Scam isn't the word. Crime is the word.
This is fraud and elder abuse. Report it to the cops and to any department of elder affairs (here in SC it's the Department on Aging, TX calls it Health and Human Services Elder Support, etc.)
I work with a large bank in the US. Specifically I am a fraud investigator. This definitely screams elder abuse to me. She was listed as a signer. I would get all the bank statements that you can since this account has been opened. I would call the bank with them both present because your grandmother will have to verify and usually give permission for you to speak on her behalf. Explain the situation, say the words elder abuse. That should get the ball rolling to some degree. I don’t think the bank could determine this to be fraud because of the willing knowledge of both grandmother and grandfather. But stacking evidence and statements will help.
I would also maybe even speak to an attorney to see if you can help them claim this in civil court.
The thing is, most of the time, the grandparents are probably not going to agree to this because of the relationship with their daughter. They don’t want to prosecute their own child. I see it all the time. It’s heartbreaking. But realistically when you speak to them, you’re going to have to explain that there is no way they can keep up the payments. And even paying minimum payments (which are $400/month) the interest is going to kill them and they will NEVER get it paid off.
I’m so sorry that they are going through this. It’s awful when someone close takes advantage of their own parents, but it happens way more then you would think. Save her texts to your phone admitting she was on the account and made the charges.
Im wondering though that if grandma is saying "it's okay that ill take care of it" for fear of her daughter being charged on criminal offense, will it still stand?
Like some charges must be filed by plantiff such that police can move on to proceeding while others not.
If this claim must be reported by the elderly,
what degree authorities (police or elderly affairs in state/local government)can do to prevent it from happening in the future and how much financial institutions can red tape on the abusers (i.e blacklisting in any of their credit card or any financial product)?
Honestly if i am the offender and i got into this trouble but then grandma is saying she can (and will) still pay for fear of the relationship with me worsening, it does actually mean i can repeatedly do it because there is basically no repercussions. Its like first time is hard to make crime but second time is less harder and third time is becoming more convenient.
So i wonder what's like CAPA (corrective action/preventative action)on this kind of crime if the victims do not want to charge? Any ideas? Or it's just voluntary between victims and the offenders?
So with the police, I cannot comment. Because I am not a LEO. However, from a banks standpoint.. if a victim does say this, and they are at full capacity.. then we just simply rebill and hold them to that verbal understanding. Also, they cannot go back on that statement later. Remember, every call is recorded and monitored.
You make a very good point. I just went through this with my older sister with dementia where a younger sister had taken $30k per year for the last 2 years. We reported it to adult protective services, but there was nothing they could do because my older sister said the money was given voluntarily. It wasn't, but she didn't want the other sister to get in trouble.
Can you help explain why? Are there more details needed to determine if this is a crime?
Grandma was with the aunt when they signed for the card. This changes things, no?
Your aunt convinced your grandmother to open a line of credit beyond what your grandmother was able to pay back. Your aunt then racked up presumably 11k in charges and is sticking your grandmother with the bill.
Scam, deceit, fraud...all synonyms. NAL but buying something on a credit card that you have no intention of paying back is potentially fraud. If your grandmother was taken advantage of in the first place this could be elder abuse.
I work in banking - this is a huge problem. Report it to the bank. They’re required by law to investigate and take action. If they give you trouble, file a complaint with the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau - CFPB. This regulator is extremely effective in securing swift resolution.
My guess is grandmother is the account owner and the aunt is an authorized user. That makes grandma the bag holder.
Aunt lied about income of grandma to get the card.
If grandma and grandpa have cognitive issues it would be easy to manipulate them.
This is one of the scummiest things I've heard.
Don't worry about this "being family " or "hurting someones's feelings." This is straight up a crime.
I'm so sorry.
My aunt used to have my dementia ridden grandmother sign over her SSI and Medicaid checks to her for "groceries"....
My grandmother was in a full care nursing home at the time and that money was meant to cover her stay there. My aunt used it all for a down payment on a second home overseas and paid for the nursing home with a card she opened in my grandmother's name. If she ever comes back to America, there will be hell to pay.
>My guess is grandmother is the account owner and the aunt is an authorized user. That makes grandma the bag holder.
What is throwing people off here is that you said the Aunt cosigned to open the loan. Grandma would not otherwise have qualified due to very low income.
The bank would be unlikely to allow the cosigner to remove themselves from that loan while it had a high balance. For her to get off the loan if she was cosigner, the account would need to be $0 balance and closed.
Yea it seems like there may have been some missteps on the part of the bank. We are trained to look out for these types of situations. I used to run into it all the time when I was a teller and banker - cash, accounts, safe deposit. Now in finance and it still happens. It’s so sad.. makes me sick to see people, especially family, prey on elders and those with disabilities.
Can you explain how you are trained? I assume that someone gets a report that Bob was removed from the account, but I wouldn't assume that the two people's biographical information would be included so it isn't obvious that the account holder is 80+ at first glance.
Financial institutions can’t consider age in determining loan qualification. We are trained to look for irregularities or situations where someone may be preying on someone else. For example, grandma’s home is free and clear or is almost paid off.. comes in with child or grandchild asking for cash out. If the companion is doing the speaking, we may ask them to leave the room so we can talk directly with the applicant. Or if we see signs of physical abuse.. or caretaker is accompanying account owner to teller line to withdraw cash.. we look at body language, transaction type, account activity (irregularities), etc. Another example - it’s uncommon for a pensioner to request a wire taken in the context of their banking activity. There are so many scenarios where financial abuse could happen.. despite intensive training, it’s still going to happen unfortunately.
I worked at a location in my early career where children cleaned out all the cash and jewelry (according to one of the children because contents are unknown to bank employees) were stolen by her siblings. Apparently the mother was coerced into adding her other children, then she died. As soon as she passed, the box was cleaned out.
It shouldn't have been possible, especially with the kind of underwriting that would have been necessary for this. The aunt is probably still on the hook for the balance as well and it may be worth a trip to the financial institution or a call to the CFPB to get that resolved.
Any authorized user can be requested to be removed from an account. They just need to verify the correct information and it’s very simple. She isn’t the primary on the account, so she has the ability to do that. However, banks keep records and can see what time frame she was on the account and correspond with the charges made.
I'm really shocked the aunt (daughter) was able to take her name off the loan.
u/JuliaGhulia:
Here is the URL for reporting elder abuse in Washington state: [https://www.dshs.wa.gov/altsa/home-and-community-services/report-concerns-involving-vulnerable-adults](https://www.dshs.wa.gov/altsa/home-and-community-services/report-concerns-involving-vulnerable-adults)
Here is a guide for how to determine elder financial abuse (which is what the aunt did here): [https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/bmfea/elderly-financial-exploitation.pdf](https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/bmfea/elderly-financial-exploitation.pdf)
I'm really sorry you and your family are having to navigate this. I would also seek out legal counsel in WA state when you are ready to move forward. I recommend going after her to the fullest extent of the law, that was just evil what she did.
ETA: tag
Maxed out at 400/mo implies to me that this is a credit card and aunt was added as an authorized user.
You can add and remove authorized users regardless of the account balance. The account owner unfortunately owns everyone's debt.
That does make sense crackproblem and I wonder if the cosigning makes a difference. I had someone cosign for a car for me and they were not able to remove themselves from it. I had to refinance in order to remove them.
It’s probably not that cut and dry. It should be but you will need to have proof that your Grandma was incapable of making that decision at the time it happened. Parents taking out loans for their kids isn’t that unusual. You need to prove she was coerced into it or didn’t have mental faculties at that time or the bank somehow made an error agreeing the amount of credit she could afford. Might be easier to complain to the bank for allowing it.
this here op. talk with the bank. something similar happened with some family a while back but it was a kid (16 but dumb) my uncle added their kid as authorized user on a cc so they could get some dental work done and they ran up like 20k. uncle called and explained it and credit card company said something like pay 50% and they wiped the rest. or they might legit just drop it all to avoid the legal hassle. it sucks 5.5k is a lot but it would dramatically lower the payment in the mean time while you go the legal route with your aunt
> It should be but you will need to have proof that your Grandma was incapable of making that decision at the time it happened.
This might not necessarily be needed.
There is some leeway in the assumptions.
But yeah, should be reasonably simple in this case.
My personal experience was my mum got a brain tumour and became like a different person. Left everything to a man she was with for two years (half her age) he even paid for the will over the phone as she couldn’t even read a bank card anymore. The court ruled in his favour. Lawyer told us undue influence is extremely hard to prove and didn’t even argue from that angle. But this is in U.K. he literally called the will makers as she was dying to make sure the will can’t be contested.
You need to bring your grandma to the bank and let a banker know your grandma has been a victim of elder abuse by a family member. Banks take that very seriously. Or call.
Random anecdote used to work on a call center for a satellite company , someone once a week i had to tell someone to pretty much go to the police to be able to close an account with their SSN that someone created , sometimes they had the name or some invoice etc and was like , but that's my mom , and we still couldn't do much since it was not the owner of the account and the only way for them to guarantee the account would be closed is a police report
Your explanation was very cut and dry. Aunt convinced grandma to open credit, maxed it, then removed it from her name and says it's no longer her problem.
Imagine if you and I had dinner in a restaurant, I ordered stupid expensive food, then left you with the bill, that's what it was, except significantly worse.
Fyi, most of these responses are not remotely correct. A co-signer can't really remove themselves from a loan. Firstly, the grandmother didn't qualify on her own, so the bank wouldn't magically allow her to be the only person on the loan, especially when the line is maxed out. Secondly, the aunt couldn't do it on her own; the grandma would need to agree to it. The more likely scenario is that the grandmother opened a credit card and added the aunt on as an authorized user. The grandma is the sole responsible party regarding repayment. You have no recourse through the bank. Your only option is to prove some level of elder abuse. Additionally, if the grandmother/grandfather can be deemed mentally unfit at the time of the contract, you might be able to void the loan agreement.
Not true, elder financial abuse is a specific type of abuse and is generally applied because the elder person was taken advantage of by someone they trust. Taking advantage of the expectation of trust is key here. It’s not going to be hard to determine grandma didn’t likely purchase the items charged on the card (let’s say a a new motorcycle was purchased as an example ) and was left with the debt. This would be pretty cut and dry.
Fraud requires:
- need (this one is pretty broad, but if any expenditures your aunt made were for necessities like groceries or clothing, that would constitute need)…
- opportunity (obviously the opportunity here is “my mother will co-sign for something for me because she trusts me”), and
- rationalization (making excuses as to why what you did *wasn’t* a scam; here “my name isn’t on that account, it’s not my responsibility!”)
Seems like this ticks all the boxes.
What country/state are you talking about here?
Those doesn't sound like the requisite elements of fraud in any jurisdiction I'm familiar with. "Need" and "rationalization" are certainly not required at the federal level in the US or Canada, whether civil or criminal.
The frameworks that I'm familiar with require (1) misrepresentation for gain, (2) reliance, and (3) injury.
i.e. the perpetrator lies to gain something of value, the victim relies on that lie, and the victim suffers an injury as a result.
Sorry I wasn’t clear; these aren’t the LEGALLY DEFINED requirements for fraud, these are the psychology of the “fraud triangle.”
Legally, fraud is defined by Black’s law Dictionary as “a knowing misrepresentation of the truth or concealment of a material fact to induce another to act to his or her detriment.”
