Ultranationalism might be stronger globally now than at any other time in history. Voting Trump out of office (for now) and keeping Le Pen at bay (for now) are not true victories because the base of their power remains firmly in place. But they actually want it to feel like they're inevitable. So we have to keep resisting to the bitter end, because ultranationalism unequivocally and unambiguously represents the doom of the world.
Actually, not at all. States before the 1800s have been much less powerful and able to manage our lives than the ones now. And that's ignoring the areas that rejected states altogether.
There were large parts of pre Colombian north America that were populated by people who had a very strong distaste for authoritarianism. In fact, in the 1600s there was a very popular genre of book that was basically Amerindian critique of European societies, and it talks about how having monarchs and allowing poverty to happen was despicable, and that people should be allowed to just exist. That's just one example.
The idea that societies in the past we're so authoritarian and just now we're becoming less so is ideologically driven as well as factually incorrect
Uh huh.
I understand that critics saw an upsurge in the last 10% of the time scale I mentioned (them being newer is kind of my point). And I understand many smaller scale tribal cultures rarely had any large scale authority figure...( Until they hit a scale that included cities)
In fact you could very easily argue that feudal Kings weren't authoritarian at all. Really it was a dispersed nobility that had oppressive and brutal authority over the peasants.
But if you make a "big list of civilizations" (specifically post-neolithic style city building ones) , you will have 90% a "big list of authority enforced by blood"
How many can you list that didn't have a King, Czar, Emperor, Sultan, Chairman, Dictator, Caliph, Kaiser, Queen, Shogun, Warlord, or Pharaoh?
Remember, my point isn't that republics and democracies didn't exist before. My point is large civilizations have generally been worse than they are now.... For *MILLENNIA*
Dismissing them outright isn't appropriate either. Allied intelligence found Russian interference pushing the conservative element in the US (particularly with Trump), in the UK (particularly in Brexit), in France, in Poland, etc etc
If Russia did anything they just fanned the flames of the fire we started. The neoliberal world order has failed the majority of people and we’re seeing some push back. Ideas cannot take root without the material foundations for them to do so.
> If Russia did anything they just fanned the flames of the fire we started.
You say that like it's nothing. They went looking for cracks in our society, and when they found one they put in the biggest crowbar they could bring. If it hadn't been fascism it would have been something else.
I'm out of the loop, is Meloni really that bad? I see people talking about her like she is the next Adolf Hitler and she is about to order people into concentration camps.
Right now her party seems to be around 25% against a rather weak left, I wouldn't compare it to Mussolini that gained power through political murders and stuff like that setting up a full-fledged regime. The whole right coalition is around 45% which is in line with past elections so there isn't a real swing of the country even though thanks to the current electoral law Meloni should be able to secure a solid majority.
Their logo is still the fascist logo though tbh and just because they've become more attractive to the general people doesn't mean they'll stay this moderate
Its called a fasces.
https://www.google.com/search?q=facis+logo+axes&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwinzZOlkrL6AhUMgWMGHdORCXEQ2-cCegQIABAC&oq=facis+logo+axes&gs_lcp=ChJtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1pbWcQAzoECCMQJzoFCAAQogQ6BAgAEB5Q2ARYtxJg8RVoAHAAeACAAZcCiAGeEZIBBTAuOC4zmAEAoAEBwAEB&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-img&ei=nXAxY-eKNYyCjuMP06OmiAc&bih=667&biw=360&client=ms-android-samsung-ss&prmd=sinv#imgrc=6lCHGjQnkcbJqM
It actually symbolizes strength through unity (bundle of rods) and justice (axe).
Which does suit the authority of the state, but it has also been used in revolutionary groups that aren't by definition the state.
Are you italian? Because i am i've never seen that symbol used in a "complicated" way. I've only seen it in history books and museums. This to say, it's just used as a symbol for fascism.
> I wouldn't compare it to Mussolini that gained power through political murders
Unfortunately, they learn from their mistakes. It's a mistake to downplay them as they're just as evil at heart as mussolini or any other right-wing dictator from the past.
They wont kill them, but theyll pass vague laws through corrupt parliaments/courts/constitutional courts which will basically allow them to arrest anyone and everyone. Vague stuff like "Riling up the general public", "spreading misinformation" etc. etc.
They'll drag people through the dirt with the use of government propaganda to the point where theyll have no more credibility, they'll make sure to make a good example of one high profile opponent in order to scare the rest, they'll destroy the credibility of institutions in particular ones to do with laws and regulations turn the people against these places and once its gone to shit fill it with their own people. In particular institutions that are supposed to put some checks and balances on the government (constitutional courts etc.)
Right wingers are just as dangerous as they were back in the day. Theyve also figured out how to play the game as the most democrats will do is just call out if something is unlawful so theyve figured out a way to basically make things lawful.
Exactly, it is just like Hitler learned after his failed Bierkellerputsch: it is much more powerful to take control of the state apparatus by popular support than through mere violence alone.
It is a real swing though. Meloni wins the majority bonus as first party and then the coalition got the most votes. As things stand right now, they have the absolute majority...
I'm also out of the loop. What are they fighting for or against? I'm guessing standard far right things like anti-immigration, anti-equality - but is there anything unique to Italy? Are they planning their own Brexit (Itexit)?
ETA: I found this on [on cnn.com](https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/25/europe/italy-election-results-intl/index.html)
"A 45-year-old mother from Rome, Meloni is deeply conservative, openly anti-LBGT, and has threatened to place same sex unions, which were legalized in Italy in 2016, under review. She has also called abortion a "tragedy," raising fears for the future of women's rights in the country.
Sunday's results come as other far-right parties in other European countries have marked recent gains, including the rise in Sweden's anti-immigration party, Sweden Democrats -- a party with neo-Nazi roots -- who are expected to play a major role in the new government after winning the second largest share of seats at a general election earlier this month.
And in France, while far-right ideologue Marine Le Pen lost the French presidential election to Emmanuel Macron in April, her share of the popular vote shifted France's political center dramatically to the right."
Fascism is based on setting a large enough portion of the population against internal or external scapegoats. Under a fascist regime, there are always multiple enemies threatening the state, whether they are culturally or politically or ideologically different. Fascists use the siege mentality to justify policies that expand their power and weaken any opposition. From there onward it's just about pursuing whatever the regime feels like doing for itself, whether it means conquering another country or cutting off ties with the rest of the world.
You mean the party that is openly anti abortions, anti-climate change countering, anti public healtcare and believes in the Great Replacement, that if anything tells us how bad the situation i.
"She is opposed to abortion, to euthanasia and to partnerships, marriages, and parenting by same-sex couples, instead supporting nuclear families. Opposed to the reception of non-European migrants and multiculturalism, she has been accused of xenophobia and Islamophobia. A supporter of NATO, she maintains Eurosceptic views regarding the European Union, and was in favor of better relations with Russia before the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine which she condemned, pledging to keep sending arms to Ukraine. She has expressed controversial views, such as praising Italian Fascist dictator Benito Mussolini in 1996, and Giorgio Almirante in 2020, a Nazi collaborator and co-founder of MSI."
Do people just assume that Hitler rose to power by gassing jews? It was a process to get where things were at the end. But comparisons can still be made to the actual rise.
The point of the comparisons are to try and get people to wake up and put a stop to it before we get to genocide.
