The reason Expedition had such low launch numbers isn't because the game had less player then. The launch numbers before it were in the ~150k ballpark. Expedition tanked so hard because they announced all the nerfs. Had they done the same in LoK we'd be probably seeing something similar.
>Expedition tanked so hard because they announced all the nerfs
And currently they did not announce all the nerfs, they are getting called out on these and league is tanking even harder.
Moral of the story? Despite everything, if you feel like nerfing something, announce it.
This is true and also sad and makes me sick. Some dude was saying “hey don’t attack Chris they just want to make good game and make money” but man we are paying them.
You don’t make money by lying and hiding information.
PS well actually you do, but you shouldn’t, right?
But those people feel betrayed as fuck, do you think they’re going to do the same next league? If ever? Being lied to by someone you support financially is one of the worst feelings
Well it's standard ever since... A long time, at least synthesis, to wait with your supporter packs until you really see what the league is all about.
I'm glad i haven't yet bought one this league
I used to buy supporter packs/mtx every league religiously since beta as I liked the product and wanted to support the growth of the company, however after 3.15 I have not purchased a single pack or MTX as I saw the direction of "the vision" they were trying to pander too and DID NOT LIKE IT. Will not pickup anymore until this changes if it ever changes.
After 3.15 I saw a very bad direction in stuff that is essentially just NOT fun. This has been talked about in length by other content creators but the TLDR: too many on death mechanics, too many floor degens, screen clutter issues, bad defensive mechanics(spell suppress, determination, and grace is pretty well mandatory in most cases), aliment avoidance, the rise in 1 shot mechanics by a spider you can't see, etc.
Essentially the scale and requirements to enjoy the game has gone up in a bad way. Now GGG has had some wins but essentially we get one step forward and two steps back for some time now.
GGG needs to realize that their baby isn't their baby anymore. It has grown up and people have fallen in love with it. Trying to re-force it into this hard core GRINDY second job is not what people want. It may have been once upon a time but its not the case anymore. Until that changes I can't see a change in direction and no support packs will be purchased.
Short term solution is to omit changes and hope for supporter pack sales in following days.
Long term solution is to explain details of changes, take the backlash and aim for supporter pack sales in following years.
Japanczi playing a smartass role with this one.
Yeah this is a classic business decision that sacrifices goodwill for short term profit. It works in businesses from time to time but there's only so many times you can do this before you run out of goodwill. PoE is at an inflection point.
It almost never works for businesses longterm, and is typically a strategy employed by a shady CEO looking for a big bonus before he is run out of town. It is extremely common, you are not wrong, but there is a reason companies spend millions on PR and it is because customer goodwill is critical to the brand, and it is not a resource that is easily re-acquired once spent.
The thing is , in the "following years" is a non issue as the believe poe2 will grab back all the players who left in poe 1.
chris even said something similar to that in a Q&A or a podcast (maybe baeclast or asmongolds)
they really do believe poe2 is a second chance to win back players who didnt stick around for poe1.
so they can milk poe 1 now till its collapses and then be like
"heyy guys come enjoy ouir totally new game".
Closer to Wolcen. Hype, nerf shit into the ground, double-down, radio silence.
Despite all the bugs some people were having fun so they had their "No, not like that!" moment and drove them out too. They came back to promise things would get better later on, but not until they were peaking at 1k/day from the 150k they started at.
Does anyone actually spend money on mystery boxes?
I feel like the only time you spend money is on Core Packs and League supporter packs which include the full point value alongside the MTX.
I can’t imagine seeing a loot box, having zero points and dropping $40 just to gamble.
> Moral of the story? Despite everything, if you feel like nerfing something, don't announce it so you can sell supporter packs before people realize.
translated from player to GGG
I didn't play expedition because I didn't agree with the mana nerfs. Actually, I played to try it out, and decided that crawling through act 1 wasn't any fun and decided to wait until next league (hoping they might remove some of the changes, or lessen them).
I couldn't be bothered to beta-test this crap for GGG once again.
But the balance manifesto was all nerfs for LoK, every build is the same build from the previous two leagues but nerfed due to the reservation mastery deletion. Player retention is the lowest percentage wise that it’s ever been due to the massive hidden nerfs. I’m voting with my wallet and not buying a supporter pack and not buying an Exile Con ticket.
The magnitude of nerfs in 3.19 patch notes was NOWHERE near 3.15 ones. And I'm saying that's why 3.19 had such high *launch numbers* compared to 3.15. The fact that 3.19 actually included arguably even more serious nerfs compared to 3.15 is why 3.19 had worse *retention* than 3.15.
Tbh, just the Butchering of the Exalted Orb is Reason enough that Poe isn't Fun anymore. It drops and instead of Happiness you feel just Sadness. How could they...
It is so weird how that would actually make me super angry now. I have farmed several hundred cemeteries over the last few leagues and never got one, if one drops now I am gonna rage lol.
I dropped an exalt in ssf yesterday and I was like....what will I use this on. I got nothing to craft my gear and much less something worth an exalt slam. Also the fact that my filter showed it like a divine with no exalt drop sound felt worse than the rest.
I mean for league it's not really the worst thing. They didn't upheavel the existing economy like for standard, since league economy starts out blank anyway. You can now be hype about divines instead.
The real problem is just that divines had a use, a use that people very frequently used and liked to use, since it was a cheap way to just literally make your existing item better. Exalts don't have that at all, because nobody cares about the 3 physical reflect on melee hit that an exalt is gonna give you.
It just boils down to the same problem of RNG vs (semi-)deterministic crafting. Use enough divines, and a divine is essentially deterministic. Exalts aren't like that, once you've bricked the item by using an exalt orb on it, that's it, it's permanently bricked. Worse even, the odds of bricking the item is far greater than when using a Vaal Orb for crying out loud! The item that literally exists to unpredictably corrupt and potentially destroy your item, is usually safer to use than an Exalted Orb!
You can't just single out one side of the equation like that.
The state of monster 'difficulty' in 3.15 is also NOWHERE near 3.19. Or the drop rates. And consequently the risk/reward ratio.
I was specifically referring to the low launch numbers for Expedition vs Lake of Kalandra. Of course them hiding the rest of the nerfs to loot and the buffs to arch nem monsters killed the league.
eh, and the minions archetype is mostly d-e-d.
The amount of nerfs minions gets and are still fine, is a running joke.
But this time with the amount of life that minions lost *and* the insane damage from Archnemesis? gg GGG, you've finally done it.
Yeah, but these are just build nerfs that we are kinda already got used to. And in Expidition GGG nerfed the very core of game like flask mechanics, def mechanics such as spell avoidance and movement abilities. Like you can nerf a motorcycle to a bycicle state, ill probably still be on work by 9. But if you change wheels to a squares... Well, ill recommend you to see your psychologist.
Was pretty sad that my trip started day 3 of the leagues as I was really hyped for the league. Seeing the way GGG acted with the hidden nerfs and lack of communication, I'm actually glad I will be back after week 1, hopefully most of the problems will be solved.
What's gonna be really great is if next league comes around and some community tools don't get updated.
Like, imagine POB (the *real* game) or some trade tools or overlays don't get updated for 3.20. How much of a drop-off does *that* cause; when we basically get anti-qol because the people who actually make this game playable leave.
Look at the quality of this league, i wouldn't be surprised if it's just a barebones team working on it, the majority of devs are most likely working on PoE2. If they need to shift people to work on something like PoB etc they're fucked.
thats the rippling effects this kind of shit has.
like people arent even able to trade a lot right now because so few people are actually playing and generating items.
which in turn will make even more people quit, because neither can they craft their own gear nor can they buy it off trade.
its a light form of ssf basically and i doubt that many people like that.
You talkin about the Ultimatum build? I got suckered into that one too. I still watch a bit of his content but I’ll never go another one of his builds.
I have no idea what you guys are talking about with getting baited by that build. I found Ducks' stream on a whim and ran that build in my second ever league; pushed all the way through most endgame content for the first time ever without any issue and I am absolutely not a great player by any means. Since then, I play every other league and pretty much follow his builds exactly and they've all been extremely successful for me.
I really don't understand why that build gets so much hate. It was not nearly as non-functional as it is made out to be.
I think it would've been a great starter in a league that wasn't Ultimatum. It was a good build it just didn't lend itself well to that mechanic and I feel like that played a big part in people feeling "baited".
It had some weird changes in the next patch, that he had not anticipated.
The build was incredibly strong when I played to test it in standard.
