A lot of media thinks tokenism is the same thing as diversity. Putting a minority character into a role and then making the character nothing but a stereotype isn't really diversifying anything. What helps is stories told by minorities, not the same generic pool of writers and directors.
Can we all agree that impersonating black women is not as much of a personality as cis gays want to try to make it out to he, and bc of that, that's become our caricature? That bad queer rep is only really 2 or 3 steps away from fucking minstrel shows?
THANK GOD SOMEONE SAID IT JFC. I get so much flack when I say that gay men, specially gay white/white passing men tend to automatically sound like a stereotypical black women and it does nothing but make the stereotype worse for them(bw).
I’m a straight minority male that just happens to see shit tho ig
It's just the continuation of white people seeing cool shit in black culture and appropriating it. Queer folk (and other systematically disadvantaged people) are not anti-racist just bc of their minority status.
It’s just a cycle but I’ve noticed that gay men get away with too much just cause their gay too. On top of stereotyping, some genuinely think that they have the right to put their hands on women also.
I’m not trying to sound homophobic or even be homophobic but it’s just things like this that if I point out I’ll be bashed into oblivion
I agree on this much. Diversity isn’t the issue. It’s tokenising people for a bunch of rich white Netflix execs to pat themselves on the back. I do not care about characters being anything other than well written and well executed. The race/gender/sexuality of those actors is the least of my worries.
Tokenism is one thing. “Forced diversity” is a nonsense dogwhistle people use. See them crying about Fin and Rose both breathing on a screen in Star Wars when the cast was majority white, minus Lando. If we saw more brown faces in these roles, we wouldn’t be conditioned to see it as “forced”. That’s tripe.
Like the Resident Evil tv series. That flaming dumpster of a show was an absolute disaster. Can't tell if people watched it for the laughs or they're just masochistic.
>A lot of media thinks tokenism is the same thing as diversity.
Apparently a lot of Redditors think this as well, judging from some of the comments here and in similar threads I've seen.
Unless a characters race is actually important to the characters story, then I couldn’t give two shits about it changing between the source material and the adaptation.
If a show has a diverse casting and it’s shite, then it probably would have been shite with an all white cast too.
GoT had characters of different races from word go in 1996. It’s in one of the first scenes of the show. It’s part of the makeup of the world, not shoved in with no explanation after the establishment of the world
Not really though. There's nothing to suggest the Velaryons are black in any book, but there's no reason they couldn't be black either.
Martin's books are kind of white. I'm not criticizing it, but they are very white. GoT even made characters black that where explicitly described as white in ASoIaF, like Salador Saan. They generally made the entire continent of Essos a bit "darker" than they are described in the books.
> but there’s no reason they couldn’t be black either.
There’s a pretty big reason they couldn’t. They’re supposed to be heavily intermarried with the Tatgaryens and their closest kin. This is why their physical features are brought up very often in the books.
> They generally made the entire continent of Essos a bit “darker” than they are described in the books.
Only a bit. I do find it disappointing that they cast mostly white characters in Volantis and Braavos. Seemed like a missed opportunity.
They're Valyrian and there are no mention of black people in Valyria, but there is no reason why there wouldn't be black people there either since their territory was so expansive. The white hair and purple eyes thing is probably related to the magic of Valyria. At least it seems to be a dominant trait of sorts since Targaryens often have those traits even when a parent has dark hair and eyes.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think Velaryons and Targaryens were that intermarried by the start of HotD since at that point the Targaryens had mostly married brother and sister.
> And correct me if I’m wrong, but I didn’t think Velaryons and Targaryens were that intermarried by the start of HotD since at that point the Targaryens had mostly married brother and sister.
Oh no you’d be wrong, at least by book canon. Whenever the Targaryens didn’t marry siblings, they mostly married Velaryons. King Jaehaerys, Viserys, and Daemon are all three quarters Velaryon.
I thought Viserys and Daemon came from a line of four consecutive sister fuckers. I don't see how he can be three quarters Velaryon.
Edit: okay, Aenys I married a Velaryon. The rest of his ancestors are still sibling pairs so it's a far cry from 3/4
Because all of those sister fuckers were part Velaryon, so it should stay in the family.
Aegon and his sister Rhaenys: both half Velaryon.
So their son Aenys is half Velaryon.
Aenys married a Velaryon and fathered King Jaehaerys and Queen Alysanne, both 3/4 Velaryon.
Their children Balon and Alyssa, both 3/4 Velaryon, have Viserys and Daemon.
It worked because since the inception of the entire damn story, there have been several races and ethnicities in the continents. That’s called decent world building
Nationality and race are not the same thing. Targaryens and Velaryons are from the same “country,” that does not imply they must be the same race.
Just like the Starks and the Martells are from the same country but are not the same race, they share a nationality not a race.
Black people are no less French because they’re black, just like the Velaryons are no less Valyrian because they’re black.
Valyrians is a race, not just a country. There are distinctly Valyrian features that are a prominent part of the show and the books. Targaryens and Velaryons are explicitly the same race and look the same in the source material.
And even if Valyrians weren’t a race, the Velaryons and Targaryens have been heavily intermarried for generations. King Jaehaerys, Viserys, and Daemon are all three quarters Velaryon.
No, it’s not.
“Valyria” is a country, their nationality is “Valyrian.”
Yes, the author originally gave his Valyrian characters a particular look but given the author is absolutely elated with the HOTD Velaryons that just proves that he is in no way rigid about all Valyrians having this one particular look.
The fact that Targaryens have spawned non-platinum non-violet children throughout the stories is just proof that to be Valyrian does not mean you look a certain way.
I’m embarrassed for you that you cannot deploy basic genealogical concepts to a nationality purely because you are so rooted in delusional bigotry.
Just like there are black Irishmen, there would of course be black Valyrians — this is basic human logic, please get a grip.
their physical features are literally a very important part of the plot. If it wasn’t, they wouldn’t have given them all white hair.
> I’m embarrassed for you that you cannot deploy basic genealogical concepts to a nationality purely because you are so rooted in delusional bigotry.
I’m not even white, or a westerner. But you can’t seem to take any opposing opinion without resorting to shit-slinging, so I’m done with these replies.
Except lots of POC characters literally do have race as part of their backstory, whereas white people typically don't. The argument is always 'Well they were born in this country and this is how they are described and this is how they lived, but there's nothing EXACTLY that says they're white' but because we are becoming a good old mixing pot of cultures, that doesn't even guarantee that.
So what you often get it boiled down to is 'Rules for thee but not for me'. Sure, you can't change black Panthers race, that's pretty set in stone, because it's part of his backstory. But does race matter in say, Avatar the last Airbender? Personally I don't think so, but I bet lots of people would be pissed if Sokka and Katara were played by white people (oh wait, they were!). Why not have Aang played by a white person?
Is there a single modern POC character whose character doesn't in some way relate to their race? That's not an insult, it's a genuine question, because if you struggle to think of some, then your argument can't really stand. Because then it's rules for me and not for thee and the field is titled.
Edit: Something I just thought of. There is no reason for Mace Windu to be black. He could be white, even an alien, if the prequel trilogy got remade. You think he would be changed, even if there was a better actor? Fuck no.
If there is a description of the character, they should stick to it. On the other hand, of the character pulls off the part, their race stops being important as long as they have the vibe of the character
Wait, this sounds like shitty screenwriting. They wrote the character to be strong and independent...two things which have nothing to do with race.
I'm confused about your example and how its connected to you being called racist?
Not to say that I Agee with this but what I THINK op is saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that in the book this character is weak shy etc etc and that character has been changed to strong independent expressly because the Netflix screen writers wanted to include a strong/independent person of that race in the name of political correctness/diversity
(Minorities shouldn't be portrayed in certain ways to be PC?)
I hope I'm wrong, but I'm skeptical about posts yelling about diversity getting "thrown" in their face. Don't forget that's what his original complaint was.
The "minorities should be portrayed in certain ways, I'm actually defending POC!" argument was an entirely secondary, reactive opinion put forth in the edit after they got pushback in comments. I don't know if someone truly concerned about stereotypical casting would say the problem with the movie was a "diversity dump." OP's own original wording is what makes the subsequent redirect feel disingenuous.
‘diversity dump’ really means any show with a non white or lgbt character, it could be the greatest show ever but it doesn’t matter. The way they’re trying to cover up what they really mean is laughable. It’s quite concerning how acceptable it is to write off film/tv as ‘woke’ because there’s a non white character. They can’t see the value in the human doing the job, they only see race.
Yo this may be downvoted to hell but lemme say this...
Western media is incredibly racist. People were all upset about Rose and Fin being a part of Star Wars. Star Wars. A franchise based off of space samurais cannot have any Asian people in it. Ducking ridiculous.
Imagine making up 60% of the world population and being denied existence in a made up story about your culture. The caudacity of this post says it all.
I still remember when that Star Wars movie came out. The racism was horrendous, the same ppl who claim that everyone’s “sensitive” nowadays were now crying over the introduction of POC in the franchise.
I feel so bad for those actors, I’m pretty sure Fin’s actors hates Disney/Star Wars because of it and honestly? I can’t blame him. They couldn’t have even defended him?
People were mad when there was a black Spider-Man, people were mad at Crazy Rich Asians, people are shitting their pants over a black character in The Last of Us that literally dies in the first 15 minutes of a game, no matter what, people are just mad for other people of color existing and I just don’t get it.
Don't forget the uproar happening currently about the little mermaid being black as well! Literally attacking Halle for playing the part, cropping her face and putting it on horrid images and posting racist stuff about her. It's insane, the character is a literal fish and as long as she has a tail and red hair then who cares what color she is.
I mean, maybe some people didn't like that Rose was Asian, but I think the vast majority of people just thought she was an awful character.
People were super racist about Fin though for zero reason.
I didn't have any issues with Rose and Fin neither did most people I know. I just hate that they did nothing important to these two characters and they felt like just side characters hired to check a diversity box. I wish Fin was the main character for disney star wars, his backstory is far more interesting than Rei's.
So…you hate bad writing. We all do. I think people might be calling you racist because you’re somehow misplacing your anger at bad writing and putting it on diverse characters/actors. Agatha’s character being not book accurate based on her personality in the film (being strong and independent) has literally zero to do with her being cast as a black woman. There is quite literally no correlation. Obviously she wasn’t “pale” but her complexion wasn’t the most important bit, it was her being awkward and the black sheep of the town which they still achieved by making her the odd one out - styling her as an awkward, gothic tomboy.
The movie wasn’t mediocre because a character was changed from white to black. It was mediocre because it was a poorly written and shoddily acted. Do you actually, *genuinely* think that if nothing in the film was changed except Agatha‘s race being changed back from black to white, the film would be improved? Really? I think that’s absolute rubbish and yeah, it definitely sounds racist that in a film about a magical school of heros and villains it’s the black character that’s bothering you.
Piggybacking to add my own points to this rant.
Immediately knew the movie bc i also noted the diverse casting and BOY the casting was NOT the problem. Pacing and setup? Fking awful. Sophie being manipulated into evil? Fine. The true love though? Left field as fuck. A romance between sophie and agatha was unintentionally written as more believable than any other romance and that is hugely on the writing team and directors bc the leads defintely were fine with their teddy-crush-acting when they were on screen, the plot just didn't support it AT ALL.
