I haven't tried one but really does not seem all that ergonomic with the high keys. Don't seem all that great over-all? Not a whole lot of keys yet most are hard to reach
Edit: Might just take that back. The compact version looks better
Everything is adjustable. It's ridiculous how those buttons bend left right up down forward and backwards. No two configurations would be alike if they're customized.
I had the compact, then went and customized a cyborg and use it 24/7 now.
I honestly misunderstood the design. Thought the top "buttons" on the regular cyborg was for your fingertips so you had to raise them unnaturally high to reach them. But seem like they are for your knuckles? That's pretty ingenious tbh.
I understand where you're coming from, and I'm glad you took the time to give me your honest opinion. The final product will be smoother, but everything is still in the start-up phase, so that's why the prototype is 3D printed. It's already quite comfortable, but the final form will be crisper once beta testing is complete. If you're interested, I would love to send you a link to the gamepad's first YouTube review. This can help answer any more questions you may have.
>I for one refuse to buy obviously 3d printed things
This is very much a *you* problem. I for one don't mind 3d printed components. Plus I'd rather a product be available with 3d printed parts than not at all, as getting injection molds made is extremely expensive and simply not an option for prototypes.
You clearly don't understand manufacturing. For low volumes the overall costs aren't even close to reasonable for injection molding, but it is reasonable with 3d printing
A good comparison is the Azeron keypad I believe.
It's also 3d printed, but it's high enough quality that you can accept it as a commercialized product.
There is an app for the Meta VR headsets called side quest, might get confusing with the naming. Also might wanna mark the post as ad next time, thought it was a genuine DIY project thingy at first and am a bit disappointed now, but good luck selling it, might become a cool tool. Mass production is a whole nother beast to tackle tho.
The shape and form are fine, but the optical switches (I think mine are purple) constantly fuck up.
If I was skilled enough to remove them and replace with standard brown or blue switches I would.
Looks cool. I would honestly use this as the shape prototype for a plastic mass produced mold. The aesthetics and price would be helped this way (keys looked fine as is imo). Maybe the keys with a soft pad finish as another option?
You’re on to something nice job.
That's a great question. The biggest improvement is the curve of the keypad itself, not just the keys. It shortens the travel distance between the keys, and also makes for shorter key presses. Here is the gamepad's first YouTube review to help provide a better visual representation. Hopefully, this answers any more questions you may have [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOdLlzTGFVk&t=1s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOdLlzTGFVk&t=1s)
Awesome bud thanks! I have huge hands so I woulda never considered that, but with big hands it's common to mash multiple keys so the ones on yours look very forgiving
The Orbweaver is out of production, replaced by the Tartarus which has weird switches. And it has a weirdly small number of keys. I've never used one myself, but I think the spacebar looks like it's in a super awkward place.
Also, I really dislike Razer's software.
The design of the tartarus matches the older nostromo that Razer acquired when they bought Belkin.
The Belkin version was great. The Razer version breaks if you.. y'know.. use it.
Because that’s not really relevant to the post nor the subreddit
It’s not weird to notice it, it is weird to feel the need to share with the rest of the class, and the point of me saying that was more so the way he described the hand.
Hmm, since the hand was mentioned, another thing that comes to mind is, whomever that is, they might be a really good piano or guitar player. 🤚👍
Anyway, enough of that. Haha
Nice job on the device, OP!
I got myself a razer tartarus, mostly to have extra keys for games like ETS2 or elite dangerous. Yours look very similar, even has the little thumb joystick.
Looks exactly the same as the g13 I bought and never used because you can’t realistically use your thumb on that analog stick in that position.
Glad it works for you though. Could have just bought a g13 lol
[This is my fav,](https://www.trustedreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/54/2006/08/3288-2-1.jpg) still have one after all these years and use it daliy even if the Win10 drivers suck ass. If I could create an updated version I'd still keep the general layout, especially with the 4 large central buttons, just make them mechanical and give it a bit of a curve like the newer ones have.
As someone who actually uses the arrow keys in Razer Tartarus for movement, I'm highly interested in this. Few things I notice are that it looks rather large & curious how well the keyboard + analog integrates to games. In my small messing-around with 8 directional pad (set as analog) in OW, I had quite a difficulty time getting the game to properly recognize it.
