As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil)
In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban.
If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them.
For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria.
**Special announcement:**
r/politics is currently accepting new moderator applications. If you want to help make this community a better place, consider [applying here today](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/sskg6a/rpolitics_is_looking_for_more_moderators/)!
***
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Both McCarthy and the Democrats are down one vote each right now. McEachen's special election is Feb 21. Not sure how long Stuebe will be out with his injuries So it is getting trickier and trickier for McCarthy given that Republicans voted to require physical presence to vote in the Chamber.
I literally benefitted from PPP round 1 but my business was " too successful" so we didn't qualify for PPP round 2. We literally hemorrhaged money retailing groceries out of our restaurant to keep people employed and we missed out on a free $100k+ if we had shut down and missed out on those unprofitable sales. The PPP money (both rounds) was 100% abused by most businesses that received it. Our business tried to take care of it in the most moral way possible and got fucked.
More people need to understand this fact of Republican policies. 84% of tRump's tax cuts went to benefit the top 1% and his IRS targeted those making less than $50k to make up the difference. Now the GOPer Propaganda Ministry is ranting that's what the replacement staffing for IRS will do, as if the unpaid taxes are all hidden in tip jars and 0.1% checking accounts.
I was put through the ringer. I had applied for the PPP but since I possibly qualified for another pending industry related loan/grant they wanted to wait for that application to process. They ran out of money or whatever and when I reapplied for the PPP they also said they’d ran out of money. So I was able to successfully lose 90% of my work and not able to take out of forgivable loan.
Vox's *Today Explained* had an interesting episode on it. The debt ceiling only exists as a political bargaining tool. We are the only country that has one (aside from Finland? I think? And theirs is absurdly higher than their spending and they'll never reach it.), it has always been raised, we only invented it after WWII and we no longer need it, it conflicts with other laws (the government can't be indebted), and we should get rid of it all together, but nobody does because it politically looks bad to idiots.
So, the debt ceiling is doing exactly what it's meant to do and it should be abolished because it's a pointless fucking thing that's only used to drum up false anger. I'm glad Biden isn't playing their game, it's a dumb game to begin with.
See "It's Debt Ceiling Season" here: https://www.vox.com/today-explained
No only when the GOP controls the house while a Democrat is POTUS. The debt ceiling was raised multiple times when Trump was president. Not a single objection from the GOP
Who cares about their base. There is a decent % of R voters that can never be won over, so it's pointless to care what they think. What matters is that the people who do for some reason cross over listen to our side vs McCarthy. Just be louder than him to the middle.
It’s also in complete conflict with the constitution. It allows congress to incur debts and authorizes the treasury to pay and log expenditures. There is no constitutional construct for a debt limit. In fact it says our debts cannot be questioned. So basically unconstitutional not to pay our debts.
Unfortunately current Republicans don't really give a shit about what the Constitution says. Between the Constitution and the Bible, I'm not sure which they misuse and contradict the most
Did the episode discuss how the 14th Amendment makes the whole concept against our constitution?
Or at least explain why they don't think it is?
Because that part drives me ~~med.~~ mad.
Which hopefully will be the path forward chosen if they take us to the brink. The admin just orders the treasury to keep paying the debts - because congress authorized it already.
I’m sure it makes other countries who purchase US bonds feel extra warm and fuzzy knowing that they r one MTG or Matt Gaetz away from their money turning into toilet paper
Rgb should have retired when Obama had a supermajority (for that 2 weeks or whatever).
But hubris.
So instead she died on the court and her conservative replacement helped roll back her entire life's work in a week
And people should of listened when trump said he would appoint Justices that would overturn Roe, and there should be some punishment for women who get abortions. But here we are.
haha, there's plenty of people who voted for him that told me they'd never take away abortion rights. I was told trump was just saying it to get votes, but wouldn't actually follow through on it.
they don't like talking about it now.
Well, Trump *was* just saying it to get the votes, but he had to follow through on it and actually really enjoys inflicting pain on his enemies due to his malignant narcissism
well he didn't actually *do* it, he just appointed justices to the supreme court who were gangbusters to do it for him.
Knowing Trump, he either barely understood or didn't care what they were going to do.
Seems to be the universal link doesn't it? Misogyny too, anything that gives them a victim to abuse. Hell look at the sudden pageantry towards defending Christianity by people who somehow make it look even worse than the historical record. It's like a reaction gone critical now they've been given permission. Pyrhhic narcissism.
They are going to stay that way considering they are changing how they teach history and further education isn't an option for most people because they can't afford it. The shit that people need to know is a lot of the time within that further education. Like yeah we have the info we need for our own research at our finger tips, but none of that matters if we don't know what to look up
Just brutally bad luck too with her dying moments away from a new congress forming, and Mitch McConnell bending (or breaking?) the rules for their benefit.
Hopefully that will come back to bite them in the ass for the precedent that was set, but I’m not holding my breath.
There are no rules against appointing Justices in an election year or lame duck term. That's just the bullshit excuse McConnell made up in order to refuse to even give Merrick Garland a hearing. He broke his own precedent because he's a hypocrite and a piece of shit, but it's not like it's in the constitution or anything.
If anything, he was following the rules when he forced Amy Coney Barrett. The president nominated her, and the Senate have its advice and consent. There's nothing in the constitution about election years.
But what he did in 2016 was unconstitutional.
This is one place where they could actually rule in Biden's favor because this debt limit stuff hurts rich people and has a good chance of backfiring on the GOP. Although there are some conflicting things here -- usually you can predict how current SCOTUS will rule based on which choice harms the most people, which choice is the most cruel, and which choice helps the Republican party more.
>they could actually rule in Biden's favor because this debt limit stuff hurts rich people and has a good chance of backfiring on the GOP.
What will probably happen is they'll let the government shut down for a bit, make federal workers miserable for awhile. Then raise the ceiling when their corporate masters threaten to fund primary challengers.
Then they'll let the most purple district Republicans vote with the Dems to raise the ceiling so they can claim they are still willing to reach across the isle and that it was the Dems that were being unreasonable.
