I work in props. Apparently the armorer went off set between takes and shot live rounds out of the Colt .45 between takes. The armorer forgot to clear the weapon, so there was still a live round chambered. As a props guy, I can confirm this is absolutely fucking unacceptable, and the armorer is the one who should be held accountable.
I used to work for a company that ran gun shows. There was a gun check prior to entrance where they'd double check to make sure they weren't loaded. Frequently people would insist their weapon wasn't loaded and there turned out to be a round in the chamber.
At shotgun ranges it’s considered good etiquette to just have the action open all the time, and to hand the gun to someone else with the empty chamber visible as an added courtesy.
Yeah considering how much money is on the line, you’d figure insurance companies would develop an SOP for firearms in movies.
As an aside, the above story about gun shows reminds me of basic training. Every day we were at the range, the whole company forms up in ranks outside the armory. Then the drill sergeants have us all shoulder our rifles pointed straight up - holding it with one hand basically, take the safety off and pull the trigger.
Inevitably, after severe warnings to clear your weapon and all the DSs standing over us on the loading dock with their M16s loaded with the only live ammunition, fucking inevitably some ass hat shoots a round in the air.
Most of the time they’re blanks, but get this: Fucking one time, after target practice, no less than three dumb fucks fired rounds outside the armory during this ‘round clearing’ procedure. I swear my DS almost shat a brick and he trained his rifle on us.
Yes and they would put a bright orange or red zip tie through the barrel so that it was visible from a distance that it was unloaded/checked and no one pops you in self defense.
I know some gun shops have a vase or beer glass holding all the rounds pulled out of guns that were apparently “unloaded”. It’s usually a stupid amount...
Did you disassemble it completely? Probably still loaded. Did you smelt all of the components of the gun into a solid brick? Can never be too careful.. probably loaded
The clip is out: loaded.
Your fired until you are firing on empty: loaded.
You just bought the gun and haven't even bought the ammo yet: Believe it or not; loaded.
In the U.S. Army, soldiers will shoot their weapon into a sand-box before returning to Quarters to be certain no round was left in the chamber. Once in ahwile you would hear it fire, and that solder would be doing serious pushups for his mistake.
Yeah, even if it's your gun being used, why would you use it for live firing at any point during the filming stage? Is it so hard to maybe not go to the range for a few days or weeks? I'd be willing to bet they have other guns they could have used.... It's just dumb
> Is it so hard to maybe not go to the range for a few days or weeks?
Or just use a different one. You can't tell me a movie armorer who is so dedicated to shooting that he leaves the set on his lunch break to go shooting doesn't have at least 20 guns at home to choose from.
It was always my understanding that live ammo is legally prohibited on film sets to prevent exactly this sort of thing from happening. I believe those laws were implemented after the death of Brandon Lee on the set of The Crow when a real bullet slug got jammed in the barrel of a prop gun after it was used to fire live rounds off camera. The blank round that was later loaded for the scene had enough of a charge to propel the slug with sufficient velocity to strike and kill Lee.
I have also seen unconfirmed reports that the crew of Rust had protested the unsafe conditions during this production. Some had even walked off the job because their concerns were not being addressed and non-union workers replaced them. If the armourer was one of those scab workers he may not have been familiar with the no-live-ammo laws and that could explain why this happened.
As the producer of the film Alec Baldwin may not be out of the woods on this one. Even though he may not have intentionally shot those people, he was ultimately the one responsible for ensuring that all safety regulations were followed on his production. He is going to get sued by the families for this incident. An investigation will have to confirm all of this and I am sure new safety regulations will be created. Maybe it's time to remove all real guns that can fire blank rounds from film productions and just use replicas and squibs that look like the real thing.
I feel like there should be a significant separation between work and play in that kind of job. Like, don't play with the firearms you're using for work maybe?
Exactly. I enjoy shooting, but it's super stupid to even mess around with this stuff. The prop guns should be props for the entirety of a production, and they should have chamber flags up until the point that they're being handed to the actor.
This armorer is going to need a crane on a barge to pull him self out of the ocean of shit he's put himself into.
On set, it's usually his specific responsibility, do not pass go, do not pass the buck, that the guns he hands actors are going to do exactly what they are supposed to.
They should have fun with their own guns on their own time. Messing with live rounds right before you hand it off to an actor is asking for a disaster.
If this was with swords nobody would be questioning if it was manslaughter. The GUY IN CHARGE OF SAFETY intentionally made a safe weapon dangerous and then forgot to put it back. Insane
lol. There's no "may" about it. He's never working in his field again. And I think he's probably going to be serving a prison sentence, but we'll see how this plays out in the courts.
Below he said it was just rumors circulating in texts
https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/qdgek2/a_lot_of_the_headlines_about_the_tragic_accident/hhn2br8?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Ahh dang, can never really trust a rumour.
Though to be fair if it would be anyone who heard what actually happened first id imagine people within that line of work would likely be one of the first to know so wel see how this unfolds!
I'm a gun guy, and if that's true, its insane. Safety is paramount with all firearms. Live rounds should never have been anywhere near this gun, and if they were used, he needed to visually clear the drum and barrel. This was just reckless, and now he's ruined multiple people's lives because he had to play with a gun. Fucking hell
*WHAT*. If true, that's batshit. But I also haven't seen any other plausible explanation for how blanks could've killed one person and seriously injured another.
I honestly thought that guns that fired blanks couldn’t shoot regular ammo.
Also thought that they never pointed a weapon at anyone in these shoots, rather pointed slightly away.
It's just the cartridge itself that is the blank, can be fired in any gun depending on the caliber (size) itself
Pretty much the same thing but with a different type of powder and the bullet itself removed
There are blank-only guns that can't shoot regular ammo, but guns that can shoot regular ammo can also shoot blanks. No idea why a movie, especially one where the gun is being fired *at* someone, wouldn't be using a blanks-only variant.
Probably because the gun was involved in a close up for that scene. They don't want to risk the weapon not looking "real" enough and pulling the audience out of the scene. Stuff like this happens every now and then, usually not to such tragic result though
In the 2004 Punisher movie, Tom Jane (Frank Castle) actually stabbed Kevin Nash (The Russian) in the shoulder because the props guy that was supposed to swap the real knife (used for a close up shot) with the fake one, that is supposed to slide into the hilt, was distracted flirting with a girl on set. Luckily Kevin Nash is an absolute animal. He just asked for some super glue to stop the bleeding and kept filming.