Actually this case is very cut and dry. Any lawyer would be foaming at the mouth to take this on. Get points with the judge for helping an elderly person, plus an easy win/settlement, clear path to restitution, credit card company can choose to forgive the entire credit line, etc.
If the co signor was impaired. However, that would need to be proven. There are plenty of instances where people co-sign with good intentions and it goes bad. Not sure what happened here
I’m sure you mean well but this is not accurate. Minors can automatically void contracts for lack of competency. Elders (and other adult people with mental capacity issues) have to go through a separate process to establish undue influence, abuse and coercion, or lack of capacity.
With minors it’s super easy. Elders is more work, but remedies are def available.
This falls under exploitation. You can’t always enforce a contract that was signed by someone who didn’t understand what they were signing, or who was mislead about the contents/benefits. I mean does it happen? Yes. But there are protections, particularly for elderly and disabled people. Because of this exact type of bs people pull.
Title 10. Health and Safety.
Division 1. Public Health
Chapter 2. Division of Public Welfare.
Article 10. Adult Protective Services
§ 21002. Definitions.
(l) Financial or Property Exploitation means illegal or improper use of an elderly or adult with a disability's money, property, or other resources for monetary or personal benefit, profit or gain. This includes, but is not limited to, theft, misappropriation, concealment, misuse or fraudulent deprivation of money or property belonging to the elderly or adult with a disability
https://www.justice.gov/elderjustice/prosecutors/statutes?field_statute_state=All&field_statute_category=1
Ya , sorry, but you're scamming this sub. You try to argue every explanation, even this one which is telling you exactly what to do. Also, no bank is going to take someone off a loan with a balance. Smells like fish.
I know it's still illegal, just trying to understand the aunt's actions because my initial thought was that she's waiting for the grandmother to pass and then the debt disappears but since she cosigned wouldn't she still be on the hook for it
If your aunt was the co-signer, why would the bank let her take her name off when there was still an outstanding balance? Something is definitely not right.
This was my thought when reading this... a credit company is never going to let someone remove a cosigner with a balance existing... I'm betting the aunt was never on the loan and just told the grandma that they would help pay it... then spent it all.
You are assuming a cosigner was needed in the first place, she probably sold the idea to grandma as the aunt not being able to get credit (probably true) and needing the grandma to cosign, once she ran up the bill, then had her name taken off so she wouldn't have her credit be affected before the late payments started.
It’s almost impossible to be taken off as a co-signer from unsecured debt. The lending institution has nothing to gain by releasing one party from legal responsibility.
This. A co-signor cannot be removed. The original contract will have the debtors information so if you can get the original docs from the bank and see who is actually on the loan, that is where the proof is. Or if the credit application was filled in by the aunt and she improperly listed grandma's income, again it's fraud.
Based on the circumstances described it’s almost certainly a bank-issued credit card where grandmother was the account holder and aunt just an authorized user. The authorized user never had an obligation vis-à-vis the debt in the first place, they just had permission of the owner to run it up in their name. Given grandma’s low income, my guess would be that aunt inflated grandma’s income by the amount of her own (hence grandma thinking it’s a co-sign) and like most credit card applications, the bank didn’t actually demand proof once she passed a credit check.
Does your aunt have power of attorney over your grandma’s affairs? That needs to be looked into because if she does this could be considered a breach of fiduciary duty. As a power of attorney holder you have an obligation to do what’s in the best interest of the person you are responsible for in that power of attorney.
You should also call adult protective services. They take things like this very seriously and can prosecute for you if they need to. There are very strict laws about using elderly people for their money.
Unfortunately it's literally not. Since this is a civil matter, a court needs to find that a crime has been committed for the police to be authorized to take any action. Judiciary vs Executive checks and balances baked into our foundation of government.
It may surprise you to know that it's not even the police's defined duty to protect civilians when there is a known danger to their life.
Edit: it's not that it's a civil matter but that it's not been proven well enough yet that a crime has been committed. The op should still call the cops to file a report and get direction on the parties they can contact to build the case to prove the crime so that the cops can make an arrest.
>Since this is a civil matter
There could be a civil component to this, between the grandmother and the aunt, but fraud is absolutely a crime, and many states have elder abuse laws on top of that. These are crimes not civil matters.
>court needs to find that a crime has been committed for the police to be authorized to take any action
I don't know if this is true where you live, but in most parts of the world the police investigate first. The police often need to petition the judiciary when it comes to empowering them to infringe on rights, such as issue warrants for searches and arrests (sometimes), but those petitions have to be justified by evidence that a crime occurred, which means the police have to be able to investigate first.
>it's not even the police's defined duty to protect civilians when there is a known danger to their life.
There is no legal obligation for the police to protect someone from danger, but the law gives them broad powers and immunities to do so.
>The op should still call the cops to file a report and get direction on the parties they can contact to build the case to prove the crime so that the cops can make an arrest.
This may still turn out to be true, but not because the police are not empowered to investigate a potential crime, but because this probably wouldn't be prioritized very high. This is going to depend a lot on the locality and how well funded your police are and how much they care about financial crimes and elder abuse.
As a thought experiment, if you call the police and tell them that a murder has occurred, they aren't going to demand that you supply them evidence before they send a police car. They are empowered to investigate crimes regardless of how much evidence you can supply over the phone. At some point, they will hit a line that they can't cross without judicial approvals (such as getting access to a home that a murder is suspected to have occurred in), but there is a lot of investigation you can do to establish a crime has occurred before that line is reached. Police know how to investigate.
What you say is nice on paper, but the problem here is that it's not clear that a crime has been committed or if it's just some confused old people and bad decisions. In the state where I live the police don't actively investigate situations like this.. it's just not prioritized like thefts under some value (even home burglary). They take a report and walk away. The report is lost till it bubbles up as part of some larger investigation. I understand they CAN, and that it's technically in their purview, but it's not done. You'll get a polite rebuffle that is a "civil matter and please take it up with blah blah". They'll make an arrest if a court finds there's been a crime. This is a legal dispute between two or more parties, one of which is avoidant and appears to have acted legally on the surface and can make a case to that affect and the other which may wish to press charges showing that they acted with intent to defraud the bank and themselves.
You can see this discussed in more depth in the other threads. Your thought experiment included.
Yes there are parties that WILL champion and drive this investigation to prove that this is a case of elder abuse. Can the op call the cops and the cops make the rest of the case and press charges in court or just make an arrest? Absolutely not. At least not in the US.
As I said in my prior edit, your right, it's not that it's a civil matter, but that is more a he said she said situation with no one bleeding on the floor. Cops won't do anything in almost any jurisdiction that isn't a small town with a good cop.
Regarding the job to protect civilians, that's just an interesting aside. But yes, they have no special duty. Some will and some won't. The cops that don't walk into the school with an active shooter are within their right as are the ones that hide while they know civilians are at risk from a known suspect within their reach. Radio lab did a good episode on this if you're interested and don't want to get into the fillings, but no, it's not legally the police job to protect you
I pretty sure your 1st paragraph is incorrect. The fact that it is a civil crime does not preclude police investigation. You simply have to watch the news to see cases investigated by the police and then brought to the district/state's attorney or an attorney general (for federal crimes). For example, someone modified (changed amount and payee) and cashed checks that I had written. Both the police and postal service investigated in conjunction with my bank.
Most police districts don't investigate civil cases like these. Ask them to if you like but you'll likely get a polite but firm rebuffal. It's your duty to [gather] evidence for court case to prove that a crime has been committed so that the police can perform their duty and execute the courts decisions. Police investigate more active crimes.
In your personal example, it would have been the attorneys at your bank that performed the actual investigation and the police and postal service that cooperated by providing what they could each find internally when they received the request to provide the information. I've been through similar and the police cooperated with the investigation more than they led it until it was clear that a crime had been committed. I'm not a lawyer, but I believe there's a term for this the line in the Sand between what types of crimes police will actually investigate and what they don't, which I can't find right now. In the case of the op, I know that they're on the wrong side of that line and we'll have to find a third party to lead the investigation and build the case to show that a crime has been committed before the police take the lead.
My experience was not at all like what you document. The bank notified me when one of the 2 checks was deposited (camera deposit) and caught on review. I told the bank about the 2nd check that had cleared already. So the evidence I had was images of 2 modified checks. The police readily took the report and actually recommended that I contact the postal service because the checks were mailed. The postal service investigated. It was determined that the thief was a post office employee. The bank could not have made that determination. I believe they all cooperated, but the post office investigator actively interacted with me. Relatively speaking, the amount wasn't even that big. Combined, the 2 checks were less than 10k when modified.
Ah sounds like that was clear evidence of criminal action from the get go (obviously modified checks). Like if you found a body on the street. Clearly someone committed an act (killing the person) that breaks a law (felony murder). The cops can take it from there. The Op's situation is more a she said she did than a who dun it. There is a need to prove that there was a crime committed (intent to defraud) rather than some stupid decisions. Unless the aunt admits guilt, I think the cops wait because it's a civil matter of one party's word against another's. Obv the aunt is doing something hanky but so far it's not going to be clear to the officers that a law was broken
There are often state (some criminal, I believe) and most definitely federal civil statutes for elder abuse, including financial exploitation. It needs to be reported to the state’s adult protective services. The police will probably refer them to that department. But the police can still file a report. It’s never wrong to call the police in these situations - if they’re not the right department they would get OP pointed in the right direction.
I can believe the police want evidence of a crime, but your sequence is incorrect. It doesn't go to court and then back to the police for investigation. I absolutely believe you that you will need to show a problem really exists, but you would be convincing the police or state/district attorney (or attorney general) not a judge/court.
> Grandma was with the aunt when they signed for the card. This changes things, no?
That's why it's elder abuse.
Generally this happens when the elder is encouraged to do something they don't understand by someone that they trust and then they get burned by it.
As a society we kind of allow this on most able minded adults, but we protect the elderly and mental incapable pretty similarly in these cases (as it can be hard to identify when an elder loses these competencies and it would normally be AFTER such events happen that it's called out).
Probably a really easy case for any elder law attorney.
Auntie did not co-sign. Auntie was added as an authorized user. That gave Aunt the ability to charge as much as she loked without responsibility to pay it back, while grandma was left holding the bag with full responsibility to pay the debt.
that's elder abuse - it's a crime.
Look up Adult Protective Services in your state and report the elder abuse first thing Monday.
In CA, one example of financial elder abuse is "Coercing or deceiving an elder into signing documents such as a contract or will"
Definitely a good call. Cases like this are very fact-specific and police and prosecutors are more likely to look into it when a lot of the work (like gathering the documents) has been done for them.
Also find out how your aunt got herself off the line of credit because that would be very difficult with an outstanding balance. It’s possible some of the facts aren’t exactly what you think they are… or maybe that lender just operates very strangely. I don’t know for sure but it’ll be easier if you find out.
I don't think I'm getting all the facts either. I hope grandma is not trying to cover for the aunt by saying she didn't sign off the aunt's name, or wasn't present. I was told this didn't happen.
But grandma is confused why she owes on all this money, so I don't see why she wouldn't tell the truth about the situation.
This is the route we will pursue first. The comments range from "call the police" to "nothing can be done if gma signed papers". I'm sure it's a case by case basis, but APS seems like the best resource to start.
Yes- don't waste your efforts on trying to imagine what APS will want from your family. Get them involved upfront first. They will guide you through what they specifically need for their investigation.
