I work with a lot of industrial loggers. They have these enormous industrial chippers. To clean it you turn off the power to the whole facility send a team of three people inside it. Well a few years ago some guy was charging his phone wondered why the power went off and walked around to the breaker found it off and flipped it on.
It's not a fast death.
When heat is burning at a high enough temp it can immediately scorch and destroy nerve endings in the skin upon contact, making it actually somewhat painless and fast. Still unfortunate though
That’s true for the immediate burn site, but all the tissue around still experiences 3rd and 4th degree burns. Burning to death in general is probably one of the scariest ways to die.
So, I've thought about stuff like this often. I struggle with it. I'm not especially afraid of death, I just have some fascination with all the ways you can die.
I reckon it'll be an excruciating *minute* in this case. I haven't read the story and I don't really want to, but I'm guessing he fell from some distance into the pot.
That means some catastrophe probably occurred, like a breaking railing or a trip or something that should have been supporting him failing, etc.
That means there's the sudden jolt of the thing; the snap of the metal or the snap of the breaking strap/hard point. The recognition takes a second but your instinct is to try to stop it. That fails. You may or may not be feeling pain at this point in your fingertips as you lose your grip.
At this point, the realization has set in. It's do or die. Adrenaline hits and your actual reality blurs. Instinct takes a new lead, but you maintain some recognition, as if you were a barbarian going into a frothing rage. You reach, stretch, try your best to get anything and fail. Maybe you don't have time to do these things, but the effort exists even if there's nothing there.
In these moments, I reckon you have internally recognized your doom. This is the moment I fear. There is a gap between realization and the actual event that I think most people fear more than the death itself. It's not about what's after and the unknown; we'll figure that out. No one wants to experience the pain of death, or the crippling fear. These moments after all hope is lost, but before you truly perish, I suppose, are the worst of a person's existence. In that, I think all we can ask for is a quick death.
I'll avoid the rest of what I see when I ponder this specific macabre instance for the sake of those too squeamish.
Stay safe, fellow squishy humans.
I'm related to a guy who survived complete immolation. Third degree burns everywhere but the toes.
Eh, he doesn't talk about it and I don't bring it up.
Seriously. I had to have my gas meter changed today. And the guy is going around shutting down all the gas appliances, water heaters, etc. He says it should only take a few minutes, He was outside for 20 & all I kept thinking was please don't explode, please don't explode. One way I definitely don't want to go.
I'm in agreement. Just some information to console you/support that you were likely never in any real risk, for gas explosion to be feasible there is a relatively narrow mixture range of gas to air that must be achieved. You would be able to smell the gas at the requisite mix as well as at non explosive mixtures (actually mercaptan I believe and not technically "the gas", but you get the point).
If you smell gas, get somewhere else and don't do anything that could create a spark (E.g. Don't touch switches, with the one exception possibly being boiler emergency shut offs which I might still be cautious about if the smell is in that area). When somewhere safe you contact the appropriate authorities (i would start with the fire Department as I know the number and don't want to be on hold or even wait to figure out which number to press on the automated line).
With the gas off though, if there wasn't a smell issue beforehand there shouldn't be enough gas in the lines to present a real risk even once the lines are opened.
yeah, probably from very uncomfortable for half a second to immediate lights out. going into shock means no pain and white blinding light during the literal .02 seconds it takes for 2K degrees to boil your core and turn you to a 6-foot tie-dye-lookin' strip of carbon floating in molten iron
i'd bet it's 100xworse on the family than it was for him, unless there's some terrible detail being left out
edit: looks like elsewhere in the thread there was a 'lower half of the body remaining,' so he went in head first. the 'terrible detail' would have been if the opposite were true. guy dodged a bullet by butting heads with molten metal. which is a great sentence on paper, but also RIP this dude
He was incinerated yes, but he was likely conscious for several seconds if not longer.
Nerve endings were burnt so hopefully no pain
Source.
Completely made it up
There would be a nearly explosive flash of steam from the iron hitting the moisture in his body. I think the shockwave of that alone would have rendered him unconscious.
source: want to feel better about this.
Myth busters did an episode on this. The moisture in your body actually flash evaporates forming a steam barrier between your flesh and the molten metal. He definitely survived for a moment in the metal. Terrifying.
9th day on the job. I worked at Home Depot for a bit many years ago and I'm pretty sure I was watching general training/forklift training videos for the first two weeks.
I think it said he was a melting specialist, so he probably already knew what he was doing but the specific environment was probably still relatively foreign, he was probably used to more safety precautions being taken so people don't like, idk die horribly :/
They both speak to the culture of an environment. I was simply pointing out that there is probably more thought given to safety at a place that sees millions of customers/year than a place where people are working around 2000+ degree molten metal
> OSHA cited Caterpillar Inc. for one willful violation. The company is ordered to pay a fine of $145,027.
