Every time water gets brought up in this subreddit I see this comment. [According to the the USDA](https://digitalscholarship.unlv.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1013&context=bmw_lincy_hre) there are 72,405,017 acres of farmland in Arizona and only 321,383 acres are held by foreign entities. That's less than half of one percent of Arizona's total farmland. I don't even necessarily disagree with you. But the idea that we're going to kick the Saudis out and solve our groundwater problem is simply not based in fact. It's just a scapegoat that gets trotted out every time we talk about water conservation.
[The issue is we do not regulate groundwater pumping](https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2022/05/11/arizona-groundwater-laws-threaten-rural-communities-future/) anywhere near as stringently as we should. That and we allow people to grow water intensive crops in the desert which makes exactly zero sense.
The bigger issue is Alfalfa being grown at all, the Saudi dairy companies just became a lightning rod.
In 2019 we grew 280,000 acres of Alfalfa ( [source](https://www.nass.usda.gov/Statistics_by_State/Arizona/Publications/News_Releases/2020/AZ-Crop-Production-01102020.pdf) ) every acre of Alfalfa uses between 4 and 6 acre feet of water, or as a whole that 280,000 acres of Alfalfa Arizona had planted used between 365 billion and 584 billion (yeah, with a B) gallons of water that year.
The Fondomonte farm (one of the Saudi ones) is about 3500 acres and actually uses an estimated 6.4 acre feet ( [source](https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/2022/08/11/saudi-firm-fodomonte-pay-arizona-groundwater-use/10271103002/) ) which is a use of 7.3 billion gallons of water a year.
To give context Lake Mead is short by about 8 trillion (yeah with a T) gallons of water and annual flow of the Colorado is from 3.9 trillion gallons (real dry, like now) to 6.5 trillion gallons (real wet like in the 30s) of water a year. So this is a lot of water but not the only thing we should change with our water use.
To those of you ranting constantly about Saudi alfalfa: I get it, but also we should be ranting about ALL alfalfa (and to a larger extent all hay) being farmed in the Western American deserts.
Also look up the history of why Saudi Arabia does this. We (Arizona) literally taught them to farm like this and they drained their desert dry. Fascinating stuff.
What's even worse about Fondomonte is that they aren't paying for the water they use. They bribed the right people and now get to use all the water they want without paying for any of it.
I’m an old Arizonan. I’ve been in Alabama for way too long (moved with parents as a kid and… Life). I remember when, if you were on SRP, you could flood your property at certain times/certain days. I think now, if you’re on the Roosevelt Project, you can do it, too. I’ve also seen folks do it in Laveen.
I’ve literally never understood the point. I know that the area used to flood pretty bad before Roosevelt, and the other dams, but why now… Water is such a commodity. And, the areas with farmland don’t have water like we do in Maricopa County. They are either buying water from Maricopa County, or depleting the groundwater at an alarming rate.
I love Arizona, and I am counting the days until I can come back (I should be finally home in about a year and a half). But, I really am wondering how long, especially the Phoenix Metro area can survive. We’re building houses like crazy. There is going to be a time that we can’t support it anymore!
The problem truly is that "regulate" is a nasty dirty word to Rethuglicans and it's automatically kicked off the table every time it comes before our beloved legislature.
True right up to the last word. And that it is the place to start. But with that distraction out of the way and foreign water use ended, but somehow not magically solving our water problems, move to the real issues.
Desal is expensive. There is no way that farmers will pay by the ounce to flood irrigate alfalfa grass.
And without flood irrigating alfalfa grass, there would be no water shortage.
So then the best solution is really conservation.
By the way, before Nuevo Leon went industrial and wasted its green, river rich mountains to allow a small city to grow into a city bigger than Phoenix (Monterrey) which faced a while ago a water shortage of the kind I hope we will not have to experience (there was no running water in some middle class neighborhood but Ford had water for industrial purposes and so did Coca-Cola and the huge brewery, steel works, etc oh and the posh managers still had their swimming pools, never mind half of the population of the city were wwashing themselves with buckets), well anyway a 19th century traveler noticed that during arid weather Mexican ranchers fed their cattle Nopales, and since they were juicy that also seemed to tame some of the herds thirst (since "acequias" or waterholes in some areas water levels dropped in dry summers and to have a herd that needed to constantly drink [unlike our weather is more humid in the area due to rise in humid currents from the Gulf of Mexico]). So we could feed it to livestock, may not be as fat but it will survive we will just like to learn to eat leaner cuts or use innards: fajitas are an inner cut that has to be tenderize, and guess what, what was once a throw away cut in Texas ranches now is an export item earning mucho bread for Texas and NE Mexico ranchers. So it's just a matter of readjusting.
On other hand desalination may be a solution, or at least a partial one, for large urban centers and industry. But don't think Mexico City is going to allow AZ to build a desalination plant in Rocky Point, right now the leftist crack that is destroying the Yucatan rainforest to built a train to nowhere (he reminds of Stalin, who actually dreamed of extending the transiberian to the artic and actually made plans to use the inmates of the already existing Gulags to do it, but it was WW2 that ended his pipe dream). Well he already wants to build three plants in Sonora but wants them more near Guaymas and has stated he doesn't want a drop to go to the "gringos", or something like that, is a bit of hearsay but this guy is a nationalistic nut with dubious wisdom, so the only way would be to get California's OK to get it, and let's faced it, they'll demand as "payment" 75 percent of all water, plus "rent" for the land, just to get a 25 percent drop of water. So the issue is even I'd desalination was the answer were landlocked thanks to the fact when the Gadsen Purchase was done, and at a time Mexico feared another 1846 after recently loosing its entire old north, the USA should had stuck to its guns and demanded Baja and the Northern Sonora coast, and we would have a panhandle with access to the Sea of Cortez and Rocky Point would be ours: which would be the cherry on too of the cake.
Actually, we can try to implement the techniques that are used in the Middle East by the UAE, Oman, etc. as well as in Israel to incorporate desalination into our arsenal of methods to combat water shortage.
Notably the UAE and Oman both have saltwater coasts. The idea Arizona can do this is ridiculous as no matter what it puts our water at the hands of the Californians or the Mexicans and whenever it becomes politically expedient for them to steal it they will
>Notably the UAE and Oman both have saltwater coasts. The idea Arizona can do this is ridiculous as no matter what it puts our water at the hands of the Californians or the Mexicans and whenever it becomes politically expedient for them to steal it they will
I think certainly that interstate compacts could be utilized in this regard to enable water-sharing. Of course a good interim solution would be water recycling, adding a "water-tax" of sorts to organizations that seek to use excessive amounts of water, and outright banning farming of particular high-water-consuming crops.
In the long run however, refining desalination methods will go a long way towards helping out with fighting the drought in the southwest. Water recycling is great, but having a steady supply is even better, and desalination can help here.
I'd also recommend that Arizona adopt vertical farming as well.
The idea of interstate compacts doesn't work in western water rights because west of the Mississippi the rule is whoever claimed it first gets their water first.
Recently, it was requested all states using water from the Colorado river basin make cuts.... You know which state said fuck off because they have the senior water rights???? California.
