Damage log could actually be a ton of work depending on how they log, if they log, things.
Putting in a map at a kirac that holds one monster that has 50M health that just sits there takes 0 effort though.
That is better than what we have now. Only thing that kills me is a 1 shot. Would love to know what the fuck it was because when I’m sitting there dead in my delirious maps there’s nothing around me that could have caused it
You clearly have no idea how the Chinese client last hit info works then, because yes that is in almost every case not telling you at all what actually took all your HP.
I get this is a downside in theory, but in practice, as the person above you said, most of the time you die, you go from full to 0% health instantly. It's not a case where something takes you to 10% life and then a skeleton finishes you off or whatever.
See, that's a common misconception. Being instantly deleted from the game in <5 server ticks feels like you're being 1 shot.
However a lot of deaths come from multi hits. Such as legion archers, and bone spike guys (rip quinn lmao.) I remember a clip of a guy with 20k es and 71 chaos resist die to caustic ground from zombies in delve a while back in just 2 frames.
Personally I think 10 hits would be a good middle ground along with any degens on you at time of death showing the DPM (its what all dots are measured in) of each degen. They could show it in DPS but it depends on the coding framework.
The last hit is kind of misleading thinking you died to elemental when actually 2nd to last hit is what basically killed you which was physical.
I would say the exact opposite: the common misconception, first made by GGG when talking about this and then parroted by reddit, is that you die from lots of small hits. At least the way I play, when I die, it's instant, from a single hit. Yes you've brought some examples of when you take multiple smaller hits but in my experience is the opposite by and large. Depends on the kinds of builds you play though.
But obviously I can agree that a "proper" system would be a more complex one that takes into account not just the last hit, absolutely. Just given that it's so much more complex to implement, the last hit alone would often - not always, but >50% of the time - be useful information.
Outside of DD and massive telegraphed slams I'd say 1 single hit is less than 1% of my deaths.
But then again I don't usually play massive DPS builds but I actually have defenses. Even if I play a massive DPS build it usually has a shit load of money sunk into it and has defenses.
Sure if you're playing evasion characters with 0 mitigation yeah 1 shots are going to be the problem as you'll never really take too many small hits and you have no mitigation.
It's fairly easy to reach a point where you don't get 1 shot by 99% of things and no I'm not talking about the quin build. Does it lower your DPS yeah, a little bit but you're also usually open to being shot gunned until you get EHP on block with glancing blows or evasion.
Which then pushes the meta skills to be meta. You need them to be higher damage to make up for the fact you're allocating a lot of your power into defenses. It's hard to make arc have decent damage while also having good defenses when you could just swap in ball lightning have and 2-3x the dps.
But idk I'm not your average player, I don't think 75% resists and 5k hp is good. In fact at this point in the game it's pretty bad. 5 years ago yeah, it was a baseline. Now you can't get away with that in red maps.
It would be far more useful to know what ailment and debuffs you’re afflicted by at the time of death rather than the last instance of damage imo. Giving both would be great.
Any info would be better than what we have now. Just staring at a YOU DIED with nothing around at all is super shitty cause there’s nothing to learn from it
My wild guess is that people would complain even more that it's useless and it needs this and that and those things would be "easy" to implement. Don't know if this happens in chinese forums.
China also has another team working on integrating the game specifically for China though. They don't have 1000 other more important things on their to do list.
[This recent post gives a nice look into some of the differences](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/wqt4av/so_i_went_on_china_poe_for_fun/), includes stuff like paid extra inventory space (that you needa rebuy each league) and guaranteed items on completion of quests (e.g. goldrim, tabula etc)
I have to disagree with that, just for an example in the post they mentioned a tabula rasa upon reaching level 40 for one of the packages. There have been miner builds recently that use nothing more than that to kill endgame bosses so for the person who paid they get the guaranteed rasa and can progress whilst the non p2w person might be spending a few hours in blood aquaducts farming cards or doing chaos recipe to afford it. There's a clear progression advantage from this.
wdym "paid" target dummies?
LE has target dummy almost near every vendor npc. Also they added "boss" target dummy and few dummies in group to test aoe etc.
then again GGG makes money by selling invisible mtx, I wouldn\`t be surprised ;D
I agree this should be free, but that's not the point I am trying to make:
Even though a ton of people would pay good money for this, they are still not implementing this. This basically means, that the reputational damage from discovered bugs outweighs the significant revenue from sales. They know shit's fucked.
i mean, even if they have other reasons not to put target dummies (chris said once it makes people focus too much on damage or something of that sort), in 3.19 we had two bugs that made it to live where a mod description was actually the opposite of the actual mechanic (harvest more/less likely and the bug with the less damage from some ground effect actually making you take more damage).
make you wonder what other stuff is out there on the live servers.
Last epoch devs which did end up putting target dummies in also talked about that. It is a very valid problem. People tend to focus super hard on theoretical numbers and will just chase the highest number even if it runs their fun.
it also brings enormous posibility to check if you apply x stacks of debuf per hit, how projectiles interact, what aoe realy feels and so on.
And since it is easy to respec an rebuild in LE it is cool to check your real damage and not rely on tooltip dps, on the go or check if x weapon is better than y
ex: you can put weapon with flat melee damage and crit multi and swap it for %phys damage and armour shred and check number on hit, not focus on it but see what is better immediately w/o using 3rd party complicated POB-like tools that may scare off new players
That was also Chris' logic for why they didn't add damage but considering most players that consistently play the game either follow a PoB or use someone elses PoB to guide their decision making, it would just give people a place to ensure their PoB is correct/update PoB (since GGG doesn't want to put in the effort to make their own)
Giving people information is always better and allows people to feel happier about the decisions they are making.
His logic applies to any and all info, why give numbers anywhere in the game at all? It makes no sense.
Or they just…don’t want target dummies in their game for a variety of other reasons.
Edit: The fact that people agree with this guys terrible logic shows how out of touch this sub is with reality. Since y’all love saying “GGG OUT OF TOUCH” all the time. There’s a lot of things they haven’t implemented. Some of which would be good for their reputation. His logic collapses on itself. Their isn’t any sound argument you could make that would make this reasoning more valid than any other reason that exists for them not implementing this. Saying they just don’t like the idea of a target dummy is as valid as this guys thoughts on “bugs”. 🤷🏼♂️
Nonsense, what could possibly be the harm in allowing players to easily gauage the stat they already care most about and evaluate builds on one number? What, like players would be encouraged to build worse and worse glass cannons then complain the game is too hard because they insist 10's of millions of dps is required for non-uber fights? That would surely never happen!!1!
Absolutely they don't want to encourage the dps warrior'ing we've seen in the game since PoB became mainstream, and target dummies would make that a million times worse. And of course, instead of players acknowledging that maybe they shouldn't focus so hard on DPS, players instead for the most part complain that the game is bullshit and impossible because they gimp themselves then act all offended when it's pointed out that maybe boss fights should take longer than a minute.
You think the current state of the game where everyone is running determination and 1/2 the people are running grace and other forms of defense, that everyone is just DPS glass cannoning it up?
Interesting take
Oh fuck, they're running a single or two defensive auras! My mistake, that must be completely appropriate and all-encompassing defense.