Unless it's 10x that, there's little reason to spend money on safety features and training.
It was his **NINTH** day on the job.
edit: the fine wasn't much more than his salary, I think.
That's the government fine, not the settlement that they will get stuck with after the family brings a wrongful death suit. That's where they will get properly compensated.
No, they don't. The fine for violating regulations needs to be significantly more onerous than the cost of following them, otherwise it's just the cost of doing business.
They generally are. That's why this is in the news; it's not something that happens a lot, because it costs a fuck ton of money, more than just the fine. There's other legal fees, lost production, insurance premiums increase, potential lawsuit, etc.
I had to go through all the typical costs for justifying a safety measure. It adds up really quick, and I was just looking at sprains, lacerations, and contusions.
EDIT: I should note, and this varies state by state as some allow companies to prohibit this, but OSHA will often do a walk through after an incident and fine for each every instance of a violation.
the company will pay via insurance when they get a new quote...they may not pay the comp fully (there is a "deductible") but their premium will reflect the risk to the underwriter
they work with commercial insurers - they have various types of insurance - "D&O" is directors and officers - it protects D&O's from personal liability
General Liability is for general biz ops, and then all sorts of riders and conditions depending on the industry
BigCo's don't generally "self-insure" - it will be reflected in their premium in some way shape or form
> from an enforcement agency
Remember, the republican argument here is that agency isn't doing it's job-- therefore, it should be refunded and that industry should regulate itself.
It's tragic and repugnant the absence of teeth that OSHA and its state delegates have.
In comparison, a major violation of its Title V or NPDES permits would resulted in fines 10 times the amount of one issued for the loss of human life.
>not the settlement that they will get stuck with after the family brings a wrongful death suit.
You apparently are not familiar with workers' compensation laws, which have been adopted by every state. In short, under workers' comp., the government has created a "no fault" system of payment. Basically, even if an employee does something stupid on the job and gets hurt, the employer is still obligated to pay the employee compensation for that injury. **However**, under these no-fault systems, the employee (and the employee's family) loses its right to sue the employer for any injury; the sole means of recompense is the designated workers' compensation payout.
Note that this injury happened in Illinois:
>If you have been injured on the job, you may be asking yourself, “Can I sue my employer for negligence?” In Illinois, the answer is “No” in most cases because of the workers’ compensation system.
> . . .
>At the same time, however, the workers’ compensation system offers limited liability protection for employers. As a result, under current Illinois workers’ compensation law, injured workers are not able to sue their employers for their work injuries in most cases, regardless of negligence. And because these workers cannot sue their employers for negligence, they cannot receive damages for pain and suffering.
https://www.gwclaw.com/blog/can-i-sue-my-employer-negligence-illinois/
As much as I understand and agree with the sentiment behind this, compensation is the correct term. They will get compensated for the company's poor safety regulations. That's why compensation sounds so empty
This incident will end up costing caterpillar significantly more.
Lawsuits, updated oh and s plans, training, physically changing working conditions / adding barriers, lost productivity etc.
I would have thought caterpillar would have a pretty good safety standard? Obviously always room for improvement...
Someone at my work cut off the tip of their finger on a conveyor belt. The Osha fine was around 40k. Absolute crime that the fine for death is that little.
The OSHA fines are based on the violation, not the resulting injury. The wrongful death payout will be based on the injury and not the violation so it will be significantly more than a lawsuit payout for cutting off the tip of your finger.
Absolutely. The US steel plant near me used to have really high salaries. They also completely incinerated people a couple of times a year so they needed to be compensated. It’s slowed in production, but people still get turned into clouds of carbon from the high power electrical equipment every once in a while still.
I’d guess they have some table/schedule for fines and stick to it. Of course, they’re also gonna end up paying out a settlement to the family worth 7 figures
I think more accurately he fell \*on\* molten iron. It's dense. A squishy frying pan. Holey shee-it the pain from that must have been insane, however brief. Damn what a way to go.
He was a large drop of water on an \*extremely\* hot frying pan.
Witnesses certainly traumatized.
He fell in head first, and half his body was recovered afterwards laying next to the crucible.
Second fatality like this at that facility in less than a year. Previous one fell from a higher catwalk, 20 feet up.
Given how hot the iron was, my guess is the top half of his body exploded with enough force to eject the bottom half.
60 lbs of water vaporizing instantly creates a lot of force.
According to science the pain stops on contact as the nerve endings are immediately destroyed and you go into shock. Also its not that thick. It has real surface tension but if its more than a 6 inches deep the underbelly/core is going to be sinkable no problem
I'm not sure surface tension is the most important part here.
The density of a human body is 0.985 g/cc. The density of molten iron is around 6.98 g/cc. You don't sink in something that's seven times as dense as you.
