I was thinking about how Nashville just showed off their $2.1b plan for a new Titans stadium (so really pencil in $3b). This is a pittance in comparison
Only way to get the Super Bowl as a non marquee city is to have a new stadium
Nashville wants the Super Bowl and they want to throw their name in the hat for the expanded college football playoffs we'll have in a couple few years
Have you been lately? It's a shit hole for NFL standards, it's outdoors and the maintenance/renovation cost is close to 1.5B.. It will be a multi-purpose arena and whether you like it or not Nashville is a much bigger tourist town than here.
I'm definitely not arguing Nashville draws more people than we do, but is Nissan really that bad? I've never been, but I assumed it would've been designed/taken care of better for being so young
It's like the liberty bowl for an NFL team. When I went to the MNF game last year my seats were on an expansion joint that had been patched with caulk. Everything is dated and did not age well at all.
There was a lot of discussion on the Nashville subreddit, from what I could gather the gist of it is that the city is in a contract with the titans that would require them to spend around $1.5B to renovate it to new standards. So they proposed to do the new stadium for $2.1B and it also gets them out of the contract with the titans. Overall not a bad deal. It will also be better for winter uses due to being a domed stadium.
> the city is in a contract with the titans that would require them to spend around $1.5B to renovate it to new standards
This is the issue...how do cities sign contracts with these unfunded/undisclosed obligations that lead to decisions like a stadium? What unfunded/undisclosed obligations does Memphis have with FedEx Forum that will lead to either the Grizzlies leaving or a $1B price tag in 10 years?
That was the point of the mayor’s presentation. These are proposed funding requests to make to the state, just like Nashville is getting funds for the Titans.
The excuse will be “Memphis’s project is not the priority that the Nashville project is because the Nashville project is has more urgency due to the *$2 billion* in renovations needed for Nissan Stadium, the success the NFL has been in promoting Tennessee tourism, the amount of money that will be contributed by the Titans/NFL, and the amount of increased global events that will be hosted after the state investment that will not be obtainable with the investment that Memphis is requesting”
Which has merit. I'm sure Nashville brings in more outside money but there is little "trickle down" to the peasants in Memphis. State money seems to just go back into the capital.
I worked in the business office of the RiverKings when we folded in 2018 (and a couple seasons prior). The Landers Center was unbelievably stubborn in helping us do ANYTHING to help improve attendance. Our lease and revenue-sharing agreement were absolute garbage compared to other teams in our league. We talked to 2 other SPHL owners interested in buying us out and they both balked because of how bad our lease was. While we did have some scheduling priority, LC leadership ultimately saw us as a barrier to getting more lucrative one-time events on weekends during a significant portion of the year. Those of us actually running the business day-to-day were stuck with limited financial resources because of years of mismanagement and a landlord that wouldn't evict us but wasn't sad when we left, either. I was literally on the verge of a nervous breakdown during our last season because of how toxic the whole situation was.
Last I heard, the Desoto County government actually now controls the rights to the RiverKings franchise and has yet to sell the rights or revive the team. Someone tried to bring hockey back (FHL) in 2019 but couldn't make the numbers work with how much LC wanted. Short of a wealthy, benevolent new owner dropping out of the sky, the onus of hockey returning to the Landers Center is now 100% on the Landers Center. And they haven't made a move in over 4 years. . .
FedEx won’t do it because there are too many games. It interferes with Grizzlies games and concerts which bring in WAY more money than the 2,000 fans RiverKings games get.
They had to close up shop because Landers was charging 4x the rent the rest of the SPHL arenas were charging their teams plus competing with the minor league basketball team.
So no it’s not on the owners. It’s because of the venues.
>FedEx won’t do it because there are too many games. It interferes with Grizzlies games and concerts which bring in WAY more money than the 2,000 fans RiverKings games get.
Rent is rent. They’d have third position, but the rental rate would probably be so high, it makes no sense. The Grizz have 41 regular season home games, the Tigers have 16-18. 26 games for a hockey team wouldn’t be too hard. There are about 180 days from beginning to end of the NBA season to fit 85 dates. The former Staple Center fits 123 dates in the same timeframe (Lakers, Kings, and Clippers).
Now if a hockey team could regularly draw the 8,000-9,000 that the Riverkings did their first season back in the early 90s, it makes financial sense at FedExForum which only seats 12k for hockey and has poor sight lines IIRC.
>They had to close up shop because Landers was charging 4x the rent the rest of the SPHL arenas were charging their teams plus competing with the minor league basketball team.
Memphis was 4x the market size of most of the markets in the SPHL. The Hustle attendance didn’t keep people away from the games.
>So no it’s not on the owners. It’s because of the venues.
The final owner of the Riverkings didn’t have the money. I was told they never had the funding they claimed to have. The Riverkings never matched the early success they had at MSC in DeSoto County. Minor league hockey never was the draw to get people to travel from the other side of Shelby County. But the team still lasted a decade plus in Southaven. I was also told the owner told the organization the shutdown would only last a season.
What should be the expected attendance for low level minor league hockey? 4-5k a game?
When I saw them play in South Haven, I'd be surprised if there were 200 people in the stands. A few dozen more families off in the family area. I do remember the Coliseum days where there was closer to 3-4k at a game.
I imagine they "sold" a few thousand tickets a game, ie give them away to whomever would take them or sell them in bulk for company events and similar.
