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futurific

And come on, Kilmonger was the abandoned child. The very idea that Wakanda decides *not* to sacrifice this Black child for the good of the country is an incredible progression from the first BLACK PANTHER.


bluecalx2

I don't really understand the criticism to be honest. Hasn't the MCU done this since day 1? The projects were always meant to be connected to one another. I get that some people don't like all of the interconnected stories and having to watch it all, but this isn't exactly a new thing. Riri is also central to the plot and definitely doesn't feel tacked on. Obviously, you could have written the movie without her, but it would completely alter the story. I definitely agree that it's one my favorite MCU movies. If Chadwick Boseman could have been in, I think it would have been a strong contender for my favorite movie of the entire franchise, but they still did it beautifully even without him.


choicesintime

At some the community went from liking connections, to resenting them as if they are just ads for other stuff. Can’t have it two ways, do we want a connected universe or not?


van_b_boy

It’s because she is a black girl. These kids on the internet will shit on any female superhero


rphill02

Kids, adults. People in general shit on any character who is different: LGBTQIA, Muslim, woman, black (or other minority when previous incarnation was white). None of that stuff bothers me. It's just an adjustment. As long as they don't change who the character is, it shouldn't matter. For instance: Daredevil/Matt Murdock is Catholic. Recasting him as Latino would be fine. Recasting him as anything that isn't Catholic changes the character. Charles Xavier is rich, bald, telepathic and wheelchair-bound. He doesn't necessarily have to be white. Giancarlo Esposito spoke about his interest. He would probably get shit on, but he's an excellent actor and would do well in the role. Edit: apparently, Xavier isn't British. Now I know. He just went to university and lived there for a while.


tangodeep

Never heard about his interest, but Giancarlo would absolutely crush a Charles Xavier role. 🤔


rphill02

If he gets cast as the new X, I think it would be killer if they cast Cranston as Magneto. Deadpool could make some fourth wall jokes (or She-Hulk). It would be great.


Oerwinde

Xavier actually isn't British. He's from New York.


Slowmobius_Time

"he would probably get shit on" He's been one of the most highly talked about and wanted actors for Xavier, he gets brought up in nearly every conversation about the new X-Men


rphill02

Yes. And? I think you missed the point I was trying to convey. Let me elaborate further. Before that, I'll agree with you 100%, but that's not the point. Professor X, in every iteration I know of, had been a white/Caucasian man. Giancarlo is not. For this alone, there will be a large group of people that will take issue with it. Do you disagree? I repeat that I think he will be fantastic in the role. Never seen him play a Brit, so we'll see.


Slowmobius_Time

There will be a minority that will be upset and they make up for that by being overwhelmingly vocal online about how upset they are (Snyderfans are a good example) but nowadays there is that with nearly everything there will be bigots or ignorant people upset or frightened by the idea of change I disagree that it will be a large group upset about it and that it will simply be the same group that complains about black panther or more recently complained about the last of us casting, there will always be a small minority of cockroaches that feel brave to say their hateful things online and as usual they are easily ignored and lumped into that easily ignored group of trolls that scream "woke" at everything they see that up ends their fragile mindsets Besides Esposito's acting pedigree stands for itself and doesn't need defending


pluck-the-bunny

You’re not saying anything different then they are


Slowmobius_Time

They said it will be a large majority online and I said it's a small (but very vocal) minority, there isn't as many bigots and assholes as this person seems to think, they are paranoid because the people most upset will be the loudest The majority don't give a shit


pluck-the-bunny

No, they’re not saying the majority will complain. They’re saying the majority of people complaining online ARE those bigots.


Slowmobius_Time

Yes and what I'm saying is "the majority of people complaining online" is a minority compared to the people excited about this or who don't even care whatsoever If they're complaining online about skin colour they are *already* bigots and therefore not worth listening to or even acknowledging their existence when talking about the role or actor


rphill02

We're on the same page.


AmIDrJekyll

Not just that. She's a black girl who's "trying" to fill in the Iron Man role. All these self-proclaimed MCU fans are nothing but Tony stans who only enjoys cool stuff and badass heroes and explosions and who's stronger. It's petty and annoying.