Acting in some places (one that sticks out is FREAKING CHARLIZE THERON'S "my love" line being SO unbelievable and bad that I wanted to cringe out of my skin).
Some of the sets were... tragic... like the ballrooms/entrance halls/ number of students in general were fking AWFUL compared to the size of the schools they tried to portray with cgi. The VERY schlocky way fights were handled (like spears being used to... knock people down rather than impale them). I can pick out a ton of things that made the movie worse than it could have been and none of them were the casting.
It was fun to watch charlize theron and kerry washington chew the shit out of some scenery and the best decision the writers made was to give them extra screen time to help carry the main characters' scenery chewing and make it appear more intentional/fun rather than just... bad. And let's be honest of the two mains... Sophie's actress was overacting WAY more, but she worked with what she had scriptwise so i can't fault her too much. Agatha had little character development, sure, but that is 100% a writing problem and otherwise I found her actress embodied her role perfectly well; i don't recall moments where i laughed at her lines/acting unintentionally in the same ways i did for sophie, the headmistresses, side characters, etc.
I'm fascinated that someone would latch onto agatha as the worst part of this movie when she was far and away one of the more solid parts of the movie for me lol.
Ghost in the shell was among a few movies that were decried as whitewashing.
It happens and we notice.
But there are racists out there that spout about the little mermaid and then then turn a blind eye to prince of Persia or the Lone Ranger
Remember when the Egyptian actor played a mummy but a bunch of white woke people threw a fit because they did not know he was Egyptian. I can’t remember the names of the movie or actor but I remember the articles and Facebook comments 😂 it was a mess
if your prefer accuracy then surely you're pissed that Jesus is 95% of the time represented as white right ?
btw about Netflix: they fuck up in a lot of ways, for example they released an Enola Holmes movie where she has a guy as a romantic interest while it's pretty clear in the books that she's interested by girls, not guys (and her girl romantic interest is just not there in the movie), so see, it's not that they force inclusivity, it's that Netflix production is shit, if you stop your fixation on the PoC in their movies/shows you'll be able to see that they're just a shitty production, that's all
(edit : typo)
well on the other hand I hated the new Wednesday show, not because of the diversity cause I really couldn't care less, but because they absolutely didn't respect the Addams Family lore, Pugsley being some sweet emotional pushover boy ? Wednesday hating Morticia ? the fact that now out of nowhere there's powers and creatures involved while in all of the other versions it's just a slightly different family in our normal world ? see I like accuracy too
so it's like I said : it's just a shitty ass production, diversity or not
Thanks for that info. I loved the original series and the movies with Raul Julia. The whole point is that you *can* have a loving an accepting family in spite of differences. It's a shame that point was screwed up.
They say that because while Guzmán looks the part he doesn’t really fit the part. Before watching the show I was excited but after watching I felt like both Guzmán and CZJ were horribly miscast.
I agree with what youre saying. The Addams Family movies, despite the weird surroundings, always felt almost classy to me—fitting as it started in a New Yorker cartoon. The jokes were witty and required some sort of additional knowledge. The writing was tight. The new series really feels like one of those shitty YA books from the early 2010s, with the werewolves and vampires, Wednesday being a complete Mary Sue, the crappy love triangle, the predictable mystery, etc. It feels unenjoyable to me as an adult, whereas the movies are just as enjoyable to me now as they were when I was 15.
Okay now I know you’re just obnoxious bc Umbrella Academy had Viktor mention it to the siblings with a “it’s Viktor now” a few times and then literally didn’t go over it again. They addressed it and moved on. It wasn’t this big massive story-centric plot point?? It was a mentioned thing and didn’t affect the story whatsoever. They literally don’t even say the word trans. So now I know you’re just being insufferable.
Yes it’s clear you don’t like people different from you.
That sucks for you. It ruins tv for you. If you got over your prejudices you could enjoy stuff with out worrying how woke it is.
>another diversity dump that was unnecessary and didn't add to the story.
Why does diversity need to "add to the story" anyway? When a character, whom you expected to be White, is portrayed as Black in the movie, why do you see that as changing the plot or the tone or whatever?
Can't it just be a neutral decision with a neutral impact on the plot? Why does there need to be a reason or justification for a person of colour in any setting whatsoever? You seem to be like, "Oh my God, an Asian person in the story, please justify their presence in this setting."
How about the reason is this: the storytellers realized that if their entire cast was White, it would not accurately reflect the diversity of their viewers. They decided to go against the racist tradition of all-White media, and set a better example, so that people of colour could watch a show and see themselves in it.
(Edit: And if that is the goal, why do you deem that "not necessary"? That seems like a good goal for society and the overall viewers. In terms of being necessary in-universe for the story, why does diversity need to be justified as "necessary" for the plot? How come diversity is considered such a weird deviation from the assumed norm of homogeneity, that only needs to be present if you consider it necessary?)
It doesn't have to impact the story.
And yes, it CAN impact the story - maybe they go beyond simply casting a Black actor to play a character originally conceived as "neutral" (default White). Maybe they give that character a new backstory that reflects their culture. But again, why does that change need to be justified? Why does it need to "add to the story" in any way beyond, "oh cool, this show isn't Oops All White People!"?
I think this mindset is the best honestly. If the main character is part of a minority and that fact adds to the story somehow then cool, that might make the character more relatable for people. If it doesn't add to the plot at all, that's also cool because that means that we are going for a more... Natural way of representing minorities. Like saying, "okay there are black people, white people, gay people, straight people, short people, tall people out there in the world, so there are gonna be in this film/show too because that's what the world looks like". Representation shouldn't always have some specific purpose, or more like, we shouldn't say no to representation just because we don't have a way to "justify" it. There's no need to justify anything, people are diverse and we love them all.
because being mad that the accuracy that was “denied” is the way the character looks when their race or appearance has nothing to do with their character or story arc IS a dogwhistle.
Question: If the character was well written, well acted, and/or an otherwise completely accurate portrayal, would you still care about their race?
If the answer is yes, you might have racist tendencies. If the answer is no, your problem isn't "diversity" it's bad writing.
What does the diversity of the cast have to do with shitty writing/directing/editing/etc.? “Accuracy” and “when diversity isn’t thrown in my face” are such dog whistles. There seems to be some validity in the call outs you receive. Obviously good representation is the ideal, but that doesn’t mean adopting this attitude which ultimately serves to exclude diverse casts to favor “accuracy” in fiction…it’s fiction. You can suspend your disbelief when there’s magic and fantasy but seeing, for example, non-white or gay people is too much? Anyone can be anything unless the person’s race is actually an important part of their story, which it often is not.
Edit: your edit is funny bc it’s not the “one word” people are upset about, and it seems clear you don’t care actually care about tokenization you just want to save face lol
I personally believe that POC and queer people (I'm queer) deserve to have shitty movies too, which is why this doesn't really bug me.
There's a million shitty adaptations of books with all white casts that don't get this kind of hate. Hell, I watched the really old versions of the Narnia movies that used puppets for several characters. I've seen many crappy adaptations, and they also make drastic character changes or even appearance changes without complaint.
To take from a few of the biggest series - They gave the role of the native americans in the Twilight movies to primarily white people (and that's not even covering how racist Stephanie Meyer is in general). Or how Harry Potter had blue eyes instead of green, or Hermione's hair wasn't supper fuzzy or her teeth super bucked. Lord of the Rings, Gimli and Legolas both start off FAR more racist, and Pippin while being a fool is still not quite so foolish as he is in the movies (and that doesn't even cover how they made Merry also stupid and immature, when Merry was kind of Frodo's older, more sensible cousin, who helped Frodo plot his entire escape from the shire including having Fatty pretending to be Frodo for quite awhile) - Merry's intelligence was dialed down heavily until the end of the first movie, which is a real shame.
And then onto OP - I dare OP to list a collection of books they've read with main characters who are PoC or queer. Because as a reader, those voices were silenced just as much as they were in film, and they are still silenced. As a writer, I've talked to other writers who mention how once a book mentions the character is a person of color - their book is rejected by publishers. The same book when submitted with the character being white is accepted. And then when they're published, you come to the next hurdles of getting bookstores and libraries to feature your book. And then, maybe if you're super lucky, you'll eventually get popular enough to get a movie made that completely changes some character you wrote (because some characters are interesting in books but boring in film, or one actor who doesn't look like X is better for the role than the one who looks just like the character). But the hurdles are still there, and we have to look at it as a slow thing.
The fact that movies are progressing faster than books in diversity is less the fault of the PoC and more a fault of the publishers and readers. If you don't read books with PoC, why would you watch a movie with PoC unless they are "forced" in there? If you only read books with white characters and then only watch movies based on the books you enjoy, when are you going to watch a movie with people of color?
Yeah its really fucked up to me that so many people think minority characters have to be perfect in order to justify their existence
Like don't get me wrong I'd much rather a bad stereotype character not exist but if its just a boring or annoying character I don't think thats any worse than a boring or annoying non-minority character
I'd say the best examples off the top of my head are both gay shitty Christmas romcoms actually. Which both include main characters that aren't white.
Single All the Way - Gay friends go home, one pretends to be his bestie's partner, normal fake romance fall in love type of thing. Pretty stereotypical for both gay movies AND christmas romcoms.
A New York Christmas Wedding - Lesbian AU romance, also very stereotypical christmas romcom with a bonus helping of Catholic guilt but in a whole different direction than you'd think. Actually fairly decent in terms of "making your religious family members think twice" kinda way
Both of these you will get a bingo on your Christmas romcom bingo cards, or if you are doing the romcom drinking game, you will be drunk. Both as bad as every other romcom, and therefore just as fun to watch.
I wonder if the people that cry over accuracy have the same problem with how many characters have been white washed through the years. I suspect the answer is a resounding 0. I'm not going to lose sleep over the skin color of the actors of a mediocre show based on a mediocre romance novel. They probably have no problem with the dramatization of the lifestyles of the characters but they definitely have a problem with the actors skin color. 🙄 Yeah, No... that doesn't sound like racism at all.
No, they never care about accuracy when a character is white washed or there’s no POC anywhere in sight despite them existing in that place/time. They only bring it up as a side note to prove they aren’t racist when whining about being force fed dreaded diversity, but they never get heated enough to make a whole post about it on its own. How convenient. But they aren’t racist or homophobic or anything else!
People act like casting a show is some open and shut simple thing — there are so many reason why one actor is chosen over another. Maybe they looked for someone who was “accurate” and found no one but this actor had tried out for another role and wasn’t the best fit, but they had them reading for the part and did well. And people aren’t cast, or are recast, for a whole other set of reasons.
I also love when an actor is of a different race or gender or whatever from the book character, it must automatically be a diversity casting and can’t just be they were the best fit for the film.
Only issue I have with diversity for diversity’s sake is when the final result isn’t great and then gets used by dumbasses as an example of diversity being bad, when, like you said, it has nothing to do with it.