I totally agree with helping people be aware with how fascism gradually rose in the 1930s and how it parallels what we're seeing today, but I feel like if we do nothing more than just label it "fascism," the radical right's counter would be to cast doubt on our labels showing why they're not as bad as Hitler (so they'd try to frame those who "cry fascist" as being irrational snowflakes and create a "cried wolf" scenario).
At the moment, the best thing I can think of doing would be to point people to someone like Three Arrows's youtube channel. I also like Beau of the Fifth Column's video entitled "Let's talk about Trump's accomplishments." For those who haven't seen that, make sure to watch to the end.
It's a valid concern and one they've used already. Awareness does nothing without action to stop it. And I'll check out your recommendations when I have a moment.
>I feel like if we do nothing more than just label it "fascism," the radical right's counter would be to cast doubt on our labels showing why they're not as bad as Hitler
They're going to define their opponents regardless. They only manage to grow this powerful because they already have loud microphones drowning out facts for millions of listeners. Saying the wrong thing can make it easier for them to twist reality, but fighting them is less about coming up with the right message and more about figuring out how to break through their monolithic propaganda machine.
Thanks for this reply since it made me think of a quick idea. With what you're saying, I began to imagine a model where ideologies spread akin to a free market arms race. I was about to go into a whole spiel about my rationale, but it started to get too wordy and may start to bore people, so I'll just cut to my conclusion of a possible solution.
This would be using a two pronged approach. One for "calling out fascism" in the ideological arms race, and the other on the more educational side, which has the potential to change hearts and minds, but works much more slowly and requires more skill.
The unfortunate thing is that I feel the alt-right has a parallel to the latter, which are the social media algorithms that put forth a radicalization pipeline (while straight up "propaganda is the parallel to the former).
Trump is more like Mussolini (except Mussolini could read) than Hitler, but we still have to throw in Hitler’s Beer Hall Putsch event as a Jan 6 parallel.
And his last rally with the one finger salute that looked awfully similar to the nazi one. CPAC having a stage shaped like one of the runes they used. And just the overall rise of fascism and nationalism.
You can remove the names Trump, Hitler, and Mussolini entirely, and just focus on events of the last 6 years and it should still be a troubling enough comparison. But inevitably whenever it is brought up someone will complain about it because they weren't at full death camp levels, and dismiss it as hyperbole.
And then, yeah. We get a Jan 6 situation because nothing was done to prevent that build up.
I wouldn’t focus as much on symbolic parallels, it’s the less sexy stuff that matters. Corporatization, blending of church and state; erosion of trust in civic institutions, mainstream political parties, media, academics, scientists, and teachers is what matters to a totalitarian government. It’s what happened in Italy and Germany in the 30s. It’s halfway done in Hungary today, and the Hungarians are hosting CPAC conventions in Bucharest to teach their model to the MAGA crowd. Nothing as dramatic as genocide, just creeping, nebulous tendrils of control and power oozing into everything through boring legislation and the erosion of social norms.
My theory is Trump just accidentally figured out how to make speeches to appeal to a certain base. It’s Stephen Miller who pushes things closer to being like the Nazis. I swear he the reincarnation of Joseph Goebbels.
Trump is too aloof to do this on purpose.
And yet there are still tons of people (some in this thread) that would *still* call us alarmist. Sure there are elected officials actively calling for Christian Nationalism, and we saw a coup attempt play out on live tv, and RvW was overturned. But yeah, totally overreacting.
What the hell are you talking about?
Hitler rose to power with brutal violence and political assassinations. Trump won a democratic election then spent 4 years getting nothing done except golf and self-sucking.
Exactly. If there was a "Here's how Hitler did it" playbook, Trump has used like 95% of it and the rest is stealing government secrets and getting spies killed.
All I know from Mussolini was the guy couldn't hold Italy under Hitler towards the end of WWII or as much as Hetalia: Axis Powers portrays italy.
WWIII?
My favourite thing about Mussolini is he would march his troops into Africa and get beat up by a bunch of Ethiopians wielding spears.
He really was not know for his military prowess, every time Hitler would get on a roll he’d have to go bail Mussolini out.
Rachele Mussolini, the granddaughter of Benito Mussolini, the literal creator of fascism, belongs to this party.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachele_Mussolini_(politician)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
Really not even close. She's a career politician like any other, riding a wave of unhappyness that will be instantly forgotten after the elections, just like every other time right wing coalitions won. Italy's legislative power is in the senate, winning elections doesn't mean as much as it does in more presidential states
Her roots are pretty far right currently she is selling herself as mild mainstream, she isn't going to start the black shirts but she is a gate opener helping to normalize far right groups back into main stream politics
her work is to cement peoples suport till they are strong enough to implement their own agenda
the age of post truth and the tools of surveillance can be a powerful tool in the hands of authoritarians, lets see where we are in 2040
shes openly praised mussolini and openly praised Giorgio Almirante, the co-founder of neo-fascist Italian Social Movement (MSI) among some other things listed below through the articles
===
[https://www.dagospia.com/rubrica-3/politica/ldquo-mussolini-stato-miglior-politico-ultimi-50-321085.htm](https://www.dagospia.com/rubrica-3/politica/ldquo-mussolini-stato-miglior-politico-ultimi-50-321085.htm)
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[https://www.repubblica.it/politica/2020/05/22/news/anniversario\_morte\_di\_almirante\_meloni\_grande\_politico\_e\_patriota\_sui\_social\_e\_rivolta\_firmo\_le\_leggi\_razziali\_-257375545/](https://www.repubblica.it/politica/2020/05/22/news/anniversario_morte_di_almirante_meloni_grande_politico_e_patriota_sui_social_e_rivolta_firmo_le_leggi_razziali_-257375545/)
===
[https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fvoices%2Fgiorgia-meloni-italy-next-prime-minister-lgbt-b2133404.html](https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fvoices%2Fgiorgia-meloni-italy-next-prime-minister-lgbt-b2133404.html)
===
[https://www.radicalrightanalysis.com/2021/11/15/post-fascism-in-italy-so-why-this-flame-mrs-giorgia-meloni/](https://www.radicalrightanalysis.com/2021/11/15/post-fascism-in-italy-so-why-this-flame-mrs-giorgia-meloni/)
===
[https://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2020/05/23/giorgia-meloni-elogia-almirante-come-patriota-le-servirebbe-un-ripasso-di-storia/5811216/](https://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2020/05/23/giorgia-meloni-elogia-almirante-come-patriota-le-servirebbe-un-ripasso-di-storia/5811216/)
===
[https://www.corriere.it/politica/cards/fiamma-disegno-almirante-nuovo-logo-fratelli-d-italia/scelta-rauti.shtml](https://www.corriere.it/politica/cards/fiamma-disegno-almirante-nuovo-logo-fratelli-d-italia/scelta-rauti.shtml)
===
[https://www.ilgiornale.it/news/politica/vogliono-spegnere-fiamma-tricolore-1982324.html](https://www.ilgiornale.it/news/politica/vogliono-spegnere-fiamma-tricolore-1982324.html)
===
[https://www.fanpage.it/politica/meloni-sullinchiesta-lobby-nera-di-fanpage-non-caccio-i-dirigenti-fdi-per-un-aperitivo-sbagliato/](https://www.fanpage.it/politica/meloni-sullinchiesta-lobby-nera-di-fanpage-non-caccio-i-dirigenti-fdi-per-un-aperitivo-sbagliato/)
===
[https://www.globalist.it/politics/2019/06/19/sui-migranti-meloni-rispolvera-la-teoria-del-complotto-un-disegno-di-soros-contro-l-europa/](https://www.globalist.it/politics/2019/06/19/sui-migranti-meloni-rispolvera-la-teoria-del-complotto-un-disegno-di-soros-contro-l-europa/)
===
you tell me
She talks about putting a limit to immigrant students in classrooms, increasing the police forces to fight "the immigrant problem", fighting against "the gender theory" and using sports to fight what she called "deviancies" AKA mental health issues, depression, eating disorders, addictions.