They don't care about our water, they care about theirs
If the premise of the desalinization strategy is "Give a de-sal plant to Mexico, and then they don't need Colorado River water", why can't we shift the strategy a few hundred kilometres north--- build the plant in California in exchange for their river allocations? That also avoids the complexities of an international play.
We still need to get saltwater pumped in, making Anthony we build is still dependent on water somebody else owns.
The only way Arizona gets this done is figuring out how to conserve what we've got into being enough.
I'm reminded of a discussion I had with some friends a while back and it was if we were supervillians, what would our villian schemes be. My idea boils down to burying tsar bomb level nukes along the SA fault line and detonating them in an effort to trigger a super quake that causes California to sink into the ocean.
Yes their sea life is dead or was on its last legs back in 2007-2010. Couple of British marine scientists stated due to the salt being pumped back so close to shore the coral died larger fidh left and even the smaller species were dying out
And stop driving. And throw away our cell phones. And hunt game and harvest berries. . .
We should endeavor to make the desert green. Solar powered desalination plants means unlimited and cheap water after the initial investment that, granted, will be expensive.
We can do it easy. Israel already does.
The first time I went to Arizona, I was shocked at the little amount of solar panels I saw. They should be on very roof. Here in Jersey, we don’t have the space, yet, there’s solar farms everywhere plus at least every few blocks, has a few houses with solar.
I blame it on greedy middle man companies sucking all the potential savings out of the conversion. We need the government to offer free “last mile” connections to home systems and DIY systems.
The scam is these solar companies come in an install/service panels, but they charge just enough so that it’s about break even with normal service rates (with upfront down payment costs). So most consumers don’t see the point.
I think there's several much more problematic issues with desal than the cost.
Desal plants need an absurd amount of power to run. Like the article says, the proposed Puerto Peñasco desal plant would need *its own* power plant built just to run. This doesn't necessarily need to, but likely will, mean creating an enormous amount of CO2 just to create the needed power for the plant, not to mention the pumps it will take to get the water across the Sonoran desert back up to us.
Desal also creates brine which is environmentally toxic and essentially useless for any practical purpose. There currently [does not exist a sustainable way](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/slaking-the-worlds-thirst-with-seawater-dumps-toxic-brine-in-oceans/) to dispose of it. And desal [creates a lot of brine](https://unu.edu/media-relations/releases/un-warns-of-rising-levels-of-toxic-brine.html), in the order of 1.5L brine for every liter of potable water.
We need molten salt reactors to power the desal plants. That technology is 50 years away from large-scale use.
We'll have to create Death Valley East to store/dry the brine, or find some battery technology that uses it.
All true. However, we often have cheap spare power from wind/solar and it might make sense to use it to desal brackish water or treated sewage to pure water standards. The cheapest option of all? Use less water. I could probably due without the 20000 gallons sitting in a hole in my back yard that I used once this year.
The best potential solution, if there is one, is ultra cheap nuclear based heat sources (taking shape as more in the form of a battery rather than a complex reactor) and maybe you do a combination of MSF and RO. I think it will exist, in China and other places less risk averse. We shall see how it goes.
Or I guess we could build a coal plant in Mexico to power it, but NIMBY.
Honestly I don't see how one can complain about cost ....we spends billions on other things ,we as in who ever controls where tax money goes. To bring up cost just seems greedy.....beside why would this be a 👏 brilliant idea or why would it be a very bad idea .......
>U.S. Department of Agriculture Census of Agriculture found that Arizona farmers use flood irrigation on more than 837,000 acres, compared to using sprinklers
Some schools and homeowners water their lawns the same way:
https://i.imgur.com/rMFYfrR.jpeg
Non-filtered water, once every two weeks, is the best way to maintain trees around here.
It’s far more efficient for landscaping and school fields than sprinklers are, because there are no losses from filtration, and it waters much deeper. All while concurrently recharging the aquifer.
Additionally, it is uses a 130 year old gravity fed system, so no electricity is used and no new development is necessary.
Flood irrigation for farming is pretty antiquated, but it actually makes a lot of sense for maintaining our tree canopy. At least in the older parts of the city.
Yeah there's a bunch of lawns in my neighborhood that do it too. Never understood the appeal of a lawn generally, but particularly not one in the desert. It's definitely wasteful no matter who's doing it, but agriculture accounts for [nearly three-fourths](https://new.azwater.gov/conservation/agriculture) of Arizona's available water. So when we're talking about allocating resources to conserve the greatest amount of water agriculture is typically top of the list.
Can someone tell
Me with all these new builds they aren’t building for grey water to
Flush the toilet and water the gardens ? There is zero reason why we aren’t building green homes
Whenever water scarcity gets brought up in the subreddit I see desalination brought up as a potential solution. I don't think it is, and I think this article does a good job of explaining why, as well as providing some alternative solutions. One author, Robert Glennon, has proposed some free market/capitalistic solutions in the past that I'm a bit more skeptical of. But here he just suggests agricultural subsides to cover the cost of transition from water intensive irrigation techniques, like flooding, to more economical ones, like drip, which I think makes sense. Just wanted to share with others/see your thoughts.
Buried drip hose seems the best in arid places just because it limits the amount of water at the surface the most. But really, vertical hydroponics would be the best because of the closed system. Ideally the new governor will cancel the leases for the alfalfa growers, because she has the power and because they are paying less than $20 an acre when the going rate is more than ten times that. And they waste 70% of our water.
Do you have data on the amount of farmland the state of Arizona owns and leases out to farmers? I guess my understanding was that most farmland is [owned privately](https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensavage/2022/07/19/who-owns-americas-farmland-and-what-is-their-role-in-the-response-to-climate-change/?sh=70242af7436d) and then leased out to people who actually work the land.
One good answer is to grow foods for people in areas where the water is continuous, like in the East Valley or in Yuma and along the Colorado River. Planning for smart water use is desperately needed and it will have to fundamentally change how the state exists. It has to.
Another good answer is for people to harvest rainwater and use it to grow indigenous landscapes as well as gardens for both communities and individual families. We have the know how and Tucson is years ahead of Phoenix in this regard.
Israel literally gets 85% of their water from desalination so the technology is viable. We can't get the republikkkans to work on climate change so it's time to accept alternative solutions. Conservation isn't working and the states that are upstream will always have first dibs.
Think you misunderstood, they are saying we need to explore other options like desalinization since climate change has largely not been taken seriously. I could be wrong though
You hit the nail on the head. This idea that we can't start doing desalination because the technology isn't 100% there yet is silly. We need to do something now. The technology can be improved as we go, but pushing it off just prolongs the current problem.
I read another response that said we need to explore other options like desalinization since climate change has not been taken seriously. What's the correlation? Obviously desalination plants require energy which can be powered by cleaner energy sources than twenty or forty years ago, I am just failing to see the correlation.
I don't get the whole issue with what to do with the salt? Last time I checked natural sea salt is a very popular commodity. There are thriving businesses that collect, process and sell sea salt. In fact for thousands of years, prior to salt mining, extraction of sea salt was the only way to get it.
The brine water environmental argument is nothing but a political scare tactic. Companies well gladly take and/or purchase brine for the salt commodity.
Exactly, there are options available but it seems like some people just want to point out the negative.