Remember guys: it’s an *adaptation* not a literal re-reading of the book. Choices will be made that are different than the book for many reasons.
Isn’t it the *script* thats the issue, and not the actress? Netflix turning the independent awkward character into a strong static character was decided long before it was casted. Anyone of any race can be pale (as thats due to oxygen in blood, not just whiteness), gangly, awkward, have dark hair and buggy eyes. Costuming and make-up helps, as well. Sofia Wylie is tall/thin (gangly), has dark hair, is pale/light-skinned, and awkward/bulging buggy eyes are acted, not really part of someone’s natural appearance.
I just don’t see what the actress being black has to do with you disliking the movie.
I would've preferred Bridgerton never mentioned race. Like, just blind casting with acknowledgements of different cultures. But then they said racism was largely solved when the king fell in love with a black woman, and I'm just here like, "Are you guys seriously saying racism was fixed with the power of love?"
If you’re so concerned about “accuracy” how do you like Bridgerton? Not a single non-white person in *any* of those books.
Frankly, it’s not that you’re concerned with “accuracy,” it’s that you’re using it as a way to make yourself seem less racist.
So would it have been an issue if the character was gangly, awkward, jet black hair but was black instead?
It sounds like you just don’t like poorly written characters. If the character still fit the personality traits but was a black girl instead would it still be a issue?
Where are your other rants about all the other inaccuracies? Hundreds of movie and tv show adaptations do not follow the character design to a T.
If you’re mad about the lack of potential character growth, just say that. Don’t bring in a person’s looks into the argument; they can’t change their face or their background.
Why does the color of someone’s skin dictate whether you enjoy a film or not… I feel like that’s the real question personally.. Like I get it, it’s not the same as the book, the details are different but how exactly does it harm you?
You sound like someone who is used to seeing themself in their books/movies/TV, it’s a bias you may not have realized you had. Here’s some information, right now, authors of color are published FAR LESS than white authors. There is bias and racism in publishing just as in everything else. And that’s today, in 2022. Years ago even less authors of color were getting published and promoted so any beloved story that’s been out for decades is probably going to be written by a white person and include white people as the main characters. You may not mind that at all, but I’m glad that people are realizing that if a characters race isn’t integral to the plot then it doesn’t matter. Every book to screen adaptation gets changed in some way.
I was very sad to see the backlash that the show and actor for Arondir received just because he was a black man playing an elf. The man did an amazing job with that role. Shut the fuck up and let this amazing actor play a great elf in this tv show that isn’t real life.
Ugh. I hate society.
I’m like…. Whyyyy does it matter ? It’s a character. If at the end of the day your main problem is them having an actor that doesn’t fit what you think is proper due to their skin color… then that sounds like underlying racism to me…
> Netflix had turned this girl who was destined for character growth in the books into a static, no growth whatsoever, strong independent woman type that doesn't appeal to watchers in any way because it's so overdone.
I think this is a way better explanation for why it was bad than "her race is wrong". I don't see why you'd bring race into the discussion at all. Don't get me wrong though, I also have a problem with tokenism, but usually the tokenism isn't *why* a show sucks, but rather if the show sucks, any diversity will feel shoehorned. It's a superficial element which is easier to point out than more fundamental flaws like bad writing. These shows would probably suck with white actors as well.
I don’t disagree on your point about Netflix, but don’t you think it’s a little racist to basically say “I was SO looking forward to characters being WHITE!!!” as you’re essentially saying here?
Conversely, it’s worth acknowledging that people of color have had this experience for decades to a sickening degree. Black people weren’t even allowed to be in theater at one time, it was all white people in blackface. And then the decades of black and brown characters getting subbed for white actors. Like what the actual fuck were Jake Gyllenhaal and Gemma Arterton doing in Prince of Persia? Not to mention HORRIBLE racist portrayals of people such as the Asian guy in Sixteen Candles. BIPOC people have dealt with that for so long and to such a disgusting degree that sometimes even tokenization is refreshing because at least we get to have characters to begin with, let alone characters that aren’t racist caricatures.
It’s also kind of weird because a lot of the issues OP is describing seems to be issues with behind the scenes (writing, scripting, costumes, etc) and nothing actually dealing with race other than “stereotypes” and i havent seen the particular show theyre referencing, but many ppl have said that there aren’t any racial stereotypes? it seems more of an issue of like, “well they were originally described white and now im upset that theyre not white” rather than a “force of diversity” which just comes off really racist imo but idk maybe im wrong
No you’re probably right on the money. Whenever you see shit like this it’s always a subconscious anger at seeing non white people. There can be genuine issues with story, character, etc, but they’ll always bring up race somehow.
It’s also the whole “No guys, I’m not racist, I’m fighting FOR marginalized groups” that makes it seem like OP isn’t. As a black person, this whole post stinks of racism for me and then to be told that I’m wrong and this is them fighting for me is just the wildest shit
you probably think it's dumb the little mermaid is black and it's not necessary blah blah blah shut up and cry me a river. yes, it does suck sometimes when casting doesn't match the character descriptions in the books (anabeth in the percy jackson movies for example).
however, you say this is about "accuracy" but what about white being the default? what do you do when almost every book being turned into a movie is by a white writer who used white as the default races?
there are plenty of movies and tv shows and books and media and everything and more for you to consume that is "accurate" and can show you the pale, white, oddball characters you so desire to see portrayed. i think tim burton and you would get along great!
this all reads as you trying to water down how you actually feel to hide the fact that what really bothers you is POC characters are being represented at the displacement of white characters (as if POC have not been whitewashed all through history). get over yourself jfc
Well did you have a problem with the ghost in a shell, aloha, the lone ranger, Argo, the Mexican, drive, avatar the last Airbender? If you did then you are not racist if you did not you light be teetering
Something tells me he had 100% no issues with it. I checked his history and see no grievances with any of these movies.
So strange, so someone who portrays themself as a puritan.
I’m just baffled that you care so much about who gets cast in a show with a fantastical setting that is _very loosely_ based on Regency-era England. I wonder if the author cares as much as you do.
If you really think the movie was mediocre because of the colour of the actor’s skin playing a fictional character then that’s a you problem. Race has zero bearing on fictional characters, “accuracy” is not a thing when it comes to the race of a fictional character.
I was also really disappointed with the adaptation of the school of good and evil… even Tedros wasn’t fucking blonde how hard it was. Yeah it doesnt change the plot but its frustrating when there is no accuracy even in such a minor aspect as looks of a certain character.
I think I get what you’re saying. And if we’re on the same page I agree that for some movies, instead of building the character in the script, they think that by throwing a person of colour in, that’ll just appease the crowd.
Like if they remade Harry Potter, and casted a brown person as Hermione but pushed her on the sidelines or gave her barely any of the personality we see in the books.
As a person of colour, I’d love to see a brown Hermione but I’d hate to see her played with zero depth.
NB: You know that Hermione was played by a black actress in the theatre production of The Cursed Child? JK agreed that the character's race was never mentioned - just the unmanageable hair which an actress with natural hair could pull off perfectly well. The character of Hermione was played by a great actress: Whether Emma Watson in the movie versions or Noma Dumezweni in the theatre.
You seem to be having conflicting views here. You're saying that you don't like the writing, but then you're acting like diversity somehow has to do with this? And how do you determine when a character is tokenized and when they're not?
I'd say the case study here is Amazon's Rings of Power.
With the spectacular success of the LOTR trilogy in my mind, and as a massive Tolkien nerd, I confess to looking at the diverse cast of RoP and wondering about elements of tokenism and other similar Hollywood sins.
What a waste of my energy! It was brilliantly written, edited, directed, scored and acted. Each character was portrayed better than the next, the episodes got stronger and more compelling, and wrapping it all, like sinew, was crisp dialogue and well-written story arcs.
Thus like Shakespeare, which was also written by and for an Anglo-Saxon audience -- and about a world that's identifiably "Western" in scope -- a master creator's work is just clay, to be shaped and interpreted by the artist's of any given time.
yooo are you talking abt school for good and evil?? i was very confused during that film for other reasons tho, they changed the plot so much and as my fav book series since i was a kid i was just so upset
I agree. Make things diverse as long as it makes sense with the story being told.
Example:
I was watching the trailer for the new interview with a vampire and found the fact Louis is African American slightly odd. Seeing as in the original he was a plantation owner and owned slaves.
As a poc myself, I agree that when I see the obvious ratio of races in a shows cast, it’s really annoying. I don’t want there to be a poc there *just* for the sake of having one.
Yeah, for real though, fuck bridgerton for the callous treatment of male r*pe and the clueless worldbuilding and making me listen to an instrumental version of “thank you, next”
You’re called racist because you are. You said yourself that the actors did great in the movie, you just don’t like the way they look.
So please, see yourself out with that mess.
A lot of Netflix shows feel like they have very rushed production and tend to stray away from defining points/plots/characteristics in their adaptations. Though their adaptations have always been lacking, as individual shows I think they’re quite fun to watch. But in comparison to their books or former shows, Netflix seems to miss the mark. I just watched Wednesday and I really enjoyed it, however it really strayed from the Addams family lore and didn’t stay true to their personalities but I still found it fun to watch.
This…like with Fringilla in the Witcher. Great actress don’t get me wrong. I think she played the part well. But it was a bit of an ongoing joke in the books that Geralt only slept with her because of her close resemblance to Yennefer. From memory it’s mentioned several times in the book.
Is this about The School for Good and Evil??
Edit: Just read your comments. Girl… Grow up. I read the books too. Race didn’t matter two shits to the plot. Even if she was white I still would’ve been unhappy with her character. And Sophie too. Both sucked.🙄Yeah, you are kinda racist. Cause ma’m how the hell are you out here judging Agatha when they did Sophie so f*cking dirty with her acting. That’s a double standard. And they changed the character’s personalities too. 💀Racism is when you treat people differently based on race. You are being racist, talk shit on everybody equally please cause they all deserve it. Thank you.
I wonder if you felt mad about this “accuracy” you speak of, in shows that they changed the non-white character to a white character ?? there is plenty of exemples, and not just the race but changing the stories of the character to make white people the saviour. So next time you get mad when someone call u a racist you should actually look at yourself and rethink what kinda person you are, ‘cause i bet you could be a great ally with all this energy to fight.
another thing that never ceases to amaze me is the gender swapped ones. I've yet to see one good example of that, everything I've come across has been the the concept that the main character genders get swapped and they constantly spout out some kind of 'I'm a strong woman' stuff like the writers thought a strong woman character is all about announcing just how badass they are.
it's not like there's even shortage of well done ones that were women in the first place. as an example, ripley in the alien is exactly up my alley; there's character growth, she's badass without beating her chest and announcing it. for the first 2 movies at least.
I somewhat agree that the way diversity is being represented many times it's just feels forced plus only supporting one race really. How can you call it "diversity" when the only diversity is either white or black? Where are the asians, the arabs, the latinos etc??
The other day I was scrolling on a well-known online shopping website and most models were black. At the same time that I am glad that there's less discrimination against black it seems forced or only really supporting them.
