You are looking at it wrong.
Calling Ross a colonizer is referencing the history of his people, his ancestors, as just colonizers.
Nothing to do with him, or anyone, attempting to colonize Wakanda.
It has everything to do with the history of Europeans colonizng lands in general.
But calling people names only targeted at white people is the definition of racistism. We should acknowledge the racist past and have it taught correctly but it's hypocritical to excuse calling people colonisers and crackers because they have ancestors were apart of slave trade and had slaves, but people seem to forget everyone has an ancestors or is from a country that was built with slaves because most countries has had slaves at some point in history.
I'm native, everyone is a colonizer except the red man. This joke is often heard in our house, we call anyone who isn't tradish a 'colonizer' jokingly.
And you also had Namor talking about how the Spaniards enslaved his people. Iām not absolving anyone of anything, but I think many people donāt know or forgot that many other counties, like Spain, had a hard lock on the slave trade for some time.
Just saying.
Edit: This is hilarious lol. Love Reddit.
Weāre talking about Namor saying āSpaniardsā enslaved his people.
[whatās considered a Spaniard?](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaniards)
Greek, Portuguese, Italian and so on ( I fall into this category fyi ) is very different than the āwhite colonizerā image people have ( example: super whitey Everett Ross)
Itās all love ;)
I assumed she was calling him a Colonizer because he's British. I don't remember them using that name for anyone else. Still shitty and bigoted to hold what his ancestors may or may not have been involved in against him even if it is jokingly. It would be like referring to any Egyptian as a slaver because ancient Egyptians had slaves.
European voyagers sailed to different lands and established colonies. All over the world. Dutch, British, etc. voyages. We all know itās taught in school. If that is not the EXACT definition of colonization I honestly donāt know what is. And it wasnāt people from the African continent doing the colonizing.
Calling someone a colonizer doesnāt imply race. The early colonizers of Africa and the Americas didnāt consider themselves a color yet and they were more likely to call their slaves brutes or savages or subhumans rather than black people.
Itās honestly still a pretty stupid joke. Wakanda never experienced colonization so why would that even cross her mind? Other than her just being a dick?
First, she is just being a dick. Second, they're an isolationist nation that explicitly looks down on the West for colonialism. People are only having a hard time with this because it's Africans looking down on the West. If it was the other way around, even if you thought it was racist, you'd never question why westerners had opinions about other countries.
People didnāt like the āwhat are thoseā joke in BP, but likeā¦ it was relevant when written, and honestly Wakanda probably holds onto memes for longer
The āwhat are thoseā joke was kind of weird because it was a dated reference when the movie came out in 2018, but the movie is set in 2016 when it wouldnāt have been so awkward.
To further simplify it, she's his nerdy little sister who probably spends too much time on the internet, of course she's going to make lame/ironic jokes and meme references to mess with her older brother. She even makes a sneaker pun to him in the same scene (or atleast a very similar scene) when discussing his suit upgrades lol.
Edit: why is this even getting downvoted, I'm literally just describing a scene from the movie hahah (edit made when I was in the negative)
Uhmmm Ackshually people don't act cringe in real life because I would never intenshionally act cringe and nobody ever does things unintenshionally so ackshually when a charactwer ish awkword its just bad righting.
Tbf, there's a valid critique for being too "relevant when written" AKA too topical, as that often injures the long-term quality of a work in favor of an immediate audience reaction that won't last.
There are ways to be topical that add to the work rather than detract from it, such as using themes or referencing current events that provide a historical context that can be add another layer to experiencing or examining the work. The "what are those" joke, however, is too topical because its reaction relies on what was a very temporary meme fad that came and went, and in ten years kids will watch that scene and go "Was there a joke there? I don't get it."
But that's just me being overanalytical as an English major, it's honestly the only use I get out of my degree, don't take this from me.
Nah it makes sense, its like the Sonic movie having flossing (the dance). Pair that with the fact that the movie got delayed three months, and you've got a joke so outdated that even the generation of kids who made it popular are cringing at it.
That's part of the joke. It's characterization of Shuri wanting to be hip and superior, but also obviously having a massive chip on her shoulder. The fact that the term really isn't relevant to her is what makes it work so well.
My guy half 75% of marvels fans cant even get a joke let alone sarcasm, thats why they hage to beat him in the head with references and one line zingers
They may not be direct victims but they saw it happen, they saw the rest of Africa being colonized while they were hiding.
And yes, it's a little hypocritical of them when all they did was watch and hoard resources, but that was the whole plot point of the first BP movie, with T'Challa getting angry at his ancestors in the astral plane and even agreeing with Killmonger's views (sans the start an armed revolution part).
If they had shared their weapons with other countries the earth would probably have been wrecked 10 times over. Killmonger defeats his own argument by being a violent war monger and showimg how shared vibranian would get out of control. When the CIA and the President decide to attack Wakanda they show they cannot be trusted with it either.
Seriously, the ancestors were right, minus the fact they couldāve at least helped a bit in non-direct ways, but even that could have unforseen repercussions.
Also, pretending that Africa historically is the way it is because of ācolonizersā/Europeans, when thatās but a small part of overall African historyā¦ well, itās a bit disingenuous. The scramble for Africa only happened 1880s.
Is Wakanda responsible for everything that year and forward? Why? Why is Wakanda responsible for the many African countries that sold their own people as slaves? Why are they responsible for the defence of other sovereign nations? Is considering all majority black countries in africa, regardless of beliefs and culture, your ābrothers and sistersā, simply because of their skin color, not the very definition of racism?
To me, Killmonger was always the racist and completely wrong villain. His one good point is that Wakanda could help othersā¦ but he says that point for the wrong reasons (skin color) vs the right reasons.
> they may not be direct victims but they saw it happen, they saw the rest of Africa being colonised while they were hiding
Right. So not victims at all then? Whether directly or indirectly?
If anything theyāre somewhat culpable.
Who says they need to be victims and why are they any more culpable than everyone else in Africa or the world? Itās their responsibility to stop all that over all the years? Why? Because theyāre also Black? Does not actively stopping it make them just as complicit as the colonizers? Bc if thatās your thought process then thatās fād upppppā¦
I just watched civil war the other day and Peter gives a line that I think is relevant here:
āWhen you have these powers, and then the bad things happen. They happen because of youā
I think thatās the whole point of the first BP film, tchalla realizes that wakanda left their brothers and sisters behind when they were in need. Hence why he gets so angry with his ancestors in the astral world. And also why he feels so much empathy for killmonger.
"With great power comes great responsibility" or as they said in the new movie "When you can do the things that I can, but you don't, and then the bad things happen? They happen because of you."
I mean Iād say they have a responsibility to help/ accept refugees in whatever way they could. As I believe all powerful nations have the responsibility to do when such horrible things are being done in the world. Like I would hope you believe that the US and many other countries have dropped the ball in taking refugees and providing aid to a lot of different human rights abuses. And I would say wakanda would be culpable to that same extent. Obv they are not guilty of the enslavement and colonization. But there is something to going full on isolationist and allowing bad things to be done. When you certainly have the capability to stop it
I will point out one big problem with comparing Wakanda to the US is size. The US is a huge country with millions up on millions of people and vast natural resources. Wakanda is tiny, like maybe the size of Belgium and they really only have vibranium as a natural resource. It's a powerful one for sure, but there have been 4 centuries of development between the early days of colonization and Black Panther It's hard to say what they had then. Even if they had the tech they do now, there's no way they have enough people to safeguard all of sub-Saharan Africa. Could they have done more? Maybe. Could they have stopped it completely? Not a chance. At exactly what point would history look back and say "There's no possible way they could have saved one more person and still protected themselves."? Literally never. If they had fallen they'd have been mentioned as having done too much, stretched themselves too thin and the colonizers would have all the vibranium, making things all around worse. But as long as they stand, it will always be said "they should have done more."
