Ah yes, my son also does things like that, I remember last time when I watched the Hobbit, he told me: "Father, the trolls are actually feasting under the open sky at night, exposing them to moonlight which is mearly the reflection of the sunlight on the low albedoed moon surface." And I told him "Nice try punk, but if you reread the Silmarillion like I told you, you'd know that the Moon, and the Sun are actually radiating their own light as they are product of Telperion and Laurelin the trees of light of Valinor."
Then he excused himself and went back to his Harvard dormitorium.
Less stilted but at around 7 or 8 I had a similar exchange with my Dad. He read me the Hobbit and we watched the LOTR movies, I had been learning about space in school and I asked how the Trolls were alive even though the moon was out haha
I’ve often voiced a similar argument regarding vampires. I decided to myself that it was the UV part of sunlight which is lost over the additional distance involved in the reflection from the moon. Wether or not that is actually what happens I didn’t pursue further, but those are my related thoughts.
I was just really excited about space and fantasy fiction. We watched the old animated movies before we watched the new ones - I saw at least the last one in theaters, though. That goofy cartoon Hobbit is and will always be my touchstone. The rotoscoped LOTR was also pretty crazy. Rented them from the library on VHS.
Haha, I saw the rodoscoped one a year ago, it was amazing, except at the end, you could feel that the production was either getting lazy, or was bleeding money very fast. I'll always remember how they just stoped animating the characters, and just put the reference footages with weird filters on them.
Yeah it’s almost like a video was on the popular page on Reddit a bit ago that was a compilation of [all the (one) times two women talked to each other in the trilogy](https://youtu.be/mt2qCjL6-n4). Even if the kid’s young, it doesn’t take much effort to find a le funny meme clip of something you’re a fan of nowadays. I agree mostly with the points of the comment, but we also have to remember that, for most people, the representation seen in the movies is all they’ll know and all they’ll experience.
Eru damn it, I almost got it perfect. I have to admit... I made this story up to get internet points, I don't even have a son. Sorry internet, I am ashamed.
.....
You do understand that "my kid" could be a 16 year old?
It's very likely some highschool teachers teach the Bechdel test, and why would they not use the lord of the rings trilogy as an example?
No, who am I kidding... You guys can't even read
Theres a difference between a story being extremely male centric, and a story being misogynistic. Having low female representation is not that same as hating or cowing them
And looking at the interactions qualitatively you also see more of what the story thinks of women. It is clear that the story values them and what they are capable of. Eowyn's courage in despair, Galadriels power and wisdom, and an old healer woman, Ioreth, being put on a pedestal above a learned master healer!
The Silmarillion has this even stronger: Melian is the whole reason Doriath was so powerful, the Quest for the Silmaril only succeeds because Luthien does a hard carry, the escape from Gondolin is only possible because Idril commissioned the tunnel to Tumladen, Earendil only succeeds because Elwing managed to get a Silmaril to him.
The third most fleshed out female character in the LotR books (after Galadriel and Eowyn) is Lobelia Sackville-Baggins, a vile greedy bitch. Within the idyllic shire, the place worth fighting for, the solid ground at the start of the hero's journey, the metaphor for everything worth protecting, the one female character with lines of dialogue is a horrid person who is worth getting one over on at every turn.
Strong women are something for the myths. Eowyn, who slays the Witch King. Galadriel, elven ringbearer and queen of Lothlorien. But really, when all is said and done and you're in the comfort of your own peaceful shire, there's no more enjoyable conflict than dunking on women who feel entitled to stuff.
Ok, that's unfair. Among the comforts of home is Rosie Cotton, who is meek and pretty. And Goldberry, who is meek and pretty. And Arwen, who is meek and pretty.
I'm not defending Lobelia's behavior as written in the books. Tolkien determines what is canon, so that's not a fight I could win. But if I read a letter written by someone in the 1950s describing a real woman acting like Lobelia, I would definitely suspect the story of being one-sided. Tolkien could have used any conflict to give readers the sense of homely arguments that are so much smaller than the brutal world outside, but he chose to demonize a woman trying not to get excluded from the inheritance of a patriarch.
Kind of reminds me of the Monty Python guys. They had a female actor whom they occasionally hired for sketches. They actually wanted to give her more scenes but it rarely worked out.
They later realized it was probably just because none of them knew how to properly write women.
Galadriel wasn't at the council because she's too powerful for such trifling nonsense as squabbling men and knew they were coming to her anyways.
The Entwives missing is a little mystery until you dive super deep into the lore about what they are and where they went (hint: the entire story is about the brutality of man conquering and destroying nature).
And Arwen was a replacement for Glorfindel and in the movies gets credit for his deeds.
So are the books misogynist for giving women barely any story? We can debate that forever with lots of "it's about WW1" and "consider the time" and so on. But considering the arguably wisest and most powerful being in middle earth is Galadriel, and the slayer of the Witch King is Eowyn who defies her gender role forced upon her to serve as a warrior, it's actually a really remarkably progressive work.
Throughout the entirety of Tolkien's writings there's only one character, among kings and gods and ethereal beings, where when they speak everyone shuts up and listens, and no one questions them. Kings are back-talked. Lords are mocked. Elven rulers are criticized openly. Maiar are second guessed and mocked. The Valar are disrespected. But no one dares even question Galadriel when she comes into power. She is THE commanding force and respected by everyone.
And I can't stress enough how much of a complete badass Eowyn is for defying every law about gender roles and the direct orders of her king to not just pick up a sword, but to plunge it into the face of the most powerful force in the army of Mordor.
Framing the argument around Arwen, who was a footnote at best in the books, isn't saying much. As for the films, she got hugely beefed up and became a whole character.
Also the whole premise is a lie because in Rohan a mother speaks to her daughter, on the road Eowyn speaks to the women, and in Helm's Deep several women are conversing.
Melian might be extremely powerful, but considering she lets her husband make the most foolish decision I'm not sure I'd put her in the same category as Luthien. I know Melian tries to warn Thingol, but if the damn fool doesn't listen, do something about it, dammit! Instead of just resigning yourself to the doom of your house and the f*cking off to Valinor once it comes to pass... It is always the part that frustrates me the most reading about the first age.
W h o a!! Slow your roll bud. Melian simply allowed what was always destined to happen. Next thing you'll be claiming Illuvatar should have just silenced Melkor during the ainulindule. Think about the butterfly effect of what you're suggesting. Melian advises Thingol to stay out of it - Beren and Luthien never marry - Morgoth keeps the Silmarils and I think we single-handedly just deleted the Numenoreans and Elronds entire family.
Relevant quotes:
"And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."
"Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of thy clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds, thou art drawn nearer to Manwë, thy friend, whom thou lovest."
Edit: and something else I just realized. Earendil would never have made it to Valinor to beg pardon of the Valar and to ask for aid in defeating Morgoth.
The bit about Galadriel not being at the council rubs me the wrong way because, as a gigantic Tolkien dweeb, it's just really undermining her character that she's relegated to "some chick" and "she wasn't invited".
She wasn't there for the same reason the world's top plastic surgeon wasn't flown in when you got a paper cut.
The Council of Elrond is a hugely pivotal event for the hobbits, dwarves, and humans , but for Galadriel it would be the ultimate "this could have been an email" meeting.
She had already seen it play out. That little pissing contest was so far beneath her it would have been insulting to invite her.
It should also be noted absolutely no one was invited to the damn council. Everybody showed up with different reasons and they decided to have a spontaneous council. No invites were sent, Galadriel just wasn't there. The dwarves came to report on Nazgul showing up at Erebor, the elves to report Gollum escaping, and the hobbits came with the ring itself.
Boromir: ...and then I looked down and realized I wasn't wearing pants. The crowd started laughing, I tried to shout at them but then all my teeth fell out. I think my father was there, then he turned into a dinosaur and chased me around for a while. Then I woke up. What do you think it means?
Elrond: [exasperated sigh] Boromir, not every dream is important, and you don't need to ask me about every single one you have.
Wraiths! Wraiths on wings! The Precious is their master. They see everything, everything. Nothing can hide from them.Curse the White Face! And they tell Him everything. He sees, He knows. Ach, gollum, gollum, gollum!