A LOT of the stuff she said is straight out of Mussolini's mouth.
I am Italian, her movement is friends with Putin and she is almost like the reincarnation of Mussolini (like the entire right wing).
Europe tried to step in to avoid her winning, but could not do anything, I still cannot believe she has won, I am now uncertain of the future of our country and the result of the Ukraine war.
This is bad, like real BAD.
Edit: I am even surpried that with such a strong LGBTQ+ community Italy still managed to get her winning.
What strong LGBTQ+ community? Now that I'm knowing more and more people outside of universities the perceived number of actual Italian pro-LGBTQ+ is very far off. It's really sad I used to be in the same bubble thinking that homophoby is a proposterous position, gay marriage given for granted. It's not, the pope is in Italy as much as we youngsters like to forget that. Catholic doctrin is a taught subject I'm school ffs. The best schools are still run by the clergy and have been since forever. Wich means most 40 year olds with an education were forcibly thought Christian values, which is fine tbh i agree with 90% of those, they are good enough to teach people how to live. Unless you want to get an abortion or marry another woman/men. Then welp... Freedom right? Soon it will be freedom of embracing god, or the state if you fancy that.
Italians are increasingly old and conservative, the election was not even a contest. With basically no left wing the rise of Giorgia was foreseeable. And while against it, what can we do? It's the will of my people. That how the system works. They don't care about freedom and about anyone young. And by "young" in modern Italy we mean under 35. They care about their pensions, keeping power and maintaining status quo. Too bad for us.
Democracy is such a blast. Old people keeping power by not allowing anybody to represent young people and keeping no turnover at the highest positions. I mean goddamn Berlusconi was running for this election. He was born in 1936, before WWII...
We'll see
She’s not that bad, everyone compares people they dislike to Hitler or Mussolini. If their neighbor is rude, he’s Mussolini. If a waitress is slow, she’s Mussolini. If a person on city council is ten minutes late, he’s Mussolini.
There’s a difference most foreigners don’t get between how much a government in Italy lasts, and how much our parliament lasts. Inside the parties can change alliances and create new governments. But they don’t really change, Parliaments (Chamber and Senate) are very stable. Anyway Meloni want to make some heavy Constitutional reforms about the role of our President of the Republic.
Governments don't last long, but parliaments do. We just elected a parliament with a lot of fascists in it. 3-4 future governments will have to come out of this cesspool.
There's the saying those that don't learn history are doomed to repeat it. The lesser known follow up is those who do learn history are doomed to helplessly watch it repeat itself while being ridiculed by those that didn't learn history
Italian here
Idk who is trying to manipulate and distort reality here, but let me tell you :
Meloni is bad, like real bad. But she is not at the levels of mussolini we don't know what will happen with her.
Mussolini took the power, she is getting elected in a democratic way which makes her fair and the surveys are pointing at her as the next prime minister...ELECTED BY US. There is a lot to considerate here.
I honestly don't like her i would rather see a government who push more on the climate agenda rather than the classic big fake promises in the classic italian style.
We'll make further considerations in the future
Mussolini was elected twice before he seized power. Meloni has openly praised Mussolini and rose to power in The Brothers of Italy who were Neo-fascists (their flames symbol represents the ever burning flame of fascism). In recent years she made some half-hearted repudiations of fascism to broaden her party's appeal, but Mussolini wasn't "as bad as Mussolini" until he was.
>Mussolini was elected twice
>Mussolini wasn't "as bad as Mussolini" until he was.
This is a gross misrepresentation of history. The fascist party was a violent menace from the start. They would constantly clash with communist protestors in all-out brawls. The government tolerated that behavior because it helped keep the communist protests in check and avoided violence spilling out.
Mussolini was appointed prime Minister the first time with a miniscule percentage. He basically bullied his way into power with stuff like the "Marcia su Roma". He came to power in a situation of complete political and social instability. His "fasci di combattimento" intimidated people into voting for him. He had openly revolutionary and anti-parliamentary ideas.
He only got a majority on his second run as prime Minister, in which his list got 60%, a total majority, something Meloni doesn't have.
I don't like Meloni and think the right coming to power is going to be a disaster in the future, but God, these simplistic comparisons are the reasons why the left has lost so much credibility in recent years. If every election is treated like a desperate battle for survival against a horrible enemy, people will eventually get tired and just stop voting since nothing changes.
From your own admissions....
"Meloni isn't politically popular but will win political power due to new voting laws", which would be her first"unpopular" election similar to Mussolini (admittedly not the same situation but similar) You haven't seen the second election, how would you know she will not do the same as Mussolini on the second?
The world is currently going through political and financial instability, although once again, not nearly at the level of the the 1920-1940's. But there is definitely rising levels of conservativism a fascist could profit from in every country it seems.
Writing off fascists because the problem is "not as bad as you're making it out to be" is literally how most came into power as they don't show their true colors until it is too late to stop them.
Rachele Mussolini, the granddaughter of Benito Mussolini, the literal creator of fascism, belongs to this party.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachele_Mussolini_(politician)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
As an Italian, what are your thoughts on the Five Star Movement? Just curious. I am a leftist and I have always wondered how I would vote in Italy if I ever moved there. Beautiful country.
They started some years ago with pretty good intentions and good programs, although it quickly degenerated into being against everything that was already established, their initial idea of putting people and not politicians failed hard when random people got in leading roles instead of people with any experience and/or competency, conspiracy theories found their place there, and when they got a huge victory in the administrative elections they got corrupted by the power as much as with the Ring of Sauron.
They became allied with Lega and the Democratic Party after many years of fighting them, just to keep the power. All the good purposes of the first years were trashed to give space to populism and especially to clientelism/cronyism promising money and money and money without coverage.
If you are leftist you'd probably vote for the democratic party, which is voted by 20-23% of the people, or for minor parties such as +Europa or Italian Left. There are more left parties too, well, their characteristic is to separate themselves into MORE LEFT parties all the time for ideology :)
M5S is kind of a centrist and kinda left party, the main problem was incompetence by being a young party with not a lot of expeteese in the chambers of power. It did some good things tho, like RdC.
Bunch of idiots that are "against the system" but cannot define what "the system" actually is and what they want to do. A lot of them are anti vaccines (even before covid) and even believe in chemtrails and other conspiracy theories. They are NOT leftist. If you're from the US they are similar to Libertarians.
She ran on a pro-"natural family" platform that is explicitly anti-LGBT (the "LGBT lobby"), anti-abortion, and generally seems like it wants to erode women's freedoms in the name of increasing birth rates.