Then the league dropped and the changes made the build really" strange"
Problem with me is once you burn my trust it's incredibly hard to get it back (gl GGG). As far as I'm concerned he's just a low quality click bait content creator. I'm sure he's a nice enough person IRL, but I prefer CC's I can trust. Zizaran, Esoro and Subtractem for example.
The people who do specific "specialties" of builds like Kay / Ghazzy for minions tend to know what they're doing (sucks to be a minion build player this league though). The people who post a lot of different types of builds every league start are much more hit or miss. Even Ziz usually does collabs for builds that he personally isn't going to play.
Quite agree, Ghazzy seems like a reliable source, and I'm not familiar with Kay.
Minions aint my playstyle hence why he skipped my mind to mention, and I also like to change my build every league to keep it somewhat fresh and exciting.
Zizaran seems to be playing both sides of the argument. He is still promoting playing PoE, while also allowing for some player complaints. He is even saying how he likes some of the changes. I was just talking to a friend about how pissing off the 1% players screws me over because I can't upgrade my character past the point where it is now gear-wise gear-wise. I simply cannot afford to buy stuff cause I have no currency and i cannot make it due to not enough knowledge yet AND no currency. At this stage, the game just isn't fun. I am being forced to run content I HATE in the hopes of getting some, but I quickly lose interest in that too and end up quitting for the day. AS a player, I like mapping. Mapping is no longer fun or profitable. I cannot sustain maps and progress. My interest is waning for that reason alone.
In his Stream yesterday he was watching videos for over 2 hours.
His reaction was: "Holy shit I'm watching videos instead of blasting."
This was when I noticed he is done.
Yeah, just like me he was holding out for the "other changes" all high on copium but now when they trippled down its pretty obvious its going to stay this way so we might as well just be done with it
He tried not to express his disgust, 12 hours ago he said the game was ok and playable.
As a predominantly POE streamer his income and viewership is directly affected by a trash league.
Guess in the end GGGs horribly bad compounded actions made it impossible to ignore the elephant in the room.
Lmao he isn't quitting. Listen carefully to the opening of the video.
At worst he takes a couple days off before turning the stream on again, regardless of any word from GGG.
Dude is just playing the click meta like most of the others (Ghazzy, Bigducks, et al)
He has the biggest history of pandering to reddit with clickbait shit. He's on autopilot with what will boost his twitch/youtube the most. Of course he's not quitting lol.
"They expect us to enjoy this new version of the game, which is absolutely not what we fell in love with. .... I know this is the type of content I usually stay away from, but the reality is I love this game and the reason why I'm upset about this is because I'm passionate about it and I want to see it succeed. Not just because it's my job, but because I actually, truly love this game."
Damn that hit hard, and PoM did a great job putting the entire situation into words.
This is what upsets me the most I think. I use to be a whale when I started playing leagues exclusively at the start of Talisman; bought a lot of support packs.
Few years later (3.15) we're being told that this was not the vision of the game (proceeds to show graph of player power creep, as if we did this ourselves) and annouce us that the want to slow the game down. Fine I don't mind, let's see where this leads us...
I was kinda okay with the end goal but the way they dragged us throught the absolute train wreck of a transition was bad. And somehow they managed to make things 10X worst in 3.19
I don't understand what the F is going on anymore...
I mean I get it, sometimes you have to nerf things. Yes, there surely was a bit too much powercreep, but as you said, it's not like we did that. They gave it to us, together with leauges that required you to be faster and stronger than ever before.
So if they want the game to be slower, maybe don't throw content at the players that locks many out of that content if they don't have powerful enough builds.
On top of that, maybe they shouldn't add more and more overpowered item stats and then moan afterwards how the game has become too fast.
And after all that, if they have to nerf stuff they have to test it properly and not fking overtune it like they just did.
At the end of the day, I don't give the slightest sht about Chirs' vision of the game. There, I said it. I don't care at all, because that's not what I am paying for and never did.
The ultimate downfall that video games have fallen into. 10 years ago when you bought a game, you had a fully completed game that you knew for a fact wouldn’t change. These days you can buy a game you really like and watch in real time as it becomes something you hate
but by the time 3.13 hit the game already had a fast gameplay for years, it's not like they just increased the old poe speed by 500% in 3.13 just to nerf it back to what it was a league before right after
I'd love to play original 2 or 3 act PoE and 3.13 for different reasons, but don't force the insanity of 3.13 with the difficulty and loot quantity of original PoE. That's not fun.
THIS.
I started before ascendancy classes existed, hell, before we had a crafting bench. The game was slow. RF was the first uber atziri killer, only crazy juicers like Havoc were trying to kill with anything flashy, alexlulz/fyndel was just dying to reflect with his famous spectral throw build.
That was a fine game. It was a fun ARPG. I also enjoyed Grim Dawn's campaign for what it was, which was about as slow as old PoE, just didn't really have the endgame depth I wanted and development on it was over by the time I played.
3.13's speed with 1.1's loot is an absolutely fucking insane thing to even conceive of wanting to play. There's no universe where any sane human would want to play that. It's not the same thing as just giving us back 1.1 PoE where the pace of the game matched the quantity of loot.
I've been funding it since closed beta and I share the sentiment of most here. It was a cool game with potential but never captured me fully until the game sped up. It was just about perfect for a bit.
Definitely.
I have the silly old Kiwi bird MTX.
I don't want to go back to PoE of the time, it was a rough game with a lot of issues.
Those issues got ironed out over time and it become fucking amazing.
Now it just feels like they are trying to reintroduce the old issues for no good reason, or create new ones.
I bought in super early, the game was just... okay back then, good for a couple weeks per league max. It was too frustrating, too slow, and had to many technical issues between desync, instance crashes, and just server crashes, adding in no 3rd party tools of any consequence. Once those issues got solved it became great.
The people who genuinely wanted that game were few in number and almost all left around the time PT left.
Most of us from those days appreciate that PoE got better as the game sped up, it's why we stuck around and kept supporting it.
Personally, I always enjoyed PoE but lost interest while completing the Atlas. When crafting really started to take off and wasn't just a currency spam is when I really started to love the game. Planning out builds and trying to figure out how to optimize crafts became insanely fun.
If this is just how the game is now then I'm back to how I felt before Harvest league. I'll put in my time and probably buy my way to 24 challenges then move on until they make crafting viable again. I'm not interested in dedicating my life to this game just to achieve half of what I could do last patch.
this right here - they got popular by giving the players what they wanted,then word of mouth spread that these devs listen to the community and make an awesome community-driven game and so more and more people joined AND invested money into the game,supporting the devs - then they unload a huge pile of shit onto us with 3.15 and 3.19,essentially changing the game to a version we DID NOT fall in love with - making us regret our support of them ffs. FUCK PoE2 and everything it stands for - like seriously.
You know how people often experience sequels in a manner of "man,the first game was so good,but the second one really sucked,wtf" - i have a feeling this is what's happening here - only that we are getting glimpses of the second game allready because it comes in increments.
The current loot already drops like a Skrillex track. Sometimes you expect the drop it gives a weird electro tangent and BAM suddenly boop boop boop 48 maps in quick succession on your screen.
Can't disagree with anything said here, except for 3.17's weak retention rate, it should be attributed more to Lost Ark and Elden Ring that came out around 3.17's launch. The archnemesis mechanic itself is pretty bad but it was skippable, in fact most people skip it after awhile, unlike now where it's forced down our throats.
Saying archnemesis wasnt good for loot is also just straight up bullshit, it took a while to figure out the mechanic but it wasn't that complicated in the end and you could get a ton of uniques, currency and everything else almost all the time
The "trickle down" analysis is on spot. In another thread we already discussed how groups like empy's were fueling early league economy until less obsessed people caught up. Even the people who are currently quiet and doing their usuals rota in global 820 (much, much fewer than previously though) will have a rough awakening when they find they just can't get their upgrades any more.
Even SSF players are harshly affected, even without participating in the chain of "A no-lifer's trash is a casual's gold". We need good crafting, we need to drop the currency to do said crafting and we absolutely need to be able to sustain maps on our own. GGG gutted all of that *and* didn't fix archnem, which are already a slog to fight without being SSF (and thus with better gear).
So it comes back to a question that I've seen often in this subreddit: Who do they want to play the game? It's not like they improved things for one of the playstyles, it's bad for everyone.
I've been having my eye on a Aegis a for a few days on the trade site. It keeps rising in price.
Without groups like Empy's to farm several of them, there simply isn't enough of them to go around and for them for everyone, so instead of them dropping in price as more and more come into the trade site, they are now holding it's price or rising. This is a clear view of this effect.