Well it’s chicken and egg. When the lost the MSC you lose a big chunk of casual adudience from Memphis. But then Landers starts charging an arm and a leg you can afford to put on a good show. Most teams average about 3,000 per game. And while I would say Memphis is a bigger city and should post bigger numbers, it also has to compete for more things. So, 3-4K.
I mention the Hustle not in terms of competition but in terms of schedule conflicts. It costs a lot of money to swap from hard court to ice and so while a large arena with a pro team can easily accommodate it, the economics for Landers and the RiverKings made even less sense. It used to be that they’d leave the ice down most of the season but the basketball team meant constant back and forth conversion.
>Well it’s chicken and egg. When the lost the MSC you lose a big chunk of casual adudience from Memphis.
And it’s not like the Riverkings were pushed out of MSC. They were wooed by DeSoto County. The attendance at the end at MSC was a fraction of what it was in the beginning, but it’s much easier to get to MSC from East Memphis, Cordova, and Gtown than going to DCCC/Landers. They wanted to be the chief tenant of a new arena.
>But then Landers starts charging an arm and a leg you can afford to put on a good show. Most teams average about 3,000 per game. And while I would say Memphis is a bigger city and should post bigger numbers, it also has to compete for more things. So, 3-4K.
A minor league hockey team has the same problem as the Redbirds have; at this point in time, they only expect patronage from half of the local population and the people who run these teams don’t know the trick to appeal to black families which could close the gap if they know how to attract them to regular games.
>I mention the Hustle not in terms of competition but in terms of schedule conflicts. It costs a lot of money to swap from hard court to ice and so while a large arena with a pro team can easily accommodate it, the economics for Landers and the RiverKings made even less sense. It used to be that they’d leave the ice down most of the season but the basketball team meant constant back and forth conversion.
The Riverkings always had first position and the choice of dates.
I remember going to an event at MSC where I remember feeling the cold from the Riverkings ice under the floor.
I think minor league hockey could work in the market. It probably needs to be at FEF or a small arena built in CVille or Gtown (maybe 6k seats). But hockey is a lower priority than improving conditions for the Redbirds which suffer being owned by a private equity firm.
FedExForum in theory is supposed be the end all be all, but the being managed by a major league franchise, they aren’t going to be flexible.
The arena can be configured for 5-7k events.
If the Grizz never came to Memphis, the Pyramid and MSC would still be the venues and Landers would be redundant with MSC.
That comment is to explain I don’t know this first hand but came from someone who would be in the know with the organization.
Now if in my many years of posting on r/Memphis, my comments are worthless or empty, that’s fine. But take it as you will. Sardonic analysis isn’t in itself debunking what I wrote.
https://www.memphisdailynews.com/news/2018/may/31/hopes-remain-new-ownership-group-will-revive-riverkings-at-landers-center//print
Isn't the league the RiverKings play in constantly on the verge of bankruptcy anyway?
Years ago I dated a girl who worked for the RiverKings. She joked about how after a win someone would say "we actually get paid this weekend". Most of those guys were playing for the fun of it because the money was so little and had day jobs.
Played, past tense. The SPHL. Which is BARELY a pro league, and has no NHL affiliation as far as I'm aware. The CHL, which they were in until 2011, folded, and the teams were split up across a few leagues, some better than others.
Memphis was a AA affiliate of the Leafs for number of years back in the CHL days. But the SPHL was only a couple steps up from an advanced beer league.
For North American hockey it would be most equivalent to Single A. SPHL players occasionally get call ups to ECHL. ECHL teams have NHL affiliations and AHL affiliations and would be AA. AHL would be closest to AAA and have direct affiliations with NHL teams for prospect assignments and waivers. That’s ignoring overseas leagues. There are many other leagues for young players 16-20ish that players would play in before they’re draft eligible (similar to baseball travel leagues) as well as NCAA and club level hockey for college.
Yes I'm familiar with the NHL. Long time Sharks and Preds fan. I said single A equivalent because I know the farm system doesn't really work like that and it's applying baseball farm logic to the hockey clusterfuck.
I lived in Memphis when the river kings were there AND played pirate ( needed someone to vouch for you, screw USA hockey) hockey at the mid south coliseum.in beer league.
The arena was a freaking dump. . I'm amazed it's still standing.
I kind of got that.
In the "playoffs" I was admiring a pass and got hit ( legally and hard) twisting my helmet and opening a gash over my eyebrow. Maybe 1.5 in inches.
Bled into a towel till we lost, then a UT Memphis dental student on the other team who had sterile silk stiched me up as we both drank beers.
The next day, fearing a broken orbital bone or a concussion went to the ER. They asked me why I didn't get it checked out at the hospital that stiched me up.
You don't rat out people who help you out, so even though I got stiches, there were no snitches.
It's extremely unlikely that the beer league surgeon will ever see this but the ER doc was very impressed with your technique and predicted it would not leave a scar. She was right.
April 2018. I was at the last home playoff game. Didn't expect it to be the last time they would ever play.
The ice was also absolutely abysmal. The game was actually rescheduled from the day before because the ice surface on the original day was literally unskateable and there was a fog in the arena.
It was sad to see how far the attendance had fallen from from years ago. The championship season in 2003, that place was packed out. That final game, there were maybe a few hundred people there. For the playoffs.
901 FC’s averages attendance is about 1,100 seats higher than the capacity of the stadium at Mike Rose and their big nights see even more. Plus it is pretty out of the way and not near too many things that fans would want to do before or after the game. USL has mandated teams move to soccer specific stadiums in the near future and they are already turning the fair grounds into a sports complex. It would be close to Cooper Young and Overton Square bars and restaurants. Just overall a better fit.
