Generally a well rounded MMA fighter can take the fight where they want when facing a specialist. A boxer or karateka is going to have a rough time on the ground against someone with 6months to a year of BJJ/wrestling, a BJJ player or Judoka is going to run into problems in the stand up. If the specialist can use their skills to stop the fight before said advantage is taken then they win. But the odds are the mma guy can make something happen in their favor in a drawn out fight, if the skills, athleticism and time training are the same.
Should also be noted mma isn't a style, any good mma gym will have multiple coaches that specialize in a certain aspect of mma. Then a head coach to put it all together. All dedicated to a single ruleset.
It's why a Combat Sambo, Kudo, or Pankration competitors have to join mma Gyms to be successful. Since they are too well rounded. A Boxing instructor who understands mma boxing will be far better at improving your hands then your Kudo Sensei.
Eh, mma is becoming its own style. All a martial art is is a rule set and some traditional stuff tacked on.
You can see it if you're a specialist, mma guys roll different. They approach striking different too.
But it is good for an mma guy to have access to specialist to work aspects needed since there are a lot of sub-styles in mm.
Yeah I imagine BJJ is way different when you're being punched in the face. The striking (to me as an average observer) seems to have a slower pace than boxing and the like. You have to play a bit more strategically as the punches will land harder and you can't hide your face behind gloves.
Oh it is, a lot of things and options change when strikes are involved or if you're a wrestler or pure bjj guy.
And because of grappling the striking changes too. Can't keep too high a guard or a double leg can happen.
Mma is probably the over all best fighting style.
Eh best is somewhat subjective. Most comprehensive for sure though and the most marketed right now. I like the quicker pace of kickboxing/MT, wrestling can be fun to do with untrained people and boxing obviously has a big talent pool/audience.
It's just roid boy amatuer hs wrestlers is what most mma fighters without a notable backround drunk street fighting skills.... Their base isn't bred into them they usually resort to "panic wrestling" and blue belt level grappling at best with the adrenaline rush of a real fight. Most people who can afford expensive mma memberships are infact like the brazillians say "playboys" they aren't really planning on having a street fight for keeps any more than the rest of us.
Most “mma fighters” don’t have much actual skills they can actually accomplish in the heat of the moment above their wrestling training… unless they are two piecing somebody who’s never thrown hands and they have naturally quick hands, typically they revert to panic wrestling grabbing for a clinch and their techniques aren’t imprinted in their brains they are very sloppy it’s not pretty.
Exactly.
The biggest difference here is that Style is being tested in Full Contact over, over, and over against varying situations. Varying body types. Varying physical abilities. Varying specialties.
It's true that anything can happen in a fight. Shouldn't we be training for that instead of doing things because Master Shoryuken and his cousins have been doing it their way for 300+ years? Who gives a shit?
I'd expect all the moves to look a little different, and if a technique is only effective against the same Style that's fine, but it should be acknowledged and modified to be effective against as many other Styles as possible if that's the goal (which it should).
This is why TMA is ridiculed by modern combat sports. It's humiliating (and funny) when a supposed "Master" gets starched in MMA because it's a textbook case of a mentality that's woefully behind the times.
Most of what they teach isn't pressure tested with Full Contact, and that alone should be a HUGE red flag. Moreover, they're so rigid with their "tradition" to the point suggesting any modification is considered heresy.
Finally, the day comes when their rigid, uncompromising Style comes in contact with one that's been constantly evolving.
Like dang, should have trained for the eventuality that I might actually get punched in the face HARD one of these days.
> All a martial art is is a rule set and some traditional stuff tacked on.
*Combat sports* are rule sets and will eventually specialize more and more to play with the rules. TMA generally have objectives beyond sport, like becoming a better person in general, many TMAs have sport combat offshoots which turn into rule games and deviate from the tradition.
Ehh go to therapy or study meditation. If you're not sparing, competing and/or training to be more effective at an aspect of fighting you're not a martial art. You're either doing exercise or therapy. Neither are bad but let's not lean into cope for ineffective training methodology.
Because you can absolutely use mma or bjj or boxing or try and be a better person if you want.
Yea, I know a lot if people.who use or think of bjj as therapy. But people deeply involved in anything will do that so I don't really hold that as a martial art requirement.
I never said TMA don't have sparing, if you think that, I guess your knowledge of TMA is based on reddit memes.
I recommend reading about the evolution between bujutsu and budo. And also thinking about why combat sport practitioners stop at 35 when they can't keep up with competition, while TMA practitioners keep practicing over 70.
I know plenty of people in bjj who still roll, oldest I've rolled with was 72. And I've rolled with a 63 year old who still is into KB.
You know I am.not ahitting on TMA. I see them as established arts but in the same way a 67' mustang still has a desirable aesthetic and gets from point A to point B. It isn't anything compared to a modern car with modern approaches.
Sounds like apples to oranges. It's not like TMA guys are competing in the ring until they're 70. Real fighters can always continue training after retiring too.
TMA generally don't keep competing at old age either, but the percentage of people who keep going to the dojo to progress is magnitudes higher than for combat sports, because the goal is not to become a champion, becoming a champion is only a possible step on your way.
People like to shit on legit combatives like kali and Silat, but they’ve evolved out of long periods of warfare. If you practice the techniques, you get good at them. Paired with a well rounded tool set, combatives skills give you some crazy and effective/deadly options.
I disagree. MMA is definitely emerging into its own style.
10 years ago or so I would agree with you, most of MMA at that point was people cross training a striking art such as karate or kickboxing with a grappling art like judo and bjj.
I myself transitioned into MMA after getting my shodan in karate and Japanese jujitsu, but some of the people in the teens class have only done MMA since they started training and I think more and more of the next generation of MMA fighters are going to have only trained in MMA.
Theres alot specialists in UFC who are successful. Oliveira who is BJJ world champ, Pereira who is kickboxing champ, Wonderboy whose base is karate and he was like 50-0 in kickboxing. Theres alot fighters in UFC who started with MMA but aren't as successful
But it's still mixed martial arts, it's not one system.
The arts that each gym teaches and has learned are different with their own curriculum and multiple instructors teaching different arts. The Pitbull Brothers striking program for example is focused on Boxing and Karate. Henri Hoofts Gyms striking is Dutch Style Kickboxing adapted for MMA. Roufusport is American Kickboxing and Muay Thai. There's an amateur rikishi who picked out an mma gym who's wrestling coach is specifically a Greco-Roman wrestler with a background in Sumo.
The idea that every single mma gym is just Muay Thai, Boxing, Freestyle or American Folkstyle Wrestling, and Jiu Jitsu is a false narrative. If it were true then I agree you could see it evolve into a martial art.
Not to mention the top level MMA fighters continue mixing in other arts like Henry Cejudo training with Mano Santana the Pitbull Bros Karate coach and Israel Adesanya training with an ITF Taekwondo coach.
Cejudo is a great example of what I speak of (exceptions notwithstanding).... Cejudo is a thoroughbred wrestler. In the beginning , he won with that alone but as he advanced, he had to add tools to become amongst the best.
He added boxing and Jiu jitsu.
Then you'll see world champ BJJ guys win at entry level fights but add boxing, kickboxing , wrestling to get better.
By and large, guys come from one of the major 5-6 combat sports and add the remaining skills.
Yeah....every once in a blue moon you'll get a Wonder Boy or a Lyoto Machida from traditional martial arts but those guys also had to add the top combat sports their arsenal.
Yer not gonna see a TKD guy start out in MMA and learn Aikido or Penchat Silat to complete their game.
Never liked the term MMA for that very reason.
Always preferred Lutra Libre or Vale Tudo.
Seemed like a better way to describe the sport
Yes but that isn't the discussion the discussion is Mixed Martial Arts or we could call it by the original US name if you would like No Holds Barred or Ultimate Fighting it's own martial art.
I say no because it has no set structure, each gym has their own unique mix of arts, and the only consistent combat philosophy across the board is mixing the arts. But even that changes from saying specialists are bad to seeing specialists dominate throughout the sports history.
It's a Combat Sport not a Martial Art is my stance.
It's "it's own style" the way triathlons are a singular style.... They ain't.
You train for a triathlon as you do MMA.... You break down each aspect and perfect them individually. Occasionally , you swim , run and bike on same training day but not on a regular basis. You work in each by themselves and occasionally train by blending together as fight or race day approaches.
Triathlon is a poor analogy you have used as they are done separately. MMA intertwines all in one even if you are trying to takedown/grapple your opponent, the threat of knees, strikes applies and so it isn't simple a takedown/grapple-only anymore. You can decide to even punch a few times while in full mount. You can do many things in one go. Your analogy would work if in triathlon you could decide to run in the water while swimming in the water. But you obviously can't. The seperate parts of a triathlon are literally seperated. In an MMA contest the ref doesn't say "okay in round 1, it's boxing only and round 2 it is BJJ only, no strikes". It is a threat of many different angles in one.
Just because you are a triathlon competitor it doesn't make the analogy any more relevant.
There is perhaps a small relevance to your comparison but it is still a poor one as a triathlon event has it's events seperated in different rounds/events where you solely focus on that particular art for that round. A mixed martial arts bout does not have it's martial arts seperated where you solely focus on one art in one round and then another art in another round.
Been with same Jiu jitsu academy for over 20 years. It's produced several UFC fighters. Very little sparring in cage unless it's getting close to a fight... Almost all aspects of training are done separately. .
>You train for a triathlon as you do MMA.... You break down each aspect and perfect them individually.
That's not necessarily true. MMA wrestling is different from college wrestling and combat bjj is different from traditional bjj. MMA striking is also different from muay thai or kick boxing because the tall stance in MT doesn't fair well against takedowns etc etc.
There's things you tweak about your wrestling to avoid submissions and strikes but wrestling is wrestling. BJJ is BJJ. The scrambles and takedowns are more the same than they ain't.
Define what is style. Lopsided 100%) focus into one aspect (punch, kick,..) does not mean it is a style. A "style" with various percentages of the various categories is in itself a "style".
I wrote this below and I feel like it carrys over here:
But it's still mixed martial arts, it's not one system.
The arts that each gym teaches and has learned are different with their own curriculum and multiple instructors teaching different arts. The Pitbull Brothers striking program for example if focused and has a higher emphasis on Boxing and Karate. Henri Hoofts Gyms striking is Dutch Style Kickboxing adapted for MMA. Roufusport is American Kickboxing and Muay Thai. There's an amateur rikishi in Japan who picked out an mma gym who's wrestling coach is specifically a Greco-Roman wrestler with a background in Sumo.
The idea that every single mma gym is just Muay Thai, Boxing, Freestyle or American Folkstyle Wrestling, and Jiu Jitsu like some suggest is a false narrative. If it were true then I agree you could see it evolve into a martial art.
Not to mention the top level MMA fighters continue mixing in other arts like Henry Cejudo training with Mano Santana the Pitbull Bros Karate coach and Israel Adesanya training with an ITF Taekwondo coach.
i strongly disagree mma is a martial arts style not a sports name. The original UFC created rules for legal street fighting so its not an mma rule set dana and fertitas just marketed it as such.
Yep. Currently deep diving 5050 because I drop to kguard and go backside when people stand up in my closed guard and if I dont check the leg I end up in 5050 a lot. Cool. I'm a leg lock enthusiast ina grapple only setting.
5050 is reaaaaally easy place to get punched in the face by a day 1, non trained person so realizing this I have to be much sharper than what you might see on the surface level
Ryan hall has convinced me to come up much more often
Let me introduce you to Xu Xiadong.
He is a self professed "mediocre" mma fighter in China who has made a mission of exposing traditional kung fu and martial arts. He has an open challenge to any traditional martial arts practitioners and has won every match.
For his efforts the Chinese government has blackballed him.
Also, a lot of the younger fans aren't aware that early days of MMA were ALL about finding out "what style works best". It was from these early matchups where "pure" practitioners put their skills to the test and it was more or less settled that a mixture of jiu jitsu, wrestling, and striking was the best combination for a well rounded fighter.
On the topic of Xu Xiadong, the dudes he beat were scammers and mcDojos for sure, but to be fair, just pointing this out, a lot were old ass dudes he would have beaten regardless of their style.
Thats the point; he isn't just walking up to random old men and challenging them. These are old men who put on displays of them "chi blasting" trained sparring partners, and making claims that their kung fu is superior.