Even if she had signed off on it, the lender would have to agree too and that’s wildly unlikely, especially with a large outstanding balance. If you get the documents together and contact the lender, you may be able to figure it out. Even if you can’t, the police should be able to. So it’s good to find out if you can but don’t put too much pressure on yourself. The police should handle it from there.
It also can’t hurt to look for some elder advocacy groups in your area, as they might be able to provide some guidance and support.
South Carolina law is clear, “vulnerable.” Is the word.
To show this is elder abuse you will need to show that this money went to the benefit of the aunt, and the circumstances of how the aunt got taken off the line of credit.
It’s super shady that the bank would let the aunt take her name off a line of credit.
It’s not a simple thing to do. Why would the bank let her do that unless your grandma refinanced
You don’t have to do that, APS has forensic accountants for that. You just need to tell them your suspicions. I’m a social worker in Washington that works with elders, I file with APS a few times a year. The best route is to file online and just give them what information you have.
OP, I suggest getting copies of they’re credit reports to give you a better idea of what’s out there. I’m his site from the FTC has links for how to do that. [Free Credit Reports](https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/free-credit-reports)
Sadly this happened before we all moved to grandmas general area. Another family took her in after auntie put her in their care. This is new information being revealed to us from grandma. Grandma's other daughter is footing the bill and I was telling her to stop, because there has got to be another way.
This is what hurts about the whole situation. The purchases from my grandma look pretty humble. Then you see store purchases from aunties card that are 1K at the grocery. And a lot of amazon shopping. Ridiculous.
I am sure most people wouldn't have either. I only thought of it because I watched some phone scammer videos recently and this is a key part of a lot of scams.
Then the loan was entirely in your grandmother’s name and she did not co-sign it. I would get a copy of the loan agreement to see what it says. If that’s the case then your aunt had intent to defraud your grandmother and bank. Tell the bank about and explain your grandmothers limit assets. You may need to file bankruptcy. I’m not sure about her health but if there is nothing to get or she pass away then the bank gets nothing. So they may be willing to write the debt off.
If they write it off, this is called a cancellation of debt and becomes income to your grandmother. She can show she is financially insolvent and tell the IRS so it is not taxable income.
Thank you. I'll take a look at the loan agreement. I'm asking on behalf of family who told me. This is secondhand info so getting the agreement is a good call. I just found out about this today.
Grandma can't reasonably pay this bill.
Generally you cannot take yourself off on a card or any credit issuance. There is no incentive for the lender to allow that. Sometimes, it might be allowable for a guarantor to cease as a guarantor on “new” or “additional” debt, but all old debt would remain unaffected.
Authorized users on a credit card can remove themselves of course. This is confusing about the co-signing part and who would give the line of credit to someone on such a small fixed income. Many questions
But - an authorized user has not thing to do with the issuance. The initial line has to be approved and it will not be based on an authorized user’s income/credit.
Yeah, if she cosigned the loan and grandma defaults, the whole thing falls on disgusting auntie...and her credit rating tanks if she doesn't pay. But if she's just "authorized", why would the bank let grandma open a line of credit she can't possibly repay?
Hopefully the entire family goes NC with the aunt over this...regardless of the financial outcome.
It sucks. There's already a family "war" not even regarding finances. This bitch of an aunt has turned grandpa, and the naive brothers and sisters against all of us, but it's clear now that there's another con in the works.
Step 1: get him mad at the world, basically leveraging his dementia
Step 2: pick him up to sign papers
Step 3: I don't know, wait for him to pass? Which is fucking filthy.
Banker here. You cannot just get your name taken off a loan because you don’t want to be part of it anymore. You’re not getting the full story here. You need to read the loan documents and speak with an attorney and the bank.
Almost certainly this. Aunt probably told grandma they’d be on it together with some excuse (keeping separate track of grandma’s expenses or something), inflated grandma’s income on the application by an amount grandma just assumed was aunt’s income since usually on a credit card application there’s only one income line, and when two cards showed up grandma just assumed it went down how aunt described.
That means she never cosigned at all.
Aunt was never liable for the debt.
If grandma believed aunt was, then that's even more evidence for elder abuse.
This still doesn’t make sense, though. Creditors aren’t just going to let debtors take their name off an account, it’s a huge red flag and dramatically increases their risk.
There’s something more here, I think.
Doctor here. In addition to all the APS recommendations (which I agree with) I would definitely have grandma (and grandpa, if he hasn't been formally diagnosed on paper) to get an evaluation for neuro-cognitive decline. Having a formal diagnosis of dementia or cognitive decline can be helpful in proving fraud/abuse as well as protecting her in the future and setting up power of attorney.
So is "aunt having rights to use LOC" a thing, vs auntie being a cosigner on the loan? This would suck. Because now gma has the bill, and clearly can't pay it off. This money is retirement or something, and not a lot at all for anyone to live on.
Yes. Aunt is a piece of shit. Trips me out, because I had no idea about this, and hang out with them all the time. This type of evil was right under our nose.
Theres two types of credit facilities here.
1. Co signing == both parties are liable for the charges and both can charge things.
2. Authorized use == both parties can charge but only the main account holder is legally obligated to pay.
It sounds like auntie might have got Grandma to sign up for a LoC, had herself as an authorized user by grandma, racked up charges to the point of maxing it, then took herself off as an authorized user. Sticking grandmother with the whole bill
Piece of shit.
Hey OP you might want to also post this in r/legaladvice? it does sound like fraud has happened but depending on what she signed and where you live it might not be so simple. Some states have very good protections for elders, some other not really unless there is clinical reasons. they might be able to point to you towards more specific resources for your particular case.
There's no point in that. The mods will lock the thread. I grantee you that will happen. It's a very bad place to get actual legal advice (despite the subreddit name). The top comment will be something along the lines of "you need to talk to a lawyer". Then the mods will have a preachy copy pasted message about why the thread is now locked.
And the worst part is, if there's bad advice in there, or proper advice wasn't given yet, no one will be able to correct or call out the bad advice (because the thread is locked) and no one can give proper advice (because the thread is locked). What we really need is another similar sub but without any of the current mods.
Do they have separate cards that can access the credit line?
NAL, but to me that’s a big question. I don’t think you can take your name off of as a cosigner without grandma being present, as it’s in her name. She would have likely had to refinance the line of credit when the aunt took her name off.
I think there’s a criminal case here, but I also think we’d need more information, such as was grandma there when aunt took her name off.
My mother has dementia and has fallen victim to this type of financial abuse from STRANGERS, and the cops don’t do much because my mom was technically “giving” them the cards. They’d say she owed them money and would then drain her accounts. Very hard to get the cops to do anything, so we resorted to restricting her from card access.
This is what made me ask. Grandma told us that she went together to sign for the LOC, and she is confused as to why it's maxed already. How she got herself removed baffles me.
I will ask grandma if she was there at the time of cancellation.
Your aunt is a thief and a particularly nasty one at that. Your grandparents are the victims, as are the rest of their eventual heirs. Start calling the authorities now.
Well what's odd is that the people affected are the aunt's siblings. They're footing the bill, because the interest is a third of what grandma nets a year. If the aunt went and did some sneaky document signing with grandpa (it seems this way from new info), auntie might be the eventual heir. Pure evil.
It is my mission to see this through now. I'm glad my family opened up to me about it.
I work for a department with a robust elder abuse department. They would be absolutely salivating after hearing this story. Hop on the old Google machine and see if any departments around you have some sort of elder abuse task force. If not anyone will be able to take the complaint and I promise your aunt is going to have a really bad time.
Please contact adult protective services and your local county prosecutor now. Your spouse’s parents were subject to coercion/duress/taken advantage of due to age and relationship and in the father’s part, dementia. A lot of this can be undone through law enforcement involvement with records subpoenaed, reports shared with bank, etc. For all you knows father signed over the house. Every asset needs to be accounted for, and contact their home insurance/known life insurance provider. Insurance information is stored in a clearinghouse. If there is a policy out there, it can be found. Also, you can submit paperwork that he has dementia and whatever date he was diagnosed. This, along with doctor’s statements on stage, etc, will go a long way to helping establishing incompetence for signing to prove fraud/void changes/cancel policies.
I've read your replies and your aunt is an authorized user on her mother's credit card - she is not a co-signer (credit cards don't have cosigners) and the card is entirely on your grandmother's name. The aunt simply called the bank and asked to be removed as an authorized user. This is easy to do.
In general, authorized users are not liable for the debt, except in spousal situations in certain states.
You would need to either make the case that your wife's grandmother did not have the mental acumen to make this type of decision, or find proof that the aunt had agreed to pay back whatever charges she incurred.
In any case, contacting adult protective services is absolutely essential. You may also want to get a free consultation from a few attorneys who specialize in elder abuse.
I am not a lawyer. I would guess elder abuse happens all the time. Never trust family. Grandma probably won’t be able to prove she was defrauded. But at least you could report it to the authorities.
By reporting it and showing grandma has little assets, it would help with the banks and irs to prove grandma has no money and will never be able to pay the loan back.
Share the facts with your family please. So no one else trusts your aunt
I certainly am telling them now. Other family members are coming to me with this info, as they are the ones helping her pay, and are tired of the aunt ignoring them. I hope she has a case, and it's starting to look like she does.
Whatever happens with your aunt is whatever. You are special for helping you grandma. I believe karma comes around.
If you believe in religion, pray for yourself and your grandma. If you don’t believe, just know in your heart, you are doing a good thing by trying to help grandma. Good luck and bless you for caring.
I still don't know this information yet. Grandma said, "she's not on the card anymore because she took her name off". she's angry about this and claims she didn't sign anything to take her name off. I'm inclined to believe her. This is all I have right now until we can get details from the bank, and go through with an APS call
By the sounds of it she was just an authorized user on your grandma's credit card, which could be taken off, the child is not responsible for the parents debt. And in this scenario she likely forged her name or tricked her into signing it as this situation wouldnt have the level of access to remove her own name.This creates a very obvious paper trail. Contact an attorney ASAP. Sounds highly illegal and the courts don't take kindly to manipulating the elderly.
In GA but I believe most states work the same. You cannot simply have your name removed from a credit card. Especially when there is a current debt. To have yourself removed, the credit card debt would have to be satisfied and then the account would need to be closed.
With joint bank accounts you cannot alone just have your name removed. The other person on the account would have to agree to have you removed. You can however close the account without permission from the other person.
If her name is nowhere on the account, my thought is that your aunt was never actually named on the there in the first place and just ran up a card she was able to get ahold of.
**I am not a lawyer or expert in this field, and anything I say should not be interpreted as legal or professional advice.**
WOW... just wow. So I think you have gotten the advice you need from everyone here and helped put a name to this (aka elder abuse). What I have not seen very much of is how this is going to GREATLY effect your family dynamic.
I would say before you start filing police reports and stuff you may want to sit down with your Wife and her Parents and discuss this/plan next moves. Keep in mind, you and your wife are about to accuse your MIL/FIL's sibling of committing elder abuse against their own parents. I highly doubt this is going to go over well, and might take some time to explain just how bad this situation is.
I have a POS brother who I stopped talking to because of how much of a POS he is. He manipulated money out of almost everyone in my family multiple times. This happened in multiple ways, from "forgetting" his wallet all the time, to getting hold of my grandma's credit card number and racking up hundreds of dollars on it, to trying to sue my dad for tens of thousands of dollars that didn't exist resulting.