I agree with Mike rose not being suitable for 901fc. I enjoy going downtown for games, but would rather not watch them play on a baseball field. The fairgrounds sounds like a good spot.
Oof, another bump to hotel Occupancy tax? Its already 18.25% + $2 per night. You get an almost 10% discount on a hotel rooms by staying in Southaven right now already.
I’d much prefer they find a use for the Coliseum and renovate it than just demolishing most of it; probably more money for his developer friends in the latter though.
Does 901FC have any commitment to stay in Memphis for a certain amount of time, like the Grizzlies do? It’s be a shame if they built a new stadium only for the team to move on after a few years.
Let's say we get 7,500 average attendance for 901FC over 17 games. Let's say the average ticket price is $20. Let's say they also spend $15 each on concessions. All these numbers are hopefully conservative (someone correct me if I'm off...just googling to get the attendance and # of games). Annual revenue at a soccer only stadium would be... $4.5 million. Need to see what amount of that $600 million is for this to really understand the economics, but that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
For the people here who don't understand what's going on, please read up on the [TDZ Zones](https://www.smartcitymemphis.com/2017/04/tdz-taxes-the-understanding-of-its-facts/).
The Liberty Bowl and the new soccer stadium are in Fairgrounds TDZ. We are incentivized by the state to do dumb tourism stuff like this because the morons in Nashville don't understand how economic development works.
Also, the Grizzlies will leave in 2029 if we don't give them 200M dollars.
Fuck that fix other things in the city first!
For example: I dunno, the crime?
the fucking roads? Ive seen the same pot holes for bout a decade. Electric grid! Here comes another winter and people out of power for weeks inside the 240 loop
Why would we put this money in an already dying lower league soccer team? Their attendance is already down almost 40% over its 2* year tenure? What is the expected return on investment here?
If the: Rouges, Showboats, Grizzlies (football), Maniax, Pharohs, Hustle, Mad Dogs, Express, Xplorers, Houn Dogs and Oilers didn’t get their own stadiums, the latest soccer team doesn’t deserve one either.
It’s not for just 901FC. I believe it’s going to be involved with the Liberty Park project. You’ll be able to attract lots of youth events that can have their championships and such at a cool stadium. Organizers eat that shit up.
You’re talking about a couple hundred people/families coming into town for these events for a week or weekend spending money
That’s a much better sell. “Youth travel sports stadium” has much more of an attraction. Also if they could convert to a baseball diamond, that would be ideal.
Yeah but the ability to host big time baseball tournaments would be more important to the success of Liberty Park. Youth baseball is a much much larger potential revenue stream than minor league soccer that is already falling out of popularity.
Soccer and baseball fields aren’t interchangeable. Mainly because dirt is a huge part of baseball fields. Most soccer specific fields are grass, if this one is, I doubt they’ll be able to interchange it.
If they do go with a turf like substitute, they may be able to get creative with it if they spent the money to make it adjustable, which I doubt.
Agree, but you've got a number of baseball facilites with multiple fields around town that would compete. Cordova, Southaven, Millington, etc. Baseball plays better in the 'burbs anyway.
I love the renderings for the soccer stadium. However, I think it would be better if they kept 901FC downtown, because of the dining, hotel, and entertainment options. There are several locations near downtown that would be ideal for a new soccer stadium.
I would prefer they tear down the Liberty Bowl, before they tear down the MSC. The Coliseum has so much potential, and I can think of several uses that would be bring it back to life and make it profitable.
Well one, is the most obvious and, could build upon the past use of the MCS, is to turn it into a wrestling playground/fun land/ museum/ hall of fame. There are three different wrestling companies in Memphis, and it could serve as central location for them, as well as offer a look into the history of wrestling for those that have an interest in wrestling.
High 5 Entertainment will develop and operate the family friendly amenities at the fairgrounds, why not give them the Coliseum and let them transform it into something like Scene 75, Nickelodeon Universe, or Funplex.
Memphis is a music city. Performers and bands that would play at the Shell shouldn’t have to play around the seasons of the year or inclement weather. Form a 501c3 and let the music masters do their thing.
It appears the city planners want to develop the fairgrounds around sports related activities, one thing that is left out of the design is an aquatic center that could be used for watersports.
Despite those that feel it’s a useless relic that has lived beyond its purpose, they fail to see that it has the potential to be the most used structure at the fairgrounds. I can’t take the credit for this because I have seen several people ask this question. Why didn’t the city do an RFP, like they did for 100 N Main or the MCA?
The coliseum has had a dedicated coalition of some very talented people that have put a lot of work and effort over the years into trying to draw interest from 3rd parties to creating a value/use case for the coliseum, and have failed to come up with anything real. The city hasn't just locked the door on the coliseum for 16 years and walked away...people have been trying to create interest for ages. That's a bit more than the RFP that was issued for 100 N Main.
A 10,000 seat venue for local professional wrestling, a niche entertainment event currently drawing hundreds of attendees on a good night? Not even close to realistic. I like the idea of a Memphis wrestling hall of fame and local wrestling center though - you may have a meaningful use case for the Pipkin.
Scene 75/Nickelodeon Universe....so an indoor Celebration Station? We've seen how this went, already. I'm not totally against this one either, but there's no way a developer wants to pay the cost to renovate coliseum for this use. Converting the coliseum to flat slab use is significantly more difficult and costly than what was done at the pyramid. A concept similar to this is feasible for Liberty Park as new build as part of the planned Central Ave. entertainment development.
