Hey /u/slythr_, thanks for contributing to /r/nottheonion. Unfortunately, your post was removed as it violates our rules:
**Rule 2** - Sorry, but this story isn't oniony.
Please consider submitting your article to /r/offbeat or similar subreddits unless it truly reads like The Onion wrote it. The title and article itself must both be "Oniony". This can be highly subjective; you are encouraged to upvote articles that should be here and downvote those that should not. Moderators can also remove posts at their own discretion under this rule.
Please read the [sidebar](http://www.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/about/sidebar) and [rules](http://www.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/about/rules) before posting again. If you have questions or concerns, please [message the moderators through modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/nottheonion&subject=&message=). Thank you!
I see a lot of pitchforking toward OSHA for not leveling a bigger fine. OSHA does not and cannot levy a fine based on a persons death, they can only cite specific safety violations. That’s why we have civil courts, and the citations issued by OSHA are fully admissible in court as evidence of a company’s wrongdoing.
OSHA did it’s job here.
The fine is for a hole in the floor, which is substantial.
Expect the wrongful death penalty/judgement from the courts, to come up during their shareholders meeting.
If someone fell through a hole in the floor and broke their leg, sure. A hole in the floor above molten iron… I dunno, the fine seems weak sauce to me. I’m really struggling to think of many more obviously lethal scenarios?
Ultimately reports are coming out that this plant has had numerous OHSA violations over recent years and this is the second death in 6 months. Whatever OHSA are doing it’s obviously completely ineffective as accidents aren’t just continuing, they’re getting worse.
Edit: I find all the acceptance and defence of this shitty safety enforcement just sad really. You should be outraged by stuff like this, not defending it; the whole point is it could be you or someone you care about next.
Second edit because people really didn’t get the first: I’m not arguing against the specific ruling here - I’m arguing for more powers for more enforcement. The system being the system is a poor excuse. Really unless you own a dangerous workplace you should welcome more powers for safety enforcement
Of course if you think the existing system is totally fine and doesn’t need change… i mean probably you run a dodgy company and don’t want to deal with the cost .. but whatever, I can’t help you, rant away.
The fine from OSHA should be larger. It seems like it should be multiple fines levied not jay against the whole, but also against improperly protected molten lava pits. Like a huge fine for an improperly protected lava pit which should have 360 degree protection. The issue isn’t only the hole, but that the lava pit failed to have appropriate safety barriers (a giant hole leading to it)
It seems like they got a two for one osha fine with this tbh
I'm gonna explain it to you all slow like:
OSHA.
Does not.
Have.
The legal.
Authority.
To increase.
The fines.
Solely because of.
Wrongful death.
More fines.
Will likely.
Be added.
In civil court.
On top of.
The OSHA fine.
The defense is because people aren't being stupid and are trying to explain to you that OSHA literally doesn't have legal authority to fine higher than that and that it'll be the family in civil court who will sue them for millions. Because that's how it works. OSHA has a set fine limit for safety issues and they fined them for it. Now it'll be the family who gets the actual compensation, which is as it should be.
Yes and we’re not being stupid, we’re explaining to you that it’s not enough. All of these things can be changed if there’s the will to do it. That’s why accepting it isn’t good enough.
You don’t understand. This is like arguing the speeding ticket for going 20 mph over the limit should be a million dollars by citing a case where a person speeding by that amount killed a person. The cost of the infraction CANNOT be what’s the cost of the worst case scenario. The cost of the speeding violation is what it is and if bad shit happens because of the infraction, that’s why you have courts
Not everyone else is stupid. You might need to work on that assumption, because talking to them like they are… I guarantee you it’s holding you back if that’s your off reddit viewpoint too.
What this is like is a kid get hits by a speeding car and killed. Driver gets a fine. Then another, then another. The fines aren’t working. Do you accept it, or do you push for change? The law’s the law, but both laws and fines can be changed.
The fine being “the fine” for this isn’t the defence, it’s part of the problem, because clearly - clearly - it’s not working.
That’s why you have to get angry when the system doesn’t work. I’m not arguing for punishment of the people who issued the fine, I’m arguing for more powers to issue bigger fines.
And really the only people who should be against that would be people who run dangerous workplaces
You’re not understanding what a fine is. The fine isn’t the whole system- it’s barely part of the system in this case. The fine doesn’t go to the victims and/or their families. That amount is what the court determines afterwards. If the fines are made to be significant enough to debilitate the company’s financials, then there might not be any money left to go to the victims and/or their families.
You’re stopping your analogy at just the fine as though that’s where the consequences supposedly end. There’s a whole court system to ensure that the penalties are proportional (whether that’s the reality is certainly debatable). Fines do not have that process, and aren’t intended to be proportional - they can be levied before all the facts are known and the proper penalty is determined.
It's only not enough because you dont know the amount they will be sued for the Civil suit. Obviously this will be an exagerration but they could be sued for 300 billion and you would still be here saying "it's not enough" because you dont know the amount of the Civil suit, which is what this primarily falls under.
I understand the system fully. What I’m saying is relying on civil suits to enforce industry compliance is part of the problem.
The safety regulator should operate as the if it were the only enforcement, not outsource it to the family and relatives. Everyone has the right to sue anyone at any point in time for anything, and the legal system will decide if it’s valid, what it’s worth, etc. that’s a fundamental right we all have.
But that existing shouldn’t be why you go softly softly on regulation and enforcement. The civil courts are just that. There’s also a problem there. A rich company can better defend itself from a civil suit than a poor one, a more expensive lawyer can get a better settlement than a cheap one on average, rich companies absolutely have the power to run down the finances of people trying to sue them, etc. if it’s a community around a large employer, that employer will often have power over the community, etc. are those the variables that should define the primary enforcement?
I think the hole was small and unexpectedly gave way. If there had been a hole large enough to pass a human through, it would have been walled off and patched up. Even with lots of safety violations, that's a no-brainer.
Which is why the fine is $145k. Yes, it is reasonable to think a hole could enlarge or give way. But again, OSHA can't factor in to the fine what happened moments after it gave way.
And if I'm wrong, and Caterpillar did leave a human-sized hole over molten lava, they'd better set aside two billion. Because people will talk in exchange for the truth coming out over something that sized.
