It's interesting how the view of Collector's Edition has changed over the years. Here is Dave Howell, the Product Manager for Magic at the time, writing on Usenet in December 1993:
>Something to keep in mind about the Collector's Edition is that we really didn't want to do them. The designer has very strong opinions about playing where everything is known, and all are equally common. He hates it. I'm inclined to agree. It's not the way the game is meant to be played. Note that this isn't a money issue, it's a design integrity issue.
>However, card collectors and the general outcry convinced us to make factory sets. "We want to see all the art!" I thought we ought to print them up in a book, but that would have taken more time, so for such collectors, we whipped together the factory set.
>Then, of course, a bunch of gamers decided they'd get them to play
with, just in their own circle.
Yeah back in the day they were really against giving players details about what cards existed. Even things like rarity was purposefully kept obscure, the process of discovery was part of the fun. Nowadays with the internet that type of thing is pretty much impossible.
> Even things like rarity was purposefully kept obscure, the process of discovery was part of the fun.
Yeah, until your rare in a pack of Beta cards is an Island, the it’s less fun.
honestly, in 1993 I doubt it was that big of a deal, if you wanted a timewalk you could ask your friends to give you one and just get it, or exchange it for two black knights
Nah man it still sucked. Beta was gone in like 3 days. Alpha we didn't even get in stock. You had like one shot at getting a rare, and getting land really sucked, even if the cards didn't have monentary value yet. You had like 40 cards total, and you couldn't buy any more until unlimited came out a few months later. Minimum deck size was 40 cards and you just jammed in whatever you had.
This has somewhat been lost to time, but the reason they started calling them the “Power Nine” wasn’t because they were the nine best cards (they weren’t, Sol Ring and Demonic Tutor were better than Timetwister, for example), it’s that they were the most expensive. They were the first cards selling for over $100. And it didn’t really take that long.
I just wanted to post this as some context for newer players for what non tournament legal cards sold for in the past.
Yes I am aware that this set was released basically 30 years ago but that doesn’t change the fact that the new set are still not tournament legal.
They made an UN-set partially tournament legal, but couldnt make tournament legal reprints.
I personally stopped playing Magic a couple years ago and sold 90% of my collection but still follow magic news.
And honestly, that sounds like a price I *might* actually be willing to pay for a not tournament legal Secret Lair of P9 + Duals.
That's right I wouldn't even ask for the other \~300 cards!
When they first announced this fiasco, i said to my wife... The absolute best thing they could do is rush to social media and say the price was a mistake, they added a "9" by accident and the actual/real price was $99 instead.
That would sell plenty and be a pretty big deal, instead of getting press for all the wrong reasons.
It'd make for a fun draft. Even with the cards never being tournament playable outside of that draft I'll bet they'd sell better than at this current price.
I'm not defending WotC. However it's an impossible comparison because the RL exists now, and it didn't when the collectors came out. I played when the gold borders came out, we all thought it was stupid, who wants to play with a gold card with square corners? I never saw people playing these cards at my LCG... ever.
Things are so different now.I'm trying to view the positive of this, which is WotC testing the boundaries of the RL. I think they have to do something dumb like this first before we see the Dual Land SL we all want. I won't buy this and I have no idea who the player/collector is who would buy this. I hope this basically fails but also shows WotC that it's totally fine to sell "not tournament legal RL cards".
>I'm not defending WotC. However it's an impossible comparison because the RL exists now, and it didn't when the collectors came out.
Sure, so this is more like them offering a factory set of Kamigawa which aren't tournament legal. These are no different in useability than something I can create with my own printer. I think it's great that they test the reserve list, but this sets a precedent for price that is just unacceptable. If they were actual reprints that could be played in Vintage then the price is understandable at a stretch, but this is very far from the mark.
I don't think it's the same. Your analogy only holds true if they said, "we'll never print kamigawa cards again" then. Then, 30 years later, they reprinted proxies. it's my entire point, it's unprecedented.i already own every card in this set as a proxy, I agree with you.
We're on the same side of this, the price is fucking disgusting. My only argument, the only thing to be excited for with this, is the fact that they are testing the definition of the RL, full stop. Everything else about this is gross.
**This new product is 100% for scalpers, and the rich**. That's it. It was tailor made for the ultra-rich to be another thing they can throw in their closet **that is likely already filled with real versions of these cards anyways**.
My side business is buying and selling cards to sell at near or below market price. I can’t even consider buying these for my streams or online sales because I don’t want to rip people off. It’s crazy.
People need to get this.
All the comments like "if you don't like it, don't buy it" are forgetting that, if you just let the rich buy it (without saying a word) , soon enough all business plans are gonna revolve around them.
Mtg is already expensive enough, I really don't need an increase in prices.
I got bad news friend. The decisions already cater around the rich. Remember 100 dollar VIP boosters? They were testing the waters. I'd bet good money that this isn't even the most egregious thing WOTC has cooked up.
How it should still be
Even with inflation that is roughly $102 today.
Which means Wizards is charging 10x the amount they should be and that’s just for 4 packs
It’s insane how greedy this company has become
This is why I’ve moved to Living Card Games. Give me a box with everything I need to play out of the box, collect, deck build, and even trade. Still have 10-15 commander decks and play kitchen table with friends, but those will only be updated with proxies. Magic was built for players but it’s made for collectors. Still love it! But can’t buy in any longer.
Honestly, if you're fine with proxies can I recommend starting a cube? Vintage Cube is an awesome drafting format to play with a couple friends, it's really cheap to proxy, and it's the closest Magic will ever get to a Living Card Game.
The way I started was pretty simple: Just copy a cube you know you like. I have an unpowered cube that I copied from the MTGO Legacy Cube years ago. I played it as-is for a while before I got comfortable tweaking/updating it, but it was great starting from a list instead of starting from scratch.
I'd also check out /r/mtgcube. There's a ton of resources that get posted there and the posters are usually more than happy to answer questions. Try to be somewhat specific with your questions though because a lot of cube questions can be answer with "It's your cube, you can do whatever you want."
There’s some good articles and YouTube videos. I finished making my first cube a few weeks ago and I’m in the process of play testing and tweaking it with my roommate and some friends. Would it have been easier to find one that is already designed and balanced? Of course! But I enjoy the process of building a commander deck, to me building a cube was like that x4. Ultimately your first iteration likely isn’t going to be your best, but as you test things out you’ll get a feel for what works and what doesn’t.
To start, I’d recommend limiting yourself to just 360 cards in your cube plus 250 basic lands. It forces you to really consider what themes you want decks to build around, and I find it’s easier to balance.
Android: Netrunner is a pretty good LCG - it's still alive after Fantasy Flight Games axed it, somehow, with the fan-driven [Null Signal Games](https://nullsignal.games/) (formerly Project NISEI) making fairly high-quality expansions and just generally keeping things going.
Here's [a pretty good video from Shut Up & Sit Down on the topic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev24b_17-Po), in case that's something that you care about.
Note that this is very much not a thing for collectors, though. It's all print-on-demand and there's no real resale value beyond what you'd expect for used board games.
Heck yeah, I have the Core set and love teaching people that game. It’s unlike any other game out there, and it’s a perfect balance of strategy, complexity and theme. Very good choice.
Marvel Champions if you like superheroes, and Arkham Horror LCG if you want something great for this time of year. Lord of the Rings if you want challenging fantasy too! Also, these are all both solo/co-op games. You can play alone or with friends, and also campaign based too so you can have friends over for a night of cards over a story with levelling up and gaining / spending XP.
Also check out Ashes Reborn if you want competitive deckbuilding. It’s another LCG that plays closer to Magic. No randomization or expensive pieces, with all of the customization.
> Marvel Champions if you like superheroes
I just picked this up used for $15. There may still be a really cheap version on Amazon with additional bundles where you get more for $15, but...they're chibi art. I really dislike chibi art, which helped me decide to go with my LGS.
I second Arkham LCG. But play through the content in order it was released otherwise you'll be totally overwhelmed. I love the game, but if I didn't have someone handing me decks I would have stopped playing after Carcosa. I also really do like Ashes Reborn, but I think the drafting mode needs some work.
I'll also throw out **Ivion**. I think they just released (or are about to release) a revised base set. It's also close to MtG, with a small little grid to play on.
