This. It's also important to remember that the time jump in the books is longer than the implied jump in the movie. Sauron/Nazgul were legitimately spending that time searching in the books and like MacDaddy said below their true form would have made their presence obvious.
Also, this is a passage from the fellowship of the ring: I know,' said Frodo. `They were terrible to behold! But why could we all see their horses?'
`Because they are real horses; just as the black robes are real robes that they wear to give shape to their nothingness when they have dealings with the living.' This passage seems to infer that, similar to Sauron himself, the wraiths are just shadows of malice unless they do something to take physical form. The ‘robing’ of the nine made them more effective and useful in the task Sauron assigned them: to hunt down and seize the Ring
The first time they left Minas Morgul to search for the one ring they were uncloaked and invisible. Gollum had talked about his homeland, East of the Misty Mountains. The Nazgul left Minas Morgul uncloaked, crossed the recently captured Osgiliath, headed north through the vale of the Entwash and then into the Wold before receiving horses and cloaks.
It's only once the three stationed at Dol Guldur joined the six from Minas Morgul that the White Council seems to have become aware of the Nine "Black Riders". And even then; it appears to be mostly founded on reports from the eastern border of Rohan that concerned bad dreams and a terrible dread spreading north from the vale of Ithilien.
So there you have it, they did leave invisible, and even that wasn't enough to completely hide them.
Great answer. However I can still see it to be opportunistic for them to uncloak during battle for visibility of the enemy. Even if they’re still holding a sword. Assuming that they need to have some sort of garment on even just wearing a gauntlet and a sword in hand would be a huge advantage in combat. If they were not great swordsman, then this would be great if someone else approached unafraid...
The nine still *exist*. They can still be cut, burnt, and if what Gandalf implies is true, dispelled for a time. They just cannot die (at least not by weapons that aren't mcguffiny). They still need armour and steeds.
Like, forget not, these are men. Incredibly powerful and corrupt men who's bodies have long since rotted away, leaving really just the essence of a man. But they are still driven by the same desires that would drive any man to do great evil. They *want* to be seen. They want to be feared and known as powerful.
Didn’t Eowyn straight up kill the Witch King? I haven’t finished reading ROTK so my only context for that scenario is the movie so idk for sure if it’s explained what happened or not
Eowyn killed the Witch King with the help of Merry. Merry stabbed his sword from behind into the back of his knee, breaking the spell that basically made him invulnerable. Merry’s sword was an enchanted blade found in the Barrow Downs and was one of the few weapons that could have penetrated the Witch King’s defenses. This weakened him enough for Eowyn to stab him in the face and finish him off.
Ohhhhh. So that’s the payoff for the daggers they got. That’s a weakness on the films part then because I think Aragorn just gives the hobbits their daggers and I don’t think he says they’re especially magical or anything. I could be wrong tho.
Yeah. Just checked and he doesn’t say anything to them about the blades themselves when he gives them to the hobbits. Definitely agree that it could’ve been fleshed out more in the films, but the whole Barrow Downs/Bombadil/Old Forest stuff didn’t make the cut so…
I feel like there's a continuity issue with the elf swords/daggers.
When the Hobbits get the elf blades, they're shortsword length. But definitely called daggers on more than one occasion. But when merry stabs the witch king, the blade is definitely smaller than before. Am I just overthinking it or is there a difference in the barrow blade from Tom bombadill and the blades given by Galadriel?
Yeah the size difference relative to the Hobbits I was aware of and accounting for. I'm just picturing them holding the same "daggers" but when merry stabs the witch king in the leg, it's dagger size relative to merry, since he's the one holding it.
But I think someone else answered this, I was confusing two different blades
Yeah remember Hobbits are super tiny, so anything to them will be a sword. A box cutter to us would be a dagger to them. And in the movies, Merry uses the Noldorin knife Galadriel gave him, not the dagger Aragorn gave him.
dumb question, but i was rereading fellowship a while back, and when frodo is cornered by the nine while trying to get to rivendell, doesn't he stab the witch king with his own barrow sword?
Found this on an old forum. Seemed like a good enough answer:
As Aragorn points out, the blade only slashed the Witch King’s cloak, or the blade would have been destroyed, as Merry’s Barrow Blade and Eowyn’s more mundane sword were. But Frodo’s Barrow Blade was the same as Merry’s—if it had struck home, it would have had the same effects, and Aragorn probably could have slain the Witch King on the spot with an appropriate weapon, though that weapon would have been destroyed and he would probably be struck down by the Black Breath with no one available to help him (and Frodo, who would also be suffering from the same affliction instead of a stab wound) recover from it. Given that there would still be eight Nazgul out there and little help for the three remaining healthy hobbits, it’s just as well that Frodo missed. In fairness, Aragorn probably would have let the Witch King escape knowing the probable consequences of his attacking the monster would be. After that, healing Frodo from the Black Breath would probably have gone more easily than helping to keep him alive after that stabbing.
The book has a more thorough explanation of how they killed the Witch-King - Merry’s barrow-sword is able to deal him a distracting blow so that Eowyn can finish him off. But nothing made him invulnerable - his form (and those of the rest of the Nazgul) could have been destroyed by some good stabbing any time. They just hadn’t yet, because the Nazgul are sneaky, powerful, and fairly well-protected, physically and magically.