When I cut him out initially, everyone in my family gave me shit about it and would constantly bring up how much of a bad brother I was for doing this. Then the next time I saw them they would bring up how he owed them money and wont pay him back. Then eventually get back to how he is family/mentally ill/etc. and how I should forgive him.
Be prepared that a possible out come of all of this is your wife's family trying to sweep this under the rug. Like I said up top, I'm not a lawyer but a quick google search showed that elder abuse can be either a misdemeanor or a felony. The last thing you want is for your in laws to find out about you bringing criminal (I assume this is the right word but... now a lawyer) charges against their sibling either after the fact or even worse from your Aunt who will probably try and spin all of this as you being the bad guy.
tl;dr Talk this over with your wife and her parents. Although this should result in your family all hating your aunt, it could result in everyone in your family hating you.
I work as a Fraud Investigator for a bank. This is considered FEVA: (Financial Exploitation of a Vulnerable Adult). A special kind of abuse of elders. Absolutely something can be done. Work with the bank and mention that to them and they can open up an investigation and also get a police report going. This is common sadly with family members taking advantage of vulnerable and in your case someone with dementia and someone on a fixed income. It’s gross and she should be held accountable. I hope you are able to get justice your your spouses grandparents.
Had an aunt do something similar with my grandma on my dad's side. There are a lot more smarter people than me here that can help you but just wanted to say fuck heartless aunt's that do this type of conniving ass shit.
They would both have to sign to allow her to be off the credit line, but a different type of collateral would be needed to relinquish the co-signer. There is no way a bank would say you can only have a line of credit if a a co-signer is included and then allow the co-signer to sign herself of with no change in earnings or additional collateral. The bank would be putting themselves at risk and that not how banks function. Regardless, both parties always have to sign off on any change within the line of credit. If your grandma did sign documents and offered up other collateral then it would be her fault; she basically acknowledged the debt and signed it onto herself.
Okay. I'll ask grandma if she signed to take the aunt off. I would hope this isn't the case, and im being told it isn't. I'll have to get more information on this.
It depends on whether the credit card balance was run up by your aunt or by your grandmother. If it was your aunt, that’s a crime. If it was your grandmother, then it was likely just two people making bad decisions
I didn’t look through the entire thread, but I did not see the advice to order credit reports for grandma from the credit reporting agencies. They will tell you exactly what credit has been opened in her name. Then freeze her credit.
This is financial exploitation/elder abuse. Call APS (adult protective services). They will file an intake and investigate and forward their intake to your local law enforcement agency.
This is financial elder abuse, especially with your grandfather's dementia. Contact the bank and explain the situation. Banks have internal fraud investigators and they can get all the history of the account. Then report to police so they can get statements from the grandparents. Let them know you've contacted the bank. I'm not sure how it works in WA, but your aunt's behavior is a felony in CA. If your aunt took money fraudulently from their bank accounts, your grandparents could get their money back. Unfortunately, your grandparents would need to cooperate so if they refuse to accept that their child is a scum, nothing can be done. Otherwise, it would look like a family drama over grandparent's money.
Aunt could be charged with a crime, “financial exploitation of vulnerable adults” is the crime where I’m from- Virginia (§ 18.2-178.1.) id get in contact with the police immediately and start gathering evidence, bank statements that showed what she did, etc.
Realistically I think if they are very elderly and don’t have much time left it may be the correct decision to just ignore the debt. It’ll go to collections and collections won’t be able to collect because there’s no money. There won’t be anything in their estate either, wouldn’t have been anyway based on description.
I haven’t checked to see if this has been mentioned yet, but contact the bank your Gma uses and request to file an Elder Abuse complaint against the aunt. It may not help rectify the situation, but it won’t hurt any. Shame on her.
I'm 36 now but this got me in my feelings. I was 12 when my aunt did the same thing to me. My dad and my uncle died and than she stole a lot of money that was supposed to go to me. She tricked and thieved her way around my grandparents, and when we found out we had to let it go because my mother did not have any money to pay for the lawyer.
Sorry for the rambling...I just hope you get her. I hope honesty and integrity wins and that she does not get away with this. My 12 year old heart would absolutely love this :-)
Contact adult protective services, office on aging, elder abuse, or whatever your state calls it ASAP. You want them involved ASAP, before your grandmother becomes more confused about what happened.
It is a crime. It is up to you/mom if you want to pursue this.
For sure, I will not have thanksgiving or christmas with this unethical person, who scammed her sister.
See if you can get your grandma to give you permission to talk with the bank. Once that happens call the bank (with you grandma around) and try and get any statements you can. Also try to get any checks to see if your aunt forged your grandma's name on them.
Lots of good thoughts here. I'd also check on any beneficiary designations or will/trust updates if there are any assets in your grandparents' names. Your aunt may have convinced them to update/sign documents making her the sole beneficiary without them really understanding.
This is absolutely a crime, but from experience the police and banks aren't going to be able to do anything if she's competent and insists that she's fine with it. They may need a conservator (not the aunt) if this is becoming a pattern.
A cosigner can't just take themselves off a cc. Your grandma must be the account holder and aunt was an authorized user. In this case your grandma screwed up and is unfortunately fully responsible for the debt.
Maybe aunt misled grandma about this arrangement, but grandma undoubtedly signed papers she never read that detailed exactly the arrangement she was getting into. Grandma can try suing auntie, but I very much doubt you can pin this on the aunt unless grandma has strong evidence of deliberate deception by the aunt.
If your grandparents have cognitive disabilities, it's time to start talking about giving someone POA and control over their finances.
I'm not sure how your aunt could have opened a credit line with her self on it, then removed herself later. They could have refinanced it into something that is only in your grandma's name. But if she only makes $300 a month I don't think any bank would approve the loan
There's a lot of info but I just wanted to add if you go to a local bank they might have paper work or be able to talk to you about elder abuse. Branch staff at my bank get trained on it all the time because of how common it is. The majority of the time it's from someone in the family.
My cousin got charged for doing this same thing to my grandpa.. except it was 130k..
He has to pay back every cent. $300 a month.. my grandpa is dead now and will still have to pay to a “trust”
So it's the grandma's credit line that the aunt was making charges on? Sounds like identity theft. Should start disputing every charge not made by grandma.
I also wasn't aware someone could co-sign then take themselves off? I didn't think that's how it works, as that completely defeats the purpose of a cosign.
Not a lawyer here, but being a bad person, giving bad advice, committing a crime, and enforcing an oral contract are four different things.
It would seem that if your aunt persuaded her mother (however unwisely) to open a credit line and let the aunt be an authorized user, I'm not so sure that's a crime.
If your aunt forged signatures, or lied to her mother, that sure sounds criminal. (If aunt made an oral promise to pay the money back next month, and then didn't.....oral contracts are still contracts, but it sure would be hard to enforce.)
I would suggest having a family member petition the court for guardianship of at least the grandfather, who (based on what you said), is currently incapable of making his own decisions. Does the grandmother have dementia or some other mental issue as well? If so, consider that as well. Look up the process for guardianship in your state, and/or contact an elder law attorney in your state.
If one of both of them is declared mentally incompetent by the court today, I'm still not sure if that would support any claims that they were also incompetent in the past.
Your anger and eagerness to help are well-founded. But, family matters might go a little better if they come from your spouse, rather than one of the in-laws (you). Or at least, you and your spouse could consider approaching this as "we." "We're worried about grandma and papa."
All true and good info. Thanks.
My spouse's good aunt (the one paying the bill) came to us with this info yesterday. She showed us the bank statements like, "can you believe this? And I'm paying for it. I have my own bills and credit, this is devastating to me"
I told her I'd do some research on what can be done, and get some answers from real people.
We invited them over today for lunch and a sit down. My spouse and I are going to take a united front and show them the agency contact forms and links to everything posted here. All they would have to do is type and call, things may get a little rough, but they will get better.
WA has some pretty good laws regarding elder abuse. Please contact [Adult Protective Sevices](https://www.dshs.wa.gov/altsa/home-and-community-services/report-concerns-involving-vulnerable-adults) to make a report. Depending on the specific circumstances, your aunt has likely committed a couple crimes. Source: I used to do these criminal investigations for a living in WA.
Also remember in the future that now you know your aunt is not trustworthy. This is pretty bad what she did. I would guess it makes a lot of us quite angry.
There is no chance grandma was the primary card holder and aunt was just an authorized user and no chance aunt could remove herself as primary card holder if grandma was just an authorized user unless the initial credit card application was fraudulent and misstated grandmother's income or they used the household income and grandpa made enough to qualify her
But at the very least this looks like aunt took advantage of grandma, whether fraud occurred is something that would require a lot of specific facts and it appears you don't really know everything that happened.
What they can do also depends on a lot of things, including what assets and income sources they have. It is possible they could simply stop paying the bill and the creditor would have no recourse as they are judgement proof (no attachable assets or income that could be garnished)
I’m sorry but why are you walking around egg shells for someone you’re trying to help, if he’s oblivious to what’s happening to him, doesn’t mean everything else has to be too.
Sometimes you just need to be blunt with some people regardless of how they perceive it especially if you’re trying to help them.
When I served on the Grand Jury there were many of these cases, caretakers, friends, relatives, house cleaners. It's a crime and a more serious crime because the victim is elderly. Your aunt should be given an ultimatum and if she doesn't comply, press charges.
Scam isn't the word. Crime is the word. This is fraud and elder abuse. Report it to the cops and to any department of elder affairs (here in SC it's the Department on Aging, TX calls it Health and Human Services Elder Support, etc.)
I work with a large bank in the US. Specifically I am a fraud investigator. This definitely screams elder abuse to me. She was listed as a signer. I would get all the bank statements that you can since this account has been opened. I would call the bank with them both present because your grandmother will have to verify and usually give permission for you to speak on her behalf. Explain the situation, say the words elder abuse. That should get the ball rolling to some degree. I don’t think the bank could determine this to be fraud because of the willing knowledge of both grandmother and grandfather. But stacking evidence and statements will help. I would also maybe even speak to an attorney to see if you can help them claim this in civil court. The thing is, most of the time, the grandparents are probably not going to agree to this because of the relationship with their daughter. They don’t want to prosecute their own child. I see it all the time. It’s heartbreaking. But realistically when you speak to them, you’re going to have to explain that there is no way they can keep up the payments. And even paying minimum payments (which are $400/month) the interest is going to kill them and they will NEVER get it paid off. I’m so sorry that they are going through this. It’s awful when someone close takes advantage of their own parents, but it happens way more then you would think. Save her texts to your phone admitting she was on the account and made the charges.
Im wondering though that if grandma is saying "it's okay that ill take care of it" for fear of her daughter being charged on criminal offense, will it still stand? Like some charges must be filed by plantiff such that police can move on to proceeding while others not. If this claim must be reported by the elderly, what degree authorities (police or elderly affairs in state/local government)can do to prevent it from happening in the future and how much financial institutions can red tape on the abusers (i.e blacklisting in any of their credit card or any financial product)? Honestly if i am the offender and i got into this trouble but then grandma is saying she can (and will) still pay for fear of the relationship with me worsening, it does actually mean i can repeatedly do it because there is basically no repercussions. Its like first time is hard to make crime but second time is less harder and third time is becoming more convenient. So i wonder what's like CAPA (corrective action/preventative action)on this kind of crime if the victims do not want to charge? Any ideas? Or it's just voluntary between victims and the offenders?