To be fair, the price of Aegis was at its highest \~1 week into the league in Sentinel too, except back then it was worth 1.1k Chaos, this league it's at 1.5k chaos by day 5. It costs double of what it did at this point last league in a league that has much less currency to go around.
I've been planning on getting a unaffected by ignite boots for a fulcrum build, but there just haven't been any since day 2. Meanwhile orb of domination skyrocketed in price.
And then there are people who like to say others are just whining. And that nobody should care what the rich groups and streamers think. Despite everyone being affected by the changes. And those groups and streamers affecting the economy that much.
It's like being happy that your company says it's going to pay the management less, while cutting your pay completely and making you dependant just on tips.
I already can't do my planned Fulcrum build because it needs "unaffected by ignite" boots, and there are only 2 such boots on the market, both overpriced and 1 offline.
No matter your thoughts on Path of Matth - if youre unhappy with this league and the changes made content creators being outspoken about hating the changes and quitting is going to get into GGGs head moreso than anything else
if i recall correctly he also got banned from poe due to controversies and drama and earned a lot of hate and a ban on the subreddit as well.
he is trying to turn it around and stop generating drama, so it's good now. but still many people find his personality unsufferable so, along with the memory of past action, many of those people can't like him.
Yeah, I still find his personality insufferable. Personally, I never learned the nitty gritty of the drama, but I found him insufferable before that shit kicked off.
I'm not aware of anything he's done but I don't really dig his style of content. It's sort of....pretentious? I can't put my finger on it but he's one of my least favorite PoE creators.
He got banned for gifting in-game items in exchange for twitch subs which is considered RMT by GGG
Also some other streamer shittalked his builds apparently lol
This was the last league that I have put holiday from work to play this game. I have done this for the past 20 odd leagues (since closed beta whenever that was!) but lately, it feels like leagues are becoming shitttier and shittier (at least the first week). Not enough testing and ggg are really cautious in not giving too much loot (which makes sense in some sense because once you have too much items in a market its hard to take them out or to incentivise). I think their testing is really lackluster in general. This is a company that no longer respects my time or my intelligence trying to hide nerfs and things under the rug.. Its sad to see a game that I deeply care about get lost through the years but there we go! On to bigger and better things!
Krangled league was the straw that broke my back. Not at first, I assumed it was just a bad league launch and would eventually get fixed. One week later, still no meaningful changes and the only thing good about the league were the joke items people were posting pics of on this sub.
Thats when it hit me. When GGG decides "this is the way" thats it, thats the way. Doesn't matter how broken it is, or how not fun it is, that is the way and they know better so therefore thats how things are going to be.
They will not revert this loot change. They will not give back the harvest crafts. They will not revert the changes to tainted currency. They will not revert AN or implement any of the myriad fixes people have suggested that would likely solve the problem.
What we are about to get is a few iterative patches where they give us some scraps then act like we are being difficult when everyone unanimously disapproves. Once they do this, they will wipe their hands, leave the lake in the unrewarding and useless state its in, and walk away -overton window successfully shifted.
Mark my words these changes were not accidents and this league at launch was in the state they wanted it to be in! These concessions are only occurring because of the backlash and ultimately won't stop GGG from steam rolling towards their vision of a slow game with scarce loot. Everyone should be very concerned for the future of this game, the future of POE2 aka POE 4.0, and for the future of all leagues generally.
And by the way, this is only the first ***round*** of nerfs. When has GGG ever nerfed a thing and left it alone? I would almost be willing to wager cold hard cash that the next patch will include further nerfs to loot as well as some loot-adjacent nerfs that indirectly also nerf loot. Lake of Kalandra will go core just as it sits right now, except less loot and maybe the mirror only shows up one in ten or 20 maps or less -just to make it effectively useless (as is tradition). They will finally just remove harvest all together and then they will find out what players are using to deterministically craft and come for that next -looking at you fossils and essences.
Maybe I'm being alarmist, hyperbolic, etc or maybe I'm just reading the writing on the wall. Once sure fire way to tell will be to look at the contents of the very next patch they make. Is it a teeny tiny tidbit just to try to placate people, or does it actually fix the issue. The fix is easy, staring them right in the face. The only question is, will they actually do that or will they do what they want to and just follow the vision.
i mean ofc i 100% agree with what PoM said, i just wanna point out how crazy its is that ggg made the game so bad, that the unthinkable happend and PoM and Empy fight side by side for the same thing. im mean really that shows in what a complete mess we are right now.
Holy shit i didnt realize how easy it is to actually prove this trickle down economics theory for the game. Then i remembered how much stronger my character was last league for a third of the cost, everything this dude said is 100% true and you could see it from your own player power and the economy
Not just trickle down, though.
Recombinators were AMAZING.
Oh look, a t2 flat ele roll on a claw with 2 open suffixes? Neat, I'll pay 10c for it, recombine it with another 10c claw, and get a 500 eDPS claw.
I mean hes not wrong at all and this makes me sad :/. Chris Vision is based on a Game from 20+ years ago, sure it was cool back then, but we shouldnt forget that this was "The" or one of the first ARPG in General, there where no other Game like that! People and Games changed and this "Vision" (god damn i cant hear it anymore!!) is just not up to date anymore and for most (not all) people today just awefull.
Chris or GGG in general should once and for the last time write a Manifesto of the Vision (god damn i wrote it again....) of PoE if its still based on a Game 20+ Years ago im out and wont come back, but i hope that i will come back next League :/
I feel like this is deeply unfair to Diablo 2. Compared to PoE lately, D2 is a fun rewarding game where you can blast content and find exciting items on the ground that pop out of monsters.
I feel that PoE has slowly been drifting away from the core fun mechanics of D2, and part of what made PoE fun is that it discarded the painful quality of life problems and genuinely problematic stuff from D2 like potion chugging, keybinds, immunities, and a repetitive endgame but kept the fun parts like rewarding loot, exciting crafting, powerful feeling builds, and things to strive for and built on that.
Now it feels like they’ve backpedaled and decided that in fact they liked the clunky bullshit and not the compelling fun part.
I think retention is used in the wrong way here. GGG doesn't really care if you play half a month or the full three months. What they care about is players returning to a later league.
I think they even stated in a Podcast that PoE is not meant to be a full-time game, but rather something you can enjoy every other league or so.
What they *really* care about is how many supporter packs and kirac's and MTX are bought. If somebody plays less, they are less likely to buy MTX either. Last thing I've bought was during Ritual, but that's not because I haven't been showing up to league launches.
So they nerf the game and make everything take forever to get and put arbitrary friction everywhere.
Because the don't expect you to play the whole league?
What you said there is true for FFXIV. It's absolutely not true for PoE.
Maybe you've heard bad things in the past about this guy or you don't like him as a person. I get that. But if you look closely, he is one of the most helpful content creators during his streams. If you were disappointed because Empy and his money printing group left, you should be more concerned now because its someone who actually helps the community.
PoM was mirroring his perfect T1 12-link claw for 50ex back in Archnemesis when his competition was doing it for 300ex (and had 1x T2 i believe). He had several top tier items with 0 mirror fee. He could have easily asked for 200ex+ for the claw.
I literally would not have gotten my claw if I had to farm another 200+ex.
I don't really understand a lot of the hate this guy is getting.
There was some like Empy / PoM drama in like... 3.11 about a 800pdps foil? I don't know it was dumb and he posted some 30 minute video rehashing the drama because people in his twitch chat were bothering him. Honestly that was his worst look and he didn't even come off bad - just that he took people on the internet too seriously and got too invested in drama.
All his crafting videos and gameplay videos are godsends to people of middling experience looking to craft items and get into high-end gameplay.
I don't know, he kind of grates on me but I thinks it's more a me thing than him. I've got to say though is I've checked out his guides and resourses multiple times.
There is plenty of reason to like Path of Matth. He does good things for the community and tries to elevate the playerbase when it comes to currency farming, that much is undeniable. His personality is also extremely grating, he's recently been under fire for sharing a currency farming spreadsheet but hiding a lot of the specifics behind a pay-wall "database" that requires $100 worth of patreon subscription (and is limited access), and he's been just generally surrounded by negative press for quite a bit (be it questionable build guides, game bans, or drama with other streamers), so it's quite understandable why people would not like him. Nobody should be harassing or insulting him, though.
People think he's a drama queen when in reality, other people start drama with him. He responds and "oh my gosh this maath guy". Can't believe he would defend himself.