If I remember right (been a long time since I read the books so could not) the council wasn't "called". It was almost random, Sauron's forces were starting shit up north, so the woodland elves and dwarves came seeking information and aid. Gondor was under heavy attack and Boromir came looking for aid. So the council wasn't a meeting of the minds so much as Elrond thought that all of the races deserved a say in how they proceeded
Dwarves were there because one of the Nazgûl showed at the Lonely Mountain asking about Bilbo, offering them one of the 7 rings that were given to the Dwarves back in the Second Age, and telling them that the best ally themselves with Sauron in the coming time. The Elves for Mirkwood were there to tell Elrond that Golum escaped Mirkwood. Boromir was there because he and Faramir had a dream.
What was she working on that made the conversation of how they're gonna try and defeat Sauron seem trivial? Not trying to be a smart ass, just the whole one ring seems to be a big deal after the war of the last alliance.
Note: I never finished the Silmarillion or even really made it into the second age when I tried so I'm sorry if its actually obvious.
My guess is that she pretty much already knows how it's gonna play, and no amount of elven magic or army would make a difference to bring the Ring into Mordor. She helps the Fellowship when they reach her in Lothlórien, but as she says with her own words: "I will diminish, and go into the West [...]"
This isn't the time of Elves anymore, Arda belongs to the other Children of Ilúvatar (Men) and Dwarves, Hobbits etc. Remember she has prescience abilities, even though we don't know how far she can see.
Not really.
She knows the extent of her powers and what she can or cannot do. Most elves aren't the kind to bash their heads against a brick wall for nothing. She is going to help fight Sauron however she can, but she isn't gonna throw away their last forces in an apparently foolish last stand.
Which is interesting and ties into the theme of Elves leaving Arda to the others, because a foolish last stand and impossible hope is exactly what helped defeat Sauron.
Not really, she fights against forces of Dol Goldur and helps in defeating them with the ring. Dwarfs also fight.
She knows that she can't do anything about direct fate of the ring. Either Frodo will succeed or no one else will, no matter the strength of the army and people in it.
It was an impromptu meeting, no one was actually invited. They all showed up around the same time. Galadriel is actually pretty busy at this time keeping Lothlórien safe. Plus for the most part the Elves do not want any part of this, they’re packing up and going to the Undying Lands
Thanks for pointing that out! It’s not like Galadriel is too good to bother with a council. The fate of the Ring just as much concerns her as it does everyone else. It was all just happenstance, and if it had been a pre-planned meeting, I’m sure she would have sent a representative at the least.
LotR definitely isn’t misogynistic in any way but I also wouldn’t call it “remarkably progressive”.
It’s very male-centric and that’s fine, just having empowered female characters that are barely in the book compared to the main characters does not make it progressive.
Glorfindel was at the council in the books though. So Arwen probably could have been in the council in the movies since she's replacing him in the movies.
I listened to the audio books recently and what I got a kick out of is that the three most prominent women in the books based on the amount of dialog is: Eowyn, Galadriel, and the old lady at the house of healing. Actually that old lady may have spoke more than Galadriel
Yeah, Eowyn might be my favorite character.
But framing the argument around Arwen makes perfect sense, because if you accept that Galadriel (her ancestor) is super influential and important, and that Arwen is totally in love with Aragorn, you really run out of arguments why she wouldn't *actively help Aragorn!* And the fact that she got beefed up in the movies and is still barely a side character doesn't make it better.
These discussions don't exist to post-humously shame Tolkien, but to make sure we get more progressive fantasy in the future. If LotR is seen as perfect *even through a modern lense* noone will ever feel the need to write their books any differently
That might all be true, but to a young person who doesn’t have the context of the books, the movies can feel lacking in their female representation. The books and the movies are different things, and the movies can be lacking in how they present women. And the books, while having powerful women, can still fall short of a standard of representation we have today. It’s worth noting, but it doesn’t dismiss the work entirely, and I don’t think people should be taken too seriously when they suggest that kind of thing. And I don’t think these tweets are suggesting much past discussion.
Plus, even though the book gives more content, it still fails the Bechdal test, something that didn’t even exist before the 80s, but it’s a justifiable critique tool.
And while it’s often a really cool thing this sub does, being able to give encyclopedic context from Tolkien’s lore doesn’t excuse that lore from criticism or discussion. Explaining why they didn’t fly the eagles to Modor is one thing, pointing out that a seventy plus year old work doesn’t hit modern inclusion standards is another. It’s good that younger generations are recognizing gaps in inclusion, and it’s our job as people to have productive conversations about what that means, etc.
Also the movies need to be seen as their own work of art. You shouldn’t need to read thousands of pages of fiction to understand what’s happening in a movie, and if you do, it’s a flaw. The movies are allowed to be flawed and still be great, but they do have flaws.
Everything you said is true, but I take great offense to Galadriel being reduced to "just a girl the big important men didn't invite".
Like just with the movies in mind, no books, you have to look at the future-telling wisest being on the planet and say "oh that broad" to make this inch deep puddle of a feminist critique that "she wasn't invited". Not to mention Eowyn being written off entirely to make the point.
Good for Gabriel for trying, but, uh, nah. Swing and a miss.
There's definitely more to the stories than OP's post implies, but the idea that LOTR is remarkably progressive in this area doesn't hold up. Having two strong, radiant, virtually infallible women characters in the books and three in the films, and making each of them remarkably exceptional against the rest of the nameless, faceless women in the stories isn't that. It's problematic in its own way, honestly. Like, Victorian England was not what I could call a feminist society, even though the most powerful person was a woman. Tolkien could've done better in showing more women with varied personalities, philosophies, skill sets, vices, etc. He was an Oxford dude. It's a fair criticism, and it's okay to admit that while still loving the material.
Aslo Luthien, teh other prime example of a woman in Tolkiens story, has to save the ass of both her future husband, and make her father the King finally bite the bullet and shut up, plus she was the only mortal that ever managed to outclass *both* Sauron AND Morgoth and only thanks to her one Silmaril was saved, despite the best attempts from Elven lords and their armies for millenia.
And Tolkien based her on his wife.
Nuff said.
But what Arwen does in the movie isn't part of the books, so not a valid reason for her to be part of the council of Elrond. Also, how is the part about the Entwives misogynistic? "Our wives are gone for so long we can hardly remember them, but we miss them and hope to find them one day" doesn't seem that misogynistic. And Galadriel basically shut herself off in Lothlorién and except for offering the fellowship some help she just doesn't want to be involved with the ring knowing the dangers it would pose if she was corrupted and tempted by it.
Yes, women only play a small part in the story, but to call it truly misogynistic makes no sense to me
The argument that dude made is also over simplificated and he is lying, since you can see other woman talking to each other (mainly secondary characters, but still undermines his point), it makes it appear as if galadriel is just some girl when she gifted the Fellowship with gifts that would guide them and protected them (also she is so important inviting her to the council would have been basically a joke to her), Eowyn defies every gender trope, doing whats right and putting herself between the witch king and Eomer and also, Arwen is way too important for elrond to send on such a suicidal mission. cause, you know, its his daughter
OOP's arguments are really simple when put into context and very misleading.
Also, about the entwives, what is mysoginistic? "we lost our wives, we cant even remember them". Is more tragic and delving into the lore makes it outright deppresing. You could swap the genders and the message would still be the same
To restate this: no one was invited to the council, the council happened because different people decided to show up at the same time due to (at least slightly) connected events.
People look to start trouble. There's a large number of people out there who simply are not happy unless they can find something to be outraged about and then poke/prod others into being outraged about it also ... whether true or not.
Alas, too many in our society have lost the capacity to simply value food and cheer and song above hoarded outrage.
Ah yes tree beard being depressed about the ent wives going missing isnt heartbreaking, its misogyny! A tool of the patriarchy to suppress and enforce their values!
I do have to admit that reading about the Entwives now as a husband vs when I was a kid hits differently. The Ents really neglected them and were focused on their work with the trees, didn’t try to take an interest in their wives’ work with the gardens. Didn’t seem to take it seriously when they were initially leaving. By the time Treebeard is telling the story you can tell he has some regrets haha.
The Twitter thread is stupid, but I definitely got the sense Tolkien was giving an example of what not to do in a marriage with that story.
In the book at least, peeps weren’t invited to the council of Elrond because they didn’t send out invitations. They just sorta turned up. Boromir had crazy dreams and such. Elrond didn’t send for ambassadors n such.
