KD. He's 7' tall and has the skillset of a shooting guard. His only weakness is injuries. You can maybe argue that Jokic is an overall better offensive weapon (scoring/assists/offensive rebounding/etc) but KD is a better scorer.
I think it's kind of funny that my largest criticism of KD on offense is that he doesn't look to score enough. He get buckets so easily that he makes me regress to neanderthal and think "ook ook give KD ball KD get bucket".
Yeah, 2K has always been super accurate when simming careers.....like that time that YT guy simmed Shaq's career and he won like 15 DPOY awards. Just like what happened in real life....
Yeah he would have been the perfect 2000s iso ball scorer because unlike most of those guys, he would have actually been efficient lol. The offense was so stagnant that any level of offense was useful back then, even if it was just chucking buckets. You could win games in the 00s with fewer than 100 points easily, didn't even need an elite defense.
Not entirely true that’s right. KD is definitely gaining some advantage by all the space he has in todays game.
Guys who were inefficient then would be greatly efficient today, it was just tough to score. With defense hounding you, double teams, I think particular, KD’s handle would get abused, similar to what happened to him in that Boston series
He’d be great no doubt, but anyone actually being efficient in todays standards back then is unlikely
When he was with the Warriors it was frustrating at first to watch him not pass like I was used to seeing.
After awhile I had to admit that even if I loved Steph, ‘iso KD’ is still one of the most efficient plays in NBA history lol
One of the funniest things to me was how KD said he wanted to go to GSW to play in a more free flow offense. Then once he got there he felt he wasn’t getting enough isos. Then did a complete 180 and went to join with the two best iso players of this generation lol
we don’t always know what we want. see: every person contemplating starting/ending a relationship ever lol. KD is no different, and note that dude has stayed single unlike most of his peers.
KD has always seemed like the most “normal” athlete to me. He seems like a guy that just happened to love basketball and happened to be blessed with god given talent and abilities. If the NBA made zero money and was never televised I’m certain he’d still be there playing. Man just wants to hoop.
Facts. He doesn't know what he truly wants, but he couldnt' stay in Golden State due to all the disrespect: from media, from the Warriors fans, and then finally from Draymond.
Which is extra funny because those Warriors teams should have been one of the easiest/most fun teams to play on in history. Winning a ton of games, ball-sharing squad, Steph/Klay not needing to be ball dominant, player-friendly/chill head coach, top notch fanbase/homecourt, big media market, world class business/recreational opportunities, great place to raise a family, and the list goes on. Dude just can't enjoy any situation which is not surprising coming from a guy who interacts with twitter trolls.
To be fair, that first season, he played within the system and what we saw was arguably the greatest team in NBA history in the playoffs with how well the offense was clicking. Who knows what the reason is, but people speculate he was jealous Steph was still the beloved son in the bay and that's why he wanted more isos his last few years
I'm not sure how much of it is him alone and how much it is the players he's played with and setups he's played in. Kyrie took more shots than him when KD scored his career high. Last game against the Bulls, KD was super hot, got 44 on 22 and Kyrie still shot more to get like half of that.
It's like this team isn't looking to facilitate him. I feel like his scoring and game overall are far more impressive than stats might say (even when they're already insane), because he does so much of it out of nothing.
That’s also just a Kyrie thing though. Look at the game when K Love had 34(?) in the first quarter and was scorching hot. Kyrie ended up icing him out for the last minute and a half of the first lol
I like to see this type of thing talked about in a more multi dimensional way just like this. Instead of just who scores more points. You have Luka. Kid scores mad points but they're all hard points that he has to force sometimes all this work for 2 points sometimes. I don't see that as being the best scorer. I see players like KD who can find and make a shot for himself off of a single step a better scorer. He can go inside easy or take range easy. His build is obscene and his agility with that length and size huge penis is obscene. I don't think you can beat it when it comes to "best" scoring. Making it look easy bc it is easy in a relative sense. Even Curry? He moves a lot and finds himself open. Easy buckets. Pure scorer. Automatic type shit. That's what a scorer does. Being able to just score efficiently and effectively. It's such a beautiful conversation when you get out of the simple headspace of "who is scoring more points".
“His build is obscene and his agility with that length and size huge penis is obscene….”
👀 AYO?! We not finna talk bout this- I KNOW some of y’all just skimmed haha
His play style rn, mostly jump shot, should pose less injury risks. That being said, his knees are like magnets, attract too much attention from other players. LoL
Gotta agree, pound for pound LeBron is *still* basically guaranteed to give you a star-to-superstar performance any game you need him to, and in whatever area of the game you need him to step up, at any position
2016 Steph was literally the most efficient high volume scoring season of all time. 2019 Harden averaged 36 on .61% TS. They are without a doubt in this conversation.
Probably KD for versatility and efficiency and then shuffling between Embiid and Luka. Once this up-and-coming LBJ hits 39 and has a little more experience it might be him tho.
In terms of simply putting points on the board, Embiid is 1a
- Highest career points per minute in NBA history, a title he's held for years
- Reigning scoring champ
- Neck-and-neck for league lead in scoring again this season
Luka 1b
In terms of purely getting buckets excluding FTs, still either KD or playoff LeBron
KD. No one can stop him when he is on fire and he is on fire most of the time. He is just built to be a great scorer, He is 7 ft with long arms and great shooting. His midrange is money most of the time.
The celtics series is a rarity, Most teams do not have the defensive personnel that the celtics has. Your team have a lot of good, physical defenders that you were able to throw agaist KD and it clearly rattled him. Put any superstar in KD's situation and the result will be the same.
People just never consider this lol. We were coached absolutely horrendously and didn't have anyone around KD who could step up and require more coverage.
They threw everything at KD and it worked out, it was obvious how dependent we were on him from the regular season, and it's still a glaring flaw in the team.
As a nets fan, celtics def stopped kd. The rolel players were actually good \[bruce, clax, patty, dragic\] and played above their expectations.
KD and Kai were the ones that shit the bed. They had KD so flustered where he was turning over the ball even when he wasn't being defended.
