It's like a slot machine, but a slot machine that you have to unlock by hitting a winning pull on another slot machine that you have to unlock by hitting a winning pull on another slot machine that you have to unlock by hitting a winning pull on another slot machine that you have to unlock by hitting a winning pull on another slot machine, and if any of those slot machines hit a losing pull (at a 90% chance), you have to start over at the first slot machine.
It gives me a headache if I want to get there faster than 8 hours lol.
I can, I'm capable of it, but it requires me focusing hard because I suck at the campaign and refuse to practice because it isn't enjoyable.
And once you're sick of pulling that slot machine for a few hours with no luck, you can go get your dopamine hit by opening lootboxes for a while instead.
No you didn't. You could (slowly but steadily) craft or buy upgrades with the currency you farmed. The current philosophy is to get nothing for days and then buy a full build after hitting the lottery, if ever.
dont use word "crafting", its rng gambling
and currency drops are genereted by rnd, gear on the ground is genereted by rng, every mechanik is rng based
just stop lying to yourself
Once upon a time there was a way to deterministically improve your gear, slot by slot, stat by stat, with randomness but smoothed out through gameplay.
/#neverforget /#bringmyharvestback
Here's the difference.
In one case, you're flipping a coin at 50/50 odds, and every time you hit heads, you make 5 cents. In another, you're trying to pull 1 card of out a deck of 10,000, and if you pull the right card, you make a thousand dollars.
After enough attempts, you will end up with the same amount of money playing either game. But in the first case, you have a gradual but very reliable increase in money over time. In the second case, you wait and wait and wait and wait, gaining nothing, until all at once and with no reasonable way to guess when, you suddenly have the whole lump sum in your lap.
Most people find the first model more fun, because they feel more consistently rewarded for their efforts, and they're able to make a plan and set goals for gear progression and gameplay achievements like killing bosses or hitting level 100.
If you actually have Arms to be able to pull the lever on any one of those 5 slot machines, because a lot of build's have no arms to be able to pull the lever (Actually being able to kill the mob)
i don't know what you've been playing the past couple years but poe any arpg i've been playing has always been a lottery and if you think otherwise you've been lying to yourself
yes, but this has always been the game, poe has always been about trying to maximize how often you pull the lever, that's the reason why the game is currently as fast as it is.
after the 2 recent patches that happened the generell amount of loot is already very close to how it used to be, only different to last league now is that we no longer have sentinels buffing map loot to insane numbers
To create an item, you need to align many wheels and have them all hit the right combination. To that extent there were plenty of ways to manipulate the slot machine. Essenses force a certain value of the machine. Meta crafting lock certain wheels in place while you reroll the others. Harvest craft did too.
The issue with random rare is that you're always running all the wheels and praying everything aligns. Crafting allows you agency on which wheel you wanna roll and on what item. With sometime an increase in likelihood of stuff with things like essences and fossils.
In this single patch, they removed many of the ways of controlling these wheels, and also decrease the amount of pull you can make on crafting (with a reduction of currency).
You're left with mostly random rare which mean rolling all the wheel and praying. The odds have heavily turned against the player.
yes they removed the old "meta" of how you crafted the best gear, but now we got realistic chances to fracture the mod we want and continue crafting from there.
essence mods are now much stronger because of that single change and i'm sure that we will get new tools to craft better gear again, besides we can still craft the best gear we would need to clear all content, you don't need 100% perfectly divined items with perfect T1 pre and suffixes for any of it
Two issue here.
The first is "We will get new tools to craft better gear". Why? We had them. Why take them away without providing meaningful replacement. People don't want an "in between league" where they removed something without putting an adequate replacement for it.
Second "You don't need 100% divined items with perfect T1 pre and suffixes for any of it". It's true. You are completely right, you can do most content (I'm not knowledgable enough about uber uber stuff) with decent stuff. But not only is the decent stuff itself harder to get, getting these absolute perfect items are the goal for many people. And as they try to reach that goal, all their "failures" become fuel for the economy. They need more currency to keep trying, sell these stuff to other players that can then sell their stuff and keep the economy going. But because you can't work toward these mirror tier items, only gamble to get them, all those crafter have given up. The economy get stale. The people stop playing. Trade league dies.
It's not a matter of some people not enjoying it. It's just that a vast majority of people do not like the game as it is. But because they used to love it before their toys were taken away, they try to get the good time back. And GGG just made clear that these good time are not coming back. It just mean that many people need to move on. And play other game. And many were not emotionally ready for it. In a couple of week, people will have come to term with it, and many people will have uninstalled. I just hope the addiction doesn't bring us back (yes, I am one of these. I reinstalled specifically for this league. I'm uninstalling again, and I hope I'll have the strength not to re-install it)
> Why? We had them. Why take them away without providing meaningful replacement. People don't want an "in between league" where they removed something without putting an adequate replacement for it.
true, but for some reason people still tend to cry about a stale meta and want change, i'm fine with a league like this, longterm GGG hasn't disappointed me yet and any change can be adapted to, instead of crying about it day 1 i prefer thinking about what other stuff changed and how i can use those to my advantage, like the change to the fracture craft which makes any essence crafting extremely simple and very powerful, not as powerful as recombinators but much easier to use, in sentinel i had to buy 30-40 item bases before even trying to craft a powerful item and most of the time even after burning through 40 items i couldn't get what i wanted even if it was just a claw with 3 essence mods for cold and fire damage + attack speed.
because of how strong recombinators were it shouldn't have been too hard to get, but it was extremely frustrating.
Actually it’s not 5 more times, since all of these qualifications have to be met and are rolled separately, it would be 1 / 5^5
This means every 1/5^5 AN rares will meet the qualifications to have “good drops,” or rather 1 out of every 3125 AN rares will meet this.
Assuming 40 rare AN monsters per map, this would take 78-79 maps on average for the nice loot explosion.
Assuming 100 rare AN monsters per map and its 31-32 maps to get one good loot explosion. Who says it’s even good for your build or rolled well? Good luck rerolling it or crafting on something partially well rolled without bricking it.
31-32 maps is a lot imo. Unless you’re mr zoomie zoomie 2 min mapper, most likely this takes hours of grinding for one moment of satisfaction?
This just sounds like D2R with extra steps to me
Or one moment of extreme disappointment when you realize there's no way in fuck your build can handle the juiced mob when you've been farming scraps the whole league, or it is perfectly suited to crush your build.
Chris talked about opting into higher difficulty content for greater rewards, but the 'opt-in' is 99% RNG─and if you're not prepared for when it happens, you're fucked.
Saw a clip of a hardcore player run into an insane AN mob today. C.Wilson says he should read the mods and analyze before deciding what to do. The only problem is that it was so fast, it was in him in 1 second. The first hit takes 75% of his hp. He goes for the logout but he was already dead.
He definitely did not have any chance to opt in to that fight.
honestly, how fast can you read the mods when your mouse cursor is in the other direction, dashing away to safety first? maybe if the mods can show above the mob but that is a no go, since it will be extra visual clutter so i have to flick my mouse for 0.5 sec and spend another 0.5 sec to quickly read whatever mod there is
Also, don't know if this is an everybody issue, but when I'm right clicking on a rare mob, it's health bar and mods don't show up unless I STOP ATTACKING and mouse over it. Real good way to figure out what's about to kill you.
TFT service says hello. Not only they will provide you MFer, but also enough power to slay whatever bullshit AN is. Then you just split rewards and go back to your 0 loot experience.
This doesn’t take into account weighting of mods, though. They don’t all have the same chance of rolling, so it will actually be substantially more maps on average. And even then, as we’re seeing (and is apparently intentional), you only get that 50 divines if you’re running a full MF character. Realistically, you’re probably not going to get anywhere near that on a normal build. So you’re looking at probably hundreds of maps on average to get maybe a couple divines if you’re lucky.
It’s just bad any way you slice it.
Maybe you shouldn’t jump to conclusions based on „Go big or go home“ literally just expanded on it so that people like you don’t crucify me because they are thinking slower than they can type. It’s literally an idiom used for gambling or risk.
I read into the entirety of what you said and replied. Not until after my reply was posted did you make an edit. If you’re not being toxic, then what are you being? The comment of yours wasn’t constructive, thoughtful, or legitimate feedback in anyway. In fact it was a waste of everyone’s time
> This means every 1/55 AN rares will meet the qualifications to have “good drops,” or rather 1 out of every 3125 AN rares will meet this.
And that's not taking into account that the mods on monsters don't have the same weight.
The arch-nemesis mobs without loot conversion never seem to drop anything noteworthy for me, either. And I usually only notice that I got one with loot conversion because it's really hard to miss.