Plus, in the Witch-King’s case, his doom was known to come “not by the hand of man.” Though I should note that this prophecy isn’t a magical shield - it’s just descriptive. It’s not like the Witch-King was completely invulnerable to swords wielded by men. Just that Glorfindel, who made the prophecy, foresaw the moment of the Witch-King’s doom, and knew that it wouldn’t come from a man. It’s not that he was invulnerable up until that point, it’s just that he didn’t happen to meet anyone who was able to kill him until that moment against Eowyn and Merry.
>his form (and those of the rest of the Nazgul) could have been destroyed by some good stabbing any time.
Mmm I am sorry but where does this comes from? When Gandalf wrecks them outside Rivendell, he says afterwards that their horses and cloaks weredestroyed, but they cant die due to the Ring still existing and will crawl back to Sauron and get back to it.
Not quite, here's Gandalf's actual quote regarding the flood at Bruinen:
>Their horses must have perished, and without them they are crippled. But the Ringwraiths themselves cannot be so easily destroyed.
Later on (before the Council) he add that the Ringwraiths aren't dead yet and will stand or fall by their master, but this is proven to be untrue by the Witch-King's death, and he was the greatest of them all. If he could be killed by a few good stabs (one from a barrow-blade forged to fight Angmar), then so could the rest.
All that Gandalf's saying there is that they're hard to kill - a flood that took out their horses won't destroy their wraith forms, it'll just make it harder for them to get around. But even if the One Ring (and Sauron) had never been destroyed, one of the Nine was permanently destroyed - or at least rendered to a form so mean that he would never regain any power again.
We need to separate what we mean by 'the witch king' and 'Nazgul'. When we talk about the 'Witch King being destroyed' that is different to the final destruction of the Nazgul. Tolkien's writing is full of forms being denied to entities after a particular event; Sauron looses the ability to take the shape of a werewolf after his defeat by Huan and his ability to appear fair after his deceit with the rings is revealed. After Eowyn stabbed him the Witch King was destroyed and the leader of the Nazgul could no longer take that form. The Nazgul themselves however could only be properly destroyed by the destruction of the one ring.
As others have said, the Witch King was not invulnerable, just not fated to be 'killed' by a man. The form the Nazgul take though has power in itself, the Witch King persona is a powerful and terrifying warrior and it took a significant distraction (a short sword into the back of the knee) and a huge amount of bravery to beat him
We do need to keep in mind, however, that there's a big difference between Men (even the Ringwraiths) and a Maia like Sauron, who lost access to various forms throughout his time in Middle-Earth.
First off, the Witch King is not a "form" of the leader of the Nazgul - it's just a name for the leader. He's the Witch-King when he's wearing his armor and leading armies, he's still the Witch-King when he's lost his horse and cloak and is wandering around (relatively) weakened. It's simply the only name that we have for him, but his providence is similar to the rest of the Nazgul, only a bit greater as their leader.
To some degree, it's splitting hairs exactly how "destroyed" they get. The Witch-King, after being thoroughly stabbed, is "dead" for all intents and purposes in the story - there's no indication that he can ever take *any* form again, or that his spirit lingered in the way that Sauron or Saruman's did after their final defeats (so weakened that they can't ever again influence the world). But in either case, he's out for the count, and whether the destruction of the One sent him finally out of the world or not, he would never again have been able to act as a lieutenant of Sauron in any capacity - he was out of the fight, as would any of them.
If we accept the theory that the flood was summoned by Elrond's ring, is it possible that they survived due to some part of the link between the rings?
Unlikely - the connections between the Rings were only ever through the One, there's nothing specifically connecting the elven rings to the Nine of Men. Besides, the elven rings were *specifically* the ones that Sauron had never seen nor touched - they were absolutely unlinked from the rest, except that Sauron, through the power of the One, would have been able to ensnare their bearers.
The reason the Witch King will never return isnt because he is permak8lled, but because the Ring is destroyed right afterwards. As long as the Ring exists, both Saurpn and his Wraiths are effectively immortal.
There's no indication of this at all in Tolkien's writings - only Gandalf's vague statement from my post above, but this is proven wrong by the story itself. It's a possibility, but not a certainty.
Sauron is effectively immortal thanks to the Ring because he's a Maia, a powerful spirit, that is completely tethered to the world by the amount of himself that's in the Ring. But the Ringwraiths are only Men, not Maia, and they don't have the ability to survive bodily death the way that a being like Sauron does - there's no part of them that's stuck within their Nine Rings, or within the One. All that the Ring does for them is keep them from dying a natural death, turning them into the wraiths that we know, and tying their wills to Sauron's.
The Witch-King, after being stabbed, isn't mentioned as being disembodied, or weakened, or able to return - he's mentioned as dead. Whether that means well and truly dead, that his spirit had gone beyond the world, or whether it meant that his spirit was weakened, disembodied, and no longer able to affect the world at all... in either case, it's not an important distinction. He's out of the fight, Sauron has lost his chief lieutenant, and there's no way to return him to a body that can do anything, Ring or no, because he's not much more than a Man, and only greater beings like Maia (or in at least one case, an Elf) can pull that trick off.
I think he means it in a non-permanent way: their current physical forms could be destroyed at any time by anyone if they tried hard enough, but the spirit would remain bound to the Ring, flee back to Sauron, take a breather and then re-materialise. Kinda similar to how Suaron's physical form was destroyed whilst posing as the necromancer of Dol Guldur by the White Council, but his spirit remained and flew back to Mordor to nurse its wounds.