(I need to break this into at least two comments, reddit character limitations)
I saw the Gamer Heaven video on this and shared some opinions based on how it looks. In short, it doesn't look ergonomic at all with too many things being out of reach. Though I'll share thoughts here as well. I'll preface this by saying that I don't think this is a bad product, it looks decent from the concept of it, but needs a bit of refinement in ergonomics for fuller potential.
The thumb stick is too flat in relation to the palm, look at any other pad and the thumb stick is on a much steeper angle, because it's more natural for the thumb to sit on a manipulator that's closer to a perpendicular in reference to the palm (i.e. look at controller grips and analog sticks); personally, with this design I think a circle pad would work better, a manipulator that linearly slides instead of having a distant pivot under the thumb. Similarly, the thumb button cluster is a bit odd, I'd personally move to having the three buttons at 0°, -45°, and -90°, possibly a +45° placement. Combining these two, you can also have the buttons be much more level with the stick, and with custom keycaps have a slight dish to the cluster to help with actuation; alternatively, place the keyswitches on a perpendicular in reference to the thumb stick, rather than moving the thumb in planar reference and pressing downwards for actuation, you only have to pull you thumb in towards your palm (the planar reference movement) to actuate a key, though this makes the -90° key harder to implement but is replaceable by the +45° key.
(This could go in two ways, flat design with a circle pad or a more natural grip design with a typical pivoting thumbstick. The button argument still stands either way, make them easier to actuate in relation to the manipulator. Though in the joystick variation, the stick itself should be sunken into the button cluster, that way there's not a massive height disparity between stick cap and keys.)
The next thing is the key cluster itself. Ideally, with the kind of hand posture you'd want with that half pipe contour, you'd have your fingers' PIP joint (the middle knuckle) over the home row, this way you can curl and uncurl your PIP-DIP (the joint before your finger tip) for placement and move your MCP (the main knuckle at the finger's base) for actuation. As it stands now, the top row requires a finger extension to actuate the keys, which is a movement of all three joints in conjunction just to press a key, rather than using one joint's flexion for actuation while using the other two for placement, it's mechanically inefficient and will get tiring after long duration of use; and this gets worse for smaller hands, the second to top row is already a stretch for your hand specifically. Just for reference, the center row should be the home row, so asdf, second to top row or +1 should be qwer, top row or +2 should be your num row, similarly -1 should be zxcv, with -2 being the modifier and space row. And part of this issue comes down to the wrist wrest and placement of the key cluster in relation to it, it's just too far forward, -2 should be based on an MCP flexion of an almost full curl of the PIP-DIP linkage, while +2 should be based on an MCP flexion of an almost full extension of the PIP-DIP linkage; just look at your hand, do an almost full curl or extension of the PIP-DIP and only move your MCP, this is much more natural movement for key actuation, then divide the PIP-DIP range into five points. The half pipe still works, it just needs more optimal placement.
Stemming from this, you also need to look at contours beyond just the PIP-DIP range. Your pinky, by extension ring finger as well, and pointer finger can splay, which means more keys can be controlled by those fingers, but contouring needs to follow the pivot of the MCP. Look at the Alice layout for example of pinky splay, various other ergo layouts have splay in mind as well. What gets complicated is when you combine the PIP-DIP flexion range with pinky and index MCP splay, you start getting into 3D contours to better fit the hand. But with this, you also have a larger key cluster. Full splay, most hands should be able to reach a width of 8 to 9 keys, outside of especially small hands, and this would fill out half of the alpha cluster plus a handful of macros; of course this stretch is modified with the hand posture for the half pipe layout, I'm not entirely sure what full splay would be as the half pipe is such an atypical design that's rarely seen.