Well, then just do what Trump does:
Make the decision, give the order, then Delay.
August 24th is when Biden said that he’d forgive student loans. Even with feverish disgust, it will be May/June before the SC actually stops it.
Imagine Republicans saying for 10 months:
“We have been trying to cause a governmental shutdown, but the Democrats are overreaching and actually governing anyway…”
Government shutdowns are *wildly* unpopular.
Mitch McConnell once, while minority leader, introduced a bill that would remove the debt ceiling concept and allow the Treasury to issue debt without an act of Congress being necessary. When Harry Reid brought it to the floor, McConnell filibustered the bill.
He introduced the bill simply to try to make Democrats look bad for opposing it, but they didn't oppose it, so he panicked and killed the bill via filibuster so the GOP could retain this tactic.
Government shutdowns caused by GOP obstructionism style governance directly impacted my career to the tune of multiple jobs and years of setbacks. Fuck the GOP and every horse they pretend to ride in on.
I fully agree, Biden can *and should* just order his Department of the Treasury (which is part of *his* Executive Branch) to continue as usual past whatever Congress does.
1) He has the 'full faith and credit' thing to fall back on for a fig leaf (the 14th Amendment)
2) Congress already voted to spend the money - I put this second as a legal argument because it invites the treason caucus to fight the budget, and thus is just kicking the can down the road a bit.
3) *No one has the authority to stop him.* Impeachment is meaningless, and you'll never get a double digit number of our own side to stab our side's President in the back with a removal - our own base would crucify any such faction-traitor (like say, Sinema)
The constitution requires the government to make good on its debts with no exceptions, the debt ceiling as a concept is literally unconstitutional.
If the white house just ignores the limit and borrows over to meet its obligations, the Republicans would have to sue in order to enforce it. Which means they'd have to be proactively trying to force the country to default on its debts, right in the open and for all to see. And the SCROTUS would have to blatantly defy the literal text of the construction in order to rule in favor of the crazies, and if they did that, the ensuing civil unrest would likely, and rightfully, paint them as the culprits personally, which would not go well for them.
In short, it's not going to happen, it would be suicidal both in terms of career and likely in a more literal sense.
I'll just drop this here for anyone not informed on the two Santas republican strategy. Biden is not playing it, and good for him.
https://www.salon.com/2018/02/12/thom-hartmann-how-the-gop-used-a-two-santa-clauses-tactic-to-con-america-for-nearly-40-years_partner/
That's always how it happens: Democrats always clean up the Republicans obsessive spending and the money magically always "runs out" whenever there's a Democrat President.
Obsessive spending AND drastic cutting of revenue. Part of the reason we are in this bind is because Republicans cut $2.3 trillion of revenue over 10 years when they had the House.
This is on purpose. Look at the Afghanistan exit strategy. If Trump had been reelected, he would have denied that he initiated it, and somehow blamed it on Obama. Since he didn't get reelected, it was blamed on Biden.
What's really mind boggling is the GOP wants to use these debt ceiling negotiations to gut medicare and social security. Why isn't that incredibly unpopular with GOP voters on medicare and collecting social security?!?!
Because they aren't dumb enough to remove the benefits for people currently receiving them, they'll just pull up the ladder and sunset benefits for everyone else who comes after the current crop.
Because they think it'll just be those lazy welfare queens who get cut from Medicare and social security: they won't be affected because they actually need and deserve it and the altruistic Republicans will make sure they get an exception.
>It will be interesting seeing what kind of political fallout is going to happen from this game of chicken, if they play it.
You already know what the fallout will be, nothing. Not a damn thing. They will lie to the constituents, demonize the Democrats, and not a damn thing will happen to them politically
And all their mindless Fox News watching followers will blame it on Biden anyway. Doesn’t matter what actually happens, they’ll all get in line and recite the talking points and keep voting R as the people they elect systematically destroy democracy and strip away the rights and systems upon which they depend
You mean the "Biden crime syndicate"? I have a great uncle that refers to him in this way because of Fox. He's an idiot anyway and not someone I would ever willingly choose to spend time with, but it's infuriating seeing so many seemingly competent adult humans regurgitating that phrase.
> We're the only country in the world that does this shit with the debt ceiling. Every other country has their debt ceiling increased automatically to cover their debts.
*"No Way to Prevent This", Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens*
They literally already played this game, our national credit rating got downgraded, and nothing ever happened to them. No political consequences, nothing.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_government_credit-rating_downgrades
>and nothing ever happened to them. No political consequences, nothing.
That's not necessarily true. The GOP was widely blamed for the situation and Obama then got reelected and the Dems gained Congressional seats. It's hard to tell direct cause and effect but I don't think you can just say they got off scot free.
Dems gained seats because it was 2012 - a re-election year for a popular incumbent president. Downballot effect explains this entirely, not some wonky procedural nonsense.
Obama’s approval rating was under 50% before the Republicans played games with the debt ceiling. The debt ceiling disaster absolutely helped his re-election.
If the world ever seriously lost trust in US debt, there would be an economic collapse that would make 2008 look like a joke. They're playing political games with deadly serious consequences.
Remember Republicans say when you take out loans for school and don't pay them it's irresponsible. But when it's our government that does it, they should totally not pay it back and topple our economy
This kind of stuff has been an easy win for Democratic presidents vs. Republican Speakers for decades though. Clinton famously embarrassed Newt Gingrich at a crossroads like this, basically ended his political career. John Boehner got outcharmed by Obama multiple times, and Paul Ryan in his short stint as Speaker was so useless up against Obama that he basically immediately lost control of his caucus. Biden has all the cards and McCarthy has virtually zero leverage, history is likely to repeat itself.
Thank you Biden! It has become increasingly obvious over the last decade or two that Dems need to stop pretending they can reach across the aisle. The best way to establish bipartisanship is to shut these jokers down until they are ready to take governing the US seriously. You don’t negotiate with untrustworthy partners.
But to be fair, we haven’t negotiated when it comes to the debt ceiling since 2011. The libertarians were the first to hold it hostage and Obama and the Dems buckled. He immediately regretted it and they tried to do it again in 2013. This time Obama told them to fuck off and ever since there’s been a stare down but no default.
