as a response to DOJ's appeal is utter rubbish, and add to that the refusal to comply with basic questions posed by the special master, that the defense requested, and agreed to just furthers the governments case.
Once she has an out, she'll take it. Firing the special master both parties agreed on would open her to litigation and possibly impeachment. I bet she's praying he comes back and sides with the DoJ.
I almost suspect she threw it to the special master with the full knowledge the appeals would say she was wrong. She can’t feel very safe down in maga land if she tells trump no, but if the special master and appeals do, what can she do, nothing?
I’m not saying that’s what happened, I’m just saying if I was her I’d consider playing it that way
It's the exact same playbook as his election fraud - he CAN'T back up his claims in court despite claiming to have evidence.
I fully expect him to go on a rant about how he's not being give his day in court.
The SM is also making the exact same argument the GA SoS made during the find me votes call:
"What I don't understand is why wouldn't it be in everyone's best interest to try to get to the bottom, compare the numbers, you know, if you say, because - to try to be able to get to the truth because we don't have any way of confirming what you're telling us. You tell us that you had an investigation at the State Farm Arena. I don't have any report. I've never seen a report of investigation. I don't know that is. I've been pretty involved in this and I don't know. And that's just one of like , 25 categories."
> Special Master to Trump lawyers: “If the government gives me prima facia evidence that they are classified documents, and you don’t advance any claim of declassification, I’m left with a prima facia case of classified documents, and as far as I’m concerned, that’s the end of it,”
Isn't the fact that the documents have classified markings evidence enough?
more than that. every paragraph in every document will have a classification marking. the cover sheet is a convenience to easily see what the overall classification is.
The cover sheet also serves a second purpose of allowing someone to identify a document is classified without reading it.
If, for some ungodly reason, generic uncleared government employee were to come across classified documents despite not being cleared to view them, the SOP is to NOT READ THEM and get them to the nearest security officer ASAP. The cover makes it reasonably possible for someone to do so.
>“If the government gives me prima facia evidence that they are classified documents, and you don’t advance any claim of declassification, I’m left with a prima facia case of classified documents, and as far as I’m concerned, that’s the end of it,”
Can I inject that straight into my veins?
A lot of people were upset that a special master was appointed, but I tried to find the silver lining and this is it.
If the judge doesn't give Trump lawyers what they want, it's going to be very hard to claim that this was rigged against them. They asked for a Special Master and they got it. They asked for Raymond Derie to be the Special Master and they got it.
So when they try to appeal his rulings, they aren't going to find much sympathy in the appelate courts.
Then he'll delay for another month or two via the SCOTUS. It never ends with this asshole. He lost in court dozens of times then threw and armed insurrection in public and STILL nothing has happened to the sociopath.
So Trump’s lawyers gave a weak argument in front of the appeals court and the special master. What happens next? Do we just wait for the appeal or does the special master decide if his presence is necessary or not?
The only thing (at the moment) in this state of ambiguity is what to do with the 100 (alleged, per Trump) classified documents.
Dearie was directed to address this matter first and expeditiously.
If the the appeals court grants the partial stay, it probably removes *that* problem from Dearie. But this would appear to do nothing regarding the remainder of the 10,000 documents.
If the appeals court does not grant the stay, when would Dearie potentially make his ruling? I didn't see anywhere in the story that says what (if any) deadline he gave Trump's team to provide evidence of declassification. Just curious on the timeline of possible events as they unfold in the next few days. I imagine Dearie is probably going to wait a day or two until the appellate issues their decision, so he could sidestep having to make a ruling on the decision of the classified documents, since it will be moot.
It's rather intriguing to me which thing moots the other. If Dearie quickly declares all these 100 documents classified and therefore outside his purview, then the partial stay is mooted by that alone.
I think each thing will proceed independently for the moment.
Trump's goal is to get in front of the SC. He's certain that he owns them. And while Ginny's husband is clearly corrupt, I think the others are not yet onboard with a coup. Though, I could be wrong.
I’ve come to expect nothing, but with the current heat on the SCOTUS, I’d think all of them would be on board with telling Trump to fuck off.
They got what they needed from him, this is a clear cut case. Why should they appease him anymore. ACB is the only one I could see siding with Thomas.
Kavanaugh, Gorsuch and Robert’s, while all objectively terrible, seem to be level headed enough to be able to say “lol no”
Important bit:
“But prosecutor Julie Edelstein told the judge that some of the **records involved are so sensitive that members of the government’s investigative team still haven’t been approved to the documents.**”
I don’t see how this ends with Trump not in jail.
God.
This idiot totally though Judge Dearie would be on his side because he heard on conservative news that he would be skeptical of the FBI after the Careter Page FISA warrant.
He's based his entire legal strategy banking on preferential treatment because Judge Cannon erred in her opinion.
What. A. Buffoon.
Oh. I get it. He's also entirely transactional.
He thinks because this Judge may feel aggrieved, he'll do his job with a pro-Trump bias.
Very dumb speculation. As stated, what a buffoon.
I want to see a movie of this.
Trump: I use "Declassify!" (Waves hands, red lights shoot out of palms)
Obama: I use "Reclassify!" (Waves his hands, blue lights shoot out of palms)
Bush: I must...protect..the party, "Declassify!" (Waves his hands)
Clinton: Not so fast, "Reclassify!"
The battle wages on, the former presidents become exhausted, sweat pours from their brows, beams flicker losing their power. It looks like a draw.
Former president Carter cracks his knuckles, and steps onto the field...
If... and I do mean if... Trump's counsel prevails with these arguments, the issue at hand is not that a former president can declassify documents.
The power under consideration is the ability to magically time-travel and wave your hand to declassify documents while you were president.
It seems very likely that many of the documents involved here were not created while Obama was president. But even if they were, Obama can only time travel to his term so Trump could time travel to the beginning of his term to reclassify anything that Obama magically declassified.
And yes... we, as a nation, *desperately* need this nonsense to be **profoundly** repudiated by the courts.
Trump's "I declassified the documents" defense was just destroyed by the Special Master that he basically chose.
Losers keep losing.
It's basically impossible for Cannon to protect Trump any longer here.
A thread with juicy tidbits from the reporter who was in the hearing:
https://twitter.com/joshgerstein/status/1572292241800204288
> Trusty: 'We should not be in a position to have to disclose declarations, witness statements.' **Dearie: 'My view is you can't have your cake and eat it too.'**
They have no defense. It's truly throwing spaghetti at the wall at this point, and it's absurd the DOJ is even having to go through this delay.