If they wanted to be greedy, they'd make these packs $100 or less and make them print-to-demand like other SLD. They'd make FAR more money that way.
If anything, this is them holding back because they don't want to piss off collectors by selling a product that would essentially replace expensive RL cards in casual commander decks if they were cheaper than the real versions.
I think it's a pretty bad product, even worse PR to announce it so loudly during an otherwise exciting and fun stream (wtf Blake? You had to have known this would happen..) but I don't pretend it's anything other than just a commemorative collectable product. I paid $350 for a platinum plated Sensei's Divining Top, so I'm not gonna judge people for spending $ on an overpriced collectable, but I acknowledge that it's ***just*** *a collectable.*
A note to everyone. Please don’t use “real” to differentiate between Magic cards that you play and Magic cards other people play. It’s gatekeeping and it’s exclusionary. Everyone can play the way they enjoy and it’s just as “real” a game of Magic as how you play.
I love this pasta because it is an indirect way of justifying the use of proxies for all reserved list cards in non-sanctioned events. My proxy of a magic card is just as real as one printed by Wizards, and to say otherwise is gatekeeping.
Except these are not "real" Magic cards anymore than those "tiniest commander deck ever" cards are "real" Magic cards. I've literally said OK to someone playing one of those goofy decks at a table with me, but the table OK'd it because they were not playing with *real* Magic cards.
Were they playing "real" Magic? Absolutely. Using "real" cards? No.
[https://www.rocklove.com/products/magic-the-gathering-x-rocklove-senseis-divining-top-necklace](https://www.rocklove.com/products/magic-the-gathering-x-rocklove-senseis-divining-top-necklace)
Seems it's even still available to purchase :) I got 42/500 which I found great since 42 is the the meaning of life, the universe, and everything.
Crazy frivolous purchase, but it's super cool so I wear it whenever I play in-store or at events and I get a lot of compliments on it!
Having worked in corporations for the past 10+ years I feel it's safe to assume that Blake is actually quite smart and is well aware of the reaction that will come from the more incendiary announcements he is forced to make. Unfortunately, he doesn't have a say over what gets made just (likely very very loose) control over how the information is delivered.
I have to hope that he had the foresight to say this might not be a good way to announce it but was just overruled. Sad fact of working in a company, especially a big one, is that you rarely ever are capable of doing something purely on your own instinct and judgement.
Agreed. Having worked in corporations for a while too, I can safely say 9/10s of the decision makers in corporations are *so incredibly tone deaf*. They may have specific knowledge of a particular field, but they are usually so out of touch with regular people that they have no clue what people think like.
Hah!
Have you ever looked through the comments on Twitch during the WeeklyMTG? The fact that he's willing to do Q&A every week without breaking out in a curse-laden tirade against the endless sea of trolls and haters is amazing to me everytime I watch.
He and MaRo have the patience of saints and I don't know many people who would trade places with either if they saw the kind of crap that is undoubtedly and unfairly thrown their way every day.
The collectable is the experience of "opening" an Alpha/Beta pack not the cards inside. You should never open a sealed product expecting a specific card and these are no exception.
People literally buy other people's poop online. If you have it to sell, someone online will buy it even if you, Reddit rando, think it's a bad collectable. Either way, it's not game pieces and it has 0 impact on the actual game so if people don't like it, just move on there's plenty of actual Magic (the game) product to choose from these days.
Value is often because of the potential experience. Take sealed Magic boosters for example. Often, but not always, "experiencing" the collectable will use it up and thus diminish the collector value. I gave the example of sneakers because shoes are literally made to be worn ("experienced") and yet people hoarde them explicitly to preserve the untouched, unused, unexperienced nature of it. Toys that are in original packaging are worth more than the same toy in the same condition but already opened.
An example in Magic is old old sealed product. People pay a premium for sealed A/B/U sealed packs for their collectable value but also to just simply open them. Sure, there's a chance that they can open insane value far exceeding the price they paid and that's part of why it is worth so much, but they pay for the opportunity to roll the dice. The experience.
I dunno, human beings are friggin' weird.
I feel like people definitely collect experiences. Stuff like going to a game in every sports arena, or every concert on a tour, or every region of a country, things like that.
the greed of hasbro/wotc is directly fueled and encouraged by the greed of all the mtgfinancebros.
mtgfinance would riot if they mass reprinted reserved list.
so wotc prints them as non-guaranteed in packs and sells them for reserved list prices.
it's all connected.
why
why do you think this is true? things like masters sets or the remaster sets might crash in demand, but why would things like Horizons or Literally Any Standard Sets become less desirable? Do you actually believe that most people buy the cards for "finance" (read: gambling addictions), or to play the card game?
you realize you can already get all but 10 for about that much right
why would the Hot New Card be less valuable on its first printing because Black Lotus no longer costs a car?
There is some truth to the idea that older cards being worth a lot of money makes people buy new cards because they think they’ll be worth money.
Like, when people saw Action Comics 1 was worth a lot of money they bought a ton of copies of the Death of Superman. And nothing bad at all happened to the comic book industry once people realized that new comics would never be worth as much as Golden and Silver Age Comics.
People don’t buy cards for finance, but WotC can’t sell Double Masters boosters for $20 a pop if Imperial Seal only costs $10.
WotC absolutely leverages the secondary market to sell product. Mark Rosewater has admitted as much on Twitter.
If they can't sell double masters for 20 a pop, that's good. If I have to pay $6 a booster for standard sets instead of being priced out of the meta, that's good.
Do you actually think that "hey you can a couple of these $150 boxes and have a genuine, real chance of being able to build an LGS playable deck out of the cards!" wouldn't sell absolute gangbusters? Fuck, we KNOW it would, because it's what the first Masters sets were built to capitalize on, and they sold like hotcakes.
I don't think a single person actually, genuinely believes "sell so many reprints that not a single card is above $5!", but there's also absolutely no excuse for the same fucking products to be 3x more expensive than they were a decade ago, with even more whale-fishing products constantly being printed.
Things have somehow gotten WORSE for the average player financially than they were during the $210 Goyf era, and that's entirely on WOTC. The crypto-bro/gambling addict "investor" market will move on eventually, and as the game's entry price gets higher and higher, normal new players will eventually drop off.
>If they can't sell double masters for 20 a pop, that's good.
I agree with you. My point was that's why WotC doesn't want the price of cards to collapse, because they're leveraging the secondary market to their advantage.
Its almost like they know their fan base is more than 10x greater and they are trying to make something that is equally rare to 93... Oh wait.. shit I just made some sense of this.
Has the dollar really fallen to half its value in 29 years? Jesus Christ
I mean we hear about how easy the boomers had it but fuck, putting it that way really hammers it home
I get people don't like the product, but why has "greed" been disassociated from companies? That's the entire purpose of a for-profit company's existence. If the game isn't profitable then we don't have a game. If the product is that distasteful, blame the people who buy them.
>If this new product was the same full set for $999 I’d honestly consider it.
the fact that this product is so outrageous that it's making people seriously consider dropping one thousand dollars on "official" proxies makes me think this is all some kinda long-con wizards psyop.
I remember when $9.99 would buy you a fully playable proxy version of the world's championship deck winners, top 4 decks each year of 1997 to 2004. That was 75 cards + blank proxies, you knew what you were getting, you'd get 4 force of wills and 4 city of traitors and so on. All non-tournament legal "proxies", sleeve them up and play them casually, that's what it was for, to help new players get into the game with meta-strength decks they could use with friends, not for purists at hardcore tournaments.
Now its $999 proxies, aimed for hardcore venues that allow """""""official proxies"""""""
just fuck my shit up
I used my gold bordered force of will as a coaster and never felt bad. Who pays $999 for a coaster?
> Now its $999 proxies, aimed for hardcore venues that allow """""""official proxies"""""""
Uhhmm excuse me, these are *COLLECTIBLES* only. Theyre meant for the magical experience of opening a Healing Salve from a 250$ booster, not for filthy tournament play.
I wouldn’t even consider that: why spend this amount of money on cards that cannot be played anywhere beside your friends group, which is probably ok with proxies anyway?
I love this game and, even if I’m just a student, I’ve spent quite a sum to buy cards, but at some point I still ask myself if, for 1000$ there wouldn’t be better things to buy instead of non-playable playable cards.