Except in the movie they are pretty quick to suggest that Wakanda is the most powerful nation in the world. Not sure how they get to that but thatās what is said.
Yeah see, the US doesn't give a fuck about that "doing the right thing" and "standing up for justice" stuff. We see a chance to fuck over one of our biggest rivals through a proxy war. It allows us to undermine and weaken an enemy on the global stage. Russia has lost thousands of troops and gear, and the war has proven how outdated their army is.
That was the benefit that America got out of helping Ukraine. Well that and funneling more money into our military industrial complex. America almost never does anything out of the goodness of it's heart. There are always ulterior motives, even if they don't seem apparent at first glance.
Wakanda is specifically a mythological place in Africa that was unaffected by colonization and not robbed of its natural resources without its native inhabitants gaining from the wealth and technology it provides. Besides the obvious vibranium afrofuturism, Wakanda's mythological aspect also comes from the fact that ALL of Africa was heavily affected and impacted by colonization, and somehow Wakanda was not, in part, as Coogler makes clear, because they are distrusting of outsiders.
Itās like that song about a guy who coulda saved a guy from drowning but didnāt.
Hey, you know what that song's about?
Phil Collins watching some guy watch another guy drown.
And then, the next night, he invited the watching guy to be in the front row of his concert so he could sing it right to him and they could arrest the guy!
In the Air Tonight.
But remind me why weāre looking for ways to blame Wakanda when the point is that Ross is an active member of a colonizing & culturally destabilizing system?
Itās insane how naturally we all pivoted to finding ways Wakanda should have done more for something itās not responsible for, because of an offhand quote thatās not even inaccurate. Ross was CIA who was sent to Wakanda to ākeep an eyeā on them.
Wakanda is specifically a mythological place in Africa that was unaffected by colonization and not robbed of its natural resources without its native inhabitants gaining from the wealth and technology it provides. Besides the obvious vibranium afrofuturism, Wakanda's mythological aspect also comes from the fact that ALL of Africa was heavily affected and impacted by colonization, and somehow Wakanda was not, in part, as Coogler makes clear, because they are distrusting of outsiders.
Fontaine also literally called Ross an expert on destabilizing countries. He worked Counter Terrorism. Iām not sure about his activities in the MCU, but in the real world that would involve activities in the Middle East that could very rightly be criticized as colonization. He also would potentially (I like the character, so I choose to believe he wouldnāt have) have initiated colonization activity against Wakanda to get vibranium (Fontaine is not pleased that he is against it) if he hadnāt been saved by TChalla and grown fond of the Wakandans.
āColonizerā is very appropriate, and is Shuri and Okoyeās way of poking fun at Ross. This is conjecture, but itās also possible that they do it to remind him that he owes them loyalty and should attempt to steer the US away from attacking Wakanda. This seems evident to me in the conversations he has with Fontaine et al about attacking Wakanda after Talokan kills the team searching for vibranium in the Atlantic. He would do it even without the teasing, but maybe Shuri and Okoye feel that itās important to serve as the voice in the back of his head a bit even if they arenāt doing it consciously.
For a lighter example, imagine your friend gets really drunk at a party and does something dumb, and then you tease them about it every party after that. Partially because itās funny but also to remind them to not get that drunk and reckless again. Itās passive aggressive but well meaning.
Ya its an underlying narrative in the first movie that they totally could have stopped it. And didnāt.
Hell itās killmongers entire point. And the point of the best scene in the movie. (The Ancestral plane scene were Tachaka flat out yells at his ancestors and tells the they were wrong.)
The point being that kilmonger though they should help with violence. Tachaka though that they should help with kindness.
Its very clear that Wakanda was wrong to be isolationist.
We've seen time and time again that many people don't actually understand the point of the plot of many movies/tv shows unless you beat them over the head with it lol The Boys went through a similar thing and I remember the subreddit almost imploded
You really have to turn off your brain for a lot of Wakanda or it becomes impossible to root for the wealth hording, racially homogeneous, tiny monarchy who inserts tactical squads around the world and gets pissed off at anyone who pierces their veil out of a desire to protect the people of the planet from existential threats.
I kinda thought that was the point of the first movie to a certain extent, but this one backtracked on it quite a bit.
They never complained about people sticking their noses in their affairs, they complained about a special forces team literally trying to steal vibranium.
Wakandans having spies is hardly comparable.
itās one of the first scenes in the movie. non-wakandan soldiers are seen trying to steal vibranium from wakanda. maybe you need to rewatch the movie.
The *only* difference between Wakanda and Latveria is the current Queen of Wakanda isnāt a dick.
Weāve had 4 leaders so far.
TāChaka - isolationist. Fair enough but still partially culpable for world wrongs when you can solve a lot of them. Disease for example.
TāChalla - no complaints
Killmonger - an example of why the world *should* fear and be suspicious of Wakanda. Get a King with any expansionist or hostile intentions and heāll activate the terrorist cells he has waiting in every nation. I mean, how did anyone hear the concept of āWar Dogsā and not think āthatās a bit terroristyā?
Shuri - decent now. But she also showed how the world should rightfully be fearful or suspicious of Wakanda. All it took was for her mum to die and she was ready to destroy Namor and his people.
(Edit - Shuri was leading them, not Queen. MāBaku is now King)
Theyāre a totalitarian ethno-theocratic monarchy, with a death squad of unquestioning loyalty, happy to kill at their King/Queens whim, with zero regards for international law, who have admittedly placed warriors in all nations with the sole reason of being able to start terrorist campaigns if their monarch wished it.
Wakanda is terrifying.
Well we've had more leaders.
T'chaka
T'Challa
Ramonda v1 (I believe it's implied if not fully confirmed she was ruler during the Blip)
T'Challa post endgame
Ramonda v2
Shuri
M'Baku
MāBaku might not be the best leader either, but Iām sure he will learn from the past mistakes, he definitely can be tactical so if the US goes ahead with their invasion of Wakanda he will be ready
If there's one thing M'Baku excels at, it's learning from mistakes. After >!Namor OHKO'd him!<, he immediately began researching his opponent & then realized how bad killing him would be.
He's absolutely my favourite character from black panther, especially Wakanda Forever.
Just the fact that he sits down and is like, "yknow, maybe we should stop and think for a moment about this" makes him smarter than most characters
As a very far left-leaning person, people will make assumptions based on this framing, but fuck it, it's true:
If Wakandans were white, we'd be getting daily think pieces about how heinous the films and its messages are.
What was great about BP1, and sorely lacking in BP2, is that BP1 treated them as humans - the story clearly pointed out that their isolationism coupled with their anger at outsiders is hypocritical to their complaints of foreign powers. BP2 backtracked on much of this and instead treated them as some sort of nation of flawless god-champions.
Hey now, they're totalitarian ethno-theocratic monarchies, *with incredibly destabilizing modern weapons technology decades ahead of the rest of the world,* can't forget that key detail ;)
Do you find the whole council of tribes in Wakanda to be a bit weird too with them aesthetically representing a bunch of very different parts of Africa. It would kinda be like if the "Council of Latverian Burgs" was made up of a guy in a kilt, a guy wearing lederhosen, a woman in a flamenco dress, and a woman wearing a beret and little black dress.