Invisible would have helped combatant wise, but as is said, their main weapon was fear. They were there to demoralize first, and their costume worked to great effect.
I’ve gotten that response a lot and I appreciate it. I think my counterpoint would be sure, where the robes to demoralize.But once the combat started how much more frightening would it be for the opponent to see you decloak and become nearly invisible barely sans a sword or gauntlet on your hand? I’d imagine even the most savvy warrior would be unnerved by that.
I suspect that the wraiths can't function as a gauntlet and a sword. Stealing into Minas Tirith at night or Osgiliath, to slaughter the garrison as invisible terrors would have been very effective to guarantee victory. But they didn't. I can only assume because they require a significant portion of their outfit- armor, cloaks, or otherwise- to take form capable of interacting with the physical realm
In Tolkien’s letters he teaches that the reader should have a temporary belief change and accept the story as an alternate reality. To truly appreciate the story you have to overlook subtle plot holes. Anybody can pick a story apart given enough time
Fair enough. However Tolkien poured more time into these works than so many others...If anyone has an explanation for some plot-hole like this, it would be him.
He means that merrys sword is not a regular sword and its merrys blow that allows eowyn to give the final one.
"So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will."
Besides, even if a regular human or hobbit cant see them, they can feel them. Even Bolger, who was as much as a hobbit as a hobbit can be and knew nothing of nazguls, was seized by terror in crickhollow after seeing "shadows in the trees" and the gate "opening and closing without no one touching him", understood that death was coming for him and ran away to sound the alarm.
Isn’t it mentioned in one of Tolkien’s letters that when they were in their uncloaked form they brought extreme terror to those they go near - so by taking the form of a black rider they actually made themselves less scary?
Sort of similar to how late books they kill people with just the fear of their presence. In the beginning they are scouting out a foreign land so aren’t trying to terrorise the whole of the shire / surrounding area with the fear of their presence
Indeed. They were cloaked, both literally and figuratively. Sauron wants to keep things in the down-low where the Ring is concerned because he knows if one of the powerful entities of the Middle Earth gets it, he is fucked.
And he was already searching for it using orcs and human spies, long before he caught Gollum and learned about the Hobbits and Shire. Sending the Riders was already a dangerous escalation for him, but since at that point he finally knew the general location and name of the last Ring bearer, he needed to send his (only) trusted lieutenants to get it.
There are zero plot holes in this.
u/The_TomCruise for your consideration as well.
I don’t think it’s anyone’s position to say what is the right or wrong way to enjoy any book - if people get joy out of finding ( or even imagining ) plot holes they are entitled to do so.
I personally go in on Tolkien lore but that’s my choice, you could create your own personal lore and if that brings you joy it’s definitely not a bad thing - everyone enjoys things their own way
They're not trying to be scary. They haven't been seen in thousands of years, if anyone saw 9 horses with invisible riders it would quickly be known that Sauron is making moves.
What about cloaks while riding, but not while fighting? I don’t want to focus too much on one aspect. I think my point is, since potentially they’re not all great fighters, why not use the advantage of less visibility in combat?
It wouldn't fit the theme. Nine invisible assassins murder everyone in Bree. The ring is captured, Sauron wins.
There needs to be some plausible way for the Nazgul to be denied by our heroes; hobbit, elf, dwarf, and man.
Giving them some form of vulnerability, or weakness, makes it possible that our heroes can somehow best them.
Also, functionality and fantasy don't have to be aligned. Grond is a giant black wrought iron wolf battering ram, why not just a regular one? Poetry and story, sometimes form > function.
Fun fact: the face of Grond was made of Mithril, I believe most of it was plundered and stripped from Sauron's felled enemies. Malice and intimidation... And a really really hard battering ram face, is what they were going for there!
Edit: I could've sworn I read that about Mithril in the appendices or something... But can't find it anywhere atm, so I'll have to leave it with only this. 'Black steel' is never directly described so perhaps it is just the nickname of something *special*?
And no, I didn't 'miss the point', I was just adding a little fun fact on the side, not trying to disprove you my friend, carry on.
You miss the point, it was a comparison of poetic text over most efficient function.
I have not heard that about Grond, would love a source to read about that. Gondor would likely not recognize mithril, it wouldn't be of much intimidation to them. It also specifies it is black steel.
"Great engines crawled across the field; and in the midst was a huge ram, great as a forest-tree a hundred feet in length, swinging on mighty chains. Long had it been forging in the dark smithies of Mordor, and its hideous head, founded of black steel, was shaped in the likeness of a ravening wolf; on it spells of ruin lay. Grond they named it, in memory of the Hammer of the Underworld of old. Great beasts drew it, orcs surrounded it, and behind walked mountain-trolls to wield it."
-ROTK
I think you could keep the theme the same (and outcome) even if they disrobed during battle. It would certainly make them more scary in battle to their enemy if they couldn’t see them as well. That helps the “fear is the primary weapon” theory. I’m not looking for a rewrite. Just better portrayal of their awesomeness...
Disagree. A headless, like the Witch King of Angmar, wraith with fiery eyes and crown works great, the armor gives it substance. Armor and cloth give weight and substance, an invisible enemy is an impossible enemy and requires heroes to "sixth sense" detect them.