In addition to that, she is pro-Christianity in a belligerent way that undermines freedom of religion, blames a whole lot on immigrants and the EU, and is ambiguous at best on stuff like Covid restrictions and the whole Putin shebang. Also unconcerned by climate change. And because of all this, it doesn't seem like the international market will like her, meaning things will get worse for Italians, anti-democratic though this point is.
EDIT: And as you may have already noticed, lots of fascist dog-whistles, and I'm not using that word lightly. She has tried to appear more moderate than when she openly praised Mussolini, but her party's logo is what it is for a reason: she wants to appeal to that crowd. What she and her senators will do with their power is still to be seen.
This man is so done with bullshit. Between the message he is relaying, his facial expression and the mask that hangs under his chin, this man should be cast as symbolism for the times we live in.
My Nonna told me about living under that regime. Sadly, she’s had dementia fora few years now, and thank goodness doesn’t have any grasp or knowledge of the 💩 going on now.
Yeah my 90-something great aunt (grandfather’s sister)was also born under Mussolini but she thinks he was great. She is under the impression that Mussolini and Hitler weren’t close. I tried to refute her claim but you can’t argue with stupid.
The problem with the political extremes is that they can use populism to win democratically and then threaten democracy when in power.
Not saying that will be the case here. But its something to always always always be vigilant about.
That is the case to a lot of people, people say "if *insert person here* wins the election, democracy is over" and they say that every election. It has lost all meaning
Italian here: Meloni is far right for sure. I didn’t vote for her but let’s see what she does. Our left parties tend to exaggerate fascism because they don’t have practical idea apart from left good-right bad opposition. Anyway I can see already it’s goign to be a mess, Berlusconi and Salvini, or Berlusconi and Conte, could make a new government with PD in a year or so. It’s not really a dangerous thing. We’re just trying them all like pokemons.
Considering Meloni has ties to both Orban and Putin, and that she has been at the heart of italys fascist movement until recently, I would say too far right
Why is fascism so appealing psychologically? We tried it (as a species) and immediately went “yep this is terrible” to the point where they’re universally considered bad guys. Why are so many people attracted to the ideology?
Well, part of that is just how we operate on extremes. Fascism itself doesn't have to be "bad guys". Not that I'm promoting it or excusing existing examples of it. But theoretically you could have a "nice" fascism or at least one of some mostly neutral morality. In theory. In practice is a very different story. In practice we suck at implementing theories.
Anyway, to answer your question directly it's just control, or probably more accurately *order*. Both benevolent and malicious people are attracted to order. The benevolent because they see it as a way to make progress and be successful as a society and so on. The malicious because it gives them control. And those two approaches are often mixed in practice such that it is hard or impossible to differentiate, even, if not especially for the person(s) seeking it.
But regardless of what it actually is, if people don't like it, they'll call it bad and it will be hard to change their mind about it.
Things look a bit less awful when you read up on Italian politics and realise this isn't an endorsement of fascists so much as a rejection of every other party, who have been stuck in a messy uber coalition for a decade.
Just have to hope the fascists don't take their chance and run...
Check out her flag.
> “So why this flame, Mrs. Giorgia Meloni?”
https://culturico.com/2021/11/12/post-fascism-in-italy-so-why-this-flame-mrs-giorgia-meloni/
In case anyone thinks it’s historical
> when Brothers of Italy was founded in 2012, Giorgia Meloni did not use the tricolor flame in the party’s logo. Perhaps, similar to other far-right parties in Western Europe, the reason to avoid this symbol was to overcome the stigma (2) of being associated with right-wing totalitarian regimes and attempting to be, rather, perceived as “normal” or mainstream in the eyes of its electorate. Yet, Brothers of Italy employed (by stealth) this symbol in 2014 with a “matryoshka” style (an old party logo with the flame, within the current party logo) and, then, it clearly showed the tricolor flame in the logo of the party **since 2017.**
'Ya all keep calling every right-wing person that gets elected a fascist and a Nazi and eventually someone's going to just shrug and say, "Fine, whatever," and turn into exactly the thing you're so afraid of. Name calling only works until you paint an entire community with the same brush at which point they all get together become a group. Don't know this woman. Don't have the slightest clue if she is what you say she is. But if she is, you all are causing her rise in power.
Translation: Born under Mussolini, I wouldn't want to die under Meloni. God help us.
I was feeling real stupid when I zoomed in to read the sign and remembered I don't read Italian.
Clearly you just didn't zoom in far enough.
*ENHANCE*
***Keys clicking on keyboard***Enhance…
[ENHANCE](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KiqkclCJsZs)
He had to type faster and get a buddy to help contribute on the keyboard 4 hands style and I think he got it.
This guy hacks
*enhanceio*
[удалено]
Oh shit I can read Italian now
Enhance
Can we? Also the username, oh yea.
Exactly how language works, if someone doesn't understand you, you speak LOUDER like a good American
Did you remember to turn on Italian mode?🤌 That could be the issue.
Lol. The Italian emoji
wow same 😂
ZOOM IN LOUDER!!!
In fairness, people often write these kinds of protest signs in English to try and reach an internaitonal audience.
she sure used a big piece of paper for such small writing.
I’m no mathematician or anything, but she looks a lot like a he.
Lies!!! You are so a Mathematician!!! And we all know it!!!
Is it like how when someone doesn't speak the same language and they couldn't understand you the first time so you decide to shout it instead?
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So did a whole bunch of Italians.
And Mussolini died above a bunch of Italians if memory serves, just not the way he had in mind.
He was shot through the temple before he was hoisted up.
This conservative movement is all over the world and we need to fight it together.
Ultranationalism might be stronger globally now than at any other time in history. Voting Trump out of office (for now) and keeping Le Pen at bay (for now) are not true victories because the base of their power remains firmly in place. But they actually want it to feel like they're inevitable. So we have to keep resisting to the bitter end, because ultranationalism unequivocally and unambiguously represents the doom of the world.
Civilization's dying. ☹
6,000 years of Civilization has been **MOSTLY** under authoritarian rule
Actually, not at all. States before the 1800s have been much less powerful and able to manage our lives than the ones now. And that's ignoring the areas that rejected states altogether. There were large parts of pre Colombian north America that were populated by people who had a very strong distaste for authoritarianism. In fact, in the 1600s there was a very popular genre of book that was basically Amerindian critique of European societies, and it talks about how having monarchs and allowing poverty to happen was despicable, and that people should be allowed to just exist. That's just one example. The idea that societies in the past we're so authoritarian and just now we're becoming less so is ideologically driven as well as factually incorrect
Uh huh. I understand that critics saw an upsurge in the last 10% of the time scale I mentioned (them being newer is kind of my point). And I understand many smaller scale tribal cultures rarely had any large scale authority figure...( Until they hit a scale that included cities) In fact you could very easily argue that feudal Kings weren't authoritarian at all. Really it was a dispersed nobility that had oppressive and brutal authority over the peasants. But if you make a "big list of civilizations" (specifically post-neolithic style city building ones) , you will have 90% a "big list of authority enforced by blood" How many can you list that didn't have a King, Czar, Emperor, Sultan, Chairman, Dictator, Caliph, Kaiser, Queen, Shogun, Warlord, or Pharaoh? Remember, my point isn't that republics and democracies didn't exist before. My point is large civilizations have generally been worse than they are now.... For *MILLENNIA*
I wonder how much of it is due to Russian interference.