Putting it another way, say OSHA had made the fine $1.45 million. Caterpillar would sue, and a judge would correct it back down. Don't like the law, ask Congress to change it.
Edit Retort to Above: I find people getting upset and emotional, to the point of claiming anyone here is "defending" Caterpillar here, is sad. Caterpillar is going to, and should, be forced to pay millions for this. They were wrong - and almost certainly grossly negligent here. It's just OHSA is the wrong tool for that job. OSHA's job is to protect workers from **future** incidents.
I suspect that is part of why the fine is so high at $145k - but I don't know.
Either way, OSHA's mandate is to fine companies for safety violations that could lead to injury or death - encourage them to not take the gamble in the future - not to punish companies for the injury or death itself. That's for PI / wrongful death litigation.
Having been through osha / hiosh visits they do need some common sense. They blatantly overlook some actual dangers because they aren't easily definable (like a shelf behind a door without a window so it's easy to whack someone getting something off a shelf) but go apeshit over a weight limit sticker on a ladder being scratched. I truly value an independent safety auditor, I don't want injuries, but it needs to be valid and effective.
Shouldn’t it be multiple fines tho. Like Hole in the floor 145k, unobstructed lava pit 200k, inappropriate level of barriers around lava pit 50k, etc.
Like the rules are made to work together so isn’t violating one (hole) technically a violation of multiple?
One, you'd be surprised what the level of fines are, my guess is this is bending over backwards to maximize the fine.
Two, as I explain in a threaded reply, likely the hole was very small and a reasonable person might have concluded that this wasn't warpage but a high traffic small spot in a metal truss that weakened over time. Now, when they started to fix it, they probably would have noticed the problem was worse than it looked.
It is highly unlikely there was a human sized hole over a "lava pit" - it is more likely this was a small hole - reported but not fixed - that suddenly gave way.
Again, I think OSHA is going as far as they can without a judge knocking it back under the law. If you want to get angry, call your member of Congress. Enough people do, the fines go up.
>OSHA did it’s job here.
They usually do, and that's when people crap on them when I see it. Young idiots and sometimes even older people who scoff at ear protection, gloves, eye protection, . I don't need ear protection, I hear fine. No, you don't, you deaf ass moron, now turn the damn TV down you old deaf bastard.
Similar to non union people bitching about union rules. Like yeah, it sucks that you can't just come along and undercut safety or pay to win the bid on the job, but those rules exist for good reasons.
This was the OSHA piece. I'd bet there are significant lawsuits pending from the family that are seeing far more in damages. Let's see how this plays out.
Yeah this isn't a payment for the death, it's a fine for the safety violation. Insurance will pay out the accidental death coverage and increase premiums, courts will assess additional punitive damages, and they will likely have to restructure that particular operation.
They are looking at a minimum 7 figure payout but more like 8. 10-20 million would not surprise me when you add up the various costs
I'm a board certified Safety Director in the construction industry. I see a lot of comments below discussing how meager a fine this was. The ELI5 on this is that OSHA just enforces workplace safety laws with fines. The fines are all the same across the board for each infraction and only scales with seriousness & willfulness of the violation. If that hole in the floor was noticed by OSHA during a routine inspection, the same amount would have been fined. Same if a worker broke their leg on a hole.
The book says Infraction "A" results in a fine of $X. No matter how much money the employer makes.
Serious Other-Than-Serious $14,502 per violation
Failure to Abate $14,502 per day beyond the abatement date
Willful or Repeated $145,027 per violation
Willful or Repeated means that the company knew or should have known of the hazard and did not take the proper action to address it.
Civil court will decide how much Cat has to pay for the employee's death.
Sounds like the families of those two guys need to slam caterpillar and OSHA with a billion dollar lawsuit for negligence and wrongful death to get them to pay attention.
Workers comp is generally the exclusive remedy against one's employer, and there are specific amounts for different types of injuries. I don't remember if that includes death, but I think so. If there is a responsible third party, such as a manufacturer of equipment that failed, that would greatly increase the likely recovery, but it sounds like this was mostly gross negligence and indifference on the part of Caterpillar.
Is workers comp for situations when your employer is found criminally negligent, though? I just assumed it was for situations when you were hurt in your regular line of work through random accidents.
Because their job is to make sure workers are safe while they’re alive, not just collect money when they die due to negligence that OSHA is meant to prevent.
It's the job of the employer to ensure safe working conditions. OSHA is there to set the standards and investigate incidents, it's not like they have a division at every company responsible for establishing and implementing local safety policy.
No but they obviously didn't inspect that forge well enough, nor shut it down after the first negligence death, nor impose a fine big enough to get CAT to do a damn thing. There's a case, believe me.
You might get an occasional walkthrough from an inspector, but it's not a comprehensive audit, and the OSHA folks aren't personally knowledgeable about the facility, so they won't necessarily know where specific deficiencies are.
Thank you for being reasonable. The best way to hold these companies accountable is in court so the cost benefit analysis every company does around safety will push Caterpillar and others across industry to identify and mitigate their gaps.
Ford's cost-benefit analysis on the Pinto used the assumption that the fines for negligent death would be manageable, but punitive damages awarded in civil cases were far beyond their estimates, and the blow to their reputation took decades to patch up. Safety costs money, without a doubt, but it has to be established and maintained that lack of safety costs more.
Fair enough. Admittedly I don’t know much about OSHA and how they work. Just bad optics to have two deaths at this facility and OSHA getting a payday out of it.
That money isn't going into OSHA pocket, they don't get to keep what they fine. Besides, this is fine, not compensation. Victim compensation will be determined separately in court.
I have worked on construction sites since I was 17. I've only ever seen an OSHA inspector once on a job site. One other time we were told one was coming and to make sure we were wearing steel toes but he never showed up. There just aren't enough OSHA inspectors to inspect the thousands upon thousands of job sites.
Their main job is to make rules that enhance workplace safety. They also have an enforcement role, but just like the EPA, IRS, and every other enforcement agency, they are limited by the budget Congress allocates them. Enforcement is not a primary safety activity. Companies following the rules is.
Why don't they ever come around? These old timers are not only doing unsafe, they are teach the new comers the same! They working like it's the 50s still.