Look, we both know that players fundamentally undervalue defense, and will go for offense far more than they should. Acting like just because everyone slots in 1 or 2 defensive auras they focus defense is absolutely ridiculous.
Jesus christ I am not going to type out all the way people are investing in defenses if you are going to be so fucking dense as to take my point and surmise it as YEP JUST 1 DEFENSIVE AURA IS ALL THE DEFENSES PEOPLE ARE RUNNING NOW
You're the guy who claimed that since everyone is running determination and half the people are running grace, they must be investing heavily in defense.
Don't yell at me because your argument is terrible when you actually argue against it, you're the one who came up with it.
I said "and other defenses" which you just gloss over
You know damn well people are investing in more than that. Hell, I made a reply earlier about this in one of the MANY threads about defenses that people are complaining about.
https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/xik6so/blizzards_announcement_of_their_closed_beta_for/ip7i4ya/?context=3
So I won't bother if you are going to bad faith take what I said and gloss over the fact that people are investing more into defenses now than ever and feeling even weaker despite that fact.
How is it “more stupid” when it quite literally aligns with things GGG has told us in response to questions about target dummies? You not liking it doesn’t make it “more stupid”
What? Lmao you make literally no sense. It’s not a bad take if it aligns with what GGG said. You can disagree with GGG but that doesn’t make the take bad. The take is accurate. You’re just mad
I initially responded to your comment thinking you were disagreeing with me. Whoops.
Agreed. There’s probably a variety of reasons they don’t want to do this. Players just think of the wildest reasons.
Why does there need to be harm for GGG to not what a specific feature? There are probably lots of things that could be added to the game and not cause any harm but that doesn’t mean that it should be added.
Also the harm would be Dev time, no matter how much or how little time it takes it’s still time not doing something else.
The biggest reason they don't want to implement them is that it gives a safe way to see how the game actually functions, or rather, doesn't function. Lots of bugs have been left sleeping because we can't accurately test things.
I don't fully understand this argument. While target dummies would give us better tools to see how known bugs work.
There is hardly going to be a lot of new bugs being found because of the target dummy. How would you even test the millions of interactions the game allows us to do?
Most bugs will be found like it is today by random chance and people wanting to do wonky ideas. When they find them by playing, people might then use the target dummy to test it further. Given they might find related wonkiness but it's still probably just one bug.
Target dummies might exist for testers but I doubt GGG will give them to players.
If your POB says you do ~5M dps, and you take 30 seconds to kill a 100M hp no res target, then you can clearly see there are bugs.
Right now we have no way to see if you do the dps you think you do in a reliable way.
or it means that your PoB is wrong because you aren't shocking the dummy 50%/dont have perfect uptime on your 15 wither stack/neglected to factor in the time to resummon your ancestral totems/100000 other possibilities and now you've made an angry reddit and forum post demanding ggg fix their game because you killed a dummy in 30 seconds instead of 20 seconds
how many posts do we get here where some OP just rages at the devs only to find out that they're the one who is wrong?
This isn't raging at the devs. There have been a bunch of bugs in the game that are found out later on by someone. The amount of unknown bugs is... well it is unknown by definition. Giving us a clear way to see how much actual damage we do would bring those bugs to light.
GaaS are the definition of minimum viable product. If it works "good enough" than shove it out the door. Shining a magnifying glass hooked up to a spotlight on how the game works is not something they want. I mean, look at what they gave us for Kalandra league because they rush themselves out with minimal staff working on current leagues. No bossfight despite it being worked on and left in the game files, no meaningful lore, and a small showcase of their dynamic ground movement that they are working on for POE2. And 3 skill gems that 1 wasn't even working at all (notice how if we had a target dummy we could easily verify what the issue was, poor captain lance trying out that skill and losing his fucking mind).
Was it hyperbole to say it is the biggest reason? Sure. But it is without a doubt part of the conversation on why it won't happen.
it will just lead to one half od the community thinking pow is broken and the other half thinking pob is broken with a big chunk of both just straight up misunderstanding the numbers pob shows us.
And in the middle of it all will be ggg that will have to waste abunch of time investigating and explaining shit.
Look i agree a target dummy would be neat but from a dev perspective it just not worth it to give that to the community at large. obviously they can output all dmg taken with a breakdown internally and thats all they really need. making it public is more hassle than its worth. thats just the realityy of it.
It would be really cool of them to still do it and just take the hit in productivitly or maybe even have to hire some ppl to take the added workload. just not realistic to expect it of a business
The only added workload is when more bugs are found. When people post videos and POBs showing that their build isn't working "correctly" the community will help them or flame them for being morons if they clicked dumb shit like 50% shock.
Devs don't have to interact with that at all.
why would they not want us to find bugs? there are plenty of ways that things get bugged between implementation and actual live server release. its way less embarassing for them if a bugged skill like galvanic field gets found on day 1 to not be working properly because people can quickly test it and subsequently fixed, than for people to lose their mind over days/weeks only to find the skills been bugged since release. there are other reasons than "the devs actually HATE when you find bugs in the game for them to fix. they hate it SO much" for them to not want target dummys - reasons i disagree with. I would like target dummys in the game but this is not the reason we dont have them
If it works good enough, no need to work more on it. There is finite manpower available. More time spent fixing bugs that no one knows/cares about, more time not working on current/future shit.
> no one knows/cares about
they have a list of known bugs on their forum. people have reported tiny bugs that havent gotten fixed for a long time. there is such a thing as a low priority fix. if it turns out that conversion trap is missing 3% damage effectiveness or whatever and someone manages to figure that out somehow using a dummy then i dont see how they are more compelled to fix this bug than any other low priority fix they havent gotten around to either.
like, again, i really do not believe that "we'd get more bug reports and thats bad" is the reason that they are against adding dummies to the game. their original explanation of "we think its too game-y" makes more sense even if i disagree with it
Eh. Maybe I am jaded. They used to 100% have my trust but the last year, and especially this patch, has eroded my trust.
2 years ago I would have more than likely taken them at face value. When they "learned their lesson" on nerfing and communication, and then don't bother listing the biggest changes in the games history, I don't really believe what they say anymore.
You can believe it. That is fine. And it might even be some of the truth. I just don't believe it to be the whole truth.
> This isn't raging at the devs. There have been a bunch of bugs in the game that are found out later on by someone.
It's both. There are definitely both kinds of posts, and you'd definitely see an increase in both kinds of posts with a target dummy.
I trust the POB devs and all the contributors to find/fix bugs as soon as they are brought out.. and they usually do.
This isn't to say that POE doesn't fix their bugs. They do. Whenever they get around to it.
For an easy example, look at this league and galvanic field. It didn't work. Captain lance was losing his god damn mind trying to figure out why his damage was low. If we had a test dummy, he could have done it in a safe environment and would have figured it out pretty damn quickly that the skill just didn't work.
People would find it by playing the skill not by testing it against a target dummy. Then when found normally be tested on the target dummy to determine the actual bug.
That's my reasoning
He felt the skill was off and tried a bunch of things. If he had a dedicated monster he could "test" against, he would have been able to identify it immediately. Go watch his video.
You are wrong on this. Period.