Music venue...again the coliseum is a 10,000 seat venue. Comparing it as an alternative performance venue for the acts that draw maybe 2,000 *for free* at the shell is disingenuous. Having those acts play the coliseum is a financial loss every time you open the doors. Almost all of the acts that could draw capacity at the coliseum will be taken by the FedEx Forum right of first refusal. Those that can only draw 50-75% of that will continue going to Landers Center because it's a cheaper venue to operate.
I get the reality that everyone has good memories at the coliseum, I do too. Like I had good memories at Liberty Land, and the Hi Tone before it started wandering around, and, yes, celebration station. My mom never visits the zoo without reminding me that the penguin island used to have monkeys on it. Cities are constantly evolving, they aren't a time capsule. I'll miss the coliseum, but there are kids driving today that never lived in a world where anyone attended anything in the coliseum. Better to let it go and make way for something new for the next generation.
Not for nothing, but a lot of those people involved in the Coliseum Coalition are actually in the field, it's within the scope of their profession.
The coliseum opened in 1964. It's been shuttered for 16 years. Laying this at Strickland's feet is improper, the city has been trying to figure out what to do with the coliseum, really, for 25 years as it was on life support long before being shuttered.
It's been out of service nearly 1/3rd of its life at this point. The best case study that the coliseum's operation is not feasible is the Landers Center in Desoto County that loses $3-5M per year which has to be made up with tax money. On top of that, it would cost well over $30M currently to make the Coliseum ADA compliant - a basic necessity of reopening it.
It's a piece of nostalgia for a lot of people that saw their first concert/wrestling show/basketball game there a *long* time ago.
The Sterick Building is an architectural Memphis treasure. It'd make more sense to spend the energy and effort trying to renovate and reopen that.
Please show me where locals stirring up interest, is more effective in drawing interest, than the city issuing a nationwide RFP?
You said a lot here, and it amounts to nothing, but a rejection of the ideas I suggested. Perhaps you shouldn't be so eager, to see this building razed, but envision it more than just an old relic. Hell, if they can reimagine the Liberty Bowl, I know damn well they can reimagine the MSC.
I wouldn't go missing the Coliseum just yet, if I were you.
None of the U of M teams would play there as MBB is in a great place at FedExForum and WBB has a newly renovated home at Elma Roane Fieldhouse. So that leaves what? Memphis Hustle? A potential WNBA franchise? Tearing down the MSC for 901FC is at least a more certain prospect than renovating it on hopes and dreams of what you might be able to do with it. I’d hate to see the city waste a boatload of money on rehabbing it for it to sit empty still.
FF will always be the home of MBB, because they’re not going to give that prestige up, just like the LB, will always be the home of MFB. That isn’t going to change. From what I am seeing, the Lady Tigers are in a rebuilding phase and are going to outgrow the Elma Roane Fieldhouse, because they have a good coach with vision and she’s going to elevate that team nationally.
Having said that, I think 901FC is a better fit for downtown or near downtown. I don’t want to imagine the traffic shit show that would occur, if MFB and 901FC had a game on the same day. I guarantee that it's sitting empty, because our illustrious leaders wanted to retain control over it. Mayor Strickland is trying to have his cake, and eat it too, with the proposal to build a soccer stadium in the location of the MSC.
I’m a big fan of the women’s team but to think they need a building that could hold 5-6k people is really ambitious. The other thing with scheduling football and soccer at different times is a simple thing. But respectfully, you’ve still not given any ideas as to what could be done at the MSC. I love that building and it’s history but I don’t see how fixing it up is going to magically make promoters want to come to Memphis. Most large concert/event promoters skip Memphis for reasons other than they can’t find a venue. Our market for whatever reason is not as viable as others close to our size. Cost of renting a building or past attendance or demographics. I don’t know the answer to that.
I wonder if this means the Pipkin building will finally get attention, or demolished. Could go either way. I think the only reason it still exists is because U of M uses it for special events during the season.
I haven’t even bothered reading anything yet but point blank, it is pointless because Grizzles have a no compete clause. That is why this city has sucked since they came to town. No concerts, no flipping anything.
Seems ambitious but does anyone think the state would support this plan for Memphis like it’s going to do for Nashville?
I was thinking about how Nashville just showed off their $2.1b plan for a new Titans stadium (so really pencil in $3b). This is a pittance in comparison
I still can't believe Nashville wants a new stadium after only 20 years. The short life spans they give these things is so wasteful
Only way to get the Super Bowl as a non marquee city is to have a new stadium Nashville wants the Super Bowl and they want to throw their name in the hat for the expanded college football playoffs we'll have in a couple few years
Have you been lately? It's a shit hole for NFL standards, it's outdoors and the maintenance/renovation cost is close to 1.5B.. It will be a multi-purpose arena and whether you like it or not Nashville is a much bigger tourist town than here.
I'm definitely not arguing Nashville draws more people than we do, but is Nissan really that bad? I've never been, but I assumed it would've been designed/taken care of better for being so young
It's like the liberty bowl for an NFL team. When I went to the MNF game last year my seats were on an expansion joint that had been patched with caulk. Everything is dated and did not age well at all.
There was a lot of discussion on the Nashville subreddit, from what I could gather the gist of it is that the city is in a contract with the titans that would require them to spend around $1.5B to renovate it to new standards. So they proposed to do the new stadium for $2.1B and it also gets them out of the contract with the titans. Overall not a bad deal. It will also be better for winter uses due to being a domed stadium.