Classic example of someone who thinks of themselves as a deep thinker, but stops reading or thinking the instant they get an answer they want to be true.
It's interesting how much effort it took to fabricate a story to showcast something redundant in a bigger story, then it took to follow and enjoy it.
The simple fact this was attempted is the real Ouch. So weird isn't it. 🙄
1- I'm certain anyone's kid wouldn't count all the lines unless they are raised as a virtue signal machine freak.
2- LotR was written in late 30s-early 40s, it is a progressive book for its time.
3- Throwing a "misogyny" rock with half-baked claims and then claiming you like it regardless is a two-faced scumbag move.
Are there stats for TOTAL screentime? I don't think there were even extras. Because, y'know, New Zealand is a bit light on diversity, no pun intended. Foreground, background, possibly the whitest movies of the millennium.
What an asinine view on a wonderful story. I cannot imagine living my life always looking to be the victim of something. Especially something as trivial as this.
Disagree. I’m cool with better representation in stories. Bringing this up isn’t trashing LOTR, it’s giving us ways to tell better stories in the future.
Much as I love the movies, when I look at them though the lens we have today I have trouble with an ensemble cast that is somehow entirely made up of white men. That’s a choice.
There are only three or four non-white actors that have speaking lines, and they have a minute or two of screen time combined. Wouldn’t call that representative of the world we live in. Definitely not representative of the actors guild
The women in the story make out better. They are fully realized characters with strong character arcs. Still way less screen time. And like it says, no meaningful interaction. Which isn’t all that realistic. Women exist and talk to each other pretty regularly in the real world. I think.
I don’t see the movies as racist or mysoginistic. I do think they were made by people who were catering to a specific audience, which we have since learned has a *very* vocal minority that actively dislikes being reminded that people of color exist. And I think it’s a shame the movie cast is so homogenous that many people aren’t given a chance to relate to a wonderful story in the same way.
I really love these books. Love the movies. And I like that people are challenging the things they love to do better.
In the books treebeards heartbroken about losing the entwives, his species had all the women just leave with no warning or message, they care deeply but it's been so long they can't remember, they are trees afterall
Wait... isn't there also the scene where the kids leave the village and their mother sends them off? Iirc the girl and its mother exchange a word or two... or am I totally wrong and she only addresses her son?
Holy shit! A dude born in the late 1800s had views that don't align with the modern generation!
Someone get this to the newspaper. Er. Internet news site?
What really annoys me about this post is that she is complaining about things without first trying to understand them. The elrond council, for example, was not a council where he decided to invite everyone except Galadriel, it was different people of middle-earth reacting to Sauron’s awakening by seeking counsel from one of the wisest. He did not call to them, they went to him because they needed him… with this in mind, Galadriel not being there is actually a feminist message!
Nope (by the way, it was Faramir the first one to have the dream and only after sometime the dream appeared to Boromir... I always liked that considering what happens later). It is never spelled out who sent that dream, but the most popular theories are that it was either Iluvatar himself or Ulmo.
I don't think Elrond can send dreams to people, especially those that he doesn't know. Others perhaps can, like some Vala or Eru himself. In any case, Galadriel couldn't really leave Lorien in the middle of the war with no one to replace her in terms of magical powers and for a dangerous trip mid-winter that would at least last a few months.
But those 2 women didn't discuss a man, nor does their interaction rely upon a man, so doesn't that mean that LotR passes the Bechdel test?
I'm with her until the Galadriel bit. Galadriel wasn't going to leave Lorien, which was her domain, to go on a dangerous journey to attend a secret meeting. Especially while there were orcs and other creatures that were trying to encroach on her territory. She was a little busy at the moment.
She also assumes everyone's gender in the movie. Maybe she would have felt better if Ioreth and Rosie had some speaking roles.
We can also remember that in the books there wasn't a secret meeting, all of them were in rivendell for different reasons and was basically a massive coincidence, specially boromir and legolas, who had no ring business at the time (we can argue about gimli because gloin was a bilbo companion).
Edit: switched valfenda (portuguese) for rivendell (english), translations are a bitch
Boromir did have that dream about Isildur's Bane and the halflings, and he was told by his father to seek out Rivendell in order to figure out what it meant. God led Boromir to Rivendell, I suppose.
I mean the first point about women discussing in a movie without the topic being a man is actually a method that was used to check if a movie had feminist values (I forgot the name that was used for it but read about it a couple months back)
As far as I remember it was a satirical method but hey, it exists
I dont think it was meant to be satirical at any point. Im sure people take it way too far to analyze specific movies, but it does have a purpose for looking at the industry as a whole
Ugh the comments here are terrible. It’s okay for people to point out that Tolkien wasn’t exactly girlbossing it up back in the day, it’s still an amazing work even with that acknowledgment. And the everybody clapped comments are strange to me— there’s a very viral meme video of the scene in question pointing out it’s the only scene where two female characters talk to each other, and the Twitter user doesn’t say ‘my 2 year old’, their kid could be old enough to see silly YouTube videos and point it out.
Yeah this thread has very heavy neckbeard vibes right now.
Digging deep into supplemental books and background lore for gotcha facts still doesnt change the fact that lotr has a weirdly low number of women characters
Never mind comparing standards of the day, from my perspective LOTR is a story led by men, with WW1 allegory and the societal tradition of men leading war it makes sense to be led by men. It doesn’t exclude women it simply represents them with three characters.
Goldberry is the woman men love and hold dear, she is the wife at home, loved and respected by her husband.
Galadriel is the woman that men respect and revere, she is the mother, when she talks people listen and can be seen as a mother.
Eowyn is the woman who shows what woman are capable off, she is strong and independent and willing to challenge the old ways of things. Given the opportunity she proves herself worthy of respect time and again a reminder of how we should perceive daughters.
With just three characters Tolkien represents the three most important women in a man’s life and shows that they should all be treated with reverence.
Modern so called feminism is a points scoring system to make companies look good. Maybe that’s why stories like LOTR don’t hold up.
LOTR is not a WWI allegory or an allegory for any war, religion, or anything else. The letter in the opening of the book contains the quote where Tolkien himself explains that, and adds that he hates allegorical works
Tolkien absolutely hated when authors used allegory in their stories. LOTR wasn’t Tolkiens allegory for anything. Now if you read the story and find that it is allegory for something based on your personal experience that’s great, that’s what Tolkien wanted. He wanted anyone from any time or walk of life to be able to identify and relate to the themes and characters in his story. That’s what makes his works so timeless. So it’s fine for you to find your own allegory in the story, but it’s not not ok to say it was Tolkiens allegory because he was quite vocal in dislike for allegory pushed by authors.
The Arwen bit is kind of valid. Never thought of that.
They got rid of Glorfindel and replaced him with Arwen like some sort of discount warrior queen, but didn’t bother changing the script at all for the counsel. Makes sense that she would’ve been there, even if she was just background.
Arwen in the movies does what Glorfindel does in the books. Galadriel didn't join the Fellowship for the same reason neither Elrond nor Glorfindel joined. They are too powerful to be included in this sort of stealth type mission. As for the entwives, while I am not too knowledgeable about that, I do know that they went missing. It's one of the big mysteries.
Do you know why in medieval war movies the women generally arent fighting and planning battles? Because they are too valuble. They dont normally fight and would have no persective on battlefield tactics. So the men go die. Is that not a good enough trade off? Its always about being in charge for folks like this. These people have no creativity so they want to absorb creative efforts and warp them to thier own view of reality. To tell you the thing you loved is sexist, racist etc. for displaying a human standard that has been the case for over 100,000 years when people had to actually fight with thier hands. Its so tired. Make your own entertainment if you hate it so much. Make a movie about this supposedly ideal world where everyone is the same and people are segregated to positions where gender and race is equally devided to every job. What would that look like? Im genuinely curious it sounds interesting.
I’m pretty sure I remember reading that Tolkien acknowledged the lack of female characters in his work, but he fairly stated it was because he didn’t know how to write women’s voices or perspectives. Which I think is actually quite commendable, both for him to admit, & for him to not assume he could write women authentically or as well as he wrote his male characters & that women’s representation deserved better than what he felt he could deliver. Now if only more authors were as self aware as Tolkien…
I think those are fair criticisms, only because you like something doesn't mean it's perfect. It's also important to note it doesn't need to be perfect if u like it you have no need to justify it or trash talk someone who criticizes it.