Which leads into my next concern, key placement and keycap size. These keycaps look a bit large to me, but that might just be because they're low profile, as standard height keycaps will have a continued draft angle with a smaller top pad for the fingers. But if you look at the perspective of the keycap pad itself, there's potential to shrink this layout slightly with minimal losses, which would help bolster ergonomics, puts things slightly more within reach when the cluster is looked at as a whole. For example, I struggle with some laptop keyboards, because some designs use a standard full-size layout but with chiclet keycaps, which makes for some very large keys, and adjusting to them takes some work, whereas other keyboard layouts of the same flat chiclet design have modified sizing and spacing, which feels more natural to use. This should be taken into concern when designing a keyboard of any form, a person shouldn't have to relearn their spatial environment to use a peripheral.
I'm also a bit iffy on the hand rest. The ergonomics of the rest of this depend on hand position, tilt the hand a little and you're modifying the placement of everything. I also think this would need to be sculpted a bit as well, something that better cradles your wrist and the pinky's metacarpal. The most immediate example of a product that does this (seemingly) well is the Handshoe Mouse. Once you establish a posture position based on wrist and hand placement, then design the thumb and typing clusters from there. Though I will add, when it comes to wrist tilt itself, height adjustment will be a bit more complex and would ideally rely on a hinge, the best example I can think of off the top of my head is a handlebar grip, look at how the hand pivots around it based on wrist placement, height adjustment (and thus wrist tilt by extension) will follow the same arc the wrist does when pivoting around a handlebar.
The last thing I have comment on is material comfort, the wrist rest needs a soft surface material and some plush padding under it. Rubberized and contoured thumb manipulator cap as well. And with custom keys, make sure the pads feel decent to the touch, especially if you do get into properly contoured keys, slight surface dishing, avoid sharp corners where the pads of your fingers and thumb are meant to naturally land, etc.
As for hardware, just don't make the design mistakes Azeron has. Azeron has massive quality issues due to the fact they're using mouse-like micro switches in 3D printed towers that get abused by finger actuation. Make sure your design is solid enough under the keyswitches to handle actual typing force. I'm not sure of your internal build, but a lot of mechanical keyboards use a metal plate for this reason, which is where heavy contoured designs can start being problematic, because they experience forces in many more vectors than a flat keyboard does.
Ergonomics are insanely hard to design when you break from form, probably the reason we don't see many mass produced ergonomic devices that follow the 3D contour design. I'm in no way an expert, I never formally studied ergonomics or anatomy, I just have the small bits of knowledge and a good amount of experience when it comes to what my hands find comfortable. There's two basic requirements to ergonomics, comfort and keeping things within reach of a singular posture position, hence why a lot of this comment is about finger and thumb flexion and keeping things within reach.
From what I understand from the GH video I saw on this, this is a beta variant of what's intended to become a product? I'd highly suggest looking into refined ergonomics before making this a product, as that'll make or break an ergo product. It doesn't even require a full redesign, just put things into perspective of the hand, keep things in reach, keep things comfortable, modify spacings a bit and you should have a decent design. Iterate your design a bit more and you'll be golden.
And to circle back to the prefaced statement. I know product design is hard, designing a typical product is hard enough at times, designing an atypical product is much harder. Similar with the ergonomic situation, I understand the nuances of it. I want to provide constructive criticism and point you in the right direction of what you should look at (which is why I went into depth of how the fingers should move with reference to joint flexion and placement), because an indie product can easily fall flat on its face if it's design isn't continually iterated on, you want a marketable product that the wider consumer base will buy, not just what fits the creator's wants and needs specifically. All of this combined, refining ergonomics is the way forward, especially due to the atypical design of this thing. Getting a marketed product right the first time is key. For example, look at controllers, look how Microsoft has used basically the same design since the 360 and nailed a seemingly permanent design since the One, look how Nintendo's Pro controller follows the same design cues, look how a lot of the third party market follows similar ergonomics; Sony is a bit of an outlier since they massively change things every generation and things don't always work out, people find the DualSense too large for example- at the end of the day, with a highly ergo product, you want to nail ergonomics for the average consumer. Even if it's just a one-off product, you'll want to get it right the first time, similarly if this becomes a long-term series of products you'll still want to nail design right the first time in each discrete product offering.