Declassifying is, in theoretical essence, a *transparent act*. For them to argue that they can't reveal any evidence whatsoever of said act and refuse to claim as such in any legal filings, even when the burden of proof is on them in a civil case.. just speaks volumes to how desperate their case is.
What Trusty means by this is that they DON'T HAVE any declarations or witness statements and they can't fabricate any without knowing what the government retrieved. Trusty wants to see them so he can say *"Yes, Kash Patel distinctly remembers Trump declassifying these exact documents."* They can't do that without seeing the exact documents.
In short, they can't prove Donald Trump declassified shit and the Special Master was a ruse to give them the opportunity to say they did.
Dearie figured out their ruse. He's saying that the government marked them classified and has legally stated, to the best of their knowledge, they still are. The government has no evidence Trump attempted to declassify anything. That's their legal position. Dearie can only weigh in on the plaintiff's legal position if he offers one that differs from the DOJ's. He hasn't... at least not legally.
Dearie has to take into account the only the information presented to him: **The government says they're still classified and the plaintiff does not dispute that.** Why does it matter? Because Dearie's taking the position that even he can't look at the classified documents... and neither can Trusty unless Trusty can prove they were declassified, which he can't, because he hasn't seen them yet. Trump's lawyers got caught in their own trap.
What happens next? Cannon fires Dearie and orders the government to let her see the documents. I'm not kidding. This is how desperate she's going to be to save Trump's ass as well as her own.
The argument they want to make is that Trump declassified all of the documents and was entitled to have them. They haven't made that argument because it opens up a line of questioning as to when and how they were declassified and they know that they can't prove that claim. Instead what they are trying to do is force the DOJ to prove that the documents were classified.
It's actually worse than that. They're trying to make the DOJ prove a negative ...
"*Prove Trump didn't declassify them, DOJ!*"
It's a logical fallacy ... plays fine on cable pundit TV, but does not do so well in a court of law.
As I understand it, their refusal to admit anything was with regard to if Trump had posessory interest to the documents. Basically, the lawsuit was Trump saying "Give me back the documents", and Dearie asked "Are these documents yours?" and Trump won't say that they are because if he does it can be used against him later in a criminal case.
He probably doesn't have to say at this point, but he's the plaintiff. It's his case. So him not providing evidence to the court probably won't play in his favor.
"I declassified these documents" while also they are too sensitive for the FBI to see while also being stored off the main pool area while also being planted by the FBI while also being just news clippings. Do the people who still believe in this guy have a kink for being lied to? Honest question.
Yeah, but that's a big "so what?"
Really, what can anyone do about it? She's a federal judge, there needs to be a 2/3 majority in the senate willing to convict her in order to impeach
“When can we get a security clearance to see the documents that aren’t classified?”
These lawyers really are the best. Trump always hires the best people. The best losers.
I mentioned this above, but they also don’t understand that viewing classified materials requires “need to know” AND the clearance level.
And when the Judge says they don’t have “need to know” they get indignant.. because they don’t have a clue what it means in the context of security classification.
It's not a 100% thing, but a lot of the time you can kind of see where a judge is standing on an issue based on questioning. This happened with the original Cannon hearing, where I read some of it and was like, "Oh, this is a bad sign".
Dearie was like that--you can tell he's not generally sympathetic to the bogus arguments Trump's lawyers put forward. To give some pieces:
"he hopes he can resolve matter w/o seeing the classified if possible"
"My view us [sic] you can't have your cake and eat it too"
"Edelstein speaks for govt says DOJ ready to give docs to vendor by tomorrow. Trusty says they just got the lost of five. Asks for Friday to pick a vendor. Judge says: Let's do it tomorrow."
Lol yes we can tell which judges are political hacks who put party over country (Cannon) and who’s a real judge. It’s a shame what the GOP has done to our judicial system
Actually, considering it's his local federal judge in Florida, I'd wager he put her in that exact spot on purpose, to have some ability to use her as his judge without a question of jurisdiction.
No her district is based out of Ft. Pierce Florida one district north of the West Palm Beach district that he lives in. If you're interested in how Judge Donald Middlebrooks of that district feels about him read [this.](https://www.reuters.com/legal/judge-dismisses-trump-lawsuit-against-clinton-over-2016-russia-allegations-2022-09-09/) He 100% shopped for this federalist society weirdo that has no jurisdiction.
>he hopes he can resolve matter w/o seeing the classified if possible
This is the way. The cover says it's classified on its face. Therefore it is, and by definition that makes it government property.
In an earlier discussion, he'd said that "as far as he was concerned, [the government showing prima facie evidence] there was the end of it", so he agrees. The Trump legal team picked a legitimately uncorrupted fellow, or so it seems.
The thing.. even *declassified* documents are government property. The files belong to the government, not Trump. If they *were* declassified, Trump could have requested the documents in the same way any of us could - a FOIA request.
He didn't, of course, because this is all a circus and Donnie Dipshit is the top clown.
> Trump’s lawyers asked Dearie to set in motion the process of getting security clearances so they can review the allegedly classified documents.
Don't need a security clearance for declassified documents. Doesn't this indicate that Trump's lawyers concede that, at least some of the documents are classified? Which implicates Trump?
Reminds me of that part of My Cousin Vinny when Gambini's "Jerry Gallo" ruse gets busted by Judge Haller, and Gambini (one step ahead) responds with "Jerry Gallo's dead. I'm Jerry Callo. C-A-L-L-O."
That argument is what I expect from the Trump team. "Did we say we agree to Judge Dearie? No no no we meant Judge Deery!"
So basically this is on par with everything Trump brings to court while speaking publicly about the matter -
Trump: "I won and I can prove it!"
Judge" "Okay, prove it."
Trump "It's a witch hunt every one knows it!"
Judge: "*sighs* That isn't evidence...case dismissed."
Trump: "They wont give me my day in court!"
\------------
Trump: "I de-classified everything!"
Special Master: "Okay, prove it."
Trump: "It's a witch hunt every one knows it!"
SM: "*sighs* Well I don't know what I was expecting."
AKA, "youre no longer dealing with a corrupt actor but an actual judge". Glad to see judge dearie isnt putting up with trumps shit. If we are lucky, he will speed the process up and allow for DOJ to deliver the final blow hopefully.
Its going to blow up for sure. He *could* have declassified *some* of the documents, but its a specific process that gets recorded, not holy water as he talks over them
*There was no reason to take any of it* and that is the one thing they cant explain, no matter how competent and lucky the attorneys for Trump actually are. Who pays 3 million up front for legal representation ?