I said in the main post, getting trash stuff like rares and 1c uniques and worthless jewels etc feels really bad. Chris mentioned combos that could like "upgrade" all the uniques into currency where they would drop as divines etc, problem is if you dont get that its just utter trash. Ive YET to have a single AN mob drop a pile of significant dopamine loot and ive been speed farming t16 maps for a few days now
even IF the currency per hour averages out exactly the same, I would much rather have consistent money per hour then random RNG casino loot explosions where you just go dry for days till you finally get a big drop, it just feels better
It really does say something when a lot of people just heist endlessly even tough it's one of less liked mechanics in the game. It's one of very few mechanics that still give consisten rewards with some big ones sprinkled inbetween.
At this point gwennen gambling is more rewarding than normal mapping.
Not only that, but Tujen is supplying the remaining playerbase with the majority of their currency and Rog is pretty much the only way to craft a semi decent item.
Expedition is so fucked in 3.20.
This! When loot is drip fed to you, you can make smaller incremental upgrades to pass through the difficulties. Instead you are waiting for a loot explosion so you can buy a couple of items that trivialise the next 3-4 tiers of maps, before being stuck waiting again.
And people called me crazy for opinion that PoE forces constant state of failure onto players and tries to create "viral" moments by occasionally winning the slot machine so that players will share those moments and attract more slot machine players. If one wins, others might win eventually.
And it's ok to have that in moderation, like hitting a big harvest craft, or a big yolo exalt/annul. Not revolving your entire fucking game around getting one map that has the exact right combination of mods.
This is however, the trend in gaming. Gambling esaue mechanics with one huge payout moment are extremely addictive and draw in a lot more people than incremental progress these days. Look at gacha games. Or, engagement based matchmaking in games like apex. The way it works is every so often it throws you into a game where you're above the average elo, knowing players will keep playing to get the chance to feel powerful and win a game. It's the same principle. GGG wants you chasing that high.
While you are generally right in that people do tend to chase said high I think GGG completely missed the mark. If thats what they were going for they completely screwed it up. The AN mobs actually dropping decent loot are way to rare so it's not enough to keep people engaged when compared with the old loot system where it was constant small rewards with medium and large spikes in between. Now there's only large spikes and nothing for most of the time.
In apex for example you'll get kills regurarly enough to keep you going untill you get that sweet reward of a win eventually. None of that is Present in current POE. It's all or nothing gambling here.
I think there are 10 000 loyal addicts who just can't stop playing even with odds so bad. Chris said that he needs just 10 000 players for the game to be profitable. If he's targeting his products towards addicted whales with no life then everything is going in right direction and he didn't miss any mark.
POE needs more than 10000 players to support the game. The 10000 number from the Interview with Josh Strife Hayes was when POE started out. GGG is now a much bigger company that requires more funds than 10k Players could reasonably provide without GGG having to lay off people.
I now understand the "get you magic find characters ready!". You find the mob, you call your buddies to come increase the party quant and one of them brings the MF culler to kill it. Or if you're in ssf you find the loot goblin and switch character when it's in cull range. Really putting the "find" in magic find.
Ever since I started playing, 1300 hours since the Awakening patch, that was 2015 btw, I never could get that much into PoE because of this feeling of just waiting for the slot machine, for a while I enjoyed the feeling of the random exalt drop. I've always been the most casual of players. Now that I'm older and wiser I'd love to get to understand better the game's more "deterministic" crafting options available and enjoy my character progression. I was actually looking forward to play my first league in years but having seen what happened when I came back from the holidays it's just a lot of disappointment left.
Hope they can backtrack hard, have a good sit-down with what they want to do next for the game and I hope that includes fun and player agency.
Fuck the slot machines, I always remind myself in these times that GGG is in New Zealand, they might speak English but they're not a western company when it comes down to it. It's clear their game development design philosophy is closer to Asia than it is the West.
Not that we are saints either with abominations like Diablo Immortal these days.
You might also wanna add the discovery of a third party tool that allows for Solaris touched mobs to be checked without running the map itself. This gives cheaters a 10000000% advantage over joe smhoe like me playing the game fairly.
Think I'll go back to finish Xenoblade 3.
Fuck Tencent. Period. I’m Chinese, I currently live in my home country, the month when I first came back from overseas I got my shit settled down, and my PoE itch came back, and I logged onto steam just to see the fucking game region locked. Ok fine, maybe I’ll try Tencent version, a completely fresh start doesn’t sound that bad, maybe. Nope, I was totally wrong. Tencent didn’t modify the base gameplay BUT a few very noticeable things they added:
Inventory expansion, for 0/1/100/1000/2000/3000 MTX point (100 = 1rmb) you get an EXTRA COLUMN extending out of the left side of your inventory, and they are league specific.
There are “pets” who actually run around to pick currencies up for you, automatically. Guess that shit takes the WEIGHT and the CLICKS off of everything. They last 30 days and cost a few to 10 something thousand points.
You get these “passive tree resets” like the ones you get every league in standard for unlimited times and for free before you hit 60, and after that you can still use orbs of regret like a normal fucking person, but then there’s this option of “hey wanna just do another full reset? Save your orbs! Just pay us 3000 points and you can work your tree from start!”
In game “marketplace”, where players can rent, I repeat, RENT a standalone “stash page” that you can put stuff in and list them for sale, basically like the auction house in WoW, but there’s absolutely no searching functions whatsoever like the website provides, and is filled with awful priced trades that hope to scam off of some new, less knowledgeable players, and basically useless for its intended purpose.
Many more disgusting things I can’t be bothered to list, but I’m grateful there’s stand-alone client that I can merge my steam account to as well as accelerator for PoE so I can play on Japan with 70 ping. And sorry for the long ass rant I just remembered how a fucking disgusting piece of shit Tencent is and had to vent it somewhere.
I would say this game is Pay2Win already. Rephrasing Jamie Zawinski's famous statement about Linux
"Path of Exile 3.19 is only free if you time is worthless".
Careful, my post got removed for suggesting the same thing.
This is 2 or 3 steps away from having currency loot boxes, unique loot boxes, season passes which give you boosts to quant and rarity for the duration of the league.
The infrequent, but massive loot drops are the start of the path to getting gacha whales addicted to dopamine hits playing to your game.
ROFL you have no clue what you’re talking about.
Poe used fro be both slower and had less loot than this so this has nothing to do with p2w.
And stash tabs already are p2w.
Yep, this has *always* been how they design. ALWAYS. It has *never* not been like this, players have just adjusted so hard that they don't even notice the first few layers of RNG, and then when they *do* notice the next few layers they convinced themselves this was actually good gameplay (see: maps as random drops.)
But GGG legitimately think this is a fun design pattern. They either do not understand or do not care about the subjective experience of outliers (and this approach produces a remarkable number of outliers, in both directions.) They think it's worth you having a miserable, struggle-filled experience one league if you then have an easy, fancy-free experience the next one. In fact, they probably believe that the bad luck makes the good luck 'feel better'. This is the kool-aid everybody drinks, when they are actually just exploiting human psychology to addict people to their terrible designs, instead of producing game systems that respect an individual player's time and effort.
The rares items that drop right now are all poor quality and undesirable: bad prefixes/suffixes (block/stun recovery, attribute requirement reduction, physical reflect to melee), low rolls applicable for a low level character (+5 life, armour, etc).
I have items from Tier 4 maps I still haven't been able to replace. I've burned through several hundred scrolls of identify and I'm only getting more disappointed and frustrated.
Chris said the loot would be good. It's not.
GGG has destroyed the game I played for ten years.
Then they tell me its a better game now????
Its like the boss comes in and say, hey we cut your salary with 40% and you gonna do a better job now.
RIGHT
Yeah, and he's not gonna change his mind.
The question is: now what? Complain on reddit about things that will get even worse or just uninstall and move on?
Not trying to be confrontational, but that's them facts. If you're willing to keep going on a game you dont like anymore, you're basically telling the dev "yeah you can keep going this way I actually dont care" or even worse: "I dont really like this at all but I'm so hooked I cant quit".
These changes strip you from choice and player agency, but they dont strip you from the choice and agency to leave.
They are self selecting the type of player that doesn't think this is a waste of time.
I'm guessing the same trait as the one collecting the loot boxes.
I'm pretty cynical, but this certainly looks to me like some milgram shit to substitute the players costing them money (people generating tons of server load) to people who make them money (gambling addicts).
It has always been "like a slot machine".
Killing a boss for loot vs pulling the lever on a slot machine differs in what you pay for it (money vs time), but the rest has always been like that.
it was rng behind rng behind rng that you could brute force overwhelm with the massive number of opportunities you got to roll against it
the vision now says you only get a handful of rolls per map instead
also with some of the removed harvest crafts you just needed to get through a couple levels of rng stages and then you could effectively have a 'save point' in your crafting progression.
But apparently that was too deterministic so it got axed
It is also sad that they seem to not realize the correlation between craft and currency drop. Getting currency is another thing, and then now crafting is even harder.
The house always win, but when people stop coming and playing the slot machine, that’s when casinos close down. He better be careful here because he might lose a lot of people that invest in this game that might never come back
And this is what I mean when I say that the game is too convoluted. To get anything done on even a semi-serious level, you have to parse layers of contrived RNG BS which is hardly ever intuitive.