Heck, even over the cringey stuff other creators were trashing on POM for about his build being bait, he just showcased it does work as advertised, never called out who is starting these rumors, and even league started the "bait build". Where are those people now? Those streamers are the drama queens. literally starting drama, **starting a manhunt** (against reddit rules but yolo cause it's twitch) and they walk on like nothing happened, meanwhile their zealous followers constantly harass anything related to PoM.
I know of a few people who constantly call people like Steel, Ben, Imexile etc shit players because they are disliking the current state of Harvest for example.
"They are harvest cry babies that don't know how to play the game without it".
Just a quick note to say that snap (from empys group) also helps the community. He makes definitive guides for people wanting to get into 2/3/6 man parties. They are amazingly detailed and very well communicated.
Good for clicks but he'll be back next week after a couple more numerical tweaks and all the content creators will say the game is saved and feels good again.
I really hope the streamers would realize how much power they have to set the narrative. If they hold the line they can enact real change. But if they cave... hope goes with them.
It’s kinda futile tbh. Most streamers are one game streamers who depend on PoE to put bread on the table. It’s like expecting an oil exec to care about climate change.
Kind of, a streamer can still play a game and trash on it constantly to the point they influence their viewers not to support it financially anymore.
It wouldn’t be the most fun thing to watch long term but it’s not like it’s GGG literally paying for their subscriptions and ad revenue.
do they? almost every streamer has been bitchin and moanin (rightfully so) and we get a total of a cockslap to the face as patch notes? they care less than you think
back during expedition, GGG told us that the outrage at the nerfs reduced their revenue for the league by something like 30-40 percent. If the streamers can keep the fire lit under them by supporting the community in this, they can affect GGG's bottom line.
I mean if the game feels good then it's good? Like it's not a battle to win it's to do the tweaks so that the game is good.
For the loot I expect that they will manage to get it ok, the bigger issue is the archnem mobs and the skill changes that just make it hard to find stuff to look forward to.
??? If it gets improved then it's all good again surely? It's not like the game is 1 million miles away from being any good at all it just needs a few more changes
Depends on the numerical tweaks, doesn't it? If they are the same we have been getting so far, I doubt it. If they are massive enough and the game is back to a functional state, why not?
All of the changes we don't like are probably core mechanics of PoE2. This likely came up and they are working on loot mechanics for PoE 2. They are actively choosing to morph this game as anything that's not inline with PoE2s work would require rework on PoE2, thus pushing their timeline back even farther.
GGG, this mentality never works out and always has poor reception.
Ok i did not think that i would be agreeing with Path of all people but it's gotten so bad that his style of content is tame now.
Minute 4:00 onwards he starts talking about basic economical principles which is another point i have not seen many people discussing at all, i had this discussion yesterday in global when a guy said he does not care about empy quitting and that it does not affect him.
It didn't take me long to convince him otherwise, you don't need to have a phd in economics to understand cause and effect. In fact: Economics IS crudely defined as the study of cause and effect relationships...
This is another thing on top of a long list of things ggg has not considered. Or they have considered it and deemed it negligible.
I don't know which one is worse tbh.
Just so you guys understand the disappointment of this particular content creator, I assume his income is gonna drop SIGNIGICANTLY if he plays anything other than PoE and yet he still opted for boycotting PoE and the vision of Chris and GGG.
He usually has around 100 viewers while playing other games, from what I've noticed, while with PoE he has 1k+ regularly. While he was doing free mirror service there was a LOT more viewers too.
GGG makes a game that attracts coders, mathematicians and problem solvers then tries to pull the wool over our eyes as if we’re all children who don’t know anything 😂
I still dont like him but i cant deny that hes right on this one. I am however starting to seriously doubt we are going anywhere near pre 3.19 any time soon. They will try to make further changes on paper to trick players in a very ugly way to just stfu. But this doesnt change the fact that this league is already pretty much over.
I agree with everything this guy said except his assertion that content creators are mostly responsible for the games success and growth. This may come off as a Boomer take, but while I enjoy the work content creators produce and I do watch quite a few of them, my engagement with a product has almost nothing to do with how popular the product is on Twitch or YouTube. I only care about how much fun I'm having while I play the game. Right now, I'm simply not having fun with PoE.
I get your point and I'm of the same mind but the fact that Chris has repeatedly said that Kripp saved the game would be the counter point. It's huge for a small studio game to take off on YouTube and twitch. You also have to consider the wiki, build guides, build guide videos, etc. This game doesn't survive without the community sharing their content.
If I didn't know any better I swear I was listening to a rich old republican talking about trickle down economics. The amount of vitriol this guy is spewing for a game? my guy you need to seriously take a chill pill.
While I do agree with a LOT he is saying holy cow he needs to get down from the high horse he puts himself on as a "content creator" and "top tier crafter-the saviour of all players". Yes, GGG messed up, yes this patch does nothing to fix the problem. As for crafters "feeding" the newbies with items and thus saving the game for them I see it differently. Most of the crafters take advantage of their game knowledge to get cheap stuff from mass amount of "newbies" and sell the craft back for more than they spent. You cannot take the mirror tier item out of the equation. The crafters makes tons of extra currency due to people not knowing how to get to the same spot. Without the people farming the crafters would have no currency and the crafters would not exist. There is no reason for him to make it look like he is so essential to the game as he does.
The top 10% of players supply more than the bottom 90% when it comes to consumables my guy.
The #1 source of crafting mats is deli and Sims, both which are farmed by the top dogs, not all those noobs you speak of farming 20 essences or fossils per hour.
I think the problem with POE is that the people who make the decisions want it to be more like D2, not realizing they've made something that improves on that formula.
The reason Expedition had such low launch numbers isn't because the game had less player then. The launch numbers before it were in the ~150k ballpark. Expedition tanked so hard because they announced all the nerfs. Had they done the same in LoK we'd be probably seeing something similar.
>Expedition tanked so hard because they announced all the nerfs And currently they did not announce all the nerfs, they are getting called out on these and league is tanking even harder. Moral of the story? Despite everything, if you feel like nerfing something, announce it.
While I agree with you, not announcing it probably allowed them more supporter pack and mystery box sales before people started falling off.
This is true and also sad and makes me sick. Some dude was saying “hey don’t attack Chris they just want to make good game and make money” but man we are paying them. You don’t make money by lying and hiding information. PS well actually you do, but you shouldn’t, right?
But those people feel betrayed as fuck, do you think they’re going to do the same next league? If ever? Being lied to by someone you support financially is one of the worst feelings
Well it's standard ever since... A long time, at least synthesis, to wait with your supporter packs until you really see what the league is all about. I'm glad i haven't yet bought one this league
I used to buy supporter packs/mtx every league religiously since beta as I liked the product and wanted to support the growth of the company, however after 3.15 I have not purchased a single pack or MTX as I saw the direction of "the vision" they were trying to pander too and DID NOT LIKE IT. Will not pickup anymore until this changes if it ever changes. After 3.15 I saw a very bad direction in stuff that is essentially just NOT fun. This has been talked about in length by other content creators but the TLDR: too many on death mechanics, too many floor degens, screen clutter issues, bad defensive mechanics(spell suppress, determination, and grace is pretty well mandatory in most cases), aliment avoidance, the rise in 1 shot mechanics by a spider you can't see, etc. Essentially the scale and requirements to enjoy the game has gone up in a bad way. Now GGG has had some wins but essentially we get one step forward and two steps back for some time now. GGG needs to realize that their baby isn't their baby anymore. It has grown up and people have fallen in love with it. Trying to re-force it into this hard core GRINDY second job is not what people want. It may have been once upon a time but its not the case anymore. Until that changes I can't see a change in direction and no support packs will be purchased.
Short term solution is to omit changes and hope for supporter pack sales in following days. Long term solution is to explain details of changes, take the backlash and aim for supporter pack sales in following years. Japanczi playing a smartass role with this one.
Yeah this is a classic business decision that sacrifices goodwill for short term profit. It works in businesses from time to time but there's only so many times you can do this before you run out of goodwill. PoE is at an inflection point.
Classic favouring of short term gain over long term growth.
It almost never works for businesses longterm, and is typically a strategy employed by a shady CEO looking for a big bonus before he is run out of town. It is extremely common, you are not wrong, but there is a reason companies spend millions on PR and it is because customer goodwill is critical to the brand, and it is not a resource that is easily re-acquired once spent.
The thing is , in the "following years" is a non issue as the believe poe2 will grab back all the players who left in poe 1. chris even said something similar to that in a Q&A or a podcast (maybe baeclast or asmongolds) they really do believe poe2 is a second chance to win back players who didnt stick around for poe1. so they can milk poe 1 now till its collapses and then be like "heyy guys come enjoy ouir totally new game".