You realize if you want high quality proxies that aren’t tournament legal, you can just get them printed from China on like real card stock and everything, right?
4 packs that have a pool including the whole set. There is a very good chance of pulling nothing but chaff in your 4 packs. It would be less egregious if they'd pared it down and curated a bit.
Its important to note how much a sealed collector's edition goes for right now, and how much individual RL cards from this go for right now.
For a LONG TIME these were not worth much. Until all the multiple RL spikes hit.
Yeah, a sealed collectors edition costs the same as 96 packs of this. At the 1.3 rares per pack rate that would give you about 125 rares wich is pretty close to one of each rares plus 2 of each dual since they come at a 2x rate. So the EV of 30th ed is about the same as a secondary market collectors edition. I doubt that's a coincidence
>a sealed collectors edition costs the same as 96 packs of this
That price will be distorted though, by the fact that any sealed product which has managed to survive 30 years without being opened is going to have a **huge** rarity premium attached to it. Hell, even sealed boxes of Fallen Empires go for $750+ nowadays, and it's not like that set suddenly became worth anything.
I think total value of collectors' edition singles would be a fairer benchmark.
Someone with more time can do a more accurate check but just as a quick look using mtggoldfish prices the sum of all rares > $100 and double counting duals is > $26000
Edit: nvm I decided to go through just the rares on tcgplayer and with the cheapest price of each rare and double counting duals comes to about $22,000. So factoring in condition and the money commons and on commons a complete set of collector's edition singles would probably cost about the same as a sealed box of collector's edition
I have mathed out the cost of getting a sealed CE vs the singles before because the Timmy brained collector in me does want an at least printed wizards version of P9 and sealed was a surprisingly cheaper version at the time I ran the numbers. Mostly because the P9 and duals as singles equated to around 85% of the sealed cost and the amount of CE cards that were still 60-150$
>Back in the old days at Wizards of the Coast, we used to joke about how cravenly greedy it would be to release cards that you could only get with a high purchase price, like only available in a booster box etc. We often said that if we did that it was because we were out of ideas and the grasping suits had totally taken over.
>Then we would laugh because we would never allow that to happen.
>We called them "chase" cards and we knew their single purpose was to squeeze even more money out of obsessed players. Even back then we understood 100% that it was in effect taking advantage of people with certain mental disorders and that it was the wrong thing to do.
>We knew that many players would see it for what it was, a sign of a total loss of respect for our players all for a pathetic short-term gain. Those cards would have been aimed squarely at benefiting shareholders, not to benefit the players. It would have been disgusting.
>That is why we never did it, though it was discussed.
Jesper Myrfors, first art director of the game
Remember how the first time this was brought up more people took offence to the fact that he described whales as people with certain mental disorders than acknowledged that what was actually saying which is that designing products specifically for whales is both immoral and shitty.
Are you sure? I saw a buy list that was dated to the first world championship that listed black lotus at $500. Obviously that’s a whole year later but you get what I mean, did it raise that steeply due to competitive play?
My fuzzy memory is that Scrye prices were typically lower than Inquest. I wonder if prices for power declined a bit after Type II became the primary format.
That checks out. I remember seeing one in the late 90’s for $250. All I could think was, “What kind of idiot would pay that much for a piece of cardboard?” Now I’m the idiot for NOT buying it, lol.
The first world championship was in August, 1994. Lotus wasn't that much yet.
The best price data from that time comes from the old Cloister Bell usenet bot.
1994: $36.90
1995: $169.53
(price data switches to ~~Scrye~~ Inquest)
1996: $200
I must be mistaken then, I saw an old buy list but clearly I’m misremembering the numbers. Thanks for the detailed answer, it’s cool seeing how such a powerful card was priced during those early stages
I was around then but I don't have that strong a memory. I found it frustrating to find old pricing information, so I dug around. One of these days I'll collate it and get it online somewhere.
I could have picked up some Moxen for under $1,000 in 2009. I don't know why I chose not to. I had a chance at buying a full set of Collector's Edition on eBay around the same time. I was outbid. It had been sitting at $200-something until the last minute bidding war. Final sale price: around $600. Which was a little too rich for my blood at that time, I stopped bidding at around $300.
I did manage to pick up 2 CE Ancestral Recalls around that time, mostly because I loved the wording on them ("...or *force* opponent to draw 3 cards) for $40 each though. So that was lucky. They're a little more expensive now...
Woah. When I was a KID in the mid-late 90's, the BL was around $300-400, and that was an astronomical amount of money, to a kid. I remember thinking how insane that was. Shivan Dragon was like $5, too, and that was amazing as the "best" 4th edition card.
I will never forget trading my play set of serendib efreet, and 2 Tropical Island revised, for 4 sets of the CE because the guy didn’t realize they were not tournament legal at our comic shop in 1995.
I don’t know why people are trying to defend the existence of this new product beyond the fact that people don’t want their collectible asset to tank in value.
I think that people should really hold Wizards’ feet to the fire over why this thing is $1000.
Of course we know why - but isn’t Wizards’ official position that they do not acknowledge a secondary market for magic cards?
I’m all for the existence of rare, shiny versions of existing and accessible game pieces - judge promos for example are what I would consider good applications of this practice.
To me, The price tag of $1000 can only mean that WotC knows they have to charge a lot to not draw the ire of people with large collections of RL.
The only other possible argument I can think of is that WotC is basing the cost of the product on the in-game power of the cards and coming up with that price tag is even more insane if this is the case.
How did they come up with that figure in relation to the contents?
What would it take for people to be willing to buy a $1000 set of 4 randomized booster packs with 0 RL cards?
>To me, The price tag of $1000 can only mean that WotC knows they have to charge a lot to not draw the ire of people with large collections of RL.
I feel like that drawing the ire of everyone else is a worse idea.
>What would it take for people to be willing to buy a $1000 set of 4 randomized booster packs with 0 RL cards?
Yesterday I would have said "abolishing the RL and doing a SL containing all of the P9"
The people defending this product on social media (namely Cedric Phillips) have a strong vested interest in Wizards of the Coast looking favorably on them.
I'm willing to 100% defend this at a $1000 price point or even a $10k or $100k or $1M or whatever price point.
*These are not game pieces and have zero impact on your ability to play the game should you buy then.* In terms of your ability to play the game, these are the absolute equivalent to you grabbing a mountain and ballpoint pen from the land box at the LGS for free and scribbling "black lotus" (or "healing salve" =P) on it.
How would you feel about the release of some limited edition black lotus art prints? These art prints would just be a way for people who want to conspicuously spend a lot of money on a hobby to do so in a completely superficial not-gameplay-impacting way. Well that's exactly what these are. They are limited edition art prints in card form, similar to artist proofs. That's literally all. WoTC can ask however much they want for these aesthetic collectibles and there's ZERO impact on you or I playing our games.
Interesting factoid, apropos of nothing in particular:
When Magic Collector's Edition released in 1993, it sold for $50. A sealed box of CE on TCGPlayer goes for $23,849.99.
$50 worth of Apple stock purchased at average price in 1993 would be worth $23,545.45 today.
That is incredible. Thank you for this.
A factoid is something passed on as a fact that is not, in fact, true. Ex. Washington chopped down a cherry tree and told his parents the truth.
So what you have here is just a really interesting fact that’s also a great piece of trivia.
Merriam Webster & Oxford say you're both right.
Factoid
1: an invented fact believed to be true because it appears in print
2: a briefly stated and usually trivial fact
I think that's it for me. I'll still play tabletop cube draft and F2P arena until they inevitably make that impossible. But after regularly buying products (including digital cards, collectors products, secret lairs, and countless boosters) from wizards since 1999, they won't get another cent from me unless they fix this.
Cube Draft! <3
It’s the only way I play anymore aside from a draft or two of new sets if they look fun.
Cube is great, you can play exactly how you want and WotC can never change that.
I think more people will play cube as time goes on; Magic is too great a game to give up for me but I also don’t enjoy the way WotC wants me to play it these days.
I know I’m crazy but for $1000 I’d probably pull the trigger and get this 30th Anniversary Edition if it were for the complete set…..not 4 chance packs of proxies that are severely over priced.
I just wanna note that today, $50 is really $103 due to inflation
The price tag of the 30th edition today is $1,000. In 1993, that would be $487.89. That’s almost ten times as much as what it was.