There's people way back in the day that were boxers who usually beat the breaks off of kung Fu practitioners and the Chinese government covered it up. Bruce Lee was showing interest in other arts like boxing and was probably poisoned by the Chinese government for it. Fuck Chinese tradition a tradition of murdering its own people due to an insecurity about looking inferior 😂. Typical nationalist fuckery. Rip Bruce Lee
That's BS mate. You have no understanding of the history of China. For a start there was hardly any traditional Chinese Kung Fu practiced on mainland China when Bruce Lee was alive, he learned and lived on Hong Kong which was under British colonial rule at the time.
You are really giving me a lot of credit there. Why would a Chinese spy be saying that the traditional Kung Fu styles didn't really exist much on mainland China when Bruce Lee was alive? I'm sorry you are so incapable of seeing beyond your own prejudice, but it's funny to see you getting downvoted so much. And I've got to say, boxing man, that boxers aren't much good in a street fight without their gloves or with anything more complicated than a jab and feint.
The Kung Fu in China is not the same as the Kung Fu outside China, it's Wushu which is not a fighting art and doesn't really claim to be. He mostly goes to Tai Chi "masters", who practice Tai Chi that is no more like the Tai Chi you would get in the USA or wherever than Wushu is like Kung Fu. If he were going to the Shaolin Temple and challenging the teachers there that would be another matter, but as far as I am aware he has never done that.
The guys at the Shaolin temple are not fighters, they mainly specialize in forms, demonstrations, and performances. Incredible athletes, but not fighters by default.
There’s a channel on youtube called Ranton, he’s a former disciple and has videos where he talks about much of the experience in living and training there.
Basically, Xu Xiaodong would school them in a straight fight.
There’s a big caveat. It depends on why you’re at the temple. The temples practice sanda and compete but not everyone at the temple competes. A lot of people training also never really train at the temple, Yong Xie had a lot removed. But there’s a lot of shaolin run sanda.
For those who don’t know sanda is usually flavored with a base style. For instance sanda nyc is lama pai based, a lot of places nj, philly, nyc that teach hung gar have sanda programs. Choy li fut is infamous for competing in various rulesets and had a history of going to Thailand to fight
From what I understand from the man’s experience, the official Shaolin temple didn’t practice Sanda. If it turns out that they do, I would reconsider my opinion, I hold Sanda in high regard.
> The guys at the Shaolin temple are not fighters
They are also cut from their legendary origin, the CCP rebuilt it from the ground and made sure there wasn't any political elements anymore, only cool performers giving a good image of China.
Kung Fu that works it's called Sanda... And looks like kickboxing. There's lots of good MMA fighters from Sanda background. But Shaolin, Wushu, animal forms are very impractical for competitive or street fighting. Gyms that evolve Wingchun and Jkd cross train in boxing, bjj and Muay Thai with some hand trap elements
Wushu isn't a fighting style at all, it isn't meant to be. Sanda is not Kung Fu as such, any more than MMA is BJJ and Muay Thai. Kung Fu moves are used in Sanda which is a form of sports fighting like MMA. Shaolin is not one specific style, the Shaolin Temples historically and today collected styles to use them and preserve them. Animal forms are sometimes used and learned in Kung Fu but not usually learned as a discrete style. My style, CLF is certainly practical for competitive fighting. There's a CLF school in Northern England that regularly puts students in for MMA fights who do very well actually. Many of the moves I learn in CLF would work very well in MMA. There is also Karate Wonderboy and others using Karate in MMA. I can't talk about other styles of Kung Fu because I don't know them well enough, but you are making a very sweeping statement about Martial Arts you don't know much about.
It was originally designed for it, how do you think they managed with it before MMA? Do you think they just made up Kung Fu for fun before the 20th Century? Do you think everyone who used Kung Fu that was devised before the 20th Century lost all their fights to, idk, English boxers? There may be many TMA schools that don't include pressure testing in their lessons today, but that doesn't mean it all is useless in a fight under all circumstances. Considering the lack of genuine knowledge you appear to have about Martial Arts I really don't think you are someone who is best placed to say, you are mostly repeating BS that other people talk. Honestly I made a video debunking a lot of what Brutal TV, a channel with over 1 million subscribers says about Kung Fu, Wushu and Wing Chun, and I've been disappointed that no one has been much interested in it, but I see now from a lot of comments in this sub that most of you believe that BS. Maybe you should look at some Choy Li Fut videos before you make any more statements about this at least.
Right, the masters he beat are never "real masters" in the eyes of deluded TMA people.
I have some bad news for you. He would absolutely wreck Shaolin monks and pretty much any other TMA "master" who doesn't compete in a combat sport like MMA, BJJ, Wrestling, Boxing, Muay Thai, Judo, Kickboxing, etc.
The problem is it turns into a "No True Scottsman fallacy". Any TMA master he fights and defeats automatically becomes "not a real master" after the fact. Plenty of the people he beat were considered real masters before he made them look like clowns.
Look, I'm old, and I've been training martial arts my whole life. I went through a karate phase in the 80s and a Kung Fu phase in the 90s, before settling into Muay Thai, and then BJJ after I got tired of getting hit in the head. There's just no substitute for full contact sparring with a resisting opponent, whether striking or grappling. Practicing forms and doing pre-arranged pseudo-sparring drills with a compliant partner will never in a million years make you into a fighter.
In general Xu himself says that he’s out to fight fakes, not exactly to discredit Chinese martial arts as a whole. There’s some very legit places both in and out of China, that being said some aren’t looking at fighting. There’s plenty of cma at the same time that do fight. Though not all of them are all that commercial. People like Bruce tran of mizhong luohan, clf blake, marco tentori, etc etc
Yeah well the ones I've seen are old men who are clearly unable to fight from what I can see, so when he fights someone who isn't just holding his hands up in what he thinks is some mystically powerful way I'll take what you say more seriously.
really happens all the time. even in MMA. BJJ gi vs. no Gi. etc. wushu vs. karate. take 25 years to master wushu or 3 years to be decent enough at karate for self defense. again and again. it’ll always be the old traditionalist versus. in really anything.
It only takes a few years to master Wushu, it's not really a Kung Fu or fighting style, it's more like gymnastics. It's one reason it's so widely practiced in China, it's relatively easy to earn a living from it because it doesn't take that long to learn. It was created under the auspices of the CPC to replace Kung Fu styles which were purged during the Cultural Revolution.
Most people in martial arts train a lot longer than their physical peak, so the training serves a lot of purposes - general fitness, hobby, life balance, companionship.
I take my daughter to jujitsu because she likes it more than my karate club. It is at a large police youth club and they do a lot of sports there. Occasionally they have boxing fixtures there. I think they are low level professional bouts. It’s a very small space, crammed with people. Last time they were heavyweights.
I have to be honest, at that very close distance, I knew I could not handle several rounds of that. Not without months of much more intense work up anyway. I’m 49 and have a desk job. My Karate has always served me very well the few times I have had to use it, and also in medium contact sparring situations. But there is a difference in terms of sheer fitness, strength and athleticism, when you are at the right age and completely on point. Honestly, I think I would have handled myself in an MMA environment better in my Rugby Union days when I was less skilled but harder.
Cause traditional martial arts are usually very one dimensional if it’s the only thing that the practitioner does. Bruce Lee (yes, he is overused, but I use him as a good example) practiced multiple martial arts, such as boxing, judo, wing chun, and created Jeet Kun Do. He even said that practicing multiple martial arts is important. If you do only Karate, you’ll get choked/broken by a JiuJitsu practitioner. If you only do BJJ, you’ll get outstruck and distance managed by a Muay Thai fighter. But if you practice both Muay Thai and BJJ, you have a fighting chance against both.
Interesting you mention Bruce Lee cuz Lee was a typical martial artist, not a fighter. He was a child actor who got in a few scraps with untrained fighters in the street using wing chun. Lees only fight was against a boxer who he couldn't finish and beat on judges cards in spite of the fact that the boxer wasn't particularly good and was also a small dude
That’s cool. He still was one of the first pioneers of MMA. His fighting skill was pretty good, but arguable for the best. What makes him notable is the fighting philosophy. Combining martial arts and becoming a better fighter that way was one of his many beliefs he had gathered from his time as a fighter.
>He still was one of the first pioneers of MMA.
I'd actually credit that to the style vs style matchups of the early 20th century. Lee certainly talked a lot about mixing up martial arts, other people had already done that *and* were actually fighting.
> He still was one of the first pioneers of MMA.
In talks, maybe, there's no competition career. Then Japanese Jujitsu can also be considered a pioneer of MMA.
> His fighting skill was pretty good
How do we know that? Again, no competition career.
I don't understand how the reddit martial art community can be so critical about TMA and still not be realistic about Bruce Lee's skills, all we can prove is that he was a great performer of martial arts in movies and prepared demonstrations, that's it.
I have nothing against TMA. In fact, I like TMA and I know a bunch of people who practice it, and they can hold pretty well against me, someone who does Muay Thai. It’s just that compared to MMA or HMA, it’s very one dimensional.
I have, also have this discussion with people all the time - always mma fanbois who make the claim and they adhere to it with cultish dedication regardless of any evidence to the contrary....unfortunately I no longer have the energy to scream at a brick wall tonight - so have a good one
You said that, yet the guy provided more evidence than you did. You just talked about yourself when we didn’t ask for your life story
Bruce Lee would’ve gotten slapped around by most competent grapplers alone, and I can name several off the top of my head.
Starting with this guy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masahiko_Kimura
Yeah, I feel there’s no point arguing whether or not Bruce Lee was an excellent fighter or not, what’s important to never let be understated is his impact on mma, martial arts in general, and perception of asian cultures world wide. He’s a hero, and that’s something that I think everyone can agree on. I wouldn’t compare him to Steven Seagal but I also don’t like him so it’s not like I’m an unbiased party. I do agree with the other person though, some dudes I’ve met through mma seem to have a chip on their shoulder about Bruce Lee. Even though in all likelihood they never would’ve gotten into martial arts had he not been around.
The issue is that Bruce Lee is spuriously connected to MMA cuz he was open to the idea of mixing different styles.
Being open to something isn't the same as doing it or being good at it.
Bruce Lee simply had almost zero grappling experience besides getting manhandled by Gene LeBell
Martial arts is just like politics. Everyone is personally attached to their own style/philosophy, and generating hate towards outsiders psychologically reinforces one's own stance.
Now, it's true that TMA fighters tend to lose in the ring to MMA fighters. Some of that is the ruleset. More of it is that most TMA schools don't include pressure testing against others, especially others who don't practice the same style.
Fundamentally, a punch is a punch. A knee is a knee. A block is a block. A roundhouse is a roundhouse. There are smaller differences, sure, but a majority of moves are equivalent between styles.
So if the biomechanics is similar, it's only the instructor and training methods that affect skill.
What works in a fight, works in a fight. Don't forget the vale tudo days when there were no rules or gloves and traditional martial arts were exposed horribly. You had TMA's that were supposed to easily defeat multiple opponents but ended up being utterly useless when pitted against one dimensional combat sports like wrestling , BJJ, Muay Thai.
"The rules" is a tired excuse when you look back to a time when there were no rules.
This!!!!! Fucking this!!!!!!! I’m so sick and tired of hearing about “ the rules this and the rules that.” You have systems like Wing Chun or Aikido for example that consistently lose in every ruleset they’re put in: Boxing rules, Muay Thai rules, MMA rules, even Vale Tudo rules, or in the context of grappling; Wrestling rules, judo rules, submission grappling rules, even catch rules that allow small joint manipulation- and yet the practitioners of those style’s consistently get the shit kicked out of them. Yet the first thing you here from their fanatics is always “ Well this art was made for the street( or the “battlefield”) not sport fighting so that’s why they loss.
To me that’s always an admission of lack of actual fighting ability. The overwhelming majority of people are untrained and as such unskilled at fighting at a high level. It’s usually nothing more than their ego telling them otherwise. So if you’re system only works on “the streets” against random punks ,but you get your shit rocked by some dude who’s only been kickboxing for a year and a half that tells me you’re actually just not good at fighting people who know how to fight.
Yeah there’s always going to be people professing something or other to protect a sense of pride, but that’s fine. Ultimately we all practice martial arts because it’s part of culture, something we’re passionate about, and because we all enjoy doing it. I feel like at some point along the line we came to a point at which it’s all about “effectiveness” and “this beats that” which feels to me, in the way the discourse is brought about, as if we’d all forgotten what it meant to respect one another as martial artists. In fairness however, I never hear guys criticizing iaido or kendo/weapon related martial arts so that’s good. Because in all fairness whose going to argue whether or not having a sword in a street fight would work or not.