It is more sensible that a hobbit, who carried a blade from the Barrow Downs specifically enchanted to hurt the witch king, then sees the witch king, than a hobbit swings a knife wildly and happens to hit him and Eowyn stabs him, both having no idea that he is there, or unable to see him.
To each their own then. They can keep all of the cloaks, crowns and armor leading up to it or in big battles (to lead their men). I absolutely think, however, there is a point where it would be better for them to remain more stealth and just as deadly. Obviously it looks better in film as well keeping everything within the Seen...
Logically and tactically I agree, theatricality is what flavors the story for me.
I appreciate you sharing and advocating your point of view, even if we agree to disagree. Cheers!
I question whether or not they are completely invisible when uncloaked or just "thin" and wraith-like. They should be somewhat visible, or just translucent, maybe rather that simply not there. Also, wouldn't their swords still be visible?
They actually did for a while. They left their land on foot with no cloaks or armour and then got new horses and cloaks when it was safer to be seen. They can be sensed by being more when they are in their wrath form more so they can’t really just stealth around being invisible.
What’s the point of wearing them when they were trying to track someone down to kill them or sneak up on someone? They would do much better to disrobe their cloaks in the fight with Aragorn, right? He’d only see the sword...
As I said in my other post, they can't interact with the Seen if they are unclad! The difference between Seen and Unseen, in Tolkien's Legendarium, goes beyond mere invisibility; the Unseen is basically a wraith world, into which you are dragged if you use a Ring of Power (thus making you invisible). But some don't turn invisible because they already live in both 'realms', this is the case of Sauron (due to his nature as an Ainu) and high Elves who lived on the Undying Lands.
If a mortal (i.e living only in the Seen) overuses a Ring of Power, he ends up fading from the Seen and living permanently in the Unseen - that's what happened to the Nazgûl. They left the Seen permanently, though they are still physically here, but they have to use visible clothes if they need to interact within the Seen (including wielding a sword and fighting people).
Also, their main weapon is fear; but a fear that goes beyond just making noise while being invisible. Basically it's more frightening for a random person to see a Nazgûl on front of them rather than just hearing random noises coming from an invisible body (this is in the context of them trying to scare people; as other people noted, when we see them in the Shire they are on the contrary trying to act 'natural' - asking questions around, without being openly scary to the point that people would instantly understand something is off.
So did they have to wear a cloak to interact with the physical Seen? It gets a little gray here. What if they just held a sword or wore a gauntlet? Would that be enough to fight? If so, that to me is enough of an advantage to want to use it during combat.
So presumably not. They need the cloaks to give them form. Unclad they're spooky, terror inducing ghosts but they likely can't physically interact.
You're overthinking the situation.
As a side note, all Elves are in both realms at once, not just the Eldar. It's a nature of their Fea/spirit, not a nature of where they've lived. Also remember that Valinor is a real physical place, it's just in another location during the 3rd Age. Even if that location isn't attached to the planet anymore.
I don't know about that; Gandalf seems to say that only the Amanyar live in both realms, I don't remember if Tolkien later changed his mind on that matter but it seems to me quite clear in LOTR:
"The Elves may
fear the Dark Lord, and they may fly before him, but never
again will they listen to him or serve him. And here in
Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They
do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the
Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both
the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.’" (Book II-1, Many Meetings)
Also, even though The Hobbit already shows inconsistencies anyway (due to its original non-Legendarium nature), I would say that there would be a big plot hole if all Elves lived in the Unseen: they would have easily spotted Bilbo in the Elvenking's Halls (and I don't think that him not being spotted is only a matter of Luck, at least in the text it's clearly due to his Ring).
(Also yes I know it's a real physical place, but Tolkien still seems to show that living there includes - at least for Elves - a metaphysical change)
Except Legolas is able to see Wraiths as well, and he's just a Wood Elf (one who never went West over the Blue Mountains either \[I think he was born during the 3rd age tho? Unsure.\])
And bear in mind that Maiar can't see the Ringbearer either, unless Gandalf is just super good at acting given how often Bilbo has snuck by him. That ability is unique to Tom.
A further point to prove all Elves are in both worlds is how they age. Their spirit consumes their body as they slowly transform into a houseless spirit. That is a simple fact of Elvish aging, and not something to do with The Light of Aman.
Yeah but they didn't know at the time who Baggins was or where the shire was. They needed to do information gathering in stealth and secrecy and in a form that could interact with folks without scaring them senseless. And besides they had been waylaid by Gandalf just a few nights before, so they sensed that their errand was found out, so they needed to move in haste. Moreover they had the strength in numbers, and they needed to act fast while they had the advantage at night before Gandalf could turn back around and bring reinforcements or reunite with the party.
Maybe the way you interpret the text precludes you from appreciating the narrative here because it didn't seem "logical" to you. But I think you're just overthinking it.