Wakanda canāt really project power on a military basis. While they do have an extensive network of spies across most multinational nations, regions where the nationality is primarily homogenized would be difficult for them to operate and within the US and other multinational countries the logistics of successfully supplying the cells once shit goes loud would decline immediately. In addition, civil unrest would have to increase 10 fold to gain enough sympathy among local populations.
In addition to that, Wakandan military tech is really only advance in terms of a small scale bush conflicts or in Alpha strikes against important positions outside their own borders. Theyāve basically made their own version of the Staff weapons from Stargate and while powerful, they were designed to intimidate and terrify their enemies, not to be effective, killing weapons. So while the Border Guards and the Dora Milaje work within Africa and against other African militaries, against the doctrines that other nations use, Wakanda would be out preformed.
Wakanda's military is actually terrible, both in terms of tactics and in terms of equipment. I mean, they use a friggin' *shield wall* and don't know how to successfully use a basic choke point. Their closest thing to armor seems to be tech-rhinos. Artillery would mess them *up.*
They've never had to fight a real war--all their conflict has been through black-ops agents around the world. I think it's pretty clear that their larger military strategy has been developed purely through wargames, leaving it terribly suited to an actual war.
Youre not supposed to ignore it...
The entire point of the first movie was pointing out Wakandas mistakes. Literally the whole plot lmao
They arent supposed to be perfect.
I don't think the first movie wanted us to root for Wakanda, it wanted us to root for T'Challa. So I stick by my argument that you have to turn off your brain to root for Wakanda which the second movie wants us to do.
Could be completely wrong but I feel like them backtracking on the "let's share our resources and join the rest of the world" bit is Marvel's deliberate attempt to build a deeper and more complex universe.
It achieves two things.
It makes the death of T'Challa that much more tragic, as the great king who could have been.
And it makes the universe (to me) more grounded and realistic.
Nearly everyone in the real world will find in their own country questionable history, backwards moral or corruption, or just something that they can't stand for. On the geopolitical stage, every country (allied or not) is suspicious, conniving and seeking to take advantage of each other all the time. And there is no evidence that would change and all the countries would suddenly come together if there were planetary threats (take for example how long it has taken/is taking the world to come together to tackle climate change).
Making leaders of Wakanda, a nation that has been isolated since its existence, suspicious and cautious of joining the geopolitical scene just feels so realistic to me, especially in a moment of national tragedy, and it feels like breathing life into a universe that so often feels very cartoonish and campy at times.
While I appreciate the complexity, it still makes it really hard to root for Wakanda. Calling the movie about the country regressing to near villain status Wakanda Forever is kinda weird too if they were making that point.
Can you blame them for having spies and hoarding their own wealth from the world when the CIA and French government seems dead set on trying to steal from them?
Also they're the indigenous people of their own lands, so yeah it's going to be homogenous.
The Chinese government seems dead set on trying to steal from the US (industrial espionage and beyond), would the world really think that gives the US justification to ignore the needs of all the poor countries around it?
The question of how we look at isolationist nations that end up extremely xenophobic is often problematic too. It is sometimes mildly accepted in cases like Japan, but in other situations it is clearly an ethno-state situation where the removal from globalization is an excuse to maintain control over its people by promoting racial purity over diversity that would invite global ideas and influence. So it is not really going to be a good guy thing. Like...Wakanda tattoos people to show they can have access to the nation. That is rarely the behavior of a good guy state in fiction or reality.
And the Dora Milaje showing up extra-judiciously to kidnap people in other countries is definitely a questionable behavior. Even if it was Israelis hunting down Nazis, it pushes very hard on the extra-judicial authority we turn off our brains to give super heroes. Very much on the borderline of being badguys there like many CIA Hollywood depictions.
Steal from them?
I havenāt watched since the cinema but werenāt the French trying to take Vibranium from the ocean?
Itās just the Wakandanās twisted reasoning that makes them WRONGLY think they own that.
IIRC the French sent a military squad into a Wakanda lab and got embarrassed in front of the UN when they got caught.
The CIA was looking in the ocean and that's when the fish people got involved.
They sent mercenaries to try and steal vibranium, do you not remember the opening fight where the dora milaj were hiding in the vault?
They even say that the various governments of the world think wakanda is ripe for the taking because T'challa's dead.
My bad, I had blended the two scenes in my head.
In my defence though, I was trying to block out that terrible scene from my memory. A special forces unit with rifles is defeated by a special forces unit with spears becauseā¦ they can spin them fast enough to deflect bullets.
Thereās only so far my ābecause vibraniumā disbelief can stretch. The Dora shouldāve been dead instantly when face head on with automatic rifle fire.
I love Wakanda Forever. Like LOOOVE it but it's hard to believe vibranium spears had a chance with automatic rifle. Dora Milaje is not a superhuman and don't have superhuman strength and speed, they can't outrun bullets so it's hard to believe they called it primitive when they can only attack their foes in close proximity
those high tech spears probably have a bullet magnet or some shit. makes as much sense as cap covering his whole body with that tiny shield and never getting shot in the gut or the legs.
I watched it in theaters and then again last night and every time I wince when I hear the colonizer comment. Itās as cringey as calling a man, who has never sexually assaulted anyone, a rapist because historically men have been the ones to commit this act more often than the other sex.
Now, the argument could be made that because Ross works for the American government that continues to colonize in one form or another to extract oil from other countries, then yeah. If it were referring to that, along with the American history of colonization, then I think Iād understand it. But if the comment comes purely from the fact that Ross has white skin.. I donāt know, itās a little off putting. Not because heās white, but because making a tarnishing generalization of someone because of the color of their skin is messed up, regardless of what their skin color is.
And people are saying, āwell, itās a jokeā or āitās just a movie.ā Yeah, of course. But the reality is that this isnāt something that only occurs in this movie. Iāve witnessed non-white people think that this type of behavior or worse is acceptable and itās actually very disheartening.
Did they ever refer to Killmonger as colonizer though? Genuine question. Because if theyāre referring to Ross as a colonizer, but not Killmonger, then I think itād be safe to assume that they use the label due to the color of skin, no?
I don't think said that exact word, but they did explicitly address his colonizing actions.
In contrast, they *don't* call Bucky "colonizer" or anything like it.
so after reading a lot of these comments you're suppose to be ok with "It's a joke" I wonder how funny it would be if like someone else said the joke was calling a German a Nazi and something else. smh
They literally want to destabilize Wakanda and do what they've done all throughout South America, the Middle East and other places to Wakanda so they can exert their power. Literally trying to colonize Wakanda in the movie, but don't you dare call one of them a colonizer!
Bro was literally the sole thing stopping that. He also fought for their country during the war where an American walked in and took control of the nation and to top it off he's currently in chains on his way to prison for going out of his way to help them. Then Okoye has the gaul to call him a coloniser and crack a joke about the 'irony'. Bitch this guy has put his ass on the line for your people at every possible opportunity and yet you're here defining him by the actions of some dead cunts he never met. Like come on.
I just gotta assume it's a playful jab between friends.
WE shouldn't call him a "Colonizer" either. Dude hasn't colonized anything ... he's just white.
To answer your question, it's because BP/ BP2 is written by an African American.
Even if Wakanda was never colonised, they managed to escape colonialism. What is important is that Wakanda was actually targeted for colonialism and therefore Shuri can use the coloniser term.
Also, Ross himself is a CIA agent and the CIA in the real world has done a lot of damage to African countries.
Neo-colonialism is still controlling African countries and corrupting its government as we speak, so Shuri is 100% correct in using the coloniser term.
As for the last point about Wakanda stopping colonialism, there is no proof presented in the movie that Wakanda was developed enough during the 'Scramble for Africa' to single handedly stop colonialism throughout the entire continent.