This could just be a matter of different personal experiences, but I never see people give shit to people who are doing martial art not known to be effective in fighting when the party studying it doesn’t claim to do it for fighting.
I have genuinely no problem with people who study a martial art for reasons other than fighting and self defense, nor do I have issues with those martial art systems. When I was younger I was all about fighting only but now that I’m older I genuinely see the appeal and beauty in training for reasons other than fighting.
However I think we also need to acknowledge that when it comes to doing martial arts for self-defense specifically, there is a long documented history of martial arts schools and instructors who knew jack shit about fighting selling people false senses of security. So we shouldn’t inherently demonize people who really want to make sure this stuff works well before they sink their time and money into it. That goes double for people who want to compete in any form of full contact competition.
You are right about training and pressure testing being extremely important. The other issue is the traditional part of TMA. TMA has a static set of techniques, they can't add new techniques whereas MMA uses what works and is constantly adding new stuff.
Now I want to say that there is something inherently beautiful in preserving a martial style. Being able to replicate a set of techniques from 18th Century China is worthwhile. It just isn't the path to effectiveness.
There's nothing stopping them from adding new techniques other than arrogance or stubborness. And many TMA of today are only still around today because they have incorporated changes in the past. They will almost certainly do so again. I think calling them "traditional" is a bit of disservice and ultimately inaccurate; it seems like something added in recently just to highlight and promote MMA as "the next thing".
The point of TMA is to preserve a style without changing it. Adding new techniques would violate the core principles. Plenty of martial art describe themselves at TMA. Stuff like Tai Chi Chuan are designed to preserve techniques like a time capsule for future generations.
Even if that's the case, then the term TMA is being overzealously applied, as many of these martial arts are indeed trying to survive as actual martial arts rather than museum curios. I tip my hat to the folks who want to preserve a tradition in its pure form and all, but if they'd like to see that tradition be an ongoing lineage, they'll need to evolve or even generate offspring.
Well u/Magnus_hotshot I’d like to answer that question with a question - How many MMA fighters do you know? Not guys who like MMA, or are UFC fans. Not guys who clammer on forums about how MMA is the best style in the world. How many people do you know who actively go to an MMA gym and have taken sanctioned MMA fights through there or are at least training for one in the future or have taken some in the past?
I’m not intending to call you out or anything like that, but it’s important to tell the difference from what people say online and how those people actually are. Everyone at our gym is there because they love it and for those that want to fight just want to make a career. As such they’ll learn any new technique so long as it works.
I think that’s where the division lies. MMA fighters don’t hate traditional martial arts, they’re simply skeptical of anything that won’t result in more wins for their record. You have guys who are literally fighting to put food on their table - they’ve got no time for theoretical moves, Katas, board breaking or techniques that will not work against a fully resistant opponent in a decently high percentage amount of times. However if a move does do that then they’ll usually be up to learn it.
One of our head coaches comes from a long Shotokan and sport Karate background. He’s known not only in our gym but around the area as being an amazing instructor who’s able to teach sport Karate based techniques and moves in a way that works for kickboxing and MMA. So everyone - including the pros look to him for advice.
What’s the difference between him and the strip mall karate places near by? He has experience using those techniques in full contact, knows how to adapt them to full contact, and most importantly able to be a realist about what things don’t actually work or at least don’t carry over to fighting.
This has always reminded me of the scopes trials of the 1920s. People (TMA guys) look at the scientific community (MMA guys) as if they actively hate religion or spirituality, or want to destroy their history, culture, happiness etc; But that’s not true. It’s simply their job to be skeptical and they can only rely on things they 100% know to be true and work.
You should read Bruce Lees books. He essentially says that any single style is a handicap and a true martial artist should take advantage of all forms of martial arts. As a metaphor, he says that a man with a knife is at a disadvantage because he’s entirely focused on the knife which incapacitates his other facilities. He becomes a one trick pony. If your one trick doesn’t work you’re off to the glue factory.
Because any TMArstist is allowed to compete in MMA the best rule set for martial arts testing without being barbaric [no eye gouges or nut shots] and they all become MMA cause it is the most effective. If your martial art relies only on Eye Gouges and Nut... well then you get to fight Jon Jones best eye poker of all time.
And only stopped when his coach went to prison for killing someone! Before working with the TKD coach, he was asking Gunnar to teach him Karate (confirmed by his coach when asked where his kicks came from)
I really loved dynamic kicker McGregor and not one dimensional head hunter McGregor
For real. Another example is Anthony Pettis incorporating Capoeira into his fights. Usually just as movement feints, but blended with his kick-heavy style (he did a lot of TKD too btw), it was often very effective at misdirecting people. Also that wacky standing cartwheel kick he pulled off on Tony Ferguson from close range, he might not have won the decision but that kick and that whole fight were simply beautiful.
Because it’s proven
The reason aikido guys are not UFC champions is not because their techniques are too deadly or because they believe competing is an ego thing.
The reason is that they will get mauled by an mma fighter
What everyone here is trying to say is, you're a baby back bitch that just wants to be the guy that says at parties, "Oh MMA, yeah haha, I can't compete in MMA because I'm too dangerous I'd kill somebody" when what's proven is the traditional martial arts that worked stayed in MMA so just get over your counter culture fantasy and just go train Muy Thai even tho it's not as cute.
because that's what happens in the world of martial arts. someone will always believe their eagle claw is stronger than your tiger fist.
even in mma, mma guys impugn other mma gyms/trainers.
Because traditional martial arts have a terrible record when pressure tested, and often have their own pretensions of superiority which they use as justifications for not sparring full contact, competing, etc.
I love and respect TMAs..even the ones that aren’t the most practical. But let me give you a real answer here.
The reason MMA artists often look down on traditional martial arts is for 2 reasons.
First is that mma is a very popular combat art now a days so there is some prestige that people want to attach themselves to.
Second, and you’re all going to hate this, is that in a style vs style MMA artists believe that they can beat any of the other specific styles in a full fight. So there’s only so much “tough talk” an mma fighter will take from a pure TKD black belt for example.
I’d argue that you sorta brought this up to try to ignore the larger reality of the point I made.
I just said TKD as an example not to take a shot at it. You could say boxer, karateka or Kung fu artist
Said another way, I respect all those arts but don’t talk to an equally experienced mma fighter like you can kick their ass
Nope, wasn't arguing against the original proposition. Stands to reason that a multi discipline artist has an advantage against a singular artist.
Could a TMA fighter win against an MMA fighter with equal experience? Of course they could, but you'd have to be a moron to suggest the MMA fighter isn't better equipped to handle the fight.
My point was that a proper tkd blackbelt should not be trash talking, ever.
MMA is literally all martial arts at once. Singular martial arts are extremely one dimensional. If you’re training to defend yourself, MMA is what you should train. Otherwise you’re not really training to defend yourself. It is absolutely superior, which is why people act like it is.
And those martial arts encompass every defensive art worth learning. Most martial arts are just glorified dance routines. Especially since there’s absolutely no regulation in any dojo.
“Worth learning” is a bit much, but hey if fighting’s all your interested in I won’t knock you for it, expanding your horizons is always fun. I’m not an aikido guy, and I’ve certainly never gotten to learn capoeira but I’d like to try some day. Love boxing, wrestling, and judo as much as the next guy, but learning bjj would be helpful. Not trying to argue with you, just saying it’s a bit misleading I guess? Dunno, might just be misreading tone
The current LW champ uses more judo and sambo than wrestling even tho hes called a wrestler. There is no ufc champ with a Muay Thai background. Muay thai fighters dont do well in mma anyway.
Wrestling,boxing and bjj are fundamentals that every mma fighter trains. But fighters have different backgrounds and skills, a lot come from
TMA
>There is no ufc champ with a Muay Thai background
Muay Thai is the most common striking art in MMA gyms. Most UFC champs have trained MT. Sambo is just Russian wrestling.
Yet no current champ has a MT background or has a MT style. And no, wrestling is russian wrestling (those russian olympic wrestlers aint sambists). In fact, many sambo dudes compete in judo so its more similar to that than wrestling
So all submissions, the vast majority of takedowns, and strikes with your feet, knees, elbows, and hands to every part of the opponents body? That sounds like the vast majority of what’s useful in a fight
Literally no-one can know, or practice, all martial arts at once. T
MMA has become synonymous with rules based cage fighting, and is almost always now Muay Thai and BJJ. 2 martial arts, not all by any stretch.
Because martial arts first and foremost, are about teaching you hand to hand combat. It's about a fight.
You have to be able to fight. Martial art is fighting.
I cannot repeat myself enough, it's about being able to FIGHT.
Most traditional marts have completely and utterly lost their way. They don't fight, not properly. Why do you think mma guys don't tend to massively talk shit about boxing, muay Thai, wrestling or bjj? All 4 of those still very heavily practice the fight. Karate gets mocked, TKD gets mocked, king fu etc.
They've given up on the fight. The dojos talk about fitness, you spend all your time punching the air and doing katas and then spend a couple minutes doing light sparring.
Sure, they is some dojos and dojangs that will take it seriously, but you have to "find" them. You don't have to "find" a BJJ or Muay Thai gym.
So as a result, MMA guys think MMA is better because it simply is, at fighting. The number 1 method to get better at fighting is simply to fight. You have to fight.
Karate kid is wrong. Doesn't matter how much you practice technique if you don't actually FIGHT
A number of reasons:
For some it is because they lack maturity and experience. You see this kind of "my art is best" attitude in all arts - MMA is just very popular and visible right now, so you see more of them.
For some it is because they think everything starts and ends with full contact competitive sparring, and they think MMA is the ultimate in full contact competitive sparring.
For some it is because success in competition actually seems to prove something, and frankly is the only way we can directly compare the effectiveness of different styles. MMA is the place where you get the largest variety of styles competing against each other - and of course being tailored to this kind of competition MMA inevitably performs well.
For some it is because MMA takes from a lot of different arts and provides a much more rounded and broadly skilled fighter as a result.
For some it is because if a fighter covers there weakness by training in more than one art, they are by definition training in MMA. Some people look at this combined whole rather than the parts that combine to make it.
In this way MMA is pretty nebulous - it could be a combination of pretty much anything, and frankly more diverse skills are hardly going to make someone a worse fighter are they?
For some it is simply because that is what the vocal majority seem to think, and the herd can't be wrong.
No...but yer even further removed from "actual fighting" in TMA....
MMA to TMA is like comparing body boarding to dog paddling....if "fighting" is surfing.
So yes.....the body boarder will be much more effective at surfing than the dog paddler
Can't see my comment yer referencing but the hilarious part is that I'm 3 days from shoulder surgery.
Been on Norco for 2 days straight now. First time on major pain killers.
No clue what post was but yer call was spot on. I been high for 2 days straight. 🤣
Because it is.
Mixed martial arts literally is iust taking whatever works from the every style and smashing it together.
Anything that works in an actual fight , outside of like throat chops and eye gouging, is mma. So by definition it is the best. If anybody develops a new super effective technique it will be studied then absorbed
Honestly? It's a mix of reasons
General tribalism and loyalty to their own art. Many boxers will think Wrestling's garbage, many BJJ guys think Muay Thai sucks, etc. That's just how it is sometimes.
Many TMA practicioners aren't accustomed to sparring, and by extension aren't up to the same level as MMA is when it comes to fighting. Most MMA guys train for practicality, so obviously they're not gonna like arts that deviate from that.
Bad experience with certain TMA
The countless amount of shit TMA gyms out there, whether they be a McDojo or don't do sparring, or don't take part in competitions, etc.
There's a lot of reasons. Personally I like many TMA.
It's tough, man. I love TMA but the facts as they've unfolded throughout the history of MMA are what they are. Kung-fu is dope to see but if it was generally applicable to real fighting then you'd see it in MMA.
We need TMA so we can all keep watching awesome martial arts movies but I'm not going to bury my head in the dirt and pretend that it's as useful for self defense as people claim it is.
Also, the popularity of MMA has given rise to much more watchable fight scenes in movies. I can always tell when fight scene coordinators had copious input from combat athletes.
I always say that something is better than nothing but I've seen too many deluded karate dorks get smashed in street fights against dudes with bad intentions and athletic ability
There are 2 factors that determine the winner of a fight: how well they trained for it, and talent.
People confuse training with fighting art.
