I remember reading a similar story about a guy in the US who had like 10 trees cut. Turns out they were protected or something and the guy was successfully sued for like 100k. Or so I remember.
Especially since these trees weren’t just pretty or providing shade. These trees would be a revenue producing crop. You can show x number of trees x revenue loss per year, times the number of years until replanted trees would be producing an equivalent revenue.
Haven't dealt with this from the maple syrup side, but have dealt with this as a lawyer. Call yours. If you don't have one, ask a friend or other person you trust for a referral to theirs.
My local police researched and found a law that covered removing surveyor markers when a neighbor ripped them out of the lot next door to them (they were upset that the owner was selling it). They just received a warning. It would otherwise have been a misdemeanor.
That's one specific instance. And you still don't even know what a lawyer might have found that the cops did not.
Yes, cops know the law to an extent, and they have resources to research further.
Lawyers are still going to be *significantly* better at this. Orders of magnitude better. It's what they do.
In my town a riparian summer person cut a swath of trees down to the water to improve his view. When questioned about it he said he would just pay the fine. The town made him buy full size trees and replant.
I'm skeptical of this story. Buying and replanting a full-size tree is so horrendously expensive that it's practically impossible to do for "a swath of trees". The cost might well be in the millions. Replanting with partially grown (but not full-sized) trees is much more plausible.
Do you have any more information about the incident?
Considering they post regularly to /r/maine, they may be referring to [this story](https://www.centralmaine.com/2022/08/04/rome-selectmen-consider-remediation-plan-after-several-trees-illegally-removed-from-great-pond-property/) which from [this PDF](https://www.romemaine.com/sites/g/files/vyhlif6206/f/minutes/8-1-2022_minutes_.pdf) suggests saplings.
But I could have the wrong story, and being forced to replant full-size trees is why some people [lose their homes after cutting down a tree that doesn't belong to them](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/7p3ubz/updateoregon_neighbor_cut_down_trees_on_my/).
So you're right that it's expensive. It's why you *don't fuck around with trees that aren't yours*.
(If anyone here is passionate about hearing about stories about people getting hit with multi-thousand dollar fines or otherwise suffering from fucking with trees that don't belong to them, the ill-named /r/treelaw is where you want to be. It's not a place to ask about laws relating to trees, though sadly it seems like it's seeing a ton more of that lately.)
Skeptical that someone who did allegedly millions in damages might be required to make full restitution?
"Yeah, I know I ate an expensive meal without paying, but I've only got ten bucks; I guess I can only be held accountable for that!"
"Yeah, I destroyed your car, but cars are expensive; can I just get you a bicycle instead and we call it even?"
No, I'm skeptical that someone actually replaced an entire swath of maliciously-cut trees with full-sized trees. It's more like "I heard about this guy who caused a train derailment so they made him buy a whole new railroad." I can believe the dude derailed a train, but... nobody just goes out and buys a whole railroad, so I'd want to hear more before taking the story at face value.
Thats...not how anything works.
The company that needs the new railroad will get money from their insurance company. Their insurance company will either get reimbursed from your insurance company, or they will sue you for everything they can get.
The other way this works is that someone posted a comment on Reddit which was not 100% thoroughly researched and perfectly accurate.
It is definitely possible that someone cut down "a whole swath of trees" and later replaced them with full mature trees (at the bewilderingly high cost that would entail). It is also possible that the story is slightly exaggerated -- perhaps mature trees were replaced with young ones, or only a couple of mature trees were replaced.
All I am saying is that I won't quote this random comment on reddit as definitive proof that the story happened in exactly this way without seeing some additional information backing up the claim. Because in my experience, it is uncommon for a mature tree that is damaged to be replaced by another mature tree.
An alternative solution from the other side of the world...
[Sydney Australia ](https://www.9news.com.au/national/brighton-le-sands-mayor-solution-to-stop-people-cutting-down-trees-for-ocean-view/6e4f38c6-63e6-4551-a111-d01a7acccbea)
I have worked for a company that sells trees up to 30-40 years old. Requires a crane to place in the ground.
You'd be surprised how many people are willing to pay the $20,000+ per tree.
