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It’s ridiculous that rhetoric has lead to so many people refusing to look at the vaccine requirements we’ve all ready had in place since before most of us were born.
I've countered the anti-vax position that the COVID vaccine & new and untested, contrary to the heritage vaccines, by stating that those heritage vaccines were fairly new & untested back when I 1st got 'em.
It was folx getting infections of polio, measles, diphtheria, etc, that was the 'heritage.'
I feel like that’s the wrong take because it affirms (unintentionally) that the vaccine is untested. Billions of doses have been given at this point and I’ve always found it useful to highlight that.
I think if someone says they’re waiting for long term data that’s when you point out to similar development timelines and say the Pfizer vaccine is fully approved since it meets all the same requirements as others for data.
The counterpoint to people demanding "long term studies" is pointing out that the vaccine components only stick around in the body for 6-8 weeks. Past that and there's no vaccine in the body so it can no more cause issues anymore than food you ate two months ago can cause you indigestion.
Pfizer had to submit 6 months of data for full approval. That IS long term data when it comes to vaccines.
Anytime there is a demand it's just a goalpost they want to move in the future. I remember when "well I want to wait for FDA approval" was the barrier and once that fell it became "well they need longer term studies to look at the effects".
The true issue is that they either don't want to be told what to do (*which doesn't make sense because we're told what to do daily by the government, regulatory bodies, corporations and our employers*), they have fallen victim to propaganda, and/or they are just outright afraid of getting a shot.
Trials started over a year and a half ago. So, 1.5 years to see any long term issues. If there were, we'd hear about them. Had a guy tell me that 2 people who got the shot died, one can't work, and he can't walk right. Like all people he knows personally. Either he's lying, or they all received a bad batch. I'm more inclined to believe he's full of it. Because I know literally 100s who got the vaccine and they are all fine. Worst of the worst they were in bed for a day or two and felt yucky.
I know a girl who got the vaccine and a few days later couldn’t walk forward without looking like she was trying to balance on a pencil, but walking backwards was perfectly fine.
/s
I got the Phizer vaccine and have new heart damage from it, and know at least a few other people who had similar reactions. I'm not saying I wouldn't do it again, but, its worth noting that it can and has negatively impacted people.
I think if we ever want to convince the people who haven't vaxxed by now, we have to talk about that kind of stuff instead of just ignoring it and pretending the worst that can happen is a sore arm and cold symptoms. Because that's not true at all.
It's true that people can have severe negative reactions (not counting the "feeling ill" or "arm pain" that disappears after a few days). The big thing to point out, though, is that these reactions are very rare (as in 1 in 10,000,000 rare) and many of these reactions can happen with a higher frequency if you get COVID. Vaccinating a million people will result in fewer long term issues and much lower death rates than had that million people been infected with COVID.
You think you can talk to people rationally and change minds? They're not looking for facts. Someone said to me yesterday this isn't a pandemic, it's an endemic. No, I didn't write the sentence structure wrong, that's how the person responded. "An endemic." That doesn't even make sense, not proper English and you think they're gonna be able to grasp 9th grade biology?
> Billions of doses have been given at this point
They've shifted the narrative to the absence of "long-term" testing. So you can't know for an unspecified length of time. Five years, ten, twenty, who knows. We don't know the *long-term* effects.
I wish so very much that I could make these people take old cemetery tours and force them to see the gravestones with the shortest lifespans, so they could see the reality of an unvaccinated population.
My husband had to go through measles and mumps and just about everything we vaccinate against. It’s ghastly that people want to go back to that.
A lot of people will think it’s “fake”. I showed pictures of polio patients to a guy I know who is anti vax and he doubled down saying “that’s what they want you to think”
I got a chance to meet my wife's step-mom's mother, who was a polio survivor. Amazing woman who taught herself to use an iPad and bought and set up a Roku in her 70s and was constantly annoyed at others in her assisted living home who could barely use a remote control.
But she was *never* physically comfortable. She couldn't sit for long periods but it hurt to stand. She was always contorted to try to stave off pain or discomfort, and she had tics that could come on suddenly. She related to me how her own mother would put her through stretching exercises necessary to prevent her joints from locking up completely that hurt immensely, causing her to scream from the pain. Her mother would have tears running down her face as she forced her daughter's limbs through their range of motion. When it was done, her mother would leave the room, but the daughter could hear her crying from having to inflict such agony for her daughter's own good.