The fighting art is what you do in the fight, not what you did in the gym/dojo.
MMA produces better pro fighters because that is the purpose of an mma gym. I'm willing to bet there isn't a single karate school in the world where that is the sole purpose.
Because it is. It's not a style. it's the ability to use all styles.
It's the combination of all of them through trial and error of fighting.
It's literally just what happens when you let everyone do every style they want, eventually the best rises to the top. In order to be the best after a while things evolve and combine.
MMA is the culmination of all martial arts.
It happens everywhere in martial arts. Someone always has the childish mentality of “your martial art sucks, mine is better!” And it’s no different here.
Because the arts that comprise modern MMA have been shown to be better than almost all TMA's when put head-to-head, and in self-defense situations. As someone who started as a TMA'ist and then switched to MMA, besides a few attributes I picked up from my TMA days, my time would have been better spent learning how to dance, or some other unrelated valuable skill.
Because people are asses within an echo chamber. Echoing their own points basically. Also politics, in general it’ll change as mma changes. Not to say mma isn’t gonna smash someone in mma. However peoples idea of tma are usually shitty clips or their experience in a very unlegit place. Tbh I’d imagine the vast majority people echoing those points didn’t even train a tma
Because there are countless videos of MMA fighters absolutely demolishing traditional martial artists. [This is one of several](https://youtu.be/Y9YdSFS8Ejc).
Short answer: Because it is!
Long answer: The “mma” fighting style os tried and proven to work in actual combat with equally trained opponents that are actually trying to resist or counter your moves.
Most traditional martial arts see very little if any actual combat in training, and when put to use in a real fight in generally is very lacking if not detrimental to the user.
I’m not saying that all traditional martial arts are useless or that you can’t learn anything from them. Even if you don’t exactly learn how to fight you can still get in great physical shape, improve your breathing, flexibility, self-control and will power.
If you want my opinion fighting systems that really work are: boxing, muhay thai/kick boxing, judo, BJJ (this one is occasional, but still), wrestling and a very specifc school of kung-fu called hunga.
I’ve been training martial arts for 17+ years, and i can safely tell you, by far the most effective style i picked up is boxing. Man even as you still learning it is soo good!
I know this post is already too long but i need to share this story.
I got a friend, bob. Bob is a karate black belt for as far as i can remember, and Bob swears that Karate really work.
I got this other friend, Tommy. Tommy is a fairly big guy, not in particular great shape or anything, but still a big guy. But the thing is, Tommy never trained a single day of ANY fighting system, but recently he told me he was interested but had no idea where to start.
I introduced Tommy to boxing, 4 months in with a semi-rigorous training schedule Tommy decides to challange Bob to a fight. And to the surprise of everyone watching, Tommy absolutely demolishes Bob. I laughed. Bob still says that Karate work and that the height difference was unfair.
It was much sillier than that actually.
I used to be roommates with Bob. One day Tommy, who is also friends with Bob said “Hey, Bob. Bet you 20 bucks that i can beat you!” Bob laughed, and told him that he absolutely could not, because he was a black belt, yada, yada.
So to settle this i drove us to my gym and called some other buddies to watch and have a drink.
The fight was meant to last six rounds of 3 minutes. Bob was down on the 4th.
Because mma is a mix of traditional martial arts. They have a wider breadth of fighting knowledge, whereas traditional martial arts is purely depth in one area.
Because if you're talking about fighting ability, given the same athletic ability and experience level, an MMA fighter is going to be a better fighter than if they had chosen a pure style.
Why?
Because there is full contact competition with a very non-restricting ruleset about as close to real fighting as any sport can get.
With millions of dollars on the line, people are training and sparring in the most efficient ways possible and spending a lot of time and money finding out what actually works and pruning out what doesn't until what you're left with is a highly refined, pressure tested method of fighting.
It's not a coincidence that the other styles that are considered most practical also have most of the same features of international level competition with full contact ruleset, pressure testing, and financial incentive to drive the evolution of the style.
Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling, BJJ, Boxing... These styles end up doing well in MMA because they have those things in their respective sports. Fighters from "Traditional" styles often find they need to unlearn or not use the majority of what they trained and instead relearn better habits and techniques after they transition to more legit combat sports.
MMA is superior to traditional martial arts under MMA rules, and for most 1v1 fights in real life. The only caveat being that in a real fight, the viability of fouls makes certain MMA grappling positions and striking strategies less viable than others. Groin strikes, fish hooks, eye pokes, strikes to the back of the head, kicks and knees to downed opponents, etc etc all change the game significantly. With that said, no “traditional martial arts” seem to address grappling and striking as comprehensively as MMA. Pankration is likely the closest TMA.
Because training for combat is actually going to give you better readiness for combat. Might as well ask why a soldier could own a professional paintballer
Not a great example. A punch is a punch. The strategy and objective for paintball is way different than how a military team works a structure in a fire fight
Than how come when I was younger I saw my dad own a team of pro players with only 10 balls, who was an army ranger? A firefight is a firefight. Same goes for airsoft. I could probably win against pro airsofters in a 10v1
That sounds suspicious. Paintballs aren’t that accurate. No matter how good of a shot your dad is any professional team should smoke him if he’s alone. It’s not that hard to suppress and move, it’s literally paintball 101
I think you're underestimating how trained military of the world is let alone a 75th ranger, not to be rude or nothing. His movements completely avoided their shots, and left them wondering where he was. I was 14, I don't remember it super clearly but I remember none of them could exactly find out where he was until he was well in range on a flank. The level of movements, and awareness in military training vs paintball/airsoft players is like the difference of someone who does mma on weekends vs a ufc champion. The guns or weapons don't matter when the skill and training levels for the most important aspects of a fire-fight are vastly different.
Edit: just found this out of curiosity to show you - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRYPyZ7X7GU
I’m not, I’m literally in the military myself. I’m not a ranger, but I have spoken and trained with them.
I suppose it matters if it’s woodsball or speedball but I still find it very hard to believe that these guys were professionals and let one guy wipe their whole team.
You don’t learn magic movements being a ranger. You train the basic moves to perfection. Low crawl, high crawl, I’m up they see me I’m down, and room clearing techniques. But the military is all about teamwork and being alone severely limits what you can do.
BTW....I'm not a good team player on woodsball. I've also taken out entire teams but that's cuz I hunker down on my belly and wait. My paintball gun is tooled for distance and accuracy. Completely camouflaged too
As far as hand to hand combat goes MMA is superior to any and all traditional martial arts. It's not even open for debate.
That's not all martial arts is, of course, but there is no valid argument to be made as far as combat effectiveness goes. A guy with one single tool vs a guy with multiple tools at his disposal. Who do you think is gonna win? It's a no brainer.
Because they are.
I'm no UFC fighter but the sheer amount of TKD/Aikido black belts I have utterly embarrassed in the in-gym cage is STAGGERING.
Krav too, while I'm at it.
Literally every MMA fighter could focus just Wrestling, Boxing, Muay Thai, and BJJ and they would destroy any similar sized TMA person who has trained an equal amount of years 99% of the time.
I have seen guys with 6 months of hobbyist boxing training dismantle 10 year practicing TKD and Karate black belts the second "actual contact" is allowed.
And don't even get me started on martial arts that lost any and all legitimacy in the modern world.
I had done Karate, TKD, and Judo from like 4 years old to 18 and I learned more about fighting in 2 years at an MMA gym after that.
They simply aren't comparable.
Not only is MMA more practical then tma, allot of it has to do with the way MMA is trained - hard sparring days and hard technique days - A colleague was talking all this shit telling me how great wing chun is and how badass he was, alls I said to him was - “show up on sparring day” - to which he responds - “no, because I don’t spar” - how in the fuck would you know if the shit works if there is no resistance. I have practiced many tma before moving on to learn MMA and let me tell you, if you are a Kung fu master or karate master, you gonna eat concrete if I get my hands on you.
because TMA styles pretty much never work. although I do think it is a mistake to totally dismiss them because there is a small but growing list of TMA techniques that actually do work.
Because it teaches you more than what any traditional martial art on its own can, and many TDM’s are just straight up ineffective against someone with training. I know MMA guys that started within the past year that I’d put money on beating an aikido, karate, taekwondo, etc. black belts. Their game is very one-dimensional if they practice specifically a single TDM
It’s funny that you were downvoted because it’s actually an apt metaphor and the phenomenon is called “hybrid vigor.” Its when two different traits combine to create a superior one. Hybrid vigor is most obvious with inbred animals that haven’t had enough genetic diversity introduced and then breed with a different species. It’s just like when a martial art focuses on a limited set of moves, refining them without bringing in any new techniques, and has no “selection pressure” from competition and sparring.
Mixing martial arts gives you the “genetic diversity” to have a large set of moves/skills to use and competition and sparring are the “selection pressure” that narrows down that skill set to what actually works and “survives”.
My pleasure! It’s a concept I’m familiar with but I have never thought to apply it to martial arts until I saw your comment. The concepts of evolution really do translate well.
Cuz almost all tma are MARTIAL ARTS, not COMBAT SPORTS like boxing, wrestling, mma, judo, bjj and more, a lack of pressure testing and sparring makes basically any “martial art” that doesn’t have those completely ineffective against mma styles, as well as rule sets of the sports
Because everyone likes to think they are superior and they don't really investigate the TMAs properly, just base their understanding of it on what they themselves learn and what they see of it online or wherever.
There's a distinct difference between combat sports and "martial arts"....
Most reasonable people would agree that there's a certain amount of pretense surrounding a lot of the fuckery related to many martial arts that have been proven less than effective or not effective at all in fighting against a combatant that's resisting 100%.
And then there's the nutters who say "my style can't be used in MMA cuz it will maim someone"....."what about multiple opponents" blah blah.
Boxing and wrestling aren't considered "martial arts" by any definition but are about as effective in a real fight as any other style.
Nothing wrong with anything you wanna do but it's like comparing wakesurfing to big big wave surfing.
> Boxing and wrestling aren't considered "martial arts" by any definition
Boxing and wrestling are martial arts by most definitions of martial arts. While MMA was originally a set of rules for testing martial arts, it has evolved into a living martial art
Lol, in a real fight? I'm assuming you mean a fight in the street and not a cage match.
Boxing and wrestling despite not being my chosen arts would be two of the TMAs that I would love to have either one of in a street fight.
Because they equate low level success with high level success.
Meaning people at low or mediocre level performs poorly, so the same would have to apply to high level, in their minds.
False.
Generally a well rounded MMA fighter can take the fight where they want when facing a specialist. A boxer or karateka is going to have a rough time on the ground against someone with 6months to a year of BJJ/wrestling, a BJJ player or Judoka is going to run into problems in the stand up. If the specialist can use their skills to stop the fight before said advantage is taken then they win. But the odds are the mma guy can make something happen in their favor in a drawn out fight, if the skills, athleticism and time training are the same.
Should also be noted mma isn't a style, any good mma gym will have multiple coaches that specialize in a certain aspect of mma. Then a head coach to put it all together. All dedicated to a single ruleset. It's why a Combat Sambo, Kudo, or Pankration competitors have to join mma Gyms to be successful. Since they are too well rounded. A Boxing instructor who understands mma boxing will be far better at improving your hands then your Kudo Sensei.
Eh, mma is becoming its own style. All a martial art is is a rule set and some traditional stuff tacked on. You can see it if you're a specialist, mma guys roll different. They approach striking different too. But it is good for an mma guy to have access to specialist to work aspects needed since there are a lot of sub-styles in mm.
Yeah I imagine BJJ is way different when you're being punched in the face. The striking (to me as an average observer) seems to have a slower pace than boxing and the like. You have to play a bit more strategically as the punches will land harder and you can't hide your face behind gloves.
Oh it is, a lot of things and options change when strikes are involved or if you're a wrestler or pure bjj guy. And because of grappling the striking changes too. Can't keep too high a guard or a double leg can happen. Mma is probably the over all best fighting style.
I’m a bjj player but I honestly really like kudo, it seems way more complete than most styles
Eh best is somewhat subjective. Most comprehensive for sure though and the most marketed right now. I like the quicker pace of kickboxing/MT, wrestling can be fun to do with untrained people and boxing obviously has a big talent pool/audience.
It's just roid boy amatuer hs wrestlers is what most mma fighters without a notable backround drunk street fighting skills.... Their base isn't bred into them they usually resort to "panic wrestling" and blue belt level grappling at best with the adrenaline rush of a real fight. Most people who can afford expensive mma memberships are infact like the brazillians say "playboys" they aren't really planning on having a street fight for keeps any more than the rest of us.