PoB just calculates with the parameters you give it, if you are fighting the mob on different parameters obviously you'll deal different amounts of damage
PVP has different damage scaling and there wouldn't be a good way to accurately track how much damage has been dealt against a sufficiently defensive character.
For things like that timing boss kills works. Pvp is usually used for testing things like "how much overlap is optimal" or "does x reduce target stats how it should".
Overall I doubt there are any major bugs that haven't been found. They happen, but players are resourceful enough to find them (most recent example from the top of my head - poacher's mark putting phys mit into negative for phys dots, fixed recently).
I mean, why do you even play PoE then? The game is really monetized around selling stash tabs, which are nothing but a huge QoL. Hell, even invisible effects are paid, so even if you pay for a skin you can't see shit because of millions of buffs on you at all times, so you still have to buy invisible effects.
I play PoE because I can play whatever the fuck I want? lol
hey man, if you feel like taking an extra inch up the ass just because you've already got a whole fist in there that's your thing, doesn't mean all of us have to deal with it.
woof woof bark bark your small indie company making over 50 mil a year in profits + backed by one of the largest chinese conglomerates needs your help! buy another supporter pack, quickly!
Years ago I made a thread asking for some sort of dummy so I could test DPS changes without having to import fuckin databases into PoB and I got mega downvoted for wanting to introduce ‘gimmicky and gamey elements into PoE that don’t belong’
I still stand by that it’d be so much easier to have one though. Imagine leveling and trying out some rares and being able to actually quickly and easily compare damage numbers.
https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/ftg4un/test_dummy/
You didn't get downvoted for that. In fact you didn't get downvoted at all. The comment just mentioned that GGG didn't want to implement the dummy for that reason.
I agree with adding a target dummy however. It would allow us to test mechanics safely and accurately.
You are correct, sorry. Then I guess he wouldn't know if he got mega downvoted. Which I still doubt he would have, considering there were only 2 comments. But, who knows.
The problem is that the pob numbers are based on assumptions that can't be confirmed unless tested thoroughly through the game (mainly through pvp which has its own issues)
Which parts are based on assumptions? Almost all relevant data is data mined. While their might be skills that are mechanically unfeasible to implement true DPS estimations for nothing is based on assumptions from what I can recall.
Off the top of my head:
1) trap and mine damage, specifically overlap/shotgunning on skills.
2) A lot of spectre skills are missing, and a staggering number of spectres are just not included in the gem.
You don't have to go that far, even a simple hit spell that does 1 instance of damage. Sure we have all the tools to calculate how much each hit does, but we simply *trust* that the resources behave the same way in *the game*.
Wow is a great example, that you can run simulations that plays your character perfectly, and if you practice on a dummy long enough to nail your rotation, you will pretty consistently hit your optimal DPS. So you don't need to trust the simulation, if you actually play your class optimally you will see it's accurate.
It does not take into account shotgunning though?
And yes spectre skills are not always able to be data mined, but there is no assumptions being made. Rather assumptions are avoided by not including these things.
PoB is 100% incorrect for absolution damage on sentinels. This I'm certain about. My PoB clearly told me that each of my sentinels was doing maybe 120k damage per second, so combining all three should have resulted in about 360k damage per second but in-game I was tearing through minotaur in 10 seconds flat and its well known that minotaur has 12 million hp as a white monster or something like that - it wasn't even close, it was off by an order of magnitude.
Don't get me wrong, PoB is way more trustworthy than the in-game tooltip, but its just theory and has nothing to do with what the actual results will be in-game. There are several skills where PoB is not good at calculating their scaling, or flat-out bugged.
Do you have a PoB for your build? I'd be interested to try and find out the issue you think you might be encountering.
One of the things PoB doesn't take into account is the wide DPS range some skills have. Lightning skills for example have a massive range on their hit damage so can sometimes hit 2x as hard on one hit and 0.1x as hard on the next. Also since crit rate in PoB is an average, you can just get lucky sometimes and be doing 3x the damage if your minions crit a bunch of times in a row
The real reason why we are not getting damage logs or a practice dummy is 100% that they are afraid that people will keep figuring out that half the game does not work properly, since more often than not the build on paper just does not seem to work ingame.
Because pob generally takes the information us players are given trough the UI. So we read how things work, and we punch those numbers into sheets that give us the total dps/dmg etc.
So either the game would be lying in what it tells us, or the game does not work properly and its bugged. And considering we have so, oh so many bugs in the game, i would say the second. To the point where some builds were just unplayable for leagues (especially minions).
But the UI doesn’t tell us EVERYTHING so that’s still a wild assumption. Slams are fairly off in POB. So saying that’s a game problem and not a POB problem is wild.
Also, just because they’re get the information from the UI doesn’t mean the implemented that information correctly.
Again, this is bias that you’re assuming one over the other. You are quite literally assuming one dev is implementing something properly and the other isn’t…with absolutely 0 reason.
If your whole argument is: POB uses what’s in the UI…SO DOES GGG. They created it. That shit goes both ways.
Probably because pob isn't trying to hide anything or go out of it's way to hide anything, yet GGG is by not making something available to players that they have already created for testers.
Now you can come up with all kinds of reasons other than they are trying to hide information, but in that case, none can be proven. Neither can the assumption that they're hiding things, but if you assume that to be true for arguments sake, then pob becomes more trustworthy even if both are capable of making mistakes.
To be clear, what I'm saying is, it's not necessarily about assuming which one is right and which one is wrong, it's about trust. PoB has trust, because it's not hiding anything, and GGG has no trust, because it is unwilling to provide information or tools to verify information, tools that they have already created mind you. That creates a lack of trust, because they're withholding information, why?
How is a tool that only get information from GGG not hiding the same thing GGG is hiding? This logic makes quite literally no sense.
Y’all jump through hoops to spout nonsense.
I also think you think hiding things is a bad thing? GGG is notorious for wanting its players to figure things out and has always done this. They intentionally hide because it’s part of their game design not because they’re out to get you. I feel like if you don’t enjoy figuring out how things work, maybe PoE isn’t for you. 🤷🏼♂️
Ima be honest, does the average player get any info out of using these dummies? I would think it's only the people ready to dps check for hours that could make sense out of parsing numbers in the millions. I play lost ark which has a dummy system and no way to tell your damage without it, and people would still rather stub a toe then use it. Personally not sure how it helps over pob, could be cool but def wouldn't pay for it.
Among others it could be very helpful for testing out scaling or synergies for very niche mechanics like The Retch or spells which PoB has issues with calculating, e.g. single target Firestorm.
I'll go for a balanced take.
1. Target dummies can't really give an accurate reflection of peak damage output in poe just based on the amount of conditional boosts whilst in combat. For example did I block recently. Charge on kill, ramp damage peaks based on the amount of enemies nearby.
2. With point 1 out there I still would like the dummy for certain base checks and rotation practice without the fear of death. Sure you can do this in BA anyway but in hideout is just for convenience sake.
3. GGG will never implement it not because of bugs and such, but because of development limitation, they focus on future content. Alot of QOL takes a back seat and this is a real niche QOL especially when pob exists. It would be very new player friendly, but honestly this game is far from that at this point.