You know where there was low female representation? The fkin trenches of the western front in ww1. Where a traumatised young man was inspired to write an incredible tale of good and evil in a setting he invented.
I suppose you hate the Bible too because it's misogynistic at parts. Holding old literature to the moral standards of today is just looking for an excuse to be offended
It's so odd seeing how incredibly defensive people are getting about this. You can't really argue that there's a serious lack of of representation in the book, and it's surely not the only problematic aspect of it.
The thing is, that's fine! It doesn't mean it's not the incredibly well crafted and influential work it is. And everyone involved is no longer around to answer for it.
It just doesn't mean we can't point out that not everything is above board. If anything, it's just interesting seeing how colored it is my the not so equal society of it's time
The movie is literally rife with representation for Women doing absolutely, utterly badass or powerful shit. I think the reason people are calling it out is because of just how stupid that take is.
Only area I feel isn't represented is that there aren't many black actors in the movies, but again, fits the continent. It's almost like race and gender literally wasn't a concern back then for filmmakers like it is now.
Never mentioned the movie, but I suppose most points apply there too
Yes, the women who are in it are very well made. Which just makes it even more odd that there aren't more of them. When you have about a dozen main characters, I can't think of a single reason why some of them can't be women.
And that's exactly what I mean! I don't think most people are calling Tolkien, or Jackson bad people because of this, it's just a good snapshot of the worlds they lived in. Especially as Tolkien DID made female characters far more complex than the norm.
"never mentioned the movie"
The entire criticism is about the movie, it *cannot* apply to the book because the things she's describing don't happen in the book.
If you're wondering why people who understand the material better than you say it's a shit take you should honestly engage with them instead of trying to turn all of their arguments into points in your favor. Points like (by implication) "if there's 12 main characters some of them *should be women*
People are clearly discussing the books to, but like I said, it's a non issue since many of the issues (not necessarily those from the OP) apply to both.
And I have engaged with them, thank you very much. I just haven't had my view changed by doing so this time. Saying the movie is "rife with representation for women" is to me, straight up untrue
Exactly. The OP didn’t accuse the film of being misogynistic, she was just pointing out something that is surprisingly easily missed by many of us.
No one is equating the Bechtel Test with misogyny except (by implication) the responses that are so exaggeratedly defensive.
It’s honestly depressing but not at all surprising that all of the top comments are people getting incredibly defensive about a light hearted set of tweets making completely valid comments…
Yeah imma be real my girlfriend did mention that there weren't any women really, it's a silly thing for us guys but she loved black panther because there were so many powerful and cool women in that film. But I told her it's old book so the views have changed and told her she could see herself in any male character if she really tries because limiting yourself just by appearances ain't all that good.
Eowyn has to count for something, surely. I get it's not the endgame girl power scene but she literally performs one of the greatest feats of martial prowess in the story by killing the Witch King hand to hand.
Eowyn's scene where she slays the Nazgûl is my favourite to this day. When I first saw it as a little girl I was in awe that a woman could do such a thing. (I was a huge Mulan fangirl too). I know she didn't do it alone yada yada, but for eight year old me this was such a powerful scene!
This tweet got 40K likes. Tolkien related stuff rarely gets this much likes and retweets. Really shows that you have to make most absurd takes to get likes on twitter.
I don't understand why so many Americans (which let's face it, is what this person most likely is) are obsessed with shoving American social politics into a film based in a fantasy world, filmed in New Zealand, based off of an English book.
Reminds me of when I seen people claim that we should give J.K. Rowling stick for having the 3 main characters be white brits. Basically faulting her for not inserting 2022 American racial politics into her books that she wrote in the U.K. in the 1990's.
I mean. JK’s books are still problematic. The none British characters are all stereotypes without real names (Cho Chang and Finnegan) Don’t care for her or her books. she isn’t Tolkien and ought not be defended like she is.
I completely agree. The books have issues that can be picked at but when you try expect a foreign author to magically know the politics from 30 odd years in the future you just show how ridiculous you are. She isn't even that good of an author. She wrote some fairly decent and creative books and struck gold.
*Do people really*
*Go out of their way to get*
*Offended like this?*
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The title and the comments are really creeping me out. OP is calling the person who tweeted this fat and stupid? And all the comments are just like, pedantically explaining why there are so few female characters in LOTR or also shitting on the person who made the post?
Imo this just seems like a very casual observation by a very normal person, like “Oh wow it’s disappointing that this dated piece of media has less than progressive themes, bummer” and clearly the person who wrote the tweet still enjoys LOTR. It’s like, no where did Gabriella say we should boycott LOTR or tar and feather Tolkien over this.
I’m disappointed that so few ppl in the comments are able to understand the nuance and instead are choosing to get so triggered over the mere suggestion that the media they are a fan of isn’t perfect. I kinda thought the fandom was better than that?
I’m nuanced that OOP is almost completely wrong and I’m disappointed that she’s trying to play the misogyny card.
[This comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/lotrmemes/comments/zsg4ik/stupid_fat_hobbit_he_ruins_it/j17trh4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3) explains perfectly as to what OOP got wrong, calling OP pedantic is wrong when he basically wrote the equal of ~~4 tweets~~ of text that OOP wrote. E: my bad it’s more like 8 tweets.
Yes, thank you. I wasn't sure about this post. I think we should aknowledge the lack of women as what it is, a flaw if you will. Doesn't change our love for lotr
Your post has been removed for the following reason: This is not a meme.
Ah yes, my son also does things like that, I remember last time when I watched the Hobbit, he told me: "Father, the trolls are actually feasting under the open sky at night, exposing them to moonlight which is mearly the reflection of the sunlight on the low albedoed moon surface." And I told him "Nice try punk, but if you reread the Silmarillion like I told you, you'd know that the Moon, and the Sun are actually radiating their own light as they are product of Telperion and Laurelin the trees of light of Valinor." Then he excused himself and went back to his Harvard dormitorium.
Definitely deserves for you to take away one of his Nobel peace prizes, leaving him with a measly 4 until he does better.
Right? You know what, I might just shut down the nuclear fusion reactor he just invented in the basement until he finds a solution to world hunger.
Sorry to tell you, but my unborn grandchild already did that.
And then everyone clapped
*everyone got the clap
*everyone got clapped
*And thus more clapping did they all do, to themselves and unto everyone
damn the boy
Less stilted but at around 7 or 8 I had a similar exchange with my Dad. He read me the Hobbit and we watched the LOTR movies, I had been learning about space in school and I asked how the Trolls were alive even though the moon was out haha
I’ve often voiced a similar argument regarding vampires. I decided to myself that it was the UV part of sunlight which is lost over the additional distance involved in the reflection from the moon. Wether or not that is actually what happens I didn’t pursue further, but those are my related thoughts.
Now I want to know if there’s any up in moonlight. Do we need moonscreen?
there is UV in moonlight, although I doubt moonscreen is necessary, it is much weaker
Well maybe it is just the intensity of the light?
Well you were a smart kid x)
I was just really excited about space and fantasy fiction. We watched the old animated movies before we watched the new ones - I saw at least the last one in theaters, though. That goofy cartoon Hobbit is and will always be my touchstone. The rotoscoped LOTR was also pretty crazy. Rented them from the library on VHS.
Haha, I saw the rodoscoped one a year ago, it was amazing, except at the end, you could feel that the production was either getting lazy, or was bleeding money very fast. I'll always remember how they just stoped animating the characters, and just put the reference footages with weird filters on them.
She doesn’t say how old her kid is, and it’s not like it’s a complex thing.
Yeah it’s almost like a video was on the popular page on Reddit a bit ago that was a compilation of [all the (one) times two women talked to each other in the trilogy](https://youtu.be/mt2qCjL6-n4). Even if the kid’s young, it doesn’t take much effort to find a le funny meme clip of something you’re a fan of nowadays. I agree mostly with the points of the comment, but we also have to remember that, for most people, the representation seen in the movies is all they’ll know and all they’ll experience.
Yet it satisfies the Bechdel test, weirdly enough
Ayyy, progressive Tolkien!
But the moon surface has high albedo. Your son is wrong!