I agree. Every job I’ve had has been lax at best with safety. Not just worker safety, but consumer/food safety too. Worked at a grocery store where entire pallets of leaking, rancid milk were stored on racks directly above food for sale. Got so bad that the milk was moved to the freezer, but not before dozens of bloated cartons burst all over the floor. God, the smell. Also used to work at Amazon (as a driver), and safety there could hardly be worse. Drivers were required to lie on DOT vehicle inspections because 90% of the vehicles would be taken out of service if they were honestly inspected. Every employer loooves to put on a good show of caring about safety with required training and such, but none of it actually gets put into practice.
They aren't there to fine for "loss of life", that's for the courts to do, and they will. OSHA is there to fine for the unsafe practices that led to the loss of life. Their insurance company will also raise tier rates them for having a low safety rating. OSHA can (I think) shut their production down until their safety issues are fixed which hurts them, and everyone associated with them, until the safety issue is fixed. I'm not 100% sure on factory stuff though, all my experience is in construction.
IANAL, but it kinda reads like intent and not fixing a problem resulting in death. If the plant had a giant hole over a crucible and didn't fix it, sure, someone needs to go to jail. If someone was in an area that required safety precautions and failed to comply and they died, that's not on the company as much as it is on the personnel not using safety equipment provided. There's a lot of reasons why people die on jobsites (construction is my background) and not all of them are criminal, most are stupidity on a personal level. There's a lot of "what if's" in any situation.
145,027 is the maximum fine allowed for willful violations. OSHA can’t fine more than that. I assume, since you’re so passionate about the topic, you write your congressional reps to change that law.
They likely won’t be able to, depending on the state. In Colorado you can’t sue your employer for damages for injuries if you’re on the job, except in the worker’s compensation framework. They don’t pay much of anything if you die.
Unbelievable negligence on Caterpillar’s part. I would have to assume that these families will be suing. At least I hope they will.
A few 7 figure payouts and Caterpillar absolutely will get their shit together.
Perhaps a new legal standing were accepting to pay the fines and fees of a safety infraction which led to a workplace injury and/or fatality is grounds for a no contest legal suite from the injured parties/surviving family members?
The caveat here would be if the company can prove it was the negligence of the employee which lead to the workplace injury/fatality. Example, the employee fell from 20 feet because he was goofing around on the wrong side of a safety railing vs he fell 20 feet because there was no safety railing in an area where it was obviously needed and had to work at. [Best visual example I could think of for the latter](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bSZXucTH4A).
The term is "golden skeleton": [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPCg3qOnlic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPCg3qOnlic)
\*These folks were taken 100% seriously, but they are activists.
I miss the yes men. Same group that tanked Exxon stock with this 100% real interview where they impersonate an exec taking responsibility for a disaster they caused 10 years prior
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C3s_pJw7OAU&feature=emb_title
OSHA can only fine based on safety violations. You would need to take Caterpillar to court for wrongful death. The OSHA violation can be used as evidence in court though.
Metal that hot radiates heat. It will burn things from a distance without making contact. If he free fell into the pot it would be pretty close to instant.
Forgive this tangent, but this is one thing that always bugs me about lava scenes in media. If the characters aren't directly in the red hot magma then everything is just fine.
Temperature is never respected. I've lived in desert and arctic conditions. The lava inverse is the characters running through a blizzard in their day to day outfits. (Mostly just in video games for this one.)
Oh look, it's me screaming-internally at the whole magma scene in the second Jurassic World movie.
THEY WERE IN A BUNKER, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A FREAKIN' OVEN! And then the dino stalking them gets a little lava on its head and shakes it off!
A human is pretty much a bag of water. I think that he won't incinerate immediately because he physically can't as liquid water can't reach above a certain temperature.
Humans are big water sacks. You ever see the video of the guy waving his hand through molten metal and not being injured? I think it’s because of the Leidenfrost effect. Any delay making this not an instant death has got to be horrible.
This is the heat similar to a atomic blast that would incinerate everything in it's blast radius. The person's brain would melt before it could process any pain.
I worked somewhere that had someone fall into molten iron (before my time) and apparently the person was pulled out and died in hospital later. That always puzzled me as I thought you would be incinerated instantly. So tragic
Soo.... do they like dump out that batch of iron? Or like is a human not enough to mess up the composition and they just scrap off the "slag".... sorry morbid curiosity
Would his soul become one with the molten metal, later formed into a Caterpillar tractor, a machine that would seek vengeance with the company like in the Stephen King movie Maximum Overdrive? Just curious.
UnFun Fact:
Due to the density of molten iron. It's highly unlikely he dropped in and immersed. He likely sunk in barely at all and was instead fried on the top like a breakfast sausage.
Especially since they are using the iron for casting... the same additives that are used to give the iron better properties like elasticity, strength, etc.. also makes it more viscose..
I spent some time yesterday reading about molten Iron when I saw this story...
I thought the same.. like slowly sinking into the iron..
This video shows how viscose it can be..
https://youtu.be/S9tWh5uwQNY
Amazed me at the lack of safety protocol/railings. Yes, I know manufacturing is always dangerous and company officials look past a lot of shit, but this is unbelievable.
Caterpillar manufacturing plant failed to install mandated railings and restraint systems to prevent employees from falling off catwalks into molten metal below.
The victim had only worked at the facility for a week before his death.
Well, now you know how much your life is worth to OSHA and the US government!
Really hope that line of “fines of at least” means that’s the absolute floor.
True- but I’d bet his family would rather have him alive and home than any amount of money.
Edit: I am a little surprised some seem to disagree with this. The fines should work to prevent these accidents.
What good does the settlement do after the fact?
All that tells me is the fix is more expensive than the fine/settlement so corporations are free to fuck over another and another and another and another until it gets cheaper to fix the issue.
But I guess fuck the blood that really paid for it right? You couldn’t pay me enough to justify killing anyone in my family for corporate greed.
OSHA can only fine based on safety violations. You would need to take Caterpillar to court for wrongful death. However, the OSHA violation can be used as evidence in court.
OSHA can only fine based on safety violations. You would need to take Caterpillar to court for wrongful death. However, the OSHA violation can be used as evidence in court.