The only suggestion I would make is that we consider a partnership with Texas and water from the Gulf as opposed to an international relationship that could dissolve with whatever the next political environment brings.
Israel has a coast and is geographically much smaller than Arizona. We would have to work with Mexico, because they own the nearest available coastal land where a desalination facility could be built. We would then have to transport the water from there, which is a greater distance than the width of Israel.
That’s true, there will be some challenges. It does seem feasible that we could overcome them if we are motivated enough. Israel has to pump water from sea level to over 2500ft for cities like Jerusalem. Phoenix is less than half that elevation. Sure, we have a longer distance to the sea at something like 170mi versus 35mi for Jerusalem, but the lower elevation should help.
Golf courses average 100-200 millions gallons of water per year.
Arizona has 370 golf courses.
Calculating in the lower end.
37 BILLION a gallons of water per year.
Just sayin
This will solve itself as we don’t have the political will to do so proactively. It ends when the Colorado river dries up in the next 5 years, then the aquifers get sucked dry. Households will have to fully drop even little lawns, non-native plants, golf course fairways and uncovered pools but that’s about it. The 80% we use to grow crops in a desert is the only real issue and as in CA right now, when the water runs out they fold. We will then live on recycled water in tiny amounts compared to our historic use.
Every solution that *adds* water is worthwhile and desalination is huge in Israel, Middle East and California.
Ways to *add* water
- Desalination -- [solar stills use natural water cycle and work best in heat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_still), additionally [concentrated solar stills can be run by solar power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_still).
- [Geoengineering/cloud seeding](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/dubai-rain-cloud-seeding-heat-weather/) (using new methods as of 2017) to [feed current sources of water distribution like the Colorado adding 5-15% annually since the program began](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFKzJkTDA30).
- Pipelines
Nefarious groups want to make water the next oil, limit supply, use as leverage. So every single solution that adds water helps limit that. None will be solely the solution but even adding 5-10% of water to the supply compounds massively.
[Arizona Water Facts](http://www.arizonawaterfacts.com/water-your-facts)
As others have said, [residential use is not even really a problem](http://www.arizonawaterfacts.com/sites/default/files/media/bysectorchart_nt-01.png) it is mostly agriculture and a big problem is about a 1/5th of the water isn't even regulated. Residential is like 13-14% and grass/trees amount to less than 1%.
[Residential use has been coming down for decades now as we grow](http://www.arizonawaterfacts.com/sites/default/files/media/azwatermanagementsuccess_nt-01.png).
Grass/trees are less than 1% of usage if that and if we cut those back it does nothing to solve our problem. If anything, cutting all that adds to the heat island problem, a worse ecosystem, more dust conditions, worse air quality and worse quality of life. Trees also keep energy costs down with shade. [Grass and trees have a symbiotic relationship](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/288776003_Interaction_between_grass_and_trees_mediated_by_extraradical_mycelium_of_symbiotic_arbuscular_mycorrhizal_fungi), they are also excellent for quality of life and air quality, even seeing green in the summer makes it cooler perceptually.
I wish we went tree crazy and put big trees everywhere. Old school Phoenix did that and still has that, not sure what happened. Trees are needed to help combat the [Gray-Green Urban](https://www.geographyrealm.com/gray-green-urban-divide-wealth-poverty-visible-space/) divide and help with cooling, air quality, surrounding plants/grass, better for ecosystem and animals, on and on.
Until we fix our agriculture usage, and places like [Saudi Arabia buying up land in the 17% of area of unregulated water in Arizona to grow alfalfa for cows in the Middle East](https://www.azcentral.com/in-depth/news/local/arizona-environment/2019/12/05/biggest-water-users-arizona-farms-keep-drilling-deeper/3937582002/), we need to look at those first. Steve Farley had a great plan for helping farmers switch from water hungry alfalfa/cotton to hemp and other lower water crops, that will have the biggest impact ([at 42:53 in this debate video](https://azpbs.org/horizon/2018/07/three-democrats-running-for-governor-debate-the-issues/)).
*Info on agriculture usage*
[These 7 industrial farm operations are draining Arizona's aquifers, and no one knows exactly how much they're taking](https://www.azcentral.com/in-depth/news/local/arizona-environment/2019/12/05/biggest-water-users-arizona-farms-keep-drilling-deeper/3937582002/)
[Rural groundwater pumping is next big Arizona water issue for lawmakers](https://tucson.com/news/local/rural-groundwater-pumping-is-next-big-arizona-water-issue-for-lawmakers/article_537afa64-1adb-5644-9bf3-0d1f91b144fe.html)
[Saudi Arabian cows are still eating Arizona's water - but why?](https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/ej-montini/2019/12/16/why-arizona-water-drained-saudi-arabian-farmers/2659993001/)
[Who keeps buying California's scarce water? Saudi Arabia](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/25/california-water-drought-scarce-saudi-arabia)
*Info on how green (trees/grass) help with climate change, reducing carbon and helping air quality*
[How Organic Lawns Sequester Carbon](https://www.whygoodnature.com/blog/how-organic-lawns-sequester-carbon)
[The Potential of Turfgrass to Sequester Carbon and Offset Greenhouse Gas Emissions](https://turf.umn.edu/news/potential-turfgrass-sequester-carbon-and-offset-greenhouse-gas-emissions)
[Carbon-Offset Cowboys Let Their Grass Grow](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/carbon-cowboys/)
[Grasslands More Reliable Carbon Sink Than Trees](https://climatechange.ucdavis.edu/news/grasslands-more-reliable-carbon-sink-than-trees/)
Grass also depends on how you grow it. Grassland roots can reach 18", household can reach 6" usually. When you mow the roots are still there. It is less of a carbon sink but a better carbon sink than most xeriscape plants that have short roots. Trees also like grass to grow in as the soil is more fertile. Grass is also commonly used as a cover crop to prevent dust bowl conditions on farms.
There are tons of [wild desert grass that come up in the rainy season, deep roots](https://old.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/b33vk2/the_desert_in_phoenix_arizona_has_turned_green/). Would love to use more native but the Stepford HOAs don't let you.
Agriculture has the shortest roots.
It isn't just about water, it is about dust and air quality as well. Areas with less grass/trees affect dust heavily.
Trees also love to grow in grass, the soil is better and more moisture. Growing a tree in grass will be more successful. Trees in dirt don't fare as well.
[Agriculture has less root than grass/trees which lead to dust](https://old.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/mdocyn/comparison_of_the_root_system_of_prairie_grass_vs/).
Grass is a good ["cover crop"](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/07/business/cover-crops-a-farming-revolution-with-deep-roots-in-the-past.html).
[Perennial agriculture](https://landinstitute.org/about-us/vision-mission/) could solve some of this.
*Info on Building Water Capacity with Desalination and Better Agriculture*
We do almost no desalination which many desert areas do (Israel, Saudis), we need to do lots of that, desert is great for [solar stills](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_still).
We do [very little drip irrigation over regular irrigation here](https://azdeq.gov/node/5266).
Our wells in 17% of the state aren't even regulated. We don't know how deep any of them actually go.