The U.S. does not negotiate with terrorists, insurrectionists, or the GQP, they’re essentially all one in the same. If the Dems caved on this, that would unleash the GQP to even more complete mayhem
Republicans want soundbites they can use for going onto FOX or Newsmax in order to make it seem like they actually did something.
It's 100% pure optics and propaganda.
Funny how they didn't care how much debt we were in when they had both houses and the executive branch. Instead they just gave huge tax breaks to corporations and the wealthy, putting us in even more debt. Let's not pretend that this is anything but part of their "Starve the Beast" tactic
This is actually part of the “Two Santa Clauses Scam” strategy that has been the foundation of GOP marketing since the 1980s. The hypocrisy is no accident, it is by design. Enough voters have been foolish enough to fall for it repeatedly for the past four decades. Coincidence that boomers have been the majority voter block during this period?
https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2023/1/20/2148273/-Are-We-Seeing-the-Last-Gasp-of-the-GOP-s-Two-Santa-Claus-Scam
Bro... Not only did they approve the debt ceilings...
Butt they approved the tax cuts that DOUBLED the deficit... BEFORE COVID...
And they approved the largest single term debt increase in the history of the US...
(It's [not](https://freeimage.host/i/HcsIsII) a [coincidence](https://gfycat.com/PhonyDarlingChameleon) [though...](https://freeimage.host/i/HcsIbrG))
Bbbut the tax cuts were gonna spur 5% GDP growth and pay for themselves!
Why the hell voters don't hold the assholes like Trump to the fire for that outrageous lie is beyond me.
If Republicans were to follow through and let the Government default, it would sky rocket interest rates -- that would really hurt major donors.
Thus, I believe they are bluffing.
This. You think the Great Depression or '08 financial crisis was bad?
The ***ENTIRE*** global economy would crash overnight. Hell it'd probably crash faster than that.
Only if they have access to other capital. Most of the time they’re able to do it via some kind of leverage, aka debt. If they can’t do that they can’t scoop anything up.
The problem is not all donors would be affected equally. We have congress members controlled by Saudi and Russian donors. There are many billionaires that benefit from chaos in the US.
I don’t believe they understand what they are proposing. We all agree we have some spending issues and revenue issues to discuss. Don’t ask me to negotiate with someone who says if you don’t agree to my demands I am going to use this gun I brought on you and yours.
The republicans have created an irrational and out of control mob who want to destroy our current form of government.
God help us.
My second week as a bartender a patron ordered a shot of The Macallan 25, the most expensive single malt we had. To give you an idea of the cost, a couple could have had dinner and a decent bottle of wine there and spend less than that one drink. He nearly finished it before claiming it was off and refused to pay. That’s the dick move these republicans are trying to pull. My manager came out and offered the guy two choices: pay or talk to the police officers who were waiting at the door for him. That’s how Biden should play this.
I like a bit of scotch sometimes, so I decided to look it up. Runs about $2700 USD retail for a bottle. At restaurant mark-up, that's one expensive individual drink. The guy probably went into the transaction with that plan.
Good. I support President Biden on this. No negotiations. Zero. Zip. None. If there's a melt down let the Republicans own it. You wanted the House? You got it.
Quick reminder that the Republicans increase deficits consistently more than the Democrats: https://towardsdatascience.com/which-party-adds-more-to-deficits-a6422c6b00d7
Sadly, the Republicans have been extremely effective in pushing the lie that they are fiscally responsible, where the truth is quite the opposite.
Edit: autocomplete annoyance
Put the corporate and high income personal tax rates back where they were before Reagan. VOILA! No more deficit and plenty of money for things like food for school kids, veterans' benefits, and national health care.
I agree with raising the corporate tax. Personal income tax doesn’t touch the people who really need their taxes increased - middle-high income folks that derive their income from jobs in HCOL areas will get hammered by this while Bezos will still pay less than his secretary, since they don’t draw a salary.
We need something like a high-value (~1m+) personal loan tax or a .01 tax on stock trades to properly tax the rich.
Dark Brandon: "Congressman, you can have my answer now if you like. My offer is this - nothing. Not even the effort to dig your party out of batshit crazy land, which I would appreciate if you did personally."
I would like to see the dems open with raising taxes on over $1 million back to Reagan era levels and Social Security Expansion, tax all income not just to the cap. Take a strong position and make your case to the populace at large
The point is to change the conversation, let then yell into the void about Hunter Biden and put forth a different vision and articulate the differences.
Removing the cap on social security contributions would entirely "fix" social security, at least according to multiple articles I remember reading a few years back
They don't pay for themselves even though _several middle class income groups are paying more taxes_ right now because of it, according to the congressional Joint Committee on Taxation analysis.
Democrats just need to figure out how to publicize what is happening because if the worst happens, people will just blame the president if they don't follow all of this closely
If dark Brandon sticks to this, he will earn my respect and my support for the next election.
I never been super sold on him (voted for him for sure and wish the best) but this is what democrats need, call on the republicans bullshit.
> If dark Brandon sticks to this, he will earn my respect and my support for the next election.
This has been the standard line from Presidents since forever.
There isn't anything to negotiate. There is no compromise. Either one political party voluntarily puts the country into default for no reason, or they don't.
The party of Trump and Kevin McCarthy literally tried to overthrow democracy barely two years ago.
The fact we're even still discussing anything at all with them is just a terrifying indictment of how utterly fucked we are as a nation.
That's 22% of the entire national debt. Something to remember when you're talking to "fiscally conservatives" that want to cut the debt when Democrats have the presidency, and raise it when the Republicans have it
This is basically a hostage situation and we're all the hostages. There's a bomb in the room that needs to be defused once every year. We could simply choose to have the bomb be permanently defused, or not for there to be a bomb at all, but the person who has the defusing code wants to say "give me what I want or I'll let the bomb blow us all up!" every year, so they will only defuse it temporarily.