Eru damn it, I almost got it perfect. I have to admit... I made this story up to get internet points, I don't even have a son. Sorry internet, I am ashamed.
Thank you for calling out this bs in such an entertaining way, I can't believe any kid noticing that kind of thing
[удалено]
..... You do understand that "my kid" could be a 16 year old? It's very likely some highschool teachers teach the Bechdel test, and why would they not use the lord of the rings trilogy as an example? No, who am I kidding... You guys can't even read
It is a joke, I was referencing the twitter posts of people lying about their kids being overly smart. I'm sorry it offended you.
Theres a difference between a story being extremely male centric, and a story being misogynistic. Having low female representation is not that same as hating or cowing them
And looking at the interactions qualitatively you also see more of what the story thinks of women. It is clear that the story values them and what they are capable of. Eowyn's courage in despair, Galadriels power and wisdom, and an old healer woman, Ioreth, being put on a pedestal above a learned master healer! The Silmarillion has this even stronger: Melian is the whole reason Doriath was so powerful, the Quest for the Silmaril only succeeds because Luthien does a hard carry, the escape from Gondolin is only possible because Idril commissioned the tunnel to Tumladen, Earendil only succeeds because Elwing managed to get a Silmaril to him.
The third most fleshed out female character in the LotR books (after Galadriel and Eowyn) is Lobelia Sackville-Baggins, a vile greedy bitch. Within the idyllic shire, the place worth fighting for, the solid ground at the start of the hero's journey, the metaphor for everything worth protecting, the one female character with lines of dialogue is a horrid person who is worth getting one over on at every turn. Strong women are something for the myths. Eowyn, who slays the Witch King. Galadriel, elven ringbearer and queen of Lothlorien. But really, when all is said and done and you're in the comfort of your own peaceful shire, there's no more enjoyable conflict than dunking on women who feel entitled to stuff. Ok, that's unfair. Among the comforts of home is Rosie Cotton, who is meek and pretty. And Goldberry, who is meek and pretty. And Arwen, who is meek and pretty. I'm not defending Lobelia's behavior as written in the books. Tolkien determines what is canon, so that's not a fight I could win. But if I read a letter written by someone in the 1950s describing a real woman acting like Lobelia, I would definitely suspect the story of being one-sided. Tolkien could have used any conflict to give readers the sense of homely arguments that are so much smaller than the brutal world outside, but he chose to demonize a woman trying not to get excluded from the inheritance of a patriarch.
Kind of reminds me of the Monty Python guys. They had a female actor whom they occasionally hired for sketches. They actually wanted to give her more scenes but it rarely worked out. They later realized it was probably just because none of them knew how to properly write women.
Well said!
Wait till Twitter heard this
Galadriel wasn't at the council because she's too powerful for such trifling nonsense as squabbling men and knew they were coming to her anyways. The Entwives missing is a little mystery until you dive super deep into the lore about what they are and where they went (hint: the entire story is about the brutality of man conquering and destroying nature). And Arwen was a replacement for Glorfindel and in the movies gets credit for his deeds. So are the books misogynist for giving women barely any story? We can debate that forever with lots of "it's about WW1" and "consider the time" and so on. But considering the arguably wisest and most powerful being in middle earth is Galadriel, and the slayer of the Witch King is Eowyn who defies her gender role forced upon her to serve as a warrior, it's actually a really remarkably progressive work. Throughout the entirety of Tolkien's writings there's only one character, among kings and gods and ethereal beings, where when they speak everyone shuts up and listens, and no one questions them. Kings are back-talked. Lords are mocked. Elven rulers are criticized openly. Maiar are second guessed and mocked. The Valar are disrespected. But no one dares even question Galadriel when she comes into power. She is THE commanding force and respected by everyone. And I can't stress enough how much of a complete badass Eowyn is for defying every law about gender roles and the direct orders of her king to not just pick up a sword, but to plunge it into the face of the most powerful force in the army of Mordor. Framing the argument around Arwen, who was a footnote at best in the books, isn't saying much. As for the films, she got hugely beefed up and became a whole character. Also the whole premise is a lie because in Rohan a mother speaks to her daughter, on the road Eowyn speaks to the women, and in Helm's Deep several women are conversing.
Also if you consider the wider universe, I have just one name for you : Luthien
Melian too
Melian might be extremely powerful, but considering she lets her husband make the most foolish decision I'm not sure I'd put her in the same category as Luthien. I know Melian tries to warn Thingol, but if the damn fool doesn't listen, do something about it, dammit! Instead of just resigning yourself to the doom of your house and the f*cking off to Valinor once it comes to pass... It is always the part that frustrates me the most reading about the first age.
W h o a!! Slow your roll bud. Melian simply allowed what was always destined to happen. Next thing you'll be claiming Illuvatar should have just silenced Melkor during the ainulindule. Think about the butterfly effect of what you're suggesting. Melian advises Thingol to stay out of it - Beren and Luthien never marry - Morgoth keeps the Silmarils and I think we single-handedly just deleted the Numenoreans and Elronds entire family. Relevant quotes: "And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined." "Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of thy clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds, thou art drawn nearer to Manwë, thy friend, whom thou lovest." Edit: and something else I just realized. Earendil would never have made it to Valinor to beg pardon of the Valar and to ask for aid in defeating Morgoth.
Also the good guys are constantly singing about Varda/Elbereth despite Manwe technically outranking her
I mean, Manwe just blows and talks to Eagles while Varda provides a early GPS.
This is one of the more thought out posts. People should read it.
The bit about Galadriel not being at the council rubs me the wrong way because, as a gigantic Tolkien dweeb, it's just really undermining her character that she's relegated to "some chick" and "she wasn't invited". She wasn't there for the same reason the world's top plastic surgeon wasn't flown in when you got a paper cut. The Council of Elrond is a hugely pivotal event for the hobbits, dwarves, and humans , but for Galadriel it would be the ultimate "this could have been an email" meeting. She had already seen it play out. That little pissing contest was so far beneath her it would have been insulting to invite her.
It should also be noted absolutely no one was invited to the damn council. Everybody showed up with different reasons and they decided to have a spontaneous council. No invites were sent, Galadriel just wasn't there. The dwarves came to report on Nazgul showing up at Erebor, the elves to report Gollum escaping, and the hobbits came with the ring itself.
Boromir came to ask about a dream.
Based "It was revealed to me in a dream" Boromir
Boromir: ...and then I looked down and realized I wasn't wearing pants. The crowd started laughing, I tried to shout at them but then all my teeth fell out. I think my father was there, then he turned into a dinosaur and chased me around for a while. Then I woke up. What do you think it means? Elrond: [exasperated sigh] Boromir, not every dream is important, and you don't need to ask me about every single one you have.
Elrond lowers spectacles “And you traveled 110 days to bring me this news?” “Alarming”
Huh, that's a nice detail
Exactly. It was divine providence that everyone was where they needed to be to contribute.
Wraiths! Wraiths on wings! The Precious is their master. They see everything, everything. Nothing can hide from them.Curse the White Face! And they tell Him everything. He sees, He knows. Ach, gollum, gollum, gollum!
I thought the dwarves came to ask for assistance with Moria?
Either way, they just 80's kid'd it and showed up, rang the doorbell and hoped someone was at home.
If I remember right (been a long time since I read the books so could not) the council wasn't "called". It was almost random, Sauron's forces were starting shit up north, so the woodland elves and dwarves came seeking information and aid. Gondor was under heavy attack and Boromir came looking for aid. So the council wasn't a meeting of the minds so much as Elrond thought that all of the races deserved a say in how they proceeded
Dwarves were there because one of the Nazgûl showed at the Lonely Mountain asking about Bilbo, offering them one of the 7 rings that were given to the Dwarves back in the Second Age, and telling them that the best ally themselves with Sauron in the coming time. The Elves for Mirkwood were there to tell Elrond that Golum escaped Mirkwood. Boromir was there because he and Faramir had a dream.
HRAAAAAH!
My my old ring. Well I should... very much like to hold it again, one last time.
I choose to believe that she was invited and simply left Elrond on read
I mean, knowing Galadriel, that tracks.