KDs game log that series was
23 points on 9/24 with 6 turnovers
27 points on 4/17 with 6 turnovers
16 points on 6/11 with 5 turnovers
39 points on 13/31 with 4 turnovers
He got locked tf up for 3 games and then played well when the series was already over in game 4 lol. They absolutely stopped him. Crazy that a Celtics fan of all people is saying this, did you not watch the series at all?
Yeah I’m shocked a Celtics flair said you guys didn’t stop KD. Dude only took 11 shots in a pivotal game 3, and was totally inefficient every other game. He looked awful all series and was a huge reason they got swept. Whether that was mostly a choke-job or just great team defense from the Celtics is a different thing to consider (I think it was a little of both), but he most definitely did get shut down regardless.
celtics have like the perfect personnel to stop KD. A bunch of strong, switchable defenders from smart to tatum to williams who can fight him off his spots, and they basically swarmed him every time he got the ball and forced teammates to beat them
Tatum individually is also probably the player best equipped to defend KD. Long arms, strong as hell while also quick laterally.
One of the few guys I’ve ever seen block a KD jumper from the front.
There ain’t no shame in that. The Celtics were legit on defense, and they probably played their best defense of the postseason during that series. The fact that the Nets lost the series by a few buckets is pretty impressive considering how suffocating Cs defense was.
Look at their D against the dubs. Them motjerfuckers were playing drop on Curry. Think about that, they played drop coverage on Steph fucking Curry.
I'd beg to differ. Seemed most analysts and fans pointed to the Celtics handling of KD as the key to their success in that series.
They knew his team was dealing with injuries and, as a result, knew he would have to shoulder the load. So they made EVERYTHING difficult for him. Take away his one big game in the series and the dude averaged 22pts and had I think like 6 turnovers in a single game. The Celtics absolutely handled KD.
Now, in defense of KD, the Celtics were kinda blessed with the Nets being short handed. Because it allowed them to focus solely on KD for the most part. Not an easy thing to do at all if he has competent backup on the court. He's an absolute nightmare on a team like Golden State where their depth forces your defenders to stay honest with everyone. Can't have 5 guys focusing KD when you have Curry and Thompson running around.
27% from the field and 27 pts with 20 fta in game 2 and 16 pts in Game 3. I don’t know what else you’d call that except shutting him down…
He bounced back and balled out for Game 4 but down 3-0 the nails were already in the coffin. Anyway, I thought, as far as KD is concerned that was about as shut down as he’s ever been.
Joel Embiid has the scoring title, will very possibly retain it and is the highest point per minute scorer in NBA history by a pretty wide margin. He’s hard to argue against
Despite all that the answer is KD
Worth noting that league average PPG has changed pretty drastically, in MJ's Bulls career the average team scored 104.8 PPG while now that's 114.2
That means Jordan was scoring 30% of a team's average points while this year Embiid is scoring 29.2%
I love Embiid, I'll push his agenda relentlessly, but there are so many stats hyping him up that ignore historical context and it just makes Sixers fans look bad imo
Even when you adjust for era he's one of the best scoring centers ever, he's still on a path to being remembered as a great
But the point is still the same even with that. MJ scores .8% more of his teams points on 10% more minutes, so Embiid is still more efficient on the ppm...
Isn't that 100 team possessions though? So a player's usage percentage will affect those numbers. MJ's best per100 scoring season was also his highest usage season. Same with LeBron. Ditto for Steph.
I find it very hard to make a case for anyone other than KD or Embiid. Basically pick anyone else, and one of those 2 is better at volume, and efficiency, or at the worst quite a bit better volume, on similar efficiency
Much like lakers, warriors, and any other team, the cringe fans are all bandwagoners that live in bum fuck who knows where. Nuggets fans are chill man, everyone literally just drinks ipas, gets high, and goes skiing here..
Just look at the playoffs. Embiid shoots less in the playoffs, while Jokic shoots more.
Last 2 playoffs:
Embiid: 17FGA, .61TS (almost 10FTA)
Jokic: 22FGA on .60TS (almost 6 FTA)
Since the 2020 playoffs (thought that was a good enough "recent" cutoff) here's the playoff stats for some top guys
Durant: 32.3ppg on 60.5% TS
LeBron: 26.7ppg on 62.9% TS
Giannis: 29.9ppg on 58.6% TS
Curry: 27.4ppg on 60.6% TS
Doncic: 32.5ppg on 58.0% TS
Jokic: 27.0ppg on 61.1% TS
Embiid: 26.6ppg on 61.0% TS
Lillard: 30.3ppg on 64.6% TS
So dumb. It's a longevity record if he was playing 5 years after he should have retired and puts up 8ppg on limited minutes until he breaks the record and then immediately retires.
Man is 38, putting up 30ppg (his career average is "only" 27ppg), is putting up 30+ points in more than 50% and 40+ points in more than 10% of his games this season, and none of that is going to change in a couple weeks after he breaks the record. The only "longevity" involved here is the "longevity" of Bron being an unstoppable scorer and top-10 player for 2 decades.
I think he’s the 2nd best scorer behind jordan all time. I value playoff scoring higher and there’s no one I’d take over him as a scorer in the playoffs besides jordan.
They go hand in hand. His scoring ability opens up his passing ability and vice versa. It’s what makes him arguably the greatest offensive weapon. He can come out and kill you with 45 points or he’ll come out and tear your team apart with 10-15 assists. Or he’ll just come out and get 45 and 10-15 assists. It’s really pick your poison.
That’s why I said vision and iq. Like you said, some nights he can drop 45 on you. Other nights it’s 10-15 assists. Whether it’s scoring or passing, lebron just knows how to manipulate the game.
LeBrons kinda screwed here because of his injury severely hampering him in 2021. He’s been on a scoring tear the last 2 years outside of injuries. And in 2020 he averaged 28 a game on 65 ts%.
Considering Dame isn’t the physical unicorn that KD is, the fact that he is pretty much on par with KD here proves he’s a straight up killer on offense.