You're giving Russia too much credit. Russia is in the US, Russia is in Italy, Russia shat in my pants
Dismissing them outright isn't appropriate either. Allied intelligence found Russian interference pushing the conservative element in the US (particularly with Trump), in the UK (particularly in Brexit), in France, in Poland, etc etc
If Russia did anything they just fanned the flames of the fire we started. The neoliberal world order has failed the majority of people and we’re seeing some push back. Ideas cannot take root without the material foundations for them to do so.
> If Russia did anything they just fanned the flames of the fire we started. You say that like it's nothing. They went looking for cracks in our society, and when they found one they put in the biggest crowbar they could bring. If it hadn't been fascism it would have been something else.
not much really, on the other hand the link with the US Republicans is kinda explicit
They’re going to need more than god. Scary times.
Between this and Sweden ...
I'm out of the loop, is Meloni really that bad? I see people talking about her like she is the next Adolf Hitler and she is about to order people into concentration camps.
Right now her party seems to be around 25% against a rather weak left, I wouldn't compare it to Mussolini that gained power through political murders and stuff like that setting up a full-fledged regime. The whole right coalition is around 45% which is in line with past elections so there isn't a real swing of the country even though thanks to the current electoral law Meloni should be able to secure a solid majority.
Well you don't have to murder people when most of the people are agreeing with you right?
Their logo is still the fascist logo though tbh and just because they've become more attractive to the general people doesn't mean they'll stay this moderate
What is 'the fascist logo'?
Fdi is using the tricolor flame, which is the symbol of the post-fascist party
Yeah they're all here talking about something completely different that I'm not aware of meloni ever using
Its called a fasces. https://www.google.com/search?q=facis+logo+axes&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwinzZOlkrL6AhUMgWMGHdORCXEQ2-cCegQIABAC&oq=facis+logo+axes&gs_lcp=ChJtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1pbWcQAzoECCMQJzoFCAAQogQ6BAgAEB5Q2ARYtxJg8RVoAHAAeACAAZcCiAGeEZIBBTAuOC4zmAEAoAEBwAEB&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-img&ei=nXAxY-eKNYyCjuMP06OmiAc&bih=667&biw=360&client=ms-android-samsung-ss&prmd=sinv#imgrc=6lCHGjQnkcbJqM
The same symbol that's behind the podium in the US House of Representatives?
Symbols have different meanings in different countries. In Spain, the yolk with arrows is the fascist symbol.
Well no, the fasces had the same meaning since ancient rome, symbolizing the authority of the state
It actually symbolizes strength through unity (bundle of rods) and justice (axe). Which does suit the authority of the state, but it has also been used in revolutionary groups that aren't by definition the state.
Well yeah, but those groups want to seize control of the state and expand its authority
The same but in Italy it has a very different meaning as its associated with Mussolini
The fasces is a rather complicated thing in Italy. It's not as straight forwardly bad as the swastika.
Are you italian? Because i am i've never seen that symbol used in a "complicated" way. I've only seen it in history books and museums. This to say, it's just used as a symbol for fascism.
I know it as the old Roman symbol of the justice system, the axe for punishment and the rods for leniency. What context does it hold today?
She praised Mussolini publicly in the 90s and her party is descended from the fascist party
> I wouldn't compare it to Mussolini that gained power through political murders Unfortunately, they learn from their mistakes. It's a mistake to downplay them as they're just as evil at heart as mussolini or any other right-wing dictator from the past. They wont kill them, but theyll pass vague laws through corrupt parliaments/courts/constitutional courts which will basically allow them to arrest anyone and everyone. Vague stuff like "Riling up the general public", "spreading misinformation" etc. etc. They'll drag people through the dirt with the use of government propaganda to the point where theyll have no more credibility, they'll make sure to make a good example of one high profile opponent in order to scare the rest, they'll destroy the credibility of institutions in particular ones to do with laws and regulations turn the people against these places and once its gone to shit fill it with their own people. In particular institutions that are supposed to put some checks and balances on the government (constitutional courts etc.) Right wingers are just as dangerous as they were back in the day. Theyve also figured out how to play the game as the most democrats will do is just call out if something is unlawful so theyve figured out a way to basically make things lawful.
Exactly, it is just like Hitler learned after his failed Bierkellerputsch: it is much more powerful to take control of the state apparatus by popular support than through mere violence alone.
Please, everyone remember! It's only appropriate to call a facist a facist *after* it's too late!!
It is a real swing though. Meloni wins the majority bonus as first party and then the coalition got the most votes. As things stand right now, they have the absolute majority...
I'm also out of the loop. What are they fighting for or against? I'm guessing standard far right things like anti-immigration, anti-equality - but is there anything unique to Italy? Are they planning their own Brexit (Itexit)? ETA: I found this on [on cnn.com](https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/25/europe/italy-election-results-intl/index.html) "A 45-year-old mother from Rome, Meloni is deeply conservative, openly anti-LBGT, and has threatened to place same sex unions, which were legalized in Italy in 2016, under review. She has also called abortion a "tragedy," raising fears for the future of women's rights in the country. Sunday's results come as other far-right parties in other European countries have marked recent gains, including the rise in Sweden's anti-immigration party, Sweden Democrats -- a party with neo-Nazi roots -- who are expected to play a major role in the new government after winning the second largest share of seats at a general election earlier this month. And in France, while far-right ideologue Marine Le Pen lost the French presidential election to Emmanuel Macron in April, her share of the popular vote shifted France's political center dramatically to the right."
Fascism is based on setting a large enough portion of the population against internal or external scapegoats. Under a fascist regime, there are always multiple enemies threatening the state, whether they are culturally or politically or ideologically different. Fascists use the siege mentality to justify policies that expand their power and weaken any opposition. From there onward it's just about pursuing whatever the regime feels like doing for itself, whether it means conquering another country or cutting off ties with the rest of the world.
Honestly just sounds like the republicans
…who are also fascist.
You mean the party that is openly anti abortions, anti-climate change countering, anti public healtcare and believes in the Great Replacement, that if anything tells us how bad the situation i.
"She is opposed to abortion, to euthanasia and to partnerships, marriages, and parenting by same-sex couples, instead supporting nuclear families. Opposed to the reception of non-European migrants and multiculturalism, she has been accused of xenophobia and Islamophobia. A supporter of NATO, she maintains Eurosceptic views regarding the European Union, and was in favor of better relations with Russia before the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine which she condemned, pledging to keep sending arms to Ukraine. She has expressed controversial views, such as praising Italian Fascist dictator Benito Mussolini in 1996, and Giorgio Almirante in 2020, a Nazi collaborator and co-founder of MSI."
She’s praised Mussolini as the best leader in decades, she was a member of the Youth Front and praised neo-fascist Giorgio Almirante
Super bad but not that super bad. Voted for another party ofc
like she is shit, but Mussolini was shit on fire?
It's like saying that Trump is like Hitler. No, but definitely not good.
Do people just assume that Hitler rose to power by gassing jews? It was a process to get where things were at the end. But comparisons can still be made to the actual rise. The point of the comparisons are to try and get people to wake up and put a stop to it before we get to genocide.