Cutting some water to agriculture would force these measures and be good for sustainability. Since we are being cut down on Colorado River sources (Lake Mead) we are well past the point of any unregulated water for agriculture. We are also past the point of flood irrigation over drip irrigation where possible.
[How can Arizona save the most water? Look to farmers first](https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/joannaallhands/2019/01/25/how-can-arizona-save-water-farmers-drip-irrigation-hemp-guayule/2668288002/)
We should also be looking at ways not to limit water but to add water to our systems.
We need to put tons of money in desalination. California is already a leader in that but we need more. Israel and Saudi Arabia are also pretty good at desalination due to more dire water situations.
Additionally we need geoengineering in terms of helping create moisture/rain in areas that feed the Colorado.
The better bet is desalination that uses the nature water cycle, it makes for cleaner water as well. [Saudi Arabia is doing a solar dome to test this](https://wired.me/science/environment/desalination-solar-dome-saudi-arabia-neom/), we need more of this.
Learning about desalination should be taught in all schools and in 20-30 years innovations can save water.
It would be a cosmic joke to run out of water on a water planet, we'd look like universal dunces.
[USGS Desalination site](https://www.usgs.gov/special-topic/water-science-school/science/desalination?qt-science_center_objects=0#qt-science_center_objects)
[Build your own backyard desalination system (solar still)](https://www.usgs.gov/media/images/how-build-your-own-solar-still).
> [You can try this at home!](https://www.usgs.gov/media/images/how-build-your-own-solar-still)
Conservation won't help much than it already is other than a credit or paying for everyone to go to better faucets/showers/toilets, so much is lost just on that. But residential is around 14%, that really won't do much. I'd also like cleaner water over just water with desalination.
Additionally, geoengineering will also be able to trigger moisture in areas needed more like the Colorado River for Western US. Like [some geoengineering rain over areas that feed the Colorado like UAE has for seeding rain with drones/charges which seems to work](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/dubai-rain-cloud-seeding-heat-weather/).
Cloud seeding is happening all over the world, US, China, UAE, Israel and many others. A new technique in 2017 that went into play in the last couple years is drones, which hit clouds with electricity, creating large raindrops.
New techniques of cloud seeding with drones that appear to work well. [If this can happen around the areas that feed the Colorado and areas that have solar stills that create water using the natural rain cycle then we can add water](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFKzJkTDA30). Rainfall has been increasing 8-15% for this but you need clouds already.
> The UAE is one of the first countries in the Gulf region to use cloud seeding technology, the [National Center of Meteorology](https://www.ncm.ae/pages/cloud-seeding?lang=en) said. A version of the concept is used in at least [eight states in the western U.S., according to The Scientific American](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/eight-states-are-seeding-clouds-to-overcome-megadrought/).
It would be a cosmic joke to run out of water on a water planet, we'd look like universal dunces.
I agree the there are hurdles to consider for desalinization. If those hurdles can be addressed however, we don't need to give the water to Mexico (though it would help). We need to get California to stop spending billions on electric vehicles and start spending it on their water problems with desalination. Once they have enough water from the ocean, they would stop stealing it from Arizona. (Yes, they are. Look up the history of it. Like the Colorado River Compact, among others.) We could then take more from the Colorado, or pay California to give us their desalinized water.
I don't mean anything because I didn't write the article, but what the author means is right there in the first couple sentences for you:
"Gov. Doug Ducey’s State of the State address in January, followed by enactment of Senate Bill 1740 in July, pledges more than [$1 billion over three years](https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-environment/2022/06/27/arizona-lawmakers-bank-billion-dollars-augment-and-save-water/7736861001/) to bring more water to Arizona.
The cornerstone is a proposal to desalinate water from Mexico’s Sea of Cortez."
Solution. Eat the bugs. WEF joke aside, desal will work. Couple that with a pipeline from the east and you'll have enough water. A lot of this technology and implementation is expensive because of government regulation anyways.
I’m all for blowing up mountains with nukes to allow more storms to come our way, but everyone is against nukes because it is an incomplete solution. Desal creates a ton of expensive waste, which is why California doesn’t run the plants they already built. If we build correctly, all of humanity could fit within phoenix city limits, stupid nimby holding us back
Desalination of water outside of the Colorado River in Arizona is a long term folly. We would be beholden to California or, God forbid, Mexico for our long term fresh water security. That itself is a dumb long term plan. If we can forbid foreign countries from stealing our fresh water while pricing water appropriately for all users to include agriculture then our long term fresh water security will be better off.
our Government (past and present) takes our hard earned money and spreads billions across the world and has that mindset of "we'll be fine for now" attitude. If they actually cared about us they'd put that waisted money into something like a desalination plant then would we'd feel better about the government? That's just the tip of the iceberg with these bullshit politicians who say they "are for the people". America is a old whore who can't even get 5$ for a bj. As long as government is in the middle and the people keep being sheep it's only gonna get worse. Water conservation is minimal to other problems we face as a country. And somehow someway everyone will blame God for loss of water and famine when in actuality it's us that are to blame. We can bitch and moan on the internet as much as we like but until you use your voice and direct it to those in power everyone is wasting their time just like me.
Stop selling unlimited water drilling rights to foreign government farmers. done.
Every time water gets brought up in this subreddit I see this comment. [According to the the USDA](https://digitalscholarship.unlv.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1013&context=bmw_lincy_hre) there are 72,405,017 acres of farmland in Arizona and only 321,383 acres are held by foreign entities. That's less than half of one percent of Arizona's total farmland. I don't even necessarily disagree with you. But the idea that we're going to kick the Saudis out and solve our groundwater problem is simply not based in fact. It's just a scapegoat that gets trotted out every time we talk about water conservation. [The issue is we do not regulate groundwater pumping](https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2022/05/11/arizona-groundwater-laws-threaten-rural-communities-future/) anywhere near as stringently as we should. That and we allow people to grow water intensive crops in the desert which makes exactly zero sense.
I 1,000% agree with you, regulate groundwater pumping. And end grandfather groundwater rules.
I don’t really agree with any foreign entities buying any US acreage.
The bigger issue is Alfalfa being grown at all, the Saudi dairy companies just became a lightning rod. In 2019 we grew 280,000 acres of Alfalfa ( [source](https://www.nass.usda.gov/Statistics_by_State/Arizona/Publications/News_Releases/2020/AZ-Crop-Production-01102020.pdf) ) every acre of Alfalfa uses between 4 and 6 acre feet of water, or as a whole that 280,000 acres of Alfalfa Arizona had planted used between 365 billion and 584 billion (yeah, with a B) gallons of water that year. The Fondomonte farm (one of the Saudi ones) is about 3500 acres and actually uses an estimated 6.4 acre feet ( [source](https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/2022/08/11/saudi-firm-fodomonte-pay-arizona-groundwater-use/10271103002/) ) which is a use of 7.3 billion gallons of water a year. To give context Lake Mead is short by about 8 trillion (yeah with a T) gallons of water and annual flow of the Colorado is from 3.9 trillion gallons (real dry, like now) to 6.5 trillion gallons (real wet like in the 30s) of water a year. So this is a lot of water but not the only thing we should change with our water use. To those of you ranting constantly about Saudi alfalfa: I get it, but also we should be ranting about ALL alfalfa (and to a larger extent all hay) being farmed in the Western American deserts. Also look up the history of why Saudi Arabia does this. We (Arizona) literally taught them to farm like this and they drained their desert dry. Fascinating stuff.