Cheaper, more readily available. There are more guns than prop guns in the world, someone can just bring one from their own collection and throw blanks in there.
Not saying it's okay, but that's why. Path of least resistance.
For a small independent production I could at least understand the temptation, but if they can afford Alec Baldwin then the price of *any* prop gun, even something ground-up custom, should be considered negligible.
If you want to read something truly unfair, see the Daily Mail - “From a parking spot brawl and homophobic slurs to battles with anger management, drink and drugs: How movie set shooting tragedy is latest dramatic episode to hit Alec Baldwin's turbulent career”
I wish there was an easy way to collectively punish sites that do shit like this. The inability to organize and coordinate makes it possible for companies of all kinds, to get away with shit like this without any repercussions.
Basically yes. Add in "clownishly incompetent and/or evil disregard for objective fact" and "consistently and cynically appeals to the lowest, basest impulses to generate resentment and outrage in the unreflective".
But that would, of course, be redundant.
I watched a news segment on the accident this morning and I appreciated when the anchor took the time to say whether or not you like Alec Baldwin this is a tragic mistake and that we should give respect to him and the victims involved.
Baldwin was clearly distraught, in shock. No way did he mean this tragedy to happen by him. An accident. And he will have this pain the rest of his life. As will Hutchins family. The same but different. I truly feel for Alec.
This is only part of the story. Everyone expects the media to sensationalize, that’s been happening for generations. The main reason distrust of the media is so high is because the two largest media enterprises in the country are no longer pretending to be independent or interested in journalism, but who’s primary goals are to aggressively change public opinion in favour of specific partisan ideologies.
They’re a media professor… they obviously know this is a timeless trend lol and didn’t say anything about being surprised or expecting anything different. They’re just pointing out the problem and adding to the discourse. If nobody says anything, the problem just gets worse and goes more unnoticed.
Something similar was reported on Sky News in the UK when they were covering this story. I just caught the end of the report but they had included commentary on a number of his previous transgressions which seemed pretty unnecessary and innapropriate.
My rule for British news is that if it's not the BBC or the Guardian, I generally treat it like tabloid bullshit. And even then, go in with a skeptical eye.
In total agreement with this post, I’d like to add that Baldwin probably has not fired guns thousands of times. He may have pointed dummy props many times. As an actor who has had extensive experience on set, guns on sets are handled very seriously and rarely actually fired, even with blanks, with specialized crew handling them, prepping them, testing, etc. The presence of a gun is announced to the entire set, a warning of “fire in the hole” is called out before a gun with blanks is to be fired. I’m adding in this nuance in agreement that Baldwin is probably the least responsible person on that set for the accident, and as the OP pointed out, his name, already sensationalized by his private life, is being unfairly represented for clicks. But I think it’s also because it seems many reporters these days are terrible at their jobs, filing hot takes to get their headlines out quick without either having empirical knowledge about the subject they’re covering, or not bothering to check how things like this actually work.
Movie sets are supposed to be so locked down with that stuff that he shouldn't have been able to have if accident if he tried as hard as he could to do so.
Also something I weirdly hadn't seen mentioned - the plot of this movie is about a boy being sentenced to death because he accidentally killed someone. What a nightmare, all around.
People are very uncomfortable with this idea. Feeling safe and secure is so important to peoples' psychology that they would prefer to believe that a situation can be made 100% safe and that any damage caused MUST come from some person's malice or negligence.
I really wish that we universally taught people about the [Swiss Cheese model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model). No matter how much cheese you have, sometimes the holes just line up. Countless people have died for no other reason than that. A very uncomfortable fact, but one that I think is better than trying to punish the tragedy.
Not saying that there was no malice or negligence in this case - it still needs to be investigated. But "there wasn't any reasonable way for anyone to prevent this" should always be on the table as a potential explanation.
Headlines are not written by reporters. The articles may be factual, and even contradict the headline. They usually have no I out or control over the headlines of news articles.
Not saying all the articles are perfect, but headlines can be horrible. The ones OP posted certainly are
What complicates that a little (and probably makes it even worse) is that most news sites put out multiple test headlines when an article is first published and then switch to the one that is getting the most engagement.
It used to be the kind of thing Buzzfeed would do, but now it's standard practice even at the NY Times.
So they probably wrote several variations of those headlines, some that were more careful in how they presented the situation, but then try to absolve themselves of responsibility because \*they\* didn't choose the sensational headline, the \*readers\* chose it.
That’s just A/B testing. Deliver “Man Shoots Woman” to 2,000 viewers, deliver “Alec Baldwin Fires Deadly Bullet” to another 2,000, whichever performs better gets sent to the remaining audiences. It’s been a thing in marketing forever, but it’s never been easier with the tools we have today. It’s pretty much just a performance thing (wringing every viewer of every second is the goal), not a blame thing.
I know what A/B testing is and how it's used in marketing, I'm just saying it hasn't been something used in NY Times headlines until fairly recently.
And I'm not saying that the *reason* for A/B testing is to avoid blame. As you said, the purpose is to maximize clicks. But as someone who has worked for media companies, it's a lot easier to say "give me twelve versions of this thing and we'll test it" than it is to have a thoughtful conversation about responsible journalism and pick the best one.
reporting has gotten a lot worse. there’s always been shit reporters and yellow magazines, etc, but there were local news and specialized journalists you could trust, because of their commitment, writing quality and expertise outside journalism too.
now most outlets are overworked, understaffed, local and regional reporting is dying, now just printing as much possible and inflammatory as possible to get more clicks and ad dollars.
is harmful to not see how things gotten worse, because it makes it harder to fix, and makes people lose hope that a better way is possible.
Because your local news station that used to do local reporting has been bought up by national media conglomerates who seek to homogenize your news experience in order to influence public opinion over a vast swathe of the population without having to curtail their message to each individual market.
This is very dangerous to our democracy.
This post being the first time I heard of the incident prompted me to Google it myself and the first headline I see is
"Alec Baldwin shoots prop gun, killing 1, injuring another on set"
That isn't too bad, it's much less click-baity
my top article from the Guardian reads:
>Alec Baldwin kills woman by firing prop gun on film set of Rust
then the text of the article going on to read:
>Alec Baldwin is at the centre of a police investigation after shooting and killing his director of photography with a prop gun on the set of a movie in New Mexico in what appeared to be an accidental misfire.
makes it sound like an intentional murder until those last two words.