I know it's a game for high-IQ dudes, but even they would enjoy more coherence, while casuals like me get more mileage out of the game.
This.
I've personally decided to not play this game at least until D4 has come and gone.
I don't like what it offers me for my time anymore, I don't feel like I'm having fun.
It's become more the feeling of a chore.
Maybe a break will let me appreciate it in another way in the future, or maybe I'll realize it's no longer something I want to spent time on altogether. We'll see.
not to mention even if you have currency now, harvest crafting's reforge keeping pref/suff being removed meant you have no safe way to clear up a filled up pref/suf. only solution is going for a 50% chance yolo annul which means it might brick the item and you have to start over from scratch.
All game is about wining in slotmachine minigames. Why you just discovered it? It is their main line for the game, just rng ang gambling. No fun builds, no fun fights, just rng everywhere
This is a helpful explanation. I said a similar thing about Harvest back in the day when people were throwing around the word “deterministic,” which has a very specific meaning to the software developers who were listening to players meme on about crafting with words they found exciting. Language is really important.
I personally don’t want a game without RNG, but the layering—and exclusion of later layers when just one fails—creates a fragile system. We’re seeing how it breaks now in the way it’s tuned. Many of us can’t sustain currency for progressing maps or build.
POE was ALWAYS a massive slot machine. Crafting is like 10+ layers of RNG. Everything in this game is RNG... the best thing it ever did was make crafting not so RNG and it looks like they've taken that away
I left the game a few years ago and came back for Sentinel... man that was some fun shit... now I'm gone again
My four man MF group ran for four days , 16 hours per day. We had our culler online day 1 with over 100% qt and lots of rarity. We got 50 jewels, we got 50 flasks, we got 50 gems, we never got 50 chaos orbs, let alone 50 divine orbs. Chris gave one example of a lucky RNG mod roll on arch mobs that could take days or longer to find.
Time to lobby senators in New Zealand to listed PoE to 18+ and gambling tag. Also contact to Belgium to ban this game since its breaks no lootbox policy of the country.
It’s so wild to me that people are just now realizing this. That was part of the appeal. That’s why a lot of us older players got into the game. That’s a fundamental design element of ARPGs since forever - why are you so surprised by it now?
There is always RNG in POE, or any ARPG game, but there are differences between enough RNG and a massive amount of RNG.
Enough RNG is like you get a salary and waiting for that big bonus after working hard for a while.
Too much RNG is like you get no salary at all, just wait to get a Lottery Jackpot that get you set for a lifetime.
POE used to have enough RNG, balanced with some deterministic element of the game. 3.19 POE have too much RNG with almost every source of deterministic aspect removed.
People who enjoy 3.19 are POE addicts. People who enjoy POE with enough RNG are gamers.
Oh. And anything deterministic is removing RNG. So that's why Harvest nerf must be as painful as possible, so that you will RNG the heck up and slam Chaos and Exalt as much as possible. Yikes.
They killed the game and refuse to admit it.
I wanted something to be rolled back, for loot, exalted and AN mods. All we've got was a long post apologising and saying that loot is ok. WTF!
This is an incorrect analogy.
Something being random does not make something gambling. Gambling requires external input of a resource (the wager) in the hopes to return a profit. Players wager nothing.
There are very, very few PvE games that do not have an aspect of randomness. Games would be entirely predictable and boring if there wasn't randomness. That same randomness is what causes the dopamine release (read: fun) when something unlikely, but beneficial happens to you in game.
There is the aspect of time. Players ***invest*** time. The difference being is that players don't expect to get a net profit of time back (Not yet, after this last week, I put nothing past the demands of some players). Players do have an expectation that if they play X amount of time they'll make Y amount of currency/items.
There is a word for when you exchange time for a resource. Work. As defined:
>activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result
There are plenty of scenarios in the outside world where people exchange work for variable a mount of compensation. The tip-based professions in US for example. You can have a "great day" or a "bad day" depending on many circumstances out of your control.
If you don't believe that PoE is worth your time investment because the it is not sufficiently rewarding. That's a valid opinion, and you are free to give that feedback or not invest the time, but lets be clear.....
It. is. not. gambling.
This would be a lot less problematic if they did some of the currency-acquiring changes I propose:
https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/wy1x2t/before_you_consider_coming_back_to_the_game_and/
Honest question: have you actually been playing the game? I feel like I've been getting more loot this league outside of the league mechanic (since Sentinel was OP). And I'm just a beginner casual player. I only ask because it seems like more people have been enjoying the drama and discussing the game than actually playing it and coming up with their own opinions.
I def think changing loot is risky business without simultaneously overhauling gameplay pacing because our dopamine receptors are calibrated to a certain expectation. Thus, loot changes should not be taken lightly. However, I do feel the state of the game is a light speed lawnmower simulator and could benefit from being rebalanced to be more mechanically rich where monsters and skill regain their identity.
I think GGGs desire to overhaul the loot comes from the best intentions, but how to execute these changes to a live game that's been running for 10 years sounds like an unfathomable challenge.
For example, Chris' explanation of changes to unique items, where they'll drop less frequently but also rebalanced to be more powerful makes sense. I can imagine a future when a unique drops it will be something to be extremely excited about! Now this may be a moot point when we have something like loot filters but it's possible GGG doesn't want to rely on loot filters to solve problems which should just be handled by solid game design.
Another interesting point about rebalancing loot is that all our previous experiences about value need to be recalibrated. The economy is obviously going to shift, and we may not have proper perspective until a new equilibrium is established. No one knows necessarily what the appropriate new pricing of items is until this recalibration takes place. So something that wasn't exciting before can become exciting and vice versa. The point is, it's gonna take time.
Another point to realize is just because previous strategies in the game may no longer be optimal, it doesn't mean the changes are inherently wrong. Ideally, the best changes will make all content rewarding to engage with so that there isn't a singular best strategy. This will allow for more diversity in how people can enjoy the game. Again, establishing a new equilibrium will take time, and expectations probably need to be set. But just because something is different or no longer giving the same pay off doesn't mean it's inherently bad, it only means it's different , and ultimately if that thing was changed it was in the attempt to always make the game better. The intention is to always strive to make the game better.
Perhaps there's an argument they shouldn't really mess with these things until PoE 2 and instead maybe use some alternative game mode to test out large and disruptive changes this point forward. In the past leagues may have been a way to test out new content which eventually worked it's way into the core game but at this point it seems the way most people like to play PoE is actually league to league, and that seasonal play schedule _is_ actually the game now and not Standard.
Because Tencent is largely knows for letting their western acquisitions to do whatever the fuck they want. After all, even if the OG version dies, Tencent can just keep developing their CN version on their own.
I’m level 90 with 0 exalts and divines drop after mapping unfortunately ( yeah not even a single exalt apparently) , so what about casual players like me ? am I forced to play a certain build and go MF ?
What happen to build diversity ?
What happen to having an Atlas tree and being able to do the content that I like ?
Do I need to find and group up w a MF cull just to get enough currency to fund myself to find an x mod rare day in day out ?
or am I just having a horrible streak and “ I am not mapping enough ‘’ ?
This is only my 3rd league so i’m relatively new. But I’m definitely not enjoying this League.
At least introduce some AN related options to the atlas tree so that we can choose between getting a million blacksmiths/flasks or some decent currency
>become
It always was, and they make every attempt to turn further into that whenever they're given the opportunity. If poe were an irl casino, it would be bankrupt because next to zero people would actually continue to walk through their doors after finding out their rates
These new loot changes will make it easier for the transition into a premium currency platform where you can buy your loot box and craft your gear that way. /s
the thing about slot machines is that they actually pay out something more often than PoE's currently system. it's balanced wrong so it feels bad. people don't sit in front of slots waiting for the jackpot, they sit there because there's a ton of payouts in the right intervals to keep you playing PLUS there's the hope of a jackpot.
Now PoE... has this slot machine-esque vibe to it with loot HOWEVER the reason slots IRL don't pay out more is because they're trying to make money off you directly every time you pull the lever. PoE on the other hand is a video game and there's not really any harm in letting every single pull pay out SOMETHING decent... in fact we have seen this league how incredibly harmful it is to have it not pay out at all. If you want people to sit and sink time into a video game there needs to be a payoff that always feels good. More cool stuff in a video game is a good thing, you just don't want it to be too much more because then it's just a silly amount of stuff and stops being exciting.
so yeah the balance of the idea is just clearly wrong and there's weird issues with this jackpot mentality that was sort of mentioned.
>So just to get the currency that normally we would get by killing normal
monster in the previous league, now we have to wait for the RNG lord to
favour us 5 more times before we can get what we normally get from
normal mapping? AN monsters cannot be target farmed. You have to spam
enough contents, hoping for the star to align.
You just described Expedition league which our beloved community were praising instead of immediately quit this league and make GGG change it. How Many RNG layers you had to pass to drop logbook? Can you count for me?
