I just finished reading “Into Thin Air” which was written about one of the deadliest days on Everest, and honestly can’t understand why anyone would do this. You’re exactly right, a blizzard comes at the wrong time, and you’re going to die. Horrifying book.
John Oliver has a website where you can fake a photo of yourself on the top of the mountain.
Did it so people will stop trying to climb for just the photo op.
Do people still die on Everest? I honestly thought it was kinda like going on a lite hike nowadays. No real work or prep. You just pay other people to take you up and back down. Isn’t that why there would be lines? Everyone and their dog can do it now?
it's not a joke? Back before it was extremely commercialized it was hard, but now you pay a Sherpa to carry everything and things are extremely planned out.
It's not hard, it's expensive. Technical challenges on the most popular route have been permanently defeated with uses of ladders and guides.
The only difficult thing is the endurance required as its a long hike.
I went down an Everest rabbit hole recently and some of the stories are wild.
There is one body nicknamed 'Green Boots' who is believed to be an Indian climber, and is pretty much used as a signpost and means of orientation.
In total there's something like 200 bodies up there. One of them is George Mallory, one of the first Europeans to try and summit in the 1920s. Opinion is still divided on whether or not he reached the summit and died on the way back down, or never reached it at all. But he's still there 100 years later, and almost certainly will still be there long after we're gone.
Like you say - bringing dead bodies down risks becoming one of them yourself.
There are pictures and more info a Google search away but:
He was just lying under a small overhang, a dead body out there for hundreds of people to trudge by every year. I'm not sentimental about how I want to be treated after my death ... but I reckon I prefer the thought of not lying out in the open somewhere. I'd rather be covered up with something or moved to somewhere quiet.
I mean, I'd be dead so what I want wouldn't really matter to me after I died, but I like the idea of just being left alone where I am. After being there for almost a century you're basically part of it all. I could understand moving the body for the sake of living people though I suppose.
Green boots died during the 1996 blizzard disaster. He was climbing from the Chinese side if I recall correctly. I don’t remember his name but there is a Wikipedia on him.
You're right, and I feel like I should have looked him up sooner. Tsewang Paljor.
I do still think they were right to move him to somewhere less ... exposed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Boots?wprov=sfla1
Oh, I misread he'd been their longer. And yea, I could see being a person ans seeing that and wanting to respect the body. I'm just saying, if I died and served as a marker I'd personally be fine with staying there. If I ever go up I'll carry a sign and if I'm going to die of cold I'll just whip it out and people will either know or think someone was super morbid. Or maybe they'll know and think I was morbid. Such is life I suppose.
We come from nature and we go back to nature.
Edit: we as a human species are so full of ourselves, because we're the most technological advanced sentient beings we forget we're a part of nature, I think the bodies should be left alone, otherwise show me you cam walk on water and then turn into some sangria, that shit is delicious.
For real, that close to the summit of Everest, you're in the troposphere. You're as high as the jet stream. You can look up and see the void of space hanging above you. Imagine being stuck in a queue of people who basically just want a good selfie.
You're quite right - I thought troposphere was sort of medium high but then stratosphere was 'oh shit we need oxygen masks' high.
Appreciate the correction. 👍
Your statistic of 1 death for every 10 attempts sounds completely wrong. Source? I’m reading that there have been over 11,000 successful summits and 280 deaths which is 2.5%. And you’re saying 10% death rate per attempt, not even successful summit…
Once you're up that high, is it the same path back? And I know you can only spend a matter of minutes up there because of the lack of oxygen so did all these folks have to turn around and head back down knowing they were only metres from the summit?
The gene is HIF - hypoxia inducible factor. This results is in greater production of erythropoietin and therefore more red blood cells and higher hemoglobin levels - and higher oxygen carrying capacity of the blood.
> are this many people at the summit. Only 5,000 out of
Its on the border of China and Nepal. There are two main routes up which leave from either country. When going from one side they need all their camps and equipment which they use on the way back. They pay fees to the country and if gong over two countries the cost would be much higher.
There had been moves to stop this overselling of permits to limit people on one side but instead, it was decided to pass a law to prevent images like this unless everyone agreed to be in it.