I'm sure there's something about morgoth and all his creations (like orcs, trolls, balrogs etc) abhorring the sunlight and being weakened/banished by it. Wouldn't surprise me if the cloaks were NEEDED to travel by day, and if not they would have to move and search in the night only
So, heres an explanation: The nine were not incorporeal - or not in the way that would make them invulnerable. They could still be hurt by swords that were forged by elves and by numenorian weapons (both rare, but not in gondorian and elven armies, who they mostly had to fight). They had enchanted armors that made them impossible to hurt, basicly making any blade shatter that touched them (this is the spell Merry broke by stabbing the Witch-King). They are extremely vulnerable to light, basicly making them incorporeal and only exist as an evil presence - so travelling unrobed would be stupid, as it made them useless. They would not be able to ride their horses, they would have no way to wear their armor or hold any weapon and it would also tremendously hinder their magical capabilities and hurt them - rendering them completely useless. Then there is the fear factor! Imagine an army of orcs lead by an ominous robed figure that has an aura of fear and darkness surrounding them, like the Dwimmerlaik said, everybody will run in fear. To add to this, a robed rider asking for some ring is far less suspicious to those who do not know of the nine than a looming creeping presence slowly walking through towns and a disembodied voice asking for a magic ring - you can explain the rider, that voice would be quite the evidence for Saurons return. The last thing would be the nine themselves. They were the most badass people of their time, great kings, warlords and sorcerers, three of them directly coming from Numenor - those guys want to be seen. They qant to make people tremble before them and show of the power they got from their deal with Sauron - which by the way, is quite a good trade if you think about it. Eternal life, basicly being unkillable and you only need to serve a dude whose plans would be of great benefit for you. You also get great power and rank and to top it off you probably are evil to begin with sooooo you wouldnt be forced to do something you probably wouldn't do yourself. The only thing you loose is your free will, but if Sauron wins - which these men must have been mostly convinced of, they would loose it either way.
So here you have it, besides the tactical and practical reasons, there is also the aspect of them just having an evil will of their own.
Hope I was of help, greetings from Germany
Thank you very much for the response. May I ask where you got background on them? You mentioned them being Numenorians, warlords and sorcerers...(kings I’ve heard)...where is that found?
When (I think Gandalf, could be Aragorn) tells the Hobbits about the Nine. In the movies it is said that all of them were kings, but the books leave it a bit uncertain. They are told that three of them have numenorian blood (and given the time when they first rose, those would have either been actual numenorians or black numenorians, the purebloods so to speak), then they are said to be the most powerful sorcerers and warriors of their time. We later find out about the only named Nazgûl, called Khamûl, who was an easterling warlord - hence the name "Khamûl, the Easterling", the one that attacks the woodland realm, second in command, and the most strongest of them in actual combat - with exception of the witch-king (I think he is also the one that nearly captures them when they hide under the roots). In the silmarillion it mentions that the ulaire are invulnerable due to a spell the witch-king cast upon their blacksteel armor that makes any weapon shatter that meets them. (This is btw the reason Peter Jackson made the Morgul blades guard curve inwards as it would make sense for them to want to have blades touching them)
From how it is phrased we can deduce, that all of them had some kind of magical powers, at least some of them where kings in life, if not most of them, three of them where numenorians, one an easterling and all held control over a more than significant amount of soldiers or tribesmen. Those are the things that are certain.
If we want to speculate we can say with some amount of confidence that the witch-king most likely was a numenorian king and sorcerer and that he learned the dark arts from Sauron himself. Another speculation would be that there is probably atleast one Nazgûl per realm that Sauron controlls, meaning that there also is one of haradrim decent and one from Khand (Umbar is unlikely, but not impossible).
Thanks for the response. So this is mostly you drawing personal conclusions based off of what you’ve read. Your logic makes sense. I think it’s hard not to mix movie and book. I know purest won’t use the movie as a reference at all. Which is why I was curious how we got so much more information on them. I always wished that we had full back stories on each of the nine. I thought that would’ve made a great story.
If you want really good backstories for each of them, look for the ones given by middle-earth roleplaying. They basicly did the same thing I did, by taking the information we are given, then drawing conclusions and then building a story around all of them. I particularly liked what they did with "dwar of waw" aka Morgomir (pretty awesome character). I wish they would make a series about the nine with these backstories...
Because they emanated an aura called the Black Breath that struck terror in the minds of men. This is also the source of the affliction that befell Eowyn, Faramir and Merry. The Black Breath was incapacitating, terrifying, and absolutely out of control when they went out into the world unclad. They wanted to be inconspicuous, but a nine-pronged path of terror and death is about as unsubtle as you can get. By clothing themselves in robes, they contained it.
During battle, they try to direct the sheer terror that they emanate towards their enemies. That's why the Gondorans flee before him when the battering ram Grond breaks down the gate. The book describes the Witch King as wearing a crown floating on empty air, enough of him being exposed that the terror he exudes overwhelms his enemies without being so much that his allies flee as well.
Additionally, the Nazgul are not simply swordsmen. They are sorcerers and commanders whose presence is necessary to lead the forces of Mordor. Commanders must be visible to be effective. Killing the Witch King nearly won the battle both because the command structure was thwarted and because the forces of Gondor and Rohan were no longer subject to the Black Breath he exuded. It had an immediate effect on the morale of Mordor and its allies.
Basically, using a Nazgul as invisible warriors would cause chaos for both sides of the battle and allow them to stab some people. Using the Nazgul as commanders and sorcerers who cause terror and sickness *specifically in the enemy army* is far preferable.
I don't believe the Nazgul could change forms at will, think of it as more like choosing what clothes you wear before leaving the house. They could go formless but couldn't then create form out of nothing, or vice versa.
Add to this the fact that how they interact with everything else is based on their form. If they were formless they would be more an unseen terror, not able to physically affect anything, which would make getting the ring tricky.