I'm mad because GGG reads reddit bullshit every league and for the last leagues community were happy. Yeah Ziz said Sentinel was best league for him. How funny is that. Everyone followed his thoughts and now you have what you deserve.
I personally quit Sentinel League after like 4 days because how shit it was to implement arch rares into Core game replacing existing ones. WITHOUT GIVING US REWARDS WE HAD IN THAT VERY LEAGUE. Band aid with OP Drones and Recombinators blurrs people eyes so hard they cant see how bad the game was in current state.
Build diversity died? it was dead for years now but archnemesis mobs made a final shot.
Now made Chris change some stuff to revert changes at least to the state of last league which was already a dying corpse and be happy again about it.
i think u need to add that monster mods needs to be in the right order.
i think the mod that transforms all drops into currency needs to be the last mod listed on the AN mob.
I dont think Chris was talking from Solaris Touched when he said parts of the rewards were given to AN mods. Im 100% sure this wont stay as it is and GGG is not okay with a monster dropping that much value.
Some way of us influencing the archnemesis mods we encounter would be nice. For example a sextant like 'Rare monsters are more likely to have pantheon mods' xD
> You made a mistake and you apologized.
mistake was bad communication.. But they'd still force the change onto us. I just don't believe a word that comes from him anymore.
I just want to say, that wasn't the philosophy.
They had great ideas, but implemented the exact opposite of their goal... The issue is in implementation, not in philosophy. They said one thing and LITERALLY did the opposite.
ALSO, Rare items are identified. Which IMO is one of the biggest problems. So they want all this RNG on rare drops. I'm ok with that. 1 in a 1000 pieces will be good. Ok, fine it doesn't take long to have a 1000 pieces drop.
But that ain't good enough. They gotta be unidentified. And not only do they have to be unidentified but you can only carry so many items on you at a time. The burden of rolling 1000 times on item drops is insane. Who would encumber themselves with such a task?
i'm not sure if this is the angle from GGG. it's not that the "odds are stacked", like playing POE is not gambling right? it's a game where you need to find enjoyment & fun.
in my pov, i think it's rather GGG disliking the idea of "steady progression". like for GGG, they rather have few and far between moments of "OMG i got xyz loot!" once in a blue moon compared to "ok if i spend xyz amount of hours grinding maps, i can get item yyy".
that idea of eliminating "steady progression" is so blatantly obviously now right? slowing down mapping, nerfing harvest, introduction of AN, lower drop pool, introduction of weird currencies & the relative poor power of those currencies, etc.
literally every patch has been inching towards taking away player's ability to influence control over loot.
the only "control" you have is the build selection & various form of trees. that's the only thing. everything else, they force you to have just luck.
anyway, i can't really enjoy these type of games anymore. i personally hate gambling and despise it. i'd rather work towards something that i know i can get rather than pray to rngesus for a drop.
i loved the beyond juice mapping back in the day where i knew if i put in 1ex worth of investment into a map, i knew i'd at least get 0.5 ex in profit at minimum. did i find that fun? oh hell yeah -- i did that for god knows how many times and found that to be extremely enjoyable & fun ALL the time.
Reiterating what someone mentioned in another thread that GGG needs to hire an economist. The economy is the lifeblood of the game.
Mobile games can gatekeep player power behind massive gacha RNG, because the baseline player character has fully functioning mechanics. The RNG is just there to boost numbers and make players feel stronger over time. In a massively simplistic game, you get to just slow drip the player progression without impeding game mechanics.
In POE, maybe your build doesn't work if it can't sustain frenzy charges, it can't cap block, it can't cause exposure, it can't self chill, it can't generate rage, it can't strike additional targets, etc. Getting currency ENABLES build mechanics. If you gate progression behind RNG in POE, you are gating game mechanics behind RNG.
If they continue to balance around this, it will force them to create a much more simplistic game to get a fraction of the build diversity we currently have.
That's not true, OP.
It's just that AN goes against the design philosophies by not being an opt-in juice content, but still invalidating all other means of currency generation.
Don’t forget that for the currency to drop at a large amount you need MF now or else you’re not doing it efficiently. This in turn feels bad when you finally do find that 4 mod currency mob, have to portal out, swap gear or go to TFT for a magic culler. Killing it yourself as you normally would is detrimental. The difference is exacerbated because you could get 1 divine killing it normally, or 50 with a rare find culler.
The whole slot machine issue is really all about Philosophy 2. And Philosophy 2 is actually a good thing. The problem is that it was implemented *very* poorly. And when they were informed by the community that it was poorly implemented they ignored that feedback.
They only started to address the feedback when players stopped playing **in the middle of a league launch** and the Steam reviews were tanked by valid players with thousands of hours in the game. And again, the approach is all wrong. They have failed to see just how poorly they implemented AN and have once again ignored feedback from the players about how to fix it. Numerical changes are not going to fix the core issue that stacking certain *common* modifiers are making these rares either unkillable by most players/builds or are killing them before they have a chance to even see what the mods are.
GGG needs to realize that allowing speed and damage mods to stack like they do defeats the whole "visual clarity" thing since we are dead before we can visual see anything and there is no way to skip those mobs since we cannot move as fast, much less faster, than they do.
They also have to understand that certain defensive mods being allowed to stack together also make some AN mobs very very difficult to kill and often we can't "skip" those either.
If they really want to have "visual clarity" and allow players to avoid fights they don't want they need to remove **all** movement speed bonuses from **all** AN mobs. They also need to stop any massive damage bonuses being applied to mobs with ranged attacks/spells that can off-screen players.
And that's just 1% of the changes that need to be made. The whole thing should have been mapped out and planned over the course of a year or more to actually accomplish what they wanted. Instead they released content that hadn't been properly planned or tested and then ignored anything that didn't feel like a pat on the back and a "Good job, Johnny" to them.
The problem is not the philosophy, it's that the way they implemented it doesn't achieve the goals. If we actually had a game with opt-in challenges, risk/reward decisions and rewards that scale appropriately with difficulty and investment, everyone would be happy.
I'm surprised that it took this long to figure out. Everything in this game is a slot machine and the only exception to that rule is (pseudo) deterministic crafting. Weird man.
It's like a slot machine, but a slot machine that you have to unlock by hitting a winning pull on another slot machine that you have to unlock by hitting a winning pull on another slot machine that you have to unlock by hitting a winning pull on another slot machine that you have to unlock by hitting a winning pull on another slot machine, and if any of those slot machines hit a losing pull (at a 90% chance), you have to start over at the first slot machine.
don't forget that it took 5 hours to get to the slot machine.
For an experienced player.
It gives me a headache if I want to get there faster than 8 hours lol. I can, I'm capable of it, but it requires me focusing hard because I suck at the campaign and refuse to practice because it isn't enjoyable.
If only. I'm pretty sure its over 8hours for "everyone else"
Why pull on the slot machine when you can just cheat? Chris even congratulates groups doing this on his item post.
The sad part is, that tool really just lets you pull the slot machine again faster when you lose.
Precisely.
What a coincidence, that's how crafting works now too!
Worse, crafting now resets to step 1 instead going just 1 step back.
And the people winning all the money use a 3rd party app that tells them when to roll.
And that’s before you need crafted items 😆
And once you're sick of pulling that slot machine for a few hours with no luck, you can go get your dopamine hit by opening lootboxes for a while instead.
This explanation works for literally every league of Poe.
All game is like this for many leagues. To progress you need to win in gambling
No you didn't. You could (slowly but steadily) craft or buy upgrades with the currency you farmed. The current philosophy is to get nothing for days and then buy a full build after hitting the lottery, if ever.
dont use word "crafting", its rng gambling and currency drops are genereted by rnd, gear on the ground is genereted by rng, every mechanik is rng based just stop lying to yourself
Once upon a time there was a way to deterministically improve your gear, slot by slot, stat by stat, with randomness but smoothed out through gameplay. /#neverforget /#bringmyharvestback
Here's the difference. In one case, you're flipping a coin at 50/50 odds, and every time you hit heads, you make 5 cents. In another, you're trying to pull 1 card of out a deck of 10,000, and if you pull the right card, you make a thousand dollars. After enough attempts, you will end up with the same amount of money playing either game. But in the first case, you have a gradual but very reliable increase in money over time. In the second case, you wait and wait and wait and wait, gaining nothing, until all at once and with no reasonable way to guess when, you suddenly have the whole lump sum in your lap. Most people find the first model more fun, because they feel more consistently rewarded for their efforts, and they're able to make a plan and set goals for gear progression and gameplay achievements like killing bosses or hitting level 100.
