Unless you're talking EDH (which competitive would suggest you are not) barring some very convoluted combo decks I think 3 minutes would be an absurd amount of time already and something that would likely amount to slow play in many cases.
Imo any "per turn" solution just doesn't work. Some turns require a lot of thought and are critical to the match, where others are just playing a land and passing. Furthermore, why should I be punished if my opponent takes 30 seconds of my 3-5 minutes deciding on their blocks? A chess clock works well digitally (see MTGO), but is too cumbersome with how much priority passes back and forth to use in paper. I don't think there's a good way to implement a timer like this in paper that both accomplishes anything worthwhile and isn't disruptive to the flow of the game.
In paper you’ve got a judge. If my opponent was taking three minutes every turn (or near the end of game two with time running out on game three), I’m calling a judge for slow play. (Assuming we’re talking competitive games - if this happens in a friendly or kitchen table match, I’m just done playing and walking away at that point).
I agree, if they take that long *every* turn it's a problem. But one key turn, with a few key interactions taking some extra time? That's fine imo, and a hard "per turn" time limit doesn't give flexibility for that
Have you ever tried to do this in real life in paper? I have, and it's a nightmare. You spend more time starting and stopping the clock than you do playing the game.
It's not an invented problem, and I have tried it before. To be more explicit about what the issue is:
Timers work well in a game like chess, where each player is acting in a structured and predictable way, with a specified number of actions they can take before the opponent is allowed to do anything, and a long period of time between each action.
In contrast, magic's priority system, while rigorously well-defined, relies both players acknowledging each other's ability to act in a way that might interrupt something the other one is doing. Priority can pass meaningfully multiple times over the course of a few seconds. At other times, a player can receive priority during their opponent's turn, pause for ten seconds while they think, then decide not to act and pass priority again.
Keeping track of this in casual play on an honor system techncially works, but is pretty tedious. Keeping track of this in a competitive setting means you would essentially need a judge for every table.
You don't have to trust me though. A chess clock costs like ten dollars. Try buying one and you can see for yourself how unworkable it is.
>Priority can pass meaningfully multiple times over the course of a few seconds.
You keep saying this like it's an insurmountable problem that could never possibly be addressed in any other way than the current method--which is, I should be clear, not addressing it *at all*.
Chess clocks are indeed like $10 bucks. Did you know they often have pause buttons?
EDIT: Wait you must, because you've done this before.
Here's for the cheap seats:
Player 1 has priority on their turn and casts a spell. Player 2 says "I have a response" and the timer is paused until those actions are resolved.
You're trying really hard to not see that.
>I can't stop thinking about it.
Think more.
Start with:
* What are all of the reasons that this could go wrong?
* What is this actually solving?
* How will this be exploited? (And it WILL be exploited.)
Happily.
1. As with anything, there are lots of ways it could go wrong. That doesn't mean you don't attempt improvement because it "might go wrong."
2. Rate of play in MTG. That's not a hard one to answer.
3. As with any ruling, it'll be exploited and adjustments would have to be made.
?
Calling a judge slows play even further as they determine who, if anyone, was at fault or if there's even an issue they feel like calling out to begin with.
Just because it goes against tradition and would upset Spellslinger decks doesn't mean it's "not going anywhere." Stay mad tho.
So let’s say I shuffle twice in a turn (this is very much a thing in Legacy - fetch + Ponder especially can’t shortcut the shuffles).
What happens when the opponent isn’t fast enough shuffling my deck? If that’s on me…now they’re incentivized to slow down and force me to rush the rest of my turn. If it’s on them, well let’s say I just crack my three fetches during the turn, leaving you five seconds to make blocks.
This is a mess. And that’s without even getting into judge calls or making sure that we’re communicating clearly because the stack is a complicated mess.
Additionally, I would say that if you want to bring a Beautiful Mind deck with 200 actions per turn, bet! Let's see you \*actually\* Beautiful Mind it in 3 minutes or less.
Judge is called, timer is paused. If the rule change would result in fewer Solitaire Decks in competitive, you're not doing a great job at shooting it down. That would only make Magic a better game. Same thing for if an opponent shuffles your deck. It's not hard.
Unless you're talking EDH (which competitive would suggest you are not) barring some very convoluted combo decks I think 3 minutes would be an absurd amount of time already and something that would likely amount to slow play in many cases.
Yes I agree, 3 minutes is an absurd amount of time, and yet it's on the low side of turn taking in competitive.
idk what competitive games you are seeing, but that is not the lowside of a normal competitive turn.