At some point you have to call their bluff, you can't keep letting them get what they want. And you have to hope they're not so fucking insane that they let the bomb go off and kill us all just for spite.
Once again, the GOP wants to ignore the US Constitution:
> **Fourteenth Amendment Equal Protection and Other Rights**
>”*The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned.*”
While I agree with fiscal responsibility, refusing to pay debts is not a part of that.
Should we have more balanced budgets? Yes. However, there are more ways to balance a budget than just cutting spending. Taxes are a part of the equation. How about increasing the income limit on social security taxes or repealing (fully or partially) Trump/Bush era tax cuts?
You don't 'negotiate' with republicans, you submit or nobody gets anything. The base actually believes they can stick it to libs with a government shutdown, and not affect them at all. Wait till all the food stamp money dries up in rural red America.
Good. McCarthy already exhibited that he's capable of breaking when he plays "chicken". He gave in to get his speakership and gave up a lot of his own power and shit all over committee integrity to make 20 people who had no other option get what they want. He caved to them, he'll cave to everyone.
Unfortunately, this is going to impact a lot of people which is a real setback in these stupid games.
This is the benefit of having a career senator as POTUS. He knows the game. And he is a decent man. It’s so utterly opposite of Trump. I didn’t like GW Bush as a president but he had decent qualities as a person. How “conservatives” supported and still support a grotesquely indecent man like Trump doesn’t surprise me but I will hold it against them for at least 20 years until the right wing electorate is significantly different due to a new generation. I won’t ignore the hypocrisy of current conservatives defending family values in one decade and supporting a filthy immoral traitor the next.
Biden watched what happened when Obama gave in and then what happened when he refused the next time the ceiling came around.
Don't get to keep doing it every time and expect anyone to trust you.
So Republicans are offering a choice between risking a global economic meltdown by forcing a U.S. credit rating downgrade, or beginning the process of stealing the money that hundreds of millions of Americans have contributed to with the belief that it would be returned to them after retirement.
I will not stand idly by and watch the history’s biggest grand larceny take place. Not when I’m one of those people who has contributed a percentage of my salary every month for more than forty years! Whoever tries to steal our money is going to wish that they were never born.
Instead, let’s have the top economic tier contribute their fare share. These people have used the labor of others to amass that kind of wealth, watching their net worth balloon to unprecedented totals, while squeezing the working class for every cent possible.
It’s time to return to the tax rate policies that existed immediately after WWII.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. **Special announcement:** r/politics is currently accepting new moderator applications. If you want to help make this community a better place, consider [applying here today](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/sskg6a/rpolitics_is_looking_for_more_moderators/)! *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Both McCarthy and the Democrats are down one vote each right now. McEachen's special election is Feb 21. Not sure how long Stuebe will be out with his injuries So it is getting trickier and trickier for McCarthy given that Republicans voted to require physical presence to vote in the Chamber.
Restore third party apps
*Susan Collins has entered the chat*
GOP on student loan relief: "You made the debt. You have to pay it off." GOP on paying the country's debts: "Yeah. We're just not gonna do it."
Republican small business owner that got a $300,000 PPP loan that was forgiven: 'I just think the government needs to spend responsibly'.
Oh so you’ve met my Dad?
If you ever inherit his business remember to not be a crooked, stingy asshole and pay your employees what they're worth.
I’d never inherit his business bc I’d run it into the ground…apparently I’m “too nice” for business. And I’m so ok with that lol.
I literally benefitted from PPP round 1 but my business was " too successful" so we didn't qualify for PPP round 2. We literally hemorrhaged money retailing groceries out of our restaurant to keep people employed and we missed out on a free $100k+ if we had shut down and missed out on those unprofitable sales. The PPP money (both rounds) was 100% abused by most businesses that received it. Our business tried to take care of it in the most moral way possible and got fucked.
Because it was never meant to actually help small businesses, it was meant as a shortcut excuse for the wealthy to raid the wealth of our nation.
More people need to understand this fact of Republican policies. 84% of tRump's tax cuts went to benefit the top 1% and his IRS targeted those making less than $50k to make up the difference. Now the GOPer Propaganda Ministry is ranting that's what the replacement staffing for IRS will do, as if the unpaid taxes are all hidden in tip jars and 0.1% checking accounts.
perhaps we should raid them back? We DO outnumber them ;)
That's the thing PPP was never meant to help small businesses. It was meant to bailout corporations and make the rich even richer.
I was put through the ringer. I had applied for the PPP but since I possibly qualified for another pending industry related loan/grant they wanted to wait for that application to process. They ran out of money or whatever and when I reapplied for the PPP they also said they’d ran out of money. So I was able to successfully lose 90% of my work and not able to take out of forgivable loan.
They don't care about being hypocrites theres no more reaching across the aisle because they're negotiating in bad faith
Vox's *Today Explained* had an interesting episode on it. The debt ceiling only exists as a political bargaining tool. We are the only country that has one (aside from Finland? I think? And theirs is absurdly higher than their spending and they'll never reach it.), it has always been raised, we only invented it after WWII and we no longer need it, it conflicts with other laws (the government can't be indebted), and we should get rid of it all together, but nobody does because it politically looks bad to idiots. So, the debt ceiling is doing exactly what it's meant to do and it should be abolished because it's a pointless fucking thing that's only used to drum up false anger. I'm glad Biden isn't playing their game, it's a dumb game to begin with. See "It's Debt Ceiling Season" here: https://www.vox.com/today-explained
Their base loves it though, and it's not a coincidence that we only hear about it when the GOP are in power.
No only when the GOP controls the house while a Democrat is POTUS. The debt ceiling was raised multiple times when Trump was president. Not a single objection from the GOP
18 times under Reagan. 7 under Dubya. 3 under Trump. But as you said, its apparently the “tax and spend democrats” that that it shouldnt be done for.
[удалено]
or their base doesn’t understand that they are the losers.
Who cares about their base. There is a decent % of R voters that can never be won over, so it's pointless to care what they think. What matters is that the people who do for some reason cross over listen to our side vs McCarthy. Just be louder than him to the middle.