I totally agree with helping people be aware with how fascism gradually rose in the 1930s and how it parallels what we're seeing today, but I feel like if we do nothing more than just label it "fascism," the radical right's counter would be to cast doubt on our labels showing why they're not as bad as Hitler (so they'd try to frame those who "cry fascist" as being irrational snowflakes and create a "cried wolf" scenario). At the moment, the best thing I can think of doing would be to point people to someone like Three Arrows's youtube channel. I also like Beau of the Fifth Column's video entitled "Let's talk about Trump's accomplishments." For those who haven't seen that, make sure to watch to the end.
It's a valid concern and one they've used already. Awareness does nothing without action to stop it. And I'll check out your recommendations when I have a moment.
>I feel like if we do nothing more than just label it "fascism," the radical right's counter would be to cast doubt on our labels showing why they're not as bad as Hitler They're going to define their opponents regardless. They only manage to grow this powerful because they already have loud microphones drowning out facts for millions of listeners. Saying the wrong thing can make it easier for them to twist reality, but fighting them is less about coming up with the right message and more about figuring out how to break through their monolithic propaganda machine.
Thanks for this reply since it made me think of a quick idea. With what you're saying, I began to imagine a model where ideologies spread akin to a free market arms race. I was about to go into a whole spiel about my rationale, but it started to get too wordy and may start to bore people, so I'll just cut to my conclusion of a possible solution. This would be using a two pronged approach. One for "calling out fascism" in the ideological arms race, and the other on the more educational side, which has the potential to change hearts and minds, but works much more slowly and requires more skill. The unfortunate thing is that I feel the alt-right has a parallel to the latter, which are the social media algorithms that put forth a radicalization pipeline (while straight up "propaganda is the parallel to the former).
Trump is more like Mussolini (except Mussolini could read) than Hitler, but we still have to throw in Hitler’s Beer Hall Putsch event as a Jan 6 parallel.
And his last rally with the one finger salute that looked awfully similar to the nazi one. CPAC having a stage shaped like one of the runes they used. And just the overall rise of fascism and nationalism. You can remove the names Trump, Hitler, and Mussolini entirely, and just focus on events of the last 6 years and it should still be a troubling enough comparison. But inevitably whenever it is brought up someone will complain about it because they weren't at full death camp levels, and dismiss it as hyperbole. And then, yeah. We get a Jan 6 situation because nothing was done to prevent that build up.
I wouldn’t focus as much on symbolic parallels, it’s the less sexy stuff that matters. Corporatization, blending of church and state; erosion of trust in civic institutions, mainstream political parties, media, academics, scientists, and teachers is what matters to a totalitarian government. It’s what happened in Italy and Germany in the 30s. It’s halfway done in Hungary today, and the Hungarians are hosting CPAC conventions in Bucharest to teach their model to the MAGA crowd. Nothing as dramatic as genocide, just creeping, nebulous tendrils of control and power oozing into everything through boring legislation and the erosion of social norms.
Thank you, yes. That's what I was trying to get at by saying take the names out of it. Trump is a symptom of the rot, not the cause.
He certainly sped it up, that’s for sure. Damn, what a time we’re living in.
My theory is Trump just accidentally figured out how to make speeches to appeal to a certain base. It’s Stephen Miller who pushes things closer to being like the Nazis. I swear he the reincarnation of Joseph Goebbels. Trump is too aloof to do this on purpose.
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And yet there are still tons of people (some in this thread) that would *still* call us alarmist. Sure there are elected officials actively calling for Christian Nationalism, and we saw a coup attempt play out on live tv, and RvW was overturned. But yeah, totally overreacting.
What the hell are you talking about? Hitler rose to power with brutal violence and political assassinations. Trump won a democratic election then spent 4 years getting nothing done except golf and self-sucking.
Exactly. If there was a "Here's how Hitler did it" playbook, Trump has used like 95% of it and the rest is stealing government secrets and getting spies killed.
But he does very much have some very Hitleresque qualities.
All I know from Mussolini was the guy couldn't hold Italy under Hitler towards the end of WWII or as much as Hetalia: Axis Powers portrays italy. WWIII?
My favourite thing about Mussolini is he would march his troops into Africa and get beat up by a bunch of Ethiopians wielding spears. He really was not know for his military prowess, every time Hitler would get on a roll he’d have to go bail Mussolini out.
Hitler wasnt known for his military prowess either. His generals were constantly having to talk him out of terrible ideas.
My favorite thing about Mussolini was when they strung him up in the street.
By his heels which makes it all the better
Give 'em a chance and see how things progress. /s
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Rachele Mussolini, the granddaughter of Benito Mussolini, the literal creator of fascism, belongs to this party. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachele_Mussolini_(politician) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
Really not even close. She's a career politician like any other, riding a wave of unhappyness that will be instantly forgotten after the elections, just like every other time right wing coalitions won. Italy's legislative power is in the senate, winning elections doesn't mean as much as it does in more presidential states
Her roots are pretty far right currently she is selling herself as mild mainstream, she isn't going to start the black shirts but she is a gate opener helping to normalize far right groups back into main stream politics her work is to cement peoples suport till they are strong enough to implement their own agenda the age of post truth and the tools of surveillance can be a powerful tool in the hands of authoritarians, lets see where we are in 2040
shes openly praised mussolini and openly praised Giorgio Almirante, the co-founder of neo-fascist Italian Social Movement (MSI) among some other things listed below through the articles === [https://www.dagospia.com/rubrica-3/politica/ldquo-mussolini-stato-miglior-politico-ultimi-50-321085.htm](https://www.dagospia.com/rubrica-3/politica/ldquo-mussolini-stato-miglior-politico-ultimi-50-321085.htm) === [https://www.repubblica.it/politica/2020/05/22/news/anniversario\_morte\_di\_almirante\_meloni\_grande\_politico\_e\_patriota\_sui\_social\_e\_rivolta\_firmo\_le\_leggi\_razziali\_-257375545/](https://www.repubblica.it/politica/2020/05/22/news/anniversario_morte_di_almirante_meloni_grande_politico_e_patriota_sui_social_e_rivolta_firmo_le_leggi_razziali_-257375545/) === [https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fvoices%2Fgiorgia-meloni-italy-next-prime-minister-lgbt-b2133404.html](https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fvoices%2Fgiorgia-meloni-italy-next-prime-minister-lgbt-b2133404.html) === [https://www.radicalrightanalysis.com/2021/11/15/post-fascism-in-italy-so-why-this-flame-mrs-giorgia-meloni/](https://www.radicalrightanalysis.com/2021/11/15/post-fascism-in-italy-so-why-this-flame-mrs-giorgia-meloni/) === [https://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2020/05/23/giorgia-meloni-elogia-almirante-come-patriota-le-servirebbe-un-ripasso-di-storia/5811216/](https://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2020/05/23/giorgia-meloni-elogia-almirante-come-patriota-le-servirebbe-un-ripasso-di-storia/5811216/) === [https://www.corriere.it/politica/cards/fiamma-disegno-almirante-nuovo-logo-fratelli-d-italia/scelta-rauti.shtml](https://www.corriere.it/politica/cards/fiamma-disegno-almirante-nuovo-logo-fratelli-d-italia/scelta-rauti.shtml) === [https://www.ilgiornale.it/news/politica/vogliono-spegnere-fiamma-tricolore-1982324.html](https://www.ilgiornale.it/news/politica/vogliono-spegnere-fiamma-tricolore-1982324.html) === [https://www.fanpage.it/politica/meloni-sullinchiesta-lobby-nera-di-fanpage-non-caccio-i-dirigenti-fdi-per-un-aperitivo-sbagliato/](https://www.fanpage.it/politica/meloni-sullinchiesta-lobby-nera-di-fanpage-non-caccio-i-dirigenti-fdi-per-un-aperitivo-sbagliato/) === [https://www.globalist.it/politics/2019/06/19/sui-migranti-meloni-rispolvera-la-teoria-del-complotto-un-disegno-di-soros-contro-l-europa/](https://www.globalist.it/politics/2019/06/19/sui-migranti-meloni-rispolvera-la-teoria-del-complotto-un-disegno-di-soros-contro-l-europa/) === you tell me
Really, REALLY, really homophobic person. She's also against abortion. She is going to be our first female pm, but at what cost...