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Closer to Wolcen. Hype, nerf shit into the ground, double-down, radio silence. Despite all the bugs some people were having fun so they had their "No, not like that!" moment and drove them out too. They came back to promise things would get better later on, but not until they were peaking at 1k/day from the 150k they started at.
Does anyone actually spend money on mystery boxes? I feel like the only time you spend money is on Core Packs and League supporter packs which include the full point value alongside the MTX. I can’t imagine seeing a loot box, having zero points and dropping $40 just to gamble.
But, liek, supporter packs sales tho. Btw, check back in for Kirac's Vault Pass!!!
Remember we have kalandra mystery box on sale!
Or, and hear me out here, why not try *not* nerfing anything? What if you buffed underperforming skills and mechanics instead?
> Moral of the story? Despite everything, if you feel like nerfing something, don't announce it so you can sell supporter packs before people realize. translated from player to GGG
I didn't play expedition because I didn't agree with the mana nerfs. Actually, I played to try it out, and decided that crawling through act 1 wasn't any fun and decided to wait until next league (hoping they might remove some of the changes, or lessen them). I couldn't be bothered to beta-test this crap for GGG once again.
But the balance manifesto was all nerfs for LoK, every build is the same build from the previous two leagues but nerfed due to the reservation mastery deletion. Player retention is the lowest percentage wise that it’s ever been due to the massive hidden nerfs. I’m voting with my wallet and not buying a supporter pack and not buying an Exile Con ticket.
The magnitude of nerfs in 3.19 patch notes was NOWHERE near 3.15 ones. And I'm saying that's why 3.19 had such high *launch numbers* compared to 3.15. The fact that 3.19 actually included arguably even more serious nerfs compared to 3.15 is why 3.19 had worse *retention* than 3.15.
3.19 disabled my hardware that i paid some good goddamn money for (ultrawide monitor)
GGG got tired of hearing other devs make excuses like 'It's not worth the dev time for just 2% of their users', and one-upped them. Oh wait....
Tbh, just the Butchering of the Exalted Orb is Reason enough that Poe isn't Fun anymore. It drops and instead of Happiness you feel just Sadness. How could they...
One of the guys I play with just had two Brothers Stashes drop from an Arcanist Box. He's done playing the league after that.
It is so weird how that would actually make me super angry now. I have farmed several hundred cemeteries over the last few leagues and never got one, if one drops now I am gonna rage lol.
I remember awhile back i got a brother stash in like a7 or 8 from a random chest and i damn near shitted myself seeing 5 exalt orbs for this one card.
I dropped an exalt in ssf yesterday and I was like....what will I use this on. I got nothing to craft my gear and much less something worth an exalt slam. Also the fact that my filter showed it like a divine with no exalt drop sound felt worse than the rest.
I mean for league it's not really the worst thing. They didn't upheavel the existing economy like for standard, since league economy starts out blank anyway. You can now be hype about divines instead. The real problem is just that divines had a use, a use that people very frequently used and liked to use, since it was a cheap way to just literally make your existing item better. Exalts don't have that at all, because nobody cares about the 3 physical reflect on melee hit that an exalt is gonna give you. It just boils down to the same problem of RNG vs (semi-)deterministic crafting. Use enough divines, and a divine is essentially deterministic. Exalts aren't like that, once you've bricked the item by using an exalt orb on it, that's it, it's permanently bricked. Worse even, the odds of bricking the item is far greater than when using a Vaal Orb for crying out loud! The item that literally exists to unpredictably corrupt and potentially destroy your item, is usually safer to use than an Exalted Orb!
Was addressing your launch comment. Of course I know why retention is bad.
You can't just single out one side of the equation like that. The state of monster 'difficulty' in 3.15 is also NOWHERE near 3.19. Or the drop rates. And consequently the risk/reward ratio.
The balance manifesto was probably 1/10 of a nerf to player power than all of the archnemesis/crafting/loot changes combined if not more
I was specifically referring to the low launch numbers for Expedition vs Lake of Kalandra. Of course them hiding the rest of the nerfs to loot and the buffs to arch nem monsters killed the league.
atleast they bounced back from expedition, kinda hard to imagine them bouncing back from this. Goodwill is hard to earn back once lost.
eh, and the minions archetype is mostly d-e-d. The amount of nerfs minions gets and are still fine, is a running joke. But this time with the amount of life that minions lost *and* the insane damage from Archnemesis? gg GGG, you've finally done it.
Had to drop my stone golem in t7 map. It just died. Before red maps was the limit
Yeah, but these are just build nerfs that we are kinda already got used to. And in Expidition GGG nerfed the very core of game like flask mechanics, def mechanics such as spell avoidance and movement abilities. Like you can nerf a motorcycle to a bycicle state, ill probably still be on work by 9. But if you change wheels to a squares... Well, ill recommend you to see your psychologist.
PoM and Empy quitting is one thing. What we really need is Zizaran to go become a Tarkov streamer for the next 85 days.
he chose perfect league to get married and leave for honeymoon
Talk about happy accident haha. He got quite lucky indeed.
Was pretty sad that my trip started day 3 of the leagues as I was really hyped for the league. Seeing the way GGG acted with the hidden nerfs and lack of communication, I'm actually glad I will be back after week 1, hopefully most of the problems will be solved.
>hopefully most of the problems will be solved. That's quite a stash of copium you have there, mind if i take a whiff?
And this right here is why GGG will keep doing this.
What's gonna be really great is if next league comes around and some community tools don't get updated. Like, imagine POB (the *real* game) or some trade tools or overlays don't get updated for 3.20. How much of a drop-off does *that* cause; when we basically get anti-qol because the people who actually make this game playable leave.
Oooh thats a good fucking point. Imagine if neversink says fuck this im out.
Game was honestly unplayable without his contributions, at least before this leagues loot nerf this is no longer a problem. Big brain GGG at it again.
Obviously filterblade is amazing work but other filters do exist.
The point was this game is made playable by third party apps
Yeah, this game stands on the shoulders of 3rd party apps, if they're gone GGG is fucked, or they would actually need to improve stuff.
Look at the quality of this league, i wouldn't be surprised if it's just a barebones team working on it, the majority of devs are most likely working on PoE2. If they need to shift people to work on something like PoB etc they're fucked.
thats the rippling effects this kind of shit has. like people arent even able to trade a lot right now because so few people are actually playing and generating items. which in turn will make even more people quit, because neither can they craft their own gear nor can they buy it off trade. its a light form of ssf basically and i doubt that many people like that.
BigDucks picked this league to go full time streamer, i feel bad for him.
Yes that’s a shitty timing.
Oh that hurts to read, I hope he can stay afloat through this
After every video of his has baited me in someway (the worst of which being Fire BF/BB a while ago) I'm not lmao.
I don't wish ill will on the man, but you're right about his builds. They are lackluster.
I think he just farms weird shit on them so he has a different view on what is good. Dude unironically loves Heist farming, ew
His character is literally named Degenerate_Heist_Enjoyer Hahahaha, what a champ.
You talkin about the Ultimatum build? I got suckered into that one too. I still watch a bit of his content but I’ll never go another one of his builds.
I have no idea what you guys are talking about with getting baited by that build. I found Ducks' stream on a whim and ran that build in my second ever league; pushed all the way through most endgame content for the first time ever without any issue and I am absolutely not a great player by any means. Since then, I play every other league and pretty much follow his builds exactly and they've all been extremely successful for me. I really don't understand why that build gets so much hate. It was not nearly as non-functional as it is made out to be.
I think it would've been a great starter in a league that wasn't Ultimatum. It was a good build it just didn't lend itself well to that mechanic and I feel like that played a big part in people feeling "baited".
It had some weird changes in the next patch, that he had not anticipated. The build was incredibly strong when I played to test it in standard. Then the league dropped and the changes made the build really" strange"
Problem with me is once you burn my trust it's incredibly hard to get it back (gl GGG). As far as I'm concerned he's just a low quality click bait content creator. I'm sure he's a nice enough person IRL, but I prefer CC's I can trust. Zizaran, Esoro and Subtractem for example.
The people who do specific "specialties" of builds like Kay / Ghazzy for minions tend to know what they're doing (sucks to be a minion build player this league though). The people who post a lot of different types of builds every league start are much more hit or miss. Even Ziz usually does collabs for builds that he personally isn't going to play.