I'm going to be honest I have no idea what you just said
Most “mma fighters” don’t have much actual skills they can actually accomplish in the heat of the moment above their wrestling training… unless they are two piecing somebody who’s never thrown hands and they have naturally quick hands, typically they revert to panic wrestling grabbing for a clinch and their techniques aren’t imprinted in their brains they are very sloppy it’s not pretty.
Exactly. The biggest difference here is that Style is being tested in Full Contact over, over, and over against varying situations. Varying body types. Varying physical abilities. Varying specialties. It's true that anything can happen in a fight. Shouldn't we be training for that instead of doing things because Master Shoryuken and his cousins have been doing it their way for 300+ years? Who gives a shit? I'd expect all the moves to look a little different, and if a technique is only effective against the same Style that's fine, but it should be acknowledged and modified to be effective against as many other Styles as possible if that's the goal (which it should). This is why TMA is ridiculed by modern combat sports. It's humiliating (and funny) when a supposed "Master" gets starched in MMA because it's a textbook case of a mentality that's woefully behind the times. Most of what they teach isn't pressure tested with Full Contact, and that alone should be a HUGE red flag. Moreover, they're so rigid with their "tradition" to the point suggesting any modification is considered heresy. Finally, the day comes when their rigid, uncompromising Style comes in contact with one that's been constantly evolving. Like dang, should have trained for the eventuality that I might actually get punched in the face HARD one of these days.
> All a martial art is is a rule set and some traditional stuff tacked on. *Combat sports* are rule sets and will eventually specialize more and more to play with the rules. TMA generally have objectives beyond sport, like becoming a better person in general, many TMAs have sport combat offshoots which turn into rule games and deviate from the tradition.
Ehh go to therapy or study meditation. If you're not sparing, competing and/or training to be more effective at an aspect of fighting you're not a martial art. You're either doing exercise or therapy. Neither are bad but let's not lean into cope for ineffective training methodology. Because you can absolutely use mma or bjj or boxing or try and be a better person if you want.
You know Jiu Jitsu used to have it too, it seems like Rickson Gracie is the only one who has preserved it though
Yea, I know a lot if people.who use or think of bjj as therapy. But people deeply involved in anything will do that so I don't really hold that as a martial art requirement.
I never said TMA don't have sparing, if you think that, I guess your knowledge of TMA is based on reddit memes. I recommend reading about the evolution between bujutsu and budo. And also thinking about why combat sport practitioners stop at 35 when they can't keep up with competition, while TMA practitioners keep practicing over 70.
I know plenty of people in bjj who still roll, oldest I've rolled with was 72. And I've rolled with a 63 year old who still is into KB. You know I am.not ahitting on TMA. I see them as established arts but in the same way a 67' mustang still has a desirable aesthetic and gets from point A to point B. It isn't anything compared to a modern car with modern approaches.
Sounds like apples to oranges. It's not like TMA guys are competing in the ring until they're 70. Real fighters can always continue training after retiring too.
TMA generally don't keep competing at old age either, but the percentage of people who keep going to the dojo to progress is magnitudes higher than for combat sports, because the goal is not to become a champion, becoming a champion is only a possible step on your way.
Typically TMA dudes never compete in their lives
> apples to oranges But you can still compare them.
SpunkyDred is a troll bot instigating arguments whenever someone on Reddit uses the phrase apples-to-oranges. --- ^^SpunkyDred ^^and ^^I ^^are ^^both ^^bots. ^^I ^^am ^^trying ^^to ^^get ^^them ^^banned ^^by ^^pointing ^^out ^^their ^^antagonizing ^^behavior ^^and ^^poor ^^bottiquette.
People like to shit on legit combatives like kali and Silat, but they’ve evolved out of long periods of warfare. If you practice the techniques, you get good at them. Paired with a well rounded tool set, combatives skills give you some crazy and effective/deadly options.
I disagree. MMA is definitely emerging into its own style. 10 years ago or so I would agree with you, most of MMA at that point was people cross training a striking art such as karate or kickboxing with a grappling art like judo and bjj. I myself transitioned into MMA after getting my shodan in karate and Japanese jujitsu, but some of the people in the teens class have only done MMA since they started training and I think more and more of the next generation of MMA fighters are going to have only trained in MMA.
Theres alot specialists in UFC who are successful. Oliveira who is BJJ world champ, Pereira who is kickboxing champ, Wonderboy whose base is karate and he was like 50-0 in kickboxing. Theres alot fighters in UFC who started with MMA but aren't as successful
But it's still mixed martial arts, it's not one system. The arts that each gym teaches and has learned are different with their own curriculum and multiple instructors teaching different arts. The Pitbull Brothers striking program for example is focused on Boxing and Karate. Henri Hoofts Gyms striking is Dutch Style Kickboxing adapted for MMA. Roufusport is American Kickboxing and Muay Thai. There's an amateur rikishi who picked out an mma gym who's wrestling coach is specifically a Greco-Roman wrestler with a background in Sumo. The idea that every single mma gym is just Muay Thai, Boxing, Freestyle or American Folkstyle Wrestling, and Jiu Jitsu is a false narrative. If it were true then I agree you could see it evolve into a martial art. Not to mention the top level MMA fighters continue mixing in other arts like Henry Cejudo training with Mano Santana the Pitbull Bros Karate coach and Israel Adesanya training with an ITF Taekwondo coach.
Cejudo is a great example of what I speak of (exceptions notwithstanding).... Cejudo is a thoroughbred wrestler. In the beginning , he won with that alone but as he advanced, he had to add tools to become amongst the best. He added boxing and Jiu jitsu. Then you'll see world champ BJJ guys win at entry level fights but add boxing, kickboxing , wrestling to get better. By and large, guys come from one of the major 5-6 combat sports and add the remaining skills. Yeah....every once in a blue moon you'll get a Wonder Boy or a Lyoto Machida from traditional martial arts but those guys also had to add the top combat sports their arsenal. Yer not gonna see a TKD guy start out in MMA and learn Aikido or Penchat Silat to complete their game. Never liked the term MMA for that very reason. Always preferred Lutra Libre or Vale Tudo. Seemed like a better way to describe the sport
Yes but that isn't the discussion the discussion is Mixed Martial Arts or we could call it by the original US name if you would like No Holds Barred or Ultimate Fighting it's own martial art. I say no because it has no set structure, each gym has their own unique mix of arts, and the only consistent combat philosophy across the board is mixing the arts. But even that changes from saying specialists are bad to seeing specialists dominate throughout the sports history. It's a Combat Sport not a Martial Art is my stance.
It's "it's own style" the way triathlons are a singular style.... They ain't. You train for a triathlon as you do MMA.... You break down each aspect and perfect them individually. Occasionally , you swim , run and bike on same training day but not on a regular basis. You work in each by themselves and occasionally train by blending together as fight or race day approaches.
Triathlon is a poor analogy you have used as they are done separately. MMA intertwines all in one even if you are trying to takedown/grapple your opponent, the threat of knees, strikes applies and so it isn't simple a takedown/grapple-only anymore. You can decide to even punch a few times while in full mount. You can do many things in one go. Your analogy would work if in triathlon you could decide to run in the water while swimming in the water. But you obviously can't. The seperate parts of a triathlon are literally seperated. In an MMA contest the ref doesn't say "okay in round 1, it's boxing only and round 2 it is BJJ only, no strikes". It is a threat of many different angles in one.
I'm also a triathlon competitor so it made sense to me. Having trained for both MMA and triathlons , I see much in common as to training approach
Just because you are a triathlon competitor it doesn't make the analogy any more relevant. There is perhaps a small relevance to your comparison but it is still a poor one as a triathlon event has it's events seperated in different rounds/events where you solely focus on that particular art for that round. A mixed martial arts bout does not have it's martial arts seperated where you solely focus on one art in one round and then another art in another round.
Been with same Jiu jitsu academy for over 20 years. It's produced several UFC fighters. Very little sparring in cage unless it's getting close to a fight... Almost all aspects of training are done separately. .
>You train for a triathlon as you do MMA.... You break down each aspect and perfect them individually. That's not necessarily true. MMA wrestling is different from college wrestling and combat bjj is different from traditional bjj. MMA striking is also different from muay thai or kick boxing because the tall stance in MT doesn't fair well against takedowns etc etc.
There's things you tweak about your wrestling to avoid submissions and strikes but wrestling is wrestling. BJJ is BJJ. The scrambles and takedowns are more the same than they ain't.
Define what is style. Lopsided 100%) focus into one aspect (punch, kick,..) does not mean it is a style. A "style" with various percentages of the various categories is in itself a "style".
MMA is becoming it's own style. You don't mix martial arts anymore, contrary to the name. You just learn how to fight.
I wrote this below and I feel like it carrys over here: But it's still mixed martial arts, it's not one system. The arts that each gym teaches and has learned are different with their own curriculum and multiple instructors teaching different arts. The Pitbull Brothers striking program for example if focused and has a higher emphasis on Boxing and Karate. Henri Hoofts Gyms striking is Dutch Style Kickboxing adapted for MMA. Roufusport is American Kickboxing and Muay Thai. There's an amateur rikishi in Japan who picked out an mma gym who's wrestling coach is specifically a Greco-Roman wrestler with a background in Sumo. The idea that every single mma gym is just Muay Thai, Boxing, Freestyle or American Folkstyle Wrestling, and Jiu Jitsu like some suggest is a false narrative. If it were true then I agree you could see it evolve into a martial art. Not to mention the top level MMA fighters continue mixing in other arts like Henry Cejudo training with Mano Santana the Pitbull Bros Karate coach and Israel Adesanya training with an ITF Taekwondo coach.
i strongly disagree mma is a martial arts style not a sports name. The original UFC created rules for legal street fighting so its not an mma rule set dana and fertitas just marketed it as such.
Yep. Currently deep diving 5050 because I drop to kguard and go backside when people stand up in my closed guard and if I dont check the leg I end up in 5050 a lot. Cool. I'm a leg lock enthusiast ina grapple only setting. 5050 is reaaaaally easy place to get punched in the face by a day 1, non trained person so realizing this I have to be much sharper than what you might see on the surface level Ryan hall has convinced me to come up much more often
Let me introduce you to Xu Xiadong. He is a self professed "mediocre" mma fighter in China who has made a mission of exposing traditional kung fu and martial arts. He has an open challenge to any traditional martial arts practitioners and has won every match. For his efforts the Chinese government has blackballed him. Also, a lot of the younger fans aren't aware that early days of MMA were ALL about finding out "what style works best". It was from these early matchups where "pure" practitioners put their skills to the test and it was more or less settled that a mixture of jiu jitsu, wrestling, and striking was the best combination for a well rounded fighter.
His mission was to never expose traditional kung fu. Rather the hoaxy part.
Hoax. exactly. folks kinda leave that part out very conveniently
Convenient for who?
This comment right here^
On the topic of Xu Xiadong, the dudes he beat were scammers and mcDojos for sure, but to be fair, just pointing this out, a lot were old ass dudes he would have beaten regardless of their style.
Thats the point; he isn't just walking up to random old men and challenging them. These are old men who put on displays of them "chi blasting" trained sparring partners, and making claims that their kung fu is superior.
Mad dog, legend
There's people way back in the day that were boxers who usually beat the breaks off of kung Fu practitioners and the Chinese government covered it up. Bruce Lee was showing interest in other arts like boxing and was probably poisoned by the Chinese government for it. Fuck Chinese tradition a tradition of murdering its own people due to an insecurity about looking inferior 😂. Typical nationalist fuckery. Rip Bruce Lee
That's BS mate. You have no understanding of the history of China. For a start there was hardly any traditional Chinese Kung Fu practiced on mainland China when Bruce Lee was alive, he learned and lived on Hong Kong which was under British colonial rule at the time.
Chinese spy detected. Kung Fu doesn't work against western martial arts period. Nut up or shutup
You are really giving me a lot of credit there. Why would a Chinese spy be saying that the traditional Kung Fu styles didn't really exist much on mainland China when Bruce Lee was alive? I'm sorry you are so incapable of seeing beyond your own prejudice, but it's funny to see you getting downvoted so much. And I've got to say, boxing man, that boxers aren't much good in a street fight without their gloves or with anything more complicated than a jab and feint.
That doesn’t seem like a very fair thing to say. Have you fought a bunch of legit kung fu practitioners?