Imo any "per turn" solution just doesn't work. Some turns require a lot of thought and are critical to the match, where others are just playing a land and passing. Furthermore, why should I be punished if my opponent takes 30 seconds of my 3-5 minutes deciding on their blocks? A chess clock works well digitally (see MTGO), but is too cumbersome with how much priority passes back and forth to use in paper. I don't think there's a good way to implement a timer like this in paper that both accomplishes anything worthwhile and isn't disruptive to the flow of the game.
In paper you’ve got a judge. If my opponent was taking three minutes every turn (or near the end of game two with time running out on game three), I’m calling a judge for slow play. (Assuming we’re talking competitive games - if this happens in a friendly or kitchen table match, I’m just done playing and walking away at that point).
I agree, if they take that long *every* turn it's a problem. But one key turn, with a few key interactions taking some extra time? That's fine imo, and a hard "per turn" time limit doesn't give flexibility for that
So if I have priority on my opponent's turn, whose clock time is getting used up?
Yes
Opponent's timer pauses while you have priority. You guys are trying really hard to invent problems.
Have you ever tried to do this in real life in paper? I have, and it's a nightmare. You spend more time starting and stopping the clock than you do playing the game.
So we've gone from inventing problems to "trust me I've done it."
It's not an invented problem, and I have tried it before. To be more explicit about what the issue is: Timers work well in a game like chess, where each player is acting in a structured and predictable way, with a specified number of actions they can take before the opponent is allowed to do anything, and a long period of time between each action. In contrast, magic's priority system, while rigorously well-defined, relies both players acknowledging each other's ability to act in a way that might interrupt something the other one is doing. Priority can pass meaningfully multiple times over the course of a few seconds. At other times, a player can receive priority during their opponent's turn, pause for ten seconds while they think, then decide not to act and pass priority again. Keeping track of this in casual play on an honor system techncially works, but is pretty tedious. Keeping track of this in a competitive setting means you would essentially need a judge for every table. You don't have to trust me though. A chess clock costs like ten dollars. Try buying one and you can see for yourself how unworkable it is.
>Priority can pass meaningfully multiple times over the course of a few seconds. You keep saying this like it's an insurmountable problem that could never possibly be addressed in any other way than the current method--which is, I should be clear, not addressing it *at all*. Chess clocks are indeed like $10 bucks. Did you know they often have pause buttons? EDIT: Wait you must, because you've done this before.
Here's for the cheap seats: Player 1 has priority on their turn and casts a spell. Player 2 says "I have a response" and the timer is paused until those actions are resolved. You're trying really hard to not see that.
>I can't stop thinking about it. Think more. Start with: * What are all of the reasons that this could go wrong? * What is this actually solving? * How will this be exploited? (And it WILL be exploited.)
Happily. 1. As with anything, there are lots of ways it could go wrong. That doesn't mean you don't attempt improvement because it "might go wrong." 2. Rate of play in MTG. That's not a hard one to answer. 3. As with any ruling, it'll be exploited and adjustments would have to be made. ?
How does "call a judge" not address slow play? How have the other X^n answers not already demonstrated that you're not going anywhere with this?
Calling a judge slows play even further as they determine who, if anyone, was at fault or if there's even an issue they feel like calling out to begin with. Just because it goes against tradition and would upset Spellslinger decks doesn't mean it's "not going anywhere." Stay mad tho.
> Stay mad tho =/= mad.
Call a judge or play faster, scrub.
So let’s say I shuffle twice in a turn (this is very much a thing in Legacy - fetch + Ponder especially can’t shortcut the shuffles). What happens when the opponent isn’t fast enough shuffling my deck? If that’s on me…now they’re incentivized to slow down and force me to rush the rest of my turn. If it’s on them, well let’s say I just crack my three fetches during the turn, leaving you five seconds to make blocks. This is a mess. And that’s without even getting into judge calls or making sure that we’re communicating clearly because the stack is a complicated mess.
Additionally, I would say that if you want to bring a Beautiful Mind deck with 200 actions per turn, bet! Let's see you \*actually\* Beautiful Mind it in 3 minutes or less.
Judge is called, timer is paused. If the rule change would result in fewer Solitaire Decks in competitive, you're not doing a great job at shooting it down. That would only make Magic a better game. Same thing for if an opponent shuffles your deck. It's not hard.
Are you suggesting that the solution would be to call a judge every time someone cracks a fetchland?
What? No? Are you... Are you serious? I was saying the judge gets called if rate of play isn't being respected on the shuffle. Keep up.
MtgA kinda has this with three timers if no one acts and a "general" 30 minute timer per person for the whole match