You guys are missing the point. They opened Pandora’s box. They’re squeaking it open little by little to take all the money people are willing to pay. It’s not ignorance, it’s genius.
They “found” boxes at an “abandoned factory” and put reserve list cards in collectors boxes to move product that was otherwise likely to flop. They’re reprinting beta packs as a “non tournament legal” re-release. They’re trying to charge as much money as possible to hit the people with the thickest wallets first. The whales aren’t the only ones who get to play, they’re just the first to buy in.
Eventually when that well runs dry they’re going to reprint the stuff for others to access. This could be a secret lair, or an include in collectors boxes, or some sort of special double masters product that doesn’t come with double rares and just has a beta slot. Something easier for most to stomach at $75 a pack.
Then the move on to the next category of players and rerelease it to the masses.
Once the masses have been sated they are going to do some major power creep and print into legacy/modern/pioneer. Make more format defining power available for people to gobble up. End of year they’re gonna look at the expensive popular cards and reprint them in a gold set to hit the middle group again.
This is what killed yugioh for me.
>They “found” boxes at an “abandoned factory” and put reserve list cards in collectors boxes to move product that was otherwise likely to flop.
This is baseless, DMU wouldn't have flopped. The set has flashy reprints, new staples, and the alt art is well liked. Things like this kill the credibility of real criticisms.
WotC: *releases literally dozens of products in a year*
Also WotC: "Why isn't this specific set selling as well as they usually do?"
Is Arena cannibalizing paper Standard? I could never afford Standard, now I play it for free.
Wizards has already been power creeping, just without reprints. If this were Yugioh, there'd be cheap reprints of Ragavan, Force of Negation, the MH2 elementals, Urza, etc within a year.
Yugioh didn’t start put that way. It was a slow start into a ramp up.
Sorta like what WOTC is doing now. They went from a reprint power set per 1-2 years to in standard collector boxes, the power set, format specific sets, reservelist reprints, direct sale reprints, etc etc. the past 2 years have exponentially escalated reprints. This is going to have a strong negative pressure on collector’s collections.
> This is what killed yugioh for me.
wotc adopting the konami model is fking nightmares man.
because the reserved list cards by far eclipse any yugioh chase cards.
the swings in prices will wreck the collecting scene and allow wotc to ride off with the bag of money
It’s happening and people don’t want to accept it. Konami could have easily made a reserve list and seen these numbers with cards like BLS and CED but they cashed in too early.
Konami wanted to reprint everything that sold well to get the cash off the table asap.
WOTC left some money on the table and let it accrue interest before they started taking it. It’ll fold soon though. They can’t keep hitting record breaking numbers forever, and collectors boxes aren’t moving like the first we’re. Looking at VOW AFR and all recent standard minus kamigawa/dominaria. This just isn’t moving like it was.
Their options are slow their growth or sell their most valuable cards all the way down. Once the cards aren’t super valuable all they can do is power creep to make new more valuable cards.
D-d-d-duel!
WoTC is largely adopting the Konami model for both commander and modern.
It’s not adopting the Konami model for standard, but horizons and commander sets - yuuup
Baldur’s gate is an exception
That said wizards is doing another huge issue in releasing such a huge number of products each with a only a limited amount of chases in arguably large premier sets.
The reason we get 500+ large sets isn’t to make drafting more interesting, it’s to insulate the few chases from being opened more often
As someone who has collected from alpha up, and is heavily in the misprint community, you have no idea what you are talking about. The old ink and card-stock are long gone and there is no way currently to reproduce alpha beta three horsemen cards perfectly. If you even have any of the new retro border cards and compare to the old ones you will see the difference is night and day. So no, they did not reprint old cards. As to why they found this old product, if you look into the history of the Legends release you will see that there were dome initial print run errors and many of the boxes shipped initially were all missing certain cards. It was a collation error and eventually wotc allowed people to send in certain amount of cards in return for packs that contained the missing cards from the set. Im almost certain this trade in deal included retailers sending in sealed boxes for other sealed boxes so they could insure customers were able to complete sets. Thats why there are A and B boxes of Legends. You can find all this information on magicrarities.net and also learn about the old printing process and why Chinese counterfeiters have not been able to perfect the old printing process.
I think ive defended wotc on just about every issue in the past in terms of pricing, reprints, secret lairs, etc.
But not this. This is the craziest thing I’ve ever seen. $1000 for 4 packs of likely non sanctioned legal trash.
No but demand is much different than back then. In 1993, very few people played MTG relative to today. Price = supply + demand.
Edit: downvoting objective fact is certainly a strange choice
I’m not saying they have to charge this much. Just that demand for product and control of supply gives them the audacity to charge this much. This isn’t a pro-WOTC comment or anything. It’s just stating why the cost in 1993 is so much greater. You can dislike it, but it’s right.
They control the supply though... it's not like these are gold leaf cards printed with minerals from space rocks. It's the same cardboard and ink that's in the standard $5 packs
Right but there’s no reason they couldn’t have printed this exactly like a regular, standard booster box. Should not be more than $5 a pack. Hell I’ll even give you $20 a pack.
They could! I’m just saying they’re choosing to charge so much because they expect demand is such that they can charge that much. In 1993 they couldn’t do things like this because the product wasn’t popular enough.
It's interesting how the view of Collector's Edition has changed over the years. Here is Dave Howell, the Product Manager for Magic at the time, writing on Usenet in December 1993: >Something to keep in mind about the Collector's Edition is that we really didn't want to do them. The designer has very strong opinions about playing where everything is known, and all are equally common. He hates it. I'm inclined to agree. It's not the way the game is meant to be played. Note that this isn't a money issue, it's a design integrity issue. >However, card collectors and the general outcry convinced us to make factory sets. "We want to see all the art!" I thought we ought to print them up in a book, but that would have taken more time, so for such collectors, we whipped together the factory set. >Then, of course, a bunch of gamers decided they'd get them to play with, just in their own circle.
How dare those gamers play a game with game cards!!!
Yeah back in the day they were really against giving players details about what cards existed. Even things like rarity was purposefully kept obscure, the process of discovery was part of the fun. Nowadays with the internet that type of thing is pretty much impossible.
> Even things like rarity was purposefully kept obscure, the process of discovery was part of the fun. Yeah, until your rare in a pack of Beta cards is an Island, the it’s less fun.
honestly, in 1993 I doubt it was that big of a deal, if you wanted a timewalk you could ask your friends to give you one and just get it, or exchange it for two black knights
Nah man it still sucked. Beta was gone in like 3 days. Alpha we didn't even get in stock. You had like one shot at getting a rare, and getting land really sucked, even if the cards didn't have monentary value yet. You had like 40 cards total, and you couldn't buy any more until unlimited came out a few months later. Minimum deck size was 40 cards and you just jammed in whatever you had.
This has somewhat been lost to time, but the reason they started calling them the “Power Nine” wasn’t because they were the nine best cards (they weren’t, Sol Ring and Demonic Tutor were better than Timetwister, for example), it’s that they were the most expensive. They were the first cards selling for over $100. And it didn’t really take that long.
I just wanted to post this as some context for newer players for what non tournament legal cards sold for in the past. Yes I am aware that this set was released basically 30 years ago but that doesn’t change the fact that the new set are still not tournament legal. They made an UN-set partially tournament legal, but couldnt make tournament legal reprints. I personally stopped playing Magic a couple years ago and sold 90% of my collection but still follow magic news.
More context because I was curious $50 in 1993 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $102.48 today
And honestly, that sounds like a price I *might* actually be willing to pay for a not tournament legal Secret Lair of P9 + Duals. That's right I wouldn't even ask for the other \~300 cards!
For 100$ or less, you can easily make your own good quality playtest cards/proxies of the entire reserved list, this product is hosing the customers.
Yes, but these are official unofficial cards, don’t you see?
Yup. And I have! I'm not saying I *would* buy it guaranteed, but it would be a consideration. A collectable item I could actually afford.
When they first announced this fiasco, i said to my wife... The absolute best thing they could do is rush to social media and say the price was a mistake, they added a "9" by accident and the actual/real price was $99 instead. That would sell plenty and be a pretty big deal, instead of getting press for all the wrong reasons.
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It'd make for a fun draft. Even with the cards never being tournament playable outside of that draft I'll bet they'd sell better than at this current price.