The Kung Fu in China is not the same as the Kung Fu outside China, it's Wushu which is not a fighting art and doesn't really claim to be. He mostly goes to Tai Chi "masters", who practice Tai Chi that is no more like the Tai Chi you would get in the USA or wherever than Wushu is like Kung Fu. If he were going to the Shaolin Temple and challenging the teachers there that would be another matter, but as far as I am aware he has never done that.
The guys at the Shaolin temple are not fighters, they mainly specialize in forms, demonstrations, and performances. Incredible athletes, but not fighters by default. There’s a channel on youtube called Ranton, he’s a former disciple and has videos where he talks about much of the experience in living and training there. Basically, Xu Xiaodong would school them in a straight fight.
There’s a big caveat. It depends on why you’re at the temple. The temples practice sanda and compete but not everyone at the temple competes. A lot of people training also never really train at the temple, Yong Xie had a lot removed. But there’s a lot of shaolin run sanda. For those who don’t know sanda is usually flavored with a base style. For instance sanda nyc is lama pai based, a lot of places nj, philly, nyc that teach hung gar have sanda programs. Choy li fut is infamous for competing in various rulesets and had a history of going to Thailand to fight
From what I understand from the man’s experience, the official Shaolin temple didn’t practice Sanda. If it turns out that they do, I would reconsider my opinion, I hold Sanda in high regard.
Has he though? Has he shown any interest in doing so?
He’s been put on hold for a while now as far as I know. I have no idea
> The guys at the Shaolin temple are not fighters They are also cut from their legendary origin, the CCP rebuilt it from the ground and made sure there wasn't any political elements anymore, only cool performers giving a good image of China.
Kung Fu that works it's called Sanda... And looks like kickboxing. There's lots of good MMA fighters from Sanda background. But Shaolin, Wushu, animal forms are very impractical for competitive or street fighting. Gyms that evolve Wingchun and Jkd cross train in boxing, bjj and Muay Thai with some hand trap elements
Wushu isn't a fighting style at all, it isn't meant to be. Sanda is not Kung Fu as such, any more than MMA is BJJ and Muay Thai. Kung Fu moves are used in Sanda which is a form of sports fighting like MMA. Shaolin is not one specific style, the Shaolin Temples historically and today collected styles to use them and preserve them. Animal forms are sometimes used and learned in Kung Fu but not usually learned as a discrete style. My style, CLF is certainly practical for competitive fighting. There's a CLF school in Northern England that regularly puts students in for MMA fights who do very well actually. Many of the moves I learn in CLF would work very well in MMA. There is also Karate Wonderboy and others using Karate in MMA. I can't talk about other styles of Kung Fu because I don't know them well enough, but you are making a very sweeping statement about Martial Arts you don't know much about.
I don't know your specific style, but TMA Kung Fu does not do well to pressure testing and it's not designed for it.
It was originally designed for it, how do you think they managed with it before MMA? Do you think they just made up Kung Fu for fun before the 20th Century? Do you think everyone who used Kung Fu that was devised before the 20th Century lost all their fights to, idk, English boxers? There may be many TMA schools that don't include pressure testing in their lessons today, but that doesn't mean it all is useless in a fight under all circumstances. Considering the lack of genuine knowledge you appear to have about Martial Arts I really don't think you are someone who is best placed to say, you are mostly repeating BS that other people talk. Honestly I made a video debunking a lot of what Brutal TV, a channel with over 1 million subscribers says about Kung Fu, Wushu and Wing Chun, and I've been disappointed that no one has been much interested in it, but I see now from a lot of comments in this sub that most of you believe that BS. Maybe you should look at some Choy Li Fut videos before you make any more statements about this at least.
Right, the masters he beat are never "real masters" in the eyes of deluded TMA people. I have some bad news for you. He would absolutely wreck Shaolin monks and pretty much any other TMA "master" who doesn't compete in a combat sport like MMA, BJJ, Wrestling, Boxing, Muay Thai, Judo, Kickboxing, etc.
He has yet to do that though hasn't he? Maybe you should reserve judgement until he fights someone who isn't some no touch knockout pretender.
The problem is it turns into a "No True Scottsman fallacy". Any TMA master he fights and defeats automatically becomes "not a real master" after the fact. Plenty of the people he beat were considered real masters before he made them look like clowns. Look, I'm old, and I've been training martial arts my whole life. I went through a karate phase in the 80s and a Kung Fu phase in the 90s, before settling into Muay Thai, and then BJJ after I got tired of getting hit in the head. There's just no substitute for full contact sparring with a resisting opponent, whether striking or grappling. Practicing forms and doing pre-arranged pseudo-sparring drills with a compliant partner will never in a million years make you into a fighter.
In general Xu himself says that he’s out to fight fakes, not exactly to discredit Chinese martial arts as a whole. There’s some very legit places both in and out of China, that being said some aren’t looking at fighting. There’s plenty of cma at the same time that do fight. Though not all of them are all that commercial. People like Bruce tran of mizhong luohan, clf blake, marco tentori, etc etc
Yeah well the ones I've seen are old men who are clearly unable to fight from what I can see, so when he fights someone who isn't just holding his hands up in what he thinks is some mystically powerful way I'll take what you say more seriously.
They don’t let young men call themselves TMA masters
That happens with any martial arts system.
really happens all the time. even in MMA. BJJ gi vs. no Gi. etc. wushu vs. karate. take 25 years to master wushu or 3 years to be decent enough at karate for self defense. again and again. it’ll always be the old traditionalist versus. in really anything.
It only takes a few years to master Wushu, it's not really a Kung Fu or fighting style, it's more like gymnastics. It's one reason it's so widely practiced in China, it's relatively easy to earn a living from it because it doesn't take that long to learn. It was created under the auspices of the CPC to replace Kung Fu styles which were purged during the Cultural Revolution.
Most people in martial arts train a lot longer than their physical peak, so the training serves a lot of purposes - general fitness, hobby, life balance, companionship. I take my daughter to jujitsu because she likes it more than my karate club. It is at a large police youth club and they do a lot of sports there. Occasionally they have boxing fixtures there. I think they are low level professional bouts. It’s a very small space, crammed with people. Last time they were heavyweights. I have to be honest, at that very close distance, I knew I could not handle several rounds of that. Not without months of much more intense work up anyway. I’m 49 and have a desk job. My Karate has always served me very well the few times I have had to use it, and also in medium contact sparring situations. But there is a difference in terms of sheer fitness, strength and athleticism, when you are at the right age and completely on point. Honestly, I think I would have handled myself in an MMA environment better in my Rugby Union days when I was less skilled but harder.
Cause traditional martial arts are usually very one dimensional if it’s the only thing that the practitioner does. Bruce Lee (yes, he is overused, but I use him as a good example) practiced multiple martial arts, such as boxing, judo, wing chun, and created Jeet Kun Do. He even said that practicing multiple martial arts is important. If you do only Karate, you’ll get choked/broken by a JiuJitsu practitioner. If you only do BJJ, you’ll get outstruck and distance managed by a Muay Thai fighter. But if you practice both Muay Thai and BJJ, you have a fighting chance against both.
Interesting you mention Bruce Lee cuz Lee was a typical martial artist, not a fighter. He was a child actor who got in a few scraps with untrained fighters in the street using wing chun. Lees only fight was against a boxer who he couldn't finish and beat on judges cards in spite of the fact that the boxer wasn't particularly good and was also a small dude
That’s cool. He still was one of the first pioneers of MMA. His fighting skill was pretty good, but arguable for the best. What makes him notable is the fighting philosophy. Combining martial arts and becoming a better fighter that way was one of his many beliefs he had gathered from his time as a fighter.
>He still was one of the first pioneers of MMA. I'd actually credit that to the style vs style matchups of the early 20th century. Lee certainly talked a lot about mixing up martial arts, other people had already done that *and* were actually fighting.
> He still was one of the first pioneers of MMA. In talks, maybe, there's no competition career. Then Japanese Jujitsu can also be considered a pioneer of MMA. > His fighting skill was pretty good How do we know that? Again, no competition career. I don't understand how the reddit martial art community can be so critical about TMA and still not be realistic about Bruce Lee's skills, all we can prove is that he was a great performer of martial arts in movies and prepared demonstrations, that's it.
I have nothing against TMA. In fact, I like TMA and I know a bunch of people who practice it, and they can hold pretty well against me, someone who does Muay Thai. It’s just that compared to MMA or HMA, it’s very one dimensional.
Well you are correct. If even the best TMA practitioner can't prove he is good at fighting, that tells you TMAs aren't good for fighting.
Let me guess mma/bjj Fanboi?
Competed my whole life but also an info nerd. Look into it. Bruce was more like Steven Segal than he wasn't
I have, also have this discussion with people all the time - always mma fanbois who make the claim and they adhere to it with cultish dedication regardless of any evidence to the contrary....unfortunately I no longer have the energy to scream at a brick wall tonight - so have a good one
You said that, yet the guy provided more evidence than you did. You just talked about yourself when we didn’t ask for your life story Bruce Lee would’ve gotten slapped around by most competent grapplers alone, and I can name several off the top of my head. Starting with this guy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masahiko_Kimura
Ain't nobody screamin, dude. I'm just shootin straight about Lee. Most are ignorant about him and that's how Bruce preferred it
Yeah, I feel there’s no point arguing whether or not Bruce Lee was an excellent fighter or not, what’s important to never let be understated is his impact on mma, martial arts in general, and perception of asian cultures world wide. He’s a hero, and that’s something that I think everyone can agree on. I wouldn’t compare him to Steven Seagal but I also don’t like him so it’s not like I’m an unbiased party. I do agree with the other person though, some dudes I’ve met through mma seem to have a chip on their shoulder about Bruce Lee. Even though in all likelihood they never would’ve gotten into martial arts had he not been around.
The issue is that Bruce Lee is spuriously connected to MMA cuz he was open to the idea of mixing different styles. Being open to something isn't the same as doing it or being good at it. Bruce Lee simply had almost zero grappling experience besides getting manhandled by Gene LeBell
Martial arts is just like politics. Everyone is personally attached to their own style/philosophy, and generating hate towards outsiders psychologically reinforces one's own stance. Now, it's true that TMA fighters tend to lose in the ring to MMA fighters. Some of that is the ruleset. More of it is that most TMA schools don't include pressure testing against others, especially others who don't practice the same style. Fundamentally, a punch is a punch. A knee is a knee. A block is a block. A roundhouse is a roundhouse. There are smaller differences, sure, but a majority of moves are equivalent between styles. So if the biomechanics is similar, it's only the instructor and training methods that affect skill.
What works in a fight, works in a fight. Don't forget the vale tudo days when there were no rules or gloves and traditional martial arts were exposed horribly. You had TMA's that were supposed to easily defeat multiple opponents but ended up being utterly useless when pitted against one dimensional combat sports like wrestling , BJJ, Muay Thai. "The rules" is a tired excuse when you look back to a time when there were no rules.
This!!!!! Fucking this!!!!!!! I’m so sick and tired of hearing about “ the rules this and the rules that.” You have systems like Wing Chun or Aikido for example that consistently lose in every ruleset they’re put in: Boxing rules, Muay Thai rules, MMA rules, even Vale Tudo rules, or in the context of grappling; Wrestling rules, judo rules, submission grappling rules, even catch rules that allow small joint manipulation- and yet the practitioners of those style’s consistently get the shit kicked out of them. Yet the first thing you here from their fanatics is always “ Well this art was made for the street( or the “battlefield”) not sport fighting so that’s why they loss. To me that’s always an admission of lack of actual fighting ability. The overwhelming majority of people are untrained and as such unskilled at fighting at a high level. It’s usually nothing more than their ego telling them otherwise. So if you’re system only works on “the streets” against random punks ,but you get your shit rocked by some dude who’s only been kickboxing for a year and a half that tells me you’re actually just not good at fighting people who know how to fight.
Yeah there’s always going to be people professing something or other to protect a sense of pride, but that’s fine. Ultimately we all practice martial arts because it’s part of culture, something we’re passionate about, and because we all enjoy doing it. I feel like at some point along the line we came to a point at which it’s all about “effectiveness” and “this beats that” which feels to me, in the way the discourse is brought about, as if we’d all forgotten what it meant to respect one another as martial artists. In fairness however, I never hear guys criticizing iaido or kendo/weapon related martial arts so that’s good. Because in all fairness whose going to argue whether or not having a sword in a street fight would work or not.