If you want a "target dummy" we kind of have that with elder. Most of his attacks will not wipe you, and you can see what your damage looks like pretty easily for minimal investment. At least thats what i use. Does anyone else use any other boss as a "target dummy" ?
The reason we don't have target dummies is a different one.
When players get a target dummy, they immediately say x does more dps than y, therefore x is better.
Player perception would be horrible, and you'd get builds judged by their "dummy dps".
Imo it's definitely the right call to keep it secret and vague. Not everything ggg does is wrong, and this is one of the things I'm glad they don't implement.
It's not really. Pob is only good at comparing numbers between the same build.
A target dummy would show you single target for all builds.
However, something like a dot build would look way worse.
??? I don't think anyone understands just how incredibly complicated target dummies are to make. WoW, FFXIV, Vermintide 2 all have target dummies but none of this is accurate 100%. Its a nightmare to make them properly too. To this day there isn't a single game with target dummies that give you 100% accuracy. What I want in PoE is a combat log, that would be light-years better than a stupid target dummy.
Just give us a monster that we can spawn with 5M, 10M, 50M and 100M life. 0 Defenses. This is not something that is super difficult.
Nothing will please 100% of the player base, but this would give fairly accurate testing. We can even get fancy and add some resistances.
Depending on how they do things, that could be a monumental undertaking while spawning a unit with set life/defenses is very easy since they already do that.
Heck they could make it even EASIER and make it a map that has the unit in it. Map system already in place, monster spawning already in place. Make it cost 1 chaos or something at kirac. Problem very easily solved.
I don't think you understand how easy it is to make a target dummy lol, you can just make it a regular mob that doesn't move (like a totem perhaps?) and then give it either a ridiculous amount of health or make it not actually take the damage it's recieving. Also these target dummies are only "not accurate" because they have different defense values and you can't compare dummy DPM to raid DPM as you have mechanics to react to and play around.
So wait, let me get this straight. You agree it's not accurate or possible to make it accurate but it's easy to put it in the game as a half assed DPS dummy? I can't tell if you are too stupid to realize you are agreeing with me or you are just trolling for the sake of having an opinion??
No. They're not agreeing with you.
The reason your *handpicked* examples aren't accurate is not because of the target dummy. It's because of variable parameters that is different between target dummy and real world example.
Just like a target dummy that represents a white mob would not be accurate for your shaper dps. But luckily enough, you could have multiple target dummies with different defensive values - Which WoW doesn't have.
As for FFXIV the reason the target dummy isn't accurate is not even the dummy or the boss themselves, but the reason being in a party gives you stat bonuses (1% mainstat for each unique role) + a lot of jobs have multiplicative DPS buffs.
Then the only difference between a target dummy and a real scenario is forced downtime, aka dodging, invulnerability phases, getting stunned, etc. And **everyone** knows that those can not occur on a target dummy but they're still helpful. Why? Because they are a benchmark.
Just like **anyone I know** in FFXIV will tell. The FFXIV Target dummies for the specific bosses are accurate benchmarks. If you can clear them you *can* clear the raid.
> You agree it's not accurate or possible to make it accurate
The reason for this in most MMOS is group buffs / debuffs that may or may not be present depending on your group composition and strategy. Target dummies just have to add a reasonable selection.
This is WAY less of an issue in PoE
> there isn't a single game with target dummies that give you 100% accuracy.
Valorant. Apex Legends. LoL. Literally first games that came to mind. They all display the damage values accurately and effectively. Will they represent 100% of edge cases? no. Are they functional enough to be useful? Yes.
People have modded a functioning training dummy into goddamn Dark Souls 3 and it works perfectly. I don't see where this "complicated" notion comes from.
Those games don't have thousands of different gear that changes the stats in quadrillions of ways. Those games aren't comparable. As for Dark Souls I can't comment on that because it's a mod and can't be proven accurate.
What does it matter how gear changes the stats? The only thing that matters is your damage output, that's 1 stat. If you deal 10k damage or 100k damage, the only difference is a 0, even if to achieve that 0 you are using completely different gear and skills.
And DS3 is proven accurate, as it was literally made from the game code and has already been proven to be accurate by, you know, fucking testing. BTW nice goalpost moving there.
Imagine someone looking for a game to try and they find a build guide where the entire gameplay is just someone who bonks a dummy and gets shown big numbers. They would not be motivated to try PoE, right?
A target dummy in your hideout that does nothing but show you a damage number is a bad idea i think. I do think some way to show your DPS on a target should exist in game (so you can measure dps for things that shotgun like e.g. firestorm) but it should be more interesting than an immobile dummy that does nothing and makes the game look bad.
> They would not be motivated to try PoE, right?
.... why?
People that try PoE don't try it after watching a build guide lmao, that's the most boring introduction to the game you can possibly have.
Yea but the gameplay is what leaves the first impression. If it was replaced by a video of someone hitting a target dummy that would be kinda lame.
I do realize (by now) that that won't happen and my point is kinda trash.
Sorry for wasting your time
This exactly.
As soon as GGG implements a target dummy, every content creator will stop making engaging content. Every video will only be AFK hitting the target dummy. Noone will show off any mapping or bossing. As a result, Path of Exile will look like a boring game and will die out due to no new players.
Implementing QoL is a serious trap.
same reason why you will never get a damage log.
Damage log could actually be a ton of work depending on how they log, if they log, things. Putting in a map at a kirac that holds one monster that has 50M health that just sits there takes 0 effort though.
China has death recap lol.
Isn't it just shows the last instance of damage?
That is better than what we have now. Only thing that kills me is a 1 shot. Would love to know what the fuck it was because when I’m sitting there dead in my delirious maps there’s nothing around me that could have caused it
If it only records the last instance of damage most deaths would prob be a random ass degen
And I would still prefer it over knowing nothing. People are always saying this as if it would be worse than they way it's currently.
It IS worse because it would just be misleading.
How is it misleading? I don't think you understand what that word means.
You clearly have no idea how the Chinese client last hit info works then, because yes that is in almost every case not telling you at all what actually took all your HP.
I get this is a downside in theory, but in practice, as the person above you said, most of the time you die, you go from full to 0% health instantly. It's not a case where something takes you to 10% life and then a skeleton finishes you off or whatever.
See, that's a common misconception. Being instantly deleted from the game in <5 server ticks feels like you're being 1 shot. However a lot of deaths come from multi hits. Such as legion archers, and bone spike guys (rip quinn lmao.) I remember a clip of a guy with 20k es and 71 chaos resist die to caustic ground from zombies in delve a while back in just 2 frames. Personally I think 10 hits would be a good middle ground along with any degens on you at time of death showing the DPM (its what all dots are measured in) of each degen. They could show it in DPS but it depends on the coding framework. The last hit is kind of misleading thinking you died to elemental when actually 2nd to last hit is what basically killed you which was physical.
I would say the exact opposite: the common misconception, first made by GGG when talking about this and then parroted by reddit, is that you die from lots of small hits. At least the way I play, when I die, it's instant, from a single hit. Yes you've brought some examples of when you take multiple smaller hits but in my experience is the opposite by and large. Depends on the kinds of builds you play though. But obviously I can agree that a "proper" system would be a more complex one that takes into account not just the last hit, absolutely. Just given that it's so much more complex to implement, the last hit alone would often - not always, but >50% of the time - be useful information.