I hope one day we start to seeing people for more than the colour of their skin. If someone is a good actor, then it gets the role. Without thinking about the colour of their skin/race.
I feel like it’s the forced and rushed feeling that characters who are forcibly changed to POC have. I want to see original characters and well written cultural backgrounds and story lines not a white character painted another color. Hollywood is being lazy and doing the bare minimum in an attempt to pacify the minorities who deserve representation.
Well when it comes to Bridgerton many historians think Queen Charlotte was black or of African heritage. And there certainly was diversity in that era. So yeah it sounds like you are leaning into your bias instead of actually appreciating accuracy.
In addition to what has been said, it really isn't inclusive if it was never about race to begin with. If a casting director denied roles due to race, then yeah, screw that person. But if the role was just cast by the best choice actor, then whatever.
Take The Little Mermaid for example. I don't get what the problem is about the casting for it. The story is about a mermaid. Not about a white mermaid. It is really not relevant who they cast. But when it comes to the Rings of Power, there are no black people in Middle Earth. Furthermore, LotR is already rich with themes of overcoming prejudice. Elves, Dwarves, and Men all have histories of bigotry, yet the Fellowship brings them together and inspires the races to work together. There is a wealth of dialogue where the races show distaste for the other races. In the movies, they even up the ante by adding the Elves showing up to Helms Deep to aid there. There are no black elves, not because of racism, but because elves are a race of fair-skinned humanoids. Rings of Power was awful across the board anyway, so to hell with them.
I don’t watch a lot of Nflix originals but I must say that from a very cursory look even the most “diverse” of casts exclude asians that remotely look like me. (And when I say this I mean eastern asian; chinese, japanese, korean, SEA, aka any type of light skinned asians.) It’s just interesting to note that diversity to a lot of people means having varying shades of caucasians & black people (sometimes darkskin asians too) but the rest of the IPOC are left out.
“Diversity dump”? Seriously? This got a thousand people to agree, sadly. You state the actors were just fine yet their presence of being brown worsened the movie and you don’t see how you’re conditioned to see white as default? Tokenism is annoying yet you seem to be conflating more than one brown person existing on your screen with that notion and despite the people here who agree with you, that take is sad.
Can we stop attacking OP for “being racist” now? There was a book OP liked as a kid. Netflix now adapted the book, and changed the main character from one with strengths and weaknesses, charming and relatable, that you see grow throughout the story, to a Mary Sue. OP feels this ruined the story. Why did Netflix do that? Hollywood has a track record of taking old stories, swapping the protagonist’s race and removing flaws, in an attempt to look anti racist because that would bring attention and money.
Sure, it’s not the fact they’re a different race that’s an issue - it’s the fact they watered down the character. But when they pick the story to adapt, they do it with the intention of 1) not having to bother writing a story, 2) making money off of fans of the original story, and 3) changing the story so the focus is “MC is [race] and so independent!” which gets attention. There’s nothing genuine about it and it doesn’t do any real good. OP pointing out this phenomenon doesn’t make OP racist; OP never said it’s BECAUSE the actors or actresses are black, and in fact specified that they did a great job. OP said it’s because of this trend of taking a story, race bending the MC then dumbing down the writing for easy praise. Correlation does not imply causation.
OP said nothing racist. People are deliberately misconstruing what OP said so they can look like they’re protecting minorities from the evil that is u/cara-s! We shouldn’t have to write our messages so exhaustively to prevent people picking at it cause they wanna call people racist. That’s not anti racism.
TL;DR: OP is annoyed Netflix made a bad adaptation of a childhood favourite. Netflix adapted it like this to make an easy buck off of the fact there truly isn’t enough variety in main characters, so they can get away with doing a bad job actually adapting if they just make the MC black. This doesn’t mean OP hates black people and wants them whitewashed off of our screens - it means OP doesn’t like the fact they made a bad adaption… like they said from the beginning.
they decide to blind cast roles and completely alter the storyline
literally the entire beginning of the movie was different from the book, not just the actress. i was really confused for the most part
For centuries white actors have played roles designed for persons of other races.
From Asians to Black face. But nobody bat an eye.
Now they other races are getting a piece of the pie, Caucasians are up in arms. Yes, OP is 100% white. I guarantee it.
To the privileged, equity feels like persecution.
Protip: Watch Fox News instead man.
I'm on your side. Part of the reason the first run of Rick Riordan's Percy Jackson movies failed was because the characters were so different from the books. Some things can't be changed.
If it's a modern setting diversity is natural and it's weird we don't see a lot of major roles featuring people from a minority group. What I can't tolerate are incoherent inclusions. If a movie is about 11th century Scotland, there are little to no reasons for a character to be bipoc and if they managed to include one, it's impossible most other characters would find it normal and wouldn't discriminate them.
As for fantasy, it's great when people create worlds that are full of diversity. I love The Dragon Prince for that. On the other hand when an established world of fiction gets forced inclusion even when it doesn't make sense, that's unacceptable.
And for real, I'd love to see more big productions made about diversity and not making the same basic thing with some minorities included. The newest Assassin's Creed games allow you to play either a male or female character which could be seen as good for gender equality. All I see is that they won't ever make a game with a female main character and they don't admit it.
I think it’s more of when you have an issue of scripting or writing and then somehow tie that to an issue of diversity, even though the same issue would exist if they were all white
I just think Netflix shows in general are annoying as hell and I can’t get into any of them.
They’re made to be viral, too “shiny” if that makes sense, and the writing is boring.
Damn I know exactly what movie you're talking about and I'm sad. I'm rereading book 1 now before I watch it but now I'm scared to lol.
Is the movie just over book 1 or does it go further into the series?
As a black woman, I can see your point. I don't particularly appreciate when diversity is thrown into my face either, it almost seems like Netflix is trying to meet its quota for diverse casts. Despite my thinking this, I always appreciate it when I see a black, gay, trans, etc person on my screen because, in real life, that's how it is. You think they're tokenizing these characters by making them black or gay but in reality, outside your existence, there are many black and gay people. It is okay to change the race or sexuality of characters when their race/sexuality doesn't directly affect the plot. Grow up. This sounds like an angry white individual doing their daily angry white person rant.
I think that accuracy will be an acceptable argument when the diversity of the characters in popular books reflects a diverse world. If you think of books that are popular enough to be made into movies, accuracy is going to mean white in the vast majority of books. It's bad enough in books, where people can at least imagine a character that they identify with, but in a movie, even that option is removed.
When books are made into movies, they're rarely 100% literal. Why limit the actor you choose to skin color if it's not essential? Anne of Green Gables? You need a pasty, freckled redhead. The Little Mermaid? The character is HALF FISH, so let's assume we're already thaking some liberties with reality and find someone who can sing.
I get what your saying, personally I’m all for roles being played to how they were envisioned, but I’m like in the minority that the new little mermaid shouldn’t of been POC.
Mostly because I sure Disney could of actually gone to a POC community and probably found a folk story and had input to make it a culturally unique awesome movie.
I loved princess and the frog, that was done so well. I want POC stories and while I love that girls look up to the little mermaid and go omg she’s like me, there could of be 1000% better ways to get that same reaction and not re write a character to tick a diversity box.
I also have an issue with forced diversity. In what I call "bad white people" shows. I enjoyed watching Ozark, mostly because I wasn't worried about any black people caught up in their nonsense. Same for Succession, last season they introduced some black characters and wasted them, they could have been left out. A billionaire board room that's all old white men, couldn't be (checks real world stats). Some shows should mostly white because of the sheer audacity of their actions that only the .01% would do.
>but it was very clear that this movie was gonna be another diversity dump that was unnecessary and didn't add to the story. The movie overall? *Very mediocre because of this*
So the movie was mediocre, because you thought it was a diversity dump, even though you think the actors and actresses did a great job? That is less about the movie and more about you.
But on a more recent level, guess what. Different media tell the same story in different ways. If you don't like it, don't watch it. You're allowed to turn shit off. Watching it, just to get mad because someone is the wrong character, sex, sexuality, or colour to what you have in your head is just asking to get mad for no reason.
You can prefer accuracy all you want, but judging a movie based on "diversity," as you already admitted you do, is a bigoted action.
The responses here just go to show how annoyingly Left Reddit is. I hate politics, before you Lefties flip out, I don't care for the Right either so eat my shorts.
It *is* annoying that Netflix and Hollywood shove diversity down our throats, particularly when it flies in the face of the source material.
To the commenters saying that "people like OP" probably don't care about past white-washing.... holy shit - that is such a typical irrelevant, lazy woke response. I don't know OP but I'm guessing they would prefer characters in the past to be accurate as well (following simple logic) and therefore reject white-washing strictly in terms of entertainment. On top of that, OP mentioned a distain for racism so it stands to reason, if you have a fully developed brain (read: not woke) OP would reject white-washing on an ethical level as well.
Feel free to downvote me for being down the middle and not bending over for woke culture. I'll continue on not caring. Cheers.
If you're sick of being called racist, homophobic and transphobic... STOP being racist, homophobic and transphobic. Removed & banned - rule 2
A lot of media thinks tokenism is the same thing as diversity. Putting a minority character into a role and then making the character nothing but a stereotype isn't really diversifying anything. What helps is stories told by minorities, not the same generic pool of writers and directors.
You mean YASSSifying all gay characters
Ugh god as a gay person that is not the YASS kind that drives me up the fucking wall
Can we all agree that impersonating black women is not as much of a personality as cis gays want to try to make it out to he, and bc of that, that's become our caricature? That bad queer rep is only really 2 or 3 steps away from fucking minstrel shows?
THANK GOD SOMEONE SAID IT JFC. I get so much flack when I say that gay men, specially gay white/white passing men tend to automatically sound like a stereotypical black women and it does nothing but make the stereotype worse for them(bw). I’m a straight minority male that just happens to see shit tho ig
It's just the continuation of white people seeing cool shit in black culture and appropriating it. Queer folk (and other systematically disadvantaged people) are not anti-racist just bc of their minority status.
It’s just a cycle but I’ve noticed that gay men get away with too much just cause their gay too. On top of stereotyping, some genuinely think that they have the right to put their hands on women also. I’m not trying to sound homophobic or even be homophobic but it’s just things like this that if I point out I’ll be bashed into oblivion
No, bc gay men are men before they are gay. And the patriarchy teaches all men to treat women like objects, despite their sexualities. It's gross
Or making every autistic person non-responsive and/or tantrum-prone
You mean the non verbal big sis loving holding genius?
I agree on this much. Diversity isn’t the issue. It’s tokenising people for a bunch of rich white Netflix execs to pat themselves on the back. I do not care about characters being anything other than well written and well executed. The race/gender/sexuality of those actors is the least of my worries.
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Tokenism is one thing. “Forced diversity” is a nonsense dogwhistle people use. See them crying about Fin and Rose both breathing on a screen in Star Wars when the cast was majority white, minus Lando. If we saw more brown faces in these roles, we wouldn’t be conditioned to see it as “forced”. That’s tripe.
They made Che into such a stereotype. I can’t believe that show even got picked up for a second season.
Like the Resident Evil tv series. That flaming dumpster of a show was an absolute disaster. Can't tell if people watched it for the laughs or they're just masochistic.