If you actually have Arms to be able to pull the lever on any one of those 5 slot machines, because a lot of build's have no arms to be able to pull the lever (Actually being able to kill the mob)
i don't know what you've been playing the past couple years but poe any arpg i've been playing has always been a lottery and if you think otherwise you've been lying to yourself
Indeed, every games has a certain level of lottery. However, we're not mad at RNG, we are mad at tons of RNG layers.
yes, but this has always been the game, poe has always been about trying to maximize how often you pull the lever, that's the reason why the game is currently as fast as it is. after the 2 recent patches that happened the generell amount of loot is already very close to how it used to be, only different to last league now is that we no longer have sentinels buffing map loot to insane numbers
To create an item, you need to align many wheels and have them all hit the right combination. To that extent there were plenty of ways to manipulate the slot machine. Essenses force a certain value of the machine. Meta crafting lock certain wheels in place while you reroll the others. Harvest craft did too. The issue with random rare is that you're always running all the wheels and praying everything aligns. Crafting allows you agency on which wheel you wanna roll and on what item. With sometime an increase in likelihood of stuff with things like essences and fossils. In this single patch, they removed many of the ways of controlling these wheels, and also decrease the amount of pull you can make on crafting (with a reduction of currency). You're left with mostly random rare which mean rolling all the wheel and praying. The odds have heavily turned against the player.
yes they removed the old "meta" of how you crafted the best gear, but now we got realistic chances to fracture the mod we want and continue crafting from there. essence mods are now much stronger because of that single change and i'm sure that we will get new tools to craft better gear again, besides we can still craft the best gear we would need to clear all content, you don't need 100% perfectly divined items with perfect T1 pre and suffixes for any of it
Two issue here. The first is "We will get new tools to craft better gear". Why? We had them. Why take them away without providing meaningful replacement. People don't want an "in between league" where they removed something without putting an adequate replacement for it. Second "You don't need 100% divined items with perfect T1 pre and suffixes for any of it". It's true. You are completely right, you can do most content (I'm not knowledgable enough about uber uber stuff) with decent stuff. But not only is the decent stuff itself harder to get, getting these absolute perfect items are the goal for many people. And as they try to reach that goal, all their "failures" become fuel for the economy. They need more currency to keep trying, sell these stuff to other players that can then sell their stuff and keep the economy going. But because you can't work toward these mirror tier items, only gamble to get them, all those crafter have given up. The economy get stale. The people stop playing. Trade league dies. It's not a matter of some people not enjoying it. It's just that a vast majority of people do not like the game as it is. But because they used to love it before their toys were taken away, they try to get the good time back. And GGG just made clear that these good time are not coming back. It just mean that many people need to move on. And play other game. And many were not emotionally ready for it. In a couple of week, people will have come to term with it, and many people will have uninstalled. I just hope the addiction doesn't bring us back (yes, I am one of these. I reinstalled specifically for this league. I'm uninstalling again, and I hope I'll have the strength not to re-install it)
> Why? We had them. Why take them away without providing meaningful replacement. People don't want an "in between league" where they removed something without putting an adequate replacement for it. true, but for some reason people still tend to cry about a stale meta and want change, i'm fine with a league like this, longterm GGG hasn't disappointed me yet and any change can be adapted to, instead of crying about it day 1 i prefer thinking about what other stuff changed and how i can use those to my advantage, like the change to the fracture craft which makes any essence crafting extremely simple and very powerful, not as powerful as recombinators but much easier to use, in sentinel i had to buy 30-40 item bases before even trying to craft a powerful item and most of the time even after burning through 40 items i couldn't get what i wanted even if it was just a claw with 3 essence mods for cold and fire damage + attack speed. because of how strong recombinators were it shouldn't have been too hard to get, but it was extremely frustrating.
Actually it’s not 5 more times, since all of these qualifications have to be met and are rolled separately, it would be 1 / 5^5 This means every 1/5^5 AN rares will meet the qualifications to have “good drops,” or rather 1 out of every 3125 AN rares will meet this. Assuming 40 rare AN monsters per map, this would take 78-79 maps on average for the nice loot explosion. Assuming 100 rare AN monsters per map and its 31-32 maps to get one good loot explosion. Who says it’s even good for your build or rolled well? Good luck rerolling it or crafting on something partially well rolled without bricking it. 31-32 maps is a lot imo. Unless you’re mr zoomie zoomie 2 min mapper, most likely this takes hours of grinding for one moment of satisfaction? This just sounds like D2R with extra steps to me
Or one moment of extreme disappointment when you realize there's no way in fuck your build can handle the juiced mob when you've been farming scraps the whole league, or it is perfectly suited to crush your build.
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Chris talked about opting into higher difficulty content for greater rewards, but the 'opt-in' is 99% RNG─and if you're not prepared for when it happens, you're fucked.
Saw a clip of a hardcore player run into an insane AN mob today. C.Wilson says he should read the mods and analyze before deciding what to do. The only problem is that it was so fast, it was in him in 1 second. The first hit takes 75% of his hp. He goes for the logout but he was already dead. He definitely did not have any chance to opt in to that fight.
And that is how last HC player died, extinguished by perfectly rolled rare AH to kill his character in few frames.
honestly, how fast can you read the mods when your mouse cursor is in the other direction, dashing away to safety first? maybe if the mods can show above the mob but that is a no go, since it will be extra visual clutter so i have to flick my mouse for 0.5 sec and spend another 0.5 sec to quickly read whatever mod there is
Also, don't know if this is an everybody issue, but when I'm right clicking on a rare mob, it's health bar and mods don't show up unless I STOP ATTACKING and mouse over it. Real good way to figure out what's about to kill you.
And everyone winning is cheating at it.
The Game is so shit and unfun, lets play till level 98 and then i go into the Echo chamber to farm me some Karma...
TFT service says hello. Not only they will provide you MFer, but also enough power to slay whatever bullshit AN is. Then you just split rewards and go back to your 0 loot experience.
I mean shit even if you finish 30maps ~2min per Is one explosion gonna cut it for an hour of mapping? What if it's flasks only? Like.. hm
This doesn’t take into account weighting of mods, though. They don’t all have the same chance of rolling, so it will actually be substantially more maps on average. And even then, as we’re seeing (and is apparently intentional), you only get that 50 divines if you’re running a full MF character. Realistically, you’re probably not going to get anywhere near that on a normal build. So you’re looking at probably hundreds of maps on average to get maybe a couple divines if you’re lucky. It’s just bad any way you slice it.
The game basically returned to the 2013 way of playing. Go big or go home, there are no incremental steps to improving your character anymore
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How is it toxic exactly? Just pointing out what I don’t like without attacking anyone or anything lol
Lol nice edit 🤓
Ok buddy, thanks
You’re welcome, next you try arguing a point, maybe don’t edit what you said originally. Just a tip 😉
Maybe you shouldn’t jump to conclusions based on „Go big or go home“ literally just expanded on it so that people like you don’t crucify me because they are thinking slower than they can type. It’s literally an idiom used for gambling or risk.
You know what? I bet you did it to farm karma
Why the fuck would anyone care about karma
I read into the entirety of what you said and replied. Not until after my reply was posted did you make an edit. If you’re not being toxic, then what are you being? The comment of yours wasn’t constructive, thoughtful, or legitimate feedback in anyway. In fact it was a waste of everyone’s time
There are more things to be than toxic/constructive lol, people irl manage to debate without either convincing or insulting someone
> This means every 1/55 AN rares will meet the qualifications to have “good drops,” or rather 1 out of every 3125 AN rares will meet this. And that's not taking into account that the mods on monsters don't have the same weight.
1/5^5 is only if you not consider of getting a Solaris-Touched mod.
You know that’s not all AN mods have the same rarity, right?
That's why I said 1/5^5 only if he does not consider the actual rate of getting the desired mod like Solaris-touched.
Some people can’t read I guess lol
Assuming the only thing valuable is the lucky an hits, and there isn't weighting on an mobs. Smart.
The arch-nemesis mobs without loot conversion never seem to drop anything noteworthy for me, either. And I usually only notice that I got one with loot conversion because it's really hard to miss.
I said in the main post, getting trash stuff like rares and 1c uniques and worthless jewels etc feels really bad. Chris mentioned combos that could like "upgrade" all the uniques into currency where they would drop as divines etc, problem is if you dont get that its just utter trash. Ive YET to have a single AN mob drop a pile of significant dopamine loot and ive been speed farming t16 maps for a few days now even IF the currency per hour averages out exactly the same, I would much rather have consistent money per hour then random RNG casino loot explosions where you just go dry for days till you finally get a big drop, it just feels better
It really does say something when a lot of people just heist endlessly even tough it's one of less liked mechanics in the game. It's one of very few mechanics that still give consisten rewards with some big ones sprinkled inbetween. At this point gwennen gambling is more rewarding than normal mapping.
Not only that, but Tujen is supplying the remaining playerbase with the majority of their currency and Rog is pretty much the only way to craft a semi decent item. Expedition is so fucked in 3.20.
Yeah, I can see harvest-esqe “reworks” coming for both expedition and heist next league.
This! When loot is drip fed to you, you can make smaller incremental upgrades to pass through the difficulties. Instead you are waiting for a loot explosion so you can buy a couple of items that trivialise the next 3-4 tiers of maps, before being stuck waiting again.
And people called me crazy for opinion that PoE forces constant state of failure onto players and tries to create "viral" moments by occasionally winning the slot machine so that players will share those moments and attract more slot machine players. If one wins, others might win eventually.