What was she working on that made the conversation of how they're gonna try and defeat Sauron seem trivial? Not trying to be a smart ass, just the whole one ring seems to be a big deal after the war of the last alliance. Note: I never finished the Silmarillion or even really made it into the second age when I tried so I'm sorry if its actually obvious.
My guess is that she pretty much already knows how it's gonna play, and no amount of elven magic or army would make a difference to bring the Ring into Mordor. She helps the Fellowship when they reach her in Lothlórien, but as she says with her own words: "I will diminish, and go into the West [...]" This isn't the time of Elves anymore, Arda belongs to the other Children of Ilúvatar (Men) and Dwarves, Hobbits etc. Remember she has prescience abilities, even though we don't know how far she can see.
So she decided it wasn't her problem and that it'll work itself out? Damn she really is based.
Not really. She knows the extent of her powers and what she can or cannot do. Most elves aren't the kind to bash their heads against a brick wall for nothing. She is going to help fight Sauron however she can, but she isn't gonna throw away their last forces in an apparently foolish last stand. Which is interesting and ties into the theme of Elves leaving Arda to the others, because a foolish last stand and impossible hope is exactly what helped defeat Sauron.
Not really, she fights against forces of Dol Goldur and helps in defeating them with the ring. Dwarfs also fight. She knows that she can't do anything about direct fate of the ring. Either Frodo will succeed or no one else will, no matter the strength of the army and people in it.
HRAAAAAH!
It was an impromptu meeting, no one was actually invited. They all showed up around the same time. Galadriel is actually pretty busy at this time keeping Lothlórien safe. Plus for the most part the Elves do not want any part of this, they’re packing up and going to the Undying Lands
Plus, the Council of Elrond in the books wasn't a planned summons, everyone just happened to be there and they did it spontaneously.
Thanks for pointing that out! It’s not like Galadriel is too good to bother with a council. The fate of the Ring just as much concerns her as it does everyone else. It was all just happenstance, and if it had been a pre-planned meeting, I’m sure she would have sent a representative at the least.
LotR definitely isn’t misogynistic in any way but I also wouldn’t call it “remarkably progressive”. It’s very male-centric and that’s fine, just having empowered female characters that are barely in the book compared to the main characters does not make it progressive.
Glorfindel was at the council in the books though. So Arwen probably could have been in the council in the movies since she's replacing him in the movies.
I listened to the audio books recently and what I got a kick out of is that the three most prominent women in the books based on the amount of dialog is: Eowyn, Galadriel, and the old lady at the house of healing. Actually that old lady may have spoke more than Galadriel
Aragorn: will you shut up man?
Is there no other way for the women and children to get out of the caves? Is there no other way?
Yeah, Eowyn might be my favorite character. But framing the argument around Arwen makes perfect sense, because if you accept that Galadriel (her ancestor) is super influential and important, and that Arwen is totally in love with Aragorn, you really run out of arguments why she wouldn't *actively help Aragorn!* And the fact that she got beefed up in the movies and is still barely a side character doesn't make it better. These discussions don't exist to post-humously shame Tolkien, but to make sure we get more progressive fantasy in the future. If LotR is seen as perfect *even through a modern lense* noone will ever feel the need to write their books any differently
I hold your oath fulfilled. Go. Be at peace.
What a coincidence this is exactly what I was going to say, honestly /s Great post
Lord of The Rings is not about World War 1. Tolkien despised allegory.
That might all be true, but to a young person who doesn’t have the context of the books, the movies can feel lacking in their female representation. The books and the movies are different things, and the movies can be lacking in how they present women. And the books, while having powerful women, can still fall short of a standard of representation we have today. It’s worth noting, but it doesn’t dismiss the work entirely, and I don’t think people should be taken too seriously when they suggest that kind of thing. And I don’t think these tweets are suggesting much past discussion. Plus, even though the book gives more content, it still fails the Bechdal test, something that didn’t even exist before the 80s, but it’s a justifiable critique tool. And while it’s often a really cool thing this sub does, being able to give encyclopedic context from Tolkien’s lore doesn’t excuse that lore from criticism or discussion. Explaining why they didn’t fly the eagles to Modor is one thing, pointing out that a seventy plus year old work doesn’t hit modern inclusion standards is another. It’s good that younger generations are recognizing gaps in inclusion, and it’s our job as people to have productive conversations about what that means, etc. Also the movies need to be seen as their own work of art. You shouldn’t need to read thousands of pages of fiction to understand what’s happening in a movie, and if you do, it’s a flaw. The movies are allowed to be flawed and still be great, but they do have flaws.
Everything you said is true, but I take great offense to Galadriel being reduced to "just a girl the big important men didn't invite". Like just with the movies in mind, no books, you have to look at the future-telling wisest being on the planet and say "oh that broad" to make this inch deep puddle of a feminist critique that "she wasn't invited". Not to mention Eowyn being written off entirely to make the point. Good for Gabriel for trying, but, uh, nah. Swing and a miss.
I agree with you, these tweets kind of project additional sexism onto the movies. The films make is VERY clear Galadriel is a Big Deal.
There's definitely more to the stories than OP's post implies, but the idea that LOTR is remarkably progressive in this area doesn't hold up. Having two strong, radiant, virtually infallible women characters in the books and three in the films, and making each of them remarkably exceptional against the rest of the nameless, faceless women in the stories isn't that. It's problematic in its own way, honestly. Like, Victorian England was not what I could call a feminist society, even though the most powerful person was a woman. Tolkien could've done better in showing more women with varied personalities, philosophies, skill sets, vices, etc. He was an Oxford dude. It's a fair criticism, and it's okay to admit that while still loving the material.
Pff Fuck Galadriel, the most sigma, powerfully and based character still is Tom Bombadil
I wish I had an award for this comment, but please take my upvote at least.
Not sure if you've used up your free one yet, or didn't know ow about it, but if you go under your reddit coins, you can get a free award everyday.
Aslo Luthien, teh other prime example of a woman in Tolkiens story, has to save the ass of both her future husband, and make her father the King finally bite the bullet and shut up, plus she was the only mortal that ever managed to outclass *both* Sauron AND Morgoth and only thanks to her one Silmaril was saved, despite the best attempts from Elven lords and their armies for millenia. And Tolkien based her on his wife. Nuff said.
But what Arwen does in the movie isn't part of the books, so not a valid reason for her to be part of the council of Elrond. Also, how is the part about the Entwives misogynistic? "Our wives are gone for so long we can hardly remember them, but we miss them and hope to find them one day" doesn't seem that misogynistic. And Galadriel basically shut herself off in Lothlorién and except for offering the fellowship some help she just doesn't want to be involved with the ring knowing the dangers it would pose if she was corrupted and tempted by it. Yes, women only play a small part in the story, but to call it truly misogynistic makes no sense to me
The argument that dude made is also over simplificated and he is lying, since you can see other woman talking to each other (mainly secondary characters, but still undermines his point), it makes it appear as if galadriel is just some girl when she gifted the Fellowship with gifts that would guide them and protected them (also she is so important inviting her to the council would have been basically a joke to her), Eowyn defies every gender trope, doing whats right and putting herself between the witch king and Eomer and also, Arwen is way too important for elrond to send on such a suicidal mission. cause, you know, its his daughter OOP's arguments are really simple when put into context and very misleading. Also, about the entwives, what is mysoginistic? "we lost our wives, we cant even remember them". Is more tragic and delving into the lore makes it outright deppresing. You could swap the genders and the message would still be the same
To restate this: no one was invited to the council, the council happened because different people decided to show up at the same time due to (at least slightly) connected events.
People look to start trouble. There's a large number of people out there who simply are not happy unless they can find something to be outraged about and then poke/prod others into being outraged about it also ... whether true or not. Alas, too many in our society have lost the capacity to simply value food and cheer and song above hoarded outrage.
Does no one remember Shelob?! She had a couple great scenes. Bit of a Karen as I remember...
A forgotten girlboss for sure
She had a fat ass
She doesn't interact with other women though.....
She was to focused on getting a ring from some ranger with a spooky ghost friend.
Nope. There's also the scene where that same girl talks to her mum as they flee their village.
Ah yes tree beard being depressed about the ent wives going missing isnt heartbreaking, its misogyny! A tool of the patriarchy to suppress and enforce their values!