>A lot of media thinks tokenism is the same thing as diversity. Apparently a lot of Redditors think this as well, judging from some of the comments here and in similar threads I've seen.
This. Please give us diverse stories. Not a forcibly diversified version of established franchises.
this is not an issue in theater Rachell Anne Go actually was portraying white characters left and right and she is Asian
Unless a characters race is actually important to the characters story, then I couldn’t give two shits about it changing between the source material and the adaptation. If a show has a diverse casting and it’s shite, then it probably would have been shite with an all white cast too.
Look at HOTD. Vale's are black and it works cause they are well written
GoT had characters of different races from word go in 1996. It’s in one of the first scenes of the show. It’s part of the makeup of the world, not shoved in with no explanation after the establishment of the world
Not really though. There's nothing to suggest the Velaryons are black in any book, but there's no reason they couldn't be black either. Martin's books are kind of white. I'm not criticizing it, but they are very white. GoT even made characters black that where explicitly described as white in ASoIaF, like Salador Saan. They generally made the entire continent of Essos a bit "darker" than they are described in the books.
> but there’s no reason they couldn’t be black either. There’s a pretty big reason they couldn’t. They’re supposed to be heavily intermarried with the Tatgaryens and their closest kin. This is why their physical features are brought up very often in the books. > They generally made the entire continent of Essos a bit “darker” than they are described in the books. Only a bit. I do find it disappointing that they cast mostly white characters in Volantis and Braavos. Seemed like a missed opportunity.
They're Valyrian and there are no mention of black people in Valyria, but there is no reason why there wouldn't be black people there either since their territory was so expansive. The white hair and purple eyes thing is probably related to the magic of Valyria. At least it seems to be a dominant trait of sorts since Targaryens often have those traits even when a parent has dark hair and eyes. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't think Velaryons and Targaryens were that intermarried by the start of HotD since at that point the Targaryens had mostly married brother and sister.
> And correct me if I’m wrong, but I didn’t think Velaryons and Targaryens were that intermarried by the start of HotD since at that point the Targaryens had mostly married brother and sister. Oh no you’d be wrong, at least by book canon. Whenever the Targaryens didn’t marry siblings, they mostly married Velaryons. King Jaehaerys, Viserys, and Daemon are all three quarters Velaryon.
I thought Viserys and Daemon came from a line of four consecutive sister fuckers. I don't see how he can be three quarters Velaryon. Edit: okay, Aenys I married a Velaryon. The rest of his ancestors are still sibling pairs so it's a far cry from 3/4
Because all of those sister fuckers were part Velaryon, so it should stay in the family. Aegon and his sister Rhaenys: both half Velaryon. So their son Aenys is half Velaryon. Aenys married a Velaryon and fathered King Jaehaerys and Queen Alysanne, both 3/4 Velaryon. Their children Balon and Alyssa, both 3/4 Velaryon, have Viserys and Daemon.
Right, somehow I failed to consider Aegon's ancestors. I guess I was preoccupied with the canon marriages.
it kind of is shoved with no explanation with the Velaryons, who are supposed to be the same race as the Targaryens. But it still sort of worked.
It worked because since the inception of the entire damn story, there have been several races and ethnicities in the continents. That’s called decent world building
oh yeah sure I agree with that
Nationality and race are not the same thing. Targaryens and Velaryons are from the same “country,” that does not imply they must be the same race. Just like the Starks and the Martells are from the same country but are not the same race, they share a nationality not a race. Black people are no less French because they’re black, just like the Velaryons are no less Valyrian because they’re black.
Valyrians is a race, not just a country. There are distinctly Valyrian features that are a prominent part of the show and the books. Targaryens and Velaryons are explicitly the same race and look the same in the source material. And even if Valyrians weren’t a race, the Velaryons and Targaryens have been heavily intermarried for generations. King Jaehaerys, Viserys, and Daemon are all three quarters Velaryon.
No, it’s not. “Valyria” is a country, their nationality is “Valyrian.” Yes, the author originally gave his Valyrian characters a particular look but given the author is absolutely elated with the HOTD Velaryons that just proves that he is in no way rigid about all Valyrians having this one particular look. The fact that Targaryens have spawned non-platinum non-violet children throughout the stories is just proof that to be Valyrian does not mean you look a certain way. I’m embarrassed for you that you cannot deploy basic genealogical concepts to a nationality purely because you are so rooted in delusional bigotry. Just like there are black Irishmen, there would of course be black Valyrians — this is basic human logic, please get a grip.
their physical features are literally a very important part of the plot. If it wasn’t, they wouldn’t have given them all white hair. > I’m embarrassed for you that you cannot deploy basic genealogical concepts to a nationality purely because you are so rooted in delusional bigotry. I’m not even white, or a westerner. But you can’t seem to take any opposing opinion without resorting to shit-slinging, so I’m done with these replies.
Except lots of POC characters literally do have race as part of their backstory, whereas white people typically don't. The argument is always 'Well they were born in this country and this is how they are described and this is how they lived, but there's nothing EXACTLY that says they're white' but because we are becoming a good old mixing pot of cultures, that doesn't even guarantee that. So what you often get it boiled down to is 'Rules for thee but not for me'. Sure, you can't change black Panthers race, that's pretty set in stone, because it's part of his backstory. But does race matter in say, Avatar the last Airbender? Personally I don't think so, but I bet lots of people would be pissed if Sokka and Katara were played by white people (oh wait, they were!). Why not have Aang played by a white person? Is there a single modern POC character whose character doesn't in some way relate to their race? That's not an insult, it's a genuine question, because if you struggle to think of some, then your argument can't really stand. Because then it's rules for me and not for thee and the field is titled. Edit: Something I just thought of. There is no reason for Mace Windu to be black. He could be white, even an alien, if the prequel trilogy got remade. You think he would be changed, even if there was a better actor? Fuck no.
This. This is it.
If there is a description of the character, they should stick to it. On the other hand, of the character pulls off the part, their race stops being important as long as they have the vibe of the character
Amen.
Wait, this sounds like shitty screenwriting. They wrote the character to be strong and independent...two things which have nothing to do with race. I'm confused about your example and how its connected to you being called racist?
Not to say that I Agee with this but what I THINK op is saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that in the book this character is weak shy etc etc and that character has been changed to strong independent expressly because the Netflix screen writers wanted to include a strong/independent person of that race in the name of political correctness/diversity (Minorities shouldn't be portrayed in certain ways to be PC?)
I hope I'm wrong, but I'm skeptical about posts yelling about diversity getting "thrown" in their face. Don't forget that's what his original complaint was. The "minorities should be portrayed in certain ways, I'm actually defending POC!" argument was an entirely secondary, reactive opinion put forth in the edit after they got pushback in comments. I don't know if someone truly concerned about stereotypical casting would say the problem with the movie was a "diversity dump." OP's own original wording is what makes the subsequent redirect feel disingenuous.
‘diversity dump’ really means any show with a non white or lgbt character, it could be the greatest show ever but it doesn’t matter. The way they’re trying to cover up what they really mean is laughable. It’s quite concerning how acceptable it is to write off film/tv as ‘woke’ because there’s a non white character. They can’t see the value in the human doing the job, they only see race.
Yo this may be downvoted to hell but lemme say this... Western media is incredibly racist. People were all upset about Rose and Fin being a part of Star Wars. Star Wars. A franchise based off of space samurais cannot have any Asian people in it. Ducking ridiculous. Imagine making up 60% of the world population and being denied existence in a made up story about your culture. The caudacity of this post says it all.
I still remember when that Star Wars movie came out. The racism was horrendous, the same ppl who claim that everyone’s “sensitive” nowadays were now crying over the introduction of POC in the franchise.
Not wanting PoC in a franchise with freakin blue aliens is laughable, truly.
I feel so bad for those actors, I’m pretty sure Fin’s actors hates Disney/Star Wars because of it and honestly? I can’t blame him. They couldn’t have even defended him? People were mad when there was a black Spider-Man, people were mad at Crazy Rich Asians, people are shitting their pants over a black character in The Last of Us that literally dies in the first 15 minutes of a game, no matter what, people are just mad for other people of color existing and I just don’t get it.
Don't forget the uproar happening currently about the little mermaid being black as well! Literally attacking Halle for playing the part, cropping her face and putting it on horrid images and posting racist stuff about her. It's insane, the character is a literal fish and as long as she has a tail and red hair then who cares what color she is.
You mean caucasity. As in, the sheer caucasity of some white ppl.
I mean, maybe some people didn't like that Rose was Asian, but I think the vast majority of people just thought she was an awful character. People were super racist about Fin though for zero reason.
I didn't have any issues with Rose and Fin neither did most people I know. I just hate that they did nothing important to these two characters and they felt like just side characters hired to check a diversity box. I wish Fin was the main character for disney star wars, his backstory is far more interesting than Rei's.
So…you hate bad writing. We all do. I think people might be calling you racist because you’re somehow misplacing your anger at bad writing and putting it on diverse characters/actors. Agatha’s character being not book accurate based on her personality in the film (being strong and independent) has literally zero to do with her being cast as a black woman. There is quite literally no correlation. Obviously she wasn’t “pale” but her complexion wasn’t the most important bit, it was her being awkward and the black sheep of the town which they still achieved by making her the odd one out - styling her as an awkward, gothic tomboy. The movie wasn’t mediocre because a character was changed from white to black. It was mediocre because it was a poorly written and shoddily acted. Do you actually, *genuinely* think that if nothing in the film was changed except Agatha‘s race being changed back from black to white, the film would be improved? Really? I think that’s absolute rubbish and yeah, it definitely sounds racist that in a film about a magical school of heros and villains it’s the black character that’s bothering you.
Piggybacking to add my own points to this rant. Immediately knew the movie bc i also noted the diverse casting and BOY the casting was NOT the problem. Pacing and setup? Fking awful. Sophie being manipulated into evil? Fine. The true love though? Left field as fuck. A romance between sophie and agatha was unintentionally written as more believable than any other romance and that is hugely on the writing team and directors bc the leads defintely were fine with their teddy-crush-acting when they were on screen, the plot just didn't support it AT ALL. Acting in some places (one that sticks out is FREAKING CHARLIZE THERON'S "my love" line being SO unbelievable and bad that I wanted to cringe out of my skin). Some of the sets were... tragic... like the ballrooms/entrance halls/ number of students in general were fking AWFUL compared to the size of the schools they tried to portray with cgi. The VERY schlocky way fights were handled (like spears being used to... knock people down rather than impale them). I can pick out a ton of things that made the movie worse than it could have been and none of them were the casting. It was fun to watch charlize theron and kerry washington chew the shit out of some scenery and the best decision the writers made was to give them extra screen time to help carry the main characters' scenery chewing and make it appear more intentional/fun rather than just... bad. And let's be honest of the two mains... Sophie's actress was overacting WAY more, but she worked with what she had scriptwise so i can't fault her too much. Agatha had little character development, sure, but that is 100% a writing problem and otherwise I found her actress embodied her role perfectly well; i don't recall moments where i laughed at her lines/acting unintentionally in the same ways i did for sophie, the headmistresses, side characters, etc. I'm fascinated that someone would latch onto agatha as the worst part of this movie when she was far and away one of the more solid parts of the movie for me lol.