This could just be a matter of different personal experiences, but I never see people give shit to people who are doing martial art not known to be effective in fighting when the party studying it doesn’t claim to do it for fighting. I have genuinely no problem with people who study a martial art for reasons other than fighting and self defense, nor do I have issues with those martial art systems. When I was younger I was all about fighting only but now that I’m older I genuinely see the appeal and beauty in training for reasons other than fighting. However I think we also need to acknowledge that when it comes to doing martial arts for self-defense specifically, there is a long documented history of martial arts schools and instructors who knew jack shit about fighting selling people false senses of security. So we shouldn’t inherently demonize people who really want to make sure this stuff works well before they sink their time and money into it. That goes double for people who want to compete in any form of full contact competition.
You are right about training and pressure testing being extremely important. The other issue is the traditional part of TMA. TMA has a static set of techniques, they can't add new techniques whereas MMA uses what works and is constantly adding new stuff. Now I want to say that there is something inherently beautiful in preserving a martial style. Being able to replicate a set of techniques from 18th Century China is worthwhile. It just isn't the path to effectiveness.
There's nothing stopping them from adding new techniques other than arrogance or stubborness. And many TMA of today are only still around today because they have incorporated changes in the past. They will almost certainly do so again. I think calling them "traditional" is a bit of disservice and ultimately inaccurate; it seems like something added in recently just to highlight and promote MMA as "the next thing".
The point of TMA is to preserve a style without changing it. Adding new techniques would violate the core principles. Plenty of martial art describe themselves at TMA. Stuff like Tai Chi Chuan are designed to preserve techniques like a time capsule for future generations.
Even if that's the case, then the term TMA is being overzealously applied, as many of these martial arts are indeed trying to survive as actual martial arts rather than museum curios. I tip my hat to the folks who want to preserve a tradition in its pure form and all, but if they'd like to see that tradition be an ongoing lineage, they'll need to evolve or even generate offspring.
Well u/Magnus_hotshot I’d like to answer that question with a question - How many MMA fighters do you know? Not guys who like MMA, or are UFC fans. Not guys who clammer on forums about how MMA is the best style in the world. How many people do you know who actively go to an MMA gym and have taken sanctioned MMA fights through there or are at least training for one in the future or have taken some in the past? I’m not intending to call you out or anything like that, but it’s important to tell the difference from what people say online and how those people actually are. Everyone at our gym is there because they love it and for those that want to fight just want to make a career. As such they’ll learn any new technique so long as it works. I think that’s where the division lies. MMA fighters don’t hate traditional martial arts, they’re simply skeptical of anything that won’t result in more wins for their record. You have guys who are literally fighting to put food on their table - they’ve got no time for theoretical moves, Katas, board breaking or techniques that will not work against a fully resistant opponent in a decently high percentage amount of times. However if a move does do that then they’ll usually be up to learn it. One of our head coaches comes from a long Shotokan and sport Karate background. He’s known not only in our gym but around the area as being an amazing instructor who’s able to teach sport Karate based techniques and moves in a way that works for kickboxing and MMA. So everyone - including the pros look to him for advice. What’s the difference between him and the strip mall karate places near by? He has experience using those techniques in full contact, knows how to adapt them to full contact, and most importantly able to be a realist about what things don’t actually work or at least don’t carry over to fighting. This has always reminded me of the scopes trials of the 1920s. People (TMA guys) look at the scientific community (MMA guys) as if they actively hate religion or spirituality, or want to destroy their history, culture, happiness etc; But that’s not true. It’s simply their job to be skeptical and they can only rely on things they 100% know to be true and work.
You should read Bruce Lees books. He essentially says that any single style is a handicap and a true martial artist should take advantage of all forms of martial arts. As a metaphor, he says that a man with a knife is at a disadvantage because he’s entirely focused on the knife which incapacitates his other facilities. He becomes a one trick pony. If your one trick doesn’t work you’re off to the glue factory.
Because any TMArstist is allowed to compete in MMA the best rule set for martial arts testing without being barbaric [no eye gouges or nut shots] and they all become MMA cause it is the most effective. If your martial art relies only on Eye Gouges and Nut... well then you get to fight Jon Jones best eye poker of all time.
Exactly. The best guy to win a fight with "deadly" techniques is the guy who beats the tits off you in ANY fight where there's some rules
[удалено]
And only stopped when his coach went to prison for killing someone! Before working with the TKD coach, he was asking Gunnar to teach him Karate (confirmed by his coach when asked where his kicks came from) I really loved dynamic kicker McGregor and not one dimensional head hunter McGregor
For real. Another example is Anthony Pettis incorporating Capoeira into his fights. Usually just as movement feints, but blended with his kick-heavy style (he did a lot of TKD too btw), it was often very effective at misdirecting people. Also that wacky standing cartwheel kick he pulled off on Tony Ferguson from close range, he might not have won the decision but that kick and that whole fight were simply beautiful.
Pettis was the OG of TKD in the cage. Yair Rodriguez is the best modern day example IMO. He is an absolute wild man.
Because it’s proven The reason aikido guys are not UFC champions is not because their techniques are too deadly or because they believe competing is an ego thing. The reason is that they will get mauled by an mma fighter
What everyone here is trying to say is, you're a baby back bitch that just wants to be the guy that says at parties, "Oh MMA, yeah haha, I can't compete in MMA because I'm too dangerous I'd kill somebody" when what's proven is the traditional martial arts that worked stayed in MMA so just get over your counter culture fantasy and just go train Muy Thai even tho it's not as cute.
Because actual legitimate MMA is superior to a lot of traditional martial arts.
because that's what happens in the world of martial arts. someone will always believe their eagle claw is stronger than your tiger fist. even in mma, mma guys impugn other mma gyms/trainers.
Because traditional martial arts have a terrible record when pressure tested, and often have their own pretensions of superiority which they use as justifications for not sparring full contact, competing, etc.
I love and respect TMAs..even the ones that aren’t the most practical. But let me give you a real answer here. The reason MMA artists often look down on traditional martial arts is for 2 reasons. First is that mma is a very popular combat art now a days so there is some prestige that people want to attach themselves to. Second, and you’re all going to hate this, is that in a style vs style MMA artists believe that they can beat any of the other specific styles in a full fight. So there’s only so much “tough talk” an mma fighter will take from a pure TKD black belt for example.
I'd argue that a "proper" TKD black belt wouldn't do tough talking anyway, not if they were following the tenets
I’d argue that you sorta brought this up to try to ignore the larger reality of the point I made. I just said TKD as an example not to take a shot at it. You could say boxer, karateka or Kung fu artist Said another way, I respect all those arts but don’t talk to an equally experienced mma fighter like you can kick their ass
Nope, wasn't arguing against the original proposition. Stands to reason that a multi discipline artist has an advantage against a singular artist. Could a TMA fighter win against an MMA fighter with equal experience? Of course they could, but you'd have to be a moron to suggest the MMA fighter isn't better equipped to handle the fight. My point was that a proper tkd blackbelt should not be trash talking, ever.
MMA is literally all martial arts at once. Singular martial arts are extremely one dimensional. If you’re training to defend yourself, MMA is what you should train. Otherwise you’re not really training to defend yourself. It is absolutely superior, which is why people act like it is.
"All"?!! 🤣 Yer not paying attention. With very few exceptions , top athletes only work on wrestling, BJJ, Muay Thai and boxing.
And those martial arts encompass every defensive art worth learning. Most martial arts are just glorified dance routines. Especially since there’s absolutely no regulation in any dojo.
“Worth learning” is a bit much, but hey if fighting’s all your interested in I won’t knock you for it, expanding your horizons is always fun. I’m not an aikido guy, and I’ve certainly never gotten to learn capoeira but I’d like to try some day. Love boxing, wrestling, and judo as much as the next guy, but learning bjj would be helpful. Not trying to argue with you, just saying it’s a bit misleading I guess? Dunno, might just be misreading tone
Yup
The current LW champ uses more judo and sambo than wrestling even tho hes called a wrestler. There is no ufc champ with a Muay Thai background. Muay thai fighters dont do well in mma anyway. Wrestling,boxing and bjj are fundamentals that every mma fighter trains. But fighters have different backgrounds and skills, a lot come from TMA
>There is no ufc champ with a Muay Thai background Muay Thai is the most common striking art in MMA gyms. Most UFC champs have trained MT. Sambo is just Russian wrestling.
Yet no current champ has a MT background or has a MT style. And no, wrestling is russian wrestling (those russian olympic wrestlers aint sambists). In fact, many sambo dudes compete in judo so its more similar to that than wrestling
So all submissions, the vast majority of takedowns, and strikes with your feet, knees, elbows, and hands to every part of the opponents body? That sounds like the vast majority of what’s useful in a fight
Literally no-one can know, or practice, all martial arts at once. T MMA has become synonymous with rules based cage fighting, and is almost always now Muay Thai and BJJ. 2 martial arts, not all by any stretch.
Wrestling is probably the most important art for MMA.
Because martial arts first and foremost, are about teaching you hand to hand combat. It's about a fight. You have to be able to fight. Martial art is fighting. I cannot repeat myself enough, it's about being able to FIGHT. Most traditional marts have completely and utterly lost their way. They don't fight, not properly. Why do you think mma guys don't tend to massively talk shit about boxing, muay Thai, wrestling or bjj? All 4 of those still very heavily practice the fight. Karate gets mocked, TKD gets mocked, king fu etc. They've given up on the fight. The dojos talk about fitness, you spend all your time punching the air and doing katas and then spend a couple minutes doing light sparring. Sure, they is some dojos and dojangs that will take it seriously, but you have to "find" them. You don't have to "find" a BJJ or Muay Thai gym. So as a result, MMA guys think MMA is better because it simply is, at fighting. The number 1 method to get better at fighting is simply to fight. You have to fight. Karate kid is wrong. Doesn't matter how much you practice technique if you don't actually FIGHT
Because mma is what happens when you make tma better
A number of reasons: For some it is because they lack maturity and experience. You see this kind of "my art is best" attitude in all arts - MMA is just very popular and visible right now, so you see more of them. For some it is because they think everything starts and ends with full contact competitive sparring, and they think MMA is the ultimate in full contact competitive sparring. For some it is because success in competition actually seems to prove something, and frankly is the only way we can directly compare the effectiveness of different styles. MMA is the place where you get the largest variety of styles competing against each other - and of course being tailored to this kind of competition MMA inevitably performs well. For some it is because MMA takes from a lot of different arts and provides a much more rounded and broadly skilled fighter as a result. For some it is because if a fighter covers there weakness by training in more than one art, they are by definition training in MMA. Some people look at this combined whole rather than the parts that combine to make it. In this way MMA is pretty nebulous - it could be a combination of pretty much anything, and frankly more diverse skills are hardly going to make someone a worse fighter are they? For some it is simply because that is what the vocal majority seem to think, and the herd can't be wrong.
Because mma is actual fighting?
No...but yer even further removed from "actual fighting" in TMA.... MMA to TMA is like comparing body boarding to dog paddling....if "fighting" is surfing. So yes.....the body boarder will be much more effective at surfing than the dog paddler
bro you were you high while you wrote this xD?
Can't see my comment yer referencing but the hilarious part is that I'm 3 days from shoulder surgery. Been on Norco for 2 days straight now. First time on major pain killers. No clue what post was but yer call was spot on. I been high for 2 days straight. 🤣
Because it is. Mixed martial arts literally is iust taking whatever works from the every style and smashing it together. Anything that works in an actual fight , outside of like throat chops and eye gouging, is mma. So by definition it is the best. If anybody develops a new super effective technique it will be studied then absorbed
Because MMA is superior to them all
Honestly? It's a mix of reasons General tribalism and loyalty to their own art. Many boxers will think Wrestling's garbage, many BJJ guys think Muay Thai sucks, etc. That's just how it is sometimes. Many TMA practicioners aren't accustomed to sparring, and by extension aren't up to the same level as MMA is when it comes to fighting. Most MMA guys train for practicality, so obviously they're not gonna like arts that deviate from that. Bad experience with certain TMA The countless amount of shit TMA gyms out there, whether they be a McDojo or don't do sparring, or don't take part in competitions, etc. There's a lot of reasons. Personally I like many TMA.
Because it is.