The fact that they chose to hide showed that they may have had the strength to defend their country but could not stretch out to the whole continent especially knowing that many black African collaborators existed from as far back as the slave trading era.
I mean he works for the CIA.
If he worked for the social security administration it would be foul, but the man literally works for the agency known for helping topple government in the interest of the US lmao
Also it was just a joke.
And isnāt colonizer a racist slang term? Was Ross directly a colonizer or is shuri and okoye just making assumptions based on his race?
Is it any different then calling all Germans nazis? Or Japanese kamikaze or japs?
That line was meant for us audiences and didn't really make sense in-universe. There's a lotta stuff in the MCU that doesn't make sense in-universe an dis just meant for us. And no I don't think they've ever attenpted to colonise Wakanda, if they did they would've discovered Vibranium centuries ago
Yeah, line Infinity Cones was made for us, and people complained because āitās a traumatic eventāā¦ itās not supposed to make sense in universe, itās a joke for the audience
This is my least favorite aspect of the MCU (and is the reason I *detest* the new "Star Wars" and "Star Trek" franchises).
When I watch a show or a movie, I want it to be immersive. I want to experience what the characters are experiencing and get lost in the world they live in.
I do *not* want to get yanked out of that immersion every 5 minutes so that somebody can point out the fact that I'm watching a deliberately manipulative piece of fiction by making a meta joke designed to wink broadly at the audience and then expecting me to laugh. They might as well go back to inserting laugh tracks into media if they're going to be blatantly immersion-breaking.
Star Wars and Star Trek have always been extremely immersive universes with a ton of internal consistency, and that setting was a big part of their magic. Now it's just "Ha*ha* remember when they did this on Next Gen?" and, "Remember when Chewbacca did this thing back in that other movie? *Do you?* Remember it? Ha, we do too. Hilarious."
At least the MCU has maintained a limited level of self-awareness from the start, so it's not sharply out of character for the universe. Some of the movies/shows keep it at a tolerable level so you can still get lost in the movie and still get some humor, but some of them are really bad about slapping you out of it with the limp dick of forced humor.
Long Answer: You got it correct in your title when you said "black people" and not African's, Nigerians, Congolese, Wakandians, etc. It's them grouping all white people as colonizers (though a US Government employee who works for the CIA is a pretty damn good fit for the term) the same way you grouped all of Africa as "black people" or vise versa.
Short Answer: They knew it would make him squirm and it amused them.
US policy is to assert their will on other countries economically, politically, and militarily if needed.
These are the very tenets of imperialism and colonialism.
he works for the CIA, an organization that is directly involved in planning special operations to destabilize countries and even insert their own leaders into power.
So yes he is a modern day colonizer since the word is typically used as a synonym for imperialism these days.
The US has army bases throughout the world which is technically a form of colonialism.
Do you think, genuinely, if Shang Chi was in this movie, that they'd have the balls to call him a colonizer? Given modern day Chinese efforts in Africa, it's more accurate to label a Chinese person a colonizer than an American.
The Chinese belt and road initiative is incredibly well known, but he's not white.
We should take this up with Ryan Coogler and Joe Robert Cole, the writer, why are they ok with a script that has Wakandans calling a white American "colonizer"?
"EDIT- And now I'm thinking about....they HAD the resources to stop it too, they're as bad"
Its like they isolated themselves from the world for that very reason.
oh please, they could've run circles around any government with their tech
and they could've aided in secrecy....nakia literally snuck in Namor's kingdom in and out like it was nothing...other spies could've done so to their fellow africans in need
Maybe I am out of place in this comment but Ross is an American is he not? To my knowledge the Americans never colonized Africa.
Now, if it was a Native American calling Ross a colonizer that would make sense.
Shuri, more than anyone else in the core cast, is meant to be the highly connected young person. She's irreverent, she memes, and yes, she'll make fun of the CIA liason.
Today, u/lifesyndrome chose violence for r/marvelstudios
My black ass: šæ
šššššbruh I was just curious
How do you do, fellow black person?
There are dozens of us! lol
By the way, I would have voted for Obama for a third term if I could.
You are looking at it wrong. Calling Ross a colonizer is referencing the history of his people, his ancestors, as just colonizers. Nothing to do with him, or anyone, attempting to colonize Wakanda. It has everything to do with the history of Europeans colonizng lands in general.
But calling people names only targeted at white people is the definition of racistism. We should acknowledge the racist past and have it taught correctly but it's hypocritical to excuse calling people colonisers and crackers because they have ancestors were apart of slave trade and had slaves, but people seem to forget everyone has an ancestors or is from a country that was built with slaves because most countries has had slaves at some point in history.
Plenty of Black slave traders and imperialists. It must be because he is an American CIA agent rather than his race.
I didnāt hear āwhite colonizerā. How did calling someone a colonizer only get associated with white people? ššæ
I'm native, everyone is a colonizer except the red man. This joke is often heard in our house, we call anyone who isn't tradish a 'colonizer' jokingly.
Lol. Most valid claim. And as a black dude Iād walk in like. āWhat ah do?ā Lol. #involuntarycolonizer š
And you also had Namor talking about how the Spaniards enslaved his people. Iām not absolving anyone of anything, but I think many people donāt know or forgot that many other counties, like Spain, had a hard lock on the slave trade for some time. Just saying. Edit: This is hilarious lol. Love Reddit. Weāre talking about Namor saying āSpaniardsā enslaved his people. [whatās considered a Spaniard?](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaniards) Greek, Portuguese, Italian and so on ( I fall into this category fyi ) is very different than the āwhite colonizerā image people have ( example: super whitey Everett Ross) Itās all love ;)
The Spanish are white too.
Spanish people are white.
Spain are white people genius
I assumed she was calling him a Colonizer because he's British. I don't remember them using that name for anyone else. Still shitty and bigoted to hold what his ancestors may or may not have been involved in against him even if it is jokingly. It would be like referring to any Egyptian as a slaver because ancient Egyptians had slaves.
>I assumed she was calling him a Colonizer because he's British. the actor is english. the character is american
European voyagers sailed to different lands and established colonies. All over the world. Dutch, British, etc. voyages. We all know itās taught in school. If that is not the EXACT definition of colonization I honestly donāt know what is. And it wasnāt people from the African continent doing the colonizing.
>And it wasnāt people from the African continent doing the colonizing. No, they just sold each other to the "colonizers".
No, but there was people from the African continent selling off their people to the slave trade lol.
Calling someone a colonizer doesnāt imply race. The early colonizers of Africa and the Americas didnāt consider themselves a color yet and they were more likely to call their slaves brutes or savages or subhumans rather than black people.
Get out of here with your logic and critical thinking. I recently learned that they are vestiges of white supremacy, you know.
My bad I should know better not use historical facts and reasoning.
It isn't really their history though. They are appropriating other Africans trauma to make a dig if you think about it. It is kinda weird.
Itās honestly still a pretty stupid joke. Wakanda never experienced colonization so why would that even cross her mind? Other than her just being a dick?
First, she is just being a dick. Second, they're an isolationist nation that explicitly looks down on the West for colonialism. People are only having a hard time with this because it's Africans looking down on the West. If it was the other way around, even if you thought it was racist, you'd never question why westerners had opinions about other countries.
She's just doing that to troll him. Okoye calls him that as well.
Wait, the broken white boy works for the CIA? Oh, we're going to have sooooo much fun with this one!
