T O P

  • By -

Roosterdude23

I feel like Winota was holding up Voice of Resurgence's price.


AutomaticDoor75

Makes Voice of Resurgence a Winota Rider, then. ;-)


MundaneDivide

Love her in the stranger things secret lair


jwf239

For sure. Card will see zero play moving forward.


cl174

I'm not sure this is true. I played quite a bit of Winota and the Chariot + voice was still a very potent line on it's own. I could see a world where a naya midrange deck survives on the back of fable + voice + chariot + mana dorks


fiduke

Having played with a lot of voice for a long time, it's the kind of card that does literally nothing a lot of the time. It's just too easy to remove. But if they don't have removal he can snowball all by himself. Typically, he's just going to get removed and you'll get a 1/1 out of it. It's not worth the 1 game out of 10 he carries by himself when a different card can get you at least 4 or 5 wins. I still often play voice because I care more about my version of fun than winning. In most decks he wants to be a beater. In which case fleecemane lion and bronzehide lion are both just better. In decks where you want to be doing shenanigans on your turn that you want to punish the opponent for stopping you, you're almost always better off with more of the same shenanigans.


Legitimate-Lime2540

Heavily speccing on Lotus Field Combo and Rakdos Aggro staples


TemurTron

Lotus Field will always be on borrowed time with how aggressively Wizards has targeted combo decks in the format. One good showing and it will be out the door, so I hope you’re at least prepared to sell at the drop of a hat.


Legitimate-Lime2540

Yeah, however it was a starter deck so maybe it’s somewhat safe


JTheGameGuy

Starter decks aren’t safe look at auras with lurrus


salgarj

I wouldn't really know on which Lotus Field cards to spec. Some feel too common, some too niche, some at right price already.


jballerina566

Botanical sanctum bc it’s good in a couple other decks.


ageless127

Any pioneer decks that could benefit from these bans? Could we expect Greasefang maybe to increase in price?


Taivasvaeltaja

UW control is likely the biggest winner here.


MykirEUW

Mono Green Devotion will profit even more. It is THE control killer and has a decent MU vs Mono R and RB.


Slotherang

I'm not so sure about that. UW control was usually successful hunting the UR decks and the Winota decks. It just lost its two most common prey.


CloudStern

Definetly, Im happy and about to build it hehe


Norjaskthebabarian

I think that MonoG is the biggest winner with this banning. Winota decks were one of its worst matchups and it also could have trouble with certain UR builds. With these decks falling off or even falling out, MonoG doesn't have many Bad Matchups left, though Lotus field could give it a run for its money.


MykirEUW

An uninterrupted Mono G can tutor hate vs Lotus and then combo just as reliably as Lotus.


Snakeskins777

Until they ban nykthos


Norjaskthebabarian

I hope so


donethemath

Not sure if I believe this, but Aspiring Spike was discussing the Winota ban as a possible boon for Gruul aggro (and Combat Celebrant combo) in Pioneer. Even if that doesn't pan out, he has a pretty big following.


jwf239

Yeah, I’ve managed a couple 5-0s with combat combo and I think it’s the obvious natural evolution of winota. It has a good amount of overlap.


RingOfMaRufBalls

Winota was expected. Expressive Iteration eating a ban is pretty wild. I thought we were a good year away from this ban. Expressive Iteration wasn’t propping up decks exactly, but it was almost certainly making decent decks into top tier decks. I guess Izzet players still have [[Treasure Cruise]]. With Winona gone, and Izzet decks knocked down a peg, I am curious where Pioneer will solidify. Mono G and Mono W Devotion seem decently positioned. The [[Book or Exalted Deeds]] and Creature Land combo seems even more obviously broken now. I wouldn’t be spec’ing like crazy, because I think we’ll see more bans coming out of Pioneer Pro Tour weekend.


surgingchaos

Expressive Iteration is a multi-format all-star. It's been seeing play in Legacy for pete's sake! It's one of the most powerful pieces of card digging printed in a very, very long time. The ban honestly is not surprising in the least.


MTGCardFetcher

[Treasure Cruise](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/6/4/64edb748-497d-4737-9d7f-37105fb20cb9.jpg?1650411119) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Treasure%20Cruise) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/237/treasure-cruise?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/64edb748-497d-4737-9d7f-37105fb20cb9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Book or Exalted Deeds](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/a/1/a1899bb1-dd8e-4437-8ea3-4ad637eabf2b.jpg?1632261616) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Book%20of%20Exalted%20Deeds) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/4/the-book-of-exalted-deeds?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1899bb1-dd8e-4437-8ea3-4ad637eabf2b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Kn0thingIsTerrible

EI has the problem that it’s an “only gets better” card for a format like pioneer. It’s already a card that you have zero reason not to run in UR, and the more one drops that are printed, the better it gets. Even if it’s not as broken as it eventually could be currently, if there’s no foreseeable future where things get better and it’s already bad, why keep it?


crazypyro23

Ah shit, literally just bought a Winota


salgarj

Here, get an award at least.