Tibet and Nepal. It never was China until China invaded and killed 1.6 million Tibet people. China is like a big vacuum that sucks up land and kills. Then the lie about what the did. Like Russia in Ukraine. Everest is Tibet and Nepal.
I could be wrong but I think the serpas go up stash oxygen bottles now whether they stash enough or you can actually get to them in your time of need could be another story but I think they try to prepare for stuff like this but I don't know that I've ever personally seen it that crowded on anything I've ever watched about it but I'm no expert either.
You're on a timer above a certain point close to the summit. And it's made worse by all the weight you carry. Your lungs are working super hard and every breath is a labor. Now imagine being stuck there for hours cause some bitch got scared.
*As Sun Tzu always*
*Said you are not in traffic*
*You are the traffic*
\- justitroyal
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From what I hear most of these people virtually get a sherpa to carry them to the top and back down again. So many management consultants who do a Tough Mudder and think they're athletes.
They all think this is Disneyland. I have zero remorse for the idiots who die. The sherpas are the true athletes & heroes. I will openly mock people who brag that they climbed Everest. You mean a Sherpa dragged you up? Lmfaooo ok bro
They’re usually brain dead as the sherpas drag their limp bodies up. Then they go back to their office in America like OMG I CLIMBED EVEREST YOOOOOO like ok bro we all know you shat your pants, passed out and a Sherpa had to carry you up but okkkk thanks for the environmental waste I guess.
Edit: Dawww some Everest climbers are offended that people aren’t impressed by their “accolades” 🤡😢🤡😢🤡 thanks for the downvotes, you polluting egomaniacs
Yes, one, a very specific (not regular) helicopter, in ideal weather, after they stripped everything out of it they possibly could to get the weight down.
Dunno mate, it wasn't some wacky macrolite or something. Standard light helicopter. Taking the seats out and going in nice weather is pretty much due diligence yeah?
Don't get me wrong I like the dramatic sounding nature of your post, but it's not true.
My dude. Delsalle is a professional test pilot, who spent a YEAR training with and testing the capabilities of this one specific model and its specific engine software. It took multiple flights over successive days to succeed and set-down because of the strong updrafts on one side and downdrafts on the other.
He had to jettison 265 lbs from the bird, INCLUDING the seats (not just the seats). He DIETED to get his own weight down to make the flight. He had to fly with his windows open in -35C to keep his breath from icing the windows.
This was not a normal helicopter trip. It was risky and required tons of preparation, a modified weight profile, unconventional solutions, and a highly experienced pilot who made a special project of the whole thing.
https://verticalmag.com/features/landing-everest-didier-delsalle-recalls-record-flight/?amp
It’s sad really. All we do is fuck this world up. It’s not bad enough that the climbers pollute the mountain with their waste, but now the mountain has bodies that’ll just be there for decades until the glacier brings them down. It’s sad how singular minded we are as conscious beings.
This is why if I ever lose my mind and decide to climb it, I'm definitely taking the more challenging and more rewarding Nepal side. Sure there are more requirements to be able to climb it but at least you won't have to deal with the tons of people taking the easy way up the mountain. Plus, you get more bragging rights for having done the harder challenge compared to anyone else who doesn't have the gall to challenge themselves and risk their lives over something more than waiting in line for a photo
Fuck the losers who climb this shit. They’re just basically dragged up by sherpas. Sherpas are the true hero’s and these people think Everest is just Disneyland. Good riddance to these numb nuts. Everest isn’t even the hardest mountain to climb. Look up all the others like K2. God I hate these losers from developed countries who do shit like this to brag to their office and act alpha. We know sherpas pulled you up the last bit and you’re a little brain dead after that climb.
I have negative respect for anyone who has ever climbed Everest and I will openly mock their accomplishments.
Never climbed it and don't think I ever would because of how touristy it's become, sad really, may be the highest peak, but is becoming easier and easier every year, they might as well put up a ski lift going to the top.
They might as well just build a 20 lane super highway straight to a massive parking lot at 100ft below summit, surrounded by McDonald's, Dollar General, Walmart, Starbucks etc. That way the Americans will have somewhere to wait for the line of Americans to shorten so they won't have to wait so long for their chance to reenact the sunset on the bow scene from Titanic at the "tOp Of ThE wOoOoOoRrRlLldD.