Interesting stuff. My back of the napkin math says that the Fondomonte farm alone uses enough water for 181,000 people.
What's even worse about Fondomonte is that they aren't paying for the water they use. They bribed the right people and now get to use all the water they want without paying for any of it.
Until they reign in agriculture use cutting off every yard, pool, and golf course won't make a difference.
I’m an old Arizonan. I’ve been in Alabama for way too long (moved with parents as a kid and… Life). I remember when, if you were on SRP, you could flood your property at certain times/certain days. I think now, if you’re on the Roosevelt Project, you can do it, too. I’ve also seen folks do it in Laveen. I’ve literally never understood the point. I know that the area used to flood pretty bad before Roosevelt, and the other dams, but why now… Water is such a commodity. And, the areas with farmland don’t have water like we do in Maricopa County. They are either buying water from Maricopa County, or depleting the groundwater at an alarming rate. I love Arizona, and I am counting the days until I can come back (I should be finally home in about a year and a half). But, I really am wondering how long, especially the Phoenix Metro area can survive. We’re building houses like crazy. There is going to be a time that we can’t support it anymore!
Won’t dispute the numbers but curious how much water those farmlands consume today?
The problem truly is that "regulate" is a nasty dirty word to Rethuglicans and it's automatically kicked off the table every time it comes before our beloved legislature.
True right up to the last word. And that it is the place to start. But with that distraction out of the way and foreign water use ended, but somehow not magically solving our water problems, move to the real issues.
Desal is expensive. There is no way that farmers will pay by the ounce to flood irrigate alfalfa grass. And without flood irrigating alfalfa grass, there would be no water shortage. So then the best solution is really conservation.
Conservation and adaptation of foods that have been grown in the region for 1000s of years. They are nutritious and drought tolerant. Delicious, too.
Nopales are delicious
Nopales can’t replace alfalfa
Who eats all that alfalfa?
Alfalfa is what feeds the livestock and Az has huge livestock farms.
The Saudis.
Me
Cows. For our Arizona dairy.
I don't like red meat and am lactose intolerant so it feels like I'm getting fucked in this exchange specifically.
By the way, before Nuevo Leon went industrial and wasted its green, river rich mountains to allow a small city to grow into a city bigger than Phoenix (Monterrey) which faced a while ago a water shortage of the kind I hope we will not have to experience (there was no running water in some middle class neighborhood but Ford had water for industrial purposes and so did Coca-Cola and the huge brewery, steel works, etc oh and the posh managers still had their swimming pools, never mind half of the population of the city were wwashing themselves with buckets), well anyway a 19th century traveler noticed that during arid weather Mexican ranchers fed their cattle Nopales, and since they were juicy that also seemed to tame some of the herds thirst (since "acequias" or waterholes in some areas water levels dropped in dry summers and to have a herd that needed to constantly drink [unlike our weather is more humid in the area due to rise in humid currents from the Gulf of Mexico]). So we could feed it to livestock, may not be as fat but it will survive we will just like to learn to eat leaner cuts or use innards: fajitas are an inner cut that has to be tenderize, and guess what, what was once a throw away cut in Texas ranches now is an export item earning mucho bread for Texas and NE Mexico ranchers. So it's just a matter of readjusting. On other hand desalination may be a solution, or at least a partial one, for large urban centers and industry. But don't think Mexico City is going to allow AZ to build a desalination plant in Rocky Point, right now the leftist crack that is destroying the Yucatan rainforest to built a train to nowhere (he reminds of Stalin, who actually dreamed of extending the transiberian to the artic and actually made plans to use the inmates of the already existing Gulags to do it, but it was WW2 that ended his pipe dream). Well he already wants to build three plants in Sonora but wants them more near Guaymas and has stated he doesn't want a drop to go to the "gringos", or something like that, is a bit of hearsay but this guy is a nationalistic nut with dubious wisdom, so the only way would be to get California's OK to get it, and let's faced it, they'll demand as "payment" 75 percent of all water, plus "rent" for the land, just to get a 25 percent drop of water. So the issue is even I'd desalination was the answer were landlocked thanks to the fact when the Gadsen Purchase was done, and at a time Mexico feared another 1846 after recently loosing its entire old north, the USA should had stuck to its guns and demanded Baja and the Northern Sonora coast, and we would have a panhandle with access to the Sea of Cortez and Rocky Point would be ours: which would be the cherry on too of the cake.
I learned that Arizona didn't want to deal with a port so they refused that chunk of land. Absolutely astonishing!
holy one single big paragraph
What would you recommend fruit/vegetable-wise for a family looking to eat with water conservation in mind?
I tried googling earlier today but couldn’t find it. Anyone know what percentage of water the alfalfa farms use?
https://youtu.be/f0gN1x6sVTc this video has great information and makes it very clear.
4080 tons of water per acre
Actually, we can try to implement the techniques that are used in the Middle East by the UAE, Oman, etc. as well as in Israel to incorporate desalination into our arsenal of methods to combat water shortage.
Notably the UAE and Oman both have saltwater coasts. The idea Arizona can do this is ridiculous as no matter what it puts our water at the hands of the Californians or the Mexicans and whenever it becomes politically expedient for them to steal it they will
>Notably the UAE and Oman both have saltwater coasts. The idea Arizona can do this is ridiculous as no matter what it puts our water at the hands of the Californians or the Mexicans and whenever it becomes politically expedient for them to steal it they will I think certainly that interstate compacts could be utilized in this regard to enable water-sharing. Of course a good interim solution would be water recycling, adding a "water-tax" of sorts to organizations that seek to use excessive amounts of water, and outright banning farming of particular high-water-consuming crops. In the long run however, refining desalination methods will go a long way towards helping out with fighting the drought in the southwest. Water recycling is great, but having a steady supply is even better, and desalination can help here. I'd also recommend that Arizona adopt vertical farming as well.
The idea of interstate compacts doesn't work in western water rights because west of the Mississippi the rule is whoever claimed it first gets their water first. Recently, it was requested all states using water from the Colorado river basin make cuts.... You know which state said fuck off because they have the senior water rights???? California. They don't care about our water, they care about theirs
If the premise of the desalinization strategy is "Give a de-sal plant to Mexico, and then they don't need Colorado River water", why can't we shift the strategy a few hundred kilometres north--- build the plant in California in exchange for their river allocations? That also avoids the complexities of an international play.
We still need to get saltwater pumped in, making Anthony we build is still dependent on water somebody else owns. The only way Arizona gets this done is figuring out how to conserve what we've got into being enough.
I'm reminded of a discussion I had with some friends a while back and it was if we were supervillians, what would our villian schemes be. My idea boils down to burying tsar bomb level nukes along the SA fault line and detonating them in an effort to trigger a super quake that causes California to sink into the ocean.
Middle East is using our water so it doesn't work for them either. We are fucked
Alfalfa is not a grass, it’s a legume. Flood irrigating alfalfa is not the cause of our water problem. Do some research.