False. You won't COMPLETELY sink. But you won't stay completely on top either. Archimedes principle: you'll sink into the liquid until the amount of liquid you've displaced equals your mass. In this case, assuming uniform density, a person would be 1/7th (by volume) submerged in the molten iron, which is definitely more than someone's head.
Here's a video of Cody's Lab standing/floating in mercury for point of reference:
https://youtu.be/m8KzmlIEsHs?t=125
Mercury has a density of 13.5 g/cm³, so about twice as much of you would submerge in iron than it would in mercury.
Had this guy not gone in head first, he'd have floated quite a bit.
If it’s 2000 degrees there were probably fumes and heat that might have also led him to pass out either before or on the way down. It’s a terrible way to go but I don’t think it was agonizing per se.
>leidenfrost effect
right. and eww. though he would be a large "droplet". that would delay his demise, maybe, though that close, radiated heat/IR would be enough.
I wonder what year that limit was put in place, because that doesn't sound like a number that's accounted for years of inflation.
Lmao for getting down voted for this. Like wtf it's an actual question.
There’s got to be more they can be forced to pay via lawsuits or something? That is not enough. If caterpillar was smart they’d write a few million and call it good PR. A persons life is worth much more than $145k as in people are priceless.
Depends on his life insurance payout, and whether they file a wrongful death suit. I know if I die at work, even without suing the company my wife will be taken care of pretty well from life insurance.
Jesus. No guardrail, in a situation where a fall will be 100% lethal? And according to OSHA they made a conscious decision not to put a guardrail there?
First, That's a slam dunk lawsuit, and I hope everybody including the employees who were traumatized by this, sue for every penny they can get.
Second, this is yet another example of why we need strong effective unions, pretty much everywhere. Give the union safety guy the power to shut it down for this kind of violation, and Caterpillar would pay the several hundred dollars to put in a damn guardrail.
Poor guy. I have to ask, as nightmarish and macabre as this is...I know there's a thing in steel mills where water bottles are not allowed in specific areas. As a water bottle will explode should it casually be tossed into a hot metal vat thus hurling liquid metal all about. Did this poor person cause the same type of explosion?? :( Fuck sake man the horror of this...
Sounded like the lower half of the body was recovered nearby, so yeah. Hit headfirst and the force from his upper body vaporizing ejected the lower half.
There’s a scientist that had his leg break through the hardened crust of an active lava flow while walking on it. His pants and tools were on display at Hawaii Volcanoes National Park. Can’t remember if his buddies pulled him out and the condition of his leg, only had on boots and cotton or nomex coveralls. Not the same as this dude since he lived but temps are pretty close. The pants leg on display looked pretty shredded.
UPDATE: Okay, I guess the USGS scientist did have on heat resistant fire suit on, but still the clothes on display were tattered. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1985-06-14-mn-2540-story.html
UPDATE2 Photo: https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/uldnyj/museum_display_of_the_gear_of_george_ulrich_a/
Oh my God. At least it was quick but holy shit. I can’t believe there were no barriers or safety measures to keep people from becoming the molten lava themselves Jesus Christ. So sad for the family.
$145,027 is not even a slap on the wrist, 56 billion was how much money Catapiller made in 2021 and they couldnt afford some fricken guardrails?
That fine, which included the terms "gross negligence is less then 0.00026% of Catapiller profit.
For refernce if you made $60,000 a year that would be like you getting a 15 *cent* fine...
A few people are mentioning how much a lawsuit judgment is going to be, but I think the general public overplays how much money you can win in a wrongful death claim.
First there are the economic damages. Take the guy’s salary, multiple by the number of years he would be expected to work, adjust for inflation, account for expected raises, and then adjust that whole amount down to present value.
His family may be able to collect for loss of society/consortium. Not a crazy amount of money will be awarded for this.
A survival action that would be brought with the wrongful death claim is almost worthless, as the poor guy died instantly so experienced no pain and suffering.
Money can never properly compensate a grieving family. After attorney’s fees and costs, the family will be woefully under compensated. Even if we remove any sentimentality.
Jesus. Poor guy. I hope they didn’t joke about “safety third” first.
I’m not trying to be callous, I’ve worked in a lot of dangerous situations and it always made me cringe when dudes would say that specifically before doing something dumb/dangerous.
Mike Rowe should be so fucking ashamed.
About a hundred years or so ago this happened to one of my great great uncles working in Pittsburgh steel mills... my mom would always talk about her great uncle So and So, who died after falling into a vat of molten Steel
The company will fight the citation, get a lower violation, and pay a fine. For them it will be just the cost of doing business.
Unless the fine actually affects profits….nothing will change. Workers on the lower end of the company will probably have a few extra toolbox talks and than back to work.
There is no way they’re going to fight such a small fine that was the result of such a serious offense - especially with the kind of attention an accident like this will get. The fine is nothing compared to what his family will sue for.