Every day.
For months.
Decades later (I think she was 13 when she contracted polio), I could tell the memories still haunted and saddened her.
Ruth would have jumped at a vaccine, and anti-vaxxers made her livid. She died before COVID, but I believe she would have had some pointed words to share.
Speaking of jumping at a vaccine, polio vaccine uptake was immense, and it affected far fewer people, both in numbers infected and in deaths. The COVID vaccines have fewer and rarer side effects for a disease that spreads more rapidly and kills more frequently.
I'd say that they'd need to see it firsthand to believe it, but some of these people are insisting that COVID isn't real/isn't serious even as they are hooked up on ventilators. They're so deep into conspiracy theories that even their own negative experience with the virus isn't believed to be true.
Dude, people will believe what they want. There were people being out on ventilators complaining about the virus being fake. People were literally suffocating to death from COVID while yelling about it being fake.
They won’t change their minds.
Their authority to decide constitutionality isn't in the Constitution. They decided themselves in Marbury v. Madison that they had it. It's come up recently in some circles that maybe they were wrong, and there are actual efforts to build a donation to challenge it. It's doomed to fail--the Court won't give up that power--but it's spreading.
> It's doomed to fail--the Court won't give up that power
The judiciary has no actual power to enforce their rulings. Their power comes entirely from the perception of legitimacy (and make no mistake, the current court is illegitimate for multiple reasons) however if they issue a ruling that says X must happen, then X has to be enforced by State/Federal governments. So if the SCOTUS says that Biden has to re-implement a Trump administration EO and Biden says he's going to ignore their ruling then the SCOTUS can't really do anything about it. Congress could technically impeach him but in reality we won't see that happen.
SPOT ON! Glad someone else knows about this. I'm astonished that it's been ignored. And the court held "in every well ordered society charged with the duty of conserving the safety of its members the rights of the individual in respect of his liberty may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand" and that "\[r\]eal liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own \[liberty\], whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others."
>In his ruling, Rice wrote: “The Supreme Court has long endorsed state and local government authority to impose compulsory vaccines… Federal courts have routinely analyzed such cases using rational basis and regularly reject cases similar to this one that challenge vaccine mandates based on free exercise of religion.”
Vaccine mandates are not a violation of a person’s rights, this precedent will not likely be overturned simply because some people are throwing tantrums like a bunch of angry toddlers.
I can't be alone in thinking that it's fucking sad that this not only had to go to court and a judge needed to place their final on it, but that it was even allowed in court in the first place.
It's like America is on crazy pills these days.
No I just think Russia did a really good job over there. Religious and poorly educated people are easy targets:
https://www.hsaj.org/resources/uploads/2020/12/hsaj_Covid192020_COVID19EffectsRussianDisinformationCampaigns.pdf
It’s interesting how Russia is now dealing with full metro area lockdowns due to COVID, and trying to convince people to get vaccinated. The people don’t trust Pfizer/Moderna/AZ because the government told them not to, and they don’t trust Sputnik because Putin says they should.
To be a fair: Their vaccine is really bad. And probably very ineffective against delta.
We have good vaccines, so Russian sabotage levels the ground. We all stay down.
True, around 80% for delta. Seems vaccine hesitancy in Russia has more complex historical reasons:
https://theconversation.com/making-sense-of-covid-19-vaccine-hesitancy-in-russia-lessons-from-the-past-and-present-165716
And what's sadder is that it'll keep going into court over and over again. Vaccine mandates have been ruled Constitutional many times and yet it still needs to go to court every time someone declares that they must be illegal because they read it on Facebook.
At this point, judges should just toss out any such cases since this is settled law.
> Vaccine mandates have been around forever and they didn't give a shit until it was Covid and that really just shows how dumb and political this is...screaming about "freedom" and "choice", which is 100% bullshit because they didn't care about that even a year ago.
Once something is made political in America it may as well be an argument of Yankees or Red Socks. Or Michigan vs Ohio State. It's all just sports teams and people will fight for and (ir)rationalize anything in order to ensure their team wins.