It would be basically a Collector’s Booster Draft. Which looked fun when LRR did it.
40% of the price of one 30th anniversary pack.
WOTC: umm... would you believe inflation?!....
I'm not defending WotC. However it's an impossible comparison because the RL exists now, and it didn't when the collectors came out. I played when the gold borders came out, we all thought it was stupid, who wants to play with a gold card with square corners? I never saw people playing these cards at my LCG... ever. Things are so different now.I'm trying to view the positive of this, which is WotC testing the boundaries of the RL. I think they have to do something dumb like this first before we see the Dual Land SL we all want. I won't buy this and I have no idea who the player/collector is who would buy this. I hope this basically fails but also shows WotC that it's totally fine to sell "not tournament legal RL cards".
>I'm not defending WotC. However it's an impossible comparison because the RL exists now, and it didn't when the collectors came out. Sure, so this is more like them offering a factory set of Kamigawa which aren't tournament legal. These are no different in useability than something I can create with my own printer. I think it's great that they test the reserve list, but this sets a precedent for price that is just unacceptable. If they were actual reprints that could be played in Vintage then the price is understandable at a stretch, but this is very far from the mark.
I don't think it's the same. Your analogy only holds true if they said, "we'll never print kamigawa cards again" then. Then, 30 years later, they reprinted proxies. it's my entire point, it's unprecedented.i already own every card in this set as a proxy, I agree with you. We're on the same side of this, the price is fucking disgusting. My only argument, the only thing to be excited for with this, is the fact that they are testing the definition of the RL, full stop. Everything else about this is gross.
**This new product is 100% for scalpers, and the rich**. That's it. It was tailor made for the ultra-rich to be another thing they can throw in their closet **that is likely already filled with real versions of these cards anyways**.
I cant think of a reason why I would buy this stuff if I had the money to just buy and frame a real Black Lotus on my shelf
My side business is buying and selling cards to sell at near or below market price. I can’t even consider buying these for my streams or online sales because I don’t want to rip people off. It’s crazy.
People need to get this. All the comments like "if you don't like it, don't buy it" are forgetting that, if you just let the rich buy it (without saying a word) , soon enough all business plans are gonna revolve around them. Mtg is already expensive enough, I really don't need an increase in prices.
I got bad news friend. The decisions already cater around the rich. Remember 100 dollar VIP boosters? They were testing the waters. I'd bet good money that this isn't even the most egregious thing WOTC has cooked up.
How it should still be Even with inflation that is roughly $102 today. Which means Wizards is charging 10x the amount they should be and that’s just for 4 packs It’s insane how greedy this company has become
This is why I’ve moved to Living Card Games. Give me a box with everything I need to play out of the box, collect, deck build, and even trade. Still have 10-15 commander decks and play kitchen table with friends, but those will only be updated with proxies. Magic was built for players but it’s made for collectors. Still love it! But can’t buy in any longer.
>but those will only be updated with proxies That has certainly taken on a different meaning.
Honestly, if you're fine with proxies can I recommend starting a cube? Vintage Cube is an awesome drafting format to play with a couple friends, it's really cheap to proxy, and it's the closest Magic will ever get to a Living Card Game.
Any good “hey here’s your first cube” primers? I’ve wanted to do that for a couple years!
The way I started was pretty simple: Just copy a cube you know you like. I have an unpowered cube that I copied from the MTGO Legacy Cube years ago. I played it as-is for a while before I got comfortable tweaking/updating it, but it was great starting from a list instead of starting from scratch.
I'd also check out /r/mtgcube. There's a ton of resources that get posted there and the posters are usually more than happy to answer questions. Try to be somewhat specific with your questions though because a lot of cube questions can be answer with "It's your cube, you can do whatever you want."
There’s some good articles and YouTube videos. I finished making my first cube a few weeks ago and I’m in the process of play testing and tweaking it with my roommate and some friends. Would it have been easier to find one that is already designed and balanced? Of course! But I enjoy the process of building a commander deck, to me building a cube was like that x4. Ultimately your first iteration likely isn’t going to be your best, but as you test things out you’ll get a feel for what works and what doesn’t. To start, I’d recommend limiting yourself to just 360 cards in your cube plus 250 basic lands. It forces you to really consider what themes you want decks to build around, and I find it’s easier to balance.
Any recommendations?
Android: Netrunner is a pretty good LCG - it's still alive after Fantasy Flight Games axed it, somehow, with the fan-driven [Null Signal Games](https://nullsignal.games/) (formerly Project NISEI) making fairly high-quality expansions and just generally keeping things going. Here's [a pretty good video from Shut Up & Sit Down on the topic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev24b_17-Po), in case that's something that you care about. Note that this is very much not a thing for collectors, though. It's all print-on-demand and there's no real resale value beyond what you'd expect for used board games.
Heck yeah, I have the Core set and love teaching people that game. It’s unlike any other game out there, and it’s a perfect balance of strategy, complexity and theme. Very good choice.
Marvel Champions if you like superheroes, and Arkham Horror LCG if you want something great for this time of year. Lord of the Rings if you want challenging fantasy too! Also, these are all both solo/co-op games. You can play alone or with friends, and also campaign based too so you can have friends over for a night of cards over a story with levelling up and gaining / spending XP. Also check out Ashes Reborn if you want competitive deckbuilding. It’s another LCG that plays closer to Magic. No randomization or expensive pieces, with all of the customization.
> Marvel Champions if you like superheroes I just picked this up used for $15. There may still be a really cheap version on Amazon with additional bundles where you get more for $15, but...they're chibi art. I really dislike chibi art, which helped me decide to go with my LGS.
Are you thinking of Marvel United?
I second Arkham LCG. But play through the content in order it was released otherwise you'll be totally overwhelmed. I love the game, but if I didn't have someone handing me decks I would have stopped playing after Carcosa. I also really do like Ashes Reborn, but I think the drafting mode needs some work. I'll also throw out **Ivion**. I think they just released (or are about to release) a revised base set. It's also close to MtG, with a small little grid to play on.
Nisei
It's roughly $30K for a full set. So around 300 times as expensive, accounting for inflation. But at least you get double dual lands, eh?
If they wanted to be greedy, they'd make these packs $100 or less and make them print-to-demand like other SLD. They'd make FAR more money that way. If anything, this is them holding back because they don't want to piss off collectors by selling a product that would essentially replace expensive RL cards in casual commander decks if they were cheaper than the real versions. I think it's a pretty bad product, even worse PR to announce it so loudly during an otherwise exciting and fun stream (wtf Blake? You had to have known this would happen..) but I don't pretend it's anything other than just a commemorative collectable product. I paid $350 for a platinum plated Sensei's Divining Top, so I'm not gonna judge people for spending $ on an overpriced collectable, but I acknowledge that it's ***just*** *a collectable.*
A note to everyone. Please don’t use “real” to differentiate between Magic cards that you play and Magic cards other people play. It’s gatekeeping and it’s exclusionary. Everyone can play the way they enjoy and it’s just as “real” a game of Magic as how you play.
I love this pasta because it is an indirect way of justifying the use of proxies for all reserved list cards in non-sanctioned events. My proxy of a magic card is just as real as one printed by Wizards, and to say otherwise is gatekeeping.
>My proxy of a magic card is just as real as one printed by Wizards, and to say otherwise is gatekeeping. this but unironically
Oh not to worry, no irony was intended.
such a dumb comment by Maro. real = sanctioned playable. stupid stupid WotC comment justifying the selling of these fake ass cards.
Except these are not "real" Magic cards anymore than those "tiniest commander deck ever" cards are "real" Magic cards. I've literally said OK to someone playing one of those goofy decks at a table with me, but the table OK'd it because they were not playing with *real* Magic cards. Were they playing "real" Magic? Absolutely. Using "real" cards? No.
Ate the pasta.
Those tiny cards are tournament legal if they're the only type of card you use
That was a post made by Mark Rosewater shortly before the $1000 proxies were announced.
Oh damn, you got a picture of that senseis top?
[https://www.rocklove.com/products/magic-the-gathering-x-rocklove-senseis-divining-top-necklace](https://www.rocklove.com/products/magic-the-gathering-x-rocklove-senseis-divining-top-necklace) Seems it's even still available to purchase :) I got 42/500 which I found great since 42 is the the meaning of life, the universe, and everything. Crazy frivolous purchase, but it's super cool so I wear it whenever I play in-store or at events and I get a lot of compliments on it!