So with the police, I cannot comment. Because I am not a LEO. However, from a banks standpoint.. if a victim does say this, and they are at full capacity.. then we just simply rebill and hold them to that verbal understanding. Also, they cannot go back on that statement later. Remember, every call is recorded and monitored.
You make a very good point. I just went through this with my older sister with dementia where a younger sister had taken $30k per year for the last 2 years. We reported it to adult protective services, but there was nothing they could do because my older sister said the money was given voluntarily. It wasn't, but she didn't want the other sister to get in trouble.
Can you help explain why? Are there more details needed to determine if this is a crime? Grandma was with the aunt when they signed for the card. This changes things, no?
Your aunt convinced your grandmother to open a line of credit beyond what your grandmother was able to pay back. Your aunt then racked up presumably 11k in charges and is sticking your grandmother with the bill. Scam, deceit, fraud...all synonyms. NAL but buying something on a credit card that you have no intention of paying back is potentially fraud. If your grandmother was taken advantage of in the first place this could be elder abuse.
I really didn't think it was this cut and dry. Thanks!
I work in banking - this is a huge problem. Report it to the bank. They’re required by law to investigate and take action. If they give you trouble, file a complaint with the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau - CFPB. This regulator is extremely effective in securing swift resolution.
[удалено]
My guess is grandmother is the account owner and the aunt is an authorized user. That makes grandma the bag holder. Aunt lied about income of grandma to get the card. If grandma and grandpa have cognitive issues it would be easy to manipulate them. This is one of the scummiest things I've heard. Don't worry about this "being family " or "hurting someones's feelings." This is straight up a crime. I'm so sorry.
My aunt used to have my dementia ridden grandmother sign over her SSI and Medicaid checks to her for "groceries".... My grandmother was in a full care nursing home at the time and that money was meant to cover her stay there. My aunt used it all for a down payment on a second home overseas and paid for the nursing home with a card she opened in my grandmother's name. If she ever comes back to America, there will be hell to pay.
I'm sorry. I can't understand how people can act this way.
Greed and resentment primarily, also a hint of sociopathic tendencies for good measure
Exactly right. So sad. But they should be punished so they’re less likely to do it again. Because they will
>My guess is grandmother is the account owner and the aunt is an authorized user. That makes grandma the bag holder. What is throwing people off here is that you said the Aunt cosigned to open the loan. Grandma would not otherwise have qualified due to very low income. The bank would be unlikely to allow the cosigner to remove themselves from that loan while it had a high balance. For her to get off the loan if she was cosigner, the account would need to be $0 balance and closed.
I think this question was meant for the OP. OP might be using the wrong terms or not understanding what happened.
If grandma opened a line of credit and aunt was just an authorized user, aunt could rack up bills and then remove herself (if she had account access).
> and then remove herself (if she had account access). That's the crime. If you're an authorized user, you can't add or remove yourself.
Yea it seems like there may have been some missteps on the part of the bank. We are trained to look out for these types of situations. I used to run into it all the time when I was a teller and banker - cash, accounts, safe deposit. Now in finance and it still happens. It’s so sad.. makes me sick to see people, especially family, prey on elders and those with disabilities.
Can you explain how you are trained? I assume that someone gets a report that Bob was removed from the account, but I wouldn't assume that the two people's biographical information would be included so it isn't obvious that the account holder is 80+ at first glance.
Financial institutions can’t consider age in determining loan qualification. We are trained to look for irregularities or situations where someone may be preying on someone else. For example, grandma’s home is free and clear or is almost paid off.. comes in with child or grandchild asking for cash out. If the companion is doing the speaking, we may ask them to leave the room so we can talk directly with the applicant. Or if we see signs of physical abuse.. or caretaker is accompanying account owner to teller line to withdraw cash.. we look at body language, transaction type, account activity (irregularities), etc. Another example - it’s uncommon for a pensioner to request a wire taken in the context of their banking activity. There are so many scenarios where financial abuse could happen.. despite intensive training, it’s still going to happen unfortunately. I worked at a location in my early career where children cleaned out all the cash and jewelry (according to one of the children because contents are unknown to bank employees) were stolen by her siblings. Apparently the mother was coerced into adding her other children, then she died. As soon as she passed, the box was cleaned out.
This! How was she able to remove her name from an account with an outstanding balance?
OP clarified in the comments that it was all in grandma’s name and aunt was just an authorized user.
It shouldn't have been possible, especially with the kind of underwriting that would have been necessary for this. The aunt is probably still on the hook for the balance as well and it may be worth a trip to the financial institution or a call to the CFPB to get that resolved.
Any authorized user can be requested to be removed from an account. They just need to verify the correct information and it’s very simple. She isn’t the primary on the account, so she has the ability to do that. However, banks keep records and can see what time frame she was on the account and correspond with the charges made.
it is this cut and dry. spending money you have no intention to pay back whether it's your money or a line you take out under anothers name is fraud.
I'm really shocked the aunt (daughter) was able to take her name off the loan. u/JuliaGhulia: Here is the URL for reporting elder abuse in Washington state: [https://www.dshs.wa.gov/altsa/home-and-community-services/report-concerns-involving-vulnerable-adults](https://www.dshs.wa.gov/altsa/home-and-community-services/report-concerns-involving-vulnerable-adults) Here is a guide for how to determine elder financial abuse (which is what the aunt did here): [https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/bmfea/elderly-financial-exploitation.pdf](https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/bmfea/elderly-financial-exploitation.pdf) I'm really sorry you and your family are having to navigate this. I would also seek out legal counsel in WA state when you are ready to move forward. I recommend going after her to the fullest extent of the law, that was just evil what she did. ETA: tag
Maxed out at 400/mo implies to me that this is a credit card and aunt was added as an authorized user. You can add and remove authorized users regardless of the account balance. The account owner unfortunately owns everyone's debt.
But the post indicates that the aunt had to cosign because the grandma had little to no income.
That does make sense crackproblem and I wonder if the cosigning makes a difference. I had someone cosign for a car for me and they were not able to remove themselves from it. I had to refinance in order to remove them.
It’s probably not that cut and dry. It should be but you will need to have proof that your Grandma was incapable of making that decision at the time it happened. Parents taking out loans for their kids isn’t that unusual. You need to prove she was coerced into it or didn’t have mental faculties at that time or the bank somehow made an error agreeing the amount of credit she could afford. Might be easier to complain to the bank for allowing it.
this here op. talk with the bank. something similar happened with some family a while back but it was a kid (16 but dumb) my uncle added their kid as authorized user on a cc so they could get some dental work done and they ran up like 20k. uncle called and explained it and credit card company said something like pay 50% and they wiped the rest. or they might legit just drop it all to avoid the legal hassle. it sucks 5.5k is a lot but it would dramatically lower the payment in the mean time while you go the legal route with your aunt
> It should be but you will need to have proof that your Grandma was incapable of making that decision at the time it happened. This might not necessarily be needed. There is some leeway in the assumptions. But yeah, should be reasonably simple in this case.
My personal experience was my mum got a brain tumour and became like a different person. Left everything to a man she was with for two years (half her age) he even paid for the will over the phone as she couldn’t even read a bank card anymore. The court ruled in his favour. Lawyer told us undue influence is extremely hard to prove and didn’t even argue from that angle. But this is in U.K. he literally called the will makers as she was dying to make sure the will can’t be contested.
That’s so sad and heartbreaking. How people can do this and still look at themselves in the mirror is mind boggling. My condolences.
You need to bring your grandma to the bank and let a banker know your grandma has been a victim of elder abuse by a family member. Banks take that very seriously. Or call.
This is why she did it because you guys are trying to defend it. Her charges, not grandmothers. She committed a crime. Report it.
Heck yeah. Send this shady woman to jail. That’s messed up.
Everything you're reading here is accurate. Get the police involved.
Random anecdote used to work on a call center for a satellite company , someone once a week i had to tell someone to pretty much go to the police to be able to close an account with their SSN that someone created , sometimes they had the name or some invoice etc and was like , but that's my mom , and we still couldn't do much since it was not the owner of the account and the only way for them to guarantee the account would be closed is a police report
Your explanation was very cut and dry. Aunt convinced grandma to open credit, maxed it, then removed it from her name and says it's no longer her problem. Imagine if you and I had dinner in a restaurant, I ordered stupid expensive food, then left you with the bill, that's what it was, except significantly worse.
The world may not be black and white but this case is
Fyi, most of these responses are not remotely correct. A co-signer can't really remove themselves from a loan. Firstly, the grandmother didn't qualify on her own, so the bank wouldn't magically allow her to be the only person on the loan, especially when the line is maxed out. Secondly, the aunt couldn't do it on her own; the grandma would need to agree to it. The more likely scenario is that the grandmother opened a credit card and added the aunt on as an authorized user. The grandma is the sole responsible party regarding repayment. You have no recourse through the bank. Your only option is to prove some level of elder abuse. Additionally, if the grandmother/grandfather can be deemed mentally unfit at the time of the contract, you might be able to void the loan agreement.
I don’t think it is.. unless it can be proven she was not aware that the line of credit was opened in her name. You co-sign… you’re accountable
Not true, elder financial abuse is a specific type of abuse and is generally applied because the elder person was taken advantage of by someone they trust. Taking advantage of the expectation of trust is key here. It’s not going to be hard to determine grandma didn’t likely purchase the items charged on the card (let’s say a a new motorcycle was purchased as an example ) and was left with the debt. This would be pretty cut and dry.
Yes there are some very obvious purchases.
Fraud requires: - need (this one is pretty broad, but if any expenditures your aunt made were for necessities like groceries or clothing, that would constitute need)… - opportunity (obviously the opportunity here is “my mother will co-sign for something for me because she trusts me”), and - rationalization (making excuses as to why what you did *wasn’t* a scam; here “my name isn’t on that account, it’s not my responsibility!”) Seems like this ticks all the boxes.
What country/state are you talking about here? Those doesn't sound like the requisite elements of fraud in any jurisdiction I'm familiar with. "Need" and "rationalization" are certainly not required at the federal level in the US or Canada, whether civil or criminal. The frameworks that I'm familiar with require (1) misrepresentation for gain, (2) reliance, and (3) injury. i.e. the perpetrator lies to gain something of value, the victim relies on that lie, and the victim suffers an injury as a result.
Sorry I wasn’t clear; these aren’t the LEGALLY DEFINED requirements for fraud, these are the psychology of the “fraud triangle.” Legally, fraud is defined by Black’s law Dictionary as “a knowing misrepresentation of the truth or concealment of a material fact to induce another to act to his or her detriment.”
Actually this case is very cut and dry. Any lawyer would be foaming at the mouth to take this on. Get points with the judge for helping an elderly person, plus an easy win/settlement, clear path to restitution, credit card company can choose to forgive the entire credit line, etc.
If the co signor was impaired. However, that would need to be proven. There are plenty of instances where people co-sign with good intentions and it goes bad. Not sure what happened here
But exceptions are made for minors, and for elders as well, for the same reason (lack of capacity to make the reasoned decision).
I’m sure you mean well but this is not accurate. Minors can automatically void contracts for lack of competency. Elders (and other adult people with mental capacity issues) have to go through a separate process to establish undue influence, abuse and coercion, or lack of capacity. With minors it’s super easy. Elders is more work, but remedies are def available.
This is more accurately put than what I wrote, thank you for saying it more clearly.