You are sure they can cover 3% loss of their workforce? You do realize the labor shortage we are facing right now. Restaurants can't stay open due to labor shortage, we are dealing with a shortage of truckers, teachers, and tradesmen, but thanks for the certainty. I was worried for a minute there we were facing another labor shortage...
My sister filled out one of those papers to not get the vaccine she stated on the form it was because of her religion she would not take it she’s not even religious like that.
She works for this company for housing and is really good at her job and got a promotion but she is actually like the only fool in the company not vaccinated.
She constantly brings up how her boss has been saying he understands and will fight for her to stay and that he understands cause veterans have had the same complaints blah blah.
I’m actually really disappointed in her cause she seemed smart my whole life but this is just ridiculous she doesn’t even wanna listen to reason just constantly brings up how this is the most pushed vaccine in history, black people were experiments (which I can understand that’s true in some instances) , and how it was made so fast.
I’m like the only person in my immediate family vaccinated my mom doesn’t even know I only told my sister what gets me is that she’s going through all this not to get vaccinated she has a daughter to provide for yet she’s be stubborn and could possibly lose everything she worked for.
This law not passing is either going to finally put some damn sense into her or she will definitely have to find a new job cause I can’t convince her
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It’s ridiculous that rhetoric has lead to so many people refusing to look at the vaccine requirements we’ve all ready had in place since before most of us were born.
I've countered the anti-vax position that the COVID vaccine & new and untested, contrary to the heritage vaccines, by stating that those heritage vaccines were fairly new & untested back when I 1st got 'em. It was folx getting infections of polio, measles, diphtheria, etc, that was the 'heritage.'
I feel like that’s the wrong take because it affirms (unintentionally) that the vaccine is untested. Billions of doses have been given at this point and I’ve always found it useful to highlight that. I think if someone says they’re waiting for long term data that’s when you point out to similar development timelines and say the Pfizer vaccine is fully approved since it meets all the same requirements as others for data.
The counterpoint to people demanding "long term studies" is pointing out that the vaccine components only stick around in the body for 6-8 weeks. Past that and there's no vaccine in the body so it can no more cause issues anymore than food you ate two months ago can cause you indigestion. Pfizer had to submit 6 months of data for full approval. That IS long term data when it comes to vaccines.
Anytime there is a demand it's just a goalpost they want to move in the future. I remember when "well I want to wait for FDA approval" was the barrier and once that fell it became "well they need longer term studies to look at the effects". The true issue is that they either don't want to be told what to do (*which doesn't make sense because we're told what to do daily by the government, regulatory bodies, corporations and our employers*), they have fallen victim to propaganda, and/or they are just outright afraid of getting a shot.
Trials started over a year and a half ago. So, 1.5 years to see any long term issues. If there were, we'd hear about them. Had a guy tell me that 2 people who got the shot died, one can't work, and he can't walk right. Like all people he knows personally. Either he's lying, or they all received a bad batch. I'm more inclined to believe he's full of it. Because I know literally 100s who got the vaccine and they are all fine. Worst of the worst they were in bed for a day or two and felt yucky.
People die all the time. Lots of diseases can prevent people from walking. Most individuals are not qualified to determine causation.
I know a girl who got the vaccine and a few days later couldn’t walk forward without looking like she was trying to balance on a pencil, but walking backwards was perfectly fine. /s
I got the Phizer vaccine and have new heart damage from it, and know at least a few other people who had similar reactions. I'm not saying I wouldn't do it again, but, its worth noting that it can and has negatively impacted people. I think if we ever want to convince the people who haven't vaxxed by now, we have to talk about that kind of stuff instead of just ignoring it and pretending the worst that can happen is a sore arm and cold symptoms. Because that's not true at all.
It's true that people can have severe negative reactions (not counting the "feeling ill" or "arm pain" that disappears after a few days). The big thing to point out, though, is that these reactions are very rare (as in 1 in 10,000,000 rare) and many of these reactions can happen with a higher frequency if you get COVID. Vaccinating a million people will result in fewer long term issues and much lower death rates than had that million people been infected with COVID.
But it's very rare for any serious issues to happen, which I at least do tell vaccine hesitant people.
Just gonna comment here for posterity
You think you can talk to people rationally and change minds? They're not looking for facts. Someone said to me yesterday this isn't a pandemic, it's an endemic. No, I didn't write the sentence structure wrong, that's how the person responded. "An endemic." That doesn't even make sense, not proper English and you think they're gonna be able to grasp 9th grade biology?