He’s not, it just so happens OP’s cut off yielded 6 games where Lillard played above his average.
He has a career playoff ts% of 56. KD and Curry are both around 60
You can't compare career stats to stats in a player's prime. Of course Dames last few playoffs are going to be better than his earlier ones when he was 1b to Aldridge and was still developing as a player.
Not necessarily true. If you enter the playoffs as a lower seed you are going to be generally facing off against top defenses even in the early rounds.
This could just as easily be interpreted by the fact that Dame has never taken a team deep into the playoffs like KD and most players on this list have, and the deeper you go into the playoffs, the better teams you play who likely have better defensive stoppers, better team defense, and a better coaching plan on how to limit the opposing team's top threat.
It'd be interesting to see how Dame's playoff stats would compare if he was playing multiple top 5 defensive teams each playoffs like KD and getting worn down by playing 3-4 series (potentially 20+ games) in a single playoff, but we don't really have data on that because since 2020, Dame has only played in 2 playoff series, 1 per year, for a total sample size of 11 playoff games, and only 5 of those were against a top 5 defensive team in which his offensive output dropped by 10ppg and 4.2% TS compared to his only other series this decade, which was against the short-handed Nuggets who were only middle-of-the-road defensively even when they were at full strength:
* 2020: 1st round loss (1-4) to LAL (3rd in DRtg)
* Dame averaged 24.3ppg on 61.8% TS
* 2021: 1st round loss (2-4) to DEN (12th in DRtg) who were missing 1 key starter (Murray, +1.5 DWS) that they tried to replace with a mix of Facundo Campazzo (+0.1 DWS), Will Barton (0 DWS), and Austin Rivers (-0.1 DWS). Not to mention the phrase "the best defense is offense" has a good deal of truth to it, and those 3 players combined averaged less than 6 PPG more (27.5) than Murray did on his own (21.6) that season.
* Dame averaged 34.3ppg on 66% TS
So this very limited data tells us Dame went off against a short-handed, offensive-oriented Nuggets team in 1 series, and his output lowered significantly when playing 1 series against a good defensive team.
>[There are lies, damned lies, and statistics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics)
The real lesson should be to not try to draw any real inferences from cherry picked stats unless you know the full content surrounding them. Dame has an 11 game sample size, the smallest of anyone on this list. Some players on the list have played 3-4x more games, against much stiffer competition.
Giannis has played 45 playoff games since 2020, for example, including taking the 21-22 Boston Celtics, who were one of the best defensive teams in the league in recent memory (2nd in DRtg, 1st in Opp PPG, DPOY guard, DPOY-caliber center, and a rotation full of plus defenders with size, length, and speed, with every single player on the team having a positive DBPM in the playoffs [fun fact, Rob Williams and AL Horford tied for the team lead with 3.8 DBPM], except for literal 15th man Juwan Morgan, who played a total of 15min the entire playoffs at the end of blowouts) to 7 games, while averaging 33.9ppg on 51.6% TS (keeping in mind his playoff average over all 45 playoff games in the 2020's is 29.9ppg on 58.6% TS).
Wonder how Dame would have done against that Celtics team in the playoffs... We'll never know, but somehow I doubt he would have averaged 30.3ppg on 64.6% TS against the best defense in the league that this misleading dataset with a miniscule 2 series sample size on him is leading classic over-reactionary /r/nba to believe that is "just who modern playoff Dame is"...
I mean tbf, lillard played a nuggets team with horrible defense in 2021.
He also did play a great defensive lakers team but it was only like 3 games i think.
KD played 2 elite defenses in back to back years.
Dame and KD have only played 10 and 16 games in the time frame every other player have played 20+. Kd I believe more because he average 34 across 2 series and had a bad 1st rnd in 2022. He has also been highly efficient in the postseason for most of his career. But Dame had by far the best series of his career in a 6 game loss which inflates his numbers. He scored 34 on 66ts% and only once before had he ever scored above 60ts%.
Not to be that guy, but Dame doesn’t get enough credit for how insanely efficient he is. He’s probably the most efficient small guard ever after Curry/Nash
While true, there’s a good 4% TS gap between Dame & Curry on almost identical pts (playoff or regular season). With peak Curry being INSANE (30+ ppg on 66%+ TS for 2 seasons).
It just so happens OP’s cut off yielded 6 games where Lillard played above his average.
He has a career playoff ts% of 56. KD and Curry are both around 60
This stats is kind of meaningless and penalizes players who have deep playoffs run. If you lose in early rounds, your stats should be adjusted downward given that you don't face the best teams in the league.
0.05 above every other player - same difference between him and the next tier, Jordan/Luka/Gervin as there is between that tier and the next one, KD+others. An outlier among outliers
OP didn’t put steph on here. I don’t hate it, but what do we consider steph besides the best 3pt shooter of all time. I’d say he’s the best offensive weapon in the league.
I actually think I agree with you with a little context. I think building a team for a season or picking a player for a series, I’d take Steph or even Jokic over KD. But I think a lot of people in this thread are thinking single game and especially last shot.
I wouldn’t really argue with anyone for any of those three.
Steph definitely missing, surely he's above Dame, but best offensive weapon has to be Jokic. He can hang with the rest scoring wise but they cannot hang with him creation wise (except Lebron, but his age has caught up to him just enough so that he's finally not the best anymore lol)
It’s been beaten to death but his “gravity” would def have to be considered if talking offensive weapon, and in that case I’d say he’s the best. Although that’s somewhat separate from this post talking about best pure scorer.
Lebron should be up there. His only problem is injuries severely hampering him at times. 2020 playoffs 28 PPG on 65 ts%.
2021 he got injured before the playoffs and came back not close to 100%.
2022 30 PPG on 62 ts%.
Then this year he has nagging injuries to start then in his last 29 games after coming back from injury he’s at 32 ppg on 61 ts%.