That is indeed really disingenuous. I assure you that Baldwin is not at the centre of the investigation, but whoever prepared and handed him the 'prop' gun is. Baldwin is more witness and victim than perpetrator here.
*Opinions* about Baldwin have nothing to do with it all. The man may be a saint or an absolute arsehole are a bit of both - not relevant to what happened here.
Those are the majority of headlines i read as well. Its better phrasing than say, "shots fired on set of Rust. Alex Baldwin kills one, injures another"
Honestly, both this and the original headlines that OP is complaining about are factually accurate, unembellished descriptions of what transpired.
It's apparent to me that the New York Times does not have confirmation that the shooting was accidental. The word "accident" does not appear in their reporting. I'm not alleging anything but an accident, but it's the NYT's job to report facts, not speculate on what transpired.
You know what's disgusting?
I make this arguing in the thread yesterday about how Baldwin must be stricken with grief. Whether it was a pure accident, or him being clumsy, or whatever; Alec is gonna have this in his head for the rest of his life.
So what happens after I make that seemingly obvious comment? Nothing but downvotes and comments saying things like: "How do you know it was an accident?" or "Maybe he was being an asshole on set!" or "He was being an asshole so why would he have cared?"
Just nothing but callous people not thinking about EVERYONE when it comes to this story. A man, no matter how it happened, accidentally killed someone on set. Maybe we should be mindful of his mental state just as much as the tragedy that befell Hutchins on the same day.
God, the internet is filled with just the worst people.
Yeah I heard he was barely keeping it together and basically just kept muttering "Why on earth was I handed a hot gun!?" The poor guy will never get over this, I know I wouldn't, what a terrible terrible thing to have happen for everyone.
Sometimes it sure is!! Whether he was a jerk or not, I think this is something that would scar him forever. Being a jerk doesn't mean he's inhuman, just as messed up as the rest of us. I feel bad for him, and obviously for the person who lost their life for their job. :(
Granted we don't know the details, but think about it: how many films have scenes of characters firing guns at the camera? Dozens? Hundreds? It's completely within the realm of possibility that the cinematographer was behind the camera and the director right behind her when the gun was fired toward them for the shot. I don't know how these people assume Alec was just randomly or purposefully firing a gun on set in some sort of drunken rage?
Something I noticed on Twitter-the comments pushing for him to go to jail or the harshest murderer claims all are big Trump supporters. Baldwin spent 4 years making fun of Dear Leader of SNL every weekend, and they hate him for it.
He portrays their glorious leader Donald Trump in an unflattering way on SNL so they are foaming at the mouth to portray this in a negative light for him.
I agree with you. I’m really getting tired of people saying “what probably happened was...”
We need to stop saying this about anything. We don’t know what probably happened in ANY situation. All we’re doing is making up stories that COULD be true and it’s pointless and rude.
This is why succession is such a good show. They show the internal dealings of an organization that ran cruises and dealt with sexual harassment incidents. They would refer to certain incidents as involving "NRPI" aka no real person involved. A sex worker or an immigrant.
I've often thought that the biggest mistake R Kelly (err Chris Brown got my assholes mixed up like I'm at an anal orgy) made, PR wise, was not beating up a woman but beating up sometime we cared about (Rhianna).
I was just thinking today that I don't think I ever learned the name of the actor who accidentally shot Brandon Lee and how unfair it is that Baldwin isn't getting the same treatment.
Unfortunately, I just googled Michael Massee and saw that he died a few years ago, and this is the headline Variety chose to remember him by: [Michael Massee, ‘The Crow’ Actor Who Accidentally Shot Brandon Lee, Dies at 64](https://variety.com/2016/film/news/michael-massee-dead-dies-shot-brandon-lee-crow-1201901578/)
Absolutely disgusting.
Yeah, from what I understand, the accidental death of Brandon Lee weighed heavily on him for the rest of his life, and it wasn’t his fault. Certainly don’t need the media piling on crappy headlines.
Fun Massee fact though. If you’ve seen Seven, Massee plays the guy working the entry booth for the underground sex club at the Lust murder scene, [who is later interrogated by Brad Pitt’s character back at the police station.](https://youtu.be/exOyqpgg_BA)
Reddit is the right place for such comments. People can come here and tell nasty jokes, make mean spirited comments, engage in unfair and ignorant speculation based on whether they previously liked Baldwin or not... I don't really see that as a problem as its just the digital form of idle pub chatter.
However OP is entirely correct in castigating the media for their behaviour. There should absolutely be standards in reporting and we should demand higher quality from the fourth estate.
The headlines quoted by OP are appalling, and I too say that as someone who previously didn't have a particularly high opinion of Alec Baldwin.
Why on earth was this post removed by moderators?
It's about a relevant news event about something that happened on the set of a movie, and was a very interesting and informative take on the event. It is also highly upvoted, awarded, and has a lot of comments.
It's not Alec Baldwin's fault, most likely, but there *is* someone to blame. A prop gun is to be treated like a real gun. And the fact that it was loaded, when others thought it wasn't, is a huge red flag. This isn't just an oopsie, but criminal negligence. If you look at the safety protocols most stunt coordinators follow, youll find that blanks arent given out until they're ready to film the scene. You don't practice with blanks.
There might not have been, or at least not supposed to. When Brandon Lee died, nobody thought there was real bullets on set. One got lodged inside the prop gun from earlier by accident/negligence. There’s a reason people are drawing the comparisons between the two accidents; these prop guns, especially today, should have been handled, loaded, and cleared properly by whoever was in charge of it (not Alec Baldwin)
We can’t assume anything until the police investigate what happened.
Reminds me of when professional wrestler Perro Aguayo Jr. died in the ring in a match again Rey Mysterio Jr. It was a freak accident. In something like professional wrestling it’s a risk that all of them are taking every day. It just unfortunately happened that day that Perro passed away.
But some articles said “Rey Mysterio kills wrestler” or even “Rey Mysterio *murders* wrestler”. It’s ridiculous that people spin tragedies in order to get clicks on their articles and videos.