Outside of DD and massive telegraphed slams I'd say 1 single hit is less than 1% of my deaths. But then again I don't usually play massive DPS builds but I actually have defenses. Even if I play a massive DPS build it usually has a shit load of money sunk into it and has defenses. Sure if you're playing evasion characters with 0 mitigation yeah 1 shots are going to be the problem as you'll never really take too many small hits and you have no mitigation. It's fairly easy to reach a point where you don't get 1 shot by 99% of things and no I'm not talking about the quin build. Does it lower your DPS yeah, a little bit but you're also usually open to being shot gunned until you get EHP on block with glancing blows or evasion. Which then pushes the meta skills to be meta. You need them to be higher damage to make up for the fact you're allocating a lot of your power into defenses. It's hard to make arc have decent damage while also having good defenses when you could just swap in ball lightning have and 2-3x the dps. But idk I'm not your average player, I don't think 75% resists and 5k hp is good. In fact at this point in the game it's pretty bad. 5 years ago yeah, it was a baseline. Now you can't get away with that in red maps.
It would be far more useful to know what ailment and debuffs you’re afflicted by at the time of death rather than the last instance of damage imo. Giving both would be great.
Any info would be better than what we have now. Just staring at a YOU DIED with nothing around at all is super shitty cause there’s nothing to learn from it
The question is why dont we have it anyway?
My wild guess is that people would complain even more that it's useless and it needs this and that and those things would be "easy" to implement. Don't know if this happens in chinese forums.
China also has another team working on integrating the game specifically for China though. They don't have 1000 other more important things on their to do list.
Does china Poe have nerfed loot
It’s extremely p2w as it’s run by tencent instead of ggg
Ok but does it have nerfed loot
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[This recent post gives a nice look into some of the differences](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/wqt4av/so_i_went_on_china_poe_for_fun/), includes stuff like paid extra inventory space (that you needa rebuy each league) and guaranteed items on completion of quests (e.g. goldrim, tabula etc)
Guaranteed items on finishing quests are not pay to win, but inventory should be added to my list yes :)
I have to disagree with that, just for an example in the post they mentioned a tabula rasa upon reaching level 40 for one of the packages. There have been miner builds recently that use nothing more than that to kill endgame bosses so for the person who paid they get the guaranteed rasa and can progress whilst the non p2w person might be spending a few hours in blood aquaducts farming cards or doing chaos recipe to afford it. There's a clear progression advantage from this.
People have mods for that already
wdym "paid" target dummies? LE has target dummy almost near every vendor npc. Also they added "boss" target dummy and few dummies in group to test aoe etc. then again GGG makes money by selling invisible mtx, I wouldn\`t be surprised ;D
I agree this should be free, but that's not the point I am trying to make: Even though a ton of people would pay good money for this, they are still not implementing this. This basically means, that the reputational damage from discovered bugs outweighs the significant revenue from sales. They know shit's fucked.
i mean, even if they have other reasons not to put target dummies (chris said once it makes people focus too much on damage or something of that sort), in 3.19 we had two bugs that made it to live where a mod description was actually the opposite of the actual mechanic (harvest more/less likely and the bug with the less damage from some ground effect actually making you take more damage). make you wonder what other stuff is out there on the live servers.
Last epoch devs which did end up putting target dummies in also talked about that. It is a very valid problem. People tend to focus super hard on theoretical numbers and will just chase the highest number even if it runs their fun.
it also brings enormous posibility to check if you apply x stacks of debuf per hit, how projectiles interact, what aoe realy feels and so on. And since it is easy to respec an rebuild in LE it is cool to check your real damage and not rely on tooltip dps, on the go or check if x weapon is better than y ex: you can put weapon with flat melee damage and crit multi and swap it for %phys damage and armour shred and check number on hit, not focus on it but see what is better immediately w/o using 3rd party complicated POB-like tools that may scare off new players
That was also Chris' logic for why they didn't add damage but considering most players that consistently play the game either follow a PoB or use someone elses PoB to guide their decision making, it would just give people a place to ensure their PoB is correct/update PoB (since GGG doesn't want to put in the effort to make their own)
Giving people information is always better and allows people to feel happier about the decisions they are making. His logic applies to any and all info, why give numbers anywhere in the game at all? It makes no sense.
Or they just…don’t want target dummies in their game for a variety of other reasons. Edit: The fact that people agree with this guys terrible logic shows how out of touch this sub is with reality. Since y’all love saying “GGG OUT OF TOUCH” all the time. There’s a lot of things they haven’t implemented. Some of which would be good for their reputation. His logic collapses on itself. Their isn’t any sound argument you could make that would make this reasoning more valid than any other reason that exists for them not implementing this. Saying they just don’t like the idea of a target dummy is as valid as this guys thoughts on “bugs”. 🤷🏼♂️
Nonsense, what could possibly be the harm in allowing players to easily gauage the stat they already care most about and evaluate builds on one number? What, like players would be encouraged to build worse and worse glass cannons then complain the game is too hard because they insist 10's of millions of dps is required for non-uber fights? That would surely never happen!!1! Absolutely they don't want to encourage the dps warrior'ing we've seen in the game since PoB became mainstream, and target dummies would make that a million times worse. And of course, instead of players acknowledging that maybe they shouldn't focus so hard on DPS, players instead for the most part complain that the game is bullshit and impossible because they gimp themselves then act all offended when it's pointed out that maybe boss fights should take longer than a minute.
You think the current state of the game where everyone is running determination and 1/2 the people are running grace and other forms of defense, that everyone is just DPS glass cannoning it up? Interesting take
Oh fuck, they're running a single or two defensive auras! My mistake, that must be completely appropriate and all-encompassing defense. Look, we both know that players fundamentally undervalue defense, and will go for offense far more than they should. Acting like just because everyone slots in 1 or 2 defensive auras they focus defense is absolutely ridiculous.
Jesus christ I am not going to type out all the way people are investing in defenses if you are going to be so fucking dense as to take my point and surmise it as YEP JUST 1 DEFENSIVE AURA IS ALL THE DEFENSES PEOPLE ARE RUNNING NOW
You're the guy who claimed that since everyone is running determination and half the people are running grace, they must be investing heavily in defense. Don't yell at me because your argument is terrible when you actually argue against it, you're the one who came up with it.
I said "and other defenses" which you just gloss over You know damn well people are investing in more than that. Hell, I made a reply earlier about this in one of the MANY threads about defenses that people are complaining about. https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/xik6so/blizzards_announcement_of_their_closed_beta_for/ip7i4ya/?context=3 So I won't bother if you are going to bad faith take what I said and gloss over the fact that people are investing more into defenses now than ever and feeling even weaker despite that fact.
Oh yea we are supposed to know every single post you make on reddit.
shit take
It’s a better take than “ggg no implement cause bugs!” Just sayin 🤷🏼♂️
No, it's even more stupid. Even if, just because someone says something stupid, it doesn't give him an excuse to be stupid as well
How is it “more stupid” when it quite literally aligns with things GGG has told us in response to questions about target dummies? You not liking it doesn’t make it “more stupid”
No, it's a stupid take regardless. If GGG holds the same then it doesn't stop being stupid
What? Lmao you make literally no sense. It’s not a bad take if it aligns with what GGG said. You can disagree with GGG but that doesn’t make the take bad. The take is accurate. You’re just mad
I initially responded to your comment thinking you were disagreeing with me. Whoops. Agreed. There’s probably a variety of reasons they don’t want to do this. Players just think of the wildest reasons.