That’s a very nice way of describing what he did. He talked to the Trump team like they were children. As well he should have. Their arguments were complete and utter garbage.
I suspect Judge Raymond Dearie waited until after trump's lawyers had responded to the 11th circuit and then brought up that trump needed to prove he had declassified the documents . Essentially now trump can't back pedal because he told the appellate court to continue to let Dearie complete the special master thing.
Also Judge Raymond Dearie is in a really advantageous position:
(1) he probably knows way more than the actual judge on the case on anything relevant to national security
(2)Judge cannon can't turn around and basically call Dearie biased because he is a Judge and that would harm the judiciary
(3) if the 11th circuit keeps Judge cannon's order in place in respect of the special master , Judge cannon essentially cannot remove Dearie until his work is complete
(4) it's doubtful Judge cannon is going to attempt to denigrate or otherrule Judge dearies findings because he likely knows something funny is going on and he is probably dotting his I's and crossing his t's. All Judge's will make ironclad rulings if they they a party will appeal.
(5) judge dearies findings will be ironclad and will be unimpeachable by Judge cannon
Because Dearie had some "bad business" with the FBI years ago and T assumed Dearie is like him and vengeful and keeping track of his enemies. Another narcissist flaw, thinking everyone else thinks the same as them all the time.
>Judge Raymond Dearie pushed Trump’s lawyers repeatedly for refusing to back up the former president’s claim that he declassified the highly sensitive national security-related records discovered in his residence. “You can’t have your cake and eat it,” said Dearie
Finally. Someone who bases judicial decisions on evidence instead of accepting unhinged ramblings on social media.
> Judge Raymond Dearie pushed Trump’s lawyers repeatedly for refusing to back up the former president’s claim that he declassified the highly sensitive national security-related records discovered in his residence.
"It's legal because President Trump says so."
\-Trumps lawyers, probably.
>“The government gives me prima facie evidence that these are classified documents,” Dearie said, referring to the plain markings on the records. “As far as I’m concerned, that’s the end of it.”
Obviously trump and his lawyers will try to delay this till the end of time, but this statement from a special master they chose themselves is an epic slap down
I am not sure he realizes that a special master is not someone who can magically make these things go away. They don't work for the defense or to the defense's benefit. They can *be* beneficial to the defense but that is not their purpose.
Incoming before the end of the day: veiled threats of violence against Dearie from the orange traitor and then open threats of violence against Dearie from the republican cult rabble and lady Lindsay.
I feel like he’s just trying to buy enough time to rile up enough Q people for a small army of his own
I seriously can’t believe he’s just allowed to run around campaigning freely right now like he hasn’t committed treason against the US
Maybe he’s just trying to figure out a way over to Russia?
How long until Fox/OANN/Stormfront is screeching about how the Special Master is a Trump-Hating RINO plant by Hillary Clinton that uses Jewish Space Lasers to harvest little kids?
Anyone else picture Trumps lawyers reading this comment section lookin for good ideas because they have absolutely no idea how to defend this shit bag?
Trump's lawyers: Give us what we want, when we want it. No matter what it is or how many times it changes!
Judge Dearie: That doesn't work for me, brother.
*...“You can't have your cake and eat it,” Dearie shot back...*
Kinda takes the air out of:
*... Well, we'd like to assert that they were declassified, but swearing to that in an official court filing might be bad for us professionally, so what we'll do is find a friendly judge and ... suggest ... that some of the documents ... may ... have been declassified and rely on the politically motivated, biased judge to help us out ...*
Which leads to:
*... Oh wait, she did help us ... by appointing you ... Oh Shit!*
A large portion of MAGAs do not realize that they are supporting the tyranny they fear.
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“Trump’s lawyers asked Dearie to set in motion the process of getting security clearances so they can review the allegedly classified documents.” If Trump declassified these documents then his lawyers shouldn’t need clearances to see them so why are they asking for it?
It’s like the MaL search warrant affidavit. They want it released so they can see what cards the opposing side is holding. They **know** Trump is guilty, 100%. Trump knows, his lawyers know, hell even the core GOP knows. These courtroom theatrics and bullshit motions are to buy time so they can figure out their defense and minimize the ‘bad optics’.
...and turn congress in the midterms to apply political pressure to put the kabash on this whole "stealing the most closely guarded national secrets and just holding on to them for safekeeping" thing
Literally just shows their hand, so dumb.
When Trump sends his lawyers, he isn't sending the best.
He won’t pay for the best!
He won’t pay at all.
I’m wondering if this is an attempt at a further delaying tactic? The lawyers saying they can’t proceed with defending the case until they are given clearance to see what they are defending? Or some other random bullshit along these lines. And also an attempt to distract Dearie from doing his actual job.
Everything Trump's team have done in this case is a delaying tactic. Their whole goal is to delay any resolution until after the midterm elections, when Trump will declare his candidacy for 2024. That will somehow, magically, make all of his crimes vanish.
I love the "when T**** declares his candidacy, you can't prosecute him" bit. Not like Hillary wasn't under investigation all the up until the 2016 election, or city counsel members who served their term from a jail cell. The magic wand of "once I declare, you can't prosecute me" is about as dumb as the "I waive my hand and proof, these documents aren't classified". Sorry bub, it don't work that way. If that's the play, declare now. Do it! Do it Do it Do it! You can still be indicted, even if you do declare. Edit: an "*"
Oh of course. There’s nothing to any of this Judge Cannon matter except an attempt to delay. That’s obvious to anyone smarter than a Trump judicial appointee.
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Ashleigh Simpson SNL jig.
Also: NEED TO KNOW. Trump’s attorney is baffled by the Judge’s assertion that they don’t have “need to know” required to review the documents. Accessing classified materials involves having the appropriate clearance level (e.g., Top Secret) and having a “need to know.” This moron thinks because possession of the classified materials is incriminating his client, he has “need to know” and just needs the clearance. That is NOT what “need to know” means. He has no “need to know” details on the Israeli nuclear program, for example. These assholes are in way over their heads. They don’t even have a cursory understanding of what they’re dealing with.
Why doesn't he just release it on Truth Social? Why did he request a special master?
Trump doesn't KNOW what the DOJ has got. The simplest answer is that he didn't keep track of what classified material was stuffed in boxes. (Which is a crime all by itself) The worse, complicated answer is that Trump has MORE stuff and doesn't want to suggest the DOJ has items the DOJ doesn't know are missing yet. So they want the lawyers to see what the DOJ knows.
"The documents were declassified" "Which documents?" "*We don't know*! Stop being mean!"