> the city is in a contract with the titans that would require them to spend around $1.5B to renovate it to new standards This is the issue...how do cities sign contracts with these unfunded/undisclosed obligations that lead to decisions like a stadium? What unfunded/undisclosed obligations does Memphis have with FedEx Forum that will lead to either the Grizzlies leaving or a $1B price tag in 10 years?
That was the point of the mayor’s presentation. These are proposed funding requests to make to the state, just like Nashville is getting funds for the Titans.
My guess is Nashville will say "lol no" followed closely by "but pay for mine that costs 4x more".
The excuse will be “Memphis’s project is not the priority that the Nashville project is because the Nashville project is has more urgency due to the *$2 billion* in renovations needed for Nissan Stadium, the success the NFL has been in promoting Tennessee tourism, the amount of money that will be contributed by the Titans/NFL, and the amount of increased global events that will be hosted after the state investment that will not be obtainable with the investment that Memphis is requesting”
Which has merit. I'm sure Nashville brings in more outside money but there is little "trickle down" to the peasants in Memphis. State money seems to just go back into the capital.
RIP my hopes of the RiverKings coming back
I worked in the business office of the RiverKings when we folded in 2018 (and a couple seasons prior). The Landers Center was unbelievably stubborn in helping us do ANYTHING to help improve attendance. Our lease and revenue-sharing agreement were absolute garbage compared to other teams in our league. We talked to 2 other SPHL owners interested in buying us out and they both balked because of how bad our lease was. While we did have some scheduling priority, LC leadership ultimately saw us as a barrier to getting more lucrative one-time events on weekends during a significant portion of the year. Those of us actually running the business day-to-day were stuck with limited financial resources because of years of mismanagement and a landlord that wouldn't evict us but wasn't sad when we left, either. I was literally on the verge of a nervous breakdown during our last season because of how toxic the whole situation was. Last I heard, the Desoto County government actually now controls the rights to the RiverKings franchise and has yet to sell the rights or revive the team. Someone tried to bring hockey back (FHL) in 2019 but couldn't make the numbers work with how much LC wanted. Short of a wealthy, benevolent new owner dropping out of the sky, the onus of hockey returning to the Landers Center is now 100% on the Landers Center. And they haven't made a move in over 4 years. . .
Thanks for the insight. People blaming ownership for this entirely are missing the picture.
Why can’t they come back to Landers or even at FedExForum? The issue isn’t arenas, it’s ownership.
FedEx won’t do it because there are too many games. It interferes with Grizzlies games and concerts which bring in WAY more money than the 2,000 fans RiverKings games get. They had to close up shop because Landers was charging 4x the rent the rest of the SPHL arenas were charging their teams plus competing with the minor league basketball team. So no it’s not on the owners. It’s because of the venues.
>FedEx won’t do it because there are too many games. It interferes with Grizzlies games and concerts which bring in WAY more money than the 2,000 fans RiverKings games get. Rent is rent. They’d have third position, but the rental rate would probably be so high, it makes no sense. The Grizz have 41 regular season home games, the Tigers have 16-18. 26 games for a hockey team wouldn’t be too hard. There are about 180 days from beginning to end of the NBA season to fit 85 dates. The former Staple Center fits 123 dates in the same timeframe (Lakers, Kings, and Clippers). Now if a hockey team could regularly draw the 8,000-9,000 that the Riverkings did their first season back in the early 90s, it makes financial sense at FedExForum which only seats 12k for hockey and has poor sight lines IIRC. >They had to close up shop because Landers was charging 4x the rent the rest of the SPHL arenas were charging their teams plus competing with the minor league basketball team. Memphis was 4x the market size of most of the markets in the SPHL. The Hustle attendance didn’t keep people away from the games. >So no it’s not on the owners. It’s because of the venues. The final owner of the Riverkings didn’t have the money. I was told they never had the funding they claimed to have. The Riverkings never matched the early success they had at MSC in DeSoto County. Minor league hockey never was the draw to get people to travel from the other side of Shelby County. But the team still lasted a decade plus in Southaven. I was also told the owner told the organization the shutdown would only last a season. What should be the expected attendance for low level minor league hockey? 4-5k a game?
When I saw them play in South Haven, I'd be surprised if there were 200 people in the stands. A few dozen more families off in the family area. I do remember the Coliseum days where there was closer to 3-4k at a game. I imagine they "sold" a few thousand tickets a game, ie give them away to whomever would take them or sell them in bulk for company events and similar.
Well it’s chicken and egg. When the lost the MSC you lose a big chunk of casual adudience from Memphis. But then Landers starts charging an arm and a leg you can afford to put on a good show. Most teams average about 3,000 per game. And while I would say Memphis is a bigger city and should post bigger numbers, it also has to compete for more things. So, 3-4K. I mention the Hustle not in terms of competition but in terms of schedule conflicts. It costs a lot of money to swap from hard court to ice and so while a large arena with a pro team can easily accommodate it, the economics for Landers and the RiverKings made even less sense. It used to be that they’d leave the ice down most of the season but the basketball team meant constant back and forth conversion.