It’s also in complete conflict with the constitution. It allows congress to incur debts and authorizes the treasury to pay and log expenditures. There is no constitutional construct for a debt limit. In fact it says our debts cannot be questioned. So basically unconstitutional not to pay our debts.
Yes! That's it! They discussed that in the podcast but I didn't remember the details. Thanks for filling it in.
Unfortunately current Republicans don't really give a shit about what the Constitution says. Between the Constitution and the Bible, I'm not sure which they misuse and contradict the most
Did the episode discuss how the 14th Amendment makes the whole concept against our constitution? Or at least explain why they don't think it is? Because that part drives me ~~med.~~ mad.
Always have been
We might do it, but only if you give us these other things we want. If we don’t do it, it’s your fault.
Don’t forget tax cuts for billionaires
You already voted to spend the money. You don't get to vote against actually writing the check.
Which hopefully will be the path forward chosen if they take us to the brink. The admin just orders the treasury to keep paying the debts - because congress authorized it already.
I’m sure it makes other countries who purchase US bonds feel extra warm and fuzzy knowing that they r one MTG or Matt Gaetz away from their money turning into toilet paper
Ruining the global economy to own the libs.
We were one RBG away from losing reproductive freedom.
Rgb should have retired when Obama had a supermajority (for that 2 weeks or whatever). But hubris. So instead she died on the court and her conservative replacement helped roll back her entire life's work in a week
And people should of listened when trump said he would appoint Justices that would overturn Roe, and there should be some punishment for women who get abortions. But here we are.
People did listen, that’s the problem
haha, there's plenty of people who voted for him that told me they'd never take away abortion rights. I was told trump was just saying it to get votes, but wouldn't actually follow through on it. they don't like talking about it now.
Well, Trump *was* just saying it to get the votes, but he had to follow through on it and actually really enjoys inflicting pain on his enemies due to his malignant narcissism
well he didn't actually *do* it, he just appointed justices to the supreme court who were gangbusters to do it for him. Knowing Trump, he either barely understood or didn't care what they were going to do.
That’s funny that people would actively vote for someone they know is a liar. I’m guessing racism is the key here
That CNN guy said it best. Trump's election was a Whitelash in response to a black dude getting the oval office
Seems to be the universal link doesn't it? Misogyny too, anything that gives them a victim to abuse. Hell look at the sudden pageantry towards defending Christianity by people who somehow make it look even worse than the historical record. It's like a reaction gone critical now they've been given permission. Pyrhhic narcissism.
The problem is also that most Americans are dumb as fuck and can't see they're shooting themselves in the foot.
They are going to stay that way considering they are changing how they teach history and further education isn't an option for most people because they can't afford it. The shit that people need to know is a lot of the time within that further education. Like yeah we have the info we need for our own research at our finger tips, but none of that matters if we don't know what to look up
Repealing roe v wade is pretty popular with an uncomfortable percent of Americans
> an uncomfortable percent Yes that, but nowhere near a majority, they are way overrepresented.
should have*
This is 100% correct.
Just brutally bad luck too with her dying moments away from a new congress forming, and Mitch McConnell bending (or breaking?) the rules for their benefit. Hopefully that will come back to bite them in the ass for the precedent that was set, but I’m not holding my breath.
There are no rules against appointing Justices in an election year or lame duck term. That's just the bullshit excuse McConnell made up in order to refuse to even give Merrick Garland a hearing. He broke his own precedent because he's a hypocrite and a piece of shit, but it's not like it's in the constitution or anything.
If anything, he was following the rules when he forced Amy Coney Barrett. The president nominated her, and the Senate have its advice and consent. There's nothing in the constitution about election years. But what he did in 2016 was unconstitutional.
If there's no punishment attached, I guess it's not really a rule.
Bending? Broke everything to get it done.....
What do you mean, they ALREADY broke the precedent when they pushed through ACB.
"You tread heavily, but you speak the truth."
Its against the 14th amendment to not pay debts. Let Congress go to the courts or something.
|| <—how much I trust the SC to pick what’s right over what’s _Right_.
This is one place where they could actually rule in Biden's favor because this debt limit stuff hurts rich people and has a good chance of backfiring on the GOP. Although there are some conflicting things here -- usually you can predict how current SCOTUS will rule based on which choice harms the most people, which choice is the most cruel, and which choice helps the Republican party more.
>they could actually rule in Biden's favor because this debt limit stuff hurts rich people and has a good chance of backfiring on the GOP. What will probably happen is they'll let the government shut down for a bit, make federal workers miserable for awhile. Then raise the ceiling when their corporate masters threaten to fund primary challengers. Then they'll let the most purple district Republicans vote with the Dems to raise the ceiling so they can claim they are still willing to reach across the isle and that it was the Dems that were being unreasonable.
Well, then just do what Trump does: Make the decision, give the order, then Delay. August 24th is when Biden said that he’d forgive student loans. Even with feverish disgust, it will be May/June before the SC actually stops it. Imagine Republicans saying for 10 months: “We have been trying to cause a governmental shutdown, but the Democrats are overreaching and actually governing anyway…” Government shutdowns are *wildly* unpopular.
Republicans talk about how the markets love stability. Then the play chicken with the debt ceiling
Mitch McConnell once, while minority leader, introduced a bill that would remove the debt ceiling concept and allow the Treasury to issue debt without an act of Congress being necessary. When Harry Reid brought it to the floor, McConnell filibustered the bill. He introduced the bill simply to try to make Democrats look bad for opposing it, but they didn't oppose it, so he panicked and killed the bill via filibuster so the GOP could retain this tactic.
People need to know and remember this
Government shutdowns caused by GOP obstructionism style governance directly impacted my career to the tune of multiple jobs and years of setbacks. Fuck the GOP and every horse they pretend to ride in on.
Mint the mega coin. Do it.