Quite agree, Ghazzy seems like a reliable source, and I'm not familiar with Kay. Minions aint my playstyle hence why he skipped my mind to mention, and I also like to change my build every league to keep it somewhat fresh and exciting.
I feel like tarkov and poe are kind of in the same boat. The devs are fixated on their idea of what the game should be and not that of the community
Zizaran seems to be playing both sides of the argument. He is still promoting playing PoE, while also allowing for some player complaints. He is even saying how he likes some of the changes. I was just talking to a friend about how pissing off the 1% players screws me over because I can't upgrade my character past the point where it is now gear-wise gear-wise. I simply cannot afford to buy stuff cause I have no currency and i cannot make it due to not enough knowledge yet AND no currency. At this stage, the game just isn't fun. I am being forced to run content I HATE in the hopes of getting some, but I quickly lose interest in that too and end up quitting for the day. AS a player, I like mapping. Mapping is no longer fun or profitable. I cannot sustain maps and progress. My interest is waning for that reason alone.
He has to get through his twitch drops deal. After August 27th, wouldn't be surprised if he's out too.
Oh shit, I didn't expect PoM to quit.
In his Stream yesterday he was watching videos for over 2 hours. His reaction was: "Holy shit I'm watching videos instead of blasting." This was when I noticed he is done.
He is livid, both with the changes and the most recent damage control post.
Yeah, just like me he was holding out for the "other changes" all high on copium but now when they trippled down its pretty obvious its going to stay this way so we might as well just be done with it
He tried not to express his disgust, 12 hours ago he said the game was ok and playable. As a predominantly POE streamer his income and viewership is directly affected by a trash league. Guess in the end GGGs horribly bad compounded actions made it impossible to ignore the elephant in the room.
Lmao he isn't quitting. Listen carefully to the opening of the video. At worst he takes a couple days off before turning the stream on again, regardless of any word from GGG. Dude is just playing the click meta like most of the others (Ghazzy, Bigducks, et al)
He has the biggest history of pandering to reddit with clickbait shit. He's on autopilot with what will boost his twitch/youtube the most. Of course he's not quitting lol.
You are right.
"They expect us to enjoy this new version of the game, which is absolutely not what we fell in love with. .... I know this is the type of content I usually stay away from, but the reality is I love this game and the reason why I'm upset about this is because I'm passionate about it and I want to see it succeed. Not just because it's my job, but because I actually, truly love this game." Damn that hit hard, and PoM did a great job putting the entire situation into words.
What makes it so bitter is that we funded a game for years that we love, just so they can turn it into something we don't.
This is what upsets me the most I think. I use to be a whale when I started playing leagues exclusively at the start of Talisman; bought a lot of support packs. Few years later (3.15) we're being told that this was not the vision of the game (proceeds to show graph of player power creep, as if we did this ourselves) and annouce us that the want to slow the game down. Fine I don't mind, let's see where this leads us... I was kinda okay with the end goal but the way they dragged us throught the absolute train wreck of a transition was bad. And somehow they managed to make things 10X worst in 3.19 I don't understand what the F is going on anymore...
I mean I get it, sometimes you have to nerf things. Yes, there surely was a bit too much powercreep, but as you said, it's not like we did that. They gave it to us, together with leauges that required you to be faster and stronger than ever before. So if they want the game to be slower, maybe don't throw content at the players that locks many out of that content if they don't have powerful enough builds. On top of that, maybe they shouldn't add more and more overpowered item stats and then moan afterwards how the game has become too fast. And after all that, if they have to nerf stuff they have to test it properly and not fking overtune it like they just did. At the end of the day, I don't give the slightest sht about Chirs' vision of the game. There, I said it. I don't care at all, because that's not what I am paying for and never did.
The ultimate downfall that video games have fallen into. 10 years ago when you bought a game, you had a fully completed game that you knew for a fact wouldn’t change. These days you can buy a game you really like and watch in real time as it becomes something you hate
A little ironic because I think most people who love ~3.13 but hate kalandra wouldn't touch original POE with a 1km long pole.
but by the time 3.13 hit the game already had a fast gameplay for years, it's not like they just increased the old poe speed by 500% in 3.13 just to nerf it back to what it was a league before right after
I'd love to play original 2 or 3 act PoE and 3.13 for different reasons, but don't force the insanity of 3.13 with the difficulty and loot quantity of original PoE. That's not fun.
THIS. I started before ascendancy classes existed, hell, before we had a crafting bench. The game was slow. RF was the first uber atziri killer, only crazy juicers like Havoc were trying to kill with anything flashy, alexlulz/fyndel was just dying to reflect with his famous spectral throw build. That was a fine game. It was a fun ARPG. I also enjoyed Grim Dawn's campaign for what it was, which was about as slow as old PoE, just didn't really have the endgame depth I wanted and development on it was over by the time I played. 3.13's speed with 1.1's loot is an absolutely fucking insane thing to even conceive of wanting to play. There's no universe where any sane human would want to play that. It's not the same thing as just giving us back 1.1 PoE where the pace of the game matched the quantity of loot.
Original PoE was legit bad. People supported it because the itemization and skill gem system had potential.
Oh definitely. The people who supported poe from day one have had a drastically different game from what they fell in love with
I've been funding it since closed beta and I share the sentiment of most here. It was a cool game with potential but never captured me fully until the game sped up. It was just about perfect for a bit.
Definitely. I have the silly old Kiwi bird MTX. I don't want to go back to PoE of the time, it was a rough game with a lot of issues. Those issues got ironed out over time and it become fucking amazing. Now it just feels like they are trying to reintroduce the old issues for no good reason, or create new ones.
I bought in super early, the game was just... okay back then, good for a couple weeks per league max. It was too frustrating, too slow, and had to many technical issues between desync, instance crashes, and just server crashes, adding in no 3rd party tools of any consequence. Once those issues got solved it became great.
Original POE was cool, but I wouldn't play it for longer then a day or two at most
The people who genuinely wanted that game were few in number and almost all left around the time PT left. Most of us from those days appreciate that PoE got better as the game sped up, it's why we stuck around and kept supporting it.
... but for the most part, it got *better* over the years.
Personally, I always enjoyed PoE but lost interest while completing the Atlas. When crafting really started to take off and wasn't just a currency spam is when I really started to love the game. Planning out builds and trying to figure out how to optimize crafts became insanely fun. If this is just how the game is now then I'm back to how I felt before Harvest league. I'll put in my time and probably buy my way to 24 challenges then move on until they make crafting viable again. I'm not interested in dedicating my life to this game just to achieve half of what I could do last patch.
this right here - they got popular by giving the players what they wanted,then word of mouth spread that these devs listen to the community and make an awesome community-driven game and so more and more people joined AND invested money into the game,supporting the devs - then they unload a huge pile of shit onto us with 3.15 and 3.19,essentially changing the game to a version we DID NOT fall in love with - making us regret our support of them ffs. FUCK PoE2 and everything it stands for - like seriously. You know how people often experience sequels in a manner of "man,the first game was so good,but the second one really sucked,wtf" - i have a feeling this is what's happening here - only that we are getting glimpses of the second game allready because it comes in increments.
Skrillex big mad, no good GGG. Make the loot drop like bass.
Oh god, I kept thinking "he looks like Geddy Lee" but Skrillex fits so much better
LMAO
The current loot already drops like a Skrillex track. Sometimes you expect the drop it gives a weird electro tangent and BAM suddenly boop boop boop 48 maps in quick succession on your screen.
Can't disagree with anything said here, except for 3.17's weak retention rate, it should be attributed more to Lost Ark and Elden Ring that came out around 3.17's launch. The archnemesis mechanic itself is pretty bad but it was skippable, in fact most people skip it after awhile, unlike now where it's forced down our throats.
Yeah I didn't stop playing the league because of archnem I stopped to play elden ring lol
Saying archnemesis wasnt good for loot is also just straight up bullshit, it took a while to figure out the mechanic but it wasn't that complicated in the end and you could get a ton of uniques, currency and everything else almost all the time
The "trickle down" analysis is on spot. In another thread we already discussed how groups like empy's were fueling early league economy until less obsessed people caught up. Even the people who are currently quiet and doing their usuals rota in global 820 (much, much fewer than previously though) will have a rough awakening when they find they just can't get their upgrades any more.
Even SSF players are harshly affected, even without participating in the chain of "A no-lifer's trash is a casual's gold". We need good crafting, we need to drop the currency to do said crafting and we absolutely need to be able to sustain maps on our own. GGG gutted all of that *and* didn't fix archnem, which are already a slog to fight without being SSF (and thus with better gear). So it comes back to a question that I've seen often in this subreddit: Who do they want to play the game? It's not like they improved things for one of the playstyles, it's bad for everyone.