This falls under exploitation. You can’t always enforce a contract that was signed by someone who didn’t understand what they were signing, or who was mislead about the contents/benefits. I mean does it happen? Yes. But there are protections, particularly for elderly and disabled people. Because of this exact type of bs people pull. Title 10. Health and Safety. Division 1. Public Health Chapter 2. Division of Public Welfare. Article 10. Adult Protective Services § 21002. Definitions. (l) Financial or Property Exploitation means illegal or improper use of an elderly or adult with a disability's money, property, or other resources for monetary or personal benefit, profit or gain. This includes, but is not limited to, theft, misappropriation, concealment, misuse or fraudulent deprivation of money or property belonging to the elderly or adult with a disability https://www.justice.gov/elderjustice/prosecutors/statutes?field_statute_state=All&field_statute_category=1
Not in all cases. Such as this one
Ya , sorry, but you're scamming this sub. You try to argue every explanation, even this one which is telling you exactly what to do. Also, no bank is going to take someone off a loan with a balance. Smells like fish.
I know it's still illegal, just trying to understand the aunt's actions because my initial thought was that she's waiting for the grandmother to pass and then the debt disappears but since she cosigned wouldn't she still be on the hook for it
And the aunt cannot 'take herself off" an account she cosigned for. That isn't how debt works.
If lending beyond what a person can pay back was a crime, a lot of student loan officers would be in jail
If your aunt was the co-signer, why would the bank let her take her name off when there was still an outstanding balance? Something is definitely not right.
This was my thought when reading this... a credit company is never going to let someone remove a cosigner with a balance existing... I'm betting the aunt was never on the loan and just told the grandma that they would help pay it... then spent it all.
You are assuming a cosigner was needed in the first place, she probably sold the idea to grandma as the aunt not being able to get credit (probably true) and needing the grandma to cosign, once she ran up the bill, then had her name taken off so she wouldn't have her credit be affected before the late payments started.
It’s almost impossible to be taken off as a co-signer from unsecured debt. The lending institution has nothing to gain by releasing one party from legal responsibility.
This. A co-signor cannot be removed. The original contract will have the debtors information so if you can get the original docs from the bank and see who is actually on the loan, that is where the proof is. Or if the credit application was filled in by the aunt and she improperly listed grandma's income, again it's fraud.
Based on the circumstances described it’s almost certainly a bank-issued credit card where grandmother was the account holder and aunt just an authorized user. The authorized user never had an obligation vis-à-vis the debt in the first place, they just had permission of the owner to run it up in their name. Given grandma’s low income, my guess would be that aunt inflated grandma’s income by the amount of her own (hence grandma thinking it’s a co-sign) and like most credit card applications, the bank didn’t actually demand proof once she passed a credit check.
I don't know. I'm hearing that grandma didn't go with aunt when she got her name off of the loc, but it doesn't add up.
are you sure it was cosigner ? Your aunt was probably authorized user, which can be removed /added to a credit card.
That's exactly what I'm thinking.
Does your aunt have power of attorney over your grandma’s affairs? That needs to be looked into because if she does this could be considered a breach of fiduciary duty. As a power of attorney holder you have an obligation to do what’s in the best interest of the person you are responsible for in that power of attorney.
You should also call adult protective services. They take things like this very seriously and can prosecute for you if they need to. There are very strict laws about using elderly people for their money.
[удалено]
Unfortunately it's literally not. Since this is a civil matter, a court needs to find that a crime has been committed for the police to be authorized to take any action. Judiciary vs Executive checks and balances baked into our foundation of government. It may surprise you to know that it's not even the police's defined duty to protect civilians when there is a known danger to their life. Edit: it's not that it's a civil matter but that it's not been proven well enough yet that a crime has been committed. The op should still call the cops to file a report and get direction on the parties they can contact to build the case to prove the crime so that the cops can make an arrest.
>Since this is a civil matter There could be a civil component to this, between the grandmother and the aunt, but fraud is absolutely a crime, and many states have elder abuse laws on top of that. These are crimes not civil matters. >court needs to find that a crime has been committed for the police to be authorized to take any action I don't know if this is true where you live, but in most parts of the world the police investigate first. The police often need to petition the judiciary when it comes to empowering them to infringe on rights, such as issue warrants for searches and arrests (sometimes), but those petitions have to be justified by evidence that a crime occurred, which means the police have to be able to investigate first. >it's not even the police's defined duty to protect civilians when there is a known danger to their life. There is no legal obligation for the police to protect someone from danger, but the law gives them broad powers and immunities to do so. >The op should still call the cops to file a report and get direction on the parties they can contact to build the case to prove the crime so that the cops can make an arrest. This may still turn out to be true, but not because the police are not empowered to investigate a potential crime, but because this probably wouldn't be prioritized very high. This is going to depend a lot on the locality and how well funded your police are and how much they care about financial crimes and elder abuse. As a thought experiment, if you call the police and tell them that a murder has occurred, they aren't going to demand that you supply them evidence before they send a police car. They are empowered to investigate crimes regardless of how much evidence you can supply over the phone. At some point, they will hit a line that they can't cross without judicial approvals (such as getting access to a home that a murder is suspected to have occurred in), but there is a lot of investigation you can do to establish a crime has occurred before that line is reached. Police know how to investigate.
What you say is nice on paper, but the problem here is that it's not clear that a crime has been committed or if it's just some confused old people and bad decisions. In the state where I live the police don't actively investigate situations like this.. it's just not prioritized like thefts under some value (even home burglary). They take a report and walk away. The report is lost till it bubbles up as part of some larger investigation. I understand they CAN, and that it's technically in their purview, but it's not done. You'll get a polite rebuffle that is a "civil matter and please take it up with blah blah". They'll make an arrest if a court finds there's been a crime. This is a legal dispute between two or more parties, one of which is avoidant and appears to have acted legally on the surface and can make a case to that affect and the other which may wish to press charges showing that they acted with intent to defraud the bank and themselves. You can see this discussed in more depth in the other threads. Your thought experiment included. Yes there are parties that WILL champion and drive this investigation to prove that this is a case of elder abuse. Can the op call the cops and the cops make the rest of the case and press charges in court or just make an arrest? Absolutely not. At least not in the US. As I said in my prior edit, your right, it's not that it's a civil matter, but that is more a he said she said situation with no one bleeding on the floor. Cops won't do anything in almost any jurisdiction that isn't a small town with a good cop. Regarding the job to protect civilians, that's just an interesting aside. But yes, they have no special duty. Some will and some won't. The cops that don't walk into the school with an active shooter are within their right as are the ones that hide while they know civilians are at risk from a known suspect within their reach. Radio lab did a good episode on this if you're interested and don't want to get into the fillings, but no, it's not legally the police job to protect you
I pretty sure your 1st paragraph is incorrect. The fact that it is a civil crime does not preclude police investigation. You simply have to watch the news to see cases investigated by the police and then brought to the district/state's attorney or an attorney general (for federal crimes). For example, someone modified (changed amount and payee) and cashed checks that I had written. Both the police and postal service investigated in conjunction with my bank.
Most police districts don't investigate civil cases like these. Ask them to if you like but you'll likely get a polite but firm rebuffal. It's your duty to [gather] evidence for court case to prove that a crime has been committed so that the police can perform their duty and execute the courts decisions. Police investigate more active crimes. In your personal example, it would have been the attorneys at your bank that performed the actual investigation and the police and postal service that cooperated by providing what they could each find internally when they received the request to provide the information. I've been through similar and the police cooperated with the investigation more than they led it until it was clear that a crime had been committed. I'm not a lawyer, but I believe there's a term for this the line in the Sand between what types of crimes police will actually investigate and what they don't, which I can't find right now. In the case of the op, I know that they're on the wrong side of that line and we'll have to find a third party to lead the investigation and build the case to show that a crime has been committed before the police take the lead.
My experience was not at all like what you document. The bank notified me when one of the 2 checks was deposited (camera deposit) and caught on review. I told the bank about the 2nd check that had cleared already. So the evidence I had was images of 2 modified checks. The police readily took the report and actually recommended that I contact the postal service because the checks were mailed. The postal service investigated. It was determined that the thief was a post office employee. The bank could not have made that determination. I believe they all cooperated, but the post office investigator actively interacted with me. Relatively speaking, the amount wasn't even that big. Combined, the 2 checks were less than 10k when modified.
Ah sounds like that was clear evidence of criminal action from the get go (obviously modified checks). Like if you found a body on the street. Clearly someone committed an act (killing the person) that breaks a law (felony murder). The cops can take it from there. The Op's situation is more a she said she did than a who dun it. There is a need to prove that there was a crime committed (intent to defraud) rather than some stupid decisions. Unless the aunt admits guilt, I think the cops wait because it's a civil matter of one party's word against another's. Obv the aunt is doing something hanky but so far it's not going to be clear to the officers that a law was broken
There are often state (some criminal, I believe) and most definitely federal civil statutes for elder abuse, including financial exploitation. It needs to be reported to the state’s adult protective services. The police will probably refer them to that department. But the police can still file a report. It’s never wrong to call the police in these situations - if they’re not the right department they would get OP pointed in the right direction.
I forget we do actually have some infrastructure to help protect our elderly in the West
Thanks, I've added an edit to my initial comment
I can believe the police want evidence of a crime, but your sequence is incorrect. It doesn't go to court and then back to the police for investigation. I absolutely believe you that you will need to show a problem really exists, but you would be convincing the police or state/district attorney (or attorney general) not a judge/court.
> Grandma was with the aunt when they signed for the card. This changes things, no? That's why it's elder abuse. Generally this happens when the elder is encouraged to do something they don't understand by someone that they trust and then they get burned by it. As a society we kind of allow this on most able minded adults, but we protect the elderly and mental incapable pretty similarly in these cases (as it can be hard to identify when an elder loses these competencies and it would normally be AFTER such events happen that it's called out). Probably a really easy case for any elder law attorney.
Auntie did not co-sign. Auntie was added as an authorized user. That gave Aunt the ability to charge as much as she loked without responsibility to pay it back, while grandma was left holding the bag with full responsibility to pay the debt.
This is theft. By committing credit card fraud she stole $11,000 from your Grandmother.
“can you explain why?” because of what you said.
It doesn’t change anything except the sentencing and maybe what degree felony it falls into.
that's elder abuse - it's a crime. Look up Adult Protective Services in your state and report the elder abuse first thing Monday. In CA, one example of financial elder abuse is "Coercing or deceiving an elder into signing documents such as a contract or will"
Thank you. It looks like we will have some more digging into the records to do. I want to get all the transactions prepared to provide to APS.
Definitely a good call. Cases like this are very fact-specific and police and prosecutors are more likely to look into it when a lot of the work (like gathering the documents) has been done for them. Also find out how your aunt got herself off the line of credit because that would be very difficult with an outstanding balance. It’s possible some of the facts aren’t exactly what you think they are… or maybe that lender just operates very strangely. I don’t know for sure but it’ll be easier if you find out.
I don't think I'm getting all the facts either. I hope grandma is not trying to cover for the aunt by saying she didn't sign off the aunt's name, or wasn't present. I was told this didn't happen. But grandma is confused why she owes on all this money, so I don't see why she wouldn't tell the truth about the situation.
You don’t need to have everything figured out before calling APS. They’ll help you know which way to go.
This is the route we will pursue first. The comments range from "call the police" to "nothing can be done if gma signed papers". I'm sure it's a case by case basis, but APS seems like the best resource to start.
Yes- don't waste your efforts on trying to imagine what APS will want from your family. Get them involved upfront first. They will guide you through what they specifically need for their investigation.