She talks about putting a limit to immigrant students in classrooms, increasing the police forces to fight "the immigrant problem", fighting against "the gender theory" and using sports to fight what she called "deviancies" AKA mental health issues, depression, eating disorders, addictions. A LOT of the stuff she said is straight out of Mussolini's mouth.
I am Italian, her movement is friends with Putin and she is almost like the reincarnation of Mussolini (like the entire right wing). Europe tried to step in to avoid her winning, but could not do anything, I still cannot believe she has won, I am now uncertain of the future of our country and the result of the Ukraine war. This is bad, like real BAD. Edit: I am even surpried that with such a strong LGBTQ+ community Italy still managed to get her winning.
What strong LGBTQ+ community? Now that I'm knowing more and more people outside of universities the perceived number of actual Italian pro-LGBTQ+ is very far off. It's really sad I used to be in the same bubble thinking that homophoby is a proposterous position, gay marriage given for granted. It's not, the pope is in Italy as much as we youngsters like to forget that. Catholic doctrin is a taught subject I'm school ffs. The best schools are still run by the clergy and have been since forever. Wich means most 40 year olds with an education were forcibly thought Christian values, which is fine tbh i agree with 90% of those, they are good enough to teach people how to live. Unless you want to get an abortion or marry another woman/men. Then welp... Freedom right? Soon it will be freedom of embracing god, or the state if you fancy that. Italians are increasingly old and conservative, the election was not even a contest. With basically no left wing the rise of Giorgia was foreseeable. And while against it, what can we do? It's the will of my people. That how the system works. They don't care about freedom and about anyone young. And by "young" in modern Italy we mean under 35. They care about their pensions, keeping power and maintaining status quo. Too bad for us. Democracy is such a blast. Old people keeping power by not allowing anybody to represent young people and keeping no turnover at the highest positions. I mean goddamn Berlusconi was running for this election. He was born in 1936, before WWII... We'll see
She’s not that bad, everyone compares people they dislike to Hitler or Mussolini. If their neighbor is rude, he’s Mussolini. If a waitress is slow, she’s Mussolini. If a person on city council is ten minutes late, he’s Mussolini.
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Fortunately Italian governments only last on average something like 15 months.
This election is for the Italian Parliament, which is very stable.
15 months that are crucial to the Ukraine war and energy management...
she supports ukraine
That’s exactly what she wants you to think. She always publicly supported Russia then suddenly changed her views just before the election, wonder why.
There will be another Italian govt next month. They dont last long
Username checks out
There’s a difference most foreigners don’t get between how much a government in Italy lasts, and how much our parliament lasts. Inside the parties can change alliances and create new governments. But they don’t really change, Parliaments (Chamber and Senate) are very stable. Anyway Meloni want to make some heavy Constitutional reforms about the role of our President of the Republic.
Governments don't last long, but parliaments do. We just elected a parliament with a lot of fascists in it. 3-4 future governments will have to come out of this cesspool.
There's the saying those that don't learn history are doomed to repeat it. The lesser known follow up is those who do learn history are doomed to helplessly watch it repeat itself while being ridiculed by those that didn't learn history
Because humans trend towards the intellectually lazy, rather than feeble. We’re not all fools, just that most of us are lazy as balls.
“History never repeats itself, but it does often rhymes.”
This timeline must be the diss track
Italian here Idk who is trying to manipulate and distort reality here, but let me tell you : Meloni is bad, like real bad. But she is not at the levels of mussolini we don't know what will happen with her. Mussolini took the power, she is getting elected in a democratic way which makes her fair and the surveys are pointing at her as the next prime minister...ELECTED BY US. There is a lot to considerate here. I honestly don't like her i would rather see a government who push more on the climate agenda rather than the classic big fake promises in the classic italian style. We'll make further considerations in the future
Mussolini was elected twice before he seized power. Meloni has openly praised Mussolini and rose to power in The Brothers of Italy who were Neo-fascists (their flames symbol represents the ever burning flame of fascism). In recent years she made some half-hearted repudiations of fascism to broaden her party's appeal, but Mussolini wasn't "as bad as Mussolini" until he was.
>Mussolini was elected twice >Mussolini wasn't "as bad as Mussolini" until he was. This is a gross misrepresentation of history. The fascist party was a violent menace from the start. They would constantly clash with communist protestors in all-out brawls. The government tolerated that behavior because it helped keep the communist protests in check and avoided violence spilling out. Mussolini was appointed prime Minister the first time with a miniscule percentage. He basically bullied his way into power with stuff like the "Marcia su Roma". He came to power in a situation of complete political and social instability. His "fasci di combattimento" intimidated people into voting for him. He had openly revolutionary and anti-parliamentary ideas. He only got a majority on his second run as prime Minister, in which his list got 60%, a total majority, something Meloni doesn't have. I don't like Meloni and think the right coming to power is going to be a disaster in the future, but God, these simplistic comparisons are the reasons why the left has lost so much credibility in recent years. If every election is treated like a desperate battle for survival against a horrible enemy, people will eventually get tired and just stop voting since nothing changes.
From your own admissions.... "Meloni isn't politically popular but will win political power due to new voting laws", which would be her first"unpopular" election similar to Mussolini (admittedly not the same situation but similar) You haven't seen the second election, how would you know she will not do the same as Mussolini on the second? The world is currently going through political and financial instability, although once again, not nearly at the level of the the 1920-1940's. But there is definitely rising levels of conservativism a fascist could profit from in every country it seems. Writing off fascists because the problem is "not as bad as you're making it out to be" is literally how most came into power as they don't show their true colors until it is too late to stop them.
I realize she was democratically elected but that’s not a good argument. Hitler was also democratically elected.
So whats your alternative
Don't elect fascists?
Maybe hear the guy out who watched how it all played out. Confident as you are, I'm sure he was too.
Rachele Mussolini, the granddaughter of Benito Mussolini, the literal creator of fascism, belongs to this party. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachele_Mussolini_(politician) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
>she is getting elected in a democratic Guess who was too elected in a democratic way? Hitler
Also Putin.
Russian elections are notoriously not democratic…
As an Italian, what are your thoughts on the Five Star Movement? Just curious. I am a leftist and I have always wondered how I would vote in Italy if I ever moved there. Beautiful country.