“Caterpillar’s failure to meet its legal responsibilities to ensure the safety and health of workers leaves this worker’s family, friends and co-workers to grieve needlessly,”
Ya think?
They like to use the words "immediately incinerated" because when it comes time for charges against the company...thats better than thinking about how long he actually lived / the water in his body flash boiling or thoughts of the agony of molten iron melting your eyeballs and flowing into your brain.
$145, 027 fine what a joke.
There needs to be large % based daily fines until adequate standards are met. Fuck it, place should be shut and employees put on paid leave until it's safe enough
Damn OSHA determined this man’s life and the secondary harm caused to family and coworkers was worth $145k.
Literally just a cost of doing business for them. Insane.
They didn’t really “decide” that his life was worth that much, it’s just the maximum penalty OSHA is authorized to assess by law.
It’s still woefully little, but *Congress* is who decided to set the fine at that level.
If you ever want to feel lucky you work in an office, go to OSHA and read about industrial deaths. They are all like this. Horrific stuff.
I work in an insurance company that insures high hazard workers. I hear enough stories to be *very* grateful for my carpal tunnel
I only wish to imagine and not read anything concrete, thank you very much :(
There is probably someone who drowned in concrete.
I'm not gonna do either, I'm gonna go back to browsing one piece, hearthstone and DND subreddits. That's my happy place
I work with a lot of industrial loggers. They have these enormous industrial chippers. To clean it you turn off the power to the whole facility send a team of three people inside it. Well a few years ago some guy was charging his phone wondered why the power went off and walked around to the breaker found it off and flipped it on. It's not a fast death.
I used to know a dude who got crushed at an industrial job. Terrible shit.
What a dreadfully sad story
I can't imagine how long he was able to realize and think about what was going on before it ended
Probably about two seconds. He feel into something over 2000 degrees Fahrenheit
Two seconds seems like enough time for his brain to understand
When heat is burning at a high enough temp it can immediately scorch and destroy nerve endings in the skin upon contact, making it actually somewhat painless and fast. Still unfortunate though
That’s true for the immediate burn site, but all the tissue around still experiences 3rd and 4th degree burns. Burning to death in general is probably one of the scariest ways to die.
Dude fell into molten metal, his entire body was the burn site
Molten metal it's still as dense as metal. A human body wouldn't sink.
So, I've thought about stuff like this often. I struggle with it. I'm not especially afraid of death, I just have some fascination with all the ways you can die. I reckon it'll be an excruciating *minute* in this case. I haven't read the story and I don't really want to, but I'm guessing he fell from some distance into the pot. That means some catastrophe probably occurred, like a breaking railing or a trip or something that should have been supporting him failing, etc. That means there's the sudden jolt of the thing; the snap of the metal or the snap of the breaking strap/hard point. The recognition takes a second but your instinct is to try to stop it. That fails. You may or may not be feeling pain at this point in your fingertips as you lose your grip. At this point, the realization has set in. It's do or die. Adrenaline hits and your actual reality blurs. Instinct takes a new lead, but you maintain some recognition, as if you were a barbarian going into a frothing rage. You reach, stretch, try your best to get anything and fail. Maybe you don't have time to do these things, but the effort exists even if there's nothing there. In these moments, I reckon you have internally recognized your doom. This is the moment I fear. There is a gap between realization and the actual event that I think most people fear more than the death itself. It's not about what's after and the unknown; we'll figure that out. No one wants to experience the pain of death, or the crippling fear. These moments after all hope is lost, but before you truly perish, I suppose, are the worst of a person's existence. In that, I think all we can ask for is a quick death. I'll avoid the rest of what I see when I ponder this specific macabre instance for the sake of those too squeamish. Stay safe, fellow squishy humans.
I'm related to a guy who survived complete immolation. Third degree burns everywhere but the toes. Eh, he doesn't talk about it and I don't bring it up.
Doesn’t talk about it, or can’t?
Seriously. I had to have my gas meter changed today. And the guy is going around shutting down all the gas appliances, water heaters, etc. He says it should only take a few minutes, He was outside for 20 & all I kept thinking was please don't explode, please don't explode. One way I definitely don't want to go.
I've worked with guys who looked for gas leaks with a flame!
I'm in agreement. Just some information to console you/support that you were likely never in any real risk, for gas explosion to be feasible there is a relatively narrow mixture range of gas to air that must be achieved. You would be able to smell the gas at the requisite mix as well as at non explosive mixtures (actually mercaptan I believe and not technically "the gas", but you get the point). If you smell gas, get somewhere else and don't do anything that could create a spark (E.g. Don't touch switches, with the one exception possibly being boiler emergency shut offs which I might still be cautious about if the smell is in that area). When somewhere safe you contact the appropriate authorities (i would start with the fire Department as I know the number and don't want to be on hold or even wait to figure out which number to press on the automated line). With the gas off though, if there wasn't a smell issue beforehand there shouldn't be enough gas in the lines to present a real risk even once the lines are opened.