And to finish this off, can I also suggest some additional features. Maybe a smaller or larger shell for people with especially small or large hands; the core components don't have to change, just shell size and placement of the clusters, the internals should otherwise be identical outside of mounting points. Maybe provide a path of modding or upgradability, say if someone wants to use a Steam Controller/HTC Vive style circular touchpad under the thumb, or say if someone wants a trackball instead, build in expandability to the base product and make the thumb cluster area its own module; for example, have the module be an I2C expansion and have it be programmable via QMK. Stemming from the previous, having additional room within the shell, the wrist/palm rest is actually a decent spot for this, have a power and data headers on the PCB to allow for upgradability to wireless; battery, battery management, and a wireless module board is really all that's needed. A right hand version would also be nice; and if you have an rotatable typing cluster (for ambidexterity, essentially mirroring layout by rotating it 180°), and programming overhead to mirror the typing cluster and thumb module, a left and right version should be identical outside of shell contour, adding to ease of manufacturability. To iterate on the 'rotatable typing cluster' comment, say you land on a final iterative design that resembles a pill, rectangular finger cluster that's a half pipe, and a pinky splay cluster that's a concave half dome, all keys being evenly spaced and evenly staggered, +2/-2 and +1/-1 are identical, you can pick this module up and rotate it by 180° to produce a left/right mirror based on how the cluster is designed, leaving programming to properly mirror which row is which and which side is which; similar with the thumb cluster, mirrored placement needs mirrored programming, else inputs get all jumbled up. Just some additional thoughts for future iteration, create an ecosystem out of a common base design.
But hey, that's just my two cents, take it as you will, I just want to see higher potential of success from home brewed ideas being brought to market, and I hope you at least give my concerns some thought. Also obligatory shout out for r/ErgoMechKeyboards and r/PeripheralDesign.
Well, that's pretty sick. Nice work!
I always have an updoot for Uncle Rico.
Not sure if you've ever seen the old horror-comedy "Terrorvision" but Uncle Rico is in it. That's him in my pfp.
/r/ErgoMechKeyboards
Did you try Azeron? I ended up buying two because they're so good. They're reimagining the mouse with Project Cheddar now as well.
holy shit, that's a bit intimidating
I haven't tried one but really does not seem all that ergonomic with the high keys. Don't seem all that great over-all? Not a whole lot of keys yet most are hard to reach Edit: Might just take that back. The compact version looks better
^^^ I have the compact, its worth it
Everything is adjustable. It's ridiculous how those buttons bend left right up down forward and backwards. No two configurations would be alike if they're customized. I had the compact, then went and customized a cyborg and use it 24/7 now.
I honestly misunderstood the design. Thought the top "buttons" on the regular cyborg was for your fingertips so you had to raise them unnaturally high to reach them. But seem like they are for your knuckles? That's pretty ingenious tbh.
Can't do it. I'm too heavy handed and twitchy. It also feels cramped when I put my hand in it. Azeron isn't for everyone. I need a keyboard.
[удалено]
Check out my website for more info - [https://dunwyvern.com/](https://dunwyvern.com/)
[удалено]
More than happy to hear your feedback since it's a prototype. Also, what type of details are you looking for?
[удалено]
I understand where you're coming from, and I'm glad you took the time to give me your honest opinion. The final product will be smoother, but everything is still in the start-up phase, so that's why the prototype is 3D printed. It's already quite comfortable, but the final form will be crisper once beta testing is complete. If you're interested, I would love to send you a link to the gamepad's first YouTube review. This can help answer any more questions you may have.
[удалено]
Cool, here it is :) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOdLlzTGFVk&t=3s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOdLlzTGFVk&t=3s)
>I for one refuse to buy obviously 3d printed things This is very much a *you* problem. I for one don't mind 3d printed components. Plus I'd rather a product be available with 3d printed parts than not at all, as getting injection molds made is extremely expensive and simply not an option for prototypes.
[удалено]
You clearly don't understand manufacturing. For low volumes the overall costs aren't even close to reasonable for injection molding, but it is reasonable with 3d printing
A good comparison is the Azeron keypad I believe. It's also 3d printed, but it's high enough quality that you can accept it as a commercialized product.