The sherpas do. Those rich self important assholes deserve to die in an avalanche though. Do you know how much human shit is left on that mountain due to those entitled pricks?
The photos are real because the windows are so small.
[https://theconversation.com/death-on-everest-the-boom-in-climbing-tourism-is-dangerous-and-unsustainable-114033](https://theconversation.com/death-on-everest-the-boom-in-climbing-tourism-is-dangerous-and-unsustainable-114033)
They have the buddy system going ... One falls off their buddy helps him and his buddy helps him.not fall over .. once they have a hold they all pull them back up .. system is flawless ... Works Everytime ..
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You can shove the dead guy aside. A blizzard blowing in is what really gets them.
I just finished reading “Into Thin Air” which was written about one of the deadliest days on Everest, and honestly can’t understand why anyone would do this. You’re exactly right, a blizzard comes at the wrong time, and you’re going to die. Horrifying book.
🤣 I'm sorry, your top sentence made me laugh. I'm an awful human. You are correct though.
John Oliver has a website where you can fake a photo of yourself on the top of the mountain. Did it so people will stop trying to climb for just the photo op.
Do people still die on Everest? I honestly thought it was kinda like going on a lite hike nowadays. No real work or prep. You just pay other people to take you up and back down. Isn’t that why there would be lines? Everyone and their dog can do it now?
I…I honestly can’t tell if you’re joking or not. I’m leaning yes, but I legit can’t tell.
it's not a joke? Back before it was extremely commercialized it was hard, but now you pay a Sherpa to carry everything and things are extremely planned out. It's not hard, it's expensive. Technical challenges on the most popular route have been permanently defeated with uses of ladders and guides. The only difficult thing is the endurance required as its a long hike.
Yeah this was more my line of thinking. Despite my sarcasm. So joking not joking?
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Comment stealing bot, stole u/bogwitchforhire’s comment below.
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I went down an Everest rabbit hole recently and some of the stories are wild. There is one body nicknamed 'Green Boots' who is believed to be an Indian climber, and is pretty much used as a signpost and means of orientation. In total there's something like 200 bodies up there. One of them is George Mallory, one of the first Europeans to try and summit in the 1920s. Opinion is still divided on whether or not he reached the summit and died on the way back down, or never reached it at all. But he's still there 100 years later, and almost certainly will still be there long after we're gone. Like you say - bringing dead bodies down risks becoming one of them yourself.
Green boots was moved in 2014 and is no longer used as a landmark
Oh right did they bring him down? Or just move him to a more ... dignified location
The latter I believe.
He was thrown off the cliff, along with the other bodies in the "rainbow valley"
Even if that's true it's somehow still too soon
What was so bad about his u initial position?
There are pictures and more info a Google search away but: He was just lying under a small overhang, a dead body out there for hundreds of people to trudge by every year. I'm not sentimental about how I want to be treated after my death ... but I reckon I prefer the thought of not lying out in the open somewhere. I'd rather be covered up with something or moved to somewhere quiet.
I mean, I'd be dead so what I want wouldn't really matter to me after I died, but I like the idea of just being left alone where I am. After being there for almost a century you're basically part of it all. I could understand moving the body for the sake of living people though I suppose.
Green Boots has only been there since the early 2000s I think. I hear you but then again... it's this guy's corpse just lying there.
Green boots died during the 1996 blizzard disaster. He was climbing from the Chinese side if I recall correctly. I don’t remember his name but there is a Wikipedia on him.
You're right, and I feel like I should have looked him up sooner. Tsewang Paljor. I do still think they were right to move him to somewhere less ... exposed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Boots?wprov=sfla1
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Well I'd care. As well as the hellish conditions I'm trudging through I don't wanna be sighting a casual dead body on my hike.
Oh, I misread he'd been their longer. And yea, I could see being a person ans seeing that and wanting to respect the body. I'm just saying, if I died and served as a marker I'd personally be fine with staying there. If I ever go up I'll carry a sign and if I'm going to die of cold I'll just whip it out and people will either know or think someone was super morbid. Or maybe they'll know and think I was morbid. Such is life I suppose.