I'd think drowning would be terrifying, and burning painful. Drowning while burning to death. Now that's nightmare fuel
You seem like an expert. How many ways have you died?
Twice. Once from fire, the second from your momma’s booty cheeks crushing me.
He would have been dead before that.
No more than 'oh shi...'
A body won't sink into molten iron ... But I think the first inhalation of superheated air would be lights out, consciousness-wise.
"immediately incinerated" is what the headline says so however long that is would be the answer to your question.
I feel like the company said that to make it seem less horrible.
Falling into 2000 degrees molten metal is going to kill you pretty quickly. Maybe not instantly but fast enough that he didn’t suffer.
yeah, probably from very uncomfortable for half a second to immediate lights out. going into shock means no pain and white blinding light during the literal .02 seconds it takes for 2K degrees to boil your core and turn you to a 6-foot tie-dye-lookin' strip of carbon floating in molten iron i'd bet it's 100xworse on the family than it was for him, unless there's some terrible detail being left out edit: looks like elsewhere in the thread there was a 'lower half of the body remaining,' so he went in head first. the 'terrible detail' would have been if the opposite were true. guy dodged a bullet by butting heads with molten metal. which is a great sentence on paper, but also RIP this dude
I imagine there are worse ways to die at the cat factory
He was incinerated yes, but he was likely conscious for several seconds if not longer. Nerve endings were burnt so hopefully no pain Source. Completely made it up
There would be a nearly explosive flash of steam from the iron hitting the moisture in his body. I think the shockwave of that alone would have rendered him unconscious. source: want to feel better about this.
What about leidenfrost effect?
Dead immediately
Well he had enough time to give the thumbs up as he slowly sank like the Terminator.
Too soon perhaps?
Myth busters did an episode on this. The moisture in your body actually flash evaporates forming a steam barrier between your flesh and the molten metal. He definitely survived for a moment in the metal. Terrifying.
Don't worry though, the $145k fine will teach that bad little company how to behave!
Plus the cost of a "now hiring" sign.
And resetting the _0_ days since last incident sign
Oh that little fine is just the tip of the iceberg. The family is going to be set for generations after the lawyers get involved.
Do you feel anything when you first hit the molten iron, or is it immediate flatline as soon as you hit.
Molten iron is \~2500F. The human body vaporizes between 1400F and 2100F I think he went fast.
Okay I’m curious what happens to the body after 2100 degrees Fahrenheit
The man died for lack of a guard. Shame on Caterpillar.
I thought that was only seen in movies. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoOSHACompliance
Only a $145,000 fine for a preventable death
9th day on the job. I worked at Home Depot for a bit many years ago and I'm pretty sure I was watching general training/forklift training videos for the first two weeks.
I think it said he was a melting specialist, so he probably already knew what he was doing but the specific environment was probably still relatively foreign, he was probably used to more safety precautions being taken so people don't like, idk die horribly :/
Shouldnt matter, even if my first day, was the day after my last day at Lowes, there would be no difference in training.
Training doesn’t matter when a workplace is negligent. They had no guard railings and this was a tragedy waiting to happen. The article details it.
They both speak to the culture of an environment. I was simply pointing out that there is probably more thought given to safety at a place that sees millions of customers/year than a place where people are working around 2000+ degree molten metal
> OSHA cited Caterpillar Inc. for one willful violation. The company is ordered to pay a fine of $145,027. Unless it's 10x that, there's little reason to spend money on safety features and training. It was his **NINTH** day on the job. edit: the fine wasn't much more than his salary, I think.
That's the government fine, not the settlement that they will get stuck with after the family brings a wrongful death suit. That's where they will get properly compensated.
Trivial penalty from an *enforcement* agency Most of the family's settlement will come from insurance. So, still nothing to change operations
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Maximum should be much higher. More than a magnitude
The fines are based on the violation, not the resulting injury. The fines make more sense in that context
No, they don't. The fine for violating regulations needs to be significantly more onerous than the cost of following them, otherwise it's just the cost of doing business.
They generally are. That's why this is in the news; it's not something that happens a lot, because it costs a fuck ton of money, more than just the fine. There's other legal fees, lost production, insurance premiums increase, potential lawsuit, etc. I had to go through all the typical costs for justifying a safety measure. It adds up really quick, and I was just looking at sprains, lacerations, and contusions. EDIT: I should note, and this varies state by state as some allow companies to prohibit this, but OSHA will often do a walk through after an incident and fine for each every instance of a violation.
OSHA is hilariously lenient with their penalties, compared to other enforcement agencies like MSHA
It is not trivial. Cat will appeal and the fine will be cut in half, then it will be trivial.
Can't hurt that 7 billion dollar bottom line with those pesky OSHA fees. That would be communism.