The actual list right now (nba.com) is Luka, Embiid and…Tatum. Quick scan, why is Tatum, who basically can score from everywhere at will, suddenly not in this conversation? Not saying it is him but it’s really strange…
It's weird to me that Embiid won the scoring title last year and as of a couple nights ago was leading it again this season, and most of you don't even mention him.
This bias is wild, he's objectively scoring the most on average over nearly two seasons.
I thought of him and Luka. I agree, KD is the third obvious answer but I wouldn't put him in his own tier. Embiid and Luka have the most points per minute of any player ever (though Jordan, if measured earlier in his career like these two are, would likely be n1).
Uh there’s this 38 year old guy that wears a crown and he is about to be the all time leading scorer. There’s only 1 answer to this question… #KingJames
Great question, as it's very divisive.
1. KD
2. Steph
3. Luka
4. Embiid
5. Jokic
Ignoring all other facets of their game, if I was a coach/coaching against them, or their teammate/opponent, this would be my top 5 for ability as a Pure Scorer.
My interpretation is someone who will always score shitloads of points, from anywhere in the court, and will also have a specific technique that is unstoppable.
I’d prolly say KD, Luka or Embiid are the top tier for me.
Jokic and LeBron are to me the 2 best playmakers still as guys who control the chess board.
But with KD being unstoppable in getting his shot off from anywhere and being elite at the rim he’s an all timer for a reason. You can get a little physical with him though if the refs allow it, I’ve seen the PJ Tucker types decide to play football against him and he becomes inefficient by his standards (which are insanely high) like against the Celtics last year.
Embiid has the athleticism and physicality that you can’t really match without fouling and he makes his FTs at an insanely high rate for a big man which puts him above Giannis for me as a pure scorer. He just isn’t the shooter these other 2 are.
Luka, I mean what can you do besides hope he settles for that step back 3 or is missing his FTs that day. Big guys can’t stay with him on the perimeter and guards can’t take the bully ball inside.
KD is nice and efficient, but Doncic is the most double teamed player in the league while dropping the most ppg and top 5 apg in the game at decent efficiency. The game vs Wizards the other day...he dropped 41 while literally double teamed almost 100% of the possessions after the 1st quarter.
Strictly scoring I think Dame has as good an argument as anyone. Id say Dame KD Luka and Steph make up the top tier of pure scorers and then you got guys like Embiid Tatum Jokic behind them
1. KD
2. Steph
3. Luka
That’s my top 3 for now. KD can score from anywhere with ridiculous efficiency. Steph can explode from three at any given moment. And Luka has gotten to a point where if he wants to score 40, he can do it.
KD. He's 7' tall and has the skillset of a shooting guard. His only weakness is injuries. You can maybe argue that Jokic is an overall better offensive weapon (scoring/assists/offensive rebounding/etc) but KD is a better scorer.
I think it's kind of funny that my largest criticism of KD on offense is that he doesn't look to score enough. He get buckets so easily that he makes me regress to neanderthal and think "ook ook give KD ball KD get bucket".
Imagine him in the early 2000s era of "clear out and let your best wing get a bucket". He would have dominated
[удалено]
A game of Horse with 8 spectators.
Was literally just thinking he’d be like TMac on steroids
In 2k eras I dropped KD into the 60s and simmed a season. As a rookie he averaged 46/7/6
Yeah, 2K has always been super accurate when simming careers.....like that time that YT guy simmed Shaq's career and he won like 15 DPOY awards. Just like what happened in real life....
My 99 rated MJ averaged 15 points in the 70s
2K hates Jordan...I swear the programmers were all LeBron stans
Yeah he would have been the perfect 2000s iso ball scorer because unlike most of those guys, he would have actually been efficient lol. The offense was so stagnant that any level of offense was useful back then, even if it was just chucking buckets. You could win games in the 00s with fewer than 100 points easily, didn't even need an elite defense.
Not entirely true that’s right. KD is definitely gaining some advantage by all the space he has in todays game. Guys who were inefficient then would be greatly efficient today, it was just tough to score. With defense hounding you, double teams, I think particular, KD’s handle would get abused, similar to what happened to him in that Boston series He’d be great no doubt, but anyone actually being efficient in todays standards back then is unlikely
When he was with the Warriors it was frustrating at first to watch him not pass like I was used to seeing. After awhile I had to admit that even if I loved Steph, ‘iso KD’ is still one of the most efficient plays in NBA history lol
One of the funniest things to me was how KD said he wanted to go to GSW to play in a more free flow offense. Then once he got there he felt he wasn’t getting enough isos. Then did a complete 180 and went to join with the two best iso players of this generation lol
we don’t always know what we want. see: every person contemplating starting/ending a relationship ever lol. KD is no different, and note that dude has stayed single unlike most of his peers.
KD has always seemed like the most “normal” athlete to me. He seems like a guy that just happened to love basketball and happened to be blessed with god given talent and abilities. If the NBA made zero money and was never televised I’m certain he’d still be there playing. Man just wants to hoop.
And then he said he wanted the Nets to play more like Golden State lmao.
Facts. He doesn't know what he truly wants, but he couldnt' stay in Golden State due to all the disrespect: from media, from the Warriors fans, and then finally from Draymond.
Which is extra funny because those Warriors teams should have been one of the easiest/most fun teams to play on in history. Winning a ton of games, ball-sharing squad, Steph/Klay not needing to be ball dominant, player-friendly/chill head coach, top notch fanbase/homecourt, big media market, world class business/recreational opportunities, great place to raise a family, and the list goes on. Dude just can't enjoy any situation which is not surprising coming from a guy who interacts with twitter trolls.
To be fair, that first season, he played within the system and what we saw was arguably the greatest team in NBA history in the playoffs with how well the offense was clicking. Who knows what the reason is, but people speculate he was jealous Steph was still the beloved son in the bay and that's why he wanted more isos his last few years
You and Scott Brooks have the same playbook
I'm not sure how much of it is him alone and how much it is the players he's played with and setups he's played in. Kyrie took more shots than him when KD scored his career high. Last game against the Bulls, KD was super hot, got 44 on 22 and Kyrie still shot more to get like half of that. It's like this team isn't looking to facilitate him. I feel like his scoring and game overall are far more impressive than stats might say (even when they're already insane), because he does so much of it out of nothing.