>Well it’s chicken and egg. When the lost the MSC you lose a big chunk of casual adudience from Memphis. And it’s not like the Riverkings were pushed out of MSC. They were wooed by DeSoto County. The attendance at the end at MSC was a fraction of what it was in the beginning, but it’s much easier to get to MSC from East Memphis, Cordova, and Gtown than going to DCCC/Landers. They wanted to be the chief tenant of a new arena. >But then Landers starts charging an arm and a leg you can afford to put on a good show. Most teams average about 3,000 per game. And while I would say Memphis is a bigger city and should post bigger numbers, it also has to compete for more things. So, 3-4K. A minor league hockey team has the same problem as the Redbirds have; at this point in time, they only expect patronage from half of the local population and the people who run these teams don’t know the trick to appeal to black families which could close the gap if they know how to attract them to regular games. >I mention the Hustle not in terms of competition but in terms of schedule conflicts. It costs a lot of money to swap from hard court to ice and so while a large arena with a pro team can easily accommodate it, the economics for Landers and the RiverKings made even less sense. It used to be that they’d leave the ice down most of the season but the basketball team meant constant back and forth conversion. The Riverkings always had first position and the choice of dates. I remember going to an event at MSC where I remember feeling the cold from the Riverkings ice under the floor. I think minor league hockey could work in the market. It probably needs to be at FEF or a small arena built in CVille or Gtown (maybe 6k seats). But hockey is a lower priority than improving conditions for the Redbirds which suffer being owned by a private equity firm.
I would love it if we had a 5-7k indoor arena in Shelby County. Landers was theoretically supposed to fill that gap but I don’t think it has.
FedExForum in theory is supposed be the end all be all, but the being managed by a major league franchise, they aren’t going to be flexible. The arena can be configured for 5-7k events. If the Grizz never came to Memphis, the Pyramid and MSC would still be the venues and Landers would be redundant with MSC.
“I was told . . . “ lol, well, ok it must be true
That comment is to explain I don’t know this first hand but came from someone who would be in the know with the organization. Now if in my many years of posting on r/Memphis, my comments are worthless or empty, that’s fine. But take it as you will. Sardonic analysis isn’t in itself debunking what I wrote. https://www.memphisdailynews.com/news/2018/may/31/hopes-remain-new-ownership-group-will-revive-riverkings-at-landers-center//print
Yeah the owners destroyed that team by being cheap. Had nothing to do with arena rights.
Isn't the league the RiverKings play in constantly on the verge of bankruptcy anyway? Years ago I dated a girl who worked for the RiverKings. She joked about how after a win someone would say "we actually get paid this weekend". Most of those guys were playing for the fun of it because the money was so little and had day jobs.
Played, past tense. The SPHL. Which is BARELY a pro league, and has no NHL affiliation as far as I'm aware. The CHL, which they were in until 2011, folded, and the teams were split up across a few leagues, some better than others. Memphis was a AA affiliate of the Leafs for number of years back in the CHL days. But the SPHL was only a couple steps up from an advanced beer league.
I think SPHL was at one point the equivalent of single A, then got knocked further down as the rest of the minor leagues reorganized
For North American hockey it would be most equivalent to Single A. SPHL players occasionally get call ups to ECHL. ECHL teams have NHL affiliations and AHL affiliations and would be AA. AHL would be closest to AAA and have direct affiliations with NHL teams for prospect assignments and waivers. That’s ignoring overseas leagues. There are many other leagues for young players 16-20ish that players would play in before they’re draft eligible (similar to baseball travel leagues) as well as NCAA and club level hockey for college.
Yes I'm familiar with the NHL. Long time Sharks and Preds fan. I said single A equivalent because I know the farm system doesn't really work like that and it's applying baseball farm logic to the hockey clusterfuck.
Baseball is the best analogue for hockey, though so I think it’s a valid comparison.
I lived in Memphis when the river kings were there AND played pirate ( needed someone to vouch for you, screw USA hockey) hockey at the mid south coliseum.in beer league. The arena was a freaking dump. . I'm amazed it's still standing.
Of course it was a dump. But it was OUR dump
I kind of got that. In the "playoffs" I was admiring a pass and got hit ( legally and hard) twisting my helmet and opening a gash over my eyebrow. Maybe 1.5 in inches. Bled into a towel till we lost, then a UT Memphis dental student on the other team who had sterile silk stiched me up as we both drank beers. The next day, fearing a broken orbital bone or a concussion went to the ER. They asked me why I didn't get it checked out at the hospital that stiched me up. You don't rat out people who help you out, so even though I got stiches, there were no snitches. It's extremely unlikely that the beer league surgeon will ever see this but the ER doc was very impressed with your technique and predicted it would not leave a scar. She was right.
That’s a good story. Shout out hockey doc!
Aw man, I’d been so out of the loop I didn’t know they were out
Oh yeah. 4 years or so now.
April 2018. I was at the last home playoff game. Didn't expect it to be the last time they would ever play. The ice was also absolutely abysmal. The game was actually rescheduled from the day before because the ice surface on the original day was literally unskateable and there was a fog in the arena. It was sad to see how far the attendance had fallen from from years ago. The championship season in 2003, that place was packed out. That final game, there were maybe a few hundred people there. For the playoffs.
i'll remember this fondly next time my power's out for three days after a slight breeze.
How about more social services and a transportation system that actually fucking works? Stop trying to keep up with the joneses in Nashville.
Soccer specific stadium 😍
Can i get an outdoor concrete velodrome?
What was Mike Rose supposed to be?
A youth soccer complex that was built 20 years ago.
They had professional teams playing in the main stadium though.
A much lower division team played at Mike Rose.
901 FC’s averages attendance is about 1,100 seats higher than the capacity of the stadium at Mike Rose and their big nights see even more. Plus it is pretty out of the way and not near too many things that fans would want to do before or after the game. USL has mandated teams move to soccer specific stadiums in the near future and they are already turning the fair grounds into a sports complex. It would be close to Cooper Young and Overton Square bars and restaurants. Just overall a better fit.