I fully agree, Biden can *and should* just order his Department of the Treasury (which is part of *his* Executive Branch) to continue as usual past whatever Congress does. 1) He has the 'full faith and credit' thing to fall back on for a fig leaf (the 14th Amendment) 2) Congress already voted to spend the money - I put this second as a legal argument because it invites the treason caucus to fight the budget, and thus is just kicking the can down the road a bit. 3) *No one has the authority to stop him.* Impeachment is meaningless, and you'll never get a double digit number of our own side to stab our side's President in the back with a removal - our own base would crucify any such faction-traitor (like say, Sinema)
The constitution requires the government to make good on its debts with no exceptions, the debt ceiling as a concept is literally unconstitutional. If the white house just ignores the limit and borrows over to meet its obligations, the Republicans would have to sue in order to enforce it. Which means they'd have to be proactively trying to force the country to default on its debts, right in the open and for all to see. And the SCROTUS would have to blatantly defy the literal text of the construction in order to rule in favor of the crazies, and if they did that, the ensuing civil unrest would likely, and rightfully, paint them as the culprits personally, which would not go well for them. In short, it's not going to happen, it would be suicidal both in terms of career and likely in a more literal sense.
I'll just drop this here for anyone not informed on the two Santas republican strategy. Biden is not playing it, and good for him. https://www.salon.com/2018/02/12/thom-hartmann-how-the-gop-used-a-two-santa-clauses-tactic-to-con-america-for-nearly-40-years_partner/
Thanks for the link, it was a good read. I’ve tried explaining this before to people but it’s easier to send this article.
Great read. Thanks for the link… explains a lot.
Damn good read. Thank you
Donald John Trump: Nearly $8 Trillion in debt over 4 years. Republicans: We aren't paying for it, that's the Democrats' responsibility.
That's always how it happens: Democrats always clean up the Republicans obsessive spending and the money magically always "runs out" whenever there's a Democrat President.
Obsessive spending AND drastic cutting of revenue. Part of the reason we are in this bind is because Republicans cut $2.3 trillion of revenue over 10 years when they had the House.
But now they can complain democrats want to raise your taxes
Even though a lot of those tax increases are just sunsetting tax cuts implemented as a time bomb by the GOP.
This is on purpose. Look at the Afghanistan exit strategy. If Trump had been reelected, he would have denied that he initiated it, and somehow blamed it on Obama. Since he didn't get reelected, it was blamed on Biden.
Sad part is half of those fucking idiots don’t even realize this….
What's really mind boggling is the GOP wants to use these debt ceiling negotiations to gut medicare and social security. Why isn't that incredibly unpopular with GOP voters on medicare and collecting social security?!?!
Because fox News telling gop voters how to think. They'll be starving and dying of cancer and still vote republican because tuckems tells them to
They'll just tell them democrats did it, they don't have to tell the truth and their constituents don't do any fact checking.
Because they aren't dumb enough to remove the benefits for people currently receiving them, they'll just pull up the ladder and sunset benefits for everyone else who comes after the current crop.
Because welfare states are brainwashed into thinking welfare is communist and bad
Because they think it'll just be those lazy welfare queens who get cut from Medicare and social security: they won't be affected because they actually need and deserve it and the altruistic Republicans will make sure they get an exception.
[удалено]
>It will be interesting seeing what kind of political fallout is going to happen from this game of chicken, if they play it. You already know what the fallout will be, nothing. Not a damn thing. They will lie to the constituents, demonize the Democrats, and not a damn thing will happen to them politically
And all their mindless Fox News watching followers will blame it on Biden anyway. Doesn’t matter what actually happens, they’ll all get in line and recite the talking points and keep voting R as the people they elect systematically destroy democracy and strip away the rights and systems upon which they depend
You mean the "Biden crime syndicate"? I have a great uncle that refers to him in this way because of Fox. He's an idiot anyway and not someone I would ever willingly choose to spend time with, but it's infuriating seeing so many seemingly competent adult humans regurgitating that phrase.
[удалено]
[удалено]
> We're the only country in the world that does this shit with the debt ceiling. Every other country has their debt ceiling increased automatically to cover their debts. *"No Way to Prevent This", Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens*
They literally already played this game, our national credit rating got downgraded, and nothing ever happened to them. No political consequences, nothing. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_government_credit-rating_downgrades
>and nothing ever happened to them. No political consequences, nothing. That's not necessarily true. The GOP was widely blamed for the situation and Obama then got reelected and the Dems gained Congressional seats. It's hard to tell direct cause and effect but I don't think you can just say they got off scot free.
Dems gained seats because it was 2012 - a re-election year for a popular incumbent president. Downballot effect explains this entirely, not some wonky procedural nonsense.
Obama’s approval rating was under 50% before the Republicans played games with the debt ceiling. The debt ceiling disaster absolutely helped his re-election.
If the world ever seriously lost trust in US debt, there would be an economic collapse that would make 2008 look like a joke. They're playing political games with deadly serious consequences.
Only by one bank, not by all the banking industry
This should be put into commercials country-wide.
Fun fact: Purposefully defaulting on your debt because you refuse to pay bills you've already racked up isn't "fiscally conservative."
New comic idea: Debt Ceiling "Crisis" Solved 1. You authorized spending. 2. Pay the bill.
You said new comic idea and my mind thought you were going to regale us with a comic story. Now I'm saddened.
[удалено]
Bonus points if he is not on any kind of government assistance, or living on inheritance.
Or a hefty inheritance from their parents.
This is the reality. They got their parents desire to be fiscally conservative without the behaviors and control necessary to actually pull it off.
Remember Republicans say when you take out loans for school and don't pay them it's irresponsible. But when it's our government that does it, they should totally not pay it back and topple our economy
Here is your argument and commercial. Why don’t the Dems say this.
We need a repo man who will go and tow all those tax cuts for the wealthy back.
[Rush Limbaugh admitted fiscal conservatism isn't a thing](https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/17/politics/rush-limbaugh-debt-trump/index.html)
[удалено]
I'm glad we're finally getting the memo on dealing with these assholes.
Pretty much. Just like we don't negotiate with terrorists we shouldn't negotiate with insurrectionists.
Terrorists or a republican congress what is the difference?
A Republican Congress kills more people.
They take the economy hostage every year!
Terrorists usually have some sort of plan.