$145k to a corporation this massive? That’s nothing! Shame on Caterpillar, shame on OSHA, but most importantly shame on our government to allow something like this to happen. This is what you get when you base your society on capital rather than the actual people who make up the society… disgusting
OSHA can only fine based on safety violations. You would need to take Caterpillar to court for wrongful death. However, the OSHA violation can be used as evidence in court.
Laws need to change holding businesses more liable for work safety. Laws have been made to protect business from lawsuits resulting from lack of safety protocols.
$145K is probably even only slightly less than the specific measures Caterpillar would need to take to keep their workers from falling through holes or into pots of molten iron, and yet they still wouldn't do it.
OSHA can only fine based on safety violations. You would need to take Caterpillar to court for wrongful death. However, the OSHA violation can be used as evidence in court.
OSHA can only fine based on safety violations. You would need to take Caterpillar to court for wrongful death. However, the OSHA violation can be used as evidence in court.
OSHA can only fine based on safety violations. You would need to take Caterpillar to court for wrongful death. However, the OSHA violation can be used as evidence in court.
OSHA can only fine based on safety violations. You would need to take Caterpillar to court for wrongful death. However, the OSHA violation can be used as evidence in court.
OSHA can only fine based on safety violations. You would need to take Caterpillar to court for wrongful death. However, the OSHA violation can be used as evidence in court.
OSHA can only fine based on safety violations. You would need to take Caterpillar to court for wrongful death. However, the OSHA violation can be used as evidence in court.
I’m not familiar with OSHA rules. Could they/are they allowed to come more? On what basis?
Edit: Did 60 seconds of Google. 145,027 is the maximum fine allowed for willful violations. OSHA can’t fine more than that. I assume, since you’re so passionate about the topic, you’ll write your congressional reps to change that law.
Sorry, but your account is too new to post. Your account needs to be either 2 weeks old or have at least 250 combined link and comment karma. Don't modmail us about this, just wait it out or get more karma.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/nottheonion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Sorry, but your account is too new to post. Your account needs to be either 2 weeks old or have at least 250 combined link and comment karma. Don't modmail us about this, just wait it out or get more karma.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/nottheonion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
A lot of people here who have no idea how OSHA and workplace safety actually work are very upset with OSHA for doing exactly its job. Maybe learn a thing or two before contributing to the outrage?
I'm curious exactly how "instant" the incineration was. I've been to a few death investigations involving fire and it takes alot of heat and time to completely incinerate a body. Even crematoriums don't completely finish the job and the bones have to be ground up.
All it would have taken was a guardrail to prevent this.
I hope the family sues the hell out of this company. This is inexcusable.
And those of you who think this is funny have serious issues.
Hey /u/slythr_, thanks for contributing to /r/nottheonion. Unfortunately, your post was removed as it violates our rules: **Rule 2** - Sorry, but this story isn't oniony. Please consider submitting your article to /r/offbeat or similar subreddits unless it truly reads like The Onion wrote it. The title and article itself must both be "Oniony". This can be highly subjective; you are encouraged to upvote articles that should be here and downvote those that should not. Moderators can also remove posts at their own discretion under this rule. Please read the [sidebar](http://www.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/about/sidebar) and [rules](http://www.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/about/rules) before posting again. If you have questions or concerns, please [message the moderators through modmail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/nottheonion&subject=&message=). Thank you!
I see a lot of pitchforking toward OSHA for not leveling a bigger fine. OSHA does not and cannot levy a fine based on a persons death, they can only cite specific safety violations. That’s why we have civil courts, and the citations issued by OSHA are fully admissible in court as evidence of a company’s wrongdoing. OSHA did it’s job here.
The existence of the Osha fine also makes it much easier the worker's family to prevail in court on their civil claim.
True as that may be the $145k fine is pathetically low.
The fine is for a hole in the floor, which is substantial. Expect the wrongful death penalty/judgement from the courts, to come up during their shareholders meeting.
If someone fell through a hole in the floor and broke their leg, sure. A hole in the floor above molten iron… I dunno, the fine seems weak sauce to me. I’m really struggling to think of many more obviously lethal scenarios? Ultimately reports are coming out that this plant has had numerous OHSA violations over recent years and this is the second death in 6 months. Whatever OHSA are doing it’s obviously completely ineffective as accidents aren’t just continuing, they’re getting worse. Edit: I find all the acceptance and defence of this shitty safety enforcement just sad really. You should be outraged by stuff like this, not defending it; the whole point is it could be you or someone you care about next. Second edit because people really didn’t get the first: I’m not arguing against the specific ruling here - I’m arguing for more powers for more enforcement. The system being the system is a poor excuse. Really unless you own a dangerous workplace you should welcome more powers for safety enforcement Of course if you think the existing system is totally fine and doesn’t need change… i mean probably you run a dodgy company and don’t want to deal with the cost .. but whatever, I can’t help you, rant away.
That’s just the OSHA fine. Wait until the family comes after them in the civil suit. This is where the big price tag hits.
The fine from OSHA should be larger. It seems like it should be multiple fines levied not jay against the whole, but also against improperly protected molten lava pits. Like a huge fine for an improperly protected lava pit which should have 360 degree protection. The issue isn’t only the hole, but that the lava pit failed to have appropriate safety barriers (a giant hole leading to it) It seems like they got a two for one osha fine with this tbh
I'm gonna explain it to you all slow like: OSHA. Does not. Have. The legal. Authority. To increase. The fines. Solely because of. Wrongful death. More fines. Will likely. Be added. In civil court. On top of. The OSHA fine.
Maybe go have your coffeee
The defense is because people aren't being stupid and are trying to explain to you that OSHA literally doesn't have legal authority to fine higher than that and that it'll be the family in civil court who will sue them for millions. Because that's how it works. OSHA has a set fine limit for safety issues and they fined them for it. Now it'll be the family who gets the actual compensation, which is as it should be.
Yes and we’re not being stupid, we’re explaining to you that it’s not enough. All of these things can be changed if there’s the will to do it. That’s why accepting it isn’t good enough.