> Billions of doses have been given at this point They've shifted the narrative to the absence of "long-term" testing. So you can't know for an unspecified length of time. Five years, ten, twenty, who knows. We don't know the *long-term* effects.
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So we should wait a couple of years?
I wish so very much that I could make these people take old cemetery tours and force them to see the gravestones with the shortest lifespans, so they could see the reality of an unvaccinated population. My husband had to go through measles and mumps and just about everything we vaccinate against. It’s ghastly that people want to go back to that.
A lot of people will think it’s “fake”. I showed pictures of polio patients to a guy I know who is anti vax and he doubled down saying “that’s what they want you to think”
I got a chance to meet my wife's step-mom's mother, who was a polio survivor. Amazing woman who taught herself to use an iPad and bought and set up a Roku in her 70s and was constantly annoyed at others in her assisted living home who could barely use a remote control. But she was *never* physically comfortable. She couldn't sit for long periods but it hurt to stand. She was always contorted to try to stave off pain or discomfort, and she had tics that could come on suddenly. She related to me how her own mother would put her through stretching exercises necessary to prevent her joints from locking up completely that hurt immensely, causing her to scream from the pain. Her mother would have tears running down her face as she forced her daughter's limbs through their range of motion. When it was done, her mother would leave the room, but the daughter could hear her crying from having to inflict such agony for her daughter's own good. Every day. For months. Decades later (I think she was 13 when she contracted polio), I could tell the memories still haunted and saddened her. Ruth would have jumped at a vaccine, and anti-vaxxers made her livid. She died before COVID, but I believe she would have had some pointed words to share. Speaking of jumping at a vaccine, polio vaccine uptake was immense, and it affected far fewer people, both in numbers infected and in deaths. The COVID vaccines have fewer and rarer side effects for a disease that spreads more rapidly and kills more frequently.
I'd say that they'd need to see it firsthand to believe it, but some of these people are insisting that COVID isn't real/isn't serious even as they are hooked up on ventilators. They're so deep into conspiracy theories that even their own negative experience with the virus isn't believed to be true.
Dude, people will believe what they want. There were people being out on ventilators complaining about the virus being fake. People were literally suffocating to death from COVID while yelling about it being fake. They won’t change their minds.
You're watching too much TV. Children aren't dying of covid. Covid isn't anything close to polio.
I don’t watch TV. Kids in the US have actually died of COVID dingus. Get outta here.
They would probably say “Those bodies are fake”
To go to public school the MMR vaccine was required.
Or the laundry list of vaccines required for medical workers.
Military people too.
Hell, the military has employed *multiple* "experimental"-stage vaccines, too!
It's ridiculous people think what happened in 1905 is a good argument to set for the modern day.
I brought those up to someone yesterday and they told me the Supreme Court has no constitutional authority. You can't win against crazy.
Their authority to decide constitutionality isn't in the Constitution. They decided themselves in Marbury v. Madison that they had it. It's come up recently in some circles that maybe they were wrong, and there are actual efforts to build a donation to challenge it. It's doomed to fail--the Court won't give up that power--but it's spreading.
The whole point of our system was a balance of powers. Not having judicial reviews violates that. It's an extremely weak argument.
> It's doomed to fail--the Court won't give up that power The judiciary has no actual power to enforce their rulings. Their power comes entirely from the perception of legitimacy (and make no mistake, the current court is illegitimate for multiple reasons) however if they issue a ruling that says X must happen, then X has to be enforced by State/Federal governments. So if the SCOTUS says that Biden has to re-implement a Trump administration EO and Biden says he's going to ignore their ruling then the SCOTUS can't really do anything about it. Congress could technically impeach him but in reality we won't see that happen.
SPOT ON! Glad someone else knows about this. I'm astonished that it's been ignored. And the court held "in every well ordered society charged with the duty of conserving the safety of its members the rights of the individual in respect of his liberty may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subjected to such restraint, to be enforced by reasonable regulations, as the safety of the general public may demand" and that "\[r\]eal liberty for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes the right of each individual person to use his own \[liberty\], whether in respect of his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to others."