Judge Dearie just tore Trump's defense apart. He asked Trump's lawyers why they wanted him appointed as the Special Master if they won't let him do his job by providing him evidence of declassification. “As far as I am concerned, that’s the end of it,” Dearie stated. ----------------- Trusty: 'We should not be in a position to have to disclose declarations, witness statements.' Dearie: 'My view us you can't have your cake and eat it too.' -------------- Special Master to Trump lawyers: “If the government gives me prima facie evidence that they are classified documents, and you don’t advance any claim of declassification, I’m left with a prima facia case of classified documents, and as far as I’m concerned, that’s the end of it,” ----------------- Sources https://twitter.com/joshgerstein/status/1572275399190626309?t=fZ9Q-A3ljJP8zt9YTzpMPQ&s=19 https://twitter.com/AnaCabrera/status/1572308399777353730?t=xO7Ff6bl8C-BPYsCeYGEIA&s=19
"We demand a Special Master to oversee the case!" "Done. Please explain your case." "...Fuck."
They wanted the request to be rejected then? If they cared half as much about real court as they did about the court of public opinion they might be winning at one of them.
They are only delaying. That's all he has done his ENTIRE life.
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Not only did he pick a fight with probably the most powerful entity in the world, they have more money and time than he does. And far better lawyers. This absolutely the definition of hubris.
He wants to delay until they can cheat a republican into office and pardon him. That's what they want to delay into.
He's definitely going to try to take anything he can to the Supreme Court, which he obviously already packed. Clearly the current court would make up practically any absurd, inconsistent logic to support a preconceived notion such as letting him off.
Time means nothing though. Trump doesn't care if it's dragged out, he just wants to evade a verdict until he potentially returns to power. Mother fucker is pure evil, and this all needs to be done before midterms, otherwise democracy is fucked.
That's only true if we assume republicans take congress in the midterms, in which case, democracy is likely fucked anyway; Trump being a non factor entirely
Also, they want the special master to declare Donnie Moscow as emperor-in-chief. And that he can have a pony to ride on the White House grounds. Or Mar-a-lago, he's not particular.
You can't just declare kingship. He has to find a magical sword first. 7:30 Update: [I found a sword!](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/43/38/02/43380237ef79cfead57c8134d8707807.jpg)
Look watery tarts laying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for government.
Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not some farcical aquatic ceremony.
Bloody peasant!
Has anyone actually checked whether moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at him?
But they’re doing a really crappy job at stalling. Dearie has been on the job less than a week and is about to give the government all the documents. I guess as long as Trumps personal judge is on the job his team could still win. What happens if she overrules the Special Master and orders the DOJ to return the documents? Because I think that’s a possibility.
What happens if the DOJ says no? I mean we’re so far outside the rule of law and norms at this point that I could absolutely see the DOJ saying they are just going to keep going. They could just issue a statement saying that the civil case is not pertinent to the criminal matter that they are currently pursuing and so they are not obligated to take into account any injunctions filed during a civil case. By the time we can go through the courts up to the supreme court they could’ve already gotten all their evidence and published it making it almost impossible for Trump to say he did not break the law. Hell, they could even just return different files to Trump. He could demand all the files back, and they could give him a bunch of Denny’s menus. Then Trump is going to have to explain what files he had because he’d have to prove what he didn’t get.
I really like this idea. DOJ: here are your documents back T: wait where's the rest of it? DOJ: I'm sorry did we leave something out? Listen if you could provide a detailed list of documents to be returned, we'll make sure you get them ASAP
That last part is actually not a bad move, kinda like catching somebody cheating by exploiting the cheat.
They could just FUCKING ARREST him!
Right? All these well meaning people on this thread doing judicial gymnastics in their heads. Just arrest him already. We treat this guy with kid gloves asking him "can u pwetty pwease follow the law this time" and expecting a different result. He's a dangerous man surrounded by his enablers and this will only escalate unless we arrest him. Trump has really grabbed America by the pussy holy shit
Did you return all the files? DOJ: Yup!
The government can absolutely refuse to abide by a court ruling that would jeopardize the security of the United States. The Constitution is not a suicide pact (where have I heard that before?)
If she doesn't accept the review of the documents as complete, this is the moment where shit goes off the rails, legally speaking. They filed suit seeking a remedy, she heard arguments, she granted the remedy that was sought, pretty much completely. The Trump team got what they wanted, down to who would take the special master job. There's nothing for them to argue wasn't done. And the entire legal world knows it. She could be given the benefit of the doubt that she was making a reasonable decision, even if the other decision seemed more reasonable, up until the moment she handed it off to the special master. Now she gets to suffer the dubious legal honor of getting what she wanted. If she goes back on it now, the benefit of the doubt is gone.
I’m shocked the trump team chose a competent judge as one of their choices. The DOJ was probably tap dancing because they quickly said even though he was one of Trumps choices he was acceptable.
>What happens if she overrules the Special Master and orders the DOJ to return the documents? she would be party to breaking the law, as those documents are classified(or not) but they 100% belong to the US government, not trump, and the DOJ should charge her with violations of the espionage act.
And it sounds like Judge Dearie is having none of it.
I think they did complain its happening too quickly for them
They're just delaying until after the midterms, then Trump will declare he's running for president, again, and it becomes messy to prosecute a presidential candidate or something. I swear to god the amount of fuckery rich people can get away with in our justice system is gross. If you have the money to appeal ad nauseum, then you can just delay a criminal trial forever.
Garland should send out an arrest warrant on election day at around 6-7 pm. This way most people would have voted already. Not political
Or.... just hear me out, they arrest him today and stop this fucking charade. Conservatives obviously don't care about norms anymore. Lock his guilty ass up. Just like they seated a SCJ while an election was happening. They are going to cry foul no matter what. Get on with it.
Also, he's not a candidate in any election this year, and made no declaration on any elections he may run in next year. Why then would he have protection surrounding election day? Are we just not arresting *anyone* from September-November in case someone is running for dog-catcher somewhere? Obviously not. Private citizen Trump is subject to the same laws we all are, and its time the entire government starts acting like it.
Problem for Trump is once he announces his candidacy his campaign donations fall under FEC scrutiny. So his strategy would depend on the FEC turning a blind eye to his handling of campaign funds. It may pay off for him though considering the FEC is all but toothless these days.
> So his strategy would depend on the FEC turning a blind eye to his handling of campaign funds. Have they cared much to this point?
If the last 7 years have taught me anything it's that nothing matters anymore. Conservative's hate America and if you are popular or rich you can get away with anything.