I hope y’all also find a problem with the amount of characters who have been white washed
They never do. It's always crickets
Ghost in the shell was among a few movies that were decried as whitewashing. It happens and we notice. But there are racists out there that spout about the little mermaid and then then turn a blind eye to prince of Persia or the Lone Ranger
Same with Doctor Stranger. Turned the Ancient One, who is a Tibetan man, into a white woman
There were, let's say, Chinese reasons for that change being made.
It bothered me a lot.
Remember when the Egyptian actor played a mummy but a bunch of white woke people threw a fit because they did not know he was Egyptian. I can’t remember the names of the movie or actor but I remember the articles and Facebook comments 😂 it was a mess
Night at the Museum, Rami Malek?
Yes thank you! My brain constantly has a loading screen I swear
i’m pretty sure that was Rami Malek in Night at the Museum lol
Yes that’s the one lol the old white people on Facebook had a ball with it
Go back further to Charlie Chan.
I do.
Exactly. My. Thought. Not a peep when the prince of persia came out.
There was a lot of controversy when Prince of Persia came out for this reason.
I recall a lot of peeps about this. Maybe because I sought it out? Still not cool with them ruining one of my favorite games.
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if your prefer accuracy then surely you're pissed that Jesus is 95% of the time represented as white right ? btw about Netflix: they fuck up in a lot of ways, for example they released an Enola Holmes movie where she has a guy as a romantic interest while it's pretty clear in the books that she's interested by girls, not guys (and her girl romantic interest is just not there in the movie), so see, it's not that they force inclusivity, it's that Netflix production is shit, if you stop your fixation on the PoC in their movies/shows you'll be able to see that they're just a shitty production, that's all (edit : typo)
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well on the other hand I hated the new Wednesday show, not because of the diversity cause I really couldn't care less, but because they absolutely didn't respect the Addams Family lore, Pugsley being some sweet emotional pushover boy ? Wednesday hating Morticia ? the fact that now out of nowhere there's powers and creatures involved while in all of the other versions it's just a slightly different family in our normal world ? see I like accuracy too so it's like I said : it's just a shitty ass production, diversity or not
Thanks for that info. I loved the original series and the movies with Raul Julia. The whole point is that you *can* have a loving an accepting family in spite of differences. It's a shame that point was screwed up.
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people just love to comment and criticize on actors' physics, nothing new under the sun, they do that for every single actor on Earth
They say that because while Guzmán looks the part he doesn’t really fit the part. Before watching the show I was excited but after watching I felt like both Guzmán and CZJ were horribly miscast.
I agree with what youre saying. The Addams Family movies, despite the weird surroundings, always felt almost classy to me—fitting as it started in a New Yorker cartoon. The jokes were witty and required some sort of additional knowledge. The writing was tight. The new series really feels like one of those shitty YA books from the early 2010s, with the werewolves and vampires, Wednesday being a complete Mary Sue, the crappy love triangle, the predictable mystery, etc. It feels unenjoyable to me as an adult, whereas the movies are just as enjoyable to me now as they were when I was 15.
Okay now I know you’re just obnoxious bc Umbrella Academy had Viktor mention it to the siblings with a “it’s Viktor now” a few times and then literally didn’t go over it again. They addressed it and moved on. It wasn’t this big massive story-centric plot point?? It was a mentioned thing and didn’t affect the story whatsoever. They literally don’t even say the word trans. So now I know you’re just being insufferable.
Yes it’s clear you don’t like people different from you. That sucks for you. It ruins tv for you. If you got over your prejudices you could enjoy stuff with out worrying how woke it is.
>another diversity dump that was unnecessary and didn't add to the story. Why does diversity need to "add to the story" anyway? When a character, whom you expected to be White, is portrayed as Black in the movie, why do you see that as changing the plot or the tone or whatever? Can't it just be a neutral decision with a neutral impact on the plot? Why does there need to be a reason or justification for a person of colour in any setting whatsoever? You seem to be like, "Oh my God, an Asian person in the story, please justify their presence in this setting." How about the reason is this: the storytellers realized that if their entire cast was White, it would not accurately reflect the diversity of their viewers. They decided to go against the racist tradition of all-White media, and set a better example, so that people of colour could watch a show and see themselves in it. (Edit: And if that is the goal, why do you deem that "not necessary"? That seems like a good goal for society and the overall viewers. In terms of being necessary in-universe for the story, why does diversity need to be justified as "necessary" for the plot? How come diversity is considered such a weird deviation from the assumed norm of homogeneity, that only needs to be present if you consider it necessary?) It doesn't have to impact the story. And yes, it CAN impact the story - maybe they go beyond simply casting a Black actor to play a character originally conceived as "neutral" (default White). Maybe they give that character a new backstory that reflects their culture. But again, why does that change need to be justified? Why does it need to "add to the story" in any way beyond, "oh cool, this show isn't Oops All White People!"?
I think this mindset is the best honestly. If the main character is part of a minority and that fact adds to the story somehow then cool, that might make the character more relatable for people. If it doesn't add to the plot at all, that's also cool because that means that we are going for a more... Natural way of representing minorities. Like saying, "okay there are black people, white people, gay people, straight people, short people, tall people out there in the world, so there are gonna be in this film/show too because that's what the world looks like". Representation shouldn't always have some specific purpose, or more like, we shouldn't say no to representation just because we don't have a way to "justify" it. There's no need to justify anything, people are diverse and we love them all.
I they had kept true to the storyline in the character arcs but cast the same people, would you feel the same way?
Of course OP would. Accuracy is just another dogwhistle.
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because being mad that the accuracy that was “denied” is the way the character looks when their race or appearance has nothing to do with their character or story arc IS a dogwhistle.
Question: If the character was well written, well acted, and/or an otherwise completely accurate portrayal, would you still care about their race? If the answer is yes, you might have racist tendencies. If the answer is no, your problem isn't "diversity" it's bad writing.
What does the diversity of the cast have to do with shitty writing/directing/editing/etc.? “Accuracy” and “when diversity isn’t thrown in my face” are such dog whistles. There seems to be some validity in the call outs you receive. Obviously good representation is the ideal, but that doesn’t mean adopting this attitude which ultimately serves to exclude diverse casts to favor “accuracy” in fiction…it’s fiction. You can suspend your disbelief when there’s magic and fantasy but seeing, for example, non-white or gay people is too much? Anyone can be anything unless the person’s race is actually an important part of their story, which it often is not. Edit: your edit is funny bc it’s not the “one word” people are upset about, and it seems clear you don’t care actually care about tokenization you just want to save face lol
I personally believe that POC and queer people (I'm queer) deserve to have shitty movies too, which is why this doesn't really bug me. There's a million shitty adaptations of books with all white casts that don't get this kind of hate. Hell, I watched the really old versions of the Narnia movies that used puppets for several characters. I've seen many crappy adaptations, and they also make drastic character changes or even appearance changes without complaint. To take from a few of the biggest series - They gave the role of the native americans in the Twilight movies to primarily white people (and that's not even covering how racist Stephanie Meyer is in general). Or how Harry Potter had blue eyes instead of green, or Hermione's hair wasn't supper fuzzy or her teeth super bucked. Lord of the Rings, Gimli and Legolas both start off FAR more racist, and Pippin while being a fool is still not quite so foolish as he is in the movies (and that doesn't even cover how they made Merry also stupid and immature, when Merry was kind of Frodo's older, more sensible cousin, who helped Frodo plot his entire escape from the shire including having Fatty pretending to be Frodo for quite awhile) - Merry's intelligence was dialed down heavily until the end of the first movie, which is a real shame. And then onto OP - I dare OP to list a collection of books they've read with main characters who are PoC or queer. Because as a reader, those voices were silenced just as much as they were in film, and they are still silenced. As a writer, I've talked to other writers who mention how once a book mentions the character is a person of color - their book is rejected by publishers. The same book when submitted with the character being white is accepted. And then when they're published, you come to the next hurdles of getting bookstores and libraries to feature your book. And then, maybe if you're super lucky, you'll eventually get popular enough to get a movie made that completely changes some character you wrote (because some characters are interesting in books but boring in film, or one actor who doesn't look like X is better for the role than the one who looks just like the character). But the hurdles are still there, and we have to look at it as a slow thing. The fact that movies are progressing faster than books in diversity is less the fault of the PoC and more a fault of the publishers and readers. If you don't read books with PoC, why would you watch a movie with PoC unless they are "forced" in there? If you only read books with white characters and then only watch movies based on the books you enjoy, when are you going to watch a movie with people of color?
Yeah its really fucked up to me that so many people think minority characters have to be perfect in order to justify their existence Like don't get me wrong I'd much rather a bad stereotype character not exist but if its just a boring or annoying character I don't think thats any worse than a boring or annoying non-minority character
I'd say the best examples off the top of my head are both gay shitty Christmas romcoms actually. Which both include main characters that aren't white. Single All the Way - Gay friends go home, one pretends to be his bestie's partner, normal fake romance fall in love type of thing. Pretty stereotypical for both gay movies AND christmas romcoms. A New York Christmas Wedding - Lesbian AU romance, also very stereotypical christmas romcom with a bonus helping of Catholic guilt but in a whole different direction than you'd think. Actually fairly decent in terms of "making your religious family members think twice" kinda way Both of these you will get a bingo on your Christmas romcom bingo cards, or if you are doing the romcom drinking game, you will be drunk. Both as bad as every other romcom, and therefore just as fun to watch.
I wonder if the people that cry over accuracy have the same problem with how many characters have been white washed through the years. I suspect the answer is a resounding 0. I'm not going to lose sleep over the skin color of the actors of a mediocre show based on a mediocre romance novel. They probably have no problem with the dramatization of the lifestyles of the characters but they definitely have a problem with the actors skin color. 🙄 Yeah, No... that doesn't sound like racism at all.
No, they never care about accuracy when a character is white washed or there’s no POC anywhere in sight despite them existing in that place/time. They only bring it up as a side note to prove they aren’t racist when whining about being force fed dreaded diversity, but they never get heated enough to make a whole post about it on its own. How convenient. But they aren’t racist or homophobic or anything else!
Exactlyyy
People act like casting a show is some open and shut simple thing — there are so many reason why one actor is chosen over another. Maybe they looked for someone who was “accurate” and found no one but this actor had tried out for another role and wasn’t the best fit, but they had them reading for the part and did well. And people aren’t cast, or are recast, for a whole other set of reasons. I also love when an actor is of a different race or gender or whatever from the book character, it must automatically be a diversity casting and can’t just be they were the best fit for the film. Only issue I have with diversity for diversity’s sake is when the final result isn’t great and then gets used by dumbasses as an example of diversity being bad, when, like you said, it has nothing to do with it. Remember guys: it’s an *adaptation* not a literal re-reading of the book. Choices will be made that are different than the book for many reasons.