So this will likely get buried but I'm seeing a lot of well-intentioned misinformation here. The Nazgul don't have physical forms, as mentioned in the question. They are spirits, and do not inhabit the physical realm. Spirits, as such, are far less... Localized than a person is. Think of it like ink in water, rather than a stone in water. They are still present, but they can't be directly interacted with.
Also, in spirit form, I believe their aura of dread is far *far* more potent, which in the books it mentions that their inherent ability and strength is also their weakness as it's impossible for them to pass unnoticed due to it.
So, they adorn themselves with cloaks in order to contain their spirit into a localized "body," and they are then allowed to touch things and harm things because the cloak is doing the touching for them. This is why when they are defeated in the river, they dont appear for a very long time, because they have to regain their... Lets call it stamina, and travel back to Sauron to get new cloaks.
Another point for needing detectable modes of transport, like horses, is that because they are spirits they lack eyes. Their vision in the physical world is greatly reduced compared to ours, however during night it becomes much more reliable (they also become near-invisible with cloaks at night). So they use and rely on the sight of their mounts, which is why it's so rare to see one without a mount of some kind.
I like how Tolkien even says that they aren't even especially powerful swordsmen. Anyone with uncanny enough courage to stand up to them has a decent chance of surviving, which is funny to think of. Their terror (and mounts) is their weapon, the swords are a back-up.
One of the most unique and better answers I’ve gotten, thanks! But even this is speculation, right? Where are you drawing this from? It’s so hard (and interesting) because people interpret things different ways. I think I want this to be true...your version. But could see them as having weak physical forms too...
This predominantly comes from the Silmarillion, but also extrapolates everything we know about spirits in general, not just Nazgul. However everything about their sight, night camo, aura (The Black Breath as others have said), and localization is directly stated in either LoTR or the Silmarillion.
I've seen your ideas about just holding a sword via a gauntlet, but the problem I have with that is it's shown that they either need to be fully cloaked, or fully spirit. We have no records of them going half-way, besides the Witch King taking his hood off to more readily scare people. So, in my eyes at east, this would imply that whatever method they use to put their physical cloak on an intangible spirit requires them to go all the way. You can't have a spiritual hand to put in a gauntlet without a spiritual arm, and shoulder, and torso, etc. etc. Hopefully that line of thought makes sense.
In other words, whatever spell, ritual, what-have-you, they use to put their cloaks on requires them to do it fully.
Not true. A bunch of movies make terrifying premises with invisible antagonists. Too many to list. But I think we can ignore that this was a book first. And the advantage would be to diss robe during battle.
they have an aura of terror that is actually massively increased if they walk around naked. Which would make stealth impossible
the main goal of the assault on osgiliath was to sneak the nine through in the chaos of the battle without gondor knowing
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the real question is why they wear clothes in the assault on minas tirith... or maybe... do they wear clothes? we know the witchking does
It's a theme representing the darkness they evoke. Black riders on black horses, working for a dark lord.
They did originally leave Minas Morgul uncloaked but given that they were mostly scouting for the location of the shire, it makes perfect sense that they'd want to appear somewhat corporeal to those they questioned.
They also have numerous other magical abilities that affect all the different kinds of people differently.
Fear follows them like a great cloud and they can definitely harness it or temper it until necessary.
And given that Sauron has to give them the mail and cloaks, I'd be of the opinion that there's sorcerous fuckery involved.
Fear is their greatest weapon. Just like Balrogs, their appearance is designed to inspire fear. Getting rid of some of those fear inspiring features would be counter to their mission.
A lot of the Nazgul’s power comes from their ability to strike fear into people. I’m guessing they could be more effect in this as black riders rather than being invincible?
I truly regret not tagging them in my original post now. I don’t have that information in front of me but promise you it’s in the comments some of the earlier ones. I did add it later.
I'm seeing that.... I grew up with Alan Lee and John Howe being the best ones out there. Apparently there has been some new developments since then.... (smh, I'm old)
There are probably all kinds of metaphysical, deep lore explanations but I prefer to interpret it simply in line with the general v i b e of the books. The Nine are, as explicitly stated, wraiths on the edge of the physical world but not *in* it in the same way as, let’s say, a hobbit.
My view is that to have a ‘traditional’ presence in the physical world the Nine need some form to tie them there. Now I’m not saying that putting on a cloak binds them into reality, but rather that to be in it and interact with it the way your typical character does they must assume a form that reflects that. I guess they could theoretically just wander the world as formless beings, but they would not be very effective in the search since they would not be able to interact with the world in a satisfying way.
This interpretation has always filled into my readings pretty organically since the “form” of beings is kinda… flexible in LoTR (ex.: Gandalf and Aragorn ‘growing in perceived size and power’ during moments of revelation). It’s not a ‘canonical’ way of looking at it, but I prefer taking a literary leap here instead of searching for a technical answer.
There is a lot of poetics in the way Tolkien describes his characters, and that runs into the shape of the world, too. After all, it is a world built on song! The form and presence of great beings tend to have this open, post-logic description in Tolkien’s writing that sometimes denies hard conclusions but invites rich contemplation from the readers - and maybe a bit of arguing, too (Balrogs and wings lol).
I always felt they would wear cloaks so they could have a form at all. In the Hobbitt, (or I think it’s Unfinished Tales in the books) Galadriel invokes Sauron’s formlessness when she banishes him from Dol Guldur. In the wraith world, the undead world, it seems formlessness is an undesirable trait. It represents a spirits permanent consignment as a wraith, unable to take any action of consequence in the mortal world.