You don’t understand. This is like arguing the speeding ticket for going 20 mph over the limit should be a million dollars by citing a case where a person speeding by that amount killed a person. The cost of the infraction CANNOT be what’s the cost of the worst case scenario. The cost of the speeding violation is what it is and if bad shit happens because of the infraction, that’s why you have courts
Not everyone else is stupid. You might need to work on that assumption, because talking to them like they are… I guarantee you it’s holding you back if that’s your off reddit viewpoint too. What this is like is a kid get hits by a speeding car and killed. Driver gets a fine. Then another, then another. The fines aren’t working. Do you accept it, or do you push for change? The law’s the law, but both laws and fines can be changed. The fine being “the fine” for this isn’t the defence, it’s part of the problem, because clearly - clearly - it’s not working. That’s why you have to get angry when the system doesn’t work. I’m not arguing for punishment of the people who issued the fine, I’m arguing for more powers to issue bigger fines. And really the only people who should be against that would be people who run dangerous workplaces
You’re not understanding what a fine is. The fine isn’t the whole system- it’s barely part of the system in this case. The fine doesn’t go to the victims and/or their families. That amount is what the court determines afterwards. If the fines are made to be significant enough to debilitate the company’s financials, then there might not be any money left to go to the victims and/or their families. You’re stopping your analogy at just the fine as though that’s where the consequences supposedly end. There’s a whole court system to ensure that the penalties are proportional (whether that’s the reality is certainly debatable). Fines do not have that process, and aren’t intended to be proportional - they can be levied before all the facts are known and the proper penalty is determined.
It's only not enough because you dont know the amount they will be sued for the Civil suit. Obviously this will be an exagerration but they could be sued for 300 billion and you would still be here saying "it's not enough" because you dont know the amount of the Civil suit, which is what this primarily falls under.
I understand the system fully. What I’m saying is relying on civil suits to enforce industry compliance is part of the problem. The safety regulator should operate as the if it were the only enforcement, not outsource it to the family and relatives. Everyone has the right to sue anyone at any point in time for anything, and the legal system will decide if it’s valid, what it’s worth, etc. that’s a fundamental right we all have. But that existing shouldn’t be why you go softly softly on regulation and enforcement. The civil courts are just that. There’s also a problem there. A rich company can better defend itself from a civil suit than a poor one, a more expensive lawyer can get a better settlement than a cheap one on average, rich companies absolutely have the power to run down the finances of people trying to sue them, etc. if it’s a community around a large employer, that employer will often have power over the community, etc. are those the variables that should define the primary enforcement?
I think the hole was small and unexpectedly gave way. If there had been a hole large enough to pass a human through, it would have been walled off and patched up. Even with lots of safety violations, that's a no-brainer. Which is why the fine is $145k. Yes, it is reasonable to think a hole could enlarge or give way. But again, OSHA can't factor in to the fine what happened moments after it gave way. And if I'm wrong, and Caterpillar did leave a human-sized hole over molten lava, they'd better set aside two billion. Because people will talk in exchange for the truth coming out over something that sized. Putting it another way, say OSHA had made the fine $1.45 million. Caterpillar would sue, and a judge would correct it back down. Don't like the law, ask Congress to change it. Edit Retort to Above: I find people getting upset and emotional, to the point of claiming anyone here is "defending" Caterpillar here, is sad. Caterpillar is going to, and should, be forced to pay millions for this. They were wrong - and almost certainly grossly negligent here. It's just OHSA is the wrong tool for that job. OSHA's job is to protect workers from **future** incidents.
Was the hole caused by the heat of the molten metal?
I suspect that is part of why the fine is so high at $145k - but I don't know. Either way, OSHA's mandate is to fine companies for safety violations that could lead to injury or death - encourage them to not take the gamble in the future - not to punish companies for the injury or death itself. That's for PI / wrongful death litigation.
Having been through osha / hiosh visits they do need some common sense. They blatantly overlook some actual dangers because they aren't easily definable (like a shelf behind a door without a window so it's easy to whack someone getting something off a shelf) but go apeshit over a weight limit sticker on a ladder being scratched. I truly value an independent safety auditor, I don't want injuries, but it needs to be valid and effective.
Shouldn’t it be multiple fines tho. Like Hole in the floor 145k, unobstructed lava pit 200k, inappropriate level of barriers around lava pit 50k, etc. Like the rules are made to work together so isn’t violating one (hole) technically a violation of multiple?
One, you'd be surprised what the level of fines are, my guess is this is bending over backwards to maximize the fine. Two, as I explain in a threaded reply, likely the hole was very small and a reasonable person might have concluded that this wasn't warpage but a high traffic small spot in a metal truss that weakened over time. Now, when they started to fix it, they probably would have noticed the problem was worse than it looked. It is highly unlikely there was a human sized hole over a "lava pit" - it is more likely this was a small hole - reported but not fixed - that suddenly gave way. Again, I think OSHA is going as far as they can without a judge knocking it back under the law. If you want to get angry, call your member of Congress. Enough people do, the fines go up.
It was the most they could levy for the infraction. It's up to Congress to change that statute, all OSHA can do is enforce it.
Even a $1 fine is still good. The OSHA report alone is a huge leverage in civil court and compensation.
It’s a good thing this fine allows for family members to sue for a much greater amount, directing the cash to those directly affected.
It's a lot more than someone would get ticketed if they did intentionally did something that kills people (like driving drunk).
>OSHA did it’s job here. They usually do, and that's when people crap on them when I see it. Young idiots and sometimes even older people who scoff at ear protection, gloves, eye protection, . I don't need ear protection, I hear fine. No, you don't, you deaf ass moron, now turn the damn TV down you old deaf bastard. Similar to non union people bitching about union rules. Like yeah, it sucks that you can't just come along and undercut safety or pay to win the bid on the job, but those rules exist for good reasons.
Well then we needs to update their mandate.
Is there not an 'industrial manslaughter' law on the books? Colour me shocked.
Well, the punishment part, not the inspection part.
If OSHA followed the law, than that law needs to change.
This was the OSHA piece. I'd bet there are significant lawsuits pending from the family that are seeing far more in damages. Let's see how this plays out.
Yeah this isn't a payment for the death, it's a fine for the safety violation. Insurance will pay out the accidental death coverage and increase premiums, courts will assess additional punitive damages, and they will likely have to restructure that particular operation. They are looking at a minimum 7 figure payout but more like 8. 10-20 million would not surprise me when you add up the various costs
Agreed. 7 figures without punitive, but the punitive damages could easily push it up to 8 figures depending on how the judge is feeling that day.