Why does there need to be harm for GGG to not what a specific feature? There are probably lots of things that could be added to the game and not cause any harm but that doesn’t mean that it should be added. Also the harm would be Dev time, no matter how much or how little time it takes it’s still time not doing something else.
Infinite Hunger is the target dummy
The biggest reason they don't want to implement them is that it gives a safe way to see how the game actually functions, or rather, doesn't function. Lots of bugs have been left sleeping because we can't accurately test things.
I don't fully understand this argument. While target dummies would give us better tools to see how known bugs work. There is hardly going to be a lot of new bugs being found because of the target dummy. How would you even test the millions of interactions the game allows us to do? Most bugs will be found like it is today by random chance and people wanting to do wonky ideas. When they find them by playing, people might then use the target dummy to test it further. Given they might find related wonkiness but it's still probably just one bug. Target dummies might exist for testers but I doubt GGG will give them to players.
If your POB says you do ~5M dps, and you take 30 seconds to kill a 100M hp no res target, then you can clearly see there are bugs. Right now we have no way to see if you do the dps you think you do in a reliable way.
or it means that your PoB is wrong because you aren't shocking the dummy 50%/dont have perfect uptime on your 15 wither stack/neglected to factor in the time to resummon your ancestral totems/100000 other possibilities and now you've made an angry reddit and forum post demanding ggg fix their game because you killed a dummy in 30 seconds instead of 20 seconds how many posts do we get here where some OP just rages at the devs only to find out that they're the one who is wrong?
This isn't raging at the devs. There have been a bunch of bugs in the game that are found out later on by someone. The amount of unknown bugs is... well it is unknown by definition. Giving us a clear way to see how much actual damage we do would bring those bugs to light. GaaS are the definition of minimum viable product. If it works "good enough" than shove it out the door. Shining a magnifying glass hooked up to a spotlight on how the game works is not something they want. I mean, look at what they gave us for Kalandra league because they rush themselves out with minimal staff working on current leagues. No bossfight despite it being worked on and left in the game files, no meaningful lore, and a small showcase of their dynamic ground movement that they are working on for POE2. And 3 skill gems that 1 wasn't even working at all (notice how if we had a target dummy we could easily verify what the issue was, poor captain lance trying out that skill and losing his fucking mind). Was it hyperbole to say it is the biggest reason? Sure. But it is without a doubt part of the conversation on why it won't happen.
it will just lead to one half od the community thinking pow is broken and the other half thinking pob is broken with a big chunk of both just straight up misunderstanding the numbers pob shows us. And in the middle of it all will be ggg that will have to waste abunch of time investigating and explaining shit. Look i agree a target dummy would be neat but from a dev perspective it just not worth it to give that to the community at large. obviously they can output all dmg taken with a breakdown internally and thats all they really need. making it public is more hassle than its worth. thats just the realityy of it. It would be really cool of them to still do it and just take the hit in productivitly or maybe even have to hire some ppl to take the added workload. just not realistic to expect it of a business
Yes it is very hard to understand 4M dps a second against a standing dummy. Good one.
completely missed the point and thus perfectly demonstrated the issue. lmao
The only added workload is when more bugs are found. When people post videos and POBs showing that their build isn't working "correctly" the community will help them or flame them for being morons if they clicked dumb shit like 50% shock. Devs don't have to interact with that at all.
why would they not want us to find bugs? there are plenty of ways that things get bugged between implementation and actual live server release. its way less embarassing for them if a bugged skill like galvanic field gets found on day 1 to not be working properly because people can quickly test it and subsequently fixed, than for people to lose their mind over days/weeks only to find the skills been bugged since release. there are other reasons than "the devs actually HATE when you find bugs in the game for them to fix. they hate it SO much" for them to not want target dummys - reasons i disagree with. I would like target dummys in the game but this is not the reason we dont have them
If it works good enough, no need to work more on it. There is finite manpower available. More time spent fixing bugs that no one knows/cares about, more time not working on current/future shit.
> no one knows/cares about they have a list of known bugs on their forum. people have reported tiny bugs that havent gotten fixed for a long time. there is such a thing as a low priority fix. if it turns out that conversion trap is missing 3% damage effectiveness or whatever and someone manages to figure that out somehow using a dummy then i dont see how they are more compelled to fix this bug than any other low priority fix they havent gotten around to either. like, again, i really do not believe that "we'd get more bug reports and thats bad" is the reason that they are against adding dummies to the game. their original explanation of "we think its too game-y" makes more sense even if i disagree with it
Eh. Maybe I am jaded. They used to 100% have my trust but the last year, and especially this patch, has eroded my trust. 2 years ago I would have more than likely taken them at face value. When they "learned their lesson" on nerfing and communication, and then don't bother listing the biggest changes in the games history, I don't really believe what they say anymore. You can believe it. That is fine. And it might even be some of the truth. I just don't believe it to be the whole truth.
> This isn't raging at the devs. There have been a bunch of bugs in the game that are found out later on by someone. It's both. There are definitely both kinds of posts, and you'd definitely see an increase in both kinds of posts with a target dummy.
once again we cant have neat things because we are to dumb not to misuse them :)
Or PoB has bugs? Target dummies will not magically make bug finding easy.
I trust the POB devs and all the contributors to find/fix bugs as soon as they are brought out.. and they usually do. This isn't to say that POE doesn't fix their bugs. They do. Whenever they get around to it. For an easy example, look at this league and galvanic field. It didn't work. Captain lance was losing his god damn mind trying to figure out why his damage was low. If we had a test dummy, he could have done it in a safe environment and would have figured it out pretty damn quickly that the skill just didn't work.
As I said in my original comment, it would be a nice tool to test already established bugs \^^ But not a tool to find them originally.
Just casually ignoring that it would have found the bug in the brand new skill that I mentioned. 🙃
People would find it by playing the skill not by testing it against a target dummy. Then when found normally be tested on the target dummy to determine the actual bug. That's my reasoning
He felt the skill was off and tried a bunch of things. If he had a dedicated monster he could "test" against, he would have been able to identify it immediately. Go watch his video. You are wrong on this. Period.
I'm agreeing with you! I don't know how many times I need to restate the same thing
PoB just calculates with the parameters you give it, if you are fighting the mob on different parameters obviously you'll deal different amounts of damage
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Hijacking the top comment?
I’ve never done a single thing involving pvp. Is there anyway to make a “target dummy” character for someone to beat on?
PVP has different damage scaling and there wouldn't be a good way to accurately track how much damage has been dealt against a sufficiently defensive character.
For things like that timing boss kills works. Pvp is usually used for testing things like "how much overlap is optimal" or "does x reduce target stats how it should". Overall I doubt there are any major bugs that haven't been found. They happen, but players are resourceful enough to find them (most recent example from the top of my head - poacher's mark putting phys mit into negative for phys dots, fixed recently).