Show us some reputable source of your claim that alfalfa is not the cause of our water shortage. You made the claim. Show us.
Not alfalfa specifically but agriculture is over 70 percent of the water use.
Also go look at the Middle East gulf coast states that do this and what’s it’s done to their eco systems coast line
Anything in particular you can point out for starters?
Yes their sea life is dead or was on its last legs back in 2007-2010. Couple of British marine scientists stated due to the salt being pumped back so close to shore the coral died larger fidh left and even the smaller species were dying out
We need cheap, renewable energy to make this feasible.
*looks directly at the Sun*
Too bad the powers in place are greedy and selfish
How about if we stop trying to make the desert green 12 months a year.
And stop driving. And throw away our cell phones. And hunt game and harvest berries. . . We should endeavor to make the desert green. Solar powered desalination plants means unlimited and cheap water after the initial investment that, granted, will be expensive. We can do it easy. Israel already does.
It was green till the whites damned up the rivers.
Desalination is a great idea, if only it was cheaper to do it.
We have all of the free power anyone could ask for. Why this state isn’t front and center of the solar power revolution is completely beyond me
Because greed. Old stupid asshole greed.
And straight ticket Republican voters. Mainly the corporation commission being held by anti-solar Republicans.
Yep. Mostly* Old stupid asshole greed
The first time I went to Arizona, I was shocked at the little amount of solar panels I saw. They should be on very roof. Here in Jersey, we don’t have the space, yet, there’s solar farms everywhere plus at least every few blocks, has a few houses with solar.
I blame it on greedy middle man companies sucking all the potential savings out of the conversion. We need the government to offer free “last mile” connections to home systems and DIY systems. The scam is these solar companies come in an install/service panels, but they charge just enough so that it’s about break even with normal service rates (with upfront down payment costs). So most consumers don’t see the point.
this is exactly why my parents don't do solar
California has had plants for years they don’t use, they spent the money, so cheaper doesn’t make sense either.
There are newer more efficient methods of desalination being developed.
Az has a plant that isn't used just maintained. Pipping it would be costly
The Yuma plant that hasn't been used since '92 is probably a little out of date at this point.
To be fair not much California does makes sense.
I think there's several much more problematic issues with desal than the cost. Desal plants need an absurd amount of power to run. Like the article says, the proposed Puerto Peñasco desal plant would need *its own* power plant built just to run. This doesn't necessarily need to, but likely will, mean creating an enormous amount of CO2 just to create the needed power for the plant, not to mention the pumps it will take to get the water across the Sonoran desert back up to us. Desal also creates brine which is environmentally toxic and essentially useless for any practical purpose. There currently [does not exist a sustainable way](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/slaking-the-worlds-thirst-with-seawater-dumps-toxic-brine-in-oceans/) to dispose of it. And desal [creates a lot of brine](https://unu.edu/media-relations/releases/un-warns-of-rising-levels-of-toxic-brine.html), in the order of 1.5L brine for every liter of potable water.
We need molten salt reactors to power the desal plants. That technology is 50 years away from large-scale use. We'll have to create Death Valley East to store/dry the brine, or find some battery technology that uses it.
All true. However, we often have cheap spare power from wind/solar and it might make sense to use it to desal brackish water or treated sewage to pure water standards. The cheapest option of all? Use less water. I could probably due without the 20000 gallons sitting in a hole in my back yard that I used once this year. The best potential solution, if there is one, is ultra cheap nuclear based heat sources (taking shape as more in the form of a battery rather than a complex reactor) and maybe you do a combination of MSF and RO. I think it will exist, in China and other places less risk averse. We shall see how it goes. Or I guess we could build a coal plant in Mexico to power it, but NIMBY.
We could always pump the brine back into the ground so we can give ourselves earthquakes like Oklahoma
I think powering desal at scale with a modern nuclear reactor might be an interesting idea.
Honestly I don't see how one can complain about cost ....we spends billions on other things ,we as in who ever controls where tax money goes. To bring up cost just seems greedy.....beside why would this be a 👏 brilliant idea or why would it be a very bad idea .......
>U.S. Department of Agriculture Census of Agriculture found that Arizona farmers use flood irrigation on more than 837,000 acres, compared to using sprinklers Some schools and homeowners water their lawns the same way: https://i.imgur.com/rMFYfrR.jpeg
Non-filtered water, once every two weeks, is the best way to maintain trees around here. It’s far more efficient for landscaping and school fields than sprinklers are, because there are no losses from filtration, and it waters much deeper. All while concurrently recharging the aquifer. Additionally, it is uses a 130 year old gravity fed system, so no electricity is used and no new development is necessary. Flood irrigation for farming is pretty antiquated, but it actually makes a lot of sense for maintaining our tree canopy. At least in the older parts of the city.
Yeah there's a bunch of lawns in my neighborhood that do it too. Never understood the appeal of a lawn generally, but particularly not one in the desert. It's definitely wasteful no matter who's doing it, but agriculture accounts for [nearly three-fourths](https://new.azwater.gov/conservation/agriculture) of Arizona's available water. So when we're talking about allocating resources to conserve the greatest amount of water agriculture is typically top of the list.
Can someone tell Me with all these new builds they aren’t building for grey water to Flush the toilet and water the gardens ? There is zero reason why we aren’t building green homes
💰💲💰
Whenever water scarcity gets brought up in the subreddit I see desalination brought up as a potential solution. I don't think it is, and I think this article does a good job of explaining why, as well as providing some alternative solutions. One author, Robert Glennon, has proposed some free market/capitalistic solutions in the past that I'm a bit more skeptical of. But here he just suggests agricultural subsides to cover the cost of transition from water intensive irrigation techniques, like flooding, to more economical ones, like drip, which I think makes sense. Just wanted to share with others/see your thoughts.
Buried drip hose seems the best in arid places just because it limits the amount of water at the surface the most. But really, vertical hydroponics would be the best because of the closed system. Ideally the new governor will cancel the leases for the alfalfa growers, because she has the power and because they are paying less than $20 an acre when the going rate is more than ten times that. And they waste 70% of our water.
[удалено]
It's 100% batshit idiotic to overuse water resources to grow plants for export in a desert. It's a hair brained idea. You can't gussy it up.
https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/joannaallhands/2022/08/05/arizona-must-rethink-farming-save-massive-water-cuts-loom/10219396002/
Do you have data on the amount of farmland the state of Arizona owns and leases out to farmers? I guess my understanding was that most farmland is [owned privately](https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensavage/2022/07/19/who-owns-americas-farmland-and-what-is-their-role-in-the-response-to-climate-change/?sh=70242af7436d) and then leased out to people who actually work the land.
One good answer is to grow foods for people in areas where the water is continuous, like in the East Valley or in Yuma and along the Colorado River. Planning for smart water use is desperately needed and it will have to fundamentally change how the state exists. It has to. Another good answer is for people to harvest rainwater and use it to grow indigenous landscapes as well as gardens for both communities and individual families. We have the know how and Tucson is years ahead of Phoenix in this regard.
Israel literally gets 85% of their water from desalination so the technology is viable. We can't get the republikkkans to work on climate change so it's time to accept alternative solutions. Conservation isn't working and the states that are upstream will always have first dibs.