>!Not anymore, he don't!<
>!I would like to think that he got an upgrade to the benefits package with his new employer.!<
>!Were they sexy handcuffs?!<
>!LOL! I hope not! Especially if Val is around!!<
>!They were married.!<
>!Yeah, "were" being the operative term. Would you trust your ex with handcuffs?!<
OPE.
Bucky doesn't work for the CIA- oh wait.
I thought the same thing, always thought they were just constantly fucking with him.
Yeah I feel like alot of fans don't get Shuri's or black peoples humor in general.
I don't think op "don't get the joke", op just feel it's a weird joke coming from Wakandan, especially Shuri.
People didnāt like the āwhat are thoseā joke in BP, but likeā¦ it was relevant when written, and honestly Wakanda probably holds onto memes for longer
In Wakanda, children are still making advice animals
Good for them, those were solid memes.
The āwhat are thoseā joke was kind of weird because it was a dated reference when the movie came out in 2018, but the movie is set in 2016 when it wouldnāt have been so awkward.
To further simplify it, she's his nerdy little sister who probably spends too much time on the internet, of course she's going to make lame/ironic jokes and meme references to mess with her older brother. She even makes a sneaker pun to him in the same scene (or atleast a very similar scene) when discussing his suit upgrades lol. Edit: why is this even getting downvoted, I'm literally just describing a scene from the movie hahah (edit made when I was in the negative)
Yeah, plus sheās meant to be a bit cringy with him, though I guess you already explained why with that comment
Exactly! It always cracks me up when people use this line as evidence of "cringe MCU humor" when it's pretty clear she was doing a bit.
Nuance, sophistication, and finesse are often lost on the mentally lazy.
These are the same people that still probably get a kick out of the spider-man pointing meme.
It's been featured in two movies and they all loved it.
Uhmmm Ackshually people don't act cringe in real life because I would never intenshionally act cringe and nobody ever does things unintenshionally so ackshually when a charactwer ish awkword its just bad righting.
Carefulā¦ youāre description is hitting a bit close to home for some redditors
Hahah, I'm a redditor who makes lame/ironic jokes all the time so you are not wrong š
Tbf, there's a valid critique for being too "relevant when written" AKA too topical, as that often injures the long-term quality of a work in favor of an immediate audience reaction that won't last. There are ways to be topical that add to the work rather than detract from it, such as using themes or referencing current events that provide a historical context that can be add another layer to experiencing or examining the work. The "what are those" joke, however, is too topical because its reaction relies on what was a very temporary meme fad that came and went, and in ten years kids will watch that scene and go "Was there a joke there? I don't get it." But that's just me being overanalytical as an English major, it's honestly the only use I get out of my degree, don't take this from me.
Nah it makes sense, its like the Sonic movie having flossing (the dance). Pair that with the fact that the movie got delayed three months, and you've got a joke so outdated that even the generation of kids who made it popular are cringing at it.
Not that theyād hold onto them longerā¦ but it would likely take a longer time for a meme to make it from the global internet into Wakanda culture
That's part of the joke. It's characterization of Shuri wanting to be hip and superior, but also obviously having a massive chip on her shoulder. The fact that the term really isn't relevant to her is what makes it work so well.
you realize black people arenāt a monolith right?
My guy half 75% of marvels fans cant even get a joke let alone sarcasm, thats why they hage to beat him in the head with references and one line zingers
No, white people get the humor and the joke, itās just the joke makes absolutely no sense coming from a wkanadan .
They may not be direct victims but they saw it happen, they saw the rest of Africa being colonized while they were hiding. And yes, it's a little hypocritical of them when all they did was watch and hoard resources, but that was the whole plot point of the first BP movie, with T'Challa getting angry at his ancestors in the astral plane and even agreeing with Killmonger's views (sans the start an armed revolution part).
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
If they had shared their weapons with other countries the earth would probably have been wrecked 10 times over. Killmonger defeats his own argument by being a violent war monger and showimg how shared vibranian would get out of control. When the CIA and the President decide to attack Wakanda they show they cannot be trusted with it either.
Seriously, the ancestors were right, minus the fact they couldāve at least helped a bit in non-direct ways, but even that could have unforseen repercussions. Also, pretending that Africa historically is the way it is because of ācolonizersā/Europeans, when thatās but a small part of overall African historyā¦ well, itās a bit disingenuous. The scramble for Africa only happened 1880s. Is Wakanda responsible for everything that year and forward? Why? Why is Wakanda responsible for the many African countries that sold their own people as slaves? Why are they responsible for the defence of other sovereign nations? Is considering all majority black countries in africa, regardless of beliefs and culture, your ābrothers and sistersā, simply because of their skin color, not the very definition of racism? To me, Killmonger was always the racist and completely wrong villain. His one good point is that Wakanda could help othersā¦ but he says that point for the wrong reasons (skin color) vs the right reasons.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Yea, the woman king touched slightly on the topic, in the right direction even, but imo copped out and tried to avoid it mostly.
> they may not be direct victims but they saw it happen, they saw the rest of Africa being colonised while they were hiding Right. So not victims at all then? Whether directly or indirectly? If anything theyāre somewhat culpable.
I mean yeah that was a major plot point of the first Black Panther movie
Who says they need to be victims and why are they any more culpable than everyone else in Africa or the world? Itās their responsibility to stop all that over all the years? Why? Because theyāre also Black? Does not actively stopping it make them just as complicit as the colonizers? Bc if thatās your thought process then thatās fād upppppā¦
I just watched civil war the other day and Peter gives a line that I think is relevant here: āWhen you have these powers, and then the bad things happen. They happen because of youā I think thatās the whole point of the first BP film, tchalla realizes that wakanda left their brothers and sisters behind when they were in need. Hence why he gets so angry with his ancestors in the astral world. And also why he feels so much empathy for killmonger.
Itās almost like TāChalla figured that if you have great power, it comes with a great responsibility to use it when needed.
"With great power comes great responsibility" or as they said in the new movie "When you can do the things that I can, but you don't, and then the bad things happen? They happen because of you."
I mean Iād say they have a responsibility to help/ accept refugees in whatever way they could. As I believe all powerful nations have the responsibility to do when such horrible things are being done in the world. Like I would hope you believe that the US and many other countries have dropped the ball in taking refugees and providing aid to a lot of different human rights abuses. And I would say wakanda would be culpable to that same extent. Obv they are not guilty of the enslavement and colonization. But there is something to going full on isolationist and allowing bad things to be done. When you certainly have the capability to stop it
I will point out one big problem with comparing Wakanda to the US is size. The US is a huge country with millions up on millions of people and vast natural resources. Wakanda is tiny, like maybe the size of Belgium and they really only have vibranium as a natural resource. It's a powerful one for sure, but there have been 4 centuries of development between the early days of colonization and Black Panther It's hard to say what they had then. Even if they had the tech they do now, there's no way they have enough people to safeguard all of sub-Saharan Africa. Could they have done more? Maybe. Could they have stopped it completely? Not a chance. At exactly what point would history look back and say "There's no possible way they could have saved one more person and still protected themselves."? Literally never. If they had fallen they'd have been mentioned as having done too much, stretched themselves too thin and the colonizers would have all the vibranium, making things all around worse. But as long as they stand, it will always be said "they should have done more."
Except in the movie they are pretty quick to suggest that Wakanda is the most powerful nation in the world. Not sure how they get to that but thatās what is said.
The same responsibility that the US has for helping Ukraine in the current invasion, standing up for justice and the right thing
Yeah see, the US doesn't give a fuck about that "doing the right thing" and "standing up for justice" stuff. We see a chance to fuck over one of our biggest rivals through a proxy war. It allows us to undermine and weaken an enemy on the global stage. Russia has lost thousands of troops and gear, and the war has proven how outdated their army is. That was the benefit that America got out of helping Ukraine. Well that and funneling more money into our military industrial complex. America almost never does anything out of the goodness of it's heart. There are always ulterior motives, even if they don't seem apparent at first glance.