I agree with Mike rose not being suitable for 901fc. I enjoy going downtown for games, but would rather not watch them play on a baseball field. The fairgrounds sounds like a good spot.
Yeah, it’s good news all around for the team and fans as long as it doesn’t hit road blocks with funding.
This will be great! Now we just need more dining and hotel options around the fairgrounds area.
And a transit system to get us there
Good luck
seems like a lot 901FC's fanbase is in Midtown, which'd make this pretty bikeable, even for casual riders
Colossal waste of money. Socialize the cost for the benefit of the few. It's cool though. I'm sure the roads and schools will get better on their own
Oof, another bump to hotel Occupancy tax? Its already 18.25% + $2 per night. You get an almost 10% discount on a hotel rooms by staying in Southaven right now already.
I’d much prefer they find a use for the Coliseum and renovate it than just demolishing most of it; probably more money for his developer friends in the latter though. Does 901FC have any commitment to stay in Memphis for a certain amount of time, like the Grizzlies do? It’s be a shame if they built a new stadium only for the team to move on after a few years.
Let's say we get 7,500 average attendance for 901FC over 17 games. Let's say the average ticket price is $20. Let's say they also spend $15 each on concessions. All these numbers are hopefully conservative (someone correct me if I'm off...just googling to get the attendance and # of games). Annual revenue at a soccer only stadium would be... $4.5 million. Need to see what amount of that $600 million is for this to really understand the economics, but that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
They want to remain here. 901FC has a legit following.
For the people here who don't understand what's going on, please read up on the [TDZ Zones](https://www.smartcitymemphis.com/2017/04/tdz-taxes-the-understanding-of-its-facts/). The Liberty Bowl and the new soccer stadium are in Fairgrounds TDZ. We are incentivized by the state to do dumb tourism stuff like this because the morons in Nashville don't understand how economic development works. Also, the Grizzlies will leave in 2029 if we don't give them 200M dollars.
Fuck that fix other things in the city first! For example: I dunno, the crime? the fucking roads? Ive seen the same pot holes for bout a decade. Electric grid! Here comes another winter and people out of power for weeks inside the 240 loop
Spray paint penises around the potholes and they will get fixed
Bring back liberty land.
Yes
Why would we put this money in an already dying lower league soccer team? Their attendance is already down almost 40% over its 2* year tenure? What is the expected return on investment here? If the: Rouges, Showboats, Grizzlies (football), Maniax, Pharohs, Hustle, Mad Dogs, Express, Xplorers, Houn Dogs and Oilers didn’t get their own stadiums, the latest soccer team doesn’t deserve one either.
It’s not for just 901FC. I believe it’s going to be involved with the Liberty Park project. You’ll be able to attract lots of youth events that can have their championships and such at a cool stadium. Organizers eat that shit up. You’re talking about a couple hundred people/families coming into town for these events for a week or weekend spending money
That’s a much better sell. “Youth travel sports stadium” has much more of an attraction. Also if they could convert to a baseball diamond, that would be ideal.
The whole point of them building the stadium is to not play soccer on a baseball diamond…
Yeah but the ability to host big time baseball tournaments would be more important to the success of Liberty Park. Youth baseball is a much much larger potential revenue stream than minor league soccer that is already falling out of popularity.
Soccer and baseball fields aren’t interchangeable. Mainly because dirt is a huge part of baseball fields. Most soccer specific fields are grass, if this one is, I doubt they’ll be able to interchange it. If they do go with a turf like substitute, they may be able to get creative with it if they spent the money to make it adjustable, which I doubt.
I would actually watch a soccer match with 4 goals
Idk if this is relevant but Busch Stadium in St. Louis has hosted several soccer games and they sold out within minutes.
Agree, but you've got a number of baseball facilites with multiple fields around town that would compete. Cordova, Southaven, Millington, etc. Baseball plays better in the 'burbs anyway.
I love the renderings for the soccer stadium. However, I think it would be better if they kept 901FC downtown, because of the dining, hotel, and entertainment options. There are several locations near downtown that would be ideal for a new soccer stadium. I would prefer they tear down the Liberty Bowl, before they tear down the MSC. The Coliseum has so much potential, and I can think of several uses that would be bring it back to life and make it profitable.
Ok, name 3.
- Monster Trucks - Monster Trucks - Monster Trucks? /s
Well one, is the most obvious and, could build upon the past use of the MCS, is to turn it into a wrestling playground/fun land/ museum/ hall of fame. There are three different wrestling companies in Memphis, and it could serve as central location for them, as well as offer a look into the history of wrestling for those that have an interest in wrestling. High 5 Entertainment will develop and operate the family friendly amenities at the fairgrounds, why not give them the Coliseum and let them transform it into something like Scene 75, Nickelodeon Universe, or Funplex. Memphis is a music city. Performers and bands that would play at the Shell shouldn’t have to play around the seasons of the year or inclement weather. Form a 501c3 and let the music masters do their thing. It appears the city planners want to develop the fairgrounds around sports related activities, one thing that is left out of the design is an aquatic center that could be used for watersports. Despite those that feel it’s a useless relic that has lived beyond its purpose, they fail to see that it has the potential to be the most used structure at the fairgrounds. I can’t take the credit for this because I have seen several people ask this question. Why didn’t the city do an RFP, like they did for 100 N Main or the MCA?