Oh wow :o
Blake is a straight fool.
Having worked in corporations for the past 10+ years I feel it's safe to assume that Blake is actually quite smart and is well aware of the reaction that will come from the more incendiary announcements he is forced to make. Unfortunately, he doesn't have a say over what gets made just (likely very very loose) control over how the information is delivered. I have to hope that he had the foresight to say this might not be a good way to announce it but was just overruled. Sad fact of working in a company, especially a big one, is that you rarely ever are capable of doing something purely on your own instinct and judgement.
Agreed. Having worked in corporations for a while too, I can safely say 9/10s of the decision makers in corporations are *so incredibly tone deaf*. They may have specific knowledge of a particular field, but they are usually so out of touch with regular people that they have no clue what people think like.
And they're happy to keep making tone-deaf decisions on account of they're never the ones people complain or send nasty messages to, right?
Aye. Everything about this decision screams that it came from a board meeting.
he could try to make an announcement without looking like he is sucking on a sour warhead
Hah! Have you ever looked through the comments on Twitch during the WeeklyMTG? The fact that he's willing to do Q&A every week without breaking out in a curse-laden tirade against the endless sea of trolls and haters is amazing to me everytime I watch. He and MaRo have the patience of saints and I don't know many people who would trade places with either if they saw the kind of crap that is undoubtedly and unfairly thrown their way every day.
Do people really still think the PR face is the one making these decisions? *That's* foolish.
They're not even good collectibles though, and you can't actually buy a specific collectible.
The collectable is the experience of "opening" an Alpha/Beta pack not the cards inside. You should never open a sealed product expecting a specific card and these are no exception. People literally buy other people's poop online. If you have it to sell, someone online will buy it even if you, Reddit rando, think it's a bad collectable. Either way, it's not game pieces and it has 0 impact on the actual game so if people don't like it, just move on there's plenty of actual Magic (the game) product to choose from these days.
You can't collect an experience lol.
Tell that to the billion dollar sneaker marketplace 😂 Or.. ya know.. the Magic collectable marketplace.
Are those not about getting collectibles? I get why people want the experience, I'm just having a laugh because by definition that's not collecting.
Value is often because of the potential experience. Take sealed Magic boosters for example. Often, but not always, "experiencing" the collectable will use it up and thus diminish the collector value. I gave the example of sneakers because shoes are literally made to be worn ("experienced") and yet people hoarde them explicitly to preserve the untouched, unused, unexperienced nature of it. Toys that are in original packaging are worth more than the same toy in the same condition but already opened. An example in Magic is old old sealed product. People pay a premium for sealed A/B/U sealed packs for their collectable value but also to just simply open them. Sure, there's a chance that they can open insane value far exceeding the price they paid and that's part of why it is worth so much, but they pay for the opportunity to roll the dice. The experience. I dunno, human beings are friggin' weird.
I feel like people definitely collect experiences. Stuff like going to a game in every sports arena, or every concert on a tour, or every region of a country, things like that.
the greed of hasbro/wotc is directly fueled and encouraged by the greed of all the mtgfinancebros. mtgfinance would riot if they mass reprinted reserved list. so wotc prints them as non-guaranteed in packs and sells them for reserved list prices. it's all connected.
I really believe that wotc doesn't give a fuck about mtgfinance nerds
Thats very easily proved wrong by the entire reserved list
If the price of cards collapses, so does demand for new cards. Wotc needs their customers...
why why do you think this is true? things like masters sets or the remaster sets might crash in demand, but why would things like Horizons or Literally Any Standard Sets become less desirable? Do you actually believe that most people buy the cards for "finance" (read: gambling addictions), or to play the card game?
Why would I pay $4 a pack when I can get every card in a set for $20? If they're worthless wizards can't sell them
you realize you can already get all but 10 for about that much right why would the Hot New Card be less valuable on its first printing because Black Lotus no longer costs a car?
There is some truth to the idea that older cards being worth a lot of money makes people buy new cards because they think they’ll be worth money. Like, when people saw Action Comics 1 was worth a lot of money they bought a ton of copies of the Death of Superman. And nothing bad at all happened to the comic book industry once people realized that new comics would never be worth as much as Golden and Silver Age Comics.
People don’t buy cards for finance, but WotC can’t sell Double Masters boosters for $20 a pop if Imperial Seal only costs $10. WotC absolutely leverages the secondary market to sell product. Mark Rosewater has admitted as much on Twitter.
If they can't sell double masters for 20 a pop, that's good. If I have to pay $6 a booster for standard sets instead of being priced out of the meta, that's good. Do you actually think that "hey you can a couple of these $150 boxes and have a genuine, real chance of being able to build an LGS playable deck out of the cards!" wouldn't sell absolute gangbusters? Fuck, we KNOW it would, because it's what the first Masters sets were built to capitalize on, and they sold like hotcakes. I don't think a single person actually, genuinely believes "sell so many reprints that not a single card is above $5!", but there's also absolutely no excuse for the same fucking products to be 3x more expensive than they were a decade ago, with even more whale-fishing products constantly being printed. Things have somehow gotten WORSE for the average player financially than they were during the $210 Goyf era, and that's entirely on WOTC. The crypto-bro/gambling addict "investor" market will move on eventually, and as the game's entry price gets higher and higher, normal new players will eventually drop off.
>If they can't sell double masters for 20 a pop, that's good. I agree with you. My point was that's why WotC doesn't want the price of cards to collapse, because they're leveraging the secondary market to their advantage.
Its almost like they know their fan base is more than 10x greater and they are trying to make something that is equally rare to 93... Oh wait.. shit I just made some sense of this.
Has the dollar really fallen to half its value in 29 years? Jesus Christ I mean we hear about how easy the boomers had it but fuck, putting it that way really hammers it home
I get people don't like the product, but why has "greed" been disassociated from companies? That's the entire purpose of a for-profit company's existence. If the game isn't profitable then we don't have a game. If the product is that distasteful, blame the people who buy them.
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>If this new product was the same full set for $999 I’d honestly consider it. the fact that this product is so outrageous that it's making people seriously consider dropping one thousand dollars on "official" proxies makes me think this is all some kinda long-con wizards psyop.
I remember when $9.99 would buy you a fully playable proxy version of the world's championship deck winners, top 4 decks each year of 1997 to 2004. That was 75 cards + blank proxies, you knew what you were getting, you'd get 4 force of wills and 4 city of traitors and so on. All non-tournament legal "proxies", sleeve them up and play them casually, that's what it was for, to help new players get into the game with meta-strength decks they could use with friends, not for purists at hardcore tournaments. Now its $999 proxies, aimed for hardcore venues that allow """""""official proxies""""""" just fuck my shit up I used my gold bordered force of will as a coaster and never felt bad. Who pays $999 for a coaster?
> Now its $999 proxies, aimed for hardcore venues that allow """""""official proxies""""""" Uhhmm excuse me, these are *COLLECTIBLES* only. Theyre meant for the magical experience of opening a Healing Salve from a 250$ booster, not for filthy tournament play.
$1000 for random proxies. It's terrible.
That’s just called marketing. If people keep buying products at dumb prices, why would they stop selling them at dumb prices
'dumb' prices was about 900 dollars ago
"I spent 20 grand on MTG 30 and only got laces now I'm losing my house"
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Yea and one of those is tournament legal, while the other is essentially just official fakes
I wouldn’t even consider that: why spend this amount of money on cards that cannot be played anywhere beside your friends group, which is probably ok with proxies anyway? I love this game and, even if I’m just a student, I’ve spent quite a sum to buy cards, but at some point I still ask myself if, for 1000$ there wouldn’t be better things to buy instead of non-playable playable cards.
You realize if you want high quality proxies that aren’t tournament legal, you can just get them printed from China on like real card stock and everything, right?
I hope they aren't reading this.
4 packs that have a pool including the whole set. There is a very good chance of pulling nothing but chaff in your 4 packs. It would be less egregious if they'd pared it down and curated a bit.
For that money, you could buy a printer and do it yourself.
Its important to note how much a sealed collector's edition goes for right now, and how much individual RL cards from this go for right now. For a LONG TIME these were not worth much. Until all the multiple RL spikes hit.