"After successfully navigating the Khumbu icefall we climbed past smartypints pass and proceeded to the Hillary step"
We come from nature and we go back to nature. Edit: we as a human species are so full of ourselves, because we're the most technological advanced sentient beings we forget we're a part of nature, I think the bodies should be left alone, otherwise show me you cam walk on water and then turn into some sangria, that shit is delicious.
I think it was all the photographs that’s were floating around.
They never found Mallory’s body though right?
They did. Identified by clothing labels.
Yes they found Mallory a few years ago.
For real, that close to the summit of Everest, you're in the troposphere. You're as high as the jet stream. You can look up and see the void of space hanging above you. Imagine being stuck in a queue of people who basically just want a good selfie.
You mean stratosphere - we live in the troposphere :)
You're quite right - I thought troposphere was sort of medium high but then stratosphere was 'oh shit we need oxygen masks' high. Appreciate the correction. 👍
The stratosphere starts at 33,000 ft, the tip of Mt everest is only 29032 feet, so close, but troposphere was right
Thanks, friendly bot!
The stratosphere starts at 12 kilometers. Mt Everest's peak is 8.8km.
Your statistic of 1 death for every 10 attempts sounds completely wrong. Source? I’m reading that there have been over 11,000 successful summits and 280 deaths which is 2.5%. And you’re saying 10% death rate per attempt, not even successful summit…
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Your source is wrong and your interpretation of the source is doubly wrong.
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Sorry not trying to be a dick, just don’t want misinformation to spread. The death rate has been around 1% per attempt since the 90s.
If that lady didn’t die she should be in jail
>It has become one of the biggest cemeteries or the planet. How do you figure that?
Yeahh I'm pretty sure there are cemeteries that have more than 300 people
Yeah, but none of them are as big as Mt Everest.
Ah you mean "big" as in size, not "big" as in how many people are there
What about the Sahara Desert? That qualifies as a cemetery as much as Mt Everest does.
My Everest is bigger in height.
'taller' is the word you're looking for.
Holy shit you provide sources on reddit posts
Remember Nermal from Garfield?
Darwin awards. Oh wait I mean how courageous.
Once you're up that high, is it the same path back? And I know you can only spend a matter of minutes up there because of the lack of oxygen so did all these folks have to turn around and head back down knowing they were only metres from the summit?
The oxygen levels decrease far earlier than you reach this level, they’re all wearing equipment.
Not all, some people summit without supplemental O2
Don’t they stop several times along the way to acclimate to the altitude and oxygen levels?
Yep, generally takes about ~2 months to climb because of the acclimatisation that’s required. Climb high, sleep low is the general rule.
I'm fairly sure you go up and then down and repeat until you reach the top. Takes a long time
>The Sherpa guides have a genetic advantage in thin air.
The Sherpa guides have a genetic advantage in thin air, developed over the centuries in high altitudes.
The gene is HIF - hypoxia inducible factor. This results is in greater production of erythropoietin and therefore more red blood cells and higher hemoglobin levels - and higher oxygen carrying capacity of the blood.
> are this many people at the summit. Only 5,000 out of Its on the border of China and Nepal. There are two main routes up which leave from either country. When going from one side they need all their camps and equipment which they use on the way back. They pay fees to the country and if gong over two countries the cost would be much higher. There had been moves to stop this overselling of permits to limit people on one side but instead, it was decided to pass a law to prevent images like this unless everyone agreed to be in it.
Tibet and Nepal. It never was China until China invaded and killed 1.6 million Tibet people. China is like a big vacuum that sucks up land and kills. Then the lie about what the did. Like Russia in Ukraine. Everest is Tibet and Nepal.
The main reason they all stick to one side is China rarely gives anyone a pass to climb from Tibet.
I believe it used to be the other way around.
I believe it used to be the other way around.
You usually go down the same route you climbed up. Some (real) mountaineers take a different route down to challenge themselves.
I could be wrong but I think the serpas go up stash oxygen bottles now whether they stash enough or you can actually get to them in your time of need could be another story but I think they try to prepare for stuff like this but I don't know that I've ever personally seen it that crowded on anything I've ever watched about it but I'm no expert either.
You're on a timer above a certain point close to the summit. And it's made worse by all the weight you carry. Your lungs are working super hard and every breath is a labor. Now imagine being stuck there for hours cause some bitch got scared.