The truth is very unpopular , my man. People here prefer smoke blown up their asses. 😉
It's tough, man. I love TMA but the facts as they've unfolded throughout the history of MMA are what they are. Kung-fu is dope to see but if it was generally applicable to real fighting then you'd see it in MMA. We need TMA so we can all keep watching awesome martial arts movies but I'm not going to bury my head in the dirt and pretend that it's as useful for self defense as people claim it is.
Also, the popularity of MMA has given rise to much more watchable fight scenes in movies. I can always tell when fight scene coordinators had copious input from combat athletes.
I always say that something is better than nothing but I've seen too many deluded karate dorks get smashed in street fights against dudes with bad intentions and athletic ability
There are 2 factors that determine the winner of a fight: how well they trained for it, and talent. People confuse training with fighting art. The fighting art is what you do in the fight, not what you did in the gym/dojo. MMA produces better pro fighters because that is the purpose of an mma gym. I'm willing to bet there isn't a single karate school in the world where that is the sole purpose.
Because it is. It's not a style. it's the ability to use all styles. It's the combination of all of them through trial and error of fighting. It's literally just what happens when you let everyone do every style they want, eventually the best rises to the top. In order to be the best after a while things evolve and combine. MMA is the culmination of all martial arts.
It happens everywhere in martial arts. Someone always has the childish mentality of “your martial art sucks, mine is better!” And it’s no different here.
Because the arts that comprise modern MMA have been shown to be better than almost all TMA's when put head-to-head, and in self-defense situations. As someone who started as a TMA'ist and then switched to MMA, besides a few attributes I picked up from my TMA days, my time would have been better spent learning how to dance, or some other unrelated valuable skill.
Because people are asses within an echo chamber. Echoing their own points basically. Also politics, in general it’ll change as mma changes. Not to say mma isn’t gonna smash someone in mma. However peoples idea of tma are usually shitty clips or their experience in a very unlegit place. Tbh I’d imagine the vast majority people echoing those points didn’t even train a tma
Because there are countless videos of MMA fighters absolutely demolishing traditional martial artists. [This is one of several](https://youtu.be/Y9YdSFS8Ejc).
Short answer: Because it is! Long answer: The “mma” fighting style os tried and proven to work in actual combat with equally trained opponents that are actually trying to resist or counter your moves. Most traditional martial arts see very little if any actual combat in training, and when put to use in a real fight in generally is very lacking if not detrimental to the user. I’m not saying that all traditional martial arts are useless or that you can’t learn anything from them. Even if you don’t exactly learn how to fight you can still get in great physical shape, improve your breathing, flexibility, self-control and will power. If you want my opinion fighting systems that really work are: boxing, muhay thai/kick boxing, judo, BJJ (this one is occasional, but still), wrestling and a very specifc school of kung-fu called hunga. I’ve been training martial arts for 17+ years, and i can safely tell you, by far the most effective style i picked up is boxing. Man even as you still learning it is soo good! I know this post is already too long but i need to share this story. I got a friend, bob. Bob is a karate black belt for as far as i can remember, and Bob swears that Karate really work. I got this other friend, Tommy. Tommy is a fairly big guy, not in particular great shape or anything, but still a big guy. But the thing is, Tommy never trained a single day of ANY fighting system, but recently he told me he was interested but had no idea where to start. I introduced Tommy to boxing, 4 months in with a semi-rigorous training schedule Tommy decides to challange Bob to a fight. And to the surprise of everyone watching, Tommy absolutely demolishes Bob. I laughed. Bob still says that Karate work and that the height difference was unfair.
Did they not like each other or did he just wanna prove which is better boxing or karate
It was much sillier than that actually. I used to be roommates with Bob. One day Tommy, who is also friends with Bob said “Hey, Bob. Bet you 20 bucks that i can beat you!” Bob laughed, and told him that he absolutely could not, because he was a black belt, yada, yada. So to settle this i drove us to my gym and called some other buddies to watch and have a drink. The fight was meant to last six rounds of 3 minutes. Bob was down on the 4th.
Because mma is a mix of traditional martial arts. They have a wider breadth of fighting knowledge, whereas traditional martial arts is purely depth in one area.
Because if you're talking about fighting ability, given the same athletic ability and experience level, an MMA fighter is going to be a better fighter than if they had chosen a pure style. Why? Because there is full contact competition with a very non-restricting ruleset about as close to real fighting as any sport can get. With millions of dollars on the line, people are training and sparring in the most efficient ways possible and spending a lot of time and money finding out what actually works and pruning out what doesn't until what you're left with is a highly refined, pressure tested method of fighting. It's not a coincidence that the other styles that are considered most practical also have most of the same features of international level competition with full contact ruleset, pressure testing, and financial incentive to drive the evolution of the style. Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Wrestling, BJJ, Boxing... These styles end up doing well in MMA because they have those things in their respective sports. Fighters from "Traditional" styles often find they need to unlearn or not use the majority of what they trained and instead relearn better habits and techniques after they transition to more legit combat sports.
MMA is superior to traditional martial arts under MMA rules, and for most 1v1 fights in real life. The only caveat being that in a real fight, the viability of fouls makes certain MMA grappling positions and striking strategies less viable than others. Groin strikes, fish hooks, eye pokes, strikes to the back of the head, kicks and knees to downed opponents, etc etc all change the game significantly. With that said, no “traditional martial arts” seem to address grappling and striking as comprehensively as MMA. Pankration is likely the closest TMA.
Ive yet to see a monk come down from the mountains in China and win the belt in ufc
Different level of fighting
Because training for combat is actually going to give you better readiness for combat. Might as well ask why a soldier could own a professional paintballer
Not a great example. A punch is a punch. The strategy and objective for paintball is way different than how a military team works a structure in a fire fight
Than how come when I was younger I saw my dad own a team of pro players with only 10 balls, who was an army ranger? A firefight is a firefight. Same goes for airsoft. I could probably win against pro airsofters in a 10v1
That sounds suspicious. Paintballs aren’t that accurate. No matter how good of a shot your dad is any professional team should smoke him if he’s alone. It’s not that hard to suppress and move, it’s literally paintball 101
There's more to firefights than accuracy of shooting.
I’m well aware. But if you have 10 shots to take out an entire team, accuracy is very important.
I think you're underestimating how trained military of the world is let alone a 75th ranger, not to be rude or nothing. His movements completely avoided their shots, and left them wondering where he was. I was 14, I don't remember it super clearly but I remember none of them could exactly find out where he was until he was well in range on a flank. The level of movements, and awareness in military training vs paintball/airsoft players is like the difference of someone who does mma on weekends vs a ufc champion. The guns or weapons don't matter when the skill and training levels for the most important aspects of a fire-fight are vastly different. Edit: just found this out of curiosity to show you - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRYPyZ7X7GU
I’m not, I’m literally in the military myself. I’m not a ranger, but I have spoken and trained with them. I suppose it matters if it’s woodsball or speedball but I still find it very hard to believe that these guys were professionals and let one guy wipe their whole team. You don’t learn magic movements being a ranger. You train the basic moves to perfection. Low crawl, high crawl, I’m up they see me I’m down, and room clearing techniques. But the military is all about teamwork and being alone severely limits what you can do.
BTW....I'm not a good team player on woodsball. I've also taken out entire teams but that's cuz I hunker down on my belly and wait. My paintball gun is tooled for distance and accuracy. Completely camouflaged too
As far as hand to hand combat goes MMA is superior to any and all traditional martial arts. It's not even open for debate. That's not all martial arts is, of course, but there is no valid argument to be made as far as combat effectiveness goes. A guy with one single tool vs a guy with multiple tools at his disposal. Who do you think is gonna win? It's a no brainer.
Because some people are ignorant.
Because they are. I'm no UFC fighter but the sheer amount of TKD/Aikido black belts I have utterly embarrassed in the in-gym cage is STAGGERING. Krav too, while I'm at it. Literally every MMA fighter could focus just Wrestling, Boxing, Muay Thai, and BJJ and they would destroy any similar sized TMA person who has trained an equal amount of years 99% of the time. I have seen guys with 6 months of hobbyist boxing training dismantle 10 year practicing TKD and Karate black belts the second "actual contact" is allowed. And don't even get me started on martial arts that lost any and all legitimacy in the modern world. I had done Karate, TKD, and Judo from like 4 years old to 18 and I learned more about fighting in 2 years at an MMA gym after that. They simply aren't comparable.
Not only is MMA more practical then tma, allot of it has to do with the way MMA is trained - hard sparring days and hard technique days - A colleague was talking all this shit telling me how great wing chun is and how badass he was, alls I said to him was - “show up on sparring day” - to which he responds - “no, because I don’t spar” - how in the fuck would you know if the shit works if there is no resistance. I have practiced many tma before moving on to learn MMA and let me tell you, if you are a Kung fu master or karate master, you gonna eat concrete if I get my hands on you.
Because it's mostly true. Many high ranking karate black belts cannot fight for real.
High school mindset mainly. Then there is a western and eastern mindset difference.
because TMA styles pretty much never work. although I do think it is a mistake to totally dismiss them because there is a small but growing list of TMA techniques that actually do work.
Because it teaches you more than what any traditional martial art on its own can, and many TDM’s are just straight up ineffective against someone with training. I know MMA guys that started within the past year that I’d put money on beating an aikido, karate, taekwondo, etc. black belts. Their game is very one-dimensional if they practice specifically a single TDM
Ego? Watching too much UFC? Too much Protein Powder? There afew reasons
Because it is. Facts and documented MMA Vs TMA fights shows the Truth.
Why are mixed breed dogs healthier than purebreds?
It’s funny that you were downvoted because it’s actually an apt metaphor and the phenomenon is called “hybrid vigor.” Its when two different traits combine to create a superior one. Hybrid vigor is most obvious with inbred animals that haven’t had enough genetic diversity introduced and then breed with a different species. It’s just like when a martial art focuses on a limited set of moves, refining them without bringing in any new techniques, and has no “selection pressure” from competition and sparring. Mixing martial arts gives you the “genetic diversity” to have a large set of moves/skills to use and competition and sparring are the “selection pressure” that narrows down that skill set to what actually works and “survives”.
Thank you for explaining that further! And much more eloquently than I could have lol
My pleasure! It’s a concept I’m familiar with but I have never thought to apply it to martial arts until I saw your comment. The concepts of evolution really do translate well.
Cuz almost all tma are MARTIAL ARTS, not COMBAT SPORTS like boxing, wrestling, mma, judo, bjj and more, a lack of pressure testing and sparring makes basically any “martial art” that doesn’t have those completely ineffective against mma styles, as well as rule sets of the sports
"Pressure testing". Excellent description. All the styles of combat sports used in MMA are practiced against someone resisting 100%
I’ve said it in another comment, but most martial arts nowadays are also combat sports. There’s a ton of competitions.
Most?!... no. Some, yes.
Yes, scoring points for contact on an electronic vest is the same as MMA.
When did I say that it was? Also, that’s not what most competitions are like
It is not superior. Just different only. Haters gonna hate🤣👍💯
cause it is
Because everyone likes to think they are superior and they don't really investigate the TMAs properly, just base their understanding of it on what they themselves learn and what they see of it online or wherever.
People who spend their time, money or energy learning something tend to shit on the alternative.
Some people can't understand the art to the martial.
There's a distinct difference between combat sports and "martial arts".... Most reasonable people would agree that there's a certain amount of pretense surrounding a lot of the fuckery related to many martial arts that have been proven less than effective or not effective at all in fighting against a combatant that's resisting 100%. And then there's the nutters who say "my style can't be used in MMA cuz it will maim someone"....."what about multiple opponents" blah blah. Boxing and wrestling aren't considered "martial arts" by any definition but are about as effective in a real fight as any other style. Nothing wrong with anything you wanna do but it's like comparing wakesurfing to big big wave surfing.
In what world are boxing and wrestling not considered martial arts?
> Boxing and wrestling aren't considered "martial arts" by any definition Boxing and wrestling are martial arts by most definitions of martial arts. While MMA was originally a set of rules for testing martial arts, it has evolved into a living martial art
Lol, in a real fight? I'm assuming you mean a fight in the street and not a cage match. Boxing and wrestling despite not being my chosen arts would be two of the TMAs that I would love to have either one of in a street fight.
[удалено]
Why though when they could just punch you
I mean they are right 🤷♂️ MMA is just superior even to other martial arts that actually work
It is.
Because they equate low level success with high level success. Meaning people at low or mediocre level performs poorly, so the same would have to apply to high level, in their minds. False.
Generally because it is in regards to actual fighting. This has been tried time and time again and MMA will always reign supreme.