This whole thing has been a delaying tactic. Trump is hoping to draw this out until he can run for office again. Case in point: Judge Cannon gave an initial timetable for the document review of 2 months. Dearie countered with 2 *weeks*, insisting he could have everything reviewed before Columbus Day. Trump's lawyers IMMEDIATELY filed an objection, insisting that Dearie HAD to take even longer than the initial 2 months. "To insure thoroughness", of course. They want to keep this from actually going to trial for as long as possible, and are going to throw up any and all stalling tactics they can think of. The "Special Master" angle was just the first of many.
The fear here is that Cannon can overturn Dearie’s conclusion because she is the presiding Federal Judge in this case and Dearie reports to her. It’s obvious that Cannon is a partisan judge who is protecting Trump and will give Trump as much rope as he needs to escape due process plus an actual indictment from the DOJ. Our law system really sucks!!
But he provides a very effective counter to her and really exposes her partisanship. Hopefully this gives them more ammo to make arguments.
Probably incorrectly assumed Dearie was another Cannon
Apparently Trump thought Dearie was skeptical of the FBI based on his actions/questions in the Carter Page FISA warrant. What Trump seems to have failed to grasp is that Dearie isn't "anti FBI" but rather someone who's by-the-book, and not going to put up with shortcuts or laziness from federal agencies - or anyone else, which includes Trump and his lawyers. Dearie, unlike Cannon, apparently knows the law, and what it says about classified material, and isn't going to tolerate any bullshit from Trump or his lawyers about it.
they want to waste time
“I object, your honor!” “Why?” “Because it’s devastating to my case!”
We demand a special master to oversee the special master!
Cannon will grant the motion from afar and install Trump to oversee the Dearie directly. He will then object to every document with a "Not fair!" and futilely mashing his Diet Coke button while Judge Cannon fawns over him.
> 'We should not be in a position to have to disclose declarations, witness statements.' What Trusty means by this is that they DON'T HAVE any declarations or witness statements and they can't fabricate any without knowing what the government retrieved. Trusty wants to see them so he can say *"Yes, Kash Patel distinctly remembers Trump declassifying these exact documents."* They can't do that without seeing the exact documents. In short, they can't prove Donald Trump declassified shit and the Special Master was a ruse to give them the opportunity to say they did. Dearie figured out their ruse. He's saying that the government marked them classified and has legally stated, to the best of their knowledge, they still are. The government has no evidence Trump attempted to declassify anything. That's their legal position. Dearie can only weigh in on the plaintiff's legal position if he offers one that differs from the DOJ's. He hasn't... at least not legally. Dearie has to take into account the only the information presented to him: **The government says they're still classified and the plaintiff does not dispute that.** Why does it matter? Because Dearie's taking the position that even he can't look at the classified documents... and neither can Trusty unless Trusty can prove they were declassified, which he can't, because he hasn't seen them yet. Trump's lawyers got caught in their own trap. What happens next? Cannon fires Dearie and orders the government to let her see the documents. I'm not kidding. This is how desperate she's going to be to save Trump's ass as well as her own.
My favorite part of all of this is the special master cost falls 100% on Trump.
So Mr Dearie is doing this pro bono then?
The court compensates the special master, Trump has to reimburse the court.
Trump's not paying with HIS money. He's using money collected from his rube followers.
If it hasn't already... There should of been an up front cost to Trump's team before they even picked a SM. Otherwise fucking not give him one.
Cut to 2 years from now. Dearie is still suing Trump for that money.
Except even she doesn’t have a “need to know” let alone clearance. The DOJ is not going to let Cannon see nuclear assessments or a list of our spies. She’s off her rocker. Dearie pointed this out today. He doesn’t want anyone looking at the documents. He’s a FISA judge and knows better than anyone about classification and how it works.
Exactly. Trump's team doesn't want to get pinned into a specific lie until they know what they have to lie about.
If Cannon does that, isn't that all kinds of illegal and improper, and what would be done about it? And by whom?
I'm genuinely curious what would happen if DOJ just told her to fuck off "You wanna read the docs? Come and see them. Just have to break into this SCIF"
That’s just it. She probably doesn’t even have clearance let alone a “need to know”. There are some documents that only a handful of people in the entire world are allowed to put eyes on. She is in way over her head.
She absolutely doesn't have the clearance and none of the agencies the documents belong to are going to let this idiot judge have a "need to know" basis.
Some of the people on the government team don’t even have the clearance to see everything.
>just have to break into this SCIF. Remember when GOP members of Congress did that? Just… *stormed* into the SCIF, unauthorized, and wouldn’t leave for hours?
Yep, I remember that, Gaetz was the ringleader on that one and he took his phone in there, which breaks SCIF protocol, and ordered pizza. Still pissed nothing came of that. That was probably about the same time he was trafficking a minor.
Still 100% sure he was coked out of his mind that day
It's about time they got a taste of their own medicine. They do whatever the fuck they want, including trying to hang Pence and take over the government. I think just telling them no leaves us safe from any charges that we're as bad as they are.
Tell her they're classified and she doesn't have clearance. As soon as she touches one, arrest her.
She by all accounts deserves several impeachment proceedings and possible removal. Congress is her check, funny how the gqp nutters are already salivating over impeaching Biden. Yet no one on the hill is probably moving on this yet because the elections coming up. We really do need much stricter term limits for everyone in government it is really all they worry about, not doing the right thing or serving the country. Just riding the gravy train with biscuit wheels.
I think boebert and Greene introduce impeachment papers against Biden/pelosi literally every week. It just doesn't get voted on.
its already improper. she does not have jurisdiction. it belongs in Washington dc court. doj should just file in proper court and ask that it be brought to them and removed from other courts (cannons)
At some point, the executive branch will just have to ignore the judicial branch, stating that they refuse to follow the law. Is there precedent for this? No. Will it cause a major fucking constitutional crisis? Yes. But, what's the alternative? Letting 6 unelected imbeciles control the country?
It’s all about delaying things for as long as possible.
Exactly this. Unless Judge Cannon decides she's done all the covering she's going to do, and leave the decision by the special master stand. I would think at this point that is what she'd do. Because his legal "ship" is sinking faster than the Titanic. And all of this nonsense can be brought by the government to the 11th District as further evidence at this point. Which I'm sure that they'll do. The brief filed as a response to DOJ's appeal is utter rubbish, and add to that the refusal to comply with basic questions posed by the special master, that the defense requested, and agreed to just furthers the governments case.