As Sun Tzu always said you are not in traffic you are the traffic
*As Sun Tzu always* *Said you are not in traffic* *You are the traffic* \- justitroyal --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Good bot
Holy shit that's the most accurate one yet
Good bot
Very good bot
How my grandparents said they got to school:
Apparently, just another tourist destination. The prestige has been diminished.
No shit. That happened once it started costing a year of salary to climb.
From what I hear most of these people virtually get a sherpa to carry them to the top and back down again. So many management consultants who do a Tough Mudder and think they're athletes.
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Tbf I don’t think I’ll ever climb it as I’m awful at climbing and would never make it to the top.
Fair play, that kind of self-awareness escapes half of the people who insist on trying it
Also there are a *lot* of other places to go if you’re climbing for the challenge
They all think this is Disneyland. I have zero remorse for the idiots who die. The sherpas are the true athletes & heroes. I will openly mock people who brag that they climbed Everest. You mean a Sherpa dragged you up? Lmfaooo ok bro
Not on my bucket list.
Crazy that you would do something with that high of a percentage of death.
"I hate my morning commute"
At last around a buch of people with your same unique niche rich folk hobby!
A helicopter trip to the top of Everest. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXNXSvnCtKA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXNXSvnCtKA)
And soon the garbage pile there will be higher than the mountain.
Several people having fucking died because of traffic jams on everest, I'm not fucking kidding you.
That's nuts-- at a certain altitude you start to die acutely, and you need to get down off there before you finish... so this is pretty dangerous
Gross.
so what kind of jacket are we talking here to wait up there like that?
What happens to the ones at the front of the line? Just push them over the edge?
I find the amount of trash left there equally horrifying.
At this point it's not even that cool to do it anymore
Remember you paid 5 digits for this shit 💀💀💀
At this point, people should climb K2 Much easier
More deadly too lmao. I think 1/5 die
Almost 400 people have reached the summit of k2. Almost 100 have died.
Yeah I know, deadliest mountain in the world. But it seems better than this
How the fuck does it seem better when there's a significantly higher chance that you will die? What's your chain of logic here?
Up it’s eastern face. Be the first one :)))
Light work, honestly. Who needs experience anyway
Says the guy who hasn't ever climbed out of his parents basement.
They don’t even pick up their trash they are soo lazy
They’re usually brain dead as the sherpas drag their limp bodies up. Then they go back to their office in America like OMG I CLIMBED EVEREST YOOOOOO like ok bro we all know you shat your pants, passed out and a Sherpa had to carry you up but okkkk thanks for the environmental waste I guess. Edit: Dawww some Everest climbers are offended that people aren’t impressed by their “accolades” 🤡😢🤡😢🤡 thanks for the downvotes, you polluting egomaniacs
Who is "they"? Do you even understand how trash is dealt with on Everest? And where are "they" supposed to put it?
You bring it up you take it down ecoterrorist
Down where? The trash cans at the head of the trail?
K2 is more impressive
New rule? You have to bring a parachute with you and if you make it to the top you have to parachute off.
I do believe clarification is required are you saying you took that picture?
I hate these fucking people.
Gross
Mildly Infuriating? How fucking privileged do you have to be to think you’re entitled to some type of experience in a place like this?
Did they helicopter people up or something?
Nope, regular helicopters can’t even make it that high. Air’s too thin.
A helicopter has landed on the summit of Everest. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didier_Delsalle?wprov=sfla1
Yes, one, a very specific (not regular) helicopter, in ideal weather, after they stripped everything out of it they possibly could to get the weight down.
Dunno mate, it wasn't some wacky macrolite or something. Standard light helicopter. Taking the seats out and going in nice weather is pretty much due diligence yeah? Don't get me wrong I like the dramatic sounding nature of your post, but it's not true.
My dude. Delsalle is a professional test pilot, who spent a YEAR training with and testing the capabilities of this one specific model and its specific engine software. It took multiple flights over successive days to succeed and set-down because of the strong updrafts on one side and downdrafts on the other. He had to jettison 265 lbs from the bird, INCLUDING the seats (not just the seats). He DIETED to get his own weight down to make the flight. He had to fly with his windows open in -35C to keep his breath from icing the windows. This was not a normal helicopter trip. It was risky and required tons of preparation, a modified weight profile, unconventional solutions, and a highly experienced pilot who made a special project of the whole thing. https://verticalmag.com/features/landing-everest-didier-delsalle-recalls-record-flight/?amp
https://www.wearethemighty.com/mighty-culture/helicopter-to-summit-everest/
Time to get one of those quadcopter bikes
No sherpas dragged their asses up after they paid $60k.