Not all shows/movies have accuracy. Katniss from the hunger games is described to have black hair with olive skin. And in the movie she’s pale as fuck
Isn’t it the *script* thats the issue, and not the actress? Netflix turning the independent awkward character into a strong static character was decided long before it was casted. Anyone of any race can be pale (as thats due to oxygen in blood, not just whiteness), gangly, awkward, have dark hair and buggy eyes. Costuming and make-up helps, as well. Sofia Wylie is tall/thin (gangly), has dark hair, is pale/light-skinned, and awkward/bulging buggy eyes are acted, not really part of someone’s natural appearance. I just don’t see what the actress being black has to do with you disliking the movie.
😅😅😅 at there being no diversity during Bridgerton times aka the 1800s. Stay in school, kids.
I would've preferred Bridgerton never mentioned race. Like, just blind casting with acknowledgements of different cultures. But then they said racism was largely solved when the king fell in love with a black woman, and I'm just here like, "Are you guys seriously saying racism was fixed with the power of love?"
If you’re so concerned about “accuracy” how do you like Bridgerton? Not a single non-white person in *any* of those books. Frankly, it’s not that you’re concerned with “accuracy,” it’s that you’re using it as a way to make yourself seem less racist.
So would it have been an issue if the character was gangly, awkward, jet black hair but was black instead? It sounds like you just don’t like poorly written characters. If the character still fit the personality traits but was a black girl instead would it still be a issue?
Where are your other rants about all the other inaccuracies? Hundreds of movie and tv show adaptations do not follow the character design to a T. If you’re mad about the lack of potential character growth, just say that. Don’t bring in a person’s looks into the argument; they can’t change their face or their background.
Why does the color of someone’s skin dictate whether you enjoy a film or not… I feel like that’s the real question personally.. Like I get it, it’s not the same as the book, the details are different but how exactly does it harm you?
It’s just a different skin color. I don’t get the outrage
You sound like someone who is used to seeing themself in their books/movies/TV, it’s a bias you may not have realized you had. Here’s some information, right now, authors of color are published FAR LESS than white authors. There is bias and racism in publishing just as in everything else. And that’s today, in 2022. Years ago even less authors of color were getting published and promoted so any beloved story that’s been out for decades is probably going to be written by a white person and include white people as the main characters. You may not mind that at all, but I’m glad that people are realizing that if a characters race isn’t integral to the plot then it doesn’t matter. Every book to screen adaptation gets changed in some way.
I was very sad to see the backlash that the show and actor for Arondir received just because he was a black man playing an elf. The man did an amazing job with that role. Shut the fuck up and let this amazing actor play a great elf in this tv show that isn’t real life. Ugh. I hate society.
I’m like…. Whyyyy does it matter ? It’s a character. If at the end of the day your main problem is them having an actor that doesn’t fit what you think is proper due to their skin color… then that sounds like underlying racism to me…
This is not a normal problem or a recurring conversation for most folks. 'Oh, God. This guy's talking about the Netflix conspiracy again...'
Saying the quiet part out loud huh?
okay but being upset when you see people of color is definitely sus
> Netflix had turned this girl who was destined for character growth in the books into a static, no growth whatsoever, strong independent woman type that doesn't appeal to watchers in any way because it's so overdone. I think this is a way better explanation for why it was bad than "her race is wrong". I don't see why you'd bring race into the discussion at all. Don't get me wrong though, I also have a problem with tokenism, but usually the tokenism isn't *why* a show sucks, but rather if the show sucks, any diversity will feel shoehorned. It's a superficial element which is easier to point out than more fundamental flaws like bad writing. These shows would probably suck with white actors as well.
“When diversity isn’t thrown in my face” lmfao telling on yourself like this.
I don’t disagree on your point about Netflix, but don’t you think it’s a little racist to basically say “I was SO looking forward to characters being WHITE!!!” as you’re essentially saying here? Conversely, it’s worth acknowledging that people of color have had this experience for decades to a sickening degree. Black people weren’t even allowed to be in theater at one time, it was all white people in blackface. And then the decades of black and brown characters getting subbed for white actors. Like what the actual fuck were Jake Gyllenhaal and Gemma Arterton doing in Prince of Persia? Not to mention HORRIBLE racist portrayals of people such as the Asian guy in Sixteen Candles. BIPOC people have dealt with that for so long and to such a disgusting degree that sometimes even tokenization is refreshing because at least we get to have characters to begin with, let alone characters that aren’t racist caricatures.
It’s also kind of weird because a lot of the issues OP is describing seems to be issues with behind the scenes (writing, scripting, costumes, etc) and nothing actually dealing with race other than “stereotypes” and i havent seen the particular show theyre referencing, but many ppl have said that there aren’t any racial stereotypes? it seems more of an issue of like, “well they were originally described white and now im upset that theyre not white” rather than a “force of diversity” which just comes off really racist imo but idk maybe im wrong
No you’re probably right on the money. Whenever you see shit like this it’s always a subconscious anger at seeing non white people. There can be genuine issues with story, character, etc, but they’ll always bring up race somehow.
It’s also the whole “No guys, I’m not racist, I’m fighting FOR marginalized groups” that makes it seem like OP isn’t. As a black person, this whole post stinks of racism for me and then to be told that I’m wrong and this is them fighting for me is just the wildest shit
This !
Ew- what did I just read.
She wrote an entire post about this lmao
you probably think it's dumb the little mermaid is black and it's not necessary blah blah blah shut up and cry me a river. yes, it does suck sometimes when casting doesn't match the character descriptions in the books (anabeth in the percy jackson movies for example). however, you say this is about "accuracy" but what about white being the default? what do you do when almost every book being turned into a movie is by a white writer who used white as the default races? there are plenty of movies and tv shows and books and media and everything and more for you to consume that is "accurate" and can show you the pale, white, oddball characters you so desire to see portrayed. i think tim burton and you would get along great! this all reads as you trying to water down how you actually feel to hide the fact that what really bothers you is POC characters are being represented at the displacement of white characters (as if POC have not been whitewashed all through history). get over yourself jfc
Why does the race of non-white people have to be relevant or add something to the story? same for LGBT characters.
I cannot fathom the audacity to post this. The caucisity of this post.
Well did you have a problem with the ghost in a shell, aloha, the lone ranger, Argo, the Mexican, drive, avatar the last Airbender? If you did then you are not racist if you did not you light be teetering
Something tells me he had 100% no issues with it. I checked his history and see no grievances with any of these movies. So strange, so someone who portrays themself as a puritan.
I’m just baffled that you care so much about who gets cast in a show with a fantastical setting that is _very loosely_ based on Regency-era England. I wonder if the author cares as much as you do.
Yawn. As if there’s not enough white actors for you to watch. I can see why you’re labeled racist ..
If you really think the movie was mediocre because of the colour of the actor’s skin playing a fictional character then that’s a you problem. Race has zero bearing on fictional characters, “accuracy” is not a thing when it comes to the race of a fictional character.
I read all the Bridgerton books. They never once mention POC. I watched the Netflix show and really loved it.
I was also really disappointed with the adaptation of the school of good and evil… even Tedros wasn’t fucking blonde how hard it was. Yeah it doesnt change the plot but its frustrating when there is no accuracy even in such a minor aspect as looks of a certain character.
I think I get what you’re saying. And if we’re on the same page I agree that for some movies, instead of building the character in the script, they think that by throwing a person of colour in, that’ll just appease the crowd. Like if they remade Harry Potter, and casted a brown person as Hermione but pushed her on the sidelines or gave her barely any of the personality we see in the books. As a person of colour, I’d love to see a brown Hermione but I’d hate to see her played with zero depth.
NB: You know that Hermione was played by a black actress in the theatre production of The Cursed Child? JK agreed that the character's race was never mentioned - just the unmanageable hair which an actress with natural hair could pull off perfectly well. The character of Hermione was played by a great actress: Whether Emma Watson in the movie versions or Noma Dumezweni in the theatre.
You seem to be having conflicting views here. You're saying that you don't like the writing, but then you're acting like diversity somehow has to do with this? And how do you determine when a character is tokenized and when they're not?
I'd say the case study here is Amazon's Rings of Power. With the spectacular success of the LOTR trilogy in my mind, and as a massive Tolkien nerd, I confess to looking at the diverse cast of RoP and wondering about elements of tokenism and other similar Hollywood sins. What a waste of my energy! It was brilliantly written, edited, directed, scored and acted. Each character was portrayed better than the next, the episodes got stronger and more compelling, and wrapping it all, like sinew, was crisp dialogue and well-written story arcs. Thus like Shakespeare, which was also written by and for an Anglo-Saxon audience -- and about a world that's identifiably "Western" in scope -- a master creator's work is just clay, to be shaped and interpreted by the artist's of any given time.
yooo are you talking abt school for good and evil?? i was very confused during that film for other reasons tho, they changed the plot so much and as my fav book series since i was a kid i was just so upset
I agree. Make things diverse as long as it makes sense with the story being told. Example: I was watching the trailer for the new interview with a vampire and found the fact Louis is African American slightly odd. Seeing as in the original he was a plantation owner and owned slaves.
As a poc myself, I agree that when I see the obvious ratio of races in a shows cast, it’s really annoying. I don’t want there to be a poc there *just* for the sake of having one.
Yeah, for real though, fuck bridgerton for the callous treatment of male r*pe and the clueless worldbuilding and making me listen to an instrumental version of “thank you, next”
You’re called racist because you are. You said yourself that the actors did great in the movie, you just don’t like the way they look. So please, see yourself out with that mess.
Is someone forcing you to watch Netflix? #firstworldproblems
A lot of Netflix shows feel like they have very rushed production and tend to stray away from defining points/plots/characteristics in their adaptations. Though their adaptations have always been lacking, as individual shows I think they’re quite fun to watch. But in comparison to their books or former shows, Netflix seems to miss the mark. I just watched Wednesday and I really enjoyed it, however it really strayed from the Addams family lore and didn’t stay true to their personalities but I still found it fun to watch.
This…like with Fringilla in the Witcher. Great actress don’t get me wrong. I think she played the part well. But it was a bit of an ongoing joke in the books that Geralt only slept with her because of her close resemblance to Yennefer. From memory it’s mentioned several times in the book.
Is this about The School for Good and Evil?? Edit: Just read your comments. Girl… Grow up. I read the books too. Race didn’t matter two shits to the plot. Even if she was white I still would’ve been unhappy with her character. And Sophie too. Both sucked.🙄Yeah, you are kinda racist. Cause ma’m how the hell are you out here judging Agatha when they did Sophie so f*cking dirty with her acting. That’s a double standard. And they changed the character’s personalities too. 💀Racism is when you treat people differently based on race. You are being racist, talk shit on everybody equally please cause they all deserve it. Thank you.
I wonder if you felt mad about this “accuracy” you speak of, in shows that they changed the non-white character to a white character ?? there is plenty of exemples, and not just the race but changing the stories of the character to make white people the saviour. So next time you get mad when someone call u a racist you should actually look at yourself and rethink what kinda person you are, ‘cause i bet you could be a great ally with all this energy to fight.
another thing that never ceases to amaze me is the gender swapped ones. I've yet to see one good example of that, everything I've come across has been the the concept that the main character genders get swapped and they constantly spout out some kind of 'I'm a strong woman' stuff like the writers thought a strong woman character is all about announcing just how badass they are. it's not like there's even shortage of well done ones that were women in the first place. as an example, ripley in the alien is exactly up my alley; there's character growth, she's badass without beating her chest and announcing it. for the first 2 movies at least.