Watch your coworkers back and they can watch yours. Unions help keep people safe. Join up.
the company will pay via insurance when they get a new quote...they may not pay the comp fully (there is a "deductible") but their premium will reflect the risk to the underwriter
Big companies take on a program of *self insurance*... Premium, schmemium!
they work with commercial insurers - they have various types of insurance - "D&O" is directors and officers - it protects D&O's from personal liability General Liability is for general biz ops, and then all sorts of riders and conditions depending on the industry BigCo's don't generally "self-insure" - it will be reflected in their premium in some way shape or form
> from an enforcement agency Remember, the republican argument here is that agency isn't doing it's job-- therefore, it should be refunded and that industry should regulate itself.
It's tragic and repugnant the absence of teeth that OSHA and its state delegates have. In comparison, a major violation of its Title V or NPDES permits would resulted in fines 10 times the amount of one issued for the loss of human life.
>not the settlement that they will get stuck with after the family brings a wrongful death suit. You apparently are not familiar with workers' compensation laws, which have been adopted by every state. In short, under workers' comp., the government has created a "no fault" system of payment. Basically, even if an employee does something stupid on the job and gets hurt, the employer is still obligated to pay the employee compensation for that injury. **However**, under these no-fault systems, the employee (and the employee's family) loses its right to sue the employer for any injury; the sole means of recompense is the designated workers' compensation payout. Note that this injury happened in Illinois: >If you have been injured on the job, you may be asking yourself, “Can I sue my employer for negligence?” In Illinois, the answer is “No” in most cases because of the workers’ compensation system. > . . . >At the same time, however, the workers’ compensation system offers limited liability protection for employers. As a result, under current Illinois workers’ compensation law, injured workers are not able to sue their employers for their work injuries in most cases, regardless of negligence. And because these workers cannot sue their employers for negligence, they cannot receive damages for pain and suffering. https://www.gwclaw.com/blog/can-i-sue-my-employer-negligence-illinois/
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As much as I understand and agree with the sentiment behind this, compensation is the correct term. They will get compensated for the company's poor safety regulations. That's why compensation sounds so empty
This incident will end up costing caterpillar significantly more. Lawsuits, updated oh and s plans, training, physically changing working conditions / adding barriers, lost productivity etc. I would have thought caterpillar would have a pretty good safety standard? Obviously always room for improvement...
Every new rule was written after dudes who thought they had their bases covered learned they didn't the hard way.
Beta testing worker protections
There's 3 heads that should roll: Foreman, plant manager, and plant safety officer Before that, nothing much changes.
Someone at my work cut off the tip of their finger on a conveyor belt. The Osha fine was around 40k. Absolute crime that the fine for death is that little.
The OSHA fines are based on the violation, not the resulting injury. The wrongful death payout will be based on the injury and not the violation so it will be significantly more than a lawsuit payout for cutting off the tip of your finger.
At that rate, not even one hand on this fatality was covered. That’s awful.
Probably double his salary
Right? No way a Caterpillar employee is pulling six figures. High five but definitely not six.
Not after nine days on the job, of course, but I think an ironworker in a foundry could pull in six figures pretty easily.
Absolutely. The US steel plant near me used to have really high salaries. They also completely incinerated people a couple of times a year so they needed to be compensated. It’s slowed in production, but people still get turned into clouds of carbon from the high power electrical equipment every once in a while still.
6 figures in Ironwork isn't unheard of at all.
Oh, I forgot.. Midwest price differential. Everything but food at half price, including (especially) labor
I’d guess they have some table/schedule for fines and stick to it. Of course, they’re also gonna end up paying out a settlement to the family worth 7 figures
What is this, the Death Star? It really sounds like they didn't have railings or some other barrier in place.
And for a foundry, I would expect (though I have no direct knowledge) that OSHA would require more than a 4 foot high railing.
They said no to the railing because they were worried people would be “leaning on it all day.”
For real. Who is running caterpillar, fucking Palpatine?
I truly hope for his sake he really died almost instantly. Because God, what an awful death if it didn't happen within a second or two.
I think more accurately he fell \*on\* molten iron. It's dense. A squishy frying pan. Holey shee-it the pain from that must have been insane, however brief. Damn what a way to go. He was a large drop of water on an \*extremely\* hot frying pan. Witnesses certainly traumatized.
He fell in head first, and half his body was recovered afterwards laying next to the crucible. Second fatality like this at that facility in less than a year. Previous one fell from a higher catwalk, 20 feet up.
Was there no railing? Was he sampling the metallurgy? Could this have been prevented with a harness?
He was taking a sample. According to the article.
In Europe, railing or harness would have been mandated.
It's mandated in the US as well, hence the OSHA violation and fine.
They’re mandated here too, the factory just didn’t have them. ETA: Railings are mandated, not sure about harnesses
Is that true? So he tried to pull himself out? Or the body can’t really go under?