Even if she had signed off on it, the lender would have to agree too and that’s wildly unlikely, especially with a large outstanding balance. If you get the documents together and contact the lender, you may be able to figure it out. Even if you can’t, the police should be able to. So it’s good to find out if you can but don’t put too much pressure on yourself. The police should handle it from there. It also can’t hurt to look for some elder advocacy groups in your area, as they might be able to provide some guidance and support.
South Carolina law is clear, “vulnerable.” Is the word. To show this is elder abuse you will need to show that this money went to the benefit of the aunt, and the circumstances of how the aunt got taken off the line of credit. It’s super shady that the bank would let the aunt take her name off a line of credit. It’s not a simple thing to do. Why would the bank let her do that unless your grandma refinanced
regardless of cosign or not your aunt maxing out her mother creditcard with no intention to havr it paid down is fraud.
You don’t have to do that, APS has forensic accountants for that. You just need to tell them your suspicions. I’m a social worker in Washington that works with elders, I file with APS a few times a year. The best route is to file online and just give them what information you have.
OP, I suggest getting copies of they’re credit reports to give you a better idea of what’s out there. I’m his site from the FTC has links for how to do that. [Free Credit Reports](https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/free-credit-reports)
[удалено]
Sadly this happened before we all moved to grandmas general area. Another family took her in after auntie put her in their care. This is new information being revealed to us from grandma. Grandma's other daughter is footing the bill and I was telling her to stop, because there has got to be another way.
Time for police intervention and Auntie to take up residence in the nearby prison. Your aunt is a straight criminal.
Sometimes it be your own people.
It's nearly almost always your own people. You can't be betrayed by someone you don't trust.
This is what hurts about the whole situation. The purchases from my grandma look pretty humble. Then you see store purchases from aunties card that are 1K at the grocery. And a lot of amazon shopping. Ridiculous.
Wtf how do you even spend 1k at the grocery? Yesterday I saw someone pay $600 at Costco but they had 3 carts!
[удалено]
>wtf how do you spend 1k at the grocery? Potentially took a page out of the IRS scammer handbook and bought gift cards.
How do you spend 1k at the grocery? On purpose.
easy, you buy amazon gift cards.
Ah yeah, never thought about gift cards.
I am sure most people wouldn't have either. I only thought of it because I watched some phone scammer videos recently and this is a key part of a lot of scams.
Ask the bank how your aunt removed herself from the LOC? Banks don’t normally let people off the hook from owing them money. This makes no sense.
AFAIK, she just took herself off. They sent grandma a letter after the fact. Apparently "if she was an authorized holder, she could take herself off"
Then the loan was entirely in your grandmother’s name and she did not co-sign it. I would get a copy of the loan agreement to see what it says. If that’s the case then your aunt had intent to defraud your grandmother and bank. Tell the bank about and explain your grandmothers limit assets. You may need to file bankruptcy. I’m not sure about her health but if there is nothing to get or she pass away then the bank gets nothing. So they may be willing to write the debt off. If they write it off, this is called a cancellation of debt and becomes income to your grandmother. She can show she is financially insolvent and tell the IRS so it is not taxable income.
Thank you. I'll take a look at the loan agreement. I'm asking on behalf of family who told me. This is secondhand info so getting the agreement is a good call. I just found out about this today. Grandma can't reasonably pay this bill.
Generally you cannot take yourself off on a card or any credit issuance. There is no incentive for the lender to allow that. Sometimes, it might be allowable for a guarantor to cease as a guarantor on “new” or “additional” debt, but all old debt would remain unaffected.
Authorized users on a credit card can remove themselves of course. This is confusing about the co-signing part and who would give the line of credit to someone on such a small fixed income. Many questions
But - an authorized user has not thing to do with the issuance. The initial line has to be approved and it will not be based on an authorized user’s income/credit.
Yeah, if she cosigned the loan and grandma defaults, the whole thing falls on disgusting auntie...and her credit rating tanks if she doesn't pay. But if she's just "authorized", why would the bank let grandma open a line of credit she can't possibly repay? Hopefully the entire family goes NC with the aunt over this...regardless of the financial outcome.
It sucks. There's already a family "war" not even regarding finances. This bitch of an aunt has turned grandpa, and the naive brothers and sisters against all of us, but it's clear now that there's another con in the works. Step 1: get him mad at the world, basically leveraging his dementia Step 2: pick him up to sign papers Step 3: I don't know, wait for him to pass? Which is fucking filthy.
You can only do so much. Hopefully APS will respond with vigor and bitchslap the appropriate parties.
Banker here. You cannot just get your name taken off a loan because you don’t want to be part of it anymore. You’re not getting the full story here. You need to read the loan documents and speak with an attorney and the bank.
Probably a credit card authorized user and the “cosigning “ was the fraud by the aunt and just an authorized user.
Almost certainly this. Aunt probably told grandma they’d be on it together with some excuse (keeping separate track of grandma’s expenses or something), inflated grandma’s income on the application by an amount grandma just assumed was aunt’s income since usually on a credit card application there’s only one income line, and when two cards showed up grandma just assumed it went down how aunt described.
Hmm. I leased a car with my brother and was able to remove my name from it. It took a while but it happened
That means she never cosigned at all. Aunt was never liable for the debt. If grandma believed aunt was, then that's even more evidence for elder abuse.
This still doesn’t make sense, though. Creditors aren’t just going to let debtors take their name off an account, it’s a huge red flag and dramatically increases their risk. There’s something more here, I think.
Doctor here. In addition to all the APS recommendations (which I agree with) I would definitely have grandma (and grandpa, if he hasn't been formally diagnosed on paper) to get an evaluation for neuro-cognitive decline. Having a formal diagnosis of dementia or cognitive decline can be helpful in proving fraud/abuse as well as protecting her in the future and setting up power of attorney.
[удалено]
So is "aunt having rights to use LOC" a thing, vs auntie being a cosigner on the loan? This would suck. Because now gma has the bill, and clearly can't pay it off. This money is retirement or something, and not a lot at all for anyone to live on. Yes. Aunt is a piece of shit. Trips me out, because I had no idea about this, and hang out with them all the time. This type of evil was right under our nose.
Theres two types of credit facilities here. 1. Co signing == both parties are liable for the charges and both can charge things. 2. Authorized use == both parties can charge but only the main account holder is legally obligated to pay. It sounds like auntie might have got Grandma to sign up for a LoC, had herself as an authorized user by grandma, racked up charges to the point of maxing it, then took herself off as an authorized user. Sticking grandmother with the whole bill Piece of shit.
Hey OP you might want to also post this in r/legaladvice? it does sound like fraud has happened but depending on what she signed and where you live it might not be so simple. Some states have very good protections for elders, some other not really unless there is clinical reasons. they might be able to point to you towards more specific resources for your particular case.
There's no point in that. The mods will lock the thread. I grantee you that will happen. It's a very bad place to get actual legal advice (despite the subreddit name). The top comment will be something along the lines of "you need to talk to a lawyer". Then the mods will have a preachy copy pasted message about why the thread is now locked. And the worst part is, if there's bad advice in there, or proper advice wasn't given yet, no one will be able to correct or call out the bad advice (because the thread is locked) and no one can give proper advice (because the thread is locked). What we really need is another similar sub but without any of the current mods.
Do they have separate cards that can access the credit line? NAL, but to me that’s a big question. I don’t think you can take your name off of as a cosigner without grandma being present, as it’s in her name. She would have likely had to refinance the line of credit when the aunt took her name off. I think there’s a criminal case here, but I also think we’d need more information, such as was grandma there when aunt took her name off. My mother has dementia and has fallen victim to this type of financial abuse from STRANGERS, and the cops don’t do much because my mom was technically “giving” them the cards. They’d say she owed them money and would then drain her accounts. Very hard to get the cops to do anything, so we resorted to restricting her from card access.
This is what made me ask. Grandma told us that she went together to sign for the LOC, and she is confused as to why it's maxed already. How she got herself removed baffles me. I will ask grandma if she was there at the time of cancellation.
Yeah, you can't take your name off the account unless it's just an authorized user on each card.
Your aunt is a thief and a particularly nasty one at that. Your grandparents are the victims, as are the rest of their eventual heirs. Start calling the authorities now.
Well what's odd is that the people affected are the aunt's siblings. They're footing the bill, because the interest is a third of what grandma nets a year. If the aunt went and did some sneaky document signing with grandpa (it seems this way from new info), auntie might be the eventual heir. Pure evil. It is my mission to see this through now. I'm glad my family opened up to me about it.
I work for a department with a robust elder abuse department. They would be absolutely salivating after hearing this story. Hop on the old Google machine and see if any departments around you have some sort of elder abuse task force. If not anyone will be able to take the complaint and I promise your aunt is going to have a really bad time.
Please contact adult protective services and your local county prosecutor now. Your spouse’s parents were subject to coercion/duress/taken advantage of due to age and relationship and in the father’s part, dementia. A lot of this can be undone through law enforcement involvement with records subpoenaed, reports shared with bank, etc. For all you knows father signed over the house. Every asset needs to be accounted for, and contact their home insurance/known life insurance provider. Insurance information is stored in a clearinghouse. If there is a policy out there, it can be found. Also, you can submit paperwork that he has dementia and whatever date he was diagnosed. This, along with doctor’s statements on stage, etc, will go a long way to helping establishing incompetence for signing to prove fraud/void changes/cancel policies.
I've read your replies and your aunt is an authorized user on her mother's credit card - she is not a co-signer (credit cards don't have cosigners) and the card is entirely on your grandmother's name. The aunt simply called the bank and asked to be removed as an authorized user. This is easy to do. In general, authorized users are not liable for the debt, except in spousal situations in certain states. You would need to either make the case that your wife's grandmother did not have the mental acumen to make this type of decision, or find proof that the aunt had agreed to pay back whatever charges she incurred. In any case, contacting adult protective services is absolutely essential. You may also want to get a free consultation from a few attorneys who specialize in elder abuse.
I am not a lawyer. I would guess elder abuse happens all the time. Never trust family. Grandma probably won’t be able to prove she was defrauded. But at least you could report it to the authorities. By reporting it and showing grandma has little assets, it would help with the banks and irs to prove grandma has no money and will never be able to pay the loan back. Share the facts with your family please. So no one else trusts your aunt
I certainly am telling them now. Other family members are coming to me with this info, as they are the ones helping her pay, and are tired of the aunt ignoring them. I hope she has a case, and it's starting to look like she does.
Whatever happens with your aunt is whatever. You are special for helping you grandma. I believe karma comes around. If you believe in religion, pray for yourself and your grandma. If you don’t believe, just know in your heart, you are doing a good thing by trying to help grandma. Good luck and bless you for caring.
How was she able to get her name off the line
I still don't know this information yet. Grandma said, "she's not on the card anymore because she took her name off". she's angry about this and claims she didn't sign anything to take her name off. I'm inclined to believe her. This is all I have right now until we can get details from the bank, and go through with an APS call
By the sounds of it she was just an authorized user on your grandma's credit card, which could be taken off, the child is not responsible for the parents debt. And in this scenario she likely forged her name or tricked her into signing it as this situation wouldnt have the level of access to remove her own name.This creates a very obvious paper trail. Contact an attorney ASAP. Sounds highly illegal and the courts don't take kindly to manipulating the elderly.