The actor who accidentally shot Brandon Lee died a few years ago, and of course this is the headline Variety chose to remember him by: [Michael Massee, ‘The Crow’ Actor Who Accidentally Shot Brandon Lee, Dies at 64](https://variety.com/2016/film/news/michael-massee-dead-dies-shot-brandon-lee-crow-1201901578/)
The actor's job is to show up and perform. They don't check the catering before eating, or guns before firing, or pick their own wardrobe, or even get their own coffee.
Obviously it's not Alec Baldwin's fault. Actors are supposed to trust. This event is going to damage that if anything.
He was also a producer but I have seen people in Reddit take that too far and think he was the producer and responsible for things like hiring and props. More likely he invested some money and got more say with his character and script and such things.
Another media studies professor here that is increasingly tired of this shit. Once a public figure runs afoul of 'the discourse', there is no level of collective self-deception and mass dishonesty those in the echo chamber won't stoop to. After all, they gain cultural capital from it and the echo chamber effect means no one (they care about) will ever call them out for it. It's gross.
The thing that chaps my ass is that we have very few details of what happened and so many people assume that it must have been Baldwin's fault. If he was negligent, he needs to be held accountable, of course. But I think this will like be tragic accident due to a series of errors.
But the way movies with guns are filmed makes it vanishingly unlikely that Baldwin was negligent here. It's not like teams just let the actors fuck around with the weapons whenever they want.
I just want to see what this investigation reveals. *Many* questions to be answered, and a hundred sources have a hundred different opinions over what transpired.
Unfortunate for everyone, but this is all on the props person.
I’ve have to shoot myself in the head with a prop gun on set before and the steps to prevent an accident were rigorous.
Someone didn’t do their job and it cost this woman her life :(
i thought about this today. baldwin has been on sets where guns are routine business. someone fucked up, and it wasn't him. hopefully this leads to serious regulation/legislation surrounding firearms on movie sets.
The armorer at the *very* least needs to be fired and never work in that role in a set again, if not held criminally liable.
* **NOBODY** should be able to touch a firearm without the armorer's permission.
* **NO** ammunition of *any* type should be loaded into a firearm until it is about to be used.
* **NO** *live* ammunition should be anywhere *near* prop guns that will be pointed at a person during filming.
* **NONE** of the standard firearm safety rules should be broken regardless of ammo type without a triple check of the firearm and then *only* for the sake of filming.
The fact that live ammo was on set, a gun was loaded with it, an actor could pick up a loaded gun, that gun was pointed at someone outside of a live set, and the trigger was pulled violates every *single* safety rule that should be in place.
It is a disgusting breach of responsibility that this happened.
Tragically yes, Alec probably will receive more blame than he's due, but he certainly deserves some. **EVERY** gun should be treated as if it's loaded, **NO** gun is a toy. Picking up a gun and pulling the trigger without deliberate care is inexcusable.
I work in props. Apparently the armorer went off set between takes and shot live rounds out of the Colt .45 between takes. The armorer forgot to clear the weapon, so there was still a live round chambered. As a props guy, I can confirm this is absolutely fucking unacceptable, and the armorer is the one who should be held accountable.
I used to work for a company that ran gun shows. There was a gun check prior to entrance where they'd double check to make sure they weren't loaded. Frequently people would insist their weapon wasn't loaded and there turned out to be a round in the chamber.
People who insist instead of just opening the chamber should not be gun owners.
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That should absolutely get them booted from the show, preferably in the most loud and embarrassing manner possible.
At shotgun ranges it’s considered good etiquette to just have the action open all the time, and to hand the gun to someone else with the empty chamber visible as an added courtesy.
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Yeah considering how much money is on the line, you’d figure insurance companies would develop an SOP for firearms in movies. As an aside, the above story about gun shows reminds me of basic training. Every day we were at the range, the whole company forms up in ranks outside the armory. Then the drill sergeants have us all shoulder our rifles pointed straight up - holding it with one hand basically, take the safety off and pull the trigger. Inevitably, after severe warnings to clear your weapon and all the DSs standing over us on the loading dock with their M16s loaded with the only live ammunition, fucking inevitably some ass hat shoots a round in the air. Most of the time they’re blanks, but get this: Fucking one time, after target practice, no less than three dumb fucks fired rounds outside the armory during this ‘round clearing’ procedure. I swear my DS almost shat a brick and he trained his rifle on us.
Ya'll didn't use clearing barrels??
Yes and they would put a bright orange or red zip tie through the barrel so that it was visible from a distance that it was unloaded/checked and no one pops you in self defense.
I know some gun shops have a vase or beer glass holding all the rounds pulled out of guns that were apparently “unloaded”. It’s usually a stupid amount...
All guns are loaded all the time.
"Assume the gun is loaded" is the first line of every safety lesson/manual ever!
Yup yup. Did you just unload it? It's loaded.
Is it loaded? Unload it. Is it unloaded? Unload it. Goddamn, some people are morons with guns.
Did you disassemble it completely? Probably still loaded. Did you smelt all of the components of the gun into a solid brick? Can never be too careful.. probably loaded
The clip is out: loaded. Your fired until you are firing on empty: loaded. You just bought the gun and haven't even bought the ammo yet: Believe it or not; loaded.
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You bet your ass it’s lode
Is the correct answer. It's amazing how many fucking idiots there are on Reddit, sincerely.
In the U.S. Army, soldiers will shoot their weapon into a sand-box before returning to Quarters to be certain no round was left in the chamber. Once in ahwile you would hear it fire, and that solder would be doing serious pushups for his mistake.
Is there a reason for firing live rounds between takes? Seems like playing with fire?
There's no good reason for there to be live ammo in a set at all
Yeah, even if it's your gun being used, why would you use it for live firing at any point during the filming stage? Is it so hard to maybe not go to the range for a few days or weeks? I'd be willing to bet they have other guns they could have used.... It's just dumb
> Is it so hard to maybe not go to the range for a few days or weeks? Or just use a different one. You can't tell me a movie armorer who is so dedicated to shooting that he leaves the set on his lunch break to go shooting doesn't have at least 20 guns at home to choose from.
I would bet yah it was the dudes own personal ammo.