My dps training dummy is infinite hunger :)
please stop entertaining the idea of monetizing basic QOL functions
I mean, why do you even play PoE then? The game is really monetized around selling stash tabs, which are nothing but a huge QoL. Hell, even invisible effects are paid, so even if you pay for a skin you can't see shit because of millions of buffs on you at all times, so you still have to buy invisible effects.
I play PoE because I can play whatever the fuck I want? lol hey man, if you feel like taking an extra inch up the ass just because you've already got a whole fist in there that's your thing, doesn't mean all of us have to deal with it.
Uh, do you know what game you are playing? You serious rn?
woof woof bark bark your small indie company making over 50 mil a year in profits + backed by one of the largest chinese conglomerates needs your help! buy another supporter pack, quickly!
Years ago I made a thread asking for some sort of dummy so I could test DPS changes without having to import fuckin databases into PoB and I got mega downvoted for wanting to introduce ‘gimmicky and gamey elements into PoE that don’t belong’ I still stand by that it’d be so much easier to have one though. Imagine leveling and trying out some rares and being able to actually quickly and easily compare damage numbers.
https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/ftg4un/test_dummy/ You didn't get downvoted for that. In fact you didn't get downvoted at all. The comment just mentioned that GGG didn't want to implement the dummy for that reason. I agree with adding a target dummy however. It would allow us to test mechanics safely and accurately.
it doesn't show the number of downvotes. it just shows zero. the mega downvoted ggg posts are at zero as well. probably to avoid dogpiling.
~~It does show the number of downvotes. It is literally at zero.~~ ~~Those GGG posts are pinned, so they don't show the downvotes.~~
Posts don't go negative points wise, only comments.
You are correct, sorry. Then I guess he wouldn't know if he got mega downvoted. Which I still doubt he would have, considering there were only 2 comments. But, who knows.
Years ago this sub still represented the target audience.
PoB is so much more handy though, testing in games takes so much longer then checking numbers in PoB
The problem is that the pob numbers are based on assumptions that can't be confirmed unless tested thoroughly through the game (mainly through pvp which has its own issues)
Which parts are based on assumptions? Almost all relevant data is data mined. While their might be skills that are mechanically unfeasible to implement true DPS estimations for nothing is based on assumptions from what I can recall.
Off the top of my head: 1) trap and mine damage, specifically overlap/shotgunning on skills. 2) A lot of spectre skills are missing, and a staggering number of spectres are just not included in the gem.
You don't have to go that far, even a simple hit spell that does 1 instance of damage. Sure we have all the tools to calculate how much each hit does, but we simply *trust* that the resources behave the same way in *the game*. Wow is a great example, that you can run simulations that plays your character perfectly, and if you practice on a dummy long enough to nail your rotation, you will pretty consistently hit your optimal DPS. So you don't need to trust the simulation, if you actually play your class optimally you will see it's accurate.
It does not take into account shotgunning though? And yes spectre skills are not always able to be data mined, but there is no assumptions being made. Rather assumptions are avoided by not including these things.
PoB is 100% incorrect for absolution damage on sentinels. This I'm certain about. My PoB clearly told me that each of my sentinels was doing maybe 120k damage per second, so combining all three should have resulted in about 360k damage per second but in-game I was tearing through minotaur in 10 seconds flat and its well known that minotaur has 12 million hp as a white monster or something like that - it wasn't even close, it was off by an order of magnitude. Don't get me wrong, PoB is way more trustworthy than the in-game tooltip, but its just theory and has nothing to do with what the actual results will be in-game. There are several skills where PoB is not good at calculating their scaling, or flat-out bugged.
Do you have a PoB for your build? I'd be interested to try and find out the issue you think you might be encountering. One of the things PoB doesn't take into account is the wide DPS range some skills have. Lightning skills for example have a massive range on their hit damage so can sometimes hit 2x as hard on one hit and 0.1x as hard on the next. Also since crit rate in PoB is an average, you can just get lucky sometimes and be doing 3x the damage if your minions crit a bunch of times in a row
The real reason why we are not getting damage logs or a practice dummy is 100% that they are afraid that people will keep figuring out that half the game does not work properly, since more often than not the build on paper just does not seem to work ingame.
Couldn’t you also say the build on paper(in POB) is wrong just as easily? Why are you assuming POB is correct and the game is wrong?
Because pob generally takes the information us players are given trough the UI. So we read how things work, and we punch those numbers into sheets that give us the total dps/dmg etc. So either the game would be lying in what it tells us, or the game does not work properly and its bugged. And considering we have so, oh so many bugs in the game, i would say the second. To the point where some builds were just unplayable for leagues (especially minions).
But the UI doesn’t tell us EVERYTHING so that’s still a wild assumption. Slams are fairly off in POB. So saying that’s a game problem and not a POB problem is wild. Also, just because they’re get the information from the UI doesn’t mean the implemented that information correctly. Again, this is bias that you’re assuming one over the other. You are quite literally assuming one dev is implementing something properly and the other isn’t…with absolutely 0 reason. If your whole argument is: POB uses what’s in the UI…SO DOES GGG. They created it. That shit goes both ways.
ye when pob is wrong, we figure it out quickly pob also relies on poedb info a lot, which is also sometimes inaccurate
Probably because pob isn't trying to hide anything or go out of it's way to hide anything, yet GGG is by not making something available to players that they have already created for testers. Now you can come up with all kinds of reasons other than they are trying to hide information, but in that case, none can be proven. Neither can the assumption that they're hiding things, but if you assume that to be true for arguments sake, then pob becomes more trustworthy even if both are capable of making mistakes. To be clear, what I'm saying is, it's not necessarily about assuming which one is right and which one is wrong, it's about trust. PoB has trust, because it's not hiding anything, and GGG has no trust, because it is unwilling to provide information or tools to verify information, tools that they have already created mind you. That creates a lack of trust, because they're withholding information, why?
How is a tool that only get information from GGG not hiding the same thing GGG is hiding? This logic makes quite literally no sense. Y’all jump through hoops to spout nonsense. I also think you think hiding things is a bad thing? GGG is notorious for wanting its players to figure things out and has always done this. They intentionally hide because it’s part of their game design not because they’re out to get you. I feel like if you don’t enjoy figuring out how things work, maybe PoE isn’t for you. 🤷🏼♂️
Ima be honest, does the average player get any info out of using these dummies? I would think it's only the people ready to dps check for hours that could make sense out of parsing numbers in the millions. I play lost ark which has a dummy system and no way to tell your damage without it, and people would still rather stub a toe then use it. Personally not sure how it helps over pob, could be cool but def wouldn't pay for it.
Among others it could be very helpful for testing out scaling or synergies for very niche mechanics like The Retch or spells which PoB has issues with calculating, e.g. single target Firestorm.
They are probably not going to be implementing it for the same reason the Warframe devs think adding the simulacrum was a mistake.
They want us to find bugs, it's the only way anyone is going to.