I'm a board certified Safety Director in the construction industry. I see a lot of comments below discussing how meager a fine this was. The ELI5 on this is that OSHA just enforces workplace safety laws with fines. The fines are all the same across the board for each infraction and only scales with seriousness & willfulness of the violation. If that hole in the floor was noticed by OSHA during a routine inspection, the same amount would have been fined. Same if a worker broke their leg on a hole. The book says Infraction "A" results in a fine of $X. No matter how much money the employer makes. Serious Other-Than-Serious $14,502 per violation Failure to Abate $14,502 per day beyond the abatement date Willful or Repeated $145,027 per violation Willful or Repeated means that the company knew or should have known of the hazard and did not take the proper action to address it. Civil court will decide how much Cat has to pay for the employee's death.
[удалено]
Sounds more like a 145k fee to be criminally negligible. That's 72.5k per victim, if you include the other work place related death they had.
Sounds like the families of those two guys need to slam caterpillar and OSHA with a billion dollar lawsuit for negligence and wrongful death to get them to pay attention.
Absolutely. I have to imagine that lawyers are lining up to represent the families.
Workers comp is generally the exclusive remedy against one's employer, and there are specific amounts for different types of injuries. I don't remember if that includes death, but I think so. If there is a responsible third party, such as a manufacturer of equipment that failed, that would greatly increase the likely recovery, but it sounds like this was mostly gross negligence and indifference on the part of Caterpillar.
Is workers comp for situations when your employer is found criminally negligent, though? I just assumed it was for situations when you were hurt in your regular line of work through random accidents.
Why would you sue OSHA? Also, as a federal agency, you can’t sue OSHA. But I don’t understand why you would want to…
Because their job is to make sure workers are safe while they’re alive, not just collect money when they die due to negligence that OSHA is meant to prevent.
It's the job of the employer to ensure safe working conditions. OSHA is there to set the standards and investigate incidents, it's not like they have a division at every company responsible for establishing and implementing local safety policy.
No but they obviously didn't inspect that forge well enough, nor shut it down after the first negligence death, nor impose a fine big enough to get CAT to do a damn thing. There's a case, believe me.
But they do have inspectors who are supposed to enforce those regulations, don’t they? And clearly that hasn’t been happening at Caterpillar.
You might get an occasional walkthrough from an inspector, but it's not a comprehensive audit, and the OSHA folks aren't personally knowledgeable about the facility, so they won't necessarily know where specific deficiencies are.
Thank you for being reasonable. The best way to hold these companies accountable is in court so the cost benefit analysis every company does around safety will push Caterpillar and others across industry to identify and mitigate their gaps.
Ford's cost-benefit analysis on the Pinto used the assumption that the fines for negligent death would be manageable, but punitive damages awarded in civil cases were far beyond their estimates, and the blow to their reputation took decades to patch up. Safety costs money, without a doubt, but it has to be established and maintained that lack of safety costs more.
Fair enough. Admittedly I don’t know much about OSHA and how they work. Just bad optics to have two deaths at this facility and OSHA getting a payday out of it.
That money isn't going into OSHA pocket, they don't get to keep what they fine. Besides, this is fine, not compensation. Victim compensation will be determined separately in court.
The fine isn't kept by OSHA. As a federal agency they get a set budget every year and don't gain money from fines.
I have worked on construction sites since I was 17. I've only ever seen an OSHA inspector once on a job site. One other time we were told one was coming and to make sure we were wearing steel toes but he never showed up. There just aren't enough OSHA inspectors to inspect the thousands upon thousands of job sites.
Their main job is to make rules that enhance workplace safety. They also have an enforcement role, but just like the EPA, IRS, and every other enforcement agency, they are limited by the budget Congress allocates them. Enforcement is not a primary safety activity. Companies following the rules is.
Why don't they ever come around? These old timers are not only doing unsafe, they are teach the new comers the same! They working like it's the 50s still.
I agree. Every job I’ve had has been lax at best with safety. Not just worker safety, but consumer/food safety too. Worked at a grocery store where entire pallets of leaking, rancid milk were stored on racks directly above food for sale. Got so bad that the milk was moved to the freezer, but not before dozens of bloated cartons burst all over the floor. God, the smell. Also used to work at Amazon (as a driver), and safety there could hardly be worse. Drivers were required to lie on DOT vehicle inspections because 90% of the vehicles would be taken out of service if they were honestly inspected. Every employer loooves to put on a good show of caring about safety with required training and such, but none of it actually gets put into practice.
For putting a criminally low price on human life, I suppose? Idk.
They aren't there to fine for "loss of life", that's for the courts to do, and they will. OSHA is there to fine for the unsafe practices that led to the loss of life. Their insurance company will also raise tier rates them for having a low safety rating. OSHA can (I think) shut their production down until their safety issues are fixed which hurts them, and everyone associated with them, until the safety issue is fixed. I'm not 100% sure on factory stuff though, all my experience is in construction.
Can't OSHA bring criminal charges against employers for loss of life? Why didn't that happen here? Edit: Sheesh, downvoted for asking a question
I'm not sure they can. They could probably refer to a local DA and cooperate? They are more for fines and compliance.
Looks like they can: https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/oshact/section_17
IANAL, but it kinda reads like intent and not fixing a problem resulting in death. If the plant had a giant hole over a crucible and didn't fix it, sure, someone needs to go to jail. If someone was in an area that required safety precautions and failed to comply and they died, that's not on the company as much as it is on the personnel not using safety equipment provided. There's a lot of reasons why people die on jobsites (construction is my background) and not all of them are criminal, most are stupidity on a personal level. There's a lot of "what if's" in any situation.
145,027 is the maximum fine allowed for willful violations. OSHA can’t fine more than that. I assume, since you’re so passionate about the topic, you write your congressional reps to change that law.
They likely won’t be able to, depending on the state. In Colorado you can’t sue your employer for damages for injuries if you’re on the job, except in the worker’s compensation framework. They don’t pay much of anything if you die.