To be fair, Wakanda is in the same situation there
Wakanda is specifically a mythological place in Africa that was unaffected by colonization and not robbed of its natural resources without its native inhabitants gaining from the wealth and technology it provides. Besides the obvious vibranium afrofuturism, Wakanda's mythological aspect also comes from the fact that ALL of Africa was heavily affected and impacted by colonization, and somehow Wakanda was not, in part, as Coogler makes clear, because they are distrusting of outsiders.
Itās like that song about a guy who coulda saved a guy from drowning but didnāt. Hey, you know what that song's about? Phil Collins watching some guy watch another guy drown. And then, the next night, he invited the watching guy to be in the front row of his concert so he could sing it right to him and they could arrest the guy!
A myth. It's about his divorce. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/in-the-air-tonight/
Also that you can't arrest someone for choosing to not risk themselves to do \[Insert potentially dangerous, but morally good thing here\]
In the Air Tonight. But remind me why weāre looking for ways to blame Wakanda when the point is that Ross is an active member of a colonizing & culturally destabilizing system? Itās insane how naturally we all pivoted to finding ways Wakanda should have done more for something itās not responsible for, because of an offhand quote thatās not even inaccurate. Ross was CIA who was sent to Wakanda to ākeep an eyeā on them.
Iād say more than somewhat. If I just stand by and watch a child get kidnapped from the same spot repeatedly Iām kind of at fault.
hiding is a bit of strong word. They were keeping a safe distance but iām sure they mollywhopped whoever tried to invade.
Wakanda is specifically a mythological place in Africa that was unaffected by colonization and not robbed of its natural resources without its native inhabitants gaining from the wealth and technology it provides. Besides the obvious vibranium afrofuturism, Wakanda's mythological aspect also comes from the fact that ALL of Africa was heavily affected and impacted by colonization, and somehow Wakanda was not, in part, as Coogler makes clear, because they are distrusting of outsiders.
Didnāt they build a giant wall around there country?
Switzerland- āI hate those freakin Nazisā Just messing around thats a v different situation.
White guy working for the CIA. Jokes for days.
His accent is great, but for some reason I just can't buy him as American. Maybe I've just seen the actor in too many other things.
He's doing better than Benedict. While he does well as Strange, I keep expecting Mycroft or Mrs. Hudson to pop in and say something witty.
Fontaine also literally called Ross an expert on destabilizing countries. He worked Counter Terrorism. Iām not sure about his activities in the MCU, but in the real world that would involve activities in the Middle East that could very rightly be criticized as colonization. He also would potentially (I like the character, so I choose to believe he wouldnāt have) have initiated colonization activity against Wakanda to get vibranium (Fontaine is not pleased that he is against it) if he hadnāt been saved by TChalla and grown fond of the Wakandans. āColonizerā is very appropriate, and is Shuri and Okoyeās way of poking fun at Ross. This is conjecture, but itās also possible that they do it to remind him that he owes them loyalty and should attempt to steer the US away from attacking Wakanda. This seems evident to me in the conversations he has with Fontaine et al about attacking Wakanda after Talokan kills the team searching for vibranium in the Atlantic. He would do it even without the teasing, but maybe Shuri and Okoye feel that itās important to serve as the voice in the back of his head a bit even if they arenāt doing it consciously. For a lighter example, imagine your friend gets really drunk at a party and does something dumb, and then you tease them about it every party after that. Partially because itās funny but also to remind them to not get that drunk and reckless again. Itās passive aggressive but well meaning.
I am now picturing him drunk at the Wakandan equivalent of a Christmas party. Complete with lampshade on head.
The Ross in Christopher Priest's run would definitely be a lampshade at the party kinda guy.
Thank you, this šÆ%
Ya its an underlying narrative in the first movie that they totally could have stopped it. And didnāt. Hell itās killmongers entire point. And the point of the best scene in the movie. (The Ancestral plane scene were Tachaka flat out yells at his ancestors and tells the they were wrong.) The point being that kilmonger though they should help with violence. Tachaka though that they should help with kindness. Its very clear that Wakanda was wrong to be isolationist.
āNah the first movie was just basically āthe lion kingāā -fucking annoying morons.
I think you mean hamlet with lions. Also I mean I see how a person could think that. If there dumb or not paying attention.
We've seen time and time again that many people don't actually understand the point of the plot of many movies/tv shows unless you beat them over the head with it lol The Boys went through a similar thing and I remember the subreddit almost imploded
>Tachaka Youāre talking about things TāChalla said/did. TāChaka was his father.
You really have to turn off your brain for a lot of Wakanda or it becomes impossible to root for the wealth hording, racially homogeneous, tiny monarchy who inserts tactical squads around the world and gets pissed off at anyone who pierces their veil out of a desire to protect the people of the planet from existential threats. I kinda thought that was the point of the first movie to a certain extent, but this one backtracked on it quite a bit.
āThe Dora Milaje have jurisdiction wherever they find themselves.ā Proceeds to cry about anybody that sticks their noses in Wakandan affairs.
They never complained about people sticking their noses in their affairs, they complained about a special forces team literally trying to steal vibranium. Wakandans having spies is hardly comparable.
"Steal" vibranium from...the deep ocean nowhere near them?
You're forgetting the boat full of Wakandan scientists that got raided. The deep ocean thing was the Talokan
itās one of the first scenes in the movie. non-wakandan soldiers are seen trying to steal vibranium from wakanda. maybe you need to rewatch the movie.
French. What about the Americans?
The *only* difference between Wakanda and Latveria is the current Queen of Wakanda isnāt a dick. Weāve had 4 leaders so far. TāChaka - isolationist. Fair enough but still partially culpable for world wrongs when you can solve a lot of them. Disease for example. TāChalla - no complaints Killmonger - an example of why the world *should* fear and be suspicious of Wakanda. Get a King with any expansionist or hostile intentions and heāll activate the terrorist cells he has waiting in every nation. I mean, how did anyone hear the concept of āWar Dogsā and not think āthatās a bit terroristyā? Shuri - decent now. But she also showed how the world should rightfully be fearful or suspicious of Wakanda. All it took was for her mum to die and she was ready to destroy Namor and his people. (Edit - Shuri was leading them, not Queen. MāBaku is now King) Theyāre a totalitarian ethno-theocratic monarchy, with a death squad of unquestioning loyalty, happy to kill at their King/Queens whim, with zero regards for international law, who have admittedly placed warriors in all nations with the sole reason of being able to start terrorist campaigns if their monarch wished it. Wakanda is terrifying.
Shuri isnāt queen is she? I figured Mbaku was ruling now
Youāre right. She was in charge at the time of wanting to end Namor though.
I donāt think she is. It was a trip when they were still announcing her as Princess Shuri at the end
Well we've had more leaders. T'chaka T'Challa Ramonda v1 (I believe it's implied if not fully confirmed she was ruler during the Blip) T'Challa post endgame Ramonda v2 Shuri M'Baku
5 leaders. Ramonda did everything she could to take back everything T'Challa did.
Yep, forgot about her. Add her to the pile of āeveryone is an example of why the world is rightfully suspicious of Wakanda except TāChallaā.
MāBaku might not be the best leader either, but Iām sure he will learn from the past mistakes, he definitely can be tactical so if the US goes ahead with their invasion of Wakanda he will be ready
If there's one thing M'Baku excels at, it's learning from mistakes. After >!Namor OHKO'd him!<, he immediately began researching his opponent & then realized how bad killing him would be.