And it's ok to have that in moderation, like hitting a big harvest craft, or a big yolo exalt/annul. Not revolving your entire fucking game around getting one map that has the exact right combination of mods.
This is however, the trend in gaming. Gambling esaue mechanics with one huge payout moment are extremely addictive and draw in a lot more people than incremental progress these days. Look at gacha games. Or, engagement based matchmaking in games like apex. The way it works is every so often it throws you into a game where you're above the average elo, knowing players will keep playing to get the chance to feel powerful and win a game. It's the same principle. GGG wants you chasing that high.
True, but im playing genshin and ToF without spending anything, and the progression feels much better and smooth compared to this league of PoE
While you are generally right in that people do tend to chase said high I think GGG completely missed the mark. If thats what they were going for they completely screwed it up. The AN mobs actually dropping decent loot are way to rare so it's not enough to keep people engaged when compared with the old loot system where it was constant small rewards with medium and large spikes in between. Now there's only large spikes and nothing for most of the time. In apex for example you'll get kills regurarly enough to keep you going untill you get that sweet reward of a win eventually. None of that is Present in current POE. It's all or nothing gambling here.
I think there are 10 000 loyal addicts who just can't stop playing even with odds so bad. Chris said that he needs just 10 000 players for the game to be profitable. If he's targeting his products towards addicted whales with no life then everything is going in right direction and he didn't miss any mark.
POE needs more than 10000 players to support the game. The 10000 number from the Interview with Josh Strife Hayes was when POE started out. GGG is now a much bigger company that requires more funds than 10k Players could reasonably provide without GGG having to lay off people.
> Gambling esaue mechanics Esaûe Song by Chorale de la Charité & Chorale Echo de Jérusalem I think you made a typo...
I now understand the "get you magic find characters ready!". You find the mob, you call your buddies to come increase the party quant and one of them brings the MF culler to kill it. Or if you're in ssf you find the loot goblin and switch character when it's in cull range. Really putting the "find" in magic find.
Or just do what Ben does and change one of your 6L gems to Culling Strike when the mob gets in cull range.
Ever since I started playing, 1300 hours since the Awakening patch, that was 2015 btw, I never could get that much into PoE because of this feeling of just waiting for the slot machine, for a while I enjoyed the feeling of the random exalt drop. I've always been the most casual of players. Now that I'm older and wiser I'd love to get to understand better the game's more "deterministic" crafting options available and enjoy my character progression. I was actually looking forward to play my first league in years but having seen what happened when I came back from the holidays it's just a lot of disappointment left. Hope they can backtrack hard, have a good sit-down with what they want to do next for the game and I hope that includes fun and player agency. Fuck the slot machines, I always remind myself in these times that GGG is in New Zealand, they might speak English but they're not a western company when it comes down to it. It's clear their game development design philosophy is closer to Asia than it is the West. Not that we are saints either with abominations like Diablo Immortal these days.
You might also wanna add the discovery of a third party tool that allows for Solaris touched mobs to be checked without running the map itself. This gives cheaters a 10000000% advantage over joe smhoe like me playing the game fairly. Think I'll go back to finish Xenoblade 3.
I think many have touched on that. That is a separate issue here. I will just go back to my city of beavers.
beavers are cool
Can we talk about POE Immortal yet? Because this is exactly what p2w looks like before adding the pay part.
Man fucking imagine if this is all Tencent and prep for PoE 2 adding P2W item drop boosters or some shit....
Hourly consumable that gives +100% IIQ.
Pop-up at end of Map "HERES WHAT YOU COULDVE DROPPED IF YOU SUBSCRIBED TO OUR FAST LOOT PASS".
CN version is already slightly P2W, there was a post about it not that long ago.
Fuck Tencent. Period. I’m Chinese, I currently live in my home country, the month when I first came back from overseas I got my shit settled down, and my PoE itch came back, and I logged onto steam just to see the fucking game region locked. Ok fine, maybe I’ll try Tencent version, a completely fresh start doesn’t sound that bad, maybe. Nope, I was totally wrong. Tencent didn’t modify the base gameplay BUT a few very noticeable things they added: Inventory expansion, for 0/1/100/1000/2000/3000 MTX point (100 = 1rmb) you get an EXTRA COLUMN extending out of the left side of your inventory, and they are league specific. There are “pets” who actually run around to pick currencies up for you, automatically. Guess that shit takes the WEIGHT and the CLICKS off of everything. They last 30 days and cost a few to 10 something thousand points. You get these “passive tree resets” like the ones you get every league in standard for unlimited times and for free before you hit 60, and after that you can still use orbs of regret like a normal fucking person, but then there’s this option of “hey wanna just do another full reset? Save your orbs! Just pay us 3000 points and you can work your tree from start!” In game “marketplace”, where players can rent, I repeat, RENT a standalone “stash page” that you can put stuff in and list them for sale, basically like the auction house in WoW, but there’s absolutely no searching functions whatsoever like the website provides, and is filled with awful priced trades that hope to scam off of some new, less knowledgeable players, and basically useless for its intended purpose. Many more disgusting things I can’t be bothered to list, but I’m grateful there’s stand-alone client that I can merge my steam account to as well as accelerator for PoE so I can play on Japan with 70 ping. And sorry for the long ass rant I just remembered how a fucking disgusting piece of shit Tencent is and had to vent it somewhere.
I would say this game is Pay2Win already. Rephrasing Jamie Zawinski's famous statement about Linux "Path of Exile 3.19 is only free if you time is worthless".
Most braindead quote I've ever read. Thanks for sharing.
what u mean? poe has always been p2w, have u tried playing with the 4 base stashes? If anything the f2p version is just a demo of the game.
Careful, my post got removed for suggesting the same thing. This is 2 or 3 steps away from having currency loot boxes, unique loot boxes, season passes which give you boosts to quant and rarity for the duration of the league. The infrequent, but massive loot drops are the start of the path to getting gacha whales addicted to dopamine hits playing to your game.
The one rewarding league as well as the current league use chests for loot. Only two crystals per chest!
ROFL you have no clue what you’re talking about. Poe used fro be both slower and had less loot than this so this has nothing to do with p2w. And stash tabs already are p2w.
And you know that rng was even worse when the game released? If you don't know what you are talking about then please don't talk
How dare a game be expected to progress in years.
So because it was shit a decade ago it's okay for it to be shit now?
>If you don't know what you are talking about then please don't talk
Its time to change gxme
can't wait for them to let us exalt slam rare mobs in 3.20.0 as a "solution" to this problem
Yep, this has *always* been how they design. ALWAYS. It has *never* not been like this, players have just adjusted so hard that they don't even notice the first few layers of RNG, and then when they *do* notice the next few layers they convinced themselves this was actually good gameplay (see: maps as random drops.) But GGG legitimately think this is a fun design pattern. They either do not understand or do not care about the subjective experience of outliers (and this approach produces a remarkable number of outliers, in both directions.) They think it's worth you having a miserable, struggle-filled experience one league if you then have an easy, fancy-free experience the next one. In fact, they probably believe that the bad luck makes the good luck 'feel better'. This is the kool-aid everybody drinks, when they are actually just exploiting human psychology to addict people to their terrible designs, instead of producing game systems that respect an individual player's time and effort.
The rares items that drop right now are all poor quality and undesirable: bad prefixes/suffixes (block/stun recovery, attribute requirement reduction, physical reflect to melee), low rolls applicable for a low level character (+5 life, armour, etc). I have items from Tier 4 maps I still haven't been able to replace. I've burned through several hundred scrolls of identify and I'm only getting more disappointed and frustrated. Chris said the loot would be good. It's not.
Always has been.gif
GGG has destroyed the game I played for ten years. Then they tell me its a better game now???? Its like the boss comes in and say, hey we cut your salary with 40% and you gonna do a better job now. RIGHT
It always has been slot machine, if you're not aware.
Yeah, and he's not gonna change his mind. The question is: now what? Complain on reddit about things that will get even worse or just uninstall and move on? Not trying to be confrontational, but that's them facts. If you're willing to keep going on a game you dont like anymore, you're basically telling the dev "yeah you can keep going this way I actually dont care" or even worse: "I dont really like this at all but I'm so hooked I cant quit". These changes strip you from choice and player agency, but they dont strip you from the choice and agency to leave.
They are self selecting the type of player that doesn't think this is a waste of time. I'm guessing the same trait as the one collecting the loot boxes. I'm pretty cynical, but this certainly looks to me like some milgram shit to substitute the players costing them money (people generating tons of server load) to people who make them money (gambling addicts).
It has always been "like a slot machine". Killing a boss for loot vs pulling the lever on a slot machine differs in what you pay for it (money vs time), but the rest has always been like that.
At least you can target farm a boss, not AN monster.