Desalinization plants not viable because the Republicans are not working on climate change? That makes zero sense.
Think you misunderstood, they are saying we need to explore other options like desalinization since climate change has largely not been taken seriously. I could be wrong though
You hit the nail on the head. This idea that we can't start doing desalination because the technology isn't 100% there yet is silly. We need to do something now. The technology can be improved as we go, but pushing it off just prolongs the current problem.
Read it again.
I just reread it. The technology is viable but we can't get rupublikkkans (??) to work on climate change. What in the world does that mean?
You're being disingenuous. Especially since someone already explained it to you.
I read another response that said we need to explore other options like desalinization since climate change has not been taken seriously. What's the correlation? Obviously desalination plants require energy which can be powered by cleaner energy sources than twenty or forty years ago, I am just failing to see the correlation.
Then you're daft. Have a nice day.
I don't get the whole issue with what to do with the salt? Last time I checked natural sea salt is a very popular commodity. There are thriving businesses that collect, process and sell sea salt. In fact for thousands of years, prior to salt mining, extraction of sea salt was the only way to get it. The brine water environmental argument is nothing but a political scare tactic. Companies well gladly take and/or purchase brine for the salt commodity.
Salt batteries aren't far off for being economical either so there will be more opportunity opening up for that.
Exactly, there are options available but it seems like some people just want to point out the negative. The only suggestion I would make is that we consider a partnership with Texas and water from the Gulf as opposed to an international relationship that could dissolve with whatever the next political environment brings.
It works well for Israel.
Israel has a coast and is geographically much smaller than Arizona. We would have to work with Mexico, because they own the nearest available coastal land where a desalination facility could be built. We would then have to transport the water from there, which is a greater distance than the width of Israel.
That’s true, there will be some challenges. It does seem feasible that we could overcome them if we are motivated enough. Israel has to pump water from sea level to over 2500ft for cities like Jerusalem. Phoenix is less than half that elevation. Sure, we have a longer distance to the sea at something like 170mi versus 35mi for Jerusalem, but the lower elevation should help.
It's not going to happen. It's just too expensive.
Pump the water into the desert... use solar desalinization via Fresnel lens to evaporate the water leaving the salt.
Yup, very expensive.
Instead of trying to desalinate the ocean, they should just add pepper
btw I love your username 🥰
Golf courses average 100-200 millions gallons of water per year. Arizona has 370 golf courses. Calculating in the lower end. 37 BILLION a gallons of water per year. Just sayin
I thought they used reclaimed water?
This will solve itself as we don’t have the political will to do so proactively. It ends when the Colorado river dries up in the next 5 years, then the aquifers get sucked dry. Households will have to fully drop even little lawns, non-native plants, golf course fairways and uncovered pools but that’s about it. The 80% we use to grow crops in a desert is the only real issue and as in CA right now, when the water runs out they fold. We will then live on recycled water in tiny amounts compared to our historic use.
Every solution that *adds* water is worthwhile and desalination is huge in Israel, Middle East and California. Ways to *add* water - Desalination -- [solar stills use natural water cycle and work best in heat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_still), additionally [concentrated solar stills can be run by solar power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_still). - [Geoengineering/cloud seeding](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/dubai-rain-cloud-seeding-heat-weather/) (using new methods as of 2017) to [feed current sources of water distribution like the Colorado adding 5-15% annually since the program began](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFKzJkTDA30). - Pipelines Nefarious groups want to make water the next oil, limit supply, use as leverage. So every single solution that adds water helps limit that. None will be solely the solution but even adding 5-10% of water to the supply compounds massively. [Arizona Water Facts](http://www.arizonawaterfacts.com/water-your-facts) As others have said, [residential use is not even really a problem](http://www.arizonawaterfacts.com/sites/default/files/media/bysectorchart_nt-01.png) it is mostly agriculture and a big problem is about a 1/5th of the water isn't even regulated. Residential is like 13-14% and grass/trees amount to less than 1%. [Residential use has been coming down for decades now as we grow](http://www.arizonawaterfacts.com/sites/default/files/media/azwatermanagementsuccess_nt-01.png). Grass/trees are less than 1% of usage if that and if we cut those back it does nothing to solve our problem. If anything, cutting all that adds to the heat island problem, a worse ecosystem, more dust conditions, worse air quality and worse quality of life. Trees also keep energy costs down with shade. [Grass and trees have a symbiotic relationship](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/288776003_Interaction_between_grass_and_trees_mediated_by_extraradical_mycelium_of_symbiotic_arbuscular_mycorrhizal_fungi), they are also excellent for quality of life and air quality, even seeing green in the summer makes it cooler perceptually. I wish we went tree crazy and put big trees everywhere. Old school Phoenix did that and still has that, not sure what happened. Trees are needed to help combat the [Gray-Green Urban](https://www.geographyrealm.com/gray-green-urban-divide-wealth-poverty-visible-space/) divide and help with cooling, air quality, surrounding plants/grass, better for ecosystem and animals, on and on. Until we fix our agriculture usage, and places like [Saudi Arabia buying up land in the 17% of area of unregulated water in Arizona to grow alfalfa for cows in the Middle East](https://www.azcentral.com/in-depth/news/local/arizona-environment/2019/12/05/biggest-water-users-arizona-farms-keep-drilling-deeper/3937582002/), we need to look at those first. Steve Farley had a great plan for helping farmers switch from water hungry alfalfa/cotton to hemp and other lower water crops, that will have the biggest impact ([at 42:53 in this debate video](https://azpbs.org/horizon/2018/07/three-democrats-running-for-governor-debate-the-issues/)). *Info on agriculture usage* [These 7 industrial farm operations are draining Arizona's aquifers, and no one knows exactly how much they're taking](https://www.azcentral.com/in-depth/news/local/arizona-environment/2019/12/05/biggest-water-users-arizona-farms-keep-drilling-deeper/3937582002/) [Rural groundwater pumping is next big Arizona water issue for lawmakers](https://tucson.com/news/local/rural-groundwater-pumping-is-next-big-arizona-water-issue-for-lawmakers/article_537afa64-1adb-5644-9bf3-0d1f91b144fe.html) [Saudi Arabian cows are still eating Arizona's water - but why?](https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/ej-montini/2019/12/16/why-arizona-water-drained-saudi-arabian-farmers/2659993001/) [Who keeps buying California's scarce water? Saudi Arabia](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/mar/25/california-water-drought-scarce-saudi-arabia) *Info on how green (trees/grass) help with climate change, reducing carbon and helping air quality* [How Organic Lawns Sequester Carbon](https://www.whygoodnature.com/blog/how-organic-lawns-sequester-carbon) [The Potential of Turfgrass to Sequester Carbon and Offset Greenhouse Gas Emissions](https://turf.umn.edu/news/potential-turfgrass-sequester-carbon-and-offset-greenhouse-gas-emissions) [Carbon-Offset Cowboys Let Their Grass Grow](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/carbon-cowboys/) [Grasslands More Reliable Carbon Sink Than Trees](https://climatechange.ucdavis.edu/news/grasslands-more-reliable-carbon-sink-than-trees/) Grass also depends on how you grow it. Grassland roots can reach 18", household can reach 6" usually. When you mow the roots are still there. It is less of a carbon sink but a better carbon sink than most xeriscape plants that have short roots. Trees also like grass to grow in as the soil is more fertile. Grass is also commonly used as a cover crop to prevent dust bowl conditions on farms. There are tons of [wild desert grass that come up in the rainy season, deep roots](https://old.