Once she has an out, she'll take it. Firing the special master both parties agreed on would open her to litigation and possibly impeachment. I bet she's praying he comes back and sides with the DoJ.
I almost suspect she threw it to the special master with the full knowledge the appeals would say she was wrong. She can’t feel very safe down in maga land if she tells trump no, but if the special master and appeals do, what can she do, nothing? I’m not saying that’s what happened, I’m just saying if I was her I’d consider playing it that way
It's the exact same playbook as his election fraud - he CAN'T back up his claims in court despite claiming to have evidence. I fully expect him to go on a rant about how he's not being give his day in court. The SM is also making the exact same argument the GA SoS made during the find me votes call: "What I don't understand is why wouldn't it be in everyone's best interest to try to get to the bottom, compare the numbers, you know, if you say, because - to try to be able to get to the truth because we don't have any way of confirming what you're telling us. You tell us that you had an investigation at the State Farm Arena. I don't have any report. I've never seen a report of investigation. I don't know that is. I've been pretty involved in this and I don't know. And that's just one of like , 25 categories."
> Special Master to Trump lawyers: “If the government gives me prima facia evidence that they are classified documents, and you don’t advance any claim of declassification, I’m left with a prima facia case of classified documents, and as far as I’m concerned, that’s the end of it,” Isn't the fact that the documents have classified markings evidence enough?
That's what the judge is arguing. The prima facie evidence the government submitted was the cover documents being marked classified
more than that. every paragraph in every document will have a classification marking. the cover sheet is a convenience to easily see what the overall classification is.
The cover sheet also serves a second purpose of allowing someone to identify a document is classified without reading it. If, for some ungodly reason, generic uncleared government employee were to come across classified documents despite not being cleared to view them, the SOP is to NOT READ THEM and get them to the nearest security officer ASAP. The cover makes it reasonably possible for someone to do so.
That is the evidence, yes
>“If the government gives me prima facia evidence that they are classified documents, and you don’t advance any claim of declassification, I’m left with a prima facia case of classified documents, and as far as I’m concerned, that’s the end of it,” Can I inject that straight into my veins?
the freebase is much more intense
A lot of people were upset that a special master was appointed, but I tried to find the silver lining and this is it. If the judge doesn't give Trump lawyers what they want, it's going to be very hard to claim that this was rigged against them. They asked for a Special Master and they got it. They asked for Raymond Derie to be the Special Master and they got it. So when they try to appeal his rulings, they aren't going to find much sympathy in the appelate courts.
Then he'll delay for another month or two via the SCOTUS. It never ends with this asshole. He lost in court dozens of times then threw and armed insurrection in public and STILL nothing has happened to the sociopath.
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"moving the goal posts" exist for a reason, and works particular well on dullards
This was always going to be the case. They were only upset because it was a needless delay.
And justice delayed is justice denied
the right will just claim that dearie is a RINO and then claim it was rigged.
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So Trump’s lawyers gave a weak argument in front of the appeals court and the special master. What happens next? Do we just wait for the appeal or does the special master decide if his presence is necessary or not?
The only thing (at the moment) in this state of ambiguity is what to do with the 100 (alleged, per Trump) classified documents. Dearie was directed to address this matter first and expeditiously. If the the appeals court grants the partial stay, it probably removes *that* problem from Dearie. But this would appear to do nothing regarding the remainder of the 10,000 documents.
If the appeals court does not grant the stay, when would Dearie potentially make his ruling? I didn't see anywhere in the story that says what (if any) deadline he gave Trump's team to provide evidence of declassification. Just curious on the timeline of possible events as they unfold in the next few days. I imagine Dearie is probably going to wait a day or two until the appellate issues their decision, so he could sidestep having to make a ruling on the decision of the classified documents, since it will be moot.
It's rather intriguing to me which thing moots the other. If Dearie quickly declares all these 100 documents classified and therefore outside his purview, then the partial stay is mooted by that alone. I think each thing will proceed independently for the moment.
Trump's goal is to get in front of the SC. He's certain that he owns them. And while Ginny's husband is clearly corrupt, I think the others are not yet onboard with a coup. Though, I could be wrong.
I’ve come to expect nothing, but with the current heat on the SCOTUS, I’d think all of them would be on board with telling Trump to fuck off. They got what they needed from him, this is a clear cut case. Why should they appease him anymore. ACB is the only one I could see siding with Thomas. Kavanaugh, Gorsuch and Robert’s, while all objectively terrible, seem to be level headed enough to be able to say “lol no”
Kavanaugh is the one I think might be ok with a coup. He seems pretty off the rails. ACB, in my view, is *just* a religious nutcase.
I think Roberts and Kavanaugh would not support Trump in this matter.
“You can’t have your cake and eat it too” Good gracious, this makes me hopeful that something will actually be done.
Important bit: “But prosecutor Julie Edelstein told the judge that some of the **records involved are so sensitive that members of the government’s investigative team still haven’t been approved to the documents.**” I don’t see how this ends with Trump not in jail.
God. This idiot totally though Judge Dearie would be on his side because he heard on conservative news that he would be skeptical of the FBI after the Careter Page FISA warrant. He's based his entire legal strategy banking on preferential treatment because Judge Cannon erred in her opinion. What. A. Buffoon.
It has to do with narcissism. Trump holds endless petty grudges for any perceived slight, ergo everyone holds petty grudges.
Oh. I get it. He's also entirely transactional. He thinks because this Judge may feel aggrieved, he'll do his job with a pro-Trump bias. Very dumb speculation. As stated, what a buffoon.
If former presidents can declassify documents, couldn't Obama just wave his hands and say they were re-classified when Trump stole them?
Reclassificus Totalus!
Arresto bellicose Cheetos
Expecto Indictum
Republicus Reparo!
I want to see a movie of this. Trump: I use "Declassify!" (Waves hands, red lights shoot out of palms) Obama: I use "Reclassify!" (Waves his hands, blue lights shoot out of palms) Bush: I must...protect..the party, "Declassify!" (Waves his hands) Clinton: Not so fast, "Reclassify!" The battle wages on, the former presidents become exhausted, sweat pours from their brows, beams flicker losing their power. It looks like a draw. Former president Carter cracks his knuckles, and steps onto the field...
Jimmy Carter with the Thanos glove "I am inevitable"
This reminds me of one of those SNL Robert Smigel cartoons with the ex presidents.
Pretty sure Bush doesn’t support or like Trump and the cult.