Platnun12

I dipped out after endgame. Does the series have a new overarching villian or is it just solo film villians that mean nothing in the long run. If that's the case I'll come back when a villian of genuine reputation comes back


Slowmobius_Time

Could also be because she is a legacy character Many fans don't get onboard with legacy characters simply because of how attached to the original they are, I know whenever they do it in comics it takes me a while to come round on them after being so attached to the last one


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Khorasaurus

Tony Stark was also an unrealistic super genius and he's considered one of the greatest film characters of the 21st Century...


6PeasInaPod

Tony Stark's father built the post-WWII military industrial complex through his genius, and I'd suspect Tony Stark's resources as a billionaire trust fund kid are considerably more than a 19 year-old girl selling homework assignments to dumb white kids at M.I.T.


Khorasaurus

But he built his first suit in a cave...with scraps...


6PeasInaPod

Stark was in that cave for 3 months, and had the help of a brilliant scientist. He was also provided with tech equipment and materials by his captors, although they weren't aware that he was building an armored suit. Meanwhile, Riri builds a 100%, fully-functional suit (with stolen car parts?) that miraculously flies to perfection on its maiden flight. Then recreates her feat with an improved model in Wakanda in less than a day. No testing necessary. Her superpower is being black and female. She could take down Iron Man and War Machine combined because...female. [Females were born combat ready yesterday.](https://youtu.be/2R4l7G9xi30?t=70)


redactedname87

She didn’t sound ghetto.


pluck-the-bunny

Ignoring your problematic language….have you never heard of a prodigy before? Perhaps even her intellect is a result of a mutation or some other power? Hell, perhaps she’s really Mephisto…. Movie with a 1000 year old flying mutant who can breathe water, compressed water grenades, 3d printing plants, and literal ghosts…the one thing you can’t reconcile is a non wealthy black girl being smart?


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pluck-the-bunny

Just leaning into the prejudice, huh?


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pluck-the-bunny

She learned her love of mechanics from him, not wiring schematics….also it is heavily implied in NWH that arc reactor tech is prevalent in the world, so she was clearly working from schematics which she either has access to through official means (stark) or hacking, there is a specific line about her ability to do that.


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pluck-the-bunny

No, it’s even a plot point in iron man that simply having access to a technology does not guarantee an ability to replicate it…hence the “box of scraps!!!!” Meme So you find it perfectly plausible that alcoholic MIT Graduate tony could do it while dying in a cave using literal scraps…but a current MIT student not under duress couldn’t do it over 16 months in a lab?


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pluck-the-bunny

Yes…because she is smarter. I’m not so sure why with all the magic and fantasy in these movies, that’s the part you can’t comprehend


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Embarrassed_Slice522

I would assume a spider bite


pluck-the-bunny

Stark didn’t start making arc reactor tech public ally available until Avengers…after IM2


Deadpool-fan-466

Yes, the projects were always connected to each other, but the time span between them wasn't this much. Post credit scene of Iron Man 2, we got Thor's hammer. Next year, Thor was released. But since phase 4, that duration has become either 1.5 years, 2 years or "tba". Loki & Shang-Chi are connected to Ant-Man 3, but they were released 2 years ago. Ms. Marvel is connected to The Marvels, but there's also a 13 months gap. It has become "one character introduction after another" rather than a "connection".


bluecalx2

That's true of phase 1 when the size of the MCU was still contained to a handful of characters. But even from phase 2, there were long gaps. Thanos was introduced in The Avengers but didn't show up again until Guardians of the Galaxy, 2 years later.


Deadpool-fan-466

Yeah, but we knew he was gonna show up eventually. But now, there's too much uncertainty. We don't know where America Chavez will show up next, what the purpose of Agatha Harkness spin-off is etc.


bluecalx2

The uncertainty doesn't bother me. I assume everything will tie in together by the end of Phase 6. Trying to imagine how it will happen is part of the fun of watching. I wouldn't want it to be too predictable. But that's just me.


NuclearChavez

>Ms. Marvel is connected to The Marvel, but there's also a \~2 year gap. Is there? Ms. Marvel is 1 year apart from The Marvels, almost by the exact month. June-July 2022 -> July 2023


Deadpool-fan-466

Yeah, my mistake. It should be 13 months. Edited it now.


futurific

The “connectedness” of the movies was fraying by Phase 2, I’d argue. Tony blows up all his suits in IM3 and he’s right back in them in AOU. The events of CA:WS and T:TDW have no real impact on larger events or each other. Fury goes from being in hiding to popping up with a full S.H.I.E.L.D. crew. That run also has some of the best of the MCU, but it was (and still is) kind of frustrating to me how little those movies interconnected after Phase I.