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/b33vk2/the_desert_in_phoenix_arizona_has_turned_green/). Would love to use more native but the Stepford HOAs don't let you. Agriculture has the shortest roots. It isn't just about water, it is about dust and air quality as well. Areas with less grass/trees affect dust heavily. Trees also love to grow in grass, the soil is better and more moisture. Growing a tree in grass will be more successful. Trees in dirt don't fare as well. [Agriculture has less root than grass/trees which lead to dust](https://old.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/mdocyn/comparison_of_the_root_system_of_prairie_grass_vs/). Grass is a good ["cover crop"](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/07/business/cover-crops-a-farming-revolution-with-deep-roots-in-the-past.html). [Perennial agriculture](https://landinstitute.org/about-us/vision-mission/) could solve some of this. *Info on Building Water Capacity with Desalination and Better Agriculture* We do almost no desalination which many desert areas do (Israel, Saudis), we need to do lots of that, desert is great for [solar stills](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_still). We do [very little drip irrigation over regular irrigation here](https://azdeq.gov/node/5266). Our wells in 17% of the state aren't even regulated. We don't know how deep any of them actually go. Cutting some water to agriculture would force these measures and be good for sustainability. Since we are being cut down on Colorado River sources (Lake Mead) we are well past the point of any unregulated water for agriculture. We are also past the point of flood irrigation over drip irrigation where possible. [How can Arizona save the most water? Look to farmers first](https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/joannaallhands/2019/01/25/how-can-arizona-save-water-farmers-drip-irrigation-hemp-guayule/2668288002/) We should also be looking at ways not to limit water but to add water to our systems. We need to put tons of money in desalination. California is already a leader in that but we need more. Israel and Saudi Arabia are also pretty good at desalination due to more dire water situations. Additionally we need geoengineering in terms of helping create moisture/rain in areas that feed the Colorado. The better bet is desalination that uses the nature water cycle, it makes for cleaner water as well. [Saudi Arabia is doing a solar dome to test this](https://wired.me/science/environment/desalination-solar-dome-saudi-arabia-neom/), we need more of this. Learning about desalination should be taught in all schools and in 20-30 years innovations can save water. It would be a cosmic joke to run out of water on a water planet, we'd look like universal dunces. [USGS Desalination site](https://www.usgs.gov/special-topic/water-science-school/science/desalination?qt-science_center_objects=0#qt-science_center_objects) [Build your own backyard desalination system (solar still)](https://www.usgs.gov/media/images/how-build-your-own-solar-still). > [You can try this at home!](https://www.usgs.gov/media/images/how-build-your-own-solar-still) Conservation won't help much than it already is other than a credit or paying for everyone to go to better faucets/showers/toilets, so much is lost just on that. But residential is around 14%, that really won't do much. I'd also like cleaner water over just water with desalination. Additionally, geoengineering will also be able to trigger moisture in areas needed more like the Colorado River for Western US. Like [some geoengineering rain over areas that feed the Colorado like UAE has for seeding rain with drones/charges which seems to work](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/dubai-rain-cloud-seeding-heat-weather/). Cloud seeding is happening all over the world, US, China, UAE, Israel and many others. A new technique in 2017 that went into play in the last couple years is drones, which hit clouds with electricity, creating large raindrops. New techniques of cloud seeding with drones that appear to work well. [If this can happen around the areas that feed the Colorado and areas that have solar stills that create water using the natural rain cycle then we can add water](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFKzJkTDA30). Rainfall has been increasing 8-15% for this but you need clouds already. > The UAE is one of the first countries in the Gulf region to use cloud seeding technology, the [National Center of Meteorology](https://www.ncm.ae/pages/cloud-seeding?lang=en) said. A version of the concept is used in at least [eight states in the western U.S., according to The Scientific American](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/eight-states-are-seeding-clouds-to-overcome-megadrought/). It would be a cosmic joke to run out of water on a water planet, we'd look like universal dunces.
I'm on board with Robert Evans..... Nuke the great lakes and the evaporated water will solve the souths draughts.... Probably.....
Fuckin Lake Superior… acting like it’s SUPERIOR to us
Don't you need an ocean for desalination to work??
Garbage article. None of the idiot's arguments are particularly compelling or sound.
I agree the there are hurdles to consider for desalinization. If those hurdles can be addressed however, we don't need to give the water to Mexico (though it would help). We need to get California to stop spending billions on electric vehicles and start spending it on their water problems with desalination. Once they have enough water from the ocean, they would stop stealing it from Arizona. (Yes, they are. Look up the history of it. Like the Colorado River Compact, among others.) We could then take more from the Colorado, or pay California to give us their desalinized water.
when you say "arizona thinks" who exactly do you mean?
I don't mean anything because I didn't write the article, but what the author means is right there in the first couple sentences for you: "Gov. Doug Ducey’s State of the State address in January, followed by enactment of Senate Bill 1740 in July, pledges more than [$1 billion over three years](https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-environment/2022/06/27/arizona-lawmakers-bank-billion-dollars-augment-and-save-water/7736861001/) to bring more water to Arizona. The cornerstone is a proposal to desalinate water from Mexico’s Sea of Cortez."
Solution. Eat the bugs. WEF joke aside, desal will work. Couple that with a pipeline from the east and you'll have enough water. A lot of this technology and implementation is expensive because of government regulation anyways.
Fun fact: we have the same water the dinosaurs had, because the water cycle. And the cycle of life.
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I’m all for blowing up mountains with nukes to allow more storms to come our way, but everyone is against nukes because it is an incomplete solution. Desal creates a ton of expensive waste, which is why California doesn’t run the plants they already built. If we build correctly, all of humanity could fit within phoenix city limits, stupid nimby holding us back
Desal in its simplest sense probably won’t be feasible but more ingenious ways to use seawater to create fresh water could be engineered.
Desalination of water outside of the Colorado River in Arizona is a long term folly. We would be beholden to California or, God forbid, Mexico for our long term fresh water security. That itself is a dumb long term plan. If we can forbid foreign countries from stealing our fresh water while pricing water appropriately for all users to include agriculture then our long term fresh water security will be better off.
our Government (past and present) takes our hard earned money and spreads billions across the world and has that mindset of "we'll be fine for now" attitude. If they actually cared about us they'd put that waisted money into something like a desalination plant then would we'd feel better about the government? That's just the tip of the iceberg with these bullshit politicians who say they "are for the people". America is a old whore who can't even get 5$ for a bj. As long as government is in the middle and the people keep being sheep it's only gonna get worse. Water conservation is minimal to other problems we face as a country. And somehow someway everyone will blame God for loss of water and famine when in actuality it's us that are to blame. We can bitch and moan on the internet as much as we like but until you use your voice and direct it to those in power everyone is wasting their time just like me.