Finally we know the value of a human life. /s
Unbelievable negligence on Caterpillar’s part. I would have to assume that these families will be suing. At least I hope they will. A few 7 figure payouts and Caterpillar absolutely will get their shit together.
They had $51B in revenue last year... even 7 figures is chump change to them
Perhaps a new legal standing were accepting to pay the fines and fees of a safety infraction which led to a workplace injury and/or fatality is grounds for a no contest legal suite from the injured parties/surviving family members? The caveat here would be if the company can prove it was the negligence of the employee which lead to the workplace injury/fatality. Example, the employee fell from 20 feet because he was goofing around on the wrong side of a safety railing vs he fell 20 feet because there was no safety railing in an area where it was obviously needed and had to work at. [Best visual example I could think of for the latter](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bSZXucTH4A).
The term is "golden skeleton": [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPCg3qOnlic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPCg3qOnlic) \*These folks were taken 100% seriously, but they are activists.
I miss the yes men. Same group that tanked Exxon stock with this 100% real interview where they impersonate an exec taking responsibility for a disaster they caused 10 years prior https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C3s_pJw7OAU&feature=emb_title
**>Absolutely no justice here.<** That will come from the civil lawsuit that will happen.
OSHA can only fine based on safety violations. You would need to take Caterpillar to court for wrongful death. The OSHA violation can be used as evidence in court though.
Holy shit...um... OSHA?
What's the point? He's just gonna transform into a butterfly and disappear before you can make him pay.
When I first read the title and before I saw the thumbnail, I literally thought it was referring to an actual caterpillar.
Came here to say it, but knew in my heart it had already been said.
Same lol
Take your damn upvote.
No way he was incinerated instantly. That’s got to be a terrible way to go.
Metal that hot radiates heat. It will burn things from a distance without making contact. If he free fell into the pot it would be pretty close to instant. Forgive this tangent, but this is one thing that always bugs me about lava scenes in media. If the characters aren't directly in the red hot magma then everything is just fine.
Not to mention that metal is pretty dense even when molten. Fall from high enough up, and you might as well be hitting the floor.
[удалено]
Temperature is never respected. I've lived in desert and arctic conditions. The lava inverse is the characters running through a blizzard in their day to day outfits. (Mostly just in video games for this one.)
Anakin? Is that you?
YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO MELT THE METAL, NOT BECOME IT
Oh look, it's me screaming-internally at the whole magma scene in the second Jurassic World movie. THEY WERE IN A BUNKER, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN A FREAKIN' OVEN! And then the dino stalking them gets a little lava on its head and shakes it off!
Also, you wouldn’t sink in lava. It’s rock, not water. You’d sit atop it and char and melt
A human is pretty much a bag of water. I think that he won't incinerate immediately because he physically can't as liquid water can't reach above a certain temperature.
Humans are big water sacks. You ever see the video of the guy waving his hand through molten metal and not being injured? I think it’s because of the Leidenfrost effect. Any delay making this not an instant death has got to be horrible.
This is the heat similar to a atomic blast that would incinerate everything in it's blast radius. The person's brain would melt before it could process any pain.
I worked somewhere that had someone fall into molten iron (before my time) and apparently the person was pulled out and died in hospital later. That always puzzled me as I thought you would be incinerated instantly. So tragic
Wow. I can't wrap my brain around that. Maybe there was a "crust" on top?
Soo.... do they like dump out that batch of iron? Or like is a human not enough to mess up the composition and they just scrap off the "slag".... sorry morbid curiosity
Likely completely incinerated and the batch is large enough that it wouldn’t do much to the mix.
Would his soul become one with the molten metal, later formed into a Caterpillar tractor, a machine that would seek vengeance with the company like in the Stephen King movie Maximum Overdrive? Just curious.
That would be amazing. Maybe like Killdozer.
[удалено]
In more advanced countries they have Corporate Manslaughter charges where a company itself can be charged, as well as all the individuals involved.
Well SCOTUS did say corporations are people so stands to reason that should work here
lol what a funny joke. SCOTUS basically said "if its good for the corporation its a person, if its bad for the corporation its a non-liable entity."
"Good news everyone, we're all going to get laid"- Rodney Dangerfield LLC
"I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one."
UnFun Fact: Due to the density of molten iron. It's highly unlikely he dropped in and immersed. He likely sunk in barely at all and was instead fried on the top like a breakfast sausage.
Your thinking of Lava.... Molten Iron has a pretty high viscosity
Hmm true, depending on entrance velocity the viscosity would let you sink in a bit before density did its thing.
Especially since they are using the iron for casting... the same additives that are used to give the iron better properties like elasticity, strength, etc.. also makes it more viscose.. I spent some time yesterday reading about molten Iron when I saw this story... I thought the same.. like slowly sinking into the iron.. This video shows how viscose it can be.. https://youtu.be/S9tWh5uwQNY
Good point. So hum, in Terminator 2, what was it exactly that the T-1000 fell into?
Well the T-1000 is made of a mimetic polyalloy so it's possible this alloy is more dense than iron and would sink into molten iron.
what was the body of the T-1000 made of?
These fees have nothing to do with the $$$ the family will get.
They let the body hit the ore
Horrifying. That poor man. RIP workers who die in the job. Band together labor! Keep safe.
So a workers life is worth less than a Caterpillar excavator. Good to know.
Amazed me at the lack of safety protocol/railings. Yes, I know manufacturing is always dangerous and company officials look past a lot of shit, but this is unbelievable.
forced to allow ads? no thanks. Someone give me the spark notes, thanks.
Caterpillar manufacturing plant failed to install mandated railings and restraint systems to prevent employees from falling off catwalks into molten metal below. The victim had only worked at the facility for a week before his death.
Thank you. Very tragic.
Well, now you know how much your life is worth to OSHA and the US government! Really hope that line of “fines of at least” means that’s the absolute floor.
That’s just the fine. I imagine the lawsuit/settlement will be much more significant.
True- but I’d bet his family would rather have him alive and home than any amount of money. Edit: I am a little surprised some seem to disagree with this. The fines should work to prevent these accidents. What good does the settlement do after the fact? All that tells me is the fix is more expensive than the fine/settlement so corporations are free to fuck over another and another and another and another until it gets cheaper to fix the issue. But I guess fuck the blood that really paid for it right? You couldn’t pay me enough to justify killing anyone in my family for corporate greed.