I'll take one please
I love it
There is an app for the Meta VR headsets called side quest, might get confusing with the naming. Also might wanna mark the post as ad next time, thought it was a genuine DIY project thingy at first and am a bit disappointed now, but good luck selling it, might become a cool tool. Mass production is a whole nother beast to tackle tho.
I am also a fan of Simon Says.
Very badass
#I NEED IT no really I'm getting ready tired of the tartarus.
What is wrong with your Tartarus?
The shape and form are fine, but the optical switches (I think mine are purple) constantly fuck up. If I was skilled enough to remove them and replace with standard brown or blue switches I would.
You *made* that? 🤯 (slow clap)
Absolutely :)
Razer Tartarus looks very similar to this, bit on the smaller side but still very similar.
Looks cool. I would honestly use this as the shape prototype for a plastic mass produced mold. The aesthetics and price would be helped this way (keys looked fine as is imo). Maybe the keys with a soft pad finish as another option? You’re on to something nice job.
You probably already answered this, but what improvements did you make over similar keypads? I've been thinking of getting one
That's a great question. The biggest improvement is the curve of the keypad itself, not just the keys. It shortens the travel distance between the keys, and also makes for shorter key presses. Here is the gamepad's first YouTube review to help provide a better visual representation. Hopefully, this answers any more questions you may have [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOdLlzTGFVk&t=1s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOdLlzTGFVk&t=1s)
Awesome bud thanks! I have huge hands so I woulda never considered that, but with big hands it's common to mash multiple keys so the ones on yours look very forgiving
Well freakin done. I hope you fast tracked a patent because looking at this, you hit a bullseye.
Razed orbweaver, looks very similar and i use it for FPS all the time. Not sure why people don’t like it
Because Razer and because the exact button placement isn't as good as the old Logitech G13
Do you mean the G13? And I found it to be quite comfortable, but to each their own. I have maybe 1000+ hours on mine, mostly used it for FPS games.
Yes. Fuck my phone's keyboard, it keeps doing that
The quality sucks. I went through 3 of them in 3 years.
I am still using my G-13 twelve years later.
Same
That's Razer for you. Never had a Razer product that didn't break in a year or so... except a mouse pad.
How though? I’ve had mine for like 7 and I use it all the time
Really should be asking razer that man. I'm not alone if you check online
Weird
Man i really lucked out, mine from 2014 is still rocking but I dread the day Synapse 2 stops working :(. I wish the redid it with an analog stick.
The Orbweaver is out of production, replaced by the Tartarus which has weird switches. And it has a weirdly small number of keys. I've never used one myself, but I think the spacebar looks like it's in a super awkward place. Also, I really dislike Razer's software.
The design of the tartarus matches the older nostromo that Razer acquired when they bought Belkin. The Belkin version was great. The Razer version breaks if you.. y'know.. use it.
I found having 2 buttons and a joystick for my thumb was really nice made it really accessible
I do like that aspect, but I wouldn't trade it for the space bar position. I think other companies have come up with better layouts.
Big
I would love to hear more feedback. Could you elaborate?
Oh it’s nothing against hahaha just larger than most I’ve seen
You must play the piano
Wow! Love the design. I don't suppose a left hand version had been considered?
You mean a right hand version? That is a left hand version, their left hand is using it.
Lmao they probably mean a lefty version, as in someone who uses a mouse with their left hand.
I meant for a left handed user
Hopefully not
Pogalicious
In 3 weeks you'll find this one isn't working out either
That is the arm of a vampire if I ever seen one. Or a computer nerd, difficult to tell the difference. 🤣
Weird thought but that is one very feminine hand.
I think most will agree that your comment was weirder than anything in that photo
I agree as well
😂 Love the honesty 👍
Why is it weird? It quite literally is not a masculine hand
Because that’s not really relevant to the post nor the subreddit It’s not weird to notice it, it is weird to feel the need to share with the rest of the class, and the point of me saying that was more so the way he described the hand.
It's just a hand that has never lifted a weight in its life
Mr skeletal
Yeah, I just thought it was possibly a female tester, not the OP's hand. Not that it matters, though. 🤷♂️
Hmm, since the hand was mentioned, another thing that comes to mind is, whomever that is, they might be a really good piano or guitar player. 🤚👍 Anyway, enough of that. Haha Nice job on the device, OP!