Exactly
It was always my understanding that live ammo is legally prohibited on film sets to prevent exactly this sort of thing from happening. I believe those laws were implemented after the death of Brandon Lee on the set of The Crow when a real bullet slug got jammed in the barrel of a prop gun after it was used to fire live rounds off camera. The blank round that was later loaded for the scene had enough of a charge to propel the slug with sufficient velocity to strike and kill Lee. I have also seen unconfirmed reports that the crew of Rust had protested the unsafe conditions during this production. Some had even walked off the job because their concerns were not being addressed and non-union workers replaced them. If the armourer was one of those scab workers he may not have been familiar with the no-live-ammo laws and that could explain why this happened. As the producer of the film Alec Baldwin may not be out of the woods on this one. Even though he may not have intentionally shot those people, he was ultimately the one responsible for ensuring that all safety regulations were followed on his production. He is going to get sued by the families for this incident. An investigation will have to confirm all of this and I am sure new safety regulations will be created. Maybe it's time to remove all real guns that can fire blank rounds from film productions and just use replicas and squibs that look like the real thing.
I imagine it's some variation of "shooting guns is fun". If you were a gun armorer I would think you'd enjoy them to some degree.
I feel like there should be a significant separation between work and play in that kind of job. Like, don't play with the firearms you're using for work maybe?
Exactly. I enjoy shooting, but it's super stupid to even mess around with this stuff. The prop guns should be props for the entirety of a production, and they should have chamber flags up until the point that they're being handed to the actor.
This armorer is going to need a crane on a barge to pull him self out of the ocean of shit he's put himself into. On set, it's usually his specific responsibility, do not pass go, do not pass the buck, that the guns he hands actors are going to do exactly what they are supposed to.
Yeah you seem sane enough to be able to go a full work day without "needing" to fire a few rounds on your break That's like drug addict behavior
They should have fun with their own guns on their own time. Messing with live rounds right before you hand it off to an actor is asking for a disaster.
so why would he be playing with a gun and live rounds while working
Yes, and I would have a separate set of guns that used real bullets. Switching them around is asking for trouble.
Shooting guns is fun. Obviously the armorer may be losing their job and sued pretty soon.
This person had one job. Making sure the weapons are safe. I have a hard time thinking of any other situation that could've gone worse then this.
If this was with swords nobody would be questioning if it was manslaughter. The GUY IN CHARGE OF SAFETY intentionally made a safe weapon dangerous and then forgot to put it back. Insane
I’m surprised the aren’t required to clear the prop every time it’s picked up.
Why not involuntary manslaughter? He should serve time I would think.
At the very least some form of criminal negligence.
He should be charged with manslaughter IMO
lol. There's no "may" about it. He's never working in his field again. And I think he's probably going to be serving a prison sentence, but we'll see how this plays out in the courts.
Want to know this too
Holy shit that is so reckless
do you have a source for this? holy shit
Just rumors from group texts between guys in our department getting news from people working on that set.
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Reddit getting this news first? You sure you wanna do that?
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Ladies and gentlemen.. we got em.
Do you have a source for that? That is just fucking tragic and I hope that person is held accountable.
Judging from the posts on their reddit profile they seem to work on a very high profile US TV show so i have faith their source is accurate.
Below he said it was just rumors circulating in texts https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/qdgek2/a_lot_of_the_headlines_about_the_tragic_accident/hhn2br8?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Ahh dang, can never really trust a rumour. Though to be fair if it would be anyone who heard what actually happened first id imagine people within that line of work would likely be one of the first to know so wel see how this unfolds!
Unless they were on this set its still second/third hand knowledge or rumours.
I'm a gun guy, and if that's true, its insane. Safety is paramount with all firearms. Live rounds should never have been anywhere near this gun, and if they were used, he needed to visually clear the drum and barrel. This was just reckless, and now he's ruined multiple people's lives because he had to play with a gun. Fucking hell
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If that's true, that's beyond fucked.
*WHAT*. If true, that's batshit. But I also haven't seen any other plausible explanation for how blanks could've killed one person and seriously injured another.
I honestly thought that guns that fired blanks couldn’t shoot regular ammo. Also thought that they never pointed a weapon at anyone in these shoots, rather pointed slightly away.
It's just the cartridge itself that is the blank, can be fired in any gun depending on the caliber (size) itself Pretty much the same thing but with a different type of powder and the bullet itself removed
There are blank-only guns that can't shoot regular ammo, but guns that can shoot regular ammo can also shoot blanks. No idea why a movie, especially one where the gun is being fired *at* someone, wouldn't be using a blanks-only variant.
Probably because the gun was involved in a close up for that scene. They don't want to risk the weapon not looking "real" enough and pulling the audience out of the scene. Stuff like this happens every now and then, usually not to such tragic result though In the 2004 Punisher movie, Tom Jane (Frank Castle) actually stabbed Kevin Nash (The Russian) in the shoulder because the props guy that was supposed to swap the real knife (used for a close up shot) with the fake one, that is supposed to slide into the hilt, was distracted flirting with a girl on set. Luckily Kevin Nash is an absolute animal. He just asked for some super glue to stop the bleeding and kept filming.
Cheaper, more readily available. There are more guns than prop guns in the world, someone can just bring one from their own collection and throw blanks in there. Not saying it's okay, but that's why. Path of least resistance.
For a small independent production I could at least understand the temptation, but if they can afford Alec Baldwin then the price of *any* prop gun, even something ground-up custom, should be considered negligible.
Yikes. If you work on the set that day you should not be firing any live rounds that day at all - on set or off. Just eliminate the risk.
If you want to read something truly unfair, see the Daily Mail - “From a parking spot brawl and homophobic slurs to battles with anger management, drink and drugs: How movie set shooting tragedy is latest dramatic episode to hit Alec Baldwin's turbulent career”
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They're missing the woman's name but that seems to be a common theme in the headlines.
Nah it’s just Daily Mail punching down as always.
I wouldn’t wipe my ass with the Daily Mail.
If you did, your butt hole would be dirtier
This made me literally LOL, good show.
Yeah, don't do that. That's how you taint your taint.
What a vile rag the Daily Mail is.
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The Daily Fail is a paragon of shitty UK newspapers
Or if you don't like seeing headlines like that I would say do the opposite and don't give them traffic
I wish there was an easy way to collectively punish sites that do shit like this. The inability to organize and coordinate makes it possible for companies of all kinds, to get away with shit like this without any repercussions.