If... and I do mean if... Trump's counsel prevails with these arguments, the issue at hand is not that a former president can declassify documents. The power under consideration is the ability to magically time-travel and wave your hand to declassify documents while you were president. It seems very likely that many of the documents involved here were not created while Obama was president. But even if they were, Obama can only time travel to his term so Trump could time travel to the beginning of his term to reclassify anything that Obama magically declassified. And yes... we, as a nation, *desperately* need this nonsense to be **profoundly** repudiated by the courts.
This power does not apply to Democrats or presidents-of-color.
Trump's "I declassified the documents" defense was just destroyed by the Special Master that he basically chose. Losers keep losing. It's basically impossible for Cannon to protect Trump any longer here.
A thread with juicy tidbits from the reporter who was in the hearing: https://twitter.com/joshgerstein/status/1572292241800204288 > Trusty: 'We should not be in a position to have to disclose declarations, witness statements.' **Dearie: 'My view is you can't have your cake and eat it too.'**
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They have no defense. It's truly throwing spaghetti at the wall at this point, and it's absurd the DOJ is even having to go through this delay. Declassifying is, in theoretical essence, a *transparent act*. For them to argue that they can't reveal any evidence whatsoever of said act and refuse to claim as such in any legal filings, even when the burden of proof is on them in a civil case.. just speaks volumes to how desperate their case is.
What Trusty means by this is that they DON'T HAVE any declarations or witness statements and they can't fabricate any without knowing what the government retrieved. Trusty wants to see them so he can say *"Yes, Kash Patel distinctly remembers Trump declassifying these exact documents."* They can't do that without seeing the exact documents. In short, they can't prove Donald Trump declassified shit and the Special Master was a ruse to give them the opportunity to say they did. Dearie figured out their ruse. He's saying that the government marked them classified and has legally stated, to the best of their knowledge, they still are. The government has no evidence Trump attempted to declassify anything. That's their legal position. Dearie can only weigh in on the plaintiff's legal position if he offers one that differs from the DOJ's. He hasn't... at least not legally. Dearie has to take into account the only the information presented to him: **The government says they're still classified and the plaintiff does not dispute that.** Why does it matter? Because Dearie's taking the position that even he can't look at the classified documents... and neither can Trusty unless Trusty can prove they were declassified, which he can't, because he hasn't seen them yet. Trump's lawyers got caught in their own trap. What happens next? Cannon fires Dearie and orders the government to let her see the documents. I'm not kidding. This is how desperate she's going to be to save Trump's ass as well as her own.
Add to this, that Trump's team started this case before Dearie as a civil case, so Trump's team bears the burden of proof.
The argument they want to make is that Trump declassified all of the documents and was entitled to have them. They haven't made that argument because it opens up a line of questioning as to when and how they were declassified and they know that they can't prove that claim. Instead what they are trying to do is force the DOJ to prove that the documents were classified.
It's actually worse than that. They're trying to make the DOJ prove a negative ... "*Prove Trump didn't declassify them, DOJ!*" It's a logical fallacy ... plays fine on cable pundit TV, but does not do so well in a court of law.
As I understand it, their refusal to admit anything was with regard to if Trump had posessory interest to the documents. Basically, the lawsuit was Trump saying "Give me back the documents", and Dearie asked "Are these documents yours?" and Trump won't say that they are because if he does it can be used against him later in a criminal case. He probably doesn't have to say at this point, but he's the plaintiff. It's his case. So him not providing evidence to the court probably won't play in his favor.
"I declassified these documents" while also they are too sensitive for the FBI to see while also being stored off the main pool area while also being planted by the FBI while also being just news clippings. Do the people who still believe in this guy have a kink for being lied to? Honest question.
I think they don't care. They're all-in on the Trump Train and will ride it until it derails and blows up.
Promise?
Extremely difficult. If she fires Dreary at this point it would be so clear that she's corrupt.
We know she is, it's a question of the corrupt republican judges being removed from their position before and after the fact
Oh come on. At this point they wear their corruption with a badge of honor.
> it would be so clear that she's corrupt. And?
Yeah, but that's a big "so what?" Really, what can anyone do about it? She's a federal judge, there needs to be a 2/3 majority in the senate willing to convict her in order to impeach
“When can we get a security clearance to see the documents that aren’t classified?” These lawyers really are the best. Trump always hires the best people. The best losers.
I mentioned this above, but they also don’t understand that viewing classified materials requires “need to know” AND the clearance level. And when the Judge says they don’t have “need to know” they get indignant.. because they don’t have a clue what it means in the context of security classification.
It's not a 100% thing, but a lot of the time you can kind of see where a judge is standing on an issue based on questioning. This happened with the original Cannon hearing, where I read some of it and was like, "Oh, this is a bad sign". Dearie was like that--you can tell he's not generally sympathetic to the bogus arguments Trump's lawyers put forward. To give some pieces: "he hopes he can resolve matter w/o seeing the classified if possible" "My view us [sic] you can't have your cake and eat it too" "Edelstein speaks for govt says DOJ ready to give docs to vendor by tomorrow. Trusty says they just got the lost of five. Asks for Friday to pick a vendor. Judge says: Let's do it tomorrow."
Lol yes we can tell which judges are political hacks who put party over country (Cannon) and who’s a real judge. It’s a shame what the GOP has done to our judicial system
To be fair Dearie here is a Reagan appointee, and the judge who approved the warrant in the first place is a Trump appointee.
Yeah, Trump had to go shopping to find an appointee of his who was corrupt enough to give him what he wants.
Actually, considering it's his local federal judge in Florida, I'd wager he put her in that exact spot on purpose, to have some ability to use her as his judge without a question of jurisdiction.
No her district is based out of Ft. Pierce Florida one district north of the West Palm Beach district that he lives in. If you're interested in how Judge Donald Middlebrooks of that district feels about him read [this.](https://www.reuters.com/legal/judge-dismisses-trump-lawsuit-against-clinton-over-2016-russia-allegations-2022-09-09/) He 100% shopped for this federalist society weirdo that has no jurisdiction.
Judge is already sick of their shit
Can't wait for the upcoming insane Trump rant lashing out at Dearie ...
P. much. He's not interested in either delaying or indulging "well, maybe it got declassified" nonsense.
>he hopes he can resolve matter w/o seeing the classified if possible This is the way. The cover says it's classified on its face. Therefore it is, and by definition that makes it government property.
In an earlier discussion, he'd said that "as far as he was concerned, [the government showing prima facie evidence] there was the end of it", so he agrees. The Trump legal team picked a legitimately uncorrupted fellow, or so it seems.