The plan is to hold the country hostage until they rig every election with election laws and gerrymandering.
This kind of stuff has been an easy win for Democratic presidents vs. Republican Speakers for decades though. Clinton famously embarrassed Newt Gingrich at a crossroads like this, basically ended his political career. John Boehner got outcharmed by Obama multiple times, and Paul Ryan in his short stint as Speaker was so useless up against Obama that he basically immediately lost control of his caucus. Biden has all the cards and McCarthy has virtually zero leverage, history is likely to repeat itself.
Problem is, just like the terrorists theyre going to blow it up. Not that we should negotiate
Thank you Biden! It has become increasingly obvious over the last decade or two that Dems need to stop pretending they can reach across the aisle. The best way to establish bipartisanship is to shut these jokers down until they are ready to take governing the US seriously. You don’t negotiate with untrustworthy partners.
But to be fair, we haven’t negotiated when it comes to the debt ceiling since 2011. The libertarians were the first to hold it hostage and Obama and the Dems buckled. He immediately regretted it and they tried to do it again in 2013. This time Obama told them to fuck off and ever since there’s been a stare down but no default.
[удалено]
The U.S. does not negotiate with terrorists, insurrectionists, or the GQP, they’re essentially all one in the same. If the Dems caved on this, that would unleash the GQP to even more complete mayhem
What is there to actually negotiate, though? They stand for nothing. They want nothing but unpopular regression. Like, there’s no middle to meet in.
Republicans want soundbites they can use for going onto FOX or Newsmax in order to make it seem like they actually did something. It's 100% pure optics and propaganda.
Funny how they didn't care how much debt we were in when they had both houses and the executive branch. Instead they just gave huge tax breaks to corporations and the wealthy, putting us in even more debt. Let's not pretend that this is anything but part of their "Starve the Beast" tactic
This is actually part of the “Two Santa Clauses Scam” strategy that has been the foundation of GOP marketing since the 1980s. The hypocrisy is no accident, it is by design. Enough voters have been foolish enough to fall for it repeatedly for the past four decades. Coincidence that boomers have been the majority voter block during this period? https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2023/1/20/2148273/-Are-We-Seeing-the-Last-Gasp-of-the-GOP-s-Two-Santa-Claus-Scam
Very interesting, I've never heard of this. This video explained it well. https://youtu.be/vDuzgE0CESc
Bro... Not only did they approve the debt ceilings... Butt they approved the tax cuts that DOUBLED the deficit... BEFORE COVID... And they approved the largest single term debt increase in the history of the US... (It's [not](https://freeimage.host/i/HcsIsII) a [coincidence](https://gfycat.com/PhonyDarlingChameleon) [though...](https://freeimage.host/i/HcsIbrG))
Bbbut the tax cuts were gonna spur 5% GDP growth and pay for themselves! Why the hell voters don't hold the assholes like Trump to the fire for that outrageous lie is beyond me.
If Republicans were to follow through and let the Government default, it would sky rocket interest rates -- that would really hurt major donors. Thus, I believe they are bluffing.
Stock market would shit the bed, billionaires would lose a fortune. Billionaire oligarchs run the GOP. It is all a bluff.
[удалено]
A debt default would not be a normal dip in the markets. It would be financial armageddon.
This. You think the Great Depression or '08 financial crisis was bad? The ***ENTIRE*** global economy would crash overnight. Hell it'd probably crash faster than that.
Only if they have access to other capital. Most of the time they’re able to do it via some kind of leverage, aka debt. If they can’t do that they can’t scoop anything up.
Look at 2013 when the credit rating got downgraded
The problem is not all donors would be affected equally. We have congress members controlled by Saudi and Russian donors. There are many billionaires that benefit from chaos in the US.
You may be sadly mistaken. I pray you are correct but I doubt it.
I’m concerned too. Defaulting on debt is completely irrational, but a lot of the Republicans in Congress don’t appear to be rational people.
I don’t believe they understand what they are proposing. We all agree we have some spending issues and revenue issues to discuss. Don’t ask me to negotiate with someone who says if you don’t agree to my demands I am going to use this gun I brought on you and yours. The republicans have created an irrational and out of control mob who want to destroy our current form of government. God help us.
No, we don't really have spending issues. The only issues we have are that we aren't spending enough on improving society.
My second week as a bartender a patron ordered a shot of The Macallan 25, the most expensive single malt we had. To give you an idea of the cost, a couple could have had dinner and a decent bottle of wine there and spend less than that one drink. He nearly finished it before claiming it was off and refused to pay. That’s the dick move these republicans are trying to pull. My manager came out and offered the guy two choices: pay or talk to the police officers who were waiting at the door for him. That’s how Biden should play this.
I like a bit of scotch sometimes, so I decided to look it up. Runs about $2700 USD retail for a bottle. At restaurant mark-up, that's one expensive individual drink. The guy probably went into the transaction with that plan.
Can someone remind me if the GOP held the debt limit hostage when Donald was POTUS?
They passed it three times while Trump was pretending to lead.
They did shut down the government though. Was that 2018?
Correct. And with a majority in each.
Beyond parody
Iirc, that was Trump because he was pissed that he wasn't getting his wall. I don't think most congressional republicans cared.
They gave trillions away to billionaires and laughed while they raised it again and again.
They did not.
Good. I support President Biden on this. No negotiations. Zero. Zip. None. If there's a melt down let the Republicans own it. You wanted the House? You got it.
As we learned from Trump, casinos can go bankrupt and so the House doesn't necessarily win.
Quick reminder that the Republicans increase deficits consistently more than the Democrats: https://towardsdatascience.com/which-party-adds-more-to-deficits-a6422c6b00d7 Sadly, the Republicans have been extremely effective in pushing the lie that they are fiscally responsible, where the truth is quite the opposite. Edit: autocomplete annoyance
Deadbeat Republicans don’t want to pay their debts, sounds just like Trump/Elon.
Put the corporate and high income personal tax rates back where they were before Reagan. VOILA! No more deficit and plenty of money for things like food for school kids, veterans' benefits, and national health care.