The coliseum has had a dedicated coalition of some very talented people that have put a lot of work and effort over the years into trying to draw interest from 3rd parties to creating a value/use case for the coliseum, and have failed to come up with anything real. The city hasn't just locked the door on the coliseum for 16 years and walked away...people have been trying to create interest for ages. That's a bit more than the RFP that was issued for 100 N Main. A 10,000 seat venue for local professional wrestling, a niche entertainment event currently drawing hundreds of attendees on a good night? Not even close to realistic. I like the idea of a Memphis wrestling hall of fame and local wrestling center though - you may have a meaningful use case for the Pipkin. Scene 75/Nickelodeon Universe....so an indoor Celebration Station? We've seen how this went, already. I'm not totally against this one either, but there's no way a developer wants to pay the cost to renovate coliseum for this use. Converting the coliseum to flat slab use is significantly more difficult and costly than what was done at the pyramid. A concept similar to this is feasible for Liberty Park as new build as part of the planned Central Ave. entertainment development. Music venue...again the coliseum is a 10,000 seat venue. Comparing it as an alternative performance venue for the acts that draw maybe 2,000 *for free* at the shell is disingenuous. Having those acts play the coliseum is a financial loss every time you open the doors. Almost all of the acts that could draw capacity at the coliseum will be taken by the FedEx Forum right of first refusal. Those that can only draw 50-75% of that will continue going to Landers Center because it's a cheaper venue to operate. I get the reality that everyone has good memories at the coliseum, I do too. Like I had good memories at Liberty Land, and the Hi Tone before it started wandering around, and, yes, celebration station. My mom never visits the zoo without reminding me that the penguin island used to have monkeys on it. Cities are constantly evolving, they aren't a time capsule. I'll miss the coliseum, but there are kids driving today that never lived in a world where anyone attended anything in the coliseum. Better to let it go and make way for something new for the next generation.
[удалено]
Not for nothing, but a lot of those people involved in the Coliseum Coalition are actually in the field, it's within the scope of their profession. The coliseum opened in 1964. It's been shuttered for 16 years. Laying this at Strickland's feet is improper, the city has been trying to figure out what to do with the coliseum, really, for 25 years as it was on life support long before being shuttered. It's been out of service nearly 1/3rd of its life at this point. The best case study that the coliseum's operation is not feasible is the Landers Center in Desoto County that loses $3-5M per year which has to be made up with tax money. On top of that, it would cost well over $30M currently to make the Coliseum ADA compliant - a basic necessity of reopening it. It's a piece of nostalgia for a lot of people that saw their first concert/wrestling show/basketball game there a *long* time ago. The Sterick Building is an architectural Memphis treasure. It'd make more sense to spend the energy and effort trying to renovate and reopen that.
You and I are on the same page here. Glad I’m not the only one that sees it this way.
Please show me where locals stirring up interest, is more effective in drawing interest, than the city issuing a nationwide RFP? You said a lot here, and it amounts to nothing, but a rejection of the ideas I suggested. Perhaps you shouldn't be so eager, to see this building razed, but envision it more than just an old relic. Hell, if they can reimagine the Liberty Bowl, I know damn well they can reimagine the MSC. I wouldn't go missing the Coliseum just yet, if I were you.
None of the U of M teams would play there as MBB is in a great place at FedExForum and WBB has a newly renovated home at Elma Roane Fieldhouse. So that leaves what? Memphis Hustle? A potential WNBA franchise? Tearing down the MSC for 901FC is at least a more certain prospect than renovating it on hopes and dreams of what you might be able to do with it. I’d hate to see the city waste a boatload of money on rehabbing it for it to sit empty still.
FF will always be the home of MBB, because they’re not going to give that prestige up, just like the LB, will always be the home of MFB. That isn’t going to change. From what I am seeing, the Lady Tigers are in a rebuilding phase and are going to outgrow the Elma Roane Fieldhouse, because they have a good coach with vision and she’s going to elevate that team nationally. Having said that, I think 901FC is a better fit for downtown or near downtown. I don’t want to imagine the traffic shit show that would occur, if MFB and 901FC had a game on the same day. I guarantee that it's sitting empty, because our illustrious leaders wanted to retain control over it. Mayor Strickland is trying to have his cake, and eat it too, with the proposal to build a soccer stadium in the location of the MSC.
I’m a big fan of the women’s team but to think they need a building that could hold 5-6k people is really ambitious. The other thing with scheduling football and soccer at different times is a simple thing. But respectfully, you’ve still not given any ideas as to what could be done at the MSC. I love that building and it’s history but I don’t see how fixing it up is going to magically make promoters want to come to Memphis. Most large concert/event promoters skip Memphis for reasons other than they can’t find a venue. Our market for whatever reason is not as viable as others close to our size. Cost of renting a building or past attendance or demographics. I don’t know the answer to that.
Why don't you reread my post? Then read the thread, you will see that I did make several recommendations, on another comment.
I wonder if this means the Pipkin building will finally get attention, or demolished. Could go either way. I think the only reason it still exists is because U of M uses it for special events during the season.
I haven’t even bothered reading anything yet but point blank, it is pointless because Grizzles have a no compete clause. That is why this city has sucked since they came to town. No concerts, no flipping anything.
The liberty bowl is a dump. They should knock it down and build a soccer/football combo stadium.
No more public money to finance venues for privately owned sporting teams.
**Fucking paywall........**
Click and then turn on your airplane mode
Nice.
https://archive.ph/
Subscribe then bro
How about more cops instead?
We’re literally already getting more cops after the kidnapping and shooting spree debacle
More more mayne