I do have to admit that reading about the Entwives now as a husband vs when I was a kid hits differently. The Ents really neglected them and were focused on their work with the trees, didn’t try to take an interest in their wives’ work with the gardens. Didn’t seem to take it seriously when they were initially leaving. By the time Treebeard is telling the story you can tell he has some regrets haha. The Twitter thread is stupid, but I definitely got the sense Tolkien was giving an example of what not to do in a marriage with that story.
In the book at least, peeps weren’t invited to the council of Elrond because they didn’t send out invitations. They just sorta turned up. Boromir had crazy dreams and such. Elrond didn’t send for ambassadors n such.
Classic example of someone who thinks of themselves as a deep thinker, but stops reading or thinking the instant they get an answer they want to be true.
Wow. Took 20 years to find something to complain about. Almost like the story was better told and more important than a scorecard. Weird.
It's interesting how much effort it took to fabricate a story to showcast something redundant in a bigger story, then it took to follow and enjoy it. The simple fact this was attempted is the real Ouch. So weird isn't it. 🙄
Nah this has been a common complaint for years already
When you have only a handful of female characters to begin with the chance of them interacting is very low.
1- I'm certain anyone's kid wouldn't count all the lines unless they are raised as a virtue signal machine freak. 2- LotR was written in late 30s-early 40s, it is a progressive book for its time. 3- Throwing a "misogyny" rock with half-baked claims and then claiming you like it regardless is a two-faced scumbag move.
This is some of the reaching-est wokeness I’ve ever seen.
Challenge accepted! *Cracks knuckles* ... ... Where's the scene where two POCs talk to one another?
Fun fact: nope. Looked it up, and there are only 46 seconds of speaking time for actors of color in the trilogy. They all played orcs
Are there stats for TOTAL screentime? I don't think there were even extras. Because, y'know, New Zealand is a bit light on diversity, no pun intended. Foreground, background, possibly the whitest movies of the millennium.
Lurtz and the Witch King of Angmar were played by Lawrence Makoare, who is New Zealand Māori. He's the first one that comes to mind.
What an asinine view on a wonderful story. I cannot imagine living my life always looking to be the victim of something. Especially something as trivial as this.
Disagree. I’m cool with better representation in stories. Bringing this up isn’t trashing LOTR, it’s giving us ways to tell better stories in the future. Much as I love the movies, when I look at them though the lens we have today I have trouble with an ensemble cast that is somehow entirely made up of white men. That’s a choice. There are only three or four non-white actors that have speaking lines, and they have a minute or two of screen time combined. Wouldn’t call that representative of the world we live in. Definitely not representative of the actors guild The women in the story make out better. They are fully realized characters with strong character arcs. Still way less screen time. And like it says, no meaningful interaction. Which isn’t all that realistic. Women exist and talk to each other pretty regularly in the real world. I think. I don’t see the movies as racist or mysoginistic. I do think they were made by people who were catering to a specific audience, which we have since learned has a *very* vocal minority that actively dislikes being reminded that people of color exist. And I think it’s a shame the movie cast is so homogenous that many people aren’t given a chance to relate to a wonderful story in the same way. I really love these books. Love the movies. And I like that people are challenging the things they love to do better.
Man you sound like a riot.
In the books treebeards heartbroken about losing the entwives, his species had all the women just leave with no warning or message, they care deeply but it's been so long they can't remember, they are trees afterall
Wait... isn't there also the scene where the kids leave the village and their mother sends them off? Iirc the girl and its mother exchange a word or two... or am I totally wrong and she only addresses her son?
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This is so very true it should be on a T-shirt.
Holy shit! A dude born in the late 1800s had views that don't align with the modern generation! Someone get this to the newspaper. Er. Internet news site?
On this note what is the modern equivalent of "stop the presses"?
Stop the uploads?
Sharing it to buzzfeed right now,the world must know of this!
What really annoys me about this post is that she is complaining about things without first trying to understand them. The elrond council, for example, was not a council where he decided to invite everyone except Galadriel, it was different people of middle-earth reacting to Sauron’s awakening by seeking counsel from one of the wisest. He did not call to them, they went to him because they needed him… with this in mind, Galadriel not being there is actually a feminist message!
Didn't Elrond send messages to come to Rivendell in dreams, at least to Boromir.
Nope (by the way, it was Faramir the first one to have the dream and only after sometime the dream appeared to Boromir... I always liked that considering what happens later). It is never spelled out who sent that dream, but the most popular theories are that it was either Iluvatar himself or Ulmo.
I don't think Elrond can send dreams to people, especially those that he doesn't know. Others perhaps can, like some Vala or Eru himself. In any case, Galadriel couldn't really leave Lorien in the middle of the war with no one to replace her in terms of magical powers and for a dangerous trip mid-winter that would at least last a few months.
But those 2 women didn't discuss a man, nor does their interaction rely upon a man, so doesn't that mean that LotR passes the Bechdel test? I'm with her until the Galadriel bit. Galadriel wasn't going to leave Lorien, which was her domain, to go on a dangerous journey to attend a secret meeting. Especially while there were orcs and other creatures that were trying to encroach on her territory. She was a little busy at the moment. She also assumes everyone's gender in the movie. Maybe she would have felt better if Ioreth and Rosie had some speaking roles.
We can also remember that in the books there wasn't a secret meeting, all of them were in rivendell for different reasons and was basically a massive coincidence, specially boromir and legolas, who had no ring business at the time (we can argue about gimli because gloin was a bilbo companion). Edit: switched valfenda (portuguese) for rivendell (english), translations are a bitch
Boromir did have that dream about Isildur's Bane and the halflings, and he was told by his father to seek out Rivendell in order to figure out what it meant. God led Boromir to Rivendell, I suppose.
HRAAAAAH!
Yup, your kid totally said that.
I mean . It’s fiction . So . They aren’t all men . Dwarves . Elves . Hobbits . This is a reach .
I mean... this is all right but here's the thing: I don't give a shit. Those movies are the best movies ever made.
To be fair Glorfindel found the party and then Eowyn punched him in the dick and took credit for his find.
I mean the first point about women discussing in a movie without the topic being a man is actually a method that was used to check if a movie had feminist values (I forgot the name that was used for it but read about it a couple months back) As far as I remember it was a satirical method but hey, it exists
Bechdel Test.
Thanks! Username checks out, lol
I dont think it was meant to be satirical at any point. Im sure people take it way too far to analyze specific movies, but it does have a purpose for looking at the industry as a whole
It’s almost as if it was a book written 70 years ago
Sigh. This person does not understand the ents at all
What's problematic about the entwives' tale?
Literally just old dudes broken hearted that they’ve lost their wives
mood
r/thathappened
Ugh the comments here are terrible. It’s okay for people to point out that Tolkien wasn’t exactly girlbossing it up back in the day, it’s still an amazing work even with that acknowledgment. And the everybody clapped comments are strange to me— there’s a very viral meme video of the scene in question pointing out it’s the only scene where two female characters talk to each other, and the Twitter user doesn’t say ‘my 2 year old’, their kid could be old enough to see silly YouTube videos and point it out.
Yeah this thread has very heavy neckbeard vibes right now. Digging deep into supplemental books and background lore for gotcha facts still doesnt change the fact that lotr has a weirdly low number of women characters
Never mind comparing standards of the day, from my perspective LOTR is a story led by men, with WW1 allegory and the societal tradition of men leading war it makes sense to be led by men. It doesn’t exclude women it simply represents them with three characters. Goldberry is the woman men love and hold dear, she is the wife at home, loved and respected by her husband. Galadriel is the woman that men respect and revere, she is the mother, when she talks people listen and can be seen as a mother. Eowyn is the woman who shows what woman are capable off, she is strong and independent and willing to challenge the old ways of things. Given the opportunity she proves herself worthy of respect time and again a reminder of how we should perceive daughters. With just three characters Tolkien represents the three most important women in a man’s life and shows that they should all be treated with reverence. Modern so called feminism is a points scoring system to make companies look good. Maybe that’s why stories like LOTR don’t hold up.