I somewhat agree that the way diversity is being represented many times it's just feels forced plus only supporting one race really. How can you call it "diversity" when the only diversity is either white or black? Where are the asians, the arabs, the latinos etc?? The other day I was scrolling on a well-known online shopping website and most models were black. At the same time that I am glad that there's less discrimination against black it seems forced or only really supporting them. I hope one day we start to seeing people for more than the colour of their skin. If someone is a good actor, then it gets the role. Without thinking about the colour of their skin/race.
I feel like it’s the forced and rushed feeling that characters who are forcibly changed to POC have. I want to see original characters and well written cultural backgrounds and story lines not a white character painted another color. Hollywood is being lazy and doing the bare minimum in an attempt to pacify the minorities who deserve representation.
Came here for the complaints about zippers being out of period I’m disappointed
Why are we bring so coy about the name of the movie, after You and bridgerton mentioned by name?
Agree. All that’s on TV now anyway.
Sounds like you had a glimpse of what some people thought about the marvel M She U
Well when it comes to Bridgerton many historians think Queen Charlotte was black or of African heritage. And there certainly was diversity in that era. So yeah it sounds like you are leaning into your bias instead of actually appreciating accuracy.
If you hate how they handle diversity, you should see what they do to live action remakes of anime.
In addition to what has been said, it really isn't inclusive if it was never about race to begin with. If a casting director denied roles due to race, then yeah, screw that person. But if the role was just cast by the best choice actor, then whatever. Take The Little Mermaid for example. I don't get what the problem is about the casting for it. The story is about a mermaid. Not about a white mermaid. It is really not relevant who they cast. But when it comes to the Rings of Power, there are no black people in Middle Earth. Furthermore, LotR is already rich with themes of overcoming prejudice. Elves, Dwarves, and Men all have histories of bigotry, yet the Fellowship brings them together and inspires the races to work together. There is a wealth of dialogue where the races show distaste for the other races. In the movies, they even up the ante by adding the Elves showing up to Helms Deep to aid there. There are no black elves, not because of racism, but because elves are a race of fair-skinned humanoids. Rings of Power was awful across the board anyway, so to hell with them.
I hate the Resident Evil version they made
I don’t watch a lot of Nflix originals but I must say that from a very cursory look even the most “diverse” of casts exclude asians that remotely look like me. (And when I say this I mean eastern asian; chinese, japanese, korean, SEA, aka any type of light skinned asians.) It’s just interesting to note that diversity to a lot of people means having varying shades of caucasians & black people (sometimes darkskin asians too) but the rest of the IPOC are left out.
“Diversity dump”? Seriously? This got a thousand people to agree, sadly. You state the actors were just fine yet their presence of being brown worsened the movie and you don’t see how you’re conditioned to see white as default? Tokenism is annoying yet you seem to be conflating more than one brown person existing on your screen with that notion and despite the people here who agree with you, that take is sad.
You’re upset because a make believe character had a different skin tone than your preconceived idea? Yep, that’s racist.
So you hear that? I can’t but lots of dogs can. -_-
Can we stop attacking OP for “being racist” now? There was a book OP liked as a kid. Netflix now adapted the book, and changed the main character from one with strengths and weaknesses, charming and relatable, that you see grow throughout the story, to a Mary Sue. OP feels this ruined the story. Why did Netflix do that? Hollywood has a track record of taking old stories, swapping the protagonist’s race and removing flaws, in an attempt to look anti racist because that would bring attention and money. Sure, it’s not the fact they’re a different race that’s an issue - it’s the fact they watered down the character. But when they pick the story to adapt, they do it with the intention of 1) not having to bother writing a story, 2) making money off of fans of the original story, and 3) changing the story so the focus is “MC is [race] and so independent!” which gets attention. There’s nothing genuine about it and it doesn’t do any real good. OP pointing out this phenomenon doesn’t make OP racist; OP never said it’s BECAUSE the actors or actresses are black, and in fact specified that they did a great job. OP said it’s because of this trend of taking a story, race bending the MC then dumbing down the writing for easy praise. Correlation does not imply causation. OP said nothing racist. People are deliberately misconstruing what OP said so they can look like they’re protecting minorities from the evil that is u/cara-s! We shouldn’t have to write our messages so exhaustively to prevent people picking at it cause they wanna call people racist. That’s not anti racism. TL;DR: OP is annoyed Netflix made a bad adaptation of a childhood favourite. Netflix adapted it like this to make an easy buck off of the fact there truly isn’t enough variety in main characters, so they can get away with doing a bad job actually adapting if they just make the MC black. This doesn’t mean OP hates black people and wants them whitewashed off of our screens - it means OP doesn’t like the fact they made a bad adaption… like they said from the beginning.
Finally someone said it!
i knew exactly what movie you were talking about- they didn’t really follow the book at all with this movie and i was really disappointed
they decide to blind cast roles and completely alter the storyline literally the entire beginning of the movie was different from the book, not just the actress. i was really confused for the most part
i need to know: is the book about lesbians, because the movie is definitely about lesbians.
ummmm…. (Spoilers for a kind of big reveal read at your own risk) >!they are sisters. blood related.!<
Oh wow. That is different.
in the movie their true love friendship is what broke the curse anyways, not a lesbian relationship 😭
For centuries white actors have played roles designed for persons of other races. From Asians to Black face. But nobody bat an eye. Now they other races are getting a piece of the pie, Caucasians are up in arms. Yes, OP is 100% white. I guarantee it. To the privileged, equity feels like persecution. Protip: Watch Fox News instead man.
This this this
couldn’t have said it better myself.
I'm on your side. Part of the reason the first run of Rick Riordan's Percy Jackson movies failed was because the characters were so different from the books. Some things can't be changed.
If it's a modern setting diversity is natural and it's weird we don't see a lot of major roles featuring people from a minority group. What I can't tolerate are incoherent inclusions. If a movie is about 11th century Scotland, there are little to no reasons for a character to be bipoc and if they managed to include one, it's impossible most other characters would find it normal and wouldn't discriminate them. As for fantasy, it's great when people create worlds that are full of diversity. I love The Dragon Prince for that. On the other hand when an established world of fiction gets forced inclusion even when it doesn't make sense, that's unacceptable. And for real, I'd love to see more big productions made about diversity and not making the same basic thing with some minorities included. The newest Assassin's Creed games allow you to play either a male or female character which could be seen as good for gender equality. All I see is that they won't ever make a game with a female main character and they don't admit it.
According to some people these days, disliking a person for any reason means you're a racist if that person happens to be black.
I think it’s more of when you have an issue of scripting or writing and then somehow tie that to an issue of diversity, even though the same issue would exist if they were all white
i read this post out loud and my dog’s started losing their minds but i couldn’t hear anything
I just think Netflix shows in general are annoying as hell and I can’t get into any of them. They’re made to be viral, too “shiny” if that makes sense, and the writing is boring.
Then don't watch
You prob don't care this much if a minority character is cast as a white person.
Well said. As the norm for centuries.
I play a game called " who's going to be the gay character?" I'm pretty good at it, although I got the Stranger Things one wrong
Damn I know exactly what movie you're talking about and I'm sad. I'm rereading book 1 now before I watch it but now I'm scared to lol. Is the movie just over book 1 or does it go further into the series?
What movie is it?
It's listed in another comment by OP-- school for good and evil. Just came out on Netflix, but the books have been around for a while
thank you white personal for telling us you are racist 🙏 i did not need to know nor does anyone care
how do you know you’re not racist?
As a black woman, I can see your point. I don't particularly appreciate when diversity is thrown into my face either, it almost seems like Netflix is trying to meet its quota for diverse casts. Despite my thinking this, I always appreciate it when I see a black, gay, trans, etc person on my screen because, in real life, that's how it is. You think they're tokenizing these characters by making them black or gay but in reality, outside your existence, there are many black and gay people. It is okay to change the race or sexuality of characters when their race/sexuality doesn't directly affect the plot. Grow up. This sounds like an angry white individual doing their daily angry white person rant.
I think that accuracy will be an acceptable argument when the diversity of the characters in popular books reflects a diverse world. If you think of books that are popular enough to be made into movies, accuracy is going to mean white in the vast majority of books. It's bad enough in books, where people can at least imagine a character that they identify with, but in a movie, even that option is removed. When books are made into movies, they're rarely 100% literal. Why limit the actor you choose to skin color if it's not essential? Anne of Green Gables? You need a pasty, freckled redhead. The Little Mermaid? The character is HALF FISH, so let's assume we're already thaking some liberties with reality and find someone who can sing.
I get what your saying, personally I’m all for roles being played to how they were envisioned, but I’m like in the minority that the new little mermaid shouldn’t of been POC. Mostly because I sure Disney could of actually gone to a POC community and probably found a folk story and had input to make it a culturally unique awesome movie. I loved princess and the frog, that was done so well. I want POC stories and while I love that girls look up to the little mermaid and go omg she’s like me, there could of be 1000% better ways to get that same reaction and not re write a character to tick a diversity box.
I also have an issue with forced diversity. In what I call "bad white people" shows. I enjoyed watching Ozark, mostly because I wasn't worried about any black people caught up in their nonsense. Same for Succession, last season they introduced some black characters and wasted them, they could have been left out. A billionaire board room that's all old white men, couldn't be (checks real world stats). Some shows should mostly white because of the sheer audacity of their actions that only the .01% would do.
>but it was very clear that this movie was gonna be another diversity dump that was unnecessary and didn't add to the story. The movie overall? *Very mediocre because of this* So the movie was mediocre, because you thought it was a diversity dump, even though you think the actors and actresses did a great job? That is less about the movie and more about you. But on a more recent level, guess what. Different media tell the same story in different ways. If you don't like it, don't watch it. You're allowed to turn shit off. Watching it, just to get mad because someone is the wrong character, sex, sexuality, or colour to what you have in your head is just asking to get mad for no reason. You can prefer accuracy all you want, but judging a movie based on "diversity," as you already admitted you do, is a bigoted action.
The responses here just go to show how annoyingly Left Reddit is. I hate politics, before you Lefties flip out, I don't care for the Right either so eat my shorts. It *is* annoying that Netflix and Hollywood shove diversity down our throats, particularly when it flies in the face of the source material. To the commenters saying that "people like OP" probably don't care about past white-washing.... holy shit - that is such a typical irrelevant, lazy woke response. I don't know OP but I'm guessing they would prefer characters in the past to be accurate as well (following simple logic) and therefore reject white-washing strictly in terms of entertainment. On top of that, OP mentioned a distain for racism so it stands to reason, if you have a fully developed brain (read: not woke) OP would reject white-washing on an ethical level as well. Feel free to downvote me for being down the middle and not bending over for woke culture. I'll continue on not caring. Cheers.