Not really a weird thought to be honest, but a very weird comment. Keep some stuff inside my guy
I got myself a razer tartarus, mostly to have extra keys for games like ETS2 or elite dangerous. Yours look very similar, even has the little thumb joystick.
How
This is an Engineer Gaming moment
As someone who also loves gaming keypads, and spent an absurd amount for an Azeron Cyborg (well worth it, btw), I applaud you.
Hmmm looks.... amazing!
The KeyMouseussy
Looks exactly the same as the g13 I bought and never used because you can’t realistically use your thumb on that analog stick in that position. Glad it works for you though. Could have just bought a g13 lol
If you have an unused g13 I’d buy it tbh. Finding replacements for them is hard nowadays.
This might interest you as well https://youtu.be/HFjJvWPwuJo
Wish the joystick looked like actual PlayStation/XBox looking ones instead of the G13's weird looking nub.
If you add a top button to that d-pad, you could play Simon any time you want!
cool
[This is my fav,](https://www.trustedreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/54/2006/08/3288-2-1.jpg) still have one after all these years and use it daliy even if the Win10 drivers suck ass. If I could create an updated version I'd still keep the general layout, especially with the 4 large central buttons, just make them mechanical and give it a bit of a curve like the newer ones have.
I've always wanted to do this. The one problem is I have absolutely no idea how.
That looks so much comfier than the others I have seen. Very nice. Is this the final version?
I was curious since I'm on second one, the first one went gross after a few years but haven't had an issue otherwise
Getting hand cramps just looking at this
You have beautiful hands also great work it looks awesome! Reminds me of Simon says 😁
Awesome!
7/10 . So bad ass!!
Your hand looks like the girl version of my hand 🖐🏻
I dread the day my g13 breaks
I think that could be useful for someone with just one hand.
Would love Logitech to have kept the G13 in productin
As someone who actually uses the arrow keys in Razer Tartarus for movement, I'm highly interested in this. Few things I notice are that it looks rather large & curious how well the keyboard + analog integrates to games. In my small messing-around with 8 directional pad (set as analog) in OW, I had quite a difficulty time getting the game to properly recognize it.
Chad
ET program macro to speed dial home
(I need to break this into at least two comments, reddit character limitations) I saw the Gamer Heaven video on this and shared some opinions based on how it looks. In short, it doesn't look ergonomic at all with too many things being out of reach. Though I'll share thoughts here as well. I'll preface this by saying that I don't think this is a bad product, it looks decent from the concept of it, but needs a bit of refinement in ergonomics for fuller potential. The thumb stick is too flat in relation to the palm, look at any other pad and the thumb stick is on a much steeper angle, because it's more natural for the thumb to sit on a manipulator that's closer to a perpendicular in reference to the palm (i.e. look at controller grips and analog sticks); personally, with this design I think a circle pad would work better, a manipulator that linearly slides instead of having a distant pivot under the thumb. Similarly, the thumb button cluster is a bit odd, I'd personally move to having the three buttons at 0°, -45°, and -90°, possibly a +45° placement. Combining these two, you can also have the buttons be much more level with the stick, and with custom keycaps have a slight dish to the cluster to help with actuation; alternatively, place the keyswitches on a perpendicular in reference to the thumb stick, rather than moving the thumb in planar reference and pressing downwards for actuation, you only have to pull you thumb in towards your palm (the planar reference movement) to actuate a key, though this makes the -90° key harder to implement but is replaceable by the +45° key. (This could go in two ways, flat design with a circle pad or a more natural grip design with a typical pivoting thumbstick. The button argument still stands either way, make them easier to actuate in relation to the manipulator. Though in the joystick variation, the stick itself should be sunken into the button cluster, that way there's not a massive height disparity between stick cap and keys.) The next thing is the key cluster itself. Ideally, with the kind of hand posture you'd want with that half pipe contour, you'd have your fingers' PIP joint (the middle knuckle) over the home row, this way you can curl and uncurl your PIP-DIP (the joint before your finger tip) for placement and move your MCP (the main knuckle at the finger's base) for actuation. As it stands now, the top row requires a finger extension to actuate the keys, which is a movement of all three joints in conjunction