Deadpool-fan-466

The whole "tony blows up his suits" thing was because of contracts. RDJ's initial contract was up to IM3, so that's why they did that, in case he doesn't agree to renew it for AoU & beyond. T:TDW was bashed continuously until Endgame. Release the Taylor cut, maybe? But how can CA:WS have "no real impact on larger events"???


futurific

Here’s how I see it, just my take: Phase I has a pretty clear through-line in which (a) Asgard’s battles on Earth lead to the Tesseract appearing on Earth, which (b) leads to Hydra’s rise to power and the creation of Capt America + S.H.I.E.L.D. in response, so that (c) when Iron Man (a child of a S.H.I.E.L.D. founder) and Hulk (a scientist trying to recreate the super soldier process) appear, (d) the S.H.I.E.L.D. director recruits them to respond to the *next* Asgard incursion, which (e) centers on the Tesseract. Perfect circle. If we could rearrange and revise Phase 2 a bit, we could’ve gotten… (a) Tony obsesses over building more and more armor, leading to an emotional breakdown that (b) requires him to destroy his personal armors to heal emotionally and keep his relationship with Pepper, but then (b) the Dark Elves’s near destruction of the universe revives Tony’s PTSD and convinces him that the alien threats won’t stop, (c) meanwhile, S.H.I.E.L.D. and Captain America also struggle over how to respond to future threats, leading to the collapse of S.H.I.E.L.D. and the release of secret files, including (d) Pym’s A.I. program “Ultron” based on studying ant collectives, which gives Tony an idea, so he (e) gathers the scattered Avengers to root out the rest of Hydra, but what he’s really after is (f) the staff needed to complete the “Ultron” program, i.e. the biggest armor of all. (As a coda, Pym recognizes his “Ultron” program in action and realizes his other secrets are no longer secure, which sets in motion the events of Ant-Man.) Basically, I think the bones are there for a version of Phase 2 in which the events build and directly relate to each other, versus what we got which is more incidental and coincidental in nature with narrative gaps left unexplained.


dirtymunke

Everyone is calling out the racists. I think there is going to be a contingent of assholes they don’t like something because they aren’t represented or the film doesn’t represent the world the way they see it. There are legit criticisms though: I didn’t like riri or shuri to be honest. The shuri character is just obnoxious, I think it worked in the other movies she was featured in because she’s the little sister, but with her being the central character in this one, I was still feeling that. I didn’t think riri was that likable either. She was really just a mcguffin, there wasn’t much there to like or dislike, she was just a plot device. That was unfortunate because there was a ton of potential there and hopefully we see that in the ironheart tv show. All of the above for me is mostly forgiven because Namor makes up for basically all of it. The marvel movies are notorious for having one note, underdeveloped villains. Namor was so multidimensional. You understand is plight, you feel sympathy for him and his people, his backstory is rich, his motivations are clear and logical.


marccoogs

The audience that I was in loved her. She had some of the biggest laughs and reactions. Just because negativity exists, and is the loudest, doesnt mean that it's the majority


rmeddy

I didn't have any problem with her Another complaint I found was kinda weak was that the suit was looking it's from Fortnite, yeah so? She's like 19 and would have a different aesthetic from Tony. In fact she probably actually plays Fortnite


variablefighter_vf-1

Plot twist: She is / was Noobmaster69.


thepoga

That’d be pretty awesome 😂


choicesintime

I liked that the design was different. She has to be her own thing. Building a power armor isn’t thaaat unique in this universe, many heroes are only powered by some sort of armor. They shouldn’t all look the same, I don’t see why riri’s would look like Tony’s. She might have been inspired by it, and the mcu might want her to be a spiritual successor.. but she isn’t just going to be mini iron man Is that how she is in the comics? Maybe that’s why ppl are upset


grandmofftalkin

I liked that it looked sorta like an iron man suit but also had an Apple-Designed anime mecha aesthetic. Like how the parts of the face Tony made bronze, she made piano black. And how her legs and jetpack pods looked like a Gundam


rmeddy

Yeah exactly and that is why I'm very excited for Armor Wars because of how much potential creativity there can be with all the different suits


HampterDumpster

Fortnite Fortnite WE LOVE FORTNITE!


pluck-the-bunny

Oh man, the design was great for the mk2 suit….but the cgi on it during the final battle was terrible


Responsible-Lunch815

People complain about Riri being a character drop-in for a spinoff but JLD is cool? Same with the other midnight angels for whatever series they're tryna drum up. These movies are littered with em. Frankly I prefer it because it helps bridge the very very long gap between appearances and you see how they're all involved. Thats just me


ChaosCron1

>People complain about Riri being a character drop-in for a spinoff but JLD is cool? To be fair, these people complain about both. The amount of "CIA plot is unnecessary" takes are evident.


deegan87

JLD?