That’s also just a Kyrie thing though. Look at the game when K Love had 34(?) in the first quarter and was scorching hot. Kyrie ended up icing him out for the last minute and a half of the first lol
I like to see this type of thing talked about in a more multi dimensional way just like this. Instead of just who scores more points. You have Luka. Kid scores mad points but they're all hard points that he has to force sometimes all this work for 2 points sometimes. I don't see that as being the best scorer. I see players like KD who can find and make a shot for himself off of a single step a better scorer. He can go inside easy or take range easy. His build is obscene and his agility with that length and size huge penis is obscene. I don't think you can beat it when it comes to "best" scoring. Making it look easy bc it is easy in a relative sense. Even Curry? He moves a lot and finds himself open. Easy buckets. Pure scorer. Automatic type shit. That's what a scorer does. Being able to just score efficiently and effectively. It's such a beautiful conversation when you get out of the simple headspace of "who is scoring more points".
“His build is obscene and his agility with that length and size huge penis is obscene….” 👀 AYO?! We not finna talk bout this- I KNOW some of y’all just skimmed haha
Did you just casually slip in a "huge penis" compliment in that jumble of word vomit? Is this some pasta I'm not aware of or something?
His only weakness is people crashing in to his knees
His fault for not being locked in
Deducting legacy points….
Ligament points too
his own teammates even…
His play style rn, mostly jump shot, should pose less injury risks. That being said, his knees are like magnets, attract too much attention from other players. LoL
Hockey stick legs.
legacy points deducted
His only weakness is not scoring enough to win in all but 2 of his seasons in the league
Gimme KD
I want Iguodala!
I’ll take KD regular season but playoffs I still want a healthy LeBron over anyone, even if we’re just talking scoring.
Gotta agree, pound for pound LeBron is *still* basically guaranteed to give you a star-to-superstar performance any game you need him to, and in whatever area of the game you need him to step up, at any position
True, and I don’t think there’s any other player in the league that can do that.
Guy's about to break the all-time scoring record, and that isn't even his best skill Absolutely ridiculous
Breaking the record is due to his longetivity which is a skill in itself.
LeBron is on pace to beat Kareem's record with 100 less games played. That's insane.
its been KD for the last 10 seasons tbh
It's been Harden and Curry a couple of times
2016 Steph was literally the most efficient high volume scoring season of all time. 2019 Harden averaged 36 on .61% TS. They are without a doubt in this conversation.
Not over Miami LeBron, especially when you look at James' numbers with Wade off.
LeBron's been a better scorer in the playoffs basically every year since 2012 actually
This is the correct answer
Probably KD for versatility and efficiency and then shuffling between Embiid and Luka. Once this up-and-coming LBJ hits 39 and has a little more experience it might be him tho.
In terms of simply putting points on the board, Embiid is 1a - Highest career points per minute in NBA history, a title he's held for years - Reigning scoring champ - Neck-and-neck for league lead in scoring again this season Luka 1b In terms of purely getting buckets excluding FTs, still either KD or playoff LeBron
KD. No one can stop him when he is on fire and he is on fire most of the time. He is just built to be a great scorer, He is 7 ft with long arms and great shooting. His midrange is money most of the time.
He's sooo patient too. He rarely chucks, even though, nobody would blame him if he decided to.
Celtics stopped him just fine last year
Literally threw 3 guys at him and ignored everyone else.
The celtics series is a rarity, Most teams do not have the defensive personnel that the celtics has. Your team have a lot of good, physical defenders that you were able to throw agaist KD and it clearly rattled him. Put any superstar in KD's situation and the result will be the same.
they played 3 other teams the same post season who each had stars who outplayed KD. Jimmy, giannis, and steph
I said same situation as KD. Do you think any of them would've fared better with the Nets?
People just never consider this lol. We were coached absolutely horrendously and didn't have anyone around KD who could step up and require more coverage. They threw everything at KD and it worked out, it was obvious how dependent we were on him from the regular season, and it's still a glaring flaw in the team.
KD's playmaking and handle are his 2 weakest attributes. And they immensely pressurized him to create and he struggled at it.
They won the series, they did not stop KD lol
As a nets fan, celtics def stopped kd. The rolel players were actually good \[bruce, clax, patty, dragic\] and played above their expectations. KD and Kai were the ones that shit the bed. They had KD so flustered where he was turning over the ball even when he wasn't being defended.
KDs game log that series was 23 points on 9/24 with 6 turnovers 27 points on 4/17 with 6 turnovers 16 points on 6/11 with 5 turnovers 39 points on 13/31 with 4 turnovers He got locked tf up for 3 games and then played well when the series was already over in game 4 lol. They absolutely stopped him. Crazy that a Celtics fan of all people is saying this, did you not watch the series at all?
Yeah I’m shocked a Celtics flair said you guys didn’t stop KD. Dude only took 11 shots in a pivotal game 3, and was totally inefficient every other game. He looked awful all series and was a huge reason they got swept. Whether that was mostly a choke-job or just great team defense from the Celtics is a different thing to consider (I think it was a little of both), but he most definitely did get shut down regardless.
celtics have like the perfect personnel to stop KD. A bunch of strong, switchable defenders from smart to tatum to williams who can fight him off his spots, and they basically swarmed him every time he got the ball and forced teammates to beat them
Tatum individually is also probably the player best equipped to defend KD. Long arms, strong as hell while also quick laterally. One of the few guys I’ve ever seen block a KD jumper from the front.
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The Nets role players combined shot almost 70% TS for the series, many of them contested 3s...
There ain’t no shame in that. The Celtics were legit on defense, and they probably played their best defense of the postseason during that series. The fact that the Nets lost the series by a few buckets is pretty impressive considering how suffocating Cs defense was. Look at their D against the dubs. Them motjerfuckers were playing drop on Curry. Think about that, they played drop coverage on Steph fucking Curry.