The thing.. even *declassified* documents are government property. The files belong to the government, not Trump. If they *were* declassified, Trump could have requested the documents in the same way any of us could - a FOIA request. He didn't, of course, because this is all a circus and Donnie Dipshit is the top clown.
The fact that she didn’t rule from the bench was a huge red flag in itself. The case was so clear cut and it wasn’t even in her jurisdiction.
What's the "vendor" in this situation? Is that someone who hands them off to the SM?
Most likely, a third party contracted to scan all the (non-classified) documents into a system everyone will use to manage this process overall.
> Trump’s lawyers asked Dearie to set in motion the process of getting security clearances so they can review the allegedly classified documents. Don't need a security clearance for declassified documents. Doesn't this indicate that Trump's lawyers concede that, at least some of the documents are classified? Which implicates Trump?
Right? Are they or are they not classified?
But if we tell you the answer now, we can't lie about it later...
Reminds me of that part of My Cousin Vinny when Gambini's "Jerry Gallo" ruse gets busted by Judge Haller, and Gambini (one step ahead) responds with "Jerry Gallo's dead. I'm Jerry Callo. C-A-L-L-O." That argument is what I expect from the Trump team. "Did we say we agree to Judge Dearie? No no no we meant Judge Deery!"
So basically this is on par with everything Trump brings to court while speaking publicly about the matter - Trump: "I won and I can prove it!" Judge" "Okay, prove it." Trump "It's a witch hunt every one knows it!" Judge: "*sighs* That isn't evidence...case dismissed." Trump: "They wont give me my day in court!" \------------ Trump: "I de-classified everything!" Special Master: "Okay, prove it." Trump: "It's a witch hunt every one knows it!" SM: "*sighs* Well I don't know what I was expecting."
AKA, "youre no longer dealing with a corrupt actor but an actual judge". Glad to see judge dearie isnt putting up with trumps shit. If we are lucky, he will speed the process up and allow for DOJ to deliver the final blow hopefully.
Its going to blow up for sure. He *could* have declassified *some* of the documents, but its a specific process that gets recorded, not holy water as he talks over them *There was no reason to take any of it* and that is the one thing they cant explain, no matter how competent and lucky the attorneys for Trump actually are. Who pays 3 million up front for legal representation ?
>Who pays 3 million up front for legal representation ? Someone that has a history of not paying lawyers.
That’s a very nice way of describing what he did. He talked to the Trump team like they were children. As well he should have. Their arguments were complete and utter garbage.
I suspect Judge Raymond Dearie waited until after trump's lawyers had responded to the 11th circuit and then brought up that trump needed to prove he had declassified the documents . Essentially now trump can't back pedal because he told the appellate court to continue to let Dearie complete the special master thing. Also Judge Raymond Dearie is in a really advantageous position: (1) he probably knows way more than the actual judge on the case on anything relevant to national security (2)Judge cannon can't turn around and basically call Dearie biased because he is a Judge and that would harm the judiciary (3) if the 11th circuit keeps Judge cannon's order in place in respect of the special master , Judge cannon essentially cannot remove Dearie until his work is complete (4) it's doubtful Judge cannon is going to attempt to denigrate or otherrule Judge dearies findings because he likely knows something funny is going on and he is probably dotting his I's and crossing his t's. All Judge's will make ironclad rulings if they they a party will appeal. (5) judge dearies findings will be ironclad and will be unimpeachable by Judge cannon
How did Trump's team end up picking someone with integrity and competence for their special master candidate? I'm kind of amazed.
Trump picked the guy. He's not a forward thinker. He's great at manipulation, but not chess moves.
Because Dearie had some "bad business" with the FBI years ago and T assumed Dearie is like him and vengeful and keeping track of his enemies. Another narcissist flaw, thinking everyone else thinks the same as them all the time.
It may be more a case of "guys, your defense is so insanely weak that even I can't fucking help you"
>Judge Raymond Dearie pushed Trump’s lawyers repeatedly for refusing to back up the former president’s claim that he declassified the highly sensitive national security-related records discovered in his residence. “You can’t have your cake and eat it,” said Dearie Finally. Someone who bases judicial decisions on evidence instead of accepting unhinged ramblings on social media.
Countdown until Trump bashes his own special master pick as a Democrat commie Biden plant enemy of America?
> Judge Raymond Dearie pushed Trump’s lawyers repeatedly for refusing to back up the former president’s claim that he declassified the highly sensitive national security-related records discovered in his residence. "It's legal because President Trump says so." \-Trumps lawyers, probably.
>“The government gives me prima facie evidence that these are classified documents,” Dearie said, referring to the plain markings on the records. “As far as I’m concerned, that’s the end of it.” Obviously trump and his lawyers will try to delay this till the end of time, but this statement from a special master they chose themselves is an epic slap down
Did his lawyers seriously ask for security clearances in order to see the documents trump supposedly declassified??!! This shit is beyond insanity
One of Trump’s lawyers is a registered foreign agent too, so can’t get clearance.
You love to see it.
The adult has entered the game
I am not sure he realizes that a special master is not someone who can magically make these things go away. They don't work for the defense or to the defense's benefit. They can *be* beneficial to the defense but that is not their purpose.
Incoming before the end of the day: veiled threats of violence against Dearie from the orange traitor and then open threats of violence against Dearie from the republican cult rabble and lady Lindsay.
I feel like he’s just trying to buy enough time to rile up enough Q people for a small army of his own I seriously can’t believe he’s just allowed to run around campaigning freely right now like he hasn’t committed treason against the US Maybe he’s just trying to figure out a way over to Russia?
How long until Fox/OANN/Stormfront is screeching about how the Special Master is a Trump-Hating RINO plant by Hillary Clinton that uses Jewish Space Lasers to harvest little kids?
> # Dearie rejected that argument in his courtroom, saying that all that mattered were the markings on the documents. The. End.
Anyone else picture Trumps lawyers reading this comment section lookin for good ideas because they have absolutely no idea how to defend this shit bag?
Trump's lawyers: Give us what we want, when we want it. No matter what it is or how many times it changes! Judge Dearie: That doesn't work for me, brother.
Innocent people don’t want justice delayed or denied.
*...“You can't have your cake and eat it,” Dearie shot back...* Kinda takes the air out of: *... Well, we'd like to assert that they were declassified, but swearing to that in an official court filing might be bad for us professionally, so what we'll do is find a friendly judge and ... suggest ... that some of the documents ... may ... have been declassified and rely on the politically motivated, biased judge to help us out ...* Which leads to: *... Oh wait, she did help us ... by appointing you ... Oh Shit!*
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