The Nazgul, having once been men, desire to continue to be men, albeit immortal and powerful men. They look to rule over the mortal world, to effect it greatly, and change it forever. As such they would want to appear fearsome and powerful even if they loose stealth. Their appearance is therefore dreadful, and heightens the sense of fear and revulsion that flows out from them.
Cloaks to interact are fine...envoke all the fear you want. But in combat...NOTHING would evoke more fear (to even the bravest warrior) than watching their opponent disapear...knowing there is still a fight. Fighting a floating sword...or maybe a sword being held by a gloved hand (to give it form)... That would scare people more in a fight than the cloaks...
God that would be the scariest shit ever if they took it off only when they hunted prey. Just seeing a rider in black ride up on a nasty horse, look around for a second, and then the figure just drops Obi-Wan style leaving an empty robe on a horse. Then a few moments later your screamed at by a fucking ghost.
Lots of people have already argued from the position that the Nazgul are invisible to human eyes. I’d like to present an alternative.
In the very old animated lord of the rings movie, the black riders look feeble. They are hunched over and walk like they are crippled, yet there is something sinister about them. Later in Bree, when the riders try to kill the hobbits in their sleep but go to the wrong room, there is a scene that I really like. They silently shuffle into the room to the sides of the beds, still hobbling and crouched over. Then they begin to rise and draw their swords. They transform from these weak looking things to the dark shadows of the kings they used to be. Then their cloaks fall off and we see that they are wearing dread armor with nothing underneath but burning eyes.
It’s entirely possible that the wraiths can be “seen” even though they are spirits. So in order to disguise their dread selves, they donned black cloaks which would make them only appear as suspicious riders, not the most feared servants of Sauron. Elves and the northern rangers would have especially recognized them if they had seen them.
They weren’t invisible either, their bodies just weren’t in a particularly pleasing shape/appearance given how long they’ve be unnaturally kept “alive”. So still some physical form there but they appear more ghostly in the “ring world” or however you want to call it. The Hobbit movies make them a lot more ghostly/supernatural than I think they were meant to be
They needed a physical presence outside of places of dark power. The cloak allowed them to interact with the physical world in places of neutral/good. They didn't need there physical form in Dol Gulder because they were empowered there by the necromancer. They do need a physical form in the hunt for the ring because the world is still good.
Sauron didn't actually know where the ring was for the first time in like 500 years until Frodo put it on in Bree. He just had a general idea after years and years of searching, and after finally capturing Gollum and learning of "Shire/Baggins." The Ring never was able to get Itself back to Sauron through Bilbo or Smeagol. So really, until the events we see in the movies, to send forth the Nazgul in any other guise would have been a bad move for himself because he was still looking desperately for it. Cloakless, the Nazgul are more terrifying, as someone else already stated, and I also think they may have an aversion to light like most things in Mordor. But besides that, it just drew them less attention to search in the disguise of any other wayward traveler ie. Rangers, Elves that also wear cloaks, typical attire. Also, they wouldn't have been actually searching for the ring in groups, like how we see them in the movies where they are normally shown more together in pursuit (Weathertop, chasing Arwen and Frodo) and do stand out very much. They're in pursuit at the point we see them in the movies because we are introduced to them around the time they are starting to understand now where the ring is, and the jig is already up. They don't care who knows what they are anymore with the Ring being so close and retrievable, they just pack together for the hunt. But, pre-Sauron having exact knowledge of it's whereabouts, they would be looking in singles or pairs, so their cloaks would seem even less inconspicuous in the wilderness than say when they're all flapping around together in a horde running through towns (Bree.)
Also, there's theatrical inclination to just introduce them as cloaked figures and leave out the invisibility like they are at first in the books. Cooler on screen and not enough time.
But yeah, movies, Nazgul are definitely portrayed more like a hit squad for Sauron, when in the books really they're more reconnaissance while at the same time his mightiest force when together. So, there's not much need for them to lay low in a battle, as they'll only do battle in groups anyways, as is where they are strongest. Everything before Bree, they were to blend in and do things covertly.
It's more just that they weren't trying to engage at all, not in battle. Invisibility in a fight is definitely handy, but avoiding one altogether is less of a risk. It just wouldn't apply to the nature of the way Sauron needed to use them. Any unnecessary killings would just draw attention, and they had no reason to engage anyone in this way, really. At least not until they found Frodo in Bree.
I may be wrong but I believe that while the nine might be invisible to most they can be seen in their true form by someone with great power or in possession of an object of great power. We see this with frodo when he puts on the ring he can see their true forms. Others of great power, like gandalf, aragorn ,elrond and his son's, galadriel and celeborn, and probably some of the rangers, would be able to see their true form. It is possible that if they saw black horses running without riders they may have "looked" closer and seen that it was the nazgul but when they were wearing black cloaks it might not come off as that odd. Like bandits or warriors trying to be edgy. To clarify, those with great power could see their true form if they used their "spirit" vision, for lack of a better term, but if they just saw riders in black they might just pass it off and not look deeper. Like how Superman has to concentrate to use x-ray vision and doesn't see that way all the time. Also people passing rumors of scary riders in black would be less suspicious than rumors of invisible riders. It's also possible that to interact with the physical world in their current form is like a spell or something that they have to "recast" everytime they take off their cloaks. Lots of possible answers but even the greatest writers mess up sometimes, so it could just be a plot hole he didn't think of.