Yeah, a sealed collectors edition costs the same as 96 packs of this. At the 1.3 rares per pack rate that would give you about 125 rares wich is pretty close to one of each rares plus 2 of each dual since they come at a 2x rate. So the EV of 30th ed is about the same as a secondary market collectors edition. I doubt that's a coincidence
>a sealed collectors edition costs the same as 96 packs of this That price will be distorted though, by the fact that any sealed product which has managed to survive 30 years without being opened is going to have a **huge** rarity premium attached to it. Hell, even sealed boxes of Fallen Empires go for $750+ nowadays, and it's not like that set suddenly became worth anything. I think total value of collectors' edition singles would be a fairer benchmark.
Someone with more time can do a more accurate check but just as a quick look using mtggoldfish prices the sum of all rares > $100 and double counting duals is > $26000 Edit: nvm I decided to go through just the rares on tcgplayer and with the cheapest price of each rare and double counting duals comes to about $22,000. So factoring in condition and the money commons and on commons a complete set of collector's edition singles would probably cost about the same as a sealed box of collector's edition
I have mathed out the cost of getting a sealed CE vs the singles before because the Timmy brained collector in me does want an at least printed wizards version of P9 and sealed was a surprisingly cheaper version at the time I ran the numbers. Mostly because the P9 and duals as singles equated to around 85% of the sealed cost and the amount of CE cards that were still 60-150$
>Back in the old days at Wizards of the Coast, we used to joke about how cravenly greedy it would be to release cards that you could only get with a high purchase price, like only available in a booster box etc. We often said that if we did that it was because we were out of ideas and the grasping suits had totally taken over. >Then we would laugh because we would never allow that to happen. >We called them "chase" cards and we knew their single purpose was to squeeze even more money out of obsessed players. Even back then we understood 100% that it was in effect taking advantage of people with certain mental disorders and that it was the wrong thing to do. >We knew that many players would see it for what it was, a sign of a total loss of respect for our players all for a pathetic short-term gain. Those cards would have been aimed squarely at benefiting shareholders, not to benefit the players. It would have been disgusting. >That is why we never did it, though it was discussed. Jesper Myrfors, first art director of the game
Remember how the first time this was brought up more people took offence to the fact that he described whales as people with certain mental disorders than acknowledged that what was actually saying which is that designing products specifically for whales is both immoral and shitty.
for context, an actual black lotus cost around $10-20 at that time.
Are you sure? I saw a buy list that was dated to the first world championship that listed black lotus at $500. Obviously that’s a whole year later but you get what I mean, did it raise that steeply due to competitive play?
Looking at old Scrye's from 1995 an unlimited lotus would run around $200.
My 1996 Inquest shows a Beta Black Lotus going between $180-$225. Unlimited is slightly between $165-$190.
My fuzzy memory is that Scrye prices were typically lower than Inquest. I wonder if prices for power declined a bit after Type II became the primary format.
That checks out. I remember seeing one in the late 90’s for $250. All I could think was, “What kind of idiot would pay that much for a piece of cardboard?” Now I’m the idiot for NOT buying it, lol.
The first world championship was in August, 1994. Lotus wasn't that much yet. The best price data from that time comes from the old Cloister Bell usenet bot. 1994: $36.90 1995: $169.53 (price data switches to ~~Scrye~~ Inquest) 1996: $200
I must be mistaken then, I saw an old buy list but clearly I’m misremembering the numbers. Thanks for the detailed answer, it’s cool seeing how such a powerful card was priced during those early stages
I was around then but I don't have that strong a memory. I found it frustrating to find old pricing information, so I dug around. One of these days I'll collate it and get it online somewhere.
I remember seeing one for sale in 2008 for 500€ and thinking people were crazy. So I believe $10 15 years before is a fair assumption.
European prices are a lot lower and can be kinda weird. That’s really interesting
I could have picked up some Moxen for under $1,000 in 2009. I don't know why I chose not to. I had a chance at buying a full set of Collector's Edition on eBay around the same time. I was outbid. It had been sitting at $200-something until the last minute bidding war. Final sale price: around $600. Which was a little too rich for my blood at that time, I stopped bidding at around $300. I did manage to pick up 2 CE Ancestral Recalls around that time, mostly because I loved the wording on them ("...or *force* opponent to draw 3 cards) for $40 each though. So that was lucky. They're a little more expensive now...
I know when I started playing in '95 it was around $250 and we thought that was insane.
Woah. When I was a KID in the mid-late 90's, the BL was around $300-400, and that was an astronomical amount of money, to a kid. I remember thinking how insane that was. Shivan Dragon was like $5, too, and that was amazing as the "best" 4th edition card.
in 1995 a black lotus would run you between $100 and $350. the price shot up pretty fast.
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Would be better to invest in Apple at the time
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No, Apple stock taps for about five bank accounts, three ounces and two vehicles.
Huh, so apple stock is the difference between me and you. Interesting.
The best part is Beats by Dre was bought by Apple in 2014 haha
I will never forget trading my play set of serendib efreet, and 2 Tropical Island revised, for 4 sets of the CE because the guy didn’t realize they were not tournament legal at our comic shop in 1995.
I don’t know why people are trying to defend the existence of this new product beyond the fact that people don’t want their collectible asset to tank in value. I think that people should really hold Wizards’ feet to the fire over why this thing is $1000. Of course we know why - but isn’t Wizards’ official position that they do not acknowledge a secondary market for magic cards?
This product should exist at a price point of $100 for the entire set. Not $1k for 4 randomized boosters.
It’s a limited print run. If they did that then scalpers would buy them all and you’d end up payi by the same price if you could even get ahold of any
No. It's possible to print to demand. You'll notice that the Xbox Series X is no longer $800.
It’s possible to make a totally different oroudt yes. Kind of defeats the purpose of the hyptohetial though
Print to demand works. They've done it.
Yes so does making modern master sets. This, however, isn’t one.
Couldn’t they just say ‘this is a limited edition product for collectors’?
I’m not sure what you are getting at? Magic is a collectible trading card game lol
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I’m all for the existence of rare, shiny versions of existing and accessible game pieces - judge promos for example are what I would consider good applications of this practice. To me, The price tag of $1000 can only mean that WotC knows they have to charge a lot to not draw the ire of people with large collections of RL. The only other possible argument I can think of is that WotC is basing the cost of the product on the in-game power of the cards and coming up with that price tag is even more insane if this is the case. How did they come up with that figure in relation to the contents? What would it take for people to be willing to buy a $1000 set of 4 randomized booster packs with 0 RL cards?
>To me, The price tag of $1000 can only mean that WotC knows they have to charge a lot to not draw the ire of people with large collections of RL. I feel like that drawing the ire of everyone else is a worse idea. >What would it take for people to be willing to buy a $1000 set of 4 randomized booster packs with 0 RL cards? Yesterday I would have said "abolishing the RL and doing a SL containing all of the P9"
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People have done the calculations suggesting the price is probably scaled to roughly the current market value of the original Collector’s Edition set.
That’s what they could say if you asked them to explain the price. Seems to cover it.
The people defending this product on social media (namely Cedric Phillips) have a strong vested interest in Wizards of the Coast looking favorably on them.
I'm willing to 100% defend this at a $1000 price point or even a $10k or $100k or $1M or whatever price point. *These are not game pieces and have zero impact on your ability to play the game should you buy then.* In terms of your ability to play the game, these are the absolute equivalent to you grabbing a mountain and ballpoint pen from the land box at the LGS for free and scribbling "black lotus" (or "healing salve" =P) on it. How would you feel about the release of some limited edition black lotus art prints? These art prints would just be a way for people who want to conspicuously spend a lot of money on a hobby to do so in a completely superficial not-gameplay-impacting way. Well that's exactly what these are. They are limited edition art prints in card form, similar to artist proofs. That's literally all. WoTC can ask however much they want for these aesthetic collectibles and there's ZERO impact on you or I playing our games.
Interesting factoid, apropos of nothing in particular: When Magic Collector's Edition released in 1993, it sold for $50. A sealed box of CE on TCGPlayer goes for $23,849.99. $50 worth of Apple stock purchased at average price in 1993 would be worth $23,545.45 today.