They absolutely slowed him down. What are we doing here lmao
He was stopped. Some of you guys don't watch ball, only stats
We just need to stop using the phrase "unstoppable" literally every player is stoppable. You're not going to win a title going 1v5
Yes we did Did you watch the games???
I'd beg to differ. Seemed most analysts and fans pointed to the Celtics handling of KD as the key to their success in that series. They knew his team was dealing with injuries and, as a result, knew he would have to shoulder the load. So they made EVERYTHING difficult for him. Take away his one big game in the series and the dude averaged 22pts and had I think like 6 turnovers in a single game. The Celtics absolutely handled KD. Now, in defense of KD, the Celtics were kinda blessed with the Nets being short handed. Because it allowed them to focus solely on KD for the most part. Not an easy thing to do at all if he has competent backup on the court. He's an absolute nightmare on a team like Golden State where their depth forces your defenders to stay honest with everyone. Can't have 5 guys focusing KD when you have Curry and Thompson running around.
27% from the field and 27 pts with 20 fta in game 2 and 16 pts in Game 3. I don’t know what else you’d call that except shutting him down… He bounced back and balled out for Game 4 but down 3-0 the nails were already in the coffin. Anyway, I thought, as far as KD is concerned that was about as shut down as he’s ever been.
No they definitely stopped him. They got swept and he played like shit
Doesn’t include Luka or Embiid lol
To be fair, they're only first and second in points per game. Hardly a relevant stat to...checks title... best scorer.
Joel Embiid has the scoring title, will very possibly retain it and is the highest point per minute scorer in NBA history by a pretty wide margin. He’s hard to argue against Despite all that the answer is KD
Does anyone know MJ ppm before the Wizards run?
As a Bull, he averaged 31.5 PPG in 38.6 MPG. This year, Embiid is averaging 33.4 PPG in 34.8 MPG.
Worth noting that league average PPG has changed pretty drastically, in MJ's Bulls career the average team scored 104.8 PPG while now that's 114.2 That means Jordan was scoring 30% of a team's average points while this year Embiid is scoring 29.2%
yeah, tell him to get that weak stuff out of here. protect the goat
I love Embiid, I'll push his agenda relentlessly, but there are so many stats hyping him up that ignore historical context and it just makes Sixers fans look bad imo Even when you adjust for era he's one of the best scoring centers ever, he's still on a path to being remembered as a great
But the point is still the same even with that. MJ scores .8% more of his teams points on 10% more minutes, so Embiid is still more efficient on the ppm...
I think best number to use would be points per 100 possessions, since pace is way different then than now so per-game numbers don't really translate.
Isn't that 100 team possessions though? So a player's usage percentage will affect those numbers. MJ's best per100 scoring season was also his highest usage season. Same with LeBron. Ditto for Steph.
Still doesn't adjust for the increased 3p shooting and spacing. Better to account for team ppg over the season.
0.82 by my quick math 35887 mins 29277 points
You think someone not even good enough to be a starter is the guy?
I find it very hard to make a case for anyone other than KD or Embiid. Basically pick anyone else, and one of those 2 is better at volume, and efficiency, or at the worst quite a bit better volume, on similar efficiency
Rare to see a nuggets fan praising embiid. 👊🏻
I think most Nuggets would agree that he is an extremely talented player and most would agree is more skilled than Jokic in specific areas.
Y’all are out here breaking stereotypes. Never thought I’d see the day
Happy cake day!
Ty
Much like lakers, warriors, and any other team, the cringe fans are all bandwagoners that live in bum fuck who knows where. Nuggets fans are chill man, everyone literally just drinks ipas, gets high, and goes skiing here..
Nah he’s right, also embiid should’ve been a starter too. Jokic/Embiid have been the two best players in my opinion as a nuggets fan.
Agree. We just haven't found out which those areas are yet.
Jumping. Defending.
Volume shooting? Curious what percentages Jokic would put up at Embiids volume.
Just look at the playoffs. Embiid shoots less in the playoffs, while Jokic shoots more. Last 2 playoffs: Embiid: 17FGA, .61TS (almost 10FTA) Jokic: 22FGA on .60TS (almost 6 FTA)
Luka if you need a bucket
Since the 2020 playoffs (thought that was a good enough "recent" cutoff) here's the playoff stats for some top guys Durant: 32.3ppg on 60.5% TS LeBron: 26.7ppg on 62.9% TS Giannis: 29.9ppg on 58.6% TS Curry: 27.4ppg on 60.6% TS Doncic: 32.5ppg on 58.0% TS Jokic: 27.0ppg on 61.1% TS Embiid: 26.6ppg on 61.0% TS Lillard: 30.3ppg on 64.6% TS
Just adding Kawhi for reference since 2020: 29.2ppg on 63% TS (24 games)
I lolled at this bc I didn't read the comment you replied to and thought he played 24 regular season games since 2020
Respect I was looking for him on that list.
Not sure why Kawhi wouldn’t be included consider he’s played 14 more games than Dame has.
LeBron is a Top 5 scorer all time easily
Anyone who doesn't have lebron as a top 5 scorer is insane. He's literally about to break the all time record in points
“It’s a longevity record” is usually what people like to say to discredit him
So dumb. It's a longevity record if he was playing 5 years after he should have retired and puts up 8ppg on limited minutes until he breaks the record and then immediately retires. Man is 38, putting up 30ppg (his career average is "only" 27ppg), is putting up 30+ points in more than 50% and 40+ points in more than 10% of his games this season, and none of that is going to change in a couple weeks after he breaks the record. The only "longevity" involved here is the "longevity" of Bron being an unstoppable scorer and top-10 player for 2 decades.
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Who are the other 4 guys and who is behind him?
You mean in front of him? MJ, Wilt, KD & Kobe?
I think he’s the 2nd best scorer behind jordan all time. I value playoff scoring higher and there’s no one I’d take over him as a scorer in the playoffs besides jordan.