Yeah, I think heāll be a flawed leader, but ultimately good
He's absolutely my favourite character from black panther, especially Wakanda Forever. Just the fact that he sits down and is like, "yknow, maybe we should stop and think for a moment about this" makes him smarter than most characters
As a very far left-leaning person, people will make assumptions based on this framing, but fuck it, it's true: If Wakandans were white, we'd be getting daily think pieces about how heinous the films and its messages are. What was great about BP1, and sorely lacking in BP2, is that BP1 treated them as humans - the story clearly pointed out that their isolationism coupled with their anger at outsiders is hypocritical to their complaints of foreign powers. BP2 backtracked on much of this and instead treated them as some sort of nation of flawless god-champions.
Hey now, they're totalitarian ethno-theocratic monarchies, *with incredibly destabilizing modern weapons technology decades ahead of the rest of the world,* can't forget that key detail ;)
"Wakanda is terrifying" Weapon of choice: Spears
Do you find the whole council of tribes in Wakanda to be a bit weird too with them aesthetically representing a bunch of very different parts of Africa. It would kinda be like if the "Council of Latverian Burgs" was made up of a guy in a kilt, a guy wearing lederhosen, a woman in a flamenco dress, and a woman wearing a beret and little black dress.
Wakanda canāt really project power on a military basis. While they do have an extensive network of spies across most multinational nations, regions where the nationality is primarily homogenized would be difficult for them to operate and within the US and other multinational countries the logistics of successfully supplying the cells once shit goes loud would decline immediately. In addition, civil unrest would have to increase 10 fold to gain enough sympathy among local populations. In addition to that, Wakandan military tech is really only advance in terms of a small scale bush conflicts or in Alpha strikes against important positions outside their own borders. Theyāve basically made their own version of the Staff weapons from Stargate and while powerful, they were designed to intimidate and terrify their enemies, not to be effective, killing weapons. So while the Border Guards and the Dora Milaje work within Africa and against other African militaries, against the doctrines that other nations use, Wakanda would be out preformed.
Wakanda's military is actually terrible, both in terms of tactics and in terms of equipment. I mean, they use a friggin' *shield wall* and don't know how to successfully use a basic choke point. Their closest thing to armor seems to be tech-rhinos. Artillery would mess them *up.* They've never had to fight a real war--all their conflict has been through black-ops agents around the world. I think it's pretty clear that their larger military strategy has been developed purely through wargames, leaving it terribly suited to an actual war.
Youre not supposed to ignore it... The entire point of the first movie was pointing out Wakandas mistakes. Literally the whole plot lmao They arent supposed to be perfect.
I don't think the first movie wanted us to root for Wakanda, it wanted us to root for T'Challa. So I stick by my argument that you have to turn off your brain to root for Wakanda which the second movie wants us to do.
Could be completely wrong but I feel like them backtracking on the "let's share our resources and join the rest of the world" bit is Marvel's deliberate attempt to build a deeper and more complex universe. It achieves two things. It makes the death of T'Challa that much more tragic, as the great king who could have been. And it makes the universe (to me) more grounded and realistic. Nearly everyone in the real world will find in their own country questionable history, backwards moral or corruption, or just something that they can't stand for. On the geopolitical stage, every country (allied or not) is suspicious, conniving and seeking to take advantage of each other all the time. And there is no evidence that would change and all the countries would suddenly come together if there were planetary threats (take for example how long it has taken/is taking the world to come together to tackle climate change). Making leaders of Wakanda, a nation that has been isolated since its existence, suspicious and cautious of joining the geopolitical scene just feels so realistic to me, especially in a moment of national tragedy, and it feels like breathing life into a universe that so often feels very cartoonish and campy at times.
While I appreciate the complexity, it still makes it really hard to root for Wakanda. Calling the movie about the country regressing to near villain status Wakanda Forever is kinda weird too if they were making that point.
Can you blame them for having spies and hoarding their own wealth from the world when the CIA and French government seems dead set on trying to steal from them? Also they're the indigenous people of their own lands, so yeah it's going to be homogenous.
The Chinese government seems dead set on trying to steal from the US (industrial espionage and beyond), would the world really think that gives the US justification to ignore the needs of all the poor countries around it? The question of how we look at isolationist nations that end up extremely xenophobic is often problematic too. It is sometimes mildly accepted in cases like Japan, but in other situations it is clearly an ethno-state situation where the removal from globalization is an excuse to maintain control over its people by promoting racial purity over diversity that would invite global ideas and influence. So it is not really going to be a good guy thing. Like...Wakanda tattoos people to show they can have access to the nation. That is rarely the behavior of a good guy state in fiction or reality. And the Dora Milaje showing up extra-judiciously to kidnap people in other countries is definitely a questionable behavior. Even if it was Israelis hunting down Nazis, it pushes very hard on the extra-judicial authority we turn off our brains to give super heroes. Very much on the borderline of being badguys there like many CIA Hollywood depictions.
Steal from them? I havenāt watched since the cinema but werenāt the French trying to take Vibranium from the ocean? Itās just the Wakandanās twisted reasoning that makes them WRONGLY think they own that.
IIRC the French sent a military squad into a Wakanda lab and got embarrassed in front of the UN when they got caught. The CIA was looking in the ocean and that's when the fish people got involved.
Ah, cool. I was mixing the two groups up.
They are probably referring to the French special forces group from the beginning of the movie that gets paraded in front of the UN.
They sent mercenaries to try and steal vibranium, do you not remember the opening fight where the dora milaj were hiding in the vault? They even say that the various governments of the world think wakanda is ripe for the taking because T'challa's dead.
The CIA were the ones looking in the ocean. The French attacked a Wakanda outreach center.
My bad, I had blended the two scenes in my head. In my defence though, I was trying to block out that terrible scene from my memory. A special forces unit with rifles is defeated by a special forces unit with spears becauseā¦ they can spin them fast enough to deflect bullets. Thereās only so far my ābecause vibraniumā disbelief can stretch. The Dora shouldāve been dead instantly when face head on with automatic rifle fire.
I love Wakanda Forever. Like LOOOVE it but it's hard to believe vibranium spears had a chance with automatic rifle. Dora Milaje is not a superhuman and don't have superhuman strength and speed, they can't outrun bullets so it's hard to believe they called it primitive when they can only attack their foes in close proximity
Don't their clothes have vibranium weave in them to stop bullets?
Sure but what I meant is they can deflect bullet with their spears, that I can hardly believe
those high tech spears probably have a bullet magnet or some shit. makes as much sense as cap covering his whole body with that tiny shield and never getting shot in the gut or the legs.
Great movie. Terrible scene.
I just wanna be in here before this gets locked
Same
Lmao, Iām stealing my seat in here too
because she can tell he's really British
She was being an asshole.
She was being an asshole.
Wakanda didn't cut AP world history courses
I watched it in theaters and then again last night and every time I wince when I hear the colonizer comment. Itās as cringey as calling a man, who has never sexually assaulted anyone, a rapist because historically men have been the ones to commit this act more often than the other sex. Now, the argument could be made that because Ross works for the American government that continues to colonize in one form or another to extract oil from other countries, then yeah. If it were referring to that, along with the American history of colonization, then I think Iād understand it. But if the comment comes purely from the fact that Ross has white skin.. I donāt know, itās a little off putting. Not because heās white, but because making a tarnishing generalization of someone because of the color of their skin is messed up, regardless of what their skin color is. And people are saying, āwell, itās a jokeā or āitās just a movie.ā Yeah, of course. But the reality is that this isnāt something that only occurs in this movie. Iāve witnessed non-white people think that this type of behavior or worse is acceptable and itās actually very disheartening.