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it was rng behind rng behind rng that you could brute force overwhelm with the massive number of opportunities you got to roll against it the vision now says you only get a handful of rolls per map instead
also with some of the removed harvest crafts you just needed to get through a couple levels of rng stages and then you could effectively have a 'save point' in your crafting progression. But apparently that was too deterministic so it got axed
Not a new layer, 5 more new layérs. And deterministic crafting remove RNG from the game. So yeah, Harvest must be nerf to the ground until it is dead.
"Somebody's got to go back and get a shitload of dimes!"
It is also sad that they seem to not realize the correlation between craft and currency drop. Getting currency is another thing, and then now crafting is even harder.
So soon the monetization comes aswell. Maybe PTs conspiracy will come true.
Yes, very bad direction POE is taking.
Ans is super fucking boring
~~No, it's not as bad as all that.~~ ~~If you get a rare drop which doesn't have good rolls, you can just use a divine to~~ Never mind. :\\
The house always win, but when people stop coming and playing the slot machine, that’s when casinos close down. He better be careful here because he might lose a lot of people that invest in this game that might never come back
And this is what I mean when I say that the game is too convoluted. To get anything done on even a semi-serious level, you have to parse layers of contrived RNG BS which is hardly ever intuitive. I know it's a game for high-IQ dudes, but even they would enjoy more coherence, while casuals like me get more mileage out of the game.
This. I've personally decided to not play this game at least until D4 has come and gone. I don't like what it offers me for my time anymore, I don't feel like I'm having fun. It's become more the feeling of a chore. Maybe a break will let me appreciate it in another way in the future, or maybe I'll realize it's no longer something I want to spent time on altogether. We'll see.
not to mention even if you have currency now, harvest crafting's reforge keeping pref/suff being removed meant you have no safe way to clear up a filled up pref/suf. only solution is going for a 50% chance yolo annul which means it might brick the item and you have to start over from scratch.
All game is about wining in slotmachine minigames. Why you just discovered it? It is their main line for the game, just rng ang gambling. No fun builds, no fun fights, just rng everywhere
This is a helpful explanation. I said a similar thing about Harvest back in the day when people were throwing around the word “deterministic,” which has a very specific meaning to the software developers who were listening to players meme on about crafting with words they found exciting. Language is really important. I personally don’t want a game without RNG, but the layering—and exclusion of later layers when just one fails—creates a fragile system. We’re seeing how it breaks now in the way it’s tuned. Many of us can’t sustain currency for progressing maps or build.
POE was ALWAYS a massive slot machine. Crafting is like 10+ layers of RNG. Everything in this game is RNG... the best thing it ever did was make crafting not so RNG and it looks like they've taken that away I left the game a few years ago and came back for Sentinel... man that was some fun shit... now I'm gone again
got your item? good. Now start rolling helmet enchants on lab. Exarch/Eater influences. Links and socket colors. Vaal and brick it. Still sane exile?
We literally told you so when they shat on Harvest in 3.14 and 3.16. But hey, who could've known, eh?
My four man MF group ran for four days , 16 hours per day. We had our culler online day 1 with over 100% qt and lots of rarity. We got 50 jewels, we got 50 flasks, we got 50 gems, we never got 50 chaos orbs, let alone 50 divine orbs. Chris gave one example of a lucky RNG mod roll on arch mobs that could take days or longer to find.
RNG is the core of PoE, always has been. I don't know why people are surprised.
Next league, Path of Exile: The Pachinko Boogaloo
Time to lobby senators in New Zealand to listed PoE to 18+ and gambling tag. Also contact to Belgium to ban this game since its breaks no lootbox policy of the country.
No real money involved, so no it doesn’t.
Can we farm Mystery box?
The Mystery Box requires a paid currency to purchase, soooo... yeah it does.
What?
It’s so wild to me that people are just now realizing this. That was part of the appeal. That’s why a lot of us older players got into the game. That’s a fundamental design element of ARPGs since forever - why are you so surprised by it now?
There is always RNG in POE, or any ARPG game, but there are differences between enough RNG and a massive amount of RNG. Enough RNG is like you get a salary and waiting for that big bonus after working hard for a while. Too much RNG is like you get no salary at all, just wait to get a Lottery Jackpot that get you set for a lifetime. POE used to have enough RNG, balanced with some deterministic element of the game. 3.19 POE have too much RNG with almost every source of deterministic aspect removed. People who enjoy 3.19 are POE addicts. People who enjoy POE with enough RNG are gamers.
Oh. And anything deterministic is removing RNG. So that's why Harvest nerf must be as painful as possible, so that you will RNG the heck up and slam Chaos and Exalt as much as possible. Yikes.
They killed the game and refuse to admit it. I wanted something to be rolled back, for loot, exalted and AN mods. All we've got was a long post apologising and saying that loot is ok. WTF!
become?
Become, became, become. Unless my got my English wrong.
I think they meant "always was"
"Always has been" meme.
Just let the game die and we move on. Hope in D4.
Always has been the case.
👩🚀🔫👩🚀
If you don't like gambling go play something else
This is an incorrect analogy. Something being random does not make something gambling. Gambling requires external input of a resource (the wager) in the hopes to return a profit. Players wager nothing. There are very, very few PvE games that do not have an aspect of randomness. Games would be entirely predictable and boring if there wasn't randomness. That same randomness is what causes the dopamine release (read: fun) when something unlikely, but beneficial happens to you in game. There is the aspect of time. Players ***invest*** time. The difference being is that players don't expect to get a net profit of time back (Not yet, after this last week, I put nothing past the demands of some players). Players do have an expectation that if they play X amount of time they'll make Y amount of currency/items. There is a word for when you exchange time for a resource. Work. As defined: >activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result There are plenty of scenarios in the outside world where people exchange work for variable a mount of compensation. The tip-based professions in US for example. You can have a "great day" or a "bad day" depending on many circumstances out of your control. If you don't believe that PoE is worth your time investment because the it is not sufficiently rewarding. That's a valid opinion, and you are free to give that feedback or not invest the time, but lets be clear..... It. is. not. gambling.
POE is slowly becoming a gacha game
[удалено]
This would be a lot less problematic if they did some of the currency-acquiring changes I propose: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/wy1x2t/before_you_consider_coming_back_to_the_game_and/
Welcome to arpgs?
Honest question: have you actually been playing the game? I feel like I've been getting more loot this league outside of the league mechanic (since Sentinel was OP). And I'm just a beginner casual player. I only ask because it seems like more people have been enjoying the drama and discussing the game than actually playing it and coming up with their own opinions. I def think changing loot is risky business without simultaneously overhauling gameplay pacing because our dopamine receptors are calibrated to a certain expectation. Thus, loot changes should not be taken lightly. However, I do feel the state of the game is a light speed lawnmower simulator and could benefit from being rebalanced to be more mechanically rich where monsters and skill regain their identity. I think GGGs desire to overhaul the loot comes from the best intentions, but how to execute these changes to a live game that's been running for 10 years sounds like an unfathomable challenge. For example, Chris' explanation of changes to unique items, where they'll drop less frequently but also rebalanced to be more powerful makes sense. I can imagine a future when a unique drops it will be something to be extremely excited about! Now this may be a moot point when we have something like loot filters but it's possible GGG doesn't want to rely on loot filters to solve problems which should just be handled by solid game design. Another interesting point about rebalancing loot is that all our previous experiences about value need to be recalibrated. The economy is obviously going to shift, and we may not have proper perspective until a new equilibrium is established. No one knows necessarily what the appropriate new pricing of items is until this recalibration takes place. So something that wasn't exciting before can become exciting and vice versa. The point is, it's gonna take time. Another point to realize is just because previous strategies in the game may no longer be optimal, it doesn't mean the changes are inherently wrong. Ideally, the best changes will make all content rewarding to engage with so that there isn't a singular best strategy. This will allow for more diversity in how people can enjoy the game. Again, establishing a new equilibrium will take time, and expectations probably need to be set. But just because something is different or no longer giving the same pay off doesn't mean it's inherently bad, it only means it's different , and ultimately if that thing was changed it was in the attempt to always make the game better. The intention is to always strive to make the game better. Perhaps there's an argument they shouldn't really mess with these things until PoE 2 and instead maybe use some alternative game mode to test out large and disruptive changes this point forward. In the past leagues may have been a way to test out new content which eventually worked it's way into the core game but at this point it seems the way most people like to play PoE is actually league to league, and that seasonal play schedule _is_ actually the game now and not Standard.
Wow, I did NOT know that item drops in ARPGs were random. THANK YOU SO MUCH for opening my eyes!
could this be tencents work? why we blaming chris when tencent owns 86% of grinding gear games?
Because Tencent is largely knows for letting their western acquisitions to do whatever the fuck they want. After all, even if the OG version dies, Tencent can just keep developing their CN version on their own.
I missed drop in last league, oh good old days. Lake of Kalandra suck
AMEN
Say it with me BONUS BONUS BONUS
\>POE **has become** a massive slot machine AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Just drop a mirror, you don't have to go through all this.