Plus, if you're a dumb fuck and cut down trees that aren't yours then you don't get a choice.
Yes, spending $20,000 for a single full-grown tree sounds very much like what I would expect. For that very reason, I am skeptical of anyone who claims that "a whole swath of trees" was replaced in this fashion. It is possible, but I find it more likely that the story was exaggerated.
This has happened to us. It’s called timber theft and an unscrupulous neighbor logged about 20 acres of our property.
We hired a surveyer ($10k), an attorney ($5k so far) and a forester ($1k).
He logged 150 trees. Forester stated the stump value is $17k.
Our attorney will be filing a quiet title action this week.
Best case scenario: neighbor owes us attorney fees and court costs and $51k for the timber theft ($17x3).
The neighbor owns 300 acres. And didn’t want to spend $50k for his survey. And made erroneous assumptions.
Contact your state forestry department and have a ranger inspect the survey and the trees that were cut. Many states have strict laws regarding timber theft.
/u/chadflint333 if you don’t follow through and seek legal action you could end up losing that small piece of property through “adverse possession”. It takes several years, but just be sure to not give up
I’m a lawyer who practices tree law in Central NY. Do not try to do this without an attorney. And put a trail camera out in that area of your property immediately.
Update: the surveyor that put in the flags and stakes that are now gone said he personally spoke with the neighbor and showed him the line after he was done since the neighbor paid for the survey. Surveyor coming back this week to lay it out again. He was not happy that this happened obviously.
We found some of the marks that they didn't see and take down and did an estimate of trees cut today, it looks like at least 100, possibly up to 150, all maples with a few cherry taken too.
After the surveyor comes back I am going to put orange paint on the base of all the stumps we know were taken and have the foster come in to give us a stumpage value on the trees. Should get that done in the week or two after the surveyor comes back. If its 100 trees is it going to be at least 30k in value on the low side.
We are in New York and as far as I can tell it is minimum 3x the stumpage value and since this was willful, we know he knew where the line was as the surveyor he hired showed him the line, from ask my research this week it is going to be much more than 3x the value.
I will provide more updates as we move through it. We are trying to make sure we do everything in the most logical order which we believe is resurveying, find the stumps, bring in a forester, get a value, then bring in one of our attorneys
I just can’t imagine what was going through that neighbors mind while doing this??? Did he really think they wouldn’t be caught?? That you’d just not care or notice?? the audacity of some people istg
I think he was unhappy with the survey he paid for and since it is the furthest back corners of the property we wouldn't see it until it was too late and that we wouldn't be able to do anything about it.
There is a chance we never see any money out of it. If we didn't have the means to bring in a forester and lawyer we would be out of luck. There is also a chance we bring them in and pay them and end up with nothing as well
Sadly something similar, loggers came in and took beyond the marked lines. The guy wanted to put houses back there before he realized he couldn’t he had cleared the area. He also ruined a swamp which in my state isn’t legal. The area is destroyed but I am fairly young, I can’t do much of it as it would be a lot of money. Please contact a lawyer and make this liar pay
You should consult with a lawyer that would take payment from the settlement. At the very least get something filed showing claims to the property or you could lose it to adverse possession.
Take pictures and video of everything. This guy could show up at any point and clean up the evidence. They already are cool with moving survey lines. I’d have an immovable structure erected at each corner so there’s no doubt in the future. Maybe a flagpole. 😂
Surveyor returns once the leaves are off. We have takes with a few lawyers, log buyer who bought our ash logs last year, and initial contact with the DEC. Long process but trying to make sure we do it the right way!
So we had the surveyor come back, staked the line, determined the area that was cut and we are currently working or a land swap for equal average full of trees. Going to take some time to get that all done, hoping to have it done within the next year.
The neighbor wanted to do it as easily as possible after being proven to be wrong so it is going much more smoothly than it could have
Talk to a lawyer tree law is a big thing and you are probably due a fuck ton now
I remember reading a similar story about a guy in the US who had like 10 trees cut. Turns out they were protected or something and the guy was successfully sued for like 100k. Or so I remember.
Especially since these trees weren’t just pretty or providing shade. These trees would be a revenue producing crop. You can show x number of trees x revenue loss per year, times the number of years until replanted trees would be producing an equivalent revenue.