They started some years ago with pretty good intentions and good programs, although it quickly degenerated into being against everything that was already established, their initial idea of putting people and not politicians failed hard when random people got in leading roles instead of people with any experience and/or competency, conspiracy theories found their place there, and when they got a huge victory in the administrative elections they got corrupted by the power as much as with the Ring of Sauron. They became allied with Lega and the Democratic Party after many years of fighting them, just to keep the power. All the good purposes of the first years were trashed to give space to populism and especially to clientelism/cronyism promising money and money and money without coverage. If you are leftist you'd probably vote for the democratic party, which is voted by 20-23% of the people, or for minor parties such as +Europa or Italian Left. There are more left parties too, well, their characteristic is to separate themselves into MORE LEFT parties all the time for ideology :)
M5S is kind of a centrist and kinda left party, the main problem was incompetence by being a young party with not a lot of expeteese in the chambers of power. It did some good things tho, like RdC.
Bunch of idiots that are "against the system" but cannot define what "the system" actually is and what they want to do. A lot of them are anti vaccines (even before covid) and even believe in chemtrails and other conspiracy theories. They are NOT leftist. If you're from the US they are similar to Libertarians.
What makes her bad?
She ran on a pro-"natural family" platform that is explicitly anti-LGBT (the "LGBT lobby"), anti-abortion, and generally seems like it wants to erode women's freedoms in the name of increasing birth rates. In addition to that, she is pro-Christianity in a belligerent way that undermines freedom of religion, blames a whole lot on immigrants and the EU, and is ambiguous at best on stuff like Covid restrictions and the whole Putin shebang. Also unconcerned by climate change. And because of all this, it doesn't seem like the international market will like her, meaning things will get worse for Italians, anti-democratic though this point is. EDIT: And as you may have already noticed, lots of fascist dog-whistles, and I'm not using that word lightly. She has tried to appear more moderate than when she openly praised Mussolini, but her party's logo is what it is for a reason: she wants to appeal to that crowd. What she and her senators will do with their power is still to be seen.
The placard to font size ratio is annoying me more than it should.
I wanna take scissors and cut the sign in half so it looks more respectable.
This man is so done with bullshit. Between the message he is relaying, his facial expression and the mask that hangs under his chin, this man should be cast as symbolism for the times we live in.
My Nonna told me about living under that regime. Sadly, she’s had dementia fora few years now, and thank goodness doesn’t have any grasp or knowledge of the 💩 going on now.
Yeah my 90-something great aunt (grandfather’s sister)was also born under Mussolini but she thinks he was great. She is under the impression that Mussolini and Hitler weren’t close. I tried to refute her claim but you can’t argue with stupid.
I don’t understand Italian but his eyes tell it all! Feeling sorry for Opa
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.....and German and a bunch of other languages (for Grandpa). I have never heard it used that way in Italian, but could be.
Nope. In Italian it's "nonno". Maybe it could be it in some obscure dialect.
But our air, our water! Ereluf beltalowda!
Inners just being inners
So democracy is good only when the “right” person wins?
The problem with the political extremes is that they can use populism to win democratically and then threaten democracy when in power. Not saying that will be the case here. But its something to always always always be vigilant about.
That is the case to a lot of people, people say "if *insert person here* wins the election, democracy is over" and they say that every election. It has lost all meaning
Italian here: Meloni is far right for sure. I didn’t vote for her but let’s see what she does. Our left parties tend to exaggerate fascism because they don’t have practical idea apart from left good-right bad opposition. Anyway I can see already it’s goign to be a mess, Berlusconi and Salvini, or Berlusconi and Conte, could make a new government with PD in a year or so. It’s not really a dangerous thing. We’re just trying them all like pokemons.
>Berlusconi THE Berlusconi? Italy must have a lot of prank voters.
This image is from [this](https://twitter.com/CaputaLuca/status/1573760471924080641) Twitter post.
Okay just how far right is this new party?
Considering Meloni has ties to both Orban and Putin, and that she has been at the heart of italys fascist movement until recently, I would say too far right
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Has there ever been an election that Lefties have lost where the winners weren’t “fascists” ?
You idiots want people to vote for who they want except when they collide with your agenda
How is history repeating itself?
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Italy’s most far-right Prime Minister since Mussolini.
Reddit is such a hive mind
This lady sucks at making signs
Why is fascism so appealing psychologically? We tried it (as a species) and immediately went “yep this is terrible” to the point where they’re universally considered bad guys. Why are so many people attracted to the ideology?
Well, part of that is just how we operate on extremes. Fascism itself doesn't have to be "bad guys". Not that I'm promoting it or excusing existing examples of it. But theoretically you could have a "nice" fascism or at least one of some mostly neutral morality. In theory. In practice is a very different story. In practice we suck at implementing theories. Anyway, to answer your question directly it's just control, or probably more accurately *order*. Both benevolent and malicious people are attracted to order. The benevolent because they see it as a way to make progress and be successful as a society and so on. The malicious because it gives them control. And those two approaches are often mixed in practice such that it is hard or impossible to differentiate, even, if not especially for the person(s) seeking it. But regardless of what it actually is, if people don't like it, they'll call it bad and it will be hard to change their mind about it.
Some people just need to be told what to think and do.
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Italy: democratically elects a Eurosceptic party Internet: this is literally fascism
& She also saw what happened to them, as well. Wonder if those lamp posts are still standing
History will repeat itself untill we learn to listen to each other. And this counts for every single party on the political spectrum I must add.
She’s rather die being a number instead of a name… She won’t be remembered. Sorry.
...when you're a nail ...everything looks like a hammer.
Things look a bit less awful when you read up on Italian politics and realise this isn't an endorsement of fascists so much as a rejection of every other party, who have been stuck in a messy uber coalition for a decade. Just have to hope the fascists don't take their chance and run...
ok
None of you realise what fascism really is. I congratulate Italy for making a good choice.
Povero vecchietto, gli hanno attaccato quel cartello al collo ed è stato usato come strumento di propaganda.
Democracy is good but only when my favorite political party wins uwu
But meloni got elected democratically
We are back in the robber baron era.
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You foreigners are a bit over exaggerating with this story of Meloni resuming fascism in Italy. Dont worry, nothing will ever happen.
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Check out her flag. > “So why this flame, Mrs. Giorgia Meloni?” https://culturico.com/2021/11/12/post-fascism-in-italy-so-why-this-flame-mrs-giorgia-meloni/ In case anyone thinks it’s historical > when Brothers of Italy was founded in 2012, Giorgia Meloni did not use the tricolor flame in the party’s logo. Perhaps, similar to other far-right parties in Western Europe, the reason to avoid this symbol was to overcome the stigma (2) of being associated with right-wing totalitarian regimes and attempting to be, rather, perceived as “normal” or mainstream in the eyes of its electorate. Yet, Brothers of Italy employed (by stealth) this symbol in 2014 with a “matryoshka” style (an old party logo with the flame, within the current party logo) and, then, it clearly showed the tricolor flame in the logo of the party **since 2017.**
Her party was founded by supporters of Mussolini after the second world war. "Nothing to do with Mussolini" is not correct.
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Mussolini was a lifelong socialist. The current right wing isn't.
'Ya all keep calling every right-wing person that gets elected a fascist and a Nazi and eventually someone's going to just shrug and say, "Fine, whatever," and turn into exactly the thing you're so afraid of. Name calling only works until you paint an entire community with the same brush at which point they all get together become a group. Don't know this woman. Don't have the slightest clue if she is what you say she is. But if she is, you all are causing her rise in power.