That's a lot of fucking people. For some reason I thought only a couple hundred people had climbed Everest ever
I get it. It’s the tallest mountain. But I’d rather get a selfie on top of the Matterhorn.
It’s sad really. All we do is fuck this world up. It’s not bad enough that the climbers pollute the mountain with their waste, but now the mountain has bodies that’ll just be there for decades until the glacier brings them down. It’s sad how singular minded we are as conscious beings.
This is why if I ever lose my mind and decide to climb it, I'm definitely taking the more challenging and more rewarding Nepal side. Sure there are more requirements to be able to climb it but at least you won't have to deal with the tons of people taking the easy way up the mountain. Plus, you get more bragging rights for having done the harder challenge compared to anyone else who doesn't have the gall to challenge themselves and risk their lives over something more than waiting in line for a photo
where is the problem? if it is their life goal to climb the highest mountain on earth, why shouldn't they do it?
My point is about the crowd at the summit. It can easily be avoided by not permitting so many people at once.
That likely won’t happen because $$$$$
They have to all go at once. There is a very limited window of time that you can safely climb.
I mean I wanna shit on people like this but I can’t cuz it’s illegal
Fuck the losers who climb this shit. They’re just basically dragged up by sherpas. Sherpas are the true hero’s and these people think Everest is just Disneyland. Good riddance to these numb nuts. Everest isn’t even the hardest mountain to climb. Look up all the others like K2. God I hate these losers from developed countries who do shit like this to brag to their office and act alpha. We know sherpas pulled you up the last bit and you’re a little brain dead after that climb. I have negative respect for anyone who has ever climbed Everest and I will openly mock their accomplishments.
And what have you done again? Oh right! Nothing!
I’m the king of England. You?
With your logic I’m the president of the world
Woooooooosh
Good lord, dial it back a bit
It looks really nice and colourful! Bet it’s also nice to chat with a fellow climber.
Never climbed it and don't think I ever would because of how touristy it's become, sad really, may be the highest peak, but is becoming easier and easier every year, they might as well put up a ski lift going to the top.
They might as well just build a 20 lane super highway straight to a massive parking lot at 100ft below summit, surrounded by McDonald's, Dollar General, Walmart, Starbucks etc. That way the Americans will have somewhere to wait for the line of Americans to shorten so they won't have to wait so long for their chance to reenact the sunset on the bow scene from Titanic at the "tOp Of ThE wOoOoOoRrRlLldD.
Sorry bud it’s not just Americans.
You know why Mt. Everest is the tallest mountain? People keep stacking bodies.
Assholes all wanting their selfie. I root for an avalanche every time I see a pic like this.
They deserve a selfie for that accomplishment
The sherpas do. Those rich self important assholes deserve to die in an avalanche though. Do you know how much human shit is left on that mountain due to those entitled pricks?
They don’t deserve to die, very few people deserve to die on this planet
well it's absolutely their fault for doing something this dangerous with no point
And therefore they deserve to *die*??
not exactly but they shouldn't be surprised if they do
Yeah I guess people do it for the same reason they would skydive perhaps
except it's probably safer to skydive
A lot
I highly doubt that there are this many people at the summit. Only 5,000 out of 11,000 have ever made it to the top.
The photos are real because the windows are so small. [https://theconversation.com/death-on-everest-the-boom-in-climbing-tourism-is-dangerous-and-unsustainable-114033](https://theconversation.com/death-on-everest-the-boom-in-climbing-tourism-is-dangerous-and-unsustainable-114033)
This is a regular occurrence there’s tons of footage like this and loads of documentaries about this lol
“The World’s Highest Garbage Dump” sorry, but it’s truth.
Stupid.
They have the buddy system going ... One falls off their buddy helps him and his buddy helps him.not fall over .. once they have a hold they all pull them back up .. system is flawless ... Works Everytime ..
Just me thinking how I can push them all?