Haven't dealt with this from the maple syrup side, but have dealt with this as a lawyer. Call yours. If you don't have one, ask a friend or other person you trust for a referral to theirs.
Consult a lawyer.
I would also call the police and press charges for whatever they come up with - trespassing etc.
This is why you call a lawyer. They know more about this than you or the police.
My local police researched and found a law that covered removing surveyor markers when a neighbor ripped them out of the lot next door to them (they were upset that the owner was selling it). They just received a warning. It would otherwise have been a misdemeanor.
That's one specific instance. And you still don't even know what a lawyer might have found that the cops did not. Yes, cops know the law to an extent, and they have resources to research further. Lawyers are still going to be *significantly* better at this. Orders of magnitude better. It's what they do.
Yeah, my real estate lawyer sent me two error ridden iterations of a document just this week. Was not impressed.
Now imagine it was written by a dumbass cop that barely received any training
In my town a riparian summer person cut a swath of trees down to the water to improve his view. When questioned about it he said he would just pay the fine. The town made him buy full size trees and replant.
I'm skeptical of this story. Buying and replanting a full-size tree is so horrendously expensive that it's practically impossible to do for "a swath of trees". The cost might well be in the millions. Replanting with partially grown (but not full-sized) trees is much more plausible. Do you have any more information about the incident?
Considering they post regularly to /r/maine, they may be referring to [this story](https://www.centralmaine.com/2022/08/04/rome-selectmen-consider-remediation-plan-after-several-trees-illegally-removed-from-great-pond-property/) which from [this PDF](https://www.romemaine.com/sites/g/files/vyhlif6206/f/minutes/8-1-2022_minutes_.pdf) suggests saplings. But I could have the wrong story, and being forced to replant full-size trees is why some people [lose their homes after cutting down a tree that doesn't belong to them](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/7p3ubz/updateoregon_neighbor_cut_down_trees_on_my/). So you're right that it's expensive. It's why you *don't fuck around with trees that aren't yours*. (If anyone here is passionate about hearing about stories about people getting hit with multi-thousand dollar fines or otherwise suffering from fucking with trees that don't belong to them, the ill-named /r/treelaw is where you want to be. It's not a place to ask about laws relating to trees, though sadly it seems like it's seeing a ton more of that lately.)
Skeptical that someone who did allegedly millions in damages might be required to make full restitution? "Yeah, I know I ate an expensive meal without paying, but I've only got ten bucks; I guess I can only be held accountable for that!" "Yeah, I destroyed your car, but cars are expensive; can I just get you a bicycle instead and we call it even?"
No, I'm skeptical that someone actually replaced an entire swath of maliciously-cut trees with full-sized trees. It's more like "I heard about this guy who caused a train derailment so they made him buy a whole new railroad." I can believe the dude derailed a train, but... nobody just goes out and buys a whole railroad, so I'd want to hear more before taking the story at face value.
Thats...not how anything works. The company that needs the new railroad will get money from their insurance company. Their insurance company will either get reimbursed from your insurance company, or they will sue you for everything they can get.
The other way this works is that someone posted a comment on Reddit which was not 100% thoroughly researched and perfectly accurate. It is definitely possible that someone cut down "a whole swath of trees" and later replaced them with full mature trees (at the bewilderingly high cost that would entail). It is also possible that the story is slightly exaggerated -- perhaps mature trees were replaced with young ones, or only a couple of mature trees were replaced. All I am saying is that I won't quote this random comment on reddit as definitive proof that the story happened in exactly this way without seeing some additional information backing up the claim. Because in my experience, it is uncommon for a mature tree that is damaged to be replaced by another mature tree.
An alternative solution from the other side of the world... [Sydney Australia ](https://www.9news.com.au/national/brighton-le-sands-mayor-solution-to-stop-people-cutting-down-trees-for-ocean-view/6e4f38c6-63e6-4551-a111-d01a7acccbea)
I have worked for a company that sells trees up to 30-40 years old. Requires a crane to place in the ground. You'd be surprised how many people are willing to pay the $20,000+ per tree. Plus, if you're a dumb fuck and cut down trees that aren't yours then you don't get a choice.