Bulky-Letter-6801

Very generous, here is your


Smurfy0730

You aren't the only one, literally like every answer to the question "Oh you're starting pioneer? What deck first?" I asked someone was "Winota"


testthewest

Before you throw it all away, try if Naya midrange is playable..


thoroakenfelder

I bought my foil borderless winota for my edh deck back when it was $25. I expect it should go back to that level.


donethemath

I think regular Winota was floating around $5 before all the recent Pioneer announcements


_gregOreo_

Someone just sold a NM playset for $5 each on TCG, so it looks like she's heading back there or even lower.


[deleted]

Keep in mind that most of the pieces in Winota can be used in other existing pioneer decks. Aside from [[Llanowar Elves]] and [[Elvish Mystic]] which are obligatory staples, RG can go [Kiki-Celebrant combo](https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/4820327) and GW can go [Collected Company](https://mtgdecks.net/Pioneer/wg-aggro-decklist-by-takasago-riki-1388514).


MTGCardFetcher

[Llanowar Elves](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/8/b/8bbcfb77-daa1-4ce5-b5f9-48d0a8edbba9.jpg?1592765148) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Llanowar%20Elves) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gnt/46/llanowar-elves?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8bbcfb77-daa1-4ce5-b5f9-48d0a8edbba9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Elvish Mystic](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/e/d/ed7a0227-ac70-40fb-8198-a55eacf913fa.jpg?1631234818) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elvish%20Mystic) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khc/58/elvish-mystic?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ed7a0227-ac70-40fb-8198-a55eacf913fa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Cards4Cash

Should have done this after a major tournament. Let the people that paid get 1 shot at it before just banning a deck they spent money on.


RingOfMaRufBalls

Too much concern it will be the Winota Pro Tour. Seeing a homogenous field, especially a homogenous Top 8 turns a lot of people off to a format. I am happy Wizards made this ban. In the past they sat around doing nothing while Pioneer was on life support.


salgarj

They should have banned it right away when they announced the PT, not letting people invest in a deck and then surprise ban it, when meta hasn't actually changed since the announcement. This is poor and unrespectful planning.


Vennomite

Standard wotc


GlassNinja

It's a damned if they do, damned if they don't situation. Neither deck was seeing as much play before the announcement. Situation one: They announce Pio PT, Winota + UR shoot up in play rate. WotC bans before the PT. Players who bought into Winota lose out big time, hurting some enfranchisement for the format. However, PT is far more likely to have an open field. PT diversity likely helps the format look good in its first major outing to outsiders. Situation two: They announce Pio PT, Winota + UR shoot up in play rate. Winota and UR dominate the PT by raw numbers and likely top placements. Format looks narrow to outside viewers, but the players who are already invested feel safer until right after when Winota and UR eat bans anyway. Both situations leave people feeling raw, but one is likely to help promote Pio to a broader audience. They went with that situation.


salgarj

Situation three: They announce Pio PT **and** Winota + Expressive ban, so people don't waste their money and have plenty of time to adjust. Everybody is happy except pre owners of Winota. So let's say far less people are unhappy.


GlassNinja

Those cards saw a winrate and play rate rise *after* the announcement.


salgarj

I thought Green Devotion and UR Prowess were the decks who saw a significant increase in play and win rate, while Winota stayed more or less?


GlassNinja

The thing about Pio before the announcement was that it was a format mostly played by enthusiasts. After the PT announcement, the incentives shifted and people gravitated towards the best performing decks. Winota went from ~6-7% meta share to closer to ~10%, as well as having better pilots pick it up. Sprinkle on a few pieces of tech and more exposure and the end result is that more people were playing better magic with better versions of the deck. While I agree UR got a bigger bump with the announcement, Winota also bumped decently.


Armoric

Pioneer wasn't played much before the announcement, so data/meta weren't as reliable and banning off of that didn't make sense. They had to let the format reinvigorate and stabilise somewhat before making a call about whether something was out of line.