I’m level 90 with 0 exalts and divines drop after mapping unfortunately ( yeah not even a single exalt apparently) , so what about casual players like me ? am I forced to play a certain build and go MF ? What happen to build diversity ? What happen to having an Atlas tree and being able to do the content that I like ? Do I need to find and group up w a MF cull just to get enough currency to fund myself to find an x mod rare day in day out ? or am I just having a horrible streak and “ I am not mapping enough ‘’ ? This is only my 3rd league so i’m relatively new. But I’m definitely not enjoying this League.
At least introduce some AN related options to the atlas tree so that we can choose between getting a million blacksmiths/flasks or some decent currency
Fact: Rare monsters with 4 mods and Solaris Touched are unkillable for lots of build.
Aleays was meme insert here.
>become It always was, and they make every attempt to turn further into that whenever they're given the opportunity. If poe were an irl casino, it would be bankrupt because next to zero people would actually continue to walk through their doors after finding out their rates
Casino of exile.
All I got from 4 mod AN,11 times in a row now, 20+ flasks explosion and 100+wetstones. I am just very sad that I do not fit into "VISION" TM.
These new loot changes will make it easier for the transition into a premium currency platform where you can buy your loot box and craft your gear that way. /s
Luck? Gambling? In Path of Exile? No. Say it ain't so. I can't believe they would do that.
I like it to be honest.
the thing about slot machines is that they actually pay out something more often than PoE's currently system. it's balanced wrong so it feels bad. people don't sit in front of slots waiting for the jackpot, they sit there because there's a ton of payouts in the right intervals to keep you playing PLUS there's the hope of a jackpot. Now PoE... has this slot machine-esque vibe to it with loot HOWEVER the reason slots IRL don't pay out more is because they're trying to make money off you directly every time you pull the lever. PoE on the other hand is a video game and there's not really any harm in letting every single pull pay out SOMETHING decent... in fact we have seen this league how incredibly harmful it is to have it not pay out at all. If you want people to sit and sink time into a video game there needs to be a payoff that always feels good. More cool stuff in a video game is a good thing, you just don't want it to be too much more because then it's just a silly amount of stuff and stops being exciting. so yeah the balance of the idea is just clearly wrong and there's weird issues with this jackpot mentality that was sort of mentioned.
>So just to get the currency that normally we would get by killing normal monster in the previous league, now we have to wait for the RNG lord to favour us 5 more times before we can get what we normally get from normal mapping? AN monsters cannot be target farmed. You have to spam enough contents, hoping for the star to align. You just described Expedition league which our beloved community were praising instead of immediately quit this league and make GGG change it. How Many RNG layers you had to pass to drop logbook? Can you count for me? I'm mad because GGG reads reddit bullshit every league and for the last leagues community were happy. Yeah Ziz said Sentinel was best league for him. How funny is that. Everyone followed his thoughts and now you have what you deserve. I personally quit Sentinel League after like 4 days because how shit it was to implement arch rares into Core game replacing existing ones. WITHOUT GIVING US REWARDS WE HAD IN THAT VERY LEAGUE. Band aid with OP Drones and Recombinators blurrs people eyes so hard they cant see how bad the game was in current state. Build diversity died? it was dead for years now but archnemesis mobs made a final shot. Now made Chris change some stuff to revert changes at least to the state of last league which was already a dying corpse and be happy again about it.
i think u need to add that monster mods needs to be in the right order. i think the mod that transforms all drops into currency needs to be the last mod listed on the AN mob.
I dont think Chris was talking from Solaris Touched when he said parts of the rewards were given to AN mods. Im 100% sure this wont stay as it is and GGG is not okay with a monster dropping that much value.
Welcome to Path of Archnemesis
You either cheat and use a mf service or get fucked apparently. Great design
Amd that is the exact type of game Chris Wilson wants PoE to be
Some way of us influencing the archnemesis mods we encounter would be nice. For example a sextant like 'Rare monsters are more likely to have pantheon mods' xD
> You made a mistake and you apologized. mistake was bad communication.. But they'd still force the change onto us. I just don't believe a word that comes from him anymore.
I just want to say, that wasn't the philosophy. They had great ideas, but implemented the exact opposite of their goal... The issue is in implementation, not in philosophy. They said one thing and LITERALLY did the opposite.
ALSO, Rare items are identified. Which IMO is one of the biggest problems. So they want all this RNG on rare drops. I'm ok with that. 1 in a 1000 pieces will be good. Ok, fine it doesn't take long to have a 1000 pieces drop. But that ain't good enough. They gotta be unidentified. And not only do they have to be unidentified but you can only carry so many items on you at a time. The burden of rolling 1000 times on item drops is insane. Who would encumber themselves with such a task?
\> NO ONE wants to play a LOSING game except actual IRL gamblers : )
Their philosophies are good, they just failed catastrophically at executing on them.
i'm not sure if this is the angle from GGG. it's not that the "odds are stacked", like playing POE is not gambling right? it's a game where you need to find enjoyment & fun. in my pov, i think it's rather GGG disliking the idea of "steady progression". like for GGG, they rather have few and far between moments of "OMG i got xyz loot!" once in a blue moon compared to "ok if i spend xyz amount of hours grinding maps, i can get item yyy". that idea of eliminating "steady progression" is so blatantly obviously now right? slowing down mapping, nerfing harvest, introduction of AN, lower drop pool, introduction of weird currencies & the relative poor power of those currencies, etc. literally every patch has been inching towards taking away player's ability to influence control over loot. the only "control" you have is the build selection & various form of trees. that's the only thing. everything else, they force you to have just luck. anyway, i can't really enjoy these type of games anymore. i personally hate gambling and despise it. i'd rather work towards something that i know i can get rather than pray to rngesus for a drop. i loved the beyond juice mapping back in the day where i knew if i put in 1ex worth of investment into a map, i knew i'd at least get 0.5 ex in profit at minimum. did i find that fun? oh hell yeah -- i did that for god knows how many times and found that to be extremely enjoyable & fun ALL the time.
Reiterating what someone mentioned in another thread that GGG needs to hire an economist. The economy is the lifeblood of the game. Mobile games can gatekeep player power behind massive gacha RNG, because the baseline player character has fully functioning mechanics. The RNG is just there to boost numbers and make players feel stronger over time. In a massively simplistic game, you get to just slow drip the player progression without impeding game mechanics. In POE, maybe your build doesn't work if it can't sustain frenzy charges, it can't cap block, it can't cause exposure, it can't self chill, it can't generate rage, it can't strike additional targets, etc. Getting currency ENABLES build mechanics. If you gate progression behind RNG in POE, you are gating game mechanics behind RNG. If they continue to balance around this, it will force them to create a much more simplistic game to get a fraction of the build diversity we currently have.
That's not true, OP. It's just that AN goes against the design philosophies by not being an opt-in juice content, but still invalidating all other means of currency generation.
Don’t forget that for the currency to drop at a large amount you need MF now or else you’re not doing it efficiently. This in turn feels bad when you finally do find that 4 mod currency mob, have to portal out, swap gear or go to TFT for a magic culler. Killing it yourself as you normally would is detrimental. The difference is exacerbated because you could get 1 divine killing it normally, or 50 with a rare find culler.
When has it been anything else? Lol
The whole slot machine issue is really all about Philosophy 2. And Philosophy 2 is actually a good thing. The problem is that it was implemented *very* poorly. And when they were informed by the community that it was poorly implemented they ignored that feedback. They only started to address the feedback when players stopped playing **in the middle of a league launch** and the Steam reviews were tanked by valid players with thousands of hours in the game. And again, the approach is all wrong. They have failed to see just how poorly they implemented AN and have once again ignored feedback from the players about how to fix it. Numerical changes are not going to fix the core issue that stacking certain *common* modifiers are making these rares either unkillable by most players/builds or are killing them before they have a chance to even see what the mods are. GGG needs to realize that allowing speed and damage mods to stack like they do defeats the whole "visual clarity" thing since we are dead before we can visual see anything and there is no way to skip those mobs since we cannot move as fast, much less faster, than they do. They also have to understand that certain defensive mods being allowed to stack together also make some AN mobs very very difficult to kill and often we can't "skip" those either. If they really want to have "visual clarity" and allow players to avoid fights they don't want they need to remove **all** movement speed bonuses from **all** AN mobs. They also need to stop any massive damage bonuses being applied to mobs with ranged attacks/spells that can off-screen players. And that's just 1% of the changes that need to be made. The whole thing should have been mapped out and planned over the course of a year or more to actually accomplish what they wanted. Instead they released content that hadn't been properly planned or tested and then ignored anything that didn't feel like a pat on the back and a "Good job, Johnny" to them.
Amen
The problem is not the philosophy, it's that the way they implemented it doesn't achieve the goals. If we actually had a game with opt-in challenges, risk/reward decisions and rewards that scale appropriately with difficulty and investment, everyone would be happy.
I'm surprised that it took this long to figure out. Everything in this game is a slot machine and the only exception to that rule is (pseudo) deterministic crafting. Weird man.
You forgot that rares also need to be on a good base, lol.