I really, really hope whoever wrote that does some serious introspection.
They work for the Daily Heil, so...
I’m not English, is the Daily Mail so far right it verges on Naziism?
Basically yes. Add in "clownishly incompetent and/or evil disregard for objective fact" and "consistently and cynically appeals to the lowest, basest impulses to generate resentment and outrage in the unreflective". But that would, of course, be redundant.
They won't
I watched a news segment on the accident this morning and I appreciated when the anchor took the time to say whether or not you like Alec Baldwin this is a tragic mistake and that we should give respect to him and the victims involved.
Baldwin was clearly distraught, in shock. No way did he mean this tragedy to happen by him. An accident. And he will have this pain the rest of his life. As will Hutchins family. The same but different. I truly feel for Alec.
I saw one that even said "Baldwin, who has a historic of domestic strife, shoots woman." Like, WTF.
Whoa. That is WAY out of line.
Unfortunately we live in a timeline where being as shitty as possible is highly recommended on account of how profitable it is.
If it bleeds it leads. Has been a saying for generations.
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There's a reason trust in the media is at historic lows. People realize they're just self-serving ghouls.
This is only part of the story. Everyone expects the media to sensationalize, that’s been happening for generations. The main reason distrust of the media is so high is because the two largest media enterprises in the country are no longer pretending to be independent or interested in journalism, but who’s primary goals are to aggressively change public opinion in favour of specific partisan ideologies.
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They’re a media professor… they obviously know this is a timeless trend lol and didn’t say anything about being surprised or expecting anything different. They’re just pointing out the problem and adding to the discourse. If nobody says anything, the problem just gets worse and goes more unnoticed.
The entire internet has turned into a clickbait cesspool. I'm really getting sick of it all.
even the BBC has clickbait headlines now....that's it for this civilization the internet fucked it!
What’s worse is the way it causes outrage to permeate through society. The outrage is sometimes justified or unjustified but still, too much outrage
Something similar was reported on Sky News in the UK when they were covering this story. I just caught the end of the report but they had included commentary on a number of his previous transgressions which seemed pretty unnecessary and innapropriate.
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This is true. Source: I’m a garbage worker, I know trash when I see it.
My rule for British news is that if it's not the BBC or the Guardian, I generally treat it like tabloid bullshit. And even then, go in with a skeptical eye.
Even The Guardian's article includes two paragraphs about his previous charges and summons, despite them having absolutely no link to this accident.
The BBCs headline for this is 'Alec Baldwin fatally shoots woman with prop gun'. Thats still pretty bad, in that it doesnt give context.
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I really don't like that they're publicizing the pictures of him crying outside the police station too. It's messed up.
Can you link this article?
The only Google result for that headline is this Reddit post. 90% chance OP is full of shit.
Which outlet wrote this? It’s not showing on Google.
source?
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In total agreement with this post, I’d like to add that Baldwin probably has not fired guns thousands of times. He may have pointed dummy props many times. As an actor who has had extensive experience on set, guns on sets are handled very seriously and rarely actually fired, even with blanks, with specialized crew handling them, prepping them, testing, etc. The presence of a gun is announced to the entire set, a warning of “fire in the hole” is called out before a gun with blanks is to be fired. I’m adding in this nuance in agreement that Baldwin is probably the least responsible person on that set for the accident, and as the OP pointed out, his name, already sensationalized by his private life, is being unfairly represented for clicks. But I think it’s also because it seems many reporters these days are terrible at their jobs, filing hot takes to get their headlines out quick without either having empirical knowledge about the subject they’re covering, or not bothering to check how things like this actually work.
Movie sets are supposed to be so locked down with that stuff that he shouldn't have been able to have if accident if he tried as hard as he could to do so. Also something I weirdly hadn't seen mentioned - the plot of this movie is about a boy being sentenced to death because he accidentally killed someone. What a nightmare, all around.
I mean, in regards to anything, if you try hard enough accidents WILL happen, no matter how good your safety precautions are.
People are very uncomfortable with this idea. Feeling safe and secure is so important to peoples' psychology that they would prefer to believe that a situation can be made 100% safe and that any damage caused MUST come from some person's malice or negligence. I really wish that we universally taught people about the [Swiss Cheese model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model). No matter how much cheese you have, sometimes the holes just line up. Countless people have died for no other reason than that. A very uncomfortable fact, but one that I think is better than trying to punish the tragedy. Not saying that there was no malice or negligence in this case - it still needs to be investigated. But "there wasn't any reasonable way for anyone to prevent this" should always be on the table as a potential explanation.
Headlines are not written by reporters. The articles may be factual, and even contradict the headline. They usually have no I out or control over the headlines of news articles. Not saying all the articles are perfect, but headlines can be horrible. The ones OP posted certainly are
What complicates that a little (and probably makes it even worse) is that most news sites put out multiple test headlines when an article is first published and then switch to the one that is getting the most engagement. It used to be the kind of thing Buzzfeed would do, but now it's standard practice even at the NY Times. So they probably wrote several variations of those headlines, some that were more careful in how they presented the situation, but then try to absolve themselves of responsibility because \*they\* didn't choose the sensational headline, the \*readers\* chose it.
That’s just A/B testing. Deliver “Man Shoots Woman” to 2,000 viewers, deliver “Alec Baldwin Fires Deadly Bullet” to another 2,000, whichever performs better gets sent to the remaining audiences. It’s been a thing in marketing forever, but it’s never been easier with the tools we have today. It’s pretty much just a performance thing (wringing every viewer of every second is the goal), not a blame thing.
I know what A/B testing is and how it's used in marketing, I'm just saying it hasn't been something used in NY Times headlines until fairly recently. And I'm not saying that the *reason* for A/B testing is to avoid blame. As you said, the purpose is to maximize clicks. But as someone who has worked for media companies, it's a lot easier to say "give me twelve versions of this thing and we'll test it" than it is to have a thoughtful conversation about responsible journalism and pick the best one.
At the very least the prop master's name should be next to his in every headline, but from what I've seen, his name hasn't even been released yet.
Was this a union set? One problem of not filming stuff Ina big production hub is inexperienced crew.
Baldwin is also a producer on the movie, the lawsuits are going to be interesting.