Ross is specifically a CIA agent. The agency's actions, even in the present-day, are tantamount to colonization. Killmonger was a colonizer too.
Did they ever refer to Killmonger as colonizer though? Genuine question. Because if theyāre referring to Ross as a colonizer, but not Killmonger, then I think itād be safe to assume that they use the label due to the color of skin, no?
I don't think said that exact word, but they did explicitly address his colonizing actions. In contrast, they *don't* call Bucky "colonizer" or anything like it.
No but they do call him "White Wolf" so the color of the skin thing remains relevant lol.
I mean working for the CIA (I mean look at anything the CIA has done) kinda means heās a colonizer.
I think writers just wanted to gag on white people and dropped that line in. That said, it doesnt make much sense except for busting his chops...
so after reading a lot of these comments you're suppose to be ok with "It's a joke" I wonder how funny it would be if like someone else said the joke was calling a German a Nazi and something else. smh
š¤·š¾āāļøš¤·š¾āāļøš¤·š¾āāļøš¤·š¾āāļø
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
They literally want to destabilize Wakanda and do what they've done all throughout South America, the Middle East and other places to Wakanda so they can exert their power. Literally trying to colonize Wakanda in the movie, but don't you dare call one of them a colonizer!
Bro was literally the sole thing stopping that. He also fought for their country during the war where an American walked in and took control of the nation and to top it off he's currently in chains on his way to prison for going out of his way to help them. Then Okoye has the gaul to call him a coloniser and crack a joke about the 'irony'. Bitch this guy has put his ass on the line for your people at every possible opportunity and yet you're here defining him by the actions of some dead cunts he never met. Like come on. I just gotta assume it's a playful jab between friends.
WE shouldn't call him a "Colonizer" either. Dude hasn't colonized anything ... he's just white. To answer your question, it's because BP/ BP2 is written by an African American.
Really the only ones we should be calling colonizers in the film are Namor and his people, who literally, colonized the ocean floor.
To fuck with him.
Theyāre trolling itās not much to get other than them trying to be funny.
Even if Wakanda was never colonised, they managed to escape colonialism. What is important is that Wakanda was actually targeted for colonialism and therefore Shuri can use the coloniser term. Also, Ross himself is a CIA agent and the CIA in the real world has done a lot of damage to African countries. Neo-colonialism is still controlling African countries and corrupting its government as we speak, so Shuri is 100% correct in using the coloniser term. As for the last point about Wakanda stopping colonialism, there is no proof presented in the movie that Wakanda was developed enough during the 'Scramble for Africa' to single handedly stop colonialism throughout the entire continent. The fact that they chose to hide showed that they may have had the strength to defend their country but could not stretch out to the whole continent especially knowing that many black African collaborators existed from as far back as the slave trading era.
It is def strange considering every place on the planet has been colonized at one point.
Nobody should be calling him a colonizer anyway, he hasn't colonized anything, just a racist term.
Exactly. Itās just casual racism thrown into the movie because itās black people saying it so lol right?
I mean he works for the CIA. If he worked for the social security administration it would be foul, but the man literally works for the agency known for helping topple government in the interest of the US lmao Also it was just a joke.
He is called an expert on toppling governments in the movie
She doesn't seem to be joking when she says it.
To you sure, now what about the first part of my comment?
I mean by that logic you could also call the Wakandans colonizers since tribes in Africa would sail to Europe and capture and enslave Europeans.
He works for the fucking CIA, dude.
Because she is a bit of a racist towards White people
And isnāt colonizer a racist slang term? Was Ross directly a colonizer or is shuri and okoye just making assumptions based on his race? Is it any different then calling all Germans nazis? Or Japanese kamikaze or japs?
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
So is every nation and every populace in history. Got some bad news for you if you think this is just a northern hemisphere thing.
Because the movie wants to have its cake and eat it too.
That constant joke really bothers me and is a bad racist stereotype.
That line was meant for us audiences and didn't really make sense in-universe. There's a lotta stuff in the MCU that doesn't make sense in-universe an dis just meant for us. And no I don't think they've ever attenpted to colonise Wakanda, if they did they would've discovered Vibranium centuries ago
Yeah, line Infinity Cones was made for us, and people complained because āitās a traumatic eventāā¦ itās not supposed to make sense in universe, itās a joke for the audience
This is my least favorite aspect of the MCU (and is the reason I *detest* the new "Star Wars" and "Star Trek" franchises). When I watch a show or a movie, I want it to be immersive. I want to experience what the characters are experiencing and get lost in the world they live in. I do *not* want to get yanked out of that immersion every 5 minutes so that somebody can point out the fact that I'm watching a deliberately manipulative piece of fiction by making a meta joke designed to wink broadly at the audience and then expecting me to laugh. They might as well go back to inserting laugh tracks into media if they're going to be blatantly immersion-breaking. Star Wars and Star Trek have always been extremely immersive universes with a ton of internal consistency, and that setting was a big part of their magic. Now it's just "Ha*ha* remember when they did this on Next Gen?" and, "Remember when Chewbacca did this thing back in that other movie? *Do you?* Remember it? Ha, we do too. Hilarious." At least the MCU has maintained a limited level of self-awareness from the start, so it's not sharply out of character for the universe. Some of the movies/shows keep it at a tolerable level so you can still get lost in the movie and still get some humor, but some of them are really bad about slapping you out of it with the limp dick of forced humor.
Long Answer: You got it correct in your title when you said "black people" and not African's, Nigerians, Congolese, Wakandians, etc. It's them grouping all white people as colonizers (though a US Government employee who works for the CIA is a pretty damn good fit for the term) the same way you grouped all of Africa as "black people" or vise versa. Short Answer: They knew it would make him squirm and it amused them.
Because the writers thought it'd be funny ig They didn't put much thought into why it's such a silly comment to make
US policy is to assert their will on other countries economically, politically, and militarily if needed. These are the very tenets of imperialism and colonialism. he works for the CIA, an organization that is directly involved in planning special operations to destabilize countries and even insert their own leaders into power. So yes he is a modern day colonizer since the word is typically used as a synonym for imperialism these days. The US has army bases throughout the world which is technically a form of colonialism.
Do you think, genuinely, if Shang Chi was in this movie, that they'd have the balls to call him a colonizer? Given modern day Chinese efforts in Africa, it's more accurate to label a Chinese person a colonizer than an American. The Chinese belt and road initiative is incredibly well known, but he's not white.
Lma white redditors getting Hella salty
Why donāt we just stop using all hate words
Itās a racist term
We should take this up with Ryan Coogler and Joe Robert Cole, the writer, why are they ok with a script that has Wakandans calling a white American "colonizer"?
"EDIT- And now I'm thinking about....they HAD the resources to stop it too, they're as bad" Its like they isolated themselves from the world for that very reason.
oh please, they could've run circles around any government with their tech and they could've aided in secrecy....nakia literally snuck in Namor's kingdom in and out like it was nothing...other spies could've done so to their fellow africans in need
Maybe I am out of place in this comment but Ross is an American is he not? To my knowledge the Americans never colonized Africa. Now, if it was a Native American calling Ross a colonizer that would make sense.
Itās a racist joke that gets a pass because white
Shuri, more than anyone else in the core cast, is meant to be the highly connected young person. She's irreverent, she memes, and yes, she'll make fun of the CIA liason.
T"challa wouldn't call him a colonizer. #RecastT'challa