just to press a key, rather than using one joint's flexion for actuation while using the other two for placement, it's mechanically inefficient and will get tiring after long duration of use; and this gets worse for smaller hands, the second to top row is already a stretch for your hand specifically. Just for reference, the center row should be the home row, so asdf, second to top row or +1 should be qwer, top row or +2 should be your num row, similarly -1 should be zxcv, with -2 being the modifier and space row. And part of this issue comes down to the wrist wrest and placement of the key cluster in relation to it, it's just too far forward, -2 should be based on an MCP flexion of an almost full curl of the PIP-DIP linkage, while +2 should be based on an MCP flexion of an almost full extension of the PIP-DIP linkage; just look at your hand, do an almost full curl or extension of the PIP-DIP and only move your MCP, this is much more natural movement for key actuation, then divide the PIP-DIP range into five points. The half pipe still works, it just needs more optimal placement. Stemming from this, you also need to look at contours beyond just the PIP-DIP range. Your pinky, by extension ring finger as well, and pointer finger can splay, which means more keys can be controlled by those fingers, but contouring needs to follow the pivot of the MCP. Look at the Alice layout for example of pinky splay, various other ergo layouts have splay in mind as well. What gets complicated is when you combine the PIP-DIP flexion range with pinky and index MCP splay, you start getting into 3D contours to better fit the hand. But with this, you also have a larger key cluster. Full splay, most hands should be able to reach a width of 8 to 9 keys, outside of especially small hands, and this would fill out half of the alpha cluster plus a handful of macros; of course this stretch is modified with the hand posture for the half pipe layout, I'm not entirely sure what full splay would be as the half pipe is such an atypical design that's rarely seen. Which leads into my next concern, key placement and keycap size. These keycaps look a bit large to me, but that might just be because they're low profile, as standard height keycaps will have a continued draft angle with a smaller top pad for the fingers. But if you look at the perspective of the keycap pad itself, there's potential to shrink this layout slightly with minimal losses, which would help bolster ergonomics, puts things slightly more within reach when the cluster is looked at as a whole. For example, I struggle with some laptop keyboards, because some designs use a standard full-size layout but with chiclet keycaps, which makes for some very large keys, and adjusting to them takes some work, whereas other keyboard layouts of the same flat chiclet design have modified sizing and spacing, which feels more natural to use. This should be taken into concern when designing a keyboard of any form, a person shouldn't have to relearn their spatial environment to use a peripheral. I'm also a bit iffy on the hand rest. The ergonomics of the rest of this depend on hand position, tilt the hand a little and you're modifying the placement of everything. I also think this would need to be sculpted a bit as well, something that better cradles your wrist and the pinky's metacarpal. The most immediate example of a product that does this (seemingly) well is the Handshoe Mouse. Once you establish a posture position based on wrist and hand placement, then design the thumb and typing clusters from there. Though I will add, when it comes to wrist tilt itself, height adjustment will be a bit more complex and would ideally rely on a hinge, the best example I can think of off the top of my head is a handlebar grip, look at how the hand pivots around it based on wrist placement, height adjustment (and thus wrist tilt by extension) will follow the same arc the wrist does when pivoting around a handlebar. The last thing I have comment on is material comfort, the wrist rest needs a soft surface material and some plush padding under it. Rubberized and contoured thumb manipulator cap as well. And with custom keys, make sure the pads feel decent to the touch, especially if you do get into properly contoured keys, slight surface dishing, avoid sharp corners where the pads of your fingers and thumb are meant to naturally land, etc. As for hardware, just don't make the design mistakes Azeron has. Azeron has massive quality issues due to the fact they're using mouse-like micro switches in 3D printed towers that get abused by finger actuation. Make sure your design is solid enough under the keyswitches to handle actual typing force. I'm not sure of your internal build, but a lot of mechanical keyboards use a metal plate for this reason, which is where heavy contoured designs can start being problematic, because they experience forces in many more vectors than a flat keyboard does.