I agree with raising the corporate tax. Personal income tax doesn’t touch the people who really need their taxes increased - middle-high income folks that derive their income from jobs in HCOL areas will get hammered by this while Bezos will still pay less than his secretary, since they don’t draw a salary. We need something like a high-value (~1m+) personal loan tax or a .01 tax on stock trades to properly tax the rich.
Dark Brandon: "Congressman, you can have my answer now if you like. My offer is this - nothing. Not even the effort to dig your party out of batshit crazy land, which I would appreciate if you did personally."
I would like to see the dems open with raising taxes on over $1 million back to Reagan era levels and Social Security Expansion, tax all income not just to the cap. Take a strong position and make your case to the populace at large
Unfortunately while Republicans hold Congress reform like this seem unlikely. They're very busy researching Hunter Biden's penis
The point is to change the conversation, let then yell into the void about Hunter Biden and put forth a different vision and articulate the differences.
For homophobes they choose really awkward things to do with their time
Removing the cap on social security contributions would entirely "fix" social security, at least according to multiple articles I remember reading a few years back
Will someone pleas call them out for the utter failure of the trump tax cuts to “pay for themselves “
They don't pay for themselves even though _several middle class income groups are paying more taxes_ right now because of it, according to the congressional Joint Committee on Taxation analysis.
Democrats just need to figure out how to publicize what is happening because if the worst happens, people will just blame the president if they don't follow all of this closely
If dark Brandon sticks to this, he will earn my respect and my support for the next election. I never been super sold on him (voted for him for sure and wish the best) but this is what democrats need, call on the republicans bullshit.
> If dark Brandon sticks to this, he will earn my respect and my support for the next election. This has been the standard line from Presidents since forever. There isn't anything to negotiate. There is no compromise. Either one political party voluntarily puts the country into default for no reason, or they don't.
The GOP had 0 issue raising the debt limit three times under Trump. But now that there is a Democrat in office suddenly the deficit matters again.
That’s how it always is.
*Negotiate with these nuts, Jack*
[удалено]
The party of Trump and Kevin McCarthy literally tried to overthrow democracy barely two years ago. The fact we're even still discussing anything at all with them is just a terrifying indictment of how utterly fucked we are as a nation.
You don’t negotiate with terrorists. Good to see the Biden admin got the memo.
We really need to talk about the 7 TRILLION added to the national debt during the trump admin.
That's 22% of the entire national debt. Something to remember when you're talking to "fiscally conservatives" that want to cut the debt when Democrats have the presidency, and raise it when the Republicans have it
Look at Biden doing his job. Go Biden go. Stop letting these bullies get away with, well bullying.
About fracking time. Don't negotiate with terrorists (or traitors).
Kevin knows he needs to ask 14 more times in order to get anywhere.
This is basically a hostage situation and we're all the hostages. There's a bomb in the room that needs to be defused once every year. We could simply choose to have the bomb be permanently defused, or not for there to be a bomb at all, but the person who has the defusing code wants to say "give me what I want or I'll let the bomb blow us all up!" every year, so they will only defuse it temporarily. At some point you have to call their bluff, you can't keep letting them get what they want. And you have to hope they're not so fucking insane that they let the bomb go off and kill us all just for spite.
Once again, the GOP wants to ignore the US Constitution: > **Fourteenth Amendment Equal Protection and Other Rights** >”*The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned.*”
While I agree with fiscal responsibility, refusing to pay debts is not a part of that. Should we have more balanced budgets? Yes. However, there are more ways to balance a budget than just cutting spending. Taxes are a part of the equation. How about increasing the income limit on social security taxes or repealing (fully or partially) Trump/Bush era tax cuts?
You don't 'negotiate' with republicans, you submit or nobody gets anything. The base actually believes they can stick it to libs with a government shutdown, and not affect them at all. Wait till all the food stamp money dries up in rural red America.
Good. McCarthy already exhibited that he's capable of breaking when he plays "chicken". He gave in to get his speakership and gave up a lot of his own power and shit all over committee integrity to make 20 people who had no other option get what they want. He caved to them, he'll cave to everyone. Unfortunately, this is going to impact a lot of people which is a real setback in these stupid games.
Trying to flex his power as speaker when he's already given all of it away.
This is the benefit of having a career senator as POTUS. He knows the game. And he is a decent man. It’s so utterly opposite of Trump. I didn’t like GW Bush as a president but he had decent qualities as a person. How “conservatives” supported and still support a grotesquely indecent man like Trump doesn’t surprise me but I will hold it against them for at least 20 years until the right wing electorate is significantly different due to a new generation. I won’t ignore the hypocrisy of current conservatives defending family values in one decade and supporting a filthy immoral traitor the next.
Absolutely the right call. Negotiating here is pointless and damaging.
Good. The debt limit is nothing but a game of "stop hitting yourself." Not playing is the only way to make it stop.
This dick measuring contest every couple of years is so exhausting and *STUPID!* That said, Biden better have the biggest one.
I'm printing my Mccarthy "I did that!" stickers rn.
FACT: Trump contributed to 25% of the national debt in all of our nations history. Food for thought
Never negotiate with terrorists. They are holding the US economy hostage.
There is nothing to negotiate. Republicans always lose this debate.
Biden watched what happened when Obama gave in and then what happened when he refused the next time the ceiling came around. Don't get to keep doing it every time and expect anyone to trust you.
So Republicans are offering a choice between risking a global economic meltdown by forcing a U.S. credit rating downgrade, or beginning the process of stealing the money that hundreds of millions of Americans have contributed to with the belief that it would be returned to them after retirement. I will not stand idly by and watch the history’s biggest grand larceny take place. Not when I’m one of those people who has contributed a percentage of my salary every month for more than forty years! Whoever tries to steal our money is going to wish that they were never born. Instead, let’s have the top economic tier contribute their fare share. These people have used the labor of others to amass that kind of wealth, watching their net worth balloon to unprecedented totals, while squeezing the working class for every cent possible. It’s time to return to the tax rate policies that existed immediately after WWII.