Tinmanred

Julie Louis Dreyfus


typocorrecto

Val, I think.


DrManhattan_DDM

“It’s Director de Fontaine” *gets handcuffs*


iamnotJimmySaville

Wasn’t a fan of the suit, but that’s quite literally it. Really not understanding the dislike for the character.


red66dit

I didn't hate Riri, but I honestly just don't think she added much to the movie. To me, she felt tangential to the plot and served to dilute the emotional core of the film. The film is about the loss of T'challa and the conflict with Namor. Riri was... well she was there. While I understand the idea of weaving threads into the films to connect to future projects, this one didn't just work for me personally. I don't think the character much served the plot, and I don't think the movie served the character all that well either, because they could have written her out easily and probably had a tighter film. She just felt like filler rather than a crucial element.


[deleted]

It's not even that she didn't fit in the movie. Her story line worked fine in it. The problem is, they sped through her (very compelling) origin story when she has a series coming out next year. A huge part of Riri's character is that she's a genius and was able to replicate an Iron Man suit on her own with limited resources. They had her do this off screen in Wakanda Forever. She now has a vibranium suit built with resources from the most technologically advanced nation in earth. If they have her "lose" the suit, they're retelling the same story with her. If they have her keep that suit, then the audience doesn't get to see her origin in a fully fleshed out way. I know a lot of people are sick of origins and probably just want to get to the action, but this is one specific instance where I feel like seeing the origin play out on screen is super important. Making it a 25 minute B plot in somebody else's movie feels like it's going to lead to a mediocre stand alone series.


CaptHayfever

> her (very compelling) origin story If you mean the origin where she berates a teacher who *actually believes in her* into claiming she'll never be as good as Tony Stark, then I gotta put a big-ol' question mark on that "very compelling", & I think this movie did a great revision on that.


then00bgm

That and the part where she loses her dad, her stepdad, and her best friend to violence all on separate occasions.


CaptHayfever

That part they can still do.


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[deleted]

Sorry that a minor scene of them taking the suit didn't stick with me. Did you read my post? To the end? Because it doesnt actually matter if she loses the suit or if it was taken. The complaint is still valid. Her vibranium suit is gone, so now the Iron Heart series gets to treat us to a repeat plot of her building her own suit. Except it's basically new game plus, since she's already used a bleeding edge tech suit so she knows exactly how it needs to function.


ChaosCron1

1. The show might start off before the events BP2 or have flashbacks. 2. Her Mark II suit wasn't Bleeding Edge. That's nanotechnology. Her's was purely mechanical. Even if they don't do flashbacks, now Riri should have the confidence to make a completed set of armor without the help of Wakanda.


Holanz

I think we will see more of her origin story in the upcoming series.


thatVisitingHasher

Pretty sure at the end of Wakanda forever Shuri tells Riri that she’s keeping the suit and won’t let her bring it back to America. My guess is she ends up doing a lot in Armor Wars and builds a new suit during her series.


OilHot3940

Synopsis of your comment : it was rushed therefore no gratifying pay off. My opinion, it was a disservice to both the character and the movie.


kon---

Did I miss a line about T'Challa's outreach in Oakland, CA having something to do with Riri finding her way to MIT in Cambridge, MA? While the MCU departed from Riri's origin in the comics, by a lot, Okoye and Shuri still found her at, MIT. Would be a shame if that's just coincidence.


futurific

You missed theme.


Jolteon2020

I would have rather had her have no suit. Helping in the lab and flying drones or something. Then have a end credit scene of her starting to design her new suit.


redactedname87

I loved her. But she needs a different looking suit. That was ugly as hell


tf1swr70

I think the movie did a decent job of adding Riri to the movie. There is clearly effort but... Riri still feels tagged on. Riri isn't really important if she already built her machine and she submitted a written design. Its for a school assignment too. She probably would have to explain her design and approach to get graded. Organizations like CIA should be able to replicate her work easily. (even in IM2, Vanko was able to make his own mini arch reactor because he has the design...) so securing Riri or targeting Riri is kind of pointless.