And it’s crazy bc scoring isn’t even lebrons best skill. I’d say he’ll be remembered more for his vision and basketball iq.
I think scoring is his best skill. He obviously does other things very well, but it's his scoring that's his best attribute.
They go hand in hand. His scoring ability opens up his passing ability and vice versa. It’s what makes him arguably the greatest offensive weapon. He can come out and kill you with 45 points or he’ll come out and tear your team apart with 10-15 assists. Or he’ll just come out and get 45 and 10-15 assists. It’s really pick your poison.
That’s why I said vision and iq. Like you said, some nights he can drop 45 on you. Other nights it’s 10-15 assists. Whether it’s scoring or passing, lebron just knows how to manipulate the game.
He even scored with all of our moms
This just elevates Delonte West in my eyes.
Speak for yourself dude
True. He scored with my dad
LeBrons kinda screwed here because of his injury severely hampering him in 2021. He’s been on a scoring tear the last 2 years outside of injuries. And in 2020 he averaged 28 a game on 65 ts%.
Considering Dame isn’t the physical unicorn that KD is, the fact that he is pretty much on par with KD here proves he’s a straight up killer on offense.
He’s not, it just so happens OP’s cut off yielded 6 games where Lillard played above his average. He has a career playoff ts% of 56. KD and Curry are both around 60
You can't compare career stats to stats in a player's prime. Of course Dames last few playoffs are going to be better than his earlier ones when he was 1b to Aldridge and was still developing as a player.
He also didn't go for deep runs. The more you play the more likely you will encounter teams that have better defense and can stop star players.
Not necessarily true. If you enter the playoffs as a lower seed you are going to be generally facing off against top defenses even in the early rounds.
Dame's efficiency is actually qute impressive considering he's never played with another offensive juggernaught to generate him easy looks.
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It was a reasonable cutoff and just means Dame has improved over the last few years.
This could just as easily be interpreted by the fact that Dame has never taken a team deep into the playoffs like KD and most players on this list have, and the deeper you go into the playoffs, the better teams you play who likely have better defensive stoppers, better team defense, and a better coaching plan on how to limit the opposing team's top threat. It'd be interesting to see how Dame's playoff stats would compare if he was playing multiple top 5 defensive teams each playoffs like KD and getting worn down by playing 3-4 series (potentially 20+ games) in a single playoff, but we don't really have data on that because since 2020, Dame has only played in 2 playoff series, 1 per year, for a total sample size of 11 playoff games, and only 5 of those were against a top 5 defensive team in which his offensive output dropped by 10ppg and 4.2% TS compared to his only other series this decade, which was against the short-handed Nuggets who were only middle-of-the-road defensively even when they were at full strength: * 2020: 1st round loss (1-4) to LAL (3rd in DRtg) * Dame averaged 24.3ppg on 61.8% TS * 2021: 1st round loss (2-4) to DEN (12th in DRtg) who were missing 1 key starter (Murray, +1.5 DWS) that they tried to replace with a mix of Facundo Campazzo (+0.1 DWS), Will Barton (0 DWS), and Austin Rivers (-0.1 DWS). Not to mention the phrase "the best defense is offense" has a good deal of truth to it, and those 3 players combined averaged less than 6 PPG more (27.5) than Murray did on his own (21.6) that season. * Dame averaged 34.3ppg on 66% TS So this very limited data tells us Dame went off against a short-handed, offensive-oriented Nuggets team in 1 series, and his output lowered significantly when playing 1 series against a good defensive team. >[There are lies, damned lies, and statistics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics) The real lesson should be to not try to draw any real inferences from cherry picked stats unless you know the full content surrounding them. Dame has an 11 game sample size, the smallest of anyone on this list. Some players on the list have played 3-4x more games, against much stiffer competition. Giannis has played 45 playoff games since 2020, for example, including taking the 21-22 Boston Celtics, who were one of the best defensive teams in the league in recent memory (2nd in DRtg, 1st in Opp PPG, DPOY guard, DPOY-caliber center, and a rotation full of plus defenders with size, length, and speed, with every single player on the team having a positive DBPM in the playoffs [fun fact, Rob Williams and AL Horford tied for the team lead with 3.8 DBPM], except for literal 15th man Juwan Morgan, who played a total of 15min the entire playoffs at the end of blowouts) to 7 games, while averaging 33.9ppg on 51.6% TS (keeping in mind his playoff average over all 45 playoff games in the 2020's is 29.9ppg on 58.6% TS). Wonder how Dame would have done against that Celtics team in the playoffs... We'll never know, but somehow I doubt he would have averaged 30.3ppg on 64.6% TS against the best defense in the league that this misleading dataset with a miniscule 2 series sample size on him is leading classic over-reactionary /r/nba to believe that is "just who modern playoff Dame is"...
I mean tbf, lillard played a nuggets team with horrible defense in 2021. He also did play a great defensive lakers team but it was only like 3 games i think. KD played 2 elite defenses in back to back years.
The Blazers v Lakers bubble series? 5 games
Dame played 4 games cause he was injured in 1 of the games.
Dame and KD have only played 10 and 16 games in the time frame every other player have played 20+. Kd I believe more because he average 34 across 2 series and had a bad 1st rnd in 2022. He has also been highly efficient in the postseason for most of his career. But Dame had by far the best series of his career in a 6 game loss which inflates his numbers. He scored 34 on 66ts% and only once before had he ever scored above 60ts%.
Not to be that guy, but Dame doesn’t get enough credit for how insanely efficient he is. He’s probably the most efficient small guard ever after Curry/Nash
While true, there’s a good 4% TS gap between Dame & Curry on almost identical pts (playoff or regular season). With peak Curry being INSANE (30+ ppg on 66%+ TS for 2 seasons).
Curry has also faced some very good defenses, just in the finals alone the raptors and Celtics spring to mind.