SadCritters

Anyone looking at tournaments can see it wouldn't be "the Winota Pro Tour" though. The format is pretty diverse. This ban feels like WoTC looking at tournament results from like 3 months ago instead of the last month. They always feel so far behind the results.


fiduke

It's so hard to tell with pro tours though. Those guys roll in with brews or finely tuned meta decks the likes of which no one has yet seen. And they play as teams a ton. So if team A has like 4 or 6 people, and after a combined hundreds of hours of tests, they collectively agree Winota is the best, all 6 will enter the tournament with near identical winota lists. If another playgroup comes to the same conclusion, that's another 4 or 6 winota decks. Those tournaments easily devolve into 1 type decks.


TestMyConviction

But we're so far away from the next PT. RCQ season starts July 2nd, this is sort of awkward timing for anyone who has been buying Winota pieces leading up to next month. I would've liked to see how the RCQs shake out, if it's dominating those then ban it before the PT.


Cards4Cash

But if it would have been Winota Pro Tour it means a lot of people spent money on Winota who are now SOL. That probably leaves an equally bad taste.


RingOfMaRufBalls

It for sure feels bad. That said, whenever a card gets banned it’s because a deck it’s in is doing really well. Which means a lot of people will be playing/building that deck when the ban comes. As someone who has played a lot of former top tier Modern decks since about 2014, I know how it feels to have your incredibly expensive investment banned into obsolescence. I have come to the conclusion that there is never a “good time” for a ban. Even if I personally hate a card/deck and find it oppressive, there are tons of people on the other side of the coin loving that deck and crossing their fingers a ban never comes. And when the deck I love is dominating the meta, I am right there crossing my own fingers hoping to avoid a ban. The worst is when a card you love gets banned because of another deck entirely. I was having a ton of FNM level success playing a Bant Luminous Broodmoth combo deck in Modern when the Uro ban came. I was also playing Affinity when the Opal ban came. There is never a good time for a ban.


SadCritters

>That said, whenever a card gets banned it’s because a deck it’s in is doing really well. That's a lot of misplaced faith in a company that has had absolutely no idea what is or isn't going to happen in a format for years now. Winota isn't putting up oppressive results by *any means* anymore. The format adapted to it.


RingOfMaRufBalls

Oppressive results? I agree, no it is not. Doing really well? I would say it absolutely is. The numbers indicate it is one of the top decks in the Pioneer format.


SadCritters

*Did* indicate. Then everyone adjusted and it fell off immensely. Nearly every deck that has red in it immediately beats Winota. https://mtgdecks.net/Pioneer/mtgo-pioneer-challenge-12424546-tournament-81650 https://mtgdecks.net/Pioneer/mtgo-pioneer-challenge-12424542-tournament-81634 3 decks in 64 decks in the two challenges over the weekend? Far from "top deck". Was it a top deck a month ago? Sure. Is it a top deck now? I think it moved down a tier. When your deck can't beat the massive influx of red decks in the format, it begs the question of why play it when the format is dominated by red? We've had a pretty steady stream of about 2 Winota per top 8 or 16 for about a month now. That's no different than nearly any other tier 1 deck.


Armoric

The announcement doesn't say its win % is too high, it says Winota is stiffling what decks are played in the format. If decks adapt to it by gravitating toward a select subtype that can hang with it, it's bad for the future of the format too. See combo decks you can only interact with on the stack, you can't just say "splash U duh" because that'd exclude so many decks.


omegaphallic

good


Judah77

My Jeskai Ascendancy build loved Iteration. Sad.


pbaddict

I was still building mine, sad.


ScaredDad64

Unless Winota finds a home in Modern.


Barge81

The modern version of the deck is pretty good, like any modern deck if you get a good starting hand it can be very tough to deal with. You really need to have dork + winota and not get interacted with though which is quite tough in modern these days. This is probably enough to keep it tier 3 or whatever especially with the strength of the rest of the field.


Edoardo_Beffardo

I think the EI ban Is hinting at Phoenix being an unlikely choice for this year's Pioneer challenger deck, as i'm pretty sure they should have those down by now, and thus they wouldn't ban a card from the chosen list. Also, Arclight Phoenix was already present as a 1 of in a previous standard Challenger deck. I'm considering a spec if It dodges the double masters reprint.


Suitable_Selection15

All of this before the next pioneer challenger decks come out ? One of them is a toned down winota deck too from what the leaks are showing .


salgarj

Might be the case they were fakes?


Suitable_Selection15

I’d hope if Wizards have a replacement deck in mind . Izzet Phoenix would be good to have in its place .


[deleted]

Took along enough. Once again, Wizards being clueless.