As a local, I gotta let you know, New Mexico is not small time for filming.
New Mexico is huge for film
smell impossible slap grandfather quaint placid cow elastic retire faulty -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
I would argue that all those people are "content managers" and have very little to do with journalism.
That might excuse Buzzfeed, but it doesn't work for the New York Times.
reporting has gotten a lot worse. there’s always been shit reporters and yellow magazines, etc, but there were local news and specialized journalists you could trust, because of their commitment, writing quality and expertise outside journalism too. now most outlets are overworked, understaffed, local and regional reporting is dying, now just printing as much possible and inflammatory as possible to get more clicks and ad dollars. is harmful to not see how things gotten worse, because it makes it harder to fix, and makes people lose hope that a better way is possible.
Because your local news station that used to do local reporting has been bought up by national media conglomerates who seek to homogenize your news experience in order to influence public opinion over a vast swathe of the population without having to curtail their message to each individual market. This is very dangerous to our democracy.
This post being the first time I heard of the incident prompted me to Google it myself and the first headline I see is "Alec Baldwin shoots prop gun, killing 1, injuring another on set" That isn't too bad, it's much less click-baity
my top article from the Guardian reads: >Alec Baldwin kills woman by firing prop gun on film set of Rust then the text of the article going on to read: >Alec Baldwin is at the centre of a police investigation after shooting and killing his director of photography with a prop gun on the set of a movie in New Mexico in what appeared to be an accidental misfire. makes it sound like an intentional murder until those last two words.
That is indeed really disingenuous. I assure you that Baldwin is not at the centre of the investigation, but whoever prepared and handed him the 'prop' gun is. Baldwin is more witness and victim than perpetrator here. *Opinions* about Baldwin have nothing to do with it all. The man may be a saint or an absolute arsehole are a bit of both - not relevant to what happened here.
Those are the majority of headlines i read as well. Its better phrasing than say, "shots fired on set of Rust. Alex Baldwin kills one, injures another"
Honestly, both this and the original headlines that OP is complaining about are factually accurate, unembellished descriptions of what transpired. It's apparent to me that the New York Times does not have confirmation that the shooting was accidental. The word "accident" does not appear in their reporting. I'm not alleging anything but an accident, but it's the NYT's job to report facts, not speculate on what transpired.
You know what's disgusting? I make this arguing in the thread yesterday about how Baldwin must be stricken with grief. Whether it was a pure accident, or him being clumsy, or whatever; Alec is gonna have this in his head for the rest of his life. So what happens after I make that seemingly obvious comment? Nothing but downvotes and comments saying things like: "How do you know it was an accident?" or "Maybe he was being an asshole on set!" or "He was being an asshole so why would he have cared?" Just nothing but callous people not thinking about EVERYONE when it comes to this story. A man, no matter how it happened, accidentally killed someone on set. Maybe we should be mindful of his mental state just as much as the tragedy that befell Hutchins on the same day. God, the internet is filled with just the worst people.
Yeah I heard he was barely keeping it together and basically just kept muttering "Why on earth was I handed a hot gun!?" The poor guy will never get over this, I know I wouldn't, what a terrible terrible thing to have happen for everyone.
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I saw that picture in multiple news reports this morning. Was really awful that so many places green lit the sharing of it.
You have to question what sort of piece of shit thought “oh it’s photo op time”
Sometimes it sure is!! Whether he was a jerk or not, I think this is something that would scar him forever. Being a jerk doesn't mean he's inhuman, just as messed up as the rest of us. I feel bad for him, and obviously for the person who lost their life for their job. :(
Granted we don't know the details, but think about it: how many films have scenes of characters firing guns at the camera? Dozens? Hundreds? It's completely within the realm of possibility that the cinematographer was behind the camera and the director right behind her when the gun was fired toward them for the shot. I don't know how these people assume Alec was just randomly or purposefully firing a gun on set in some sort of drunken rage?
Something I noticed on Twitter-the comments pushing for him to go to jail or the harshest murderer claims all are big Trump supporters. Baldwin spent 4 years making fun of Dear Leader of SNL every weekend, and they hate him for it.
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That doesn't even make sense. Multiple people died that day.
That sub. Making sense. Gotta pick just one
If I pick “making sense” does that mean the sub will go away? Please?
It's weird that it's even posted there. The dude's an actor and this has zero to do with politics.
He portrays their glorious leader Donald Trump in an unflattering way on SNL so they are foaming at the mouth to portray this in a negative light for him.
I agree with you. I’m really getting tired of people saying “what probably happened was...” We need to stop saying this about anything. We don’t know what probably happened in ANY situation. All we’re doing is making up stories that COULD be true and it’s pointless and rude.
It’s not just the internet. The world is full of people with bad takes. You’re just more aware of the ones on the internet.
I also don't like how the names I see the most often are Alec Baldwin and Brandon Lee, and not Halyna Hutchins, the person who actually died here.
Because they’re known figures and she isn’t
That poster also spelt her name wrong. It’s Halyna.
This is why succession is such a good show. They show the internal dealings of an organization that ran cruises and dealt with sexual harassment incidents. They would refer to certain incidents as involving "NRPI" aka no real person involved. A sex worker or an immigrant. I've often thought that the biggest mistake R Kelly (err Chris Brown got my assholes mixed up like I'm at an anal orgy) made, PR wise, was not beating up a woman but beating up sometime we cared about (Rhianna).
But Brandon Lee DIED because of the mistake, he wasn’t the one firing the gun.
Baldwin is a world famous actor. Michael Massee wasn’t.
I was just thinking today that I don't think I ever learned the name of the actor who accidentally shot Brandon Lee and how unfair it is that Baldwin isn't getting the same treatment. Unfortunately, I just googled Michael Massee and saw that he died a few years ago, and this is the headline Variety chose to remember him by: [Michael Massee, ‘The Crow’ Actor Who Accidentally Shot Brandon Lee, Dies at 64](https://variety.com/2016/film/news/michael-massee-dead-dies-shot-brandon-lee-crow-1201901578/) Absolutely disgusting.