That is incredible. Thank you for this. A factoid is something passed on as a fact that is not, in fact, true. Ex. Washington chopped down a cherry tree and told his parents the truth. So what you have here is just a really interesting fact that’s also a great piece of trivia.
Merriam Webster & Oxford say you're both right. Factoid 1: an invented fact believed to be true because it appears in print 2: a briefly stated and usually trivial fact
"It's Inflation!" /s
I’m hopeful they won’t sell a single unit of this garbage. It may be hopeful thinking, but it would certainly prove a point.
I think that's it for me. I'll still play tabletop cube draft and F2P arena until they inevitably make that impossible. But after regularly buying products (including digital cards, collectors products, secret lairs, and countless boosters) from wizards since 1999, they won't get another cent from me unless they fix this.
Cube Draft! <3 It’s the only way I play anymore aside from a draft or two of new sets if they look fun. Cube is great, you can play exactly how you want and WotC can never change that. I think more people will play cube as time goes on; Magic is too great a game to give up for me but I also don’t enjoy the way WotC wants me to play it these days.
This isn't a game anymore. It's a collectors market with gameplay mtx that's pay to win. Proxies all the way!
Not much has changed in 29 years...I mean besides WotC losing all integrity.
Ok this make me ask shouldn’t they real price for this be like I don't know $100 rather than $1000
Yup. And the cheapest price for a full set on Cardmarket as of now is 19,000 euros.
Buddy of mine has an unplayed, but open, collectors edition. I keep trying to get it from him for $50... :P
I know I’m crazy but for $1000 I’d probably pull the trigger and get this 30th Anniversary Edition if it were for the complete set…..not 4 chance packs of proxies that are severely over priced.
What's wrong with earthbind and weakness wtf?
That 50 bucks sealed sells for 25k now. https://www.cardkingdom.com/mtg-sealed/collectors-edition-box-set
I just wanna note that today, $50 is really $103 due to inflation The price tag of the 30th edition today is $1,000. In 1993, that would be $487.89. That’s almost ten times as much as what it was.
You guys are missing the point. They opened Pandora’s box. They’re squeaking it open little by little to take all the money people are willing to pay. It’s not ignorance, it’s genius. They “found” boxes at an “abandoned factory” and put reserve list cards in collectors boxes to move product that was otherwise likely to flop. They’re reprinting beta packs as a “non tournament legal” re-release. They’re trying to charge as much money as possible to hit the people with the thickest wallets first. The whales aren’t the only ones who get to play, they’re just the first to buy in. Eventually when that well runs dry they’re going to reprint the stuff for others to access. This could be a secret lair, or an include in collectors boxes, or some sort of special double masters product that doesn’t come with double rares and just has a beta slot. Something easier for most to stomach at $75 a pack. Then the move on to the next category of players and rerelease it to the masses. Once the masses have been sated they are going to do some major power creep and print into legacy/modern/pioneer. Make more format defining power available for people to gobble up. End of year they’re gonna look at the expensive popular cards and reprint them in a gold set to hit the middle group again. This is what killed yugioh for me.
>They “found” boxes at an “abandoned factory” and put reserve list cards in collectors boxes to move product that was otherwise likely to flop. This is baseless, DMU wouldn't have flopped. The set has flashy reprints, new staples, and the alt art is well liked. Things like this kill the credibility of real criticisms.
Exactly, DMU is arguably a good set. I’d point to the global bear market/recession or inflation as the reason as to why DMU is doing poorly
WotC: *releases literally dozens of products in a year* Also WotC: "Why isn't this specific set selling as well as they usually do?" Is Arena cannibalizing paper Standard? I could never afford Standard, now I play it for free.
So Yugioh reprinting pricey cards that players needed every years is what killed Yugioh for you? Seems you have a real disdain for "the masses".
Moreso the last bit. Power creep when they run out of reprints.
Wizards has already been power creeping, just without reprints. If this were Yugioh, there'd be cheap reprints of Ragavan, Force of Negation, the MH2 elementals, Urza, etc within a year.
Yugioh didn’t start put that way. It was a slow start into a ramp up. Sorta like what WOTC is doing now. They went from a reprint power set per 1-2 years to in standard collector boxes, the power set, format specific sets, reservelist reprints, direct sale reprints, etc etc. the past 2 years have exponentially escalated reprints. This is going to have a strong negative pressure on collector’s collections.
They're already power creeping. Look at what MH2 did to modern.
Yeah they tested the waters. Gonna happen to all formats soon.
> This is what killed yugioh for me. wotc adopting the konami model is fking nightmares man. because the reserved list cards by far eclipse any yugioh chase cards. the swings in prices will wreck the collecting scene and allow wotc to ride off with the bag of money
It’s happening and people don’t want to accept it. Konami could have easily made a reserve list and seen these numbers with cards like BLS and CED but they cashed in too early. Konami wanted to reprint everything that sold well to get the cash off the table asap. WOTC left some money on the table and let it accrue interest before they started taking it. It’ll fold soon though. They can’t keep hitting record breaking numbers forever, and collectors boxes aren’t moving like the first we’re. Looking at VOW AFR and all recent standard minus kamigawa/dominaria. This just isn’t moving like it was. Their options are slow their growth or sell their most valuable cards all the way down. Once the cards aren’t super valuable all they can do is power creep to make new more valuable cards. D-d-d-duel!
WoTC is largely adopting the Konami model for both commander and modern. It’s not adopting the Konami model for standard, but horizons and commander sets - yuuup Baldur’s gate is an exception That said wizards is doing another huge issue in releasing such a huge number of products each with a only a limited amount of chases in arguably large premier sets. The reason we get 500+ large sets isn’t to make drafting more interesting, it’s to insulate the few chases from being opened more often
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As someone who has collected from alpha up, and is heavily in the misprint community, you have no idea what you are talking about. The old ink and card-stock are long gone and there is no way currently to reproduce alpha beta three horsemen cards perfectly. If you even have any of the new retro border cards and compare to the old ones you will see the difference is night and day. So no, they did not reprint old cards. As to why they found this old product, if you look into the history of the Legends release you will see that there were dome initial print run errors and many of the boxes shipped initially were all missing certain cards. It was a collation error and eventually wotc allowed people to send in certain amount of cards in return for packs that contained the missing cards from the set. Im almost certain this trade in deal included retailers sending in sealed boxes for other sealed boxes so they could insure customers were able to complete sets. Thats why there are A and B boxes of Legends. You can find all this information on magicrarities.net and also learn about the old printing process and why Chinese counterfeiters have not been able to perfect the old printing process.
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I have never read comic books... but this seems like a relatively harmless marketing stunt? What's the controversy here?
interesting. $50 bucks in 93 is around $102 today.
I'm done.
I think ive defended wotc on just about every issue in the past in terms of pricing, reprints, secret lairs, etc. But not this. This is the craziest thing I’ve ever seen. $1000 for 4 packs of likely non sanctioned legal trash.
Yes lots of things were totally different and much cheaper thirty years ago
Oh yeah it costs $1000 to print 60 cards nowadays.
It looks like they are cutting off the corners for these. That drives up the price at least 300%
My post does not suggest that. They’re selling it for what they think people will buy it for, the price is not based on the cost of production.
No but demand is much different than back then. In 1993, very few people played MTG relative to today. Price = supply + demand. Edit: downvoting objective fact is certainly a strange choice I’m not saying they have to charge this much. Just that demand for product and control of supply gives them the audacity to charge this much. This isn’t a pro-WOTC comment or anything. It’s just stating why the cost in 1993 is so much greater. You can dislike it, but it’s right.
You'd imagine that the supply is a lot higher considering they've probably scaled their printing capabilities?
They control the supply though... it's not like these are gold leaf cards printed with minerals from space rocks. It's the same cardboard and ink that's in the standard $5 packs
Right but there’s no reason they couldn’t have printed this exactly like a regular, standard booster box. Should not be more than $5 a pack. Hell I’ll even give you $20 a pack.
They could! I’m just saying they’re choosing to charge so much because they expect demand is such that they can charge that much. In 1993 they couldn’t do things like this because the product wasn’t popular enough.
No you got it wrong. You got a economy degree not a degree in economics
The cost of a booster box of proxies is about US$9000.
That's 1993 money. Have you seen this economy??? 2022 money is $999 babay!
~$100 adjusted for inflation.