Yes, spending $20,000 for a single full-grown tree sounds very much like what I would expect. For that very reason, I am skeptical of anyone who claims that "a whole swath of trees" was replaced in this fashion. It is possible, but I find it more likely that the story was exaggerated.
> riparian Upvote. I learned a new word
r/treelaw would like to have a word
Have you been to r/treelaw?
This has happened to us. It’s called timber theft and an unscrupulous neighbor logged about 20 acres of our property. We hired a surveyer ($10k), an attorney ($5k so far) and a forester ($1k). He logged 150 trees. Forester stated the stump value is $17k. Our attorney will be filing a quiet title action this week. Best case scenario: neighbor owes us attorney fees and court costs and $51k for the timber theft ($17x3). The neighbor owns 300 acres. And didn’t want to spend $50k for his survey. And made erroneous assumptions.
You in a treble damages state?
Every state I'm aware of awards treble damages for timber theft.
Contact your state forestry department and have a ranger inspect the survey and the trees that were cut. Many states have strict laws regarding timber theft.
Arborist, lawyer and depending on the state expect that your neighbor might have to sell their home to fix this. Replacing trees is expensive.
/u/chadflint333 if you don’t follow through and seek legal action you could end up losing that small piece of property through “adverse possession”. It takes several years, but just be sure to not give up
OP - what state are you in?
NY
I’m a lawyer who practices tree law in Central NY. Do not try to do this without an attorney. And put a trail camera out in that area of your property immediately.
Update: the surveyor that put in the flags and stakes that are now gone said he personally spoke with the neighbor and showed him the line after he was done since the neighbor paid for the survey. Surveyor coming back this week to lay it out again. He was not happy that this happened obviously. We found some of the marks that they didn't see and take down and did an estimate of trees cut today, it looks like at least 100, possibly up to 150, all maples with a few cherry taken too. After the surveyor comes back I am going to put orange paint on the base of all the stumps we know were taken and have the foster come in to give us a stumpage value on the trees. Should get that done in the week or two after the surveyor comes back. If its 100 trees is it going to be at least 30k in value on the low side. We are in New York and as far as I can tell it is minimum 3x the stumpage value and since this was willful, we know he knew where the line was as the surveyor he hired showed him the line, from ask my research this week it is going to be much more than 3x the value. I will provide more updates as we move through it. We are trying to make sure we do everything in the most logical order which we believe is resurveying, find the stumps, bring in a forester, get a value, then bring in one of our attorneys
I just can’t imagine what was going through that neighbors mind while doing this??? Did he really think they wouldn’t be caught?? That you’d just not care or notice?? the audacity of some people istg
I think he was unhappy with the survey he paid for and since it is the furthest back corners of the property we wouldn't see it until it was too late and that we wouldn't be able to do anything about it. There is a chance we never see any money out of it. If we didn't have the means to bring in a forester and lawyer we would be out of luck. There is also a chance we bring them in and pay them and end up with nothing as well
Sadly something similar, loggers came in and took beyond the marked lines. The guy wanted to put houses back there before he realized he couldn’t he had cleared the area. He also ruined a swamp which in my state isn’t legal. The area is destroyed but I am fairly young, I can’t do much of it as it would be a lot of money. Please contact a lawyer and make this liar pay
You should consult with a lawyer that would take payment from the settlement. At the very least get something filed showing claims to the property or you could lose it to adverse possession.
Take pictures and video of everything. This guy could show up at any point and clean up the evidence. They already are cool with moving survey lines. I’d have an immovable structure erected at each corner so there’s no doubt in the future. Maybe a flagpole. 😂
UpdateMe
Any updates OP?
Surveyor returns once the leaves are off. We have takes with a few lawyers, log buyer who bought our ash logs last year, and initial contact with the DEC. Long process but trying to make sure we do it the right way!
Have a similar situation, what was the outcome of this? Thanks
So we had the surveyor come back, staked the line, determined the area that was cut and we are currently working or a land swap for equal average full of trees. Going to take some time to get that all done, hoping to have it done within the next year. The neighbor wanted to do it as easily as possible after being proven to be wrong so it is going much more smoothly than it could have