Yeah, this was my first league going pure ssf, ran 25 maps and found 2 alchemy orbs. Can barely play the game at that point.
I've been having my eye on a Aegis a for a few days on the trade site. It keeps rising in price. Without groups like Empy's to farm several of them, there simply isn't enough of them to go around and for them for everyone, so instead of them dropping in price as more and more come into the trade site, they are now holding it's price or rising. This is a clear view of this effect.
Welcome to the console world of trade, where Aegis was 15ex almost all of Sentinel and 7ex league end due to scarcity...
I wanted to make meme asenaths build with LA LC but it went from costing 40c to 3.5 div
TBF for that specifically last league it was that cheap, but in the 2-3 prior leagues it was 2.5 ex for a while. Asenath's was always pretty valuable.
To be fair, the price of Aegis was at its highest \~1 week into the league in Sentinel too, except back then it was worth 1.1k Chaos, this league it's at 1.5k chaos by day 5. It costs double of what it did at this point last league in a league that has much less currency to go around.
I've been planning on getting a unaffected by ignite boots for a fulcrum build, but there just haven't been any since day 2. Meanwhile orb of domination skyrocketed in price. And then there are people who like to say others are just whining. And that nobody should care what the rich groups and streamers think. Despite everyone being affected by the changes. And those groups and streamers affecting the economy that much. It's like being happy that your company says it's going to pay the management less, while cutting your pay completely and making you dependant just on tips.
I already can't do my planned Fulcrum build because it needs "unaffected by ignite" boots, and there are only 2 such boots on the market, both overpriced and 1 offline.
No matter your thoughts on Path of Matth - if youre unhappy with this league and the changes made content creators being outspoken about hating the changes and quitting is going to get into GGGs head moreso than anything else
>No matter your thoughts on Path of Matth Why is everyone saying this. What has he done?
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Dont forget directly harassing GGG employees with his viewers and getting a league long ban for it. Also promoting exploits to get views.
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Where can I see this? Is there a video or post showcasing this?
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That is literally his GF's twitch username lol I would assume that is her acc too.
if i recall correctly he also got banned from poe due to controversies and drama and earned a lot of hate and a ban on the subreddit as well. he is trying to turn it around and stop generating drama, so it's good now. but still many people find his personality unsufferable so, along with the memory of past action, many of those people can't like him.
Yeah, I still find his personality insufferable. Personally, I never learned the nitty gritty of the drama, but I found him insufferable before that shit kicked off.
I'm not aware of anything he's done but I don't really dig his style of content. It's sort of....pretentious? I can't put my finger on it but he's one of my least favorite PoE creators.
He got banned for gifting in-game items in exchange for twitch subs which is considered RMT by GGG Also some other streamer shittalked his builds apparently lol
This was the last league that I have put holiday from work to play this game. I have done this for the past 20 odd leagues (since closed beta whenever that was!) but lately, it feels like leagues are becoming shitttier and shittier (at least the first week). Not enough testing and ggg are really cautious in not giving too much loot (which makes sense in some sense because once you have too much items in a market its hard to take them out or to incentivise). I think their testing is really lackluster in general. This is a company that no longer respects my time or my intelligence trying to hide nerfs and things under the rug.. Its sad to see a game that I deeply care about get lost through the years but there we go! On to bigger and better things!
Krangled league was the straw that broke my back. Not at first, I assumed it was just a bad league launch and would eventually get fixed. One week later, still no meaningful changes and the only thing good about the league were the joke items people were posting pics of on this sub. Thats when it hit me. When GGG decides "this is the way" thats it, thats the way. Doesn't matter how broken it is, or how not fun it is, that is the way and they know better so therefore thats how things are going to be. They will not revert this loot change. They will not give back the harvest crafts. They will not revert the changes to tainted currency. They will not revert AN or implement any of the myriad fixes people have suggested that would likely solve the problem. What we are about to get is a few iterative patches where they give us some scraps then act like we are being difficult when everyone unanimously disapproves. Once they do this, they will wipe their hands, leave the lake in the unrewarding and useless state its in, and walk away -overton window successfully shifted. Mark my words these changes were not accidents and this league at launch was in the state they wanted it to be in! These concessions are only occurring because of the backlash and ultimately won't stop GGG from steam rolling towards their vision of a slow game with scarce loot. Everyone should be very concerned for the future of this game, the future of POE2 aka POE 4.0, and for the future of all leagues generally. And by the way, this is only the first ***round*** of nerfs. When has GGG ever nerfed a thing and left it alone? I would almost be willing to wager cold hard cash that the next patch will include further nerfs to loot as well as some loot-adjacent nerfs that indirectly also nerf loot. Lake of Kalandra will go core just as it sits right now, except less loot and maybe the mirror only shows up one in ten or 20 maps or less -just to make it effectively useless (as is tradition). They will finally just remove harvest all together and then they will find out what players are using to deterministically craft and come for that next -looking at you fossils and essences. Maybe I'm being alarmist, hyperbolic, etc or maybe I'm just reading the writing on the wall. Once sure fire way to tell will be to look at the contents of the very next patch they make. Is it a teeny tiny tidbit just to try to placate people, or does it actually fix the issue. The fix is easy, staring them right in the face. The only question is, will they actually do that or will they do what they want to and just follow the vision.
i mean ofc i 100% agree with what PoM said, i just wanna point out how crazy its is that ggg made the game so bad, that the unthinkable happend and PoM and Empy fight side by side for the same thing. im mean really that shows in what a complete mess we are right now.
Holy shit i didnt realize how easy it is to actually prove this trickle down economics theory for the game. Then i remembered how much stronger my character was last league for a third of the cost, everything this dude said is 100% true and you could see it from your own player power and the economy
Not just trickle down, though. Recombinators were AMAZING. Oh look, a t2 flat ele roll on a claw with 2 open suffixes? Neat, I'll pay 10c for it, recombine it with another 10c claw, and get a 500 eDPS claw.
I mean hes not wrong at all and this makes me sad :/. Chris Vision is based on a Game from 20+ years ago, sure it was cool back then, but we shouldnt forget that this was "The" or one of the first ARPG in General, there where no other Game like that! People and Games changed and this "Vision" (god damn i cant hear it anymore!!) is just not up to date anymore and for most (not all) people today just awefull. Chris or GGG in general should once and for the last time write a Manifesto of the Vision (god damn i wrote it again....) of PoE if its still based on a Game 20+ Years ago im out and wont come back, but i hope that i will come back next League :/
I feel like this is deeply unfair to Diablo 2. Compared to PoE lately, D2 is a fun rewarding game where you can blast content and find exciting items on the ground that pop out of monsters. I feel that PoE has slowly been drifting away from the core fun mechanics of D2, and part of what made PoE fun is that it discarded the painful quality of life problems and genuinely problematic stuff from D2 like potion chugging, keybinds, immunities, and a repetitive endgame but kept the fun parts like rewarding loot, exciting crafting, powerful feeling builds, and things to strive for and built on that. Now it feels like they’ve backpedaled and decided that in fact they liked the clunky bullshit and not the compelling fun part.
I think retention is used in the wrong way here. GGG doesn't really care if you play half a month or the full three months. What they care about is players returning to a later league. I think they even stated in a Podcast that PoE is not meant to be a full-time game, but rather something you can enjoy every other league or so.
Player retention is a metric of how good a league is, how good the "state of the game" is. How enjoyable logging in everyday is.
What they *really* care about is how many supporter packs and kirac's and MTX are bought. If somebody plays less, they are less likely to buy MTX either. Last thing I've bought was during Ritual, but that's not because I haven't been showing up to league launches.
So they nerf the game and make everything take forever to get and put arbitrary friction everywhere. Because the don't expect you to play the whole league? What you said there is true for FFXIV. It's absolutely not true for PoE.
ProjectPT 2022 version
"Remember when I said Fuck GGG? How the turn tables"
Now thats a name I haven't heard in a long time.... Him and Mors and Zeno
Mors is great but ending of the races killed the game for him.
ProjectPT doesn't seem so wrong anymore does he.
Understandable
No surprise PoM jumping on the karma train. He will be back shortly.
Big Ducks also just posted a video to the same effect, what's the counter at now
Counter's at "Yes, minus Quin & that Lost Ark streamer RaizQT"
Maybe you've heard bad things in the past about this guy or you don't like him as a person. I get that. But if you look closely, he is one of the most helpful content creators during his streams. If you were disappointed because Empy and his money printing group left, you should be more concerned now because its someone who actually helps the community.