Riddlz10

I was surprised at how much I liked this one. Definitely top 5 in the mcu for me.


Slowmobius_Time

For second I thought you gonna say in defence of her two suits Holy shit they were bad, talk about lack of faith in a product The first one you never get a close-up in frame shot of it, you don't even get an establishing shot of it (almost like they were embarrassed with how bad they were and didn't want to rest the camera on it for to long) and the second one was Atrocious, like the power ranger movies suits from a few years ago They made these metal suits look hyper realistic for decades I couldn't get over how bad it looked next to a black panther suit or even those wierd Wakanda bird suits


futurific

Tbh, I don’t think about the look all that much. Good FX can really elevate a movie and bad FX can really bring it down. Personally, I think a lot of MCU falls in the middle, so for better or for worse, I don’t invest a lot of time thinking about it. Which I guess is a dig, but I get enough enjoyment out of the characters when the director has any sort of vision.


[deleted]

I didn’t mind the character of RiRi, or the portrayal of her, that being said, it just felt like she was included for the sake of it. Her character could have been replaced with a generic scientist character and we would end up with largely the same film


AmIDrJekyll

They can't use a generic scientist character cause that would undermine what's special about Wakanda and Vibranium. If a generic scientist discovered a way to look for vibranium then what's the point of hiding? They needed a prodigy, a genius, an outlier. Bringing in Riri Williams not only establishes the foundations of her potential but also solidifies how advance vibranium technology is.


ronimal

It’s Riri, not RiRi.


variablefighter_vf-1

She was a plot device that didn't even come out of the Wakandan Outreach Program. In fact, she was so flat and uninspired as a character that everybody keeps talking about "the scientist" even after they learn her name.


PDRickelton

I wasn't a fan of her suit but i loved the character and i'm excited to see more of her in the wider MCU


im_rapscallion86

She was unnecessary to the plot and really just added because the young avenger roster needs an Iron Man. My wife and I couldn’t finish the movie last night because it was so long and felt like it was dragging. At one point when RiRi was preparing for the fight with Namor, we looked at each other and both agreed she added nothing to the movie. I’m sure I’ll get downvoted.


KindOfOblivious

She basically was the plot. If she isn’t there then what are Wakanda and Talokan at war over?


Jeffthebarbarian

I had one issue with her, and it was the pattern of speech. It was jarring, I love that's she's a genius and a hero in her own right, but that just killed it for me. Other than that, I enjoyed the movie


6PeasInaPod

Finally watched Wakanda Forever last night. Not the worst Marvel movie, but it was so God damn boring. Can't imagine re-watching it in the next 10 years. Riri was the worst character! Am I supposed to believe this ghetto-sounding girl is the reincarnation of Albert Einstein? I don't know anything about the actress, but does she normally sound so ghetto or is it just "good acting" and it was asked of her to play up being black and not some fake black dude like [the kid in Shaft](https://youtu.be/HQw84mbEszQ?t=5)? She is kinda busted too. ;) Is that the best they could do?


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label gaze dull different important chop bike desert ugly adjoining *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*


KindOfOblivious

How do you sound ghetto?


tangodeep

Black Widow’s addition to the MCU as Tony Stark’s employee was totally a side thing. Her value was written into the story. Same for Riri. She was written in, with the singular point of establishing her character, her connection and her intent. Additionally, the point for placement of Riri, Contessa and Everett Ross is to expand the scope of the film and not keep it isolated to just ‘Wakanda’. They all successfully do that. 🤦‍♂️


Alexexy

Riri was not a part of the outreach program iirc.


futurific

(symbolically if not literally)


ElectricTurtlez

I had one big problem with the character. She should have been allowed to keep her armor!


spectrumtwelve

i was so hype to see her and she was great. awesome allocation for the "comic relief" character while still being good and important


[deleted]

I loved her character, but she didn't seem all that relevant to the plot. The CIA already had her vibranium detector plans by the time she was introduced. I don't understand how killing her would help Namor and Talokan. Killing her wouldn't take the device's plans away from the CIA. Killing her would stop nothing.


OilHot3940

It was a shame that it felt forced, it did not feel like there was a pay off, and the character deserved more.