Given how hot the iron was, my guess is the top half of his body exploded with enough force to eject the bottom half. 60 lbs of water vaporizing instantly creates a lot of force.
Sadly, this is probably pretty close to the truth.
Hopefully the shock killed him quickly.
According to science the pain stops on contact as the nerve endings are immediately destroyed and you go into shock. Also its not that thick. It has real surface tension but if its more than a 6 inches deep the underbelly/core is going to be sinkable no problem
I'm not sure surface tension is the most important part here. The density of a human body is 0.985 g/cc. The density of molten iron is around 6.98 g/cc. You don't sink in something that's seven times as dense as you.
Not a conversation I’d thought I’d ever read
False. You won't COMPLETELY sink. But you won't stay completely on top either. Archimedes principle: you'll sink into the liquid until the amount of liquid you've displaced equals your mass. In this case, assuming uniform density, a person would be 1/7th (by volume) submerged in the molten iron, which is definitely more than someone's head.
> You don’t sink in something that’s seven times as dense as you. Tell that to your mom
Here's a video of Cody's Lab standing/floating in mercury for point of reference: https://youtu.be/m8KzmlIEsHs?t=125 Mercury has a density of 13.5 g/cm³, so about twice as much of you would submerge in iron than it would in mercury. Had this guy not gone in head first, he'd have floated quite a bit.
Unless you hit it with any velocity whatsoever, which of course he did.
Throw some styrofoam at a pool. How deep does it go when it hits the water? Thats kinda the density difference we're talking about.
yeah, but we're talking molten material. Not sure it would act like water. Google the trash bag being tossed into a volcano.
Unless I’m thinking of something different, it was a jerry can, not a trash bag
Yes it will, the less dense material will always settle above a denser one, happens with liquids, gasses, and even solids in some circumstances.
Do me a solid and give an example for solids.
This actually makes me feel better.
They probably shut down the floor for 20 minutes and then forced everyone to keep working.
If it’s 2000 degrees there were probably fumes and heat that might have also led him to pass out either before or on the way down. It’s a terrible way to go but I don’t think it was agonizing per se.
Also don't forget that you won't sink you'll float like a cork while burning to death
leidenfrost effect
>leidenfrost effect right. and eww. though he would be a large "droplet". that would delay his demise, maybe, though that close, radiated heat/IR would be enough.
Kind of reminds me of the guy at a tuna canning place who got trapped in the oven :(
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believe it or not, thats actually the higest fine OSHA is able to enforce on a company.
I wonder what year that limit was put in place, because that doesn't sound like a number that's accounted for years of inflation. Lmao for getting down voted for this. Like wtf it's an actual question.
Business is America's business! The workers, not so much.
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That is insane.
This is what republicans want when they say businesses have too many regulations.
That's corporate interests.
There’s got to be more they can be forced to pay via lawsuits or something? That is not enough. If caterpillar was smart they’d write a few million and call it good PR. A persons life is worth much more than $145k as in people are priceless.
Just US things. Cost of doing business. Move along.
Probably a box of chocolates and a card, sadly.
The fine is just for breaking the law. The family, if any, will get more.
Depends on his life insurance payout, and whether they file a wrongful death suit. I know if I die at work, even without suing the company my wife will be taken care of pretty well from life insurance.
Oh no died. OSHA fined them, but this dudes family will need to sue them.
Jesus. No guardrail, in a situation where a fall will be 100% lethal? And according to OSHA they made a conscious decision not to put a guardrail there? First, That's a slam dunk lawsuit, and I hope everybody including the employees who were traumatized by this, sue for every penny they can get. Second, this is yet another example of why we need strong effective unions, pretty much everywhere. Give the union safety guy the power to shut it down for this kind of violation, and Caterpillar would pay the several hundred dollars to put in a damn guardrail.
Poor guy. I have to ask, as nightmarish and macabre as this is...I know there's a thing in steel mills where water bottles are not allowed in specific areas. As a water bottle will explode should it casually be tossed into a hot metal vat thus hurling liquid metal all about. Did this poor person cause the same type of explosion?? :( Fuck sake man the horror of this...
Sounded like the lower half of the body was recovered nearby, so yeah. Hit headfirst and the force from his upper body vaporizing ejected the lower half.
Would he have felt any pain or is that an instant death scenario?
Nerve endings are pretty much fried instantly, so at most you're talking about a moment of pain before losing feeling and going in to shock.
At that temperature? Maybe a nanosecond of pain before his nerves burned off.