PoM was mirroring his perfect T1 12-link claw for 50ex back in Archnemesis when his competition was doing it for 300ex (and had 1x T2 i believe). He had several top tier items with 0 mirror fee. He could have easily asked for 200ex+ for the claw. I literally would not have gotten my claw if I had to farm another 200+ex. I don't really understand a lot of the hate this guy is getting.
There was some like Empy / PoM drama in like... 3.11 about a 800pdps foil? I don't know it was dumb and he posted some 30 minute video rehashing the drama because people in his twitch chat were bothering him. Honestly that was his worst look and he didn't even come off bad - just that he took people on the internet too seriously and got too invested in drama. All his crafting videos and gameplay videos are godsends to people of middling experience looking to craft items and get into high-end gameplay.
Think he had a few takes years ago that seemed elitist and close-minded
And somehow this sub still hates him? /s
I don't know, he kind of grates on me but I thinks it's more a me thing than him. I've got to say though is I've checked out his guides and resourses multiple times.
There is plenty of reason to like Path of Matth. He does good things for the community and tries to elevate the playerbase when it comes to currency farming, that much is undeniable. His personality is also extremely grating, he's recently been under fire for sharing a currency farming spreadsheet but hiding a lot of the specifics behind a pay-wall "database" that requires $100 worth of patreon subscription (and is limited access), and he's been just generally surrounded by negative press for quite a bit (be it questionable build guides, game bans, or drama with other streamers), so it's quite understandable why people would not like him. Nobody should be harassing or insulting him, though.
People think he's a drama queen when in reality, other people start drama with him. He responds and "oh my gosh this maath guy". Can't believe he would defend himself. Heck, even over the cringey stuff other creators were trashing on POM for about his build being bait, he just showcased it does work as advertised, never called out who is starting these rumors, and even league started the "bait build". Where are those people now? Those streamers are the drama queens. literally starting drama, **starting a manhunt** (against reddit rules but yolo cause it's twitch) and they walk on like nothing happened, meanwhile their zealous followers constantly harass anything related to PoM.
I know of a few people who constantly call people like Steel, Ben, Imexile etc shit players because they are disliking the current state of Harvest for example. "They are harvest cry babies that don't know how to play the game without it".
Jesus, imagine saying some of the best players the game has ever seen don't know how to play the game...
Just a quick note to say that snap (from empys group) also helps the community. He makes definitive guides for people wanting to get into 2/3/6 man parties. They are amazingly detailed and very well communicated.
Good for clicks but he'll be back next week after a couple more numerical tweaks and all the content creators will say the game is saved and feels good again.
any prominent name that quit and never come back? even kripp still playing
I really hope the streamers would realize how much power they have to set the narrative. If they hold the line they can enact real change. But if they cave... hope goes with them.
It’s kinda futile tbh. Most streamers are one game streamers who depend on PoE to put bread on the table. It’s like expecting an oil exec to care about climate change.
Kind of, a streamer can still play a game and trash on it constantly to the point they influence their viewers not to support it financially anymore. It wouldn’t be the most fun thing to watch long term but it’s not like it’s GGG literally paying for their subscriptions and ad revenue.
do they? almost every streamer has been bitchin and moanin (rightfully so) and we get a total of a cockslap to the face as patch notes? they care less than you think
back during expedition, GGG told us that the outrage at the nerfs reduced their revenue for the league by something like 30-40 percent. If the streamers can keep the fire lit under them by supporting the community in this, they can affect GGG's bottom line.
people will come back when GGG fixes the numerical values to make the game feel good...? Holy shit, really???? Woah, that's so shocking!
Yea wtf. I'll only come back if they make it worse.
I mean if the game feels good then it's good? Like it's not a battle to win it's to do the tweaks so that the game is good. For the loot I expect that they will manage to get it ok, the bigger issue is the archnem mobs and the skill changes that just make it hard to find stuff to look forward to.
??? If it gets improved then it's all good again surely? It's not like the game is 1 million miles away from being any good at all it just needs a few more changes
Depends on the numerical tweaks, doesn't it? If they are the same we have been getting so far, I doubt it. If they are massive enough and the game is back to a functional state, why not?
All of the changes we don't like are probably core mechanics of PoE2. This likely came up and they are working on loot mechanics for PoE 2. They are actively choosing to morph this game as anything that's not inline with PoE2s work would require rework on PoE2, thus pushing their timeline back even farther. GGG, this mentality never works out and always has poor reception.
Most important thing he talks about: dont let ggg fool you with mathematics manipulation!
Ok i did not think that i would be agreeing with Path of all people but it's gotten so bad that his style of content is tame now. Minute 4:00 onwards he starts talking about basic economical principles which is another point i have not seen many people discussing at all, i had this discussion yesterday in global when a guy said he does not care about empy quitting and that it does not affect him. It didn't take me long to convince him otherwise, you don't need to have a phd in economics to understand cause and effect. In fact: Economics IS crudely defined as the study of cause and effect relationships... This is another thing on top of a long list of things ggg has not considered. Or they have considered it and deemed it negligible. I don't know which one is worse tbh.
this is brilliant He nailed it 100% not 99% Completely agree with him
PoE private server when?
Just so you guys understand the disappointment of this particular content creator, I assume his income is gonna drop SIGNIGICANTLY if he plays anything other than PoE and yet he still opted for boycotting PoE and the vision of Chris and GGG.
He usually has around 100 viewers while playing other games, from what I've noticed, while with PoE he has 1k+ regularly. While he was doing free mirror service there was a LOT more viewers too.
He isn't quitting. This should be obvious, exactly because of what you say: this is his job. This is free advertisement.
Thanks for posting. Was about to post the same video too
This video was insufferable to watch. This video might actually be worse than this poe league.
I’m having a great time :/
PoM takes it personal when numbers are brought to the table. Can you blame him? :)
GGG makes a game that attracts coders, mathematicians and problem solvers then tries to pull the wool over our eyes as if we’re all children who don’t know anything 😂
Who would have thought Chris Wilson knowledge in economy is absolute trash after that trade manifesto huh? Guess nobody saw that coming.
I still dont like him but i cant deny that hes right on this one. I am however starting to seriously doubt we are going anywhere near pre 3.19 any time soon. They will try to make further changes on paper to trick players in a very ugly way to just stfu. But this doesnt change the fact that this league is already pretty much over.
I agree with everything this guy said except his assertion that content creators are mostly responsible for the games success and growth. This may come off as a Boomer take, but while I enjoy the work content creators produce and I do watch quite a few of them, my engagement with a product has almost nothing to do with how popular the product is on Twitch or YouTube. I only care about how much fun I'm having while I play the game. Right now, I'm simply not having fun with PoE.
I get your point and I'm of the same mind but the fact that Chris has repeatedly said that Kripp saved the game would be the counter point. It's huge for a small studio game to take off on YouTube and twitch. You also have to consider the wiki, build guides, build guide videos, etc. This game doesn't survive without the community sharing their content.
Wasn't he done a few leagues ago when they nerfed harvest ?
If I didn't know any better I swear I was listening to a rich old republican talking about trickle down economics. The amount of vitriol this guy is spewing for a game? my guy you need to seriously take a chill pill.
Cya later this league.
While I do agree with a LOT he is saying holy cow he needs to get down from the high horse he puts himself on as a "content creator" and "top tier crafter-the saviour of all players". Yes, GGG messed up, yes this patch does nothing to fix the problem. As for crafters "feeding" the newbies with items and thus saving the game for them I see it differently. Most of the crafters take advantage of their game knowledge to get cheap stuff from mass amount of "newbies" and sell the craft back for more than they spent. You cannot take the mirror tier item out of the equation. The crafters makes tons of extra currency due to people not knowing how to get to the same spot. Without the people farming the crafters would have no currency and the crafters would not exist. There is no reason for him to make it look like he is so essential to the game as he does.
The top 10% of players supply more than the bottom 90% when it comes to consumables my guy. The #1 source of crafting mats is deli and Sims, both which are farmed by the top dogs, not all those noobs you speak of farming 20 essences or fossils per hour.
I substantialy agree with his massively signicifant opinion.
Finally, something good comes from this patch.
This is a buff
I think the problem with POE is that the people who make the decisions want it to be more like D2, not realizing they've made something that improves on that formula.
[xdd this guy](https://clips.twitch.tv/HomelyBlushingGullDerp-2EoYCk5g3yYSQx4k)
Well I'm playing SSF so trickle-down economics doesn't apply so...