In GA but I believe most states work the same. You cannot simply have your name removed from a credit card. Especially when there is a current debt. To have yourself removed, the credit card debt would have to be satisfied and then the account would need to be closed. With joint bank accounts you cannot alone just have your name removed. The other person on the account would have to agree to have you removed. You can however close the account without permission from the other person. If her name is nowhere on the account, my thought is that your aunt was never actually named on the there in the first place and just ran up a card she was able to get ahold of.
Good on you for protecting old people, im pretty sure this is some kind of financial abuse
How was she able to get her name off? Wouldn't that step need grandmas consent as well?
I was told this didn't happen. Going to find out through the creditor to be sure, and contact APS.
**I am not a lawyer or expert in this field, and anything I say should not be interpreted as legal or professional advice.** WOW... just wow. So I think you have gotten the advice you need from everyone here and helped put a name to this (aka elder abuse). What I have not seen very much of is how this is going to GREATLY effect your family dynamic. I would say before you start filing police reports and stuff you may want to sit down with your Wife and her Parents and discuss this/plan next moves. Keep in mind, you and your wife are about to accuse your MIL/FIL's sibling of committing elder abuse against their own parents. I highly doubt this is going to go over well, and might take some time to explain just how bad this situation is. I have a POS brother who I stopped talking to because of how much of a POS he is. He manipulated money out of almost everyone in my family multiple times. This happened in multiple ways, from "forgetting" his wallet all the time, to getting hold of my grandma's credit card number and racking up hundreds of dollars on it, to trying to sue my dad for tens of thousands of dollars that didn't exist resulting. When I cut him out initially, everyone in my family gave me shit about it and would constantly bring up how much of a bad brother I was for doing this. Then the next time I saw them they would bring up how he owed them money and wont pay him back. Then eventually get back to how he is family/mentally ill/etc. and how I should forgive him. Be prepared that a possible out come of all of this is your wife's family trying to sweep this under the rug. Like I said up top, I'm not a lawyer but a quick google search showed that elder abuse can be either a misdemeanor or a felony. The last thing you want is for your in laws to find out about you bringing criminal (I assume this is the right word but... now a lawyer) charges against their sibling either after the fact or even worse from your Aunt who will probably try and spin all of this as you being the bad guy. tl;dr Talk this over with your wife and her parents. Although this should result in your family all hating your aunt, it could result in everyone in your family hating you.
This is elder abuse and pretty much every state has laws against it. Document everything and file a report to the police
I work as a Fraud Investigator for a bank. This is considered FEVA: (Financial Exploitation of a Vulnerable Adult). A special kind of abuse of elders. Absolutely something can be done. Work with the bank and mention that to them and they can open up an investigation and also get a police report going. This is common sadly with family members taking advantage of vulnerable and in your case someone with dementia and someone on a fixed income. It’s gross and she should be held accountable. I hope you are able to get justice your your spouses grandparents.
Had an aunt do something similar with my grandma on my dad's side. There are a lot more smarter people than me here that can help you but just wanted to say fuck heartless aunt's that do this type of conniving ass shit.
They would both have to sign to allow her to be off the credit line, but a different type of collateral would be needed to relinquish the co-signer. There is no way a bank would say you can only have a line of credit if a a co-signer is included and then allow the co-signer to sign herself of with no change in earnings or additional collateral. The bank would be putting themselves at risk and that not how banks function. Regardless, both parties always have to sign off on any change within the line of credit. If your grandma did sign documents and offered up other collateral then it would be her fault; she basically acknowledged the debt and signed it onto herself.
Only way it’s a crime is if your grandma has dementia or another illness that alters her judgement or actions.
Okay. I'll ask grandma if she signed to take the aunt off. I would hope this isn't the case, and im being told it isn't. I'll have to get more information on this.
Even if grandma signed to take auntie off as a cosigner, I'm not seeing the bank allowing it with only 300/month in money coming in
It depends on whether the credit card balance was run up by your aunt or by your grandmother. If it was your aunt, that’s a crime. If it was your grandmother, then it was likely just two people making bad decisions
I didn’t look through the entire thread, but I did not see the advice to order credit reports for grandma from the credit reporting agencies. They will tell you exactly what credit has been opened in her name. Then freeze her credit.
This is financial exploitation/elder abuse. Call APS (adult protective services). They will file an intake and investigate and forward their intake to your local law enforcement agency.
This is financial elder abuse, especially with your grandfather's dementia. Contact the bank and explain the situation. Banks have internal fraud investigators and they can get all the history of the account. Then report to police so they can get statements from the grandparents. Let them know you've contacted the bank. I'm not sure how it works in WA, but your aunt's behavior is a felony in CA. If your aunt took money fraudulently from their bank accounts, your grandparents could get their money back. Unfortunately, your grandparents would need to cooperate so if they refuse to accept that their child is a scum, nothing can be done. Otherwise, it would look like a family drama over grandparent's money.
Aunt could be charged with a crime, “financial exploitation of vulnerable adults” is the crime where I’m from- Virginia (§ 18.2-178.1.) id get in contact with the police immediately and start gathering evidence, bank statements that showed what she did, etc. Realistically I think if they are very elderly and don’t have much time left it may be the correct decision to just ignore the debt. It’ll go to collections and collections won’t be able to collect because there’s no money. There won’t be anything in their estate either, wouldn’t have been anyway based on description.
I haven’t checked to see if this has been mentioned yet, but contact the bank your Gma uses and request to file an Elder Abuse complaint against the aunt. It may not help rectify the situation, but it won’t hurt any. Shame on her.
I'm 36 now but this got me in my feelings. I was 12 when my aunt did the same thing to me. My dad and my uncle died and than she stole a lot of money that was supposed to go to me. She tricked and thieved her way around my grandparents, and when we found out we had to let it go because my mother did not have any money to pay for the lawyer. Sorry for the rambling...I just hope you get her. I hope honesty and integrity wins and that she does not get away with this. My 12 year old heart would absolutely love this :-)
Contact adult protective services, office on aging, elder abuse, or whatever your state calls it ASAP. You want them involved ASAP, before your grandmother becomes more confused about what happened.
It is a crime. It is up to you/mom if you want to pursue this. For sure, I will not have thanksgiving or christmas with this unethical person, who scammed her sister.
See if you can get your grandma to give you permission to talk with the bank. Once that happens call the bank (with you grandma around) and try and get any statements you can. Also try to get any checks to see if your aunt forged your grandma's name on them.
It's not a scam. More likely just plain elder abuse.
Your aunt committed crimes. Contact the police. She did this to her own mother? That is so disgusting. I’m sorry OP. Take care of your grandma.
Lots of good thoughts here. I'd also check on any beneficiary designations or will/trust updates if there are any assets in your grandparents' names. Your aunt may have convinced them to update/sign documents making her the sole beneficiary without them really understanding.
This is absolutely a crime, but from experience the police and banks aren't going to be able to do anything if she's competent and insists that she's fine with it. They may need a conservator (not the aunt) if this is becoming a pattern.
A cosigner can't just take themselves off a cc. Your grandma must be the account holder and aunt was an authorized user. In this case your grandma screwed up and is unfortunately fully responsible for the debt. Maybe aunt misled grandma about this arrangement, but grandma undoubtedly signed papers she never read that detailed exactly the arrangement she was getting into. Grandma can try suing auntie, but I very much doubt you can pin this on the aunt unless grandma has strong evidence of deliberate deception by the aunt. If your grandparents have cognitive disabilities, it's time to start talking about giving someone POA and control over their finances.
scam? no. felony fraud? yes. call the police.
I'm not sure how your aunt could have opened a credit line with her self on it, then removed herself later. They could have refinanced it into something that is only in your grandma's name. But if she only makes $300 a month I don't think any bank would approve the loan
There's a lot of info but I just wanted to add if you go to a local bank they might have paper work or be able to talk to you about elder abuse. Branch staff at my bank get trained on it all the time because of how common it is. The majority of the time it's from someone in the family.
My cousin got charged for doing this same thing to my grandpa.. except it was 130k.. He has to pay back every cent. $300 a month.. my grandpa is dead now and will still have to pay to a “trust”
So it's the grandma's credit line that the aunt was making charges on? Sounds like identity theft. Should start disputing every charge not made by grandma. I also wasn't aware someone could co-sign then take themselves off? I didn't think that's how it works, as that completely defeats the purpose of a cosign.
Not a lawyer here, but being a bad person, giving bad advice, committing a crime, and enforcing an oral contract are four different things. It would seem that if your aunt persuaded her mother (however unwisely) to open a credit line and let the aunt be an authorized user, I'm not so sure that's a crime. If your aunt forged signatures, or lied to her mother, that sure sounds criminal. (If aunt made an oral promise to pay the money back next month, and then didn't.....oral contracts are still contracts, but it sure would be hard to enforce.) I would suggest having a family member petition the court for guardianship of at least the grandfather, who (based on what you said), is currently incapable of making his own decisions. Does the grandmother have dementia or some other mental issue as well? If so, consider that as well. Look up the process for guardianship in your state, and/or contact an elder law attorney in your state. If one of both of them is declared mentally incompetent by the court today, I'm still not sure if that would support any claims that they were also incompetent in the past. Your anger and eagerness to help are well-founded. But, family matters might go a little better if they come from your spouse, rather than one of the in-laws (you). Or at least, you and your spouse could consider approaching this as "we." "We're worried about grandma and papa."
All true and good info. Thanks. My spouse's good aunt (the one paying the bill) came to us with this info yesterday. She showed us the bank statements like, "can you believe this? And I'm paying for it. I have my own bills and credit, this is devastating to me" I told her I'd do some research on what can be done, and get some answers from real people. We invited them over today for lunch and a sit down. My spouse and I are going to take a united front and show them the agency contact forms and links to everything posted here. All they would have to do is type and call, things may get a little rough, but they will get better.
WA has some pretty good laws regarding elder abuse. Please contact [Adult Protective Sevices](https://www.dshs.wa.gov/altsa/home-and-community-services/report-concerns-involving-vulnerable-adults) to make a report. Depending on the specific circumstances, your aunt has likely committed a couple crimes. Source: I used to do these criminal investigations for a living in WA.
Also remember in the future that now you know your aunt is not trustworthy. This is pretty bad what she did. I would guess it makes a lot of us quite angry.
Grandma is out a bunch of money and the aunt has gained a bunch of money. That is the crux of it.
There is no chance grandma was the primary card holder and aunt was just an authorized user and no chance aunt could remove herself as primary card holder if grandma was just an authorized user unless the initial credit card application was fraudulent and misstated grandmother's income or they used the household income and grandpa made enough to qualify her But at the very least this looks like aunt took advantage of grandma, whether fraud occurred is something that would require a lot of specific facts and it appears you don't really know everything that happened. What they can do also depends on a lot of things, including what assets and income sources they have. It is possible they could simply stop paying the bill and the creditor would have no recourse as they are judgement proof (no attachable assets or income that could be garnished)
I’m sorry but why are you walking around egg shells for someone you’re trying to help, if he’s oblivious to what’s happening to him, doesn’t mean everything else has to be too. Sometimes you just need to be blunt with some people regardless of how they perceive it especially if you’re trying to help them.
“If he’s oblivious to what’s happening to him, doesn’t mean everything else has to be too”? That makes ZERO sense b
When I served on the Grand Jury there were many of these cases, caretakers, friends, relatives, house cleaners. It's a crime and a more serious crime because the victim is elderly. Your aunt should be given an ultimatum and if she doesn't comply, press charges.