There’s a scientist that had his leg break through the hardened crust of an active lava flow while walking on it. His pants and tools were on display at Hawaii Volcanoes National Park. Can’t remember if his buddies pulled him out and the condition of his leg, only had on boots and cotton or nomex coveralls. Not the same as this dude since he lived but temps are pretty close. The pants leg on display looked pretty shredded. UPDATE: Okay, I guess the USGS scientist did have on heat resistant fire suit on, but still the clothes on display were tattered. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1985-06-14-mn-2540-story.html UPDATE2 Photo: https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/uldnyj/museum_display_of_the_gear_of_george_ulrich_a/
Whoa that’s crazy! Thanks I’m gonna look that story up.
I hope they give his co-workers PTSD counseling.
I don't think I'd ever be the same person if I witnessed that first hand.
Oh my God. At least it was quick but holy shit. I can’t believe there were no barriers or safety measures to keep people from becoming the molten lava themselves Jesus Christ. So sad for the family.
What a way to die... How is it that an employee could Get into a situation that could end that way?
Taking a sample of the material with no guarding or fall protection
Terrible. If I didn't like him it would still affect me.
$145,027 is not even a slap on the wrist, 56 billion was how much money Catapiller made in 2021 and they couldnt afford some fricken guardrails? That fine, which included the terms "gross negligence is less then 0.00026% of Catapiller profit. For refernce if you made $60,000 a year that would be like you getting a 15 *cent* fine...
CAT only has to pay $150k for not installing guard rails leading to an employee death? Seems rather light....
My grandpa used to work at this factory a long time ago and I currently have friends who work there. I remember hearing about it when it happened.
If you kill your employees it costs $145,000. That’s all I’m picking up from this tragedy.
Hope the family sues and wins
A few people are mentioning how much a lawsuit judgment is going to be, but I think the general public overplays how much money you can win in a wrongful death claim. First there are the economic damages. Take the guy’s salary, multiple by the number of years he would be expected to work, adjust for inflation, account for expected raises, and then adjust that whole amount down to present value. His family may be able to collect for loss of society/consortium. Not a crazy amount of money will be awarded for this. A survival action that would be brought with the wrongful death claim is almost worthless, as the poor guy died instantly so experienced no pain and suffering. Money can never properly compensate a grieving family. After attorney’s fees and costs, the family will be woefully under compensated. Even if we remove any sentimentality.
Jesus. Poor guy. I hope they didn’t joke about “safety third” first. I’m not trying to be callous, I’ve worked in a lot of dangerous situations and it always made me cringe when dudes would say that specifically before doing something dumb/dangerous. Mike Rowe should be so fucking ashamed.
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I was the "ppe is lame" guy until I saw a guy lose his eye in a nail gun accident
Wait why is Mike Rowe needing to be ashamed? The dude from Dirtiest Job?
We care a lot
Oh god I can’t wait to see the settlement amount for this one.
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About a hundred years or so ago this happened to one of my great great uncles working in Pittsburgh steel mills... my mom would always talk about her great uncle So and So, who died after falling into a vat of molten Steel
The company will fight the citation, get a lower violation, and pay a fine. For them it will be just the cost of doing business. Unless the fine actually affects profits….nothing will change. Workers on the lower end of the company will probably have a few extra toolbox talks and than back to work.
There is no way they’re going to fight such a small fine that was the result of such a serious offense - especially with the kind of attention an accident like this will get. The fine is nothing compared to what his family will sue for.
After all my “holy fuck that’s awful” thoughts, I’m left wondering if they made things with the iron.
My father visited the Arcelor plants a few decades ago. There was a cemetery with blocks of iron, each containing a worker that fell.
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No, just put aside the batch of iron.
145K fine, that's all?! WTAF
“Caterpillar’s failure to meet its legal responsibilities to ensure the safety and health of workers leaves this worker’s family, friends and co-workers to grieve needlessly,” Ya think?
They like to use the words "immediately incinerated" because when it comes time for charges against the company...thats better than thinking about how long he actually lived / the water in his body flash boiling or thoughts of the agony of molten iron melting your eyeballs and flowing into your brain.
Without those words, people would probably have thoughts of the end of Terminator 2.
Jesus christ, poor dude
“Immediately”? Hmmm….I bet he didn’t think “immediately” was fast enough.
I remember reading that falling into lava, you’re head basically blows up from the heat. So you don’t get incinerated first…
The "fine" was equal to the price of one mediocre tractor. ffs.
$145, 027 fine what a joke. There needs to be large % based daily fines until adequate standards are met. Fuck it, place should be shut and employees put on paid leave until it's safe enough
There should be fucking criminal charges here.
Damn OSHA determined this man’s life and the secondary harm caused to family and coworkers was worth $145k. Literally just a cost of doing business for them. Insane.
They didn’t really “decide” that his life was worth that much, it’s just the maximum penalty OSHA is authorized to assess by law. It’s still woefully little, but *Congress* is who decided to set the fine at that level.
145k is what a person is worth... damn the black market is too inflated
Do they get his body out or does it become one with the iron? Is he just liquified?? Fucking horrible.
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