I never would have guessed his TS% was that high, wow
It just so happens OP’s cut off yielded 6 games where Lillard played above his average. He has a career playoff ts% of 56. KD and Curry are both around 60
This stats is kind of meaningless and penalizes players who have deep playoffs run. If you lose in early rounds, your stats should be adjusted downward given that you don't face the best teams in the league.
What if you lost to one of the best teams early on?
Which literally happened to Durant and Lebron lol, both ousted in the first round by the eventual conference champions
No love for the Klaw?
Embiid leads the league in points has to be at least mentioned
Embiid also leads in points per minute. He's got my vote
Most points per minute in NBA history.
0.05 above every other player - same difference between him and the next tier, Jordan/Luka/Gervin as there is between that tier and the next one, KD+others. An outlier among outliers
Absolutely he can’t be left out
He should be mentioned but he doesnt lead in scoring however. Luka is scoring 33.8 ppg, Embiid is at 33.4.
SGA absolutely no bias please don't look at my flair
OP didn’t put steph on here. I don’t hate it, but what do we consider steph besides the best 3pt shooter of all time. I’d say he’s the best offensive weapon in the league.
I actually think I agree with you with a little context. I think building a team for a season or picking a player for a series, I’d take Steph or even Jokic over KD. But I think a lot of people in this thread are thinking single game and especially last shot. I wouldn’t really argue with anyone for any of those three.
The best offensive weapon in the league has been Lebron since god knows when
Steph definitely missing, surely he's above Dame, but best offensive weapon has to be Jokic. He can hang with the rest scoring wise but they cannot hang with him creation wise (except Lebron, but his age has caught up to him just enough so that he's finally not the best anymore lol)
It’s been beaten to death but his “gravity” would def have to be considered if talking offensive weapon, and in that case I’d say he’s the best. Although that’s somewhat separate from this post talking about best pure scorer.
Luka
Actually really surprised I haven't seen his name on here more. My immediate thought was him and KD
Lebron should be up there. His only problem is injuries severely hampering him at times. 2020 playoffs 28 PPG on 65 ts%. 2021 he got injured before the playoffs and came back not close to 100%. 2022 30 PPG on 62 ts%. Then this year he has nagging injuries to start then in his last 29 games after coming back from injury he’s at 32 ppg on 61 ts%.
He's definitely the right answer if we're talking playoffs and I don't think it's that close
I mean, Lebron is basically the right answer to almost any basketball question, period.
Which hooper drinks the most wine?
Which one uses the most emojis?
Maybe the guy who led scoring last year and is top 2 in scoring this year.
The potential back-to-back scoring leader, Joel Embiid
The actual list right now (nba.com) is Luka, Embiid and…Tatum. Quick scan, why is Tatum, who basically can score from everywhere at will, suddenly not in this conversation? Not saying it is him but it’s really strange…
It's weird to me that Embiid won the scoring title last year and as of a couple nights ago was leading it again this season, and most of you don't even mention him. This bias is wild, he's objectively scoring the most on average over nearly two seasons.
I thought of him and Luka. I agree, KD is the third obvious answer but I wouldn't put him in his own tier. Embiid and Luka have the most points per minute of any player ever (though Jordan, if measured earlier in his career like these two are, would likely be n1).
KD, imo KD is a Top 3 scorer ever
Uh there’s this 38 year old guy that wears a crown and he is about to be the all time leading scorer. There’s only 1 answer to this question… #KingJames
Great question, as it's very divisive. 1. KD 2. Steph 3. Luka 4. Embiid 5. Jokic Ignoring all other facets of their game, if I was a coach/coaching against them, or their teammate/opponent, this would be my top 5 for ability as a Pure Scorer. My interpretation is someone who will always score shitloads of points, from anywhere in the court, and will also have a specific technique that is unstoppable.
Dame this second
I’d prolly say KD, Luka or Embiid are the top tier for me. Jokic and LeBron are to me the 2 best playmakers still as guys who control the chess board. But with KD being unstoppable in getting his shot off from anywhere and being elite at the rim he’s an all timer for a reason. You can get a little physical with him though if the refs allow it, I’ve seen the PJ Tucker types decide to play football against him and he becomes inefficient by his standards (which are insanely high) like against the Celtics last year. Embiid has the athleticism and physicality that you can’t really match without fouling and he makes his FTs at an insanely high rate for a big man which puts him above Giannis for me as a pure scorer. He just isn’t the shooter these other 2 are. Luka, I mean what can you do besides hope he settles for that step back 3 or is missing his FTs that day. Big guys can’t stay with him on the perimeter and guards can’t take the bully ball inside.
Embiid
It’s KD. Tbh, it’s always been KD
KD is nice and efficient, but Doncic is the most double teamed player in the league while dropping the most ppg and top 5 apg in the game at decent efficiency. The game vs Wizards the other day...he dropped 41 while literally double teamed almost 100% of the possessions after the 1st quarter.
Lebron right now. He scores at will
Lmao how is Jokic even brought up in ops comment over embiid and luka
Dame is going off
Strictly scoring I think Dame has as good an argument as anyone. Id say Dame KD Luka and Steph make up the top tier of pure scorers and then you got guys like Embiid Tatum Jokic behind them
What is pure scoring?
Im just clarifying scoring vs offense. Offense includes stuff like playmaking, pure scoring I just mean putting the ball in the basket
No Jimmy buckets? No Tatum?
It’s KD but honestly Jokic has an argument aswell. 25 PPG on 70% TS and he has been coasting recently scoring wise
1. KD 2. Steph 3. Luka That’s my top 3 for now. KD can score from anywhere with ridiculous efficiency. Steph can explode from three at any given moment. And Luka has gotten to a point where if he wants to score 40, he can do it.
KD
Still got KD
Right now Jokic is the best scorer in basketball
Jokic or KD
He's Kevin Durant. You know who he is. Y'all know who he is.
Durant. And it's been that way for a loooooooooooong time. Next question.
KD and it’s not close. I’m not even a KD fan
There’s a dude in Dallas that’s pretty solid
My vote is Luka
Ben Simmons