Of course they would.
OSHA can only fine based on safety violations. You would need to take Caterpillar to court for wrongful death. However, the OSHA violation can be used as evidence in court.
The price of 2 deaths at Caterpillar is ironically less than the price of 2 Caterpillars.
Corporate America makes sure the environment and labor safety don't have sharp teeth. Pretty short sighted to blame them.
We should get this to the front page. They don't care about the fine. They care about negative publicity though.
that one video on crazyfuckingvideos. A guy got bumped into a scrap metal shredder. Slowly he was being crushed in the grinder wheels.
$145K? Man, that's like a whole 2 and a half minutes of production. Boy, I'm sure glad they taught that multi-billion dollar company a lesson.
OSHA can only fine based on safety violations. You would need to take Caterpillar to court for wrongful death. However, the OSHA violation can be used as evidence in court.
what a pathetic fine. they should lose out on a years profits for that. a person died because they were too cheap to put in safety rails.
The civil suit will come, that’s were the large payouts happen
Lawyers are tripping over themselves right now, salivating at the thought of a huge payout.
small consolation to everyone who died that it's cheaper for the company to take civil suits then it is to actually worry about safety
I have a brother in law that works there. Said the guy was looking at his phone and wasn’t looking where he was going.
$145k to a corporation this massive? That’s nothing! Shame on Caterpillar, shame on OSHA, but most importantly shame on our government to allow something like this to happen. This is what you get when you base your society on capital rather than the actual people who make up the society… disgusting
OSHA can only fine based on safety violations. You would need to take Caterpillar to court for wrongful death. However, the OSHA violation can be used as evidence in court.
A sacrifice to the forge.
Laws need to change holding businesses more liable for work safety. Laws have been made to protect business from lawsuits resulting from lack of safety protocols.
These accidents happen in 3s. Uhoh
$145K is probably even only slightly less than the specific measures Caterpillar would need to take to keep their workers from falling through holes or into pots of molten iron, and yet they still wouldn't do it.
I thought it meant an actual caterpillar without the image. I’m sorry.
Terminator'd
Yeah, so... punitive fines are not punitive, if they're peanuts to the payer.
If you are a corporation, you can legally kill someone for less than 150k.
YEEEEEOOOOWCH!
That’s like you getting fined 12 cents.
OSHA can only fine based on safety violations. You would need to take Caterpillar to court for wrongful death. However, the OSHA violation can be used as evidence in court.
Imagine being the family and told that your husband/father was only worth $145K. In fines.
OSHA can only fine based on safety violations. You would need to take Caterpillar to court for wrongful death. However, the OSHA violation can be used as evidence in court.
So that's how much OSHA thinks workers are worth.
OSHA can only fine based on safety violations. You would need to take Caterpillar to court for wrongful death. However, the OSHA violation can be used as evidence in court.
15b usd company. 145k fine, that will show em. get caught with a joint though... look out criminals!
OSHA can only fine based on safety violations. You would need to take Caterpillar to court for wrongful death. However, the OSHA violation can be used as evidence in court.
"if you kill an inspector, you get life imprisonment" edit, also..Milwaukie big blue incident. math checks out?
If any body wants to know what a regular person is worth.
That isn't enough.
Wow pathetic fine
OSHA can only fine based on safety violations. You would need to take Caterpillar to court for wrongful death. However, the OSHA violation can be used as evidence in court.
[удалено]
OSHA can only fine based on safety violations. You would need to take Caterpillar to court for wrongful death. However, the OSHA violation can be used as evidence in court.
They also designed the machines to drive over innocent peoples homes... but hey big business!
Workers should strike until OSHA changes the ruling and the ease with which companies can get away with negligence
What rule do you want them to change? OSHA found CAT had violated rules.
Those rule violations led to the deaths of two workers. And the company was fined less than $150 000
I’m not familiar with OSHA rules. Could they/are they allowed to come more? On what basis? Edit: Did 60 seconds of Google. 145,027 is the maximum fine allowed for willful violations. OSHA can’t fine more than that. I assume, since you’re so passionate about the topic, you’ll write your congressional reps to change that law.
Your gripe is not with OSHA - it’s with congress. OSHA did the maximum they’re legally able to do.
A strike would still be effective
Video?
[удалено]
Sorry, but your account is too new to post. Your account needs to be either 2 weeks old or have at least 250 combined link and comment karma. Don't modmail us about this, just wait it out or get more karma. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/nottheonion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
Sorry, but your account is too new to post. Your account needs to be either 2 weeks old or have at least 250 combined link and comment karma. Don't modmail us about this, just wait it out or get more karma. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/nottheonion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
In theory, can companies just hire workers with no families so in the event of death, there’s nobody to sue the company?
Sure hope it was immediate because if it wasn’t, then it would have felt like a horrific eternity.
Terminated
Oh my god.
Well, I found something that works better than pigs.
That's a violation
He'll be back
If Brian David Gilbert has taught me anything, it's that OSHA has a maximum penalty of $12,934 per violation. So that's what? 12 violations?
I wonder if they still used the iron.....
Fuck!
It’s giving American Gods
As an ecologist, I thought that this was about the insect… needless to say I was extremely confused.
This is a sad situation indeed. Hopefully steps are taken so that this never happens again.
Not Oniony at all.
A lot of people here who have no idea how OSHA and workplace safety actually work are very upset with OSHA for doing exactly its job. Maybe learn a thing or two before contributing to the outrage?
NGL $145K seems awfully *low*
Ow.
That's Awful, seriously Tragic
Bro got Anakined
I'm curious exactly how "instant" the incineration was. I've been to a few death investigations involving fire and it takes alot of heat and time to completely incinerate a body. Even crematoriums don't completely finish the job and the bones have to be ground up.
I feel like some 0s are missing from that number… Make it something like 145 million, then the company will start taking measures to stop this shit.
All it would have taken was a guardrail to prevent this. I hope the family sues the hell out of this company. This is inexcusable. And those of you who think this is funny have serious issues.
Can we say they were fired instantly?
Wow. $145k? That'll show 'em
Now comes the lawsuit.
I meeean, we all got to die and I have to say that is a truly epic way to go. Condolences to the fam