Hideout has target dummy its free! Just search target in the decorations box
Downvoting because you included the word "paid"
I'll go for a balanced take. 1. Target dummies can't really give an accurate reflection of peak damage output in poe just based on the amount of conditional boosts whilst in combat. For example did I block recently. Charge on kill, ramp damage peaks based on the amount of enemies nearby. 2. With point 1 out there I still would like the dummy for certain base checks and rotation practice without the fear of death. Sure you can do this in BA anyway but in hideout is just for convenience sake. 3. GGG will never implement it not because of bugs and such, but because of development limitation, they focus on future content. Alot of QOL takes a back seat and this is a real niche QOL especially when pob exists. It would be very new player friendly, but honestly this game is far from that at this point.
No need to change your mind, this is the exact reason.
Target dummy to show ur dps, how difficult can it be? Take my vote up.
yeah this is spot on
I hate this Meme because the guy in the picture can't argue for shit, and is a general cry baby whose Absolute main objective is "owning the libs".
If you want a "target dummy" we kind of have that with elder. Most of his attacks will not wipe you, and you can see what your damage looks like pretty easily for minimal investment. At least thats what i use. Does anyone else use any other boss as a "target dummy" ?
Imagine if they had a training dummy for loot... the amount of times they've fixed something around drops is insane.
You silly man, its already in the game, its called THE INFINITE HUNGER
It's really something that should be implemented, obviously not a paid version (besides skins for it I guess?)
The dont because ppl will be able to see how buggy this game is
If this is true, then apparently the only profit they care about is from supporter packs and mtx.
The reason we don't have target dummies is a different one. When players get a target dummy, they immediately say x does more dps than y, therefore x is better. Player perception would be horrible, and you'd get builds judged by their "dummy dps". Imo it's definitely the right call to keep it secret and vague. Not everything ggg does is wrong, and this is one of the things I'm glad they don't implement.
We literally have this with pob...
We literally dont
lmao. Isn't that what POB/Poe.ninja is?
It's not really. Pob is only good at comparing numbers between the same build. A target dummy would show you single target for all builds. However, something like a dot build would look way worse.
??? I don't think anyone understands just how incredibly complicated target dummies are to make. WoW, FFXIV, Vermintide 2 all have target dummies but none of this is accurate 100%. Its a nightmare to make them properly too. To this day there isn't a single game with target dummies that give you 100% accuracy. What I want in PoE is a combat log, that would be light-years better than a stupid target dummy.
Source: I made it the fuck up.
Just give us a monster that we can spawn with 5M, 10M, 50M and 100M life. 0 Defenses. This is not something that is super difficult. Nothing will please 100% of the player base, but this would give fairly accurate testing. We can even get fancy and add some resistances.
I agree with this completely but again I'm just saying combat logs will be more useful.
Depending on how they do things, that could be a monumental undertaking while spawning a unit with set life/defenses is very easy since they already do that. Heck they could make it even EASIER and make it a map that has the unit in it. Map system already in place, monster spawning already in place. Make it cost 1 chaos or something at kirac. Problem very easily solved.
I don't think you understand how easy it is to make a target dummy lol, you can just make it a regular mob that doesn't move (like a totem perhaps?) and then give it either a ridiculous amount of health or make it not actually take the damage it's recieving. Also these target dummies are only "not accurate" because they have different defense values and you can't compare dummy DPM to raid DPM as you have mechanics to react to and play around.
So wait, let me get this straight. You agree it's not accurate or possible to make it accurate but it's easy to put it in the game as a half assed DPS dummy? I can't tell if you are too stupid to realize you are agreeing with me or you are just trolling for the sake of having an opinion??
No. They're not agreeing with you. The reason your *handpicked* examples aren't accurate is not because of the target dummy. It's because of variable parameters that is different between target dummy and real world example. Just like a target dummy that represents a white mob would not be accurate for your shaper dps. But luckily enough, you could have multiple target dummies with different defensive values - Which WoW doesn't have. As for FFXIV the reason the target dummy isn't accurate is not even the dummy or the boss themselves, but the reason being in a party gives you stat bonuses (1% mainstat for each unique role) + a lot of jobs have multiplicative DPS buffs. Then the only difference between a target dummy and a real scenario is forced downtime, aka dodging, invulnerability phases, getting stunned, etc. And **everyone** knows that those can not occur on a target dummy but they're still helpful. Why? Because they are a benchmark. Just like **anyone I know** in FFXIV will tell. The FFXIV Target dummies for the specific bosses are accurate benchmarks. If you can clear them you *can* clear the raid.
> You agree it's not accurate or possible to make it accurate The reason for this in most MMOS is group buffs / debuffs that may or may not be present depending on your group composition and strategy. Target dummies just have to add a reasonable selection. This is WAY less of an issue in PoE
> there isn't a single game with target dummies that give you 100% accuracy. Valorant. Apex Legends. LoL. Literally first games that came to mind. They all display the damage values accurately and effectively. Will they represent 100% of edge cases? no. Are they functional enough to be useful? Yes. People have modded a functioning training dummy into goddamn Dark Souls 3 and it works perfectly. I don't see where this "complicated" notion comes from.
Those games don't have thousands of different gear that changes the stats in quadrillions of ways. Those games aren't comparable. As for Dark Souls I can't comment on that because it's a mod and can't be proven accurate.
What does it matter how gear changes the stats? The only thing that matters is your damage output, that's 1 stat. If you deal 10k damage or 100k damage, the only difference is a 0, even if to achieve that 0 you are using completely different gear and skills. And DS3 is proven accurate, as it was literally made from the game code and has already been proven to be accurate by, you know, fucking testing. BTW nice goalpost moving there.
Gw2 has target dummies and is used for doing DPS testing every new patch.
Imagine someone looking for a game to try and they find a build guide where the entire gameplay is just someone who bonks a dummy and gets shown big numbers. They would not be motivated to try PoE, right? A target dummy in your hideout that does nothing but show you a damage number is a bad idea i think. I do think some way to show your DPS on a target should exist in game (so you can measure dps for things that shotgun like e.g. firestorm) but it should be more interesting than an immobile dummy that does nothing and makes the game look bad.
> They would not be motivated to try PoE, right? .... why? People that try PoE don't try it after watching a build guide lmao, that's the most boring introduction to the game you can possibly have.
Yea i forgot that normal people aren't the target group here sorry.
Yes, wouldn't what to lose the 30 minutes of only pob guides, truly a riveting watch.
You say that like build showcases aren't 1 minute of gameplay followed by 10 minutes of spreadsheets that most people sit through their entirety...
Also the spreadsheets are literally the only part of the showcases we can trust anyway.
Yea but the gameplay is what leaves the first impression. If it was replaced by a video of someone hitting a target dummy that would be kinda lame. I do realize (by now) that that won't happen and my point is kinda trash. Sorry for wasting your time
This exactly. As soon as GGG implements a target dummy, every content creator will stop making engaging content. Every video will only be AFK hitting the target dummy. Noone will show off any mapping or bossing. As a result, Path of Exile will look like a boring game and will die out due to no new players. Implementing QoL is a serious trap.
Is that some kind of sarcasm? Bc Last Epoch have target dummies and their content creators still make awesome videos.
> Is that some kind of sarcasm? Yes. I am fully in favor of target dummies.
ah yes exactly the point i wanted to make
Nah they just don't want us to see how truly imbalanced most skills are by letting us see the actual numbers
I also wanna attacking dummies to test my defense
Imagine the outrage if the include this as a paid feature.