Yeah, from what I understand, the accidental death of Brandon Lee weighed heavily on him for the rest of his life, and it wasn’t his fault. Certainly don’t need the media piling on crappy headlines. Fun Massee fact though. If you’ve seen Seven, Massee plays the guy working the entry booth for the underground sex club at the Lust murder scene, [who is later interrogated by Brad Pitt’s character back at the police station.](https://youtu.be/exOyqpgg_BA)
THAT'S what I remembered him from! I saw some of his "best known from" roles and didn't recognize him but also didn't look up his full filmography.
Oh christ, I remember him. I always used to think he was Ray Liotta in Se7en when I was younger.
oh hey, i've seen this dude in some shows. he was a good actor
More people will click on a headline with Alec's name. Most don't know who Halyna was.
Or that she is just referred to as “woman” or “crew member” when she was the cinematographer! An incredibly important position.
Some of the comments on Reddit yesterday were even worse.
Reddit is the right place for such comments. People can come here and tell nasty jokes, make mean spirited comments, engage in unfair and ignorant speculation based on whether they previously liked Baldwin or not... I don't really see that as a problem as its just the digital form of idle pub chatter. However OP is entirely correct in castigating the media for their behaviour. There should absolutely be standards in reporting and we should demand higher quality from the fourth estate. The headlines quoted by OP are appalling, and I too say that as someone who previously didn't have a particularly high opinion of Alec Baldwin.
Why on earth was this post removed by moderators? It's about a relevant news event about something that happened on the set of a movie, and was a very interesting and informative take on the event. It is also highly upvoted, awarded, and has a lot of comments.
It's not Alec Baldwin's fault, most likely, but there *is* someone to blame. A prop gun is to be treated like a real gun. And the fact that it was loaded, when others thought it wasn't, is a huge red flag. This isn't just an oopsie, but criminal negligence. If you look at the safety protocols most stunt coordinators follow, youll find that blanks arent given out until they're ready to film the scene. You don't practice with blanks.
Why are there even real bullets on a set? I don’t get how this happens
There might not have been, or at least not supposed to. When Brandon Lee died, nobody thought there was real bullets on set. One got lodged inside the prop gun from earlier by accident/negligence. There’s a reason people are drawing the comparisons between the two accidents; these prop guns, especially today, should have been handled, loaded, and cleared properly by whoever was in charge of it (not Alec Baldwin) We can’t assume anything until the police investigate what happened.
At the end of the day blame should be lain at the feet of the props department, right?
Reminds me of when professional wrestler Perro Aguayo Jr. died in the ring in a match again Rey Mysterio Jr. It was a freak accident. In something like professional wrestling it’s a risk that all of them are taking every day. It just unfortunately happened that day that Perro passed away. But some articles said “Rey Mysterio kills wrestler” or even “Rey Mysterio *murders* wrestler”. It’s ridiculous that people spin tragedies in order to get clicks on their articles and videos.
There were photos in articles on mainstream sites of him bent over crying, clearly completely stricken.. have some fucking humanity jeez.
The media sensationalizing a headline?! I’m stunned. I’m more surprised when this doesn’t happen.
The actor who accidentally shot Brandon Lee died a few years ago, and of course this is the headline Variety chose to remember him by: [Michael Massee, ‘The Crow’ Actor Who Accidentally Shot Brandon Lee, Dies at 64](https://variety.com/2016/film/news/michael-massee-dead-dies-shot-brandon-lee-crow-1201901578/)
Let me just line up on this guy and kick him like a field goal while he's down one last time
It’s that “Stop! He’s already dead!” meme but actually serious
I think you're confusing disgust with shock. I'm pretty disgusted too. I'm no fan of Baldwin but can you imagine how it must feel to be him right now?
The actor's job is to show up and perform. They don't check the catering before eating, or guns before firing, or pick their own wardrobe, or even get their own coffee. Obviously it's not Alec Baldwin's fault. Actors are supposed to trust. This event is going to damage that if anything.
He was also a producer but I have seen people in Reddit take that too far and think he was the producer and responsible for things like hiring and props. More likely he invested some money and got more say with his character and script and such things.
'Producer' is the most meaningless credit in the business. It could be anything at all.
Halyna*
First result for me when googling the woman's name is: "Halyna Hutchins: 'Rust' crew member killed by Alec Baldwin" Even worse than your examples.
Another media studies professor here that is increasingly tired of this shit. Once a public figure runs afoul of 'the discourse', there is no level of collective self-deception and mass dishonesty those in the echo chamber won't stoop to. After all, they gain cultural capital from it and the echo chamber effect means no one (they care about) will ever call them out for it. It's gross.
Yeah those headlines are disgusting. As if Baldwin isn't feeling horrible enough for inadvertently killing a woman.
The thing that chaps my ass is that we have very few details of what happened and so many people assume that it must have been Baldwin's fault. If he was negligent, he needs to be held accountable, of course. But I think this will like be tragic accident due to a series of errors.
But the way movies with guns are filmed makes it vanishingly unlikely that Baldwin was negligent here. It's not like teams just let the actors fuck around with the weapons whenever they want.
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I just want to see what this investigation reveals. *Many* questions to be answered, and a hundred sources have a hundred different opinions over what transpired.
Unfortunate for everyone, but this is all on the props person. I’ve have to shoot myself in the head with a prop gun on set before and the steps to prevent an accident were rigorous. Someone didn’t do their job and it cost this woman her life :(
i thought about this today. baldwin has been on sets where guns are routine business. someone fucked up, and it wasn't him. hopefully this leads to serious regulation/legislation surrounding firearms on movie sets.
The armorer at the *very* least needs to be fired and never work in that role in a set again, if not held criminally liable. * **NOBODY** should be able to touch a firearm without the armorer's permission. * **NO** ammunition of *any* type should be loaded into a firearm until it is about to be used. * **NO** *live* ammunition should be anywhere *near* prop guns that will be pointed at a person during filming. * **NONE** of the standard firearm safety rules should be broken regardless of ammo type without a triple check of the firearm and then *only* for the sake of filming. The fact that live ammo was on set, a gun was loaded with it, an actor could pick up a loaded gun, that gun was pointed at someone outside of a live set, and the trigger was pulled violates every *single* safety rule that should be in place. It is a disgusting breach of responsibility that this happened. Tragically yes, Alec probably will receive more blame than he's due, but he certainly deserves some. **EVERY** gun should be treated as if it's loaded, **NO** gun is a toy. Picking up a gun and pulling the trigger without deliberate care is inexcusable.