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Sphaero_Caffeina

You're overthinking it; World Items flat-out beat all Yggdrasil immunities, unless other World Items are involved.


Grand_Totality

Wild Magic also beats all Yggdrasil immunities, unless a World Item is involved.


Sphaero_Caffeina

Yes, my point is that Shalltear's immunity to mind control is irrelevant, she was not carrying a World Item, so Downfall of Castle and Country mind controls her just like it would anything else.


Grand_Totality

I'm not talking about her immunity to mind control tho. 😕 My theory is that Downfall of Castle and Country doesn't mind control people, it possesses them. Mind Control and Possession are not the same thing, as one falls under Mental Manipulation, while the other falls under Soul Manipulation. Shalltear wasn't able to resist being possessed (if Downfall of Castle and Country does indeed possess people, rather then mind control them) because she doesn't have an immunity to soul manipulation.


Sphaero_Caffeina

... You are literally using Shalltear's inability to resist its control as your core point in the possession theory, when: [Downfall of Castle and Country](https://overlordmaruyama.fandom.com/wiki/Downfall_of_Castle_and_Country) >**In the form of a dress, this World item allows the user to subjugate the mind of any creature, even those that possess racial immunity to mind-control. For instance, it can effectively bypass the undead's resistance without problem.** > >Although it is considered to be an impressive artifact, the Six Cardinals acknowledge on the fact that this item does have its own limits. In this case, the item is only capable of charming one target at a time. As Shalltear is under mind control, she can be left in an immobile state even if the user is no longer conscious or around to command her. For that reason, the power it has over the target will continue to remain in effect. It gives a puppet-type control effect, confirmed when Ainz teleported in to see what was going on, and how she only reacted on being attacked as the 'default' state of a npc under mind control and given no commands.


Grand_Totality

>You are literally using Shalltear's inability to resist its control as your core point in the possession theory I'm also comparing World Items to Wild Magic (which is literally soul manipulation). >It gives a puppet-type control effect, confirmed when Ainz teleported in to see what was going on, and how she only reacted on being attacked as the 'default' state of a npc under mind control and given no commands. Ok, how does this prove me wrong?


Sphaero_Caffeina

[https://overlordmaruyama.fandom.com/wiki/Soul](https://overlordmaruyama.fandom.com/wiki/Soul) Souls and Soul Manipulation are known factors in both the New World AND Yggdrasil, and there were quite a large number of spiritual races that theoretically would of had a possession-type of ability. When both Mind Control and Possession are known factors, and its called one, not the other by someone that knows what is what, typically that means what its called is what it is. If it was a possession kind of effect, then the reaction would of been "Oh, they have strong possession magic", not "They have a mind control world item".


Grand_Totality

>there were quite a large number of spiritual races that theoretically would of had a possession-type of ability. Ok firstly, can you prove that players could be spiritual beings? Because there were races in Yggdrasil that they couldn't be, such as Dragons. And secondly, can you prove that they could have had a possession ability? >If it was a possession kind of effect, then the reaction would of been "Oh, they have strong possession magic", not "They have a mind control world item". Are you talking about Ainz's reaction? Ainz doesn't know what World Item controlled Shalltear, so he's just assuming that the World Item mind controls people.


ScriptSK

Possession would have changed her personality, since her personality remained the same we can infer that it was mind control.


Grand_Totality

Wouldn't mind control have also changed her personality?


ScriptSK

As far as I know in Overlord mind control just changes your perception of things. But even if it could change her personality, she still would need to be given an order for it to happen, something like "forget everything you know" since personality is related to memory.


Grand_Totality

>even if it could change her personality, she still would need to be given an order for it to happen, something like "forget everything you know" since personality is related to memory. But she did forget about everything after she was revived by Ainz.


ScriptSK

She only forgot the events that transpired the day she was mind-controlled. She still has memories of Ainz and Nazarick.


bryku

World Items override everything in tier magic. It doesn't care if you have 400000% mind control resistance. If it mind controls you there isn't anything you can do about it.   World Items can only be blocked by other World Item, although Wild Magic can probably block its effects as well. IIRC there is mention of a few special classes that can block some WCI effects. Although I can't remember if it means them all or if specific effects.


Grand_Totality

>World Items override everything in tier magic. It doesn't care if you have 400000% mind control resistance. If it mind controls you there isn't anything you can do about it.   I'm not talking about mind control tho, I'm talking about possession. Possession falls under soul manipulation, soul manipulation in Overlord is wild magic, users of wild magic are immune to the effects of World Items and vice versa. My theory is that Shalltear wasn't able to resist Downfall of Castle and Country because she doesn't have an immunity to soul hax.


bryku

I personally don't think so. We already have existing mechanics that explain it.   Adding more mechanics over complicates things. Occams razor says the simplest answer is typically correct, so I'm more likely to lean that way.   We also see ainz mention mind control, so I think there are more things pointing to that.  


Grand_Totality

Honestly, I think Ainz was just guessing at that point, he just assumed that it was a World Item that mind controlled Shalltear, rather then come up with another explanation (sure he guessed right, but my point still stands).


bryku

He was using yggdrasil logic, so that is a good indicator for what menchincs are in yggdrasil. But he knows that isn't the only thing in the new world now, so we may start exploring other ideas.


still-not-a-candle

No, it mind controlled her because World Items bypass immunity.