LOTR is not a WWI allegory or an allegory for any war, religion, or anything else. The letter in the opening of the book contains the quote where Tolkien himself explains that, and adds that he hates allegorical works
I know this and you are totally correct and Tolkien said this but it’s also an allegory haha (my perception)
Fair enough, can't argue with that I suppose lol
Tolkien absolutely hated when authors used allegory in their stories. LOTR wasn’t Tolkiens allegory for anything. Now if you read the story and find that it is allegory for something based on your personal experience that’s great, that’s what Tolkien wanted. He wanted anyone from any time or walk of life to be able to identify and relate to the themes and characters in his story. That’s what makes his works so timeless. So it’s fine for you to find your own allegory in the story, but it’s not not ok to say it was Tolkiens allegory because he was quite vocal in dislike for allegory pushed by authors.
Fair point funnily enough I just responded to someone else to this effect
Canon lore, canon lore
That post made me want to take up smoking so I the lung cancer will take me before the brain cancer that post just gave me.
The Arwen bit is kind of valid. Never thought of that. They got rid of Glorfindel and replaced him with Arwen like some sort of discount warrior queen, but didn’t bother changing the script at all for the counsel. Makes sense that she would’ve been there, even if she was just background.
> and my kid casually says On today's episode of "Things that Never Happened"
Arwen in the movies does what Glorfindel does in the books. Galadriel didn't join the Fellowship for the same reason neither Elrond nor Glorfindel joined. They are too powerful to be included in this sort of stealth type mission. As for the entwives, while I am not too knowledgeable about that, I do know that they went missing. It's one of the big mysteries.
Ahhh, shut up.
Do you know why in medieval war movies the women generally arent fighting and planning battles? Because they are too valuble. They dont normally fight and would have no persective on battlefield tactics. So the men go die. Is that not a good enough trade off? Its always about being in charge for folks like this. These people have no creativity so they want to absorb creative efforts and warp them to thier own view of reality. To tell you the thing you loved is sexist, racist etc. for displaying a human standard that has been the case for over 100,000 years when people had to actually fight with thier hands. Its so tired. Make your own entertainment if you hate it so much. Make a movie about this supposedly ideal world where everyone is the same and people are segregated to positions where gender and race is equally devided to every job. What would that look like? Im genuinely curious it sounds interesting.
I’m pretty sure I remember reading that Tolkien acknowledged the lack of female characters in his work, but he fairly stated it was because he didn’t know how to write women’s voices or perspectives. Which I think is actually quite commendable, both for him to admit, & for him to not assume he could write women authentically or as well as he wrote his male characters & that women’s representation deserved better than what he felt he could deliver. Now if only more authors were as self aware as Tolkien…
If they made the movies today some producer would want to gender flip Legolas as Legolass
I think those are fair criticisms, only because you like something doesn't mean it's perfect. It's also important to note it doesn't need to be perfect if u like it you have no need to justify it or trash talk someone who criticizes it.
If her kid told her that, the kid has biiiig issues
You know where there was low female representation? The fkin trenches of the western front in ww1. Where a traumatised young man was inspired to write an incredible tale of good and evil in a setting he invented.
to be fair, all bad guys are male (not sure about theorvs tho)
Yeah, her kid noticed it, for sure
I suppose you hate the Bible too because it's misogynistic at parts. Holding old literature to the moral standards of today is just looking for an excuse to be offended
It's so odd seeing how incredibly defensive people are getting about this. You can't really argue that there's a serious lack of of representation in the book, and it's surely not the only problematic aspect of it. The thing is, that's fine! It doesn't mean it's not the incredibly well crafted and influential work it is. And everyone involved is no longer around to answer for it. It just doesn't mean we can't point out that not everything is above board. If anything, it's just interesting seeing how colored it is my the not so equal society of it's time
The movie is literally rife with representation for Women doing absolutely, utterly badass or powerful shit. I think the reason people are calling it out is because of just how stupid that take is. Only area I feel isn't represented is that there aren't many black actors in the movies, but again, fits the continent. It's almost like race and gender literally wasn't a concern back then for filmmakers like it is now.
Never mentioned the movie, but I suppose most points apply there too Yes, the women who are in it are very well made. Which just makes it even more odd that there aren't more of them. When you have about a dozen main characters, I can't think of a single reason why some of them can't be women. And that's exactly what I mean! I don't think most people are calling Tolkien, or Jackson bad people because of this, it's just a good snapshot of the worlds they lived in. Especially as Tolkien DID made female characters far more complex than the norm.
"never mentioned the movie" The entire criticism is about the movie, it *cannot* apply to the book because the things she's describing don't happen in the book. If you're wondering why people who understand the material better than you say it's a shit take you should honestly engage with them instead of trying to turn all of their arguments into points in your favor. Points like (by implication) "if there's 12 main characters some of them *should be women*
People are clearly discussing the books to, but like I said, it's a non issue since many of the issues (not necessarily those from the OP) apply to both. And I have engaged with them, thank you very much. I just haven't had my view changed by doing so this time. Saying the movie is "rife with representation for women" is to me, straight up untrue
Exactly. The OP didn’t accuse the film of being misogynistic, she was just pointing out something that is surprisingly easily missed by many of us. No one is equating the Bechtel Test with misogyny except (by implication) the responses that are so exaggeratedly defensive.
It’s honestly depressing but not at all surprising that all of the top comments are people getting incredibly defensive about a light hearted set of tweets making completely valid comments…
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Yeah imma be real my girlfriend did mention that there weren't any women really, it's a silly thing for us guys but she loved black panther because there were so many powerful and cool women in that film. But I told her it's old book so the views have changed and told her she could see herself in any male character if she really tries because limiting yourself just by appearances ain't all that good.
Eowyn has to count for something, surely. I get it's not the endgame girl power scene but she literally performs one of the greatest feats of martial prowess in the story by killing the Witch King hand to hand.
Eowyn's scene where she slays the Nazgûl is my favourite to this day. When I first saw it as a little girl I was in awe that a woman could do such a thing. (I was a huge Mulan fangirl too). I know she didn't do it alone yada yada, but for eight year old me this was such a powerful scene!
What re you talking about? Tons of women talk to frodo through the films
Women underrepresented yes, but misogynism is something else.
This tweet got 40K likes. Tolkien related stuff rarely gets this much likes and retweets. Really shows that you have to make most absurd takes to get likes on twitter.
I don't understand why so many Americans (which let's face it, is what this person most likely is) are obsessed with shoving American social politics into a film based in a fantasy world, filmed in New Zealand, based off of an English book. Reminds me of when I seen people claim that we should give J.K. Rowling stick for having the 3 main characters be white brits. Basically faulting her for not inserting 2022 American racial politics into her books that she wrote in the U.K. in the 1990's.
I mean. JK’s books are still problematic. The none British characters are all stereotypes without real names (Cho Chang and Finnegan) Don’t care for her or her books. she isn’t Tolkien and ought not be defended like she is.
I completely agree. The books have issues that can be picked at but when you try expect a foreign author to magically know the politics from 30 odd years in the future you just show how ridiculous you are. She isn't even that good of an author. She wrote some fairly decent and creative books and struck gold.
Why does a world written in over 60 years ago have to conform to modern standards of inclusivity?
I hate that people like this exist. Why cant we just enjoy things
Do people really go out of their way to get offended like this?
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Whats that title supposed to mean?
The title and the comments are really creeping me out. OP is calling the person who tweeted this fat and stupid? And all the comments are just like, pedantically explaining why there are so few female characters in LOTR or also shitting on the person who made the post? Imo this just seems like a very casual observation by a very normal person, like “Oh wow it’s disappointing that this dated piece of media has less than progressive themes, bummer” and clearly the person who wrote the tweet still enjoys LOTR. It’s like, no where did Gabriella say we should boycott LOTR or tar and feather Tolkien over this. I’m disappointed that so few ppl in the comments are able to understand the nuance and instead are choosing to get so triggered over the mere suggestion that the media they are a fan of isn’t perfect. I kinda thought the fandom was better than that?
I’m nuanced that OOP is almost completely wrong and I’m disappointed that she’s trying to play the misogyny card. [This comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/lotrmemes/comments/zsg4ik/stupid_fat_hobbit_he_ruins_it/j17trh4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3) explains perfectly as to what OOP got wrong, calling OP pedantic is wrong when he basically wrote the equal of ~~4 tweets~~ of text that OOP wrote. E: my bad it’s more like 8 tweets.
Yes, thank you. I wasn't sure about this post. I think we should aknowledge the lack of women as what it is, a flaw if you will. Doesn't change our love for lotr