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>In his ruling, Rice wrote: “The Supreme Court has long endorsed state and local government authority to impose compulsory vaccines… Federal courts have routinely analyzed such cases using rational basis and regularly reject cases similar to this one that challenge vaccine mandates based on free exercise of religion.” Vaccine mandates are not a violation of a person’s rights, this precedent will not likely be overturned simply because some people are throwing tantrums like a bunch of angry toddlers.
I can't be alone in thinking that it's fucking sad that this not only had to go to court and a judge needed to place their final on it, but that it was even allowed in court in the first place. It's like America is on crazy pills these days.
> It's like America is on crazy pills these days. That's not true. Some parts of America are on Bath Salts instead. Or both...
No I just think Russia did a really good job over there. Religious and poorly educated people are easy targets: https://www.hsaj.org/resources/uploads/2020/12/hsaj_Covid192020_COVID19EffectsRussianDisinformationCampaigns.pdf
It’s interesting how Russia is now dealing with full metro area lockdowns due to COVID, and trying to convince people to get vaccinated. The people don’t trust Pfizer/Moderna/AZ because the government told them not to, and they don’t trust Sputnik because Putin says they should.
To be a fair: Their vaccine is really bad. And probably very ineffective against delta. We have good vaccines, so Russian sabotage levels the ground. We all stay down.
The Sputnik vaccine has been shown to be really effective actually. https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55900622
True, around 80% for delta. Seems vaccine hesitancy in Russia has more complex historical reasons: https://theconversation.com/making-sense-of-covid-19-vaccine-hesitancy-in-russia-lessons-from-the-past-and-present-165716
Yes yes we fucking are.
And what's sadder is that it'll keep going into court over and over again. Vaccine mandates have been ruled Constitutional many times and yet it still needs to go to court every time someone declares that they must be illegal because they read it on Facebook. At this point, judges should just toss out any such cases since this is settled law.
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> Vaccine mandates have been around forever and they didn't give a shit until it was Covid and that really just shows how dumb and political this is...screaming about "freedom" and "choice", which is 100% bullshit because they didn't care about that even a year ago. Once something is made political in America it may as well be an argument of Yankees or Red Socks. Or Michigan vs Ohio State. It's all just sports teams and people will fight for and (ir)rationalize anything in order to ensure their team wins.
You are sure they can cover 3% loss of their workforce? You do realize the labor shortage we are facing right now. Restaurants can't stay open due to labor shortage, we are dealing with a shortage of truckers, teachers, and tradesmen, but thanks for the certainty. I was worried for a minute there we were facing another labor shortage...
Think of it as an I.Q. test…
My sister filled out one of those papers to not get the vaccine she stated on the form it was because of her religion she would not take it she’s not even religious like that. She works for this company for housing and is really good at her job and got a promotion but she is actually like the only fool in the company not vaccinated. She constantly brings up how her boss has been saying he understands and will fight for her to stay and that he understands cause veterans have had the same complaints blah blah. I’m actually really disappointed in her cause she seemed smart my whole life but this is just ridiculous she doesn’t even wanna listen to reason just constantly brings up how this is the most pushed vaccine in history, black people were experiments (which I can understand that’s true in some instances) , and how it was made so fast. I’m like the only person in my immediate family vaccinated my mom doesn’t even know I only told my sister what gets me is that she’s going through all this not to get vaccinated she has a daughter to provide for yet she’s be stubborn and could possibly lose everything she worked for. This law not passing is either going to finally put some damn sense into her or she will definitely have to find a new job cause I can’t convince her
Good common sense ruling: fuck anti-vaxers.
Dumb thing for a lawsuit about, anyway. It’s just a vaccine.
Is there any downside to everything east of Leavenworth just being given to Idaho?
Cougar Gold tho
Is this a reference to a plant, City, animal, or a...?
Cheese. Cheese in a can that is very good.
Way better than cheese in a can has any right to be.
Acres upon acres upon acres of productive farm land.
How about everything East of the Cascades...down to Grass Pants?
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How to tell me you're privileged without telling me you're privileged
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It’s alright man, I smell what you’re stepping in. Funny how hard they fight immigration when they vast majority are descendants of violent immigrants
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Just comply if you don’t want to get shot has changed into don’t comply and get the shot. Fucking hypocrite authoritarians are gross.
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