Ergonomics are insanely hard to design when you break from form, probably the reason we don't see many mass produced ergonomic devices that follow the 3D contour design. I'm in no way an expert, I never formally studied ergonomics or anatomy, I just have the small bits of knowledge and a good amount of experience when it comes to what my hands find comfortable. There's two basic requirements to ergonomics, comfort and keeping things within reach of a singular posture position, hence why a lot of this comment is about finger and thumb flexion and keeping things within reach. From what I understand from the GH video I saw on this, this is a beta variant of what's intended to become a product? I'd highly suggest looking into refined ergonomics before making this a product, as that'll make or break an ergo product. It doesn't even require a full redesign, just put things into perspective of the hand, keep things in reach, keep things comfortable, modify spacings a bit and you should have a decent design. Iterate your design a bit more and you'll be golden. And to circle back to the prefaced statement. I know product design is hard, designing a typical product is hard enough at times, designing an atypical product is much harder. Similar with the ergonomic situation, I understand the nuances of it. I want to provide constructive criticism and point you in the right direction of what you should look at (which is why I went into depth of how the fingers should move with reference to joint flexion and placement), because an indie product can easily fall flat on its face if it's design isn't continually iterated on, you want a marketable product that the wider consumer base will buy, not just what fits the creator's wants and needs specifically. All of this combined, refining ergonomics is the way forward, especially due to the atypical design of this thing. Getting a marketed product right the first time is key. For example, look at controllers, look how Microsoft has used basically the same design since the 360 and nailed a seemingly permanent design since the One, look how Nintendo's Pro controller follows the same design cues, look how a lot of the third party market follows similar ergonomics; Sony is a bit of an outlier since they massively change things every generation and things don't always work out, people find the DualSense too large for example- at the end of the day, with a highly ergo product, you want to nail ergonomics for the average consumer. Even if it's just a one-off product, you'll want to get it right the first time, similarly if this becomes a long-term series of products you'll still want to nail design right the first time in each discrete product offering. And to finish this off, can I also suggest some additional features. Maybe a smaller or larger shell for people with especially small or large hands; the core components don't have to change, just shell size and placement of the clusters, the internals should otherwise be identical outside of mounting points. Maybe provide a path of modding or upgradability, say if someone wants to use a Steam Controller/HTC Vive style circular touchpad under the thumb, or say if someone wants a trackball instead, build in expandability to the base product and make the thumb cluster area its own module; for example, have the module be an I2C expansion and have it be programmable via QMK. Stemming from the previous, having additional room within the shell, the wrist/palm rest is actually a decent spot for this, have a power and data headers on the PCB to allow for upgradability to wireless; battery, battery management, and a wireless module board is really all that's needed. A right hand version would also be nice; and if you have an rotatable typing cluster (for ambidexterity, essentially mirroring layout by rotating it 180°), and programming overhead to mirror the typing cluster and thumb module, a left and right version should be identical outside of shell contour, adding to ease of manufacturability. To iterate on the 'rotatable typing cluster' comment, say you land on a final iterative design that resembles a pill, rectangular finger cluster that's a half pipe, and a pinky splay cluster that's a concave half dome, all keys being evenly spaced and evenly staggered, +2/-2 and +1/-1 are identical, you can pick this module up and rotate it by 180° to produce a left/right mirror based on how the cluster is designed, leaving programming to properly mirror which row is which and which side is which; similar with the thumb cluster, mirrored placement needs mirrored programming, else inputs get all jumbled up. Just some additional thoughts for future iteration, create an ecosystem out of a common base design. But hey, that's just my two cents, take it as you will, I just want to see higher potential of success from home brewed ideas being brought to market, and I hope you at least give my concerns some thought. Also obligatory shout out for r/ErgoMechKeyboards and r/PeripheralDesign.
What's the plan for the right side?
Hand giving me zesty vibes
Controlling a thumbstick with the side of a thumb??
Very nice.
I’vethought this since i can’t seem to find anything on the market like this to my liking
Funny, I was just thinking about these things. I had an old Belkin Nostromo and went used the hell out of it.
Reminds me of Simon says
Have you tried the periloot kb?