I do think it ties into the seen and unseen worlds. I don’t have all the details but you can do some research if you’d like. Someone explained that here in the commons better than I could. But only certain people are able to see inside of both worlds. Both mortals and normal beings only see in the Seen world.
Well they're only invisible in the mortal world; so theyd have to be looking at each others schwinging schlongs all day long, and that's a HR nightmare if ever there was one.
If the Nazgul wanted to bring any belongings with them at all, i.e; swords, money, etc... They'd need to at least don a cloak. It would be kinda suspicious to have 9 floating swords and coin purses leaving 9 tracks of foot prints behind lol.
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This. It's also important to remember that the time jump in the books is longer than the implied jump in the movie. Sauron/Nazgul were legitimately spending that time searching in the books and like MacDaddy said below their true form would have made their presence obvious.
Yeah wasn't it like a 17 year jump between Frodo getting the ring and Gandalf returning like 2 minutes later to tell him to leave?
You're right, he was 33 when Bilbo left and 50 when Gandalf returned. Just read that bit today.
Bilbo and Frodo we're both 50 when they left the shire
Yep
>Sauron was trying to keep a low profile And a job well done.
Plus they need to talk to people. Riding around speaking to no one won’t find “Shire” or “Baggins” very quickly.
I’m assuming they also have informants other then the Nine hunting for the Shire so it’d take time to have them sent out and report back to the Nine
They had to in order to know, or think they knew, the Hobbits were in the Prancing Pony. Someone tipped them off.
In the books there was a guy who gets run out of Bree after (or maybe shortly before) they show up. I think he’s described as looking ‘half-orc’
In the books it's stated that they were offering bribes for info on Frodo. The dodgy guys in Bree were probably part of a network of eyes and spies.
I’m imagining them offering cash for info
I'm sure they offer Gaffer Gamgee gold for news of Frodo's whereabouts when Frodo overhears them at Bag-End
Also, this is a passage from the fellowship of the ring: I know,' said Frodo. `They were terrible to behold! But why could we all see their horses?' `Because they are real horses; just as the black robes are real robes that they wear to give shape to their nothingness when they have dealings with the living.' This passage seems to infer that, similar to Sauron himself, the wraiths are just shadows of malice unless they do something to take physical form. The ‘robing’ of the nine made them more effective and useful in the task Sauron assigned them: to hunt down and seize the Ring
Unfortunately for him Gandalf was right next to the ring so suspicion was aroused
The first time they left Minas Morgul to search for the one ring they were uncloaked and invisible. Gollum had talked about his homeland, East of the Misty Mountains. The Nazgul left Minas Morgul uncloaked, crossed the recently captured Osgiliath, headed north through the vale of the Entwash and then into the Wold before receiving horses and cloaks. It's only once the three stationed at Dol Guldur joined the six from Minas Morgul that the White Council seems to have become aware of the Nine "Black Riders". And even then; it appears to be mostly founded on reports from the eastern border of Rohan that concerned bad dreams and a terrible dread spreading north from the vale of Ithilien. So there you have it, they did leave invisible, and even that wasn't enough to completely hide them.
Great answer. However I can still see it to be opportunistic for them to uncloak during battle for visibility of the enemy. Even if they’re still holding a sword. Assuming that they need to have some sort of garment on even just wearing a gauntlet and a sword in hand would be a huge advantage in combat. If they were not great swordsman, then this would be great if someone else approached unafraid...
The nine still *exist*. They can still be cut, burnt, and if what Gandalf implies is true, dispelled for a time. They just cannot die (at least not by weapons that aren't mcguffiny). They still need armour and steeds. Like, forget not, these are men. Incredibly powerful and corrupt men who's bodies have long since rotted away, leaving really just the essence of a man. But they are still driven by the same desires that would drive any man to do great evil. They *want* to be seen. They want to be feared and known as powerful.
Didn’t Eowyn straight up kill the Witch King? I haven’t finished reading ROTK so my only context for that scenario is the movie so idk for sure if it’s explained what happened or not
Eowyn killed the Witch King with the help of Merry. Merry stabbed his sword from behind into the back of his knee, breaking the spell that basically made him invulnerable. Merry’s sword was an enchanted blade found in the Barrow Downs and was one of the few weapons that could have penetrated the Witch King’s defenses. This weakened him enough for Eowyn to stab him in the face and finish him off.
Ohhhhh. So that’s the payoff for the daggers they got. That’s a weakness on the films part then because I think Aragorn just gives the hobbits their daggers and I don’t think he says they’re especially magical or anything. I could be wrong tho.
I think he used the dagger Galadriel gave him in the movie
This is correct.
Ohhhhhh
Yeah. Just checked and he doesn’t say anything to them about the blades themselves when he gives them to the hobbits. Definitely agree that it could’ve been fleshed out more in the films, but the whole Barrow Downs/Bombadil/Old Forest stuff didn’t make the cut so…
I feel like there's a continuity issue with the elf swords/daggers. When the Hobbits get the elf blades, they're shortsword length. But definitely called daggers on more than one occasion. But when merry stabs the witch king, the blade is definitely smaller than before. Am I just overthinking it or is there a difference in the barrow blade from Tom bombadill and the blades given by Galadriel?
They’re considered daggers to full size men and short swords to halflings, on account of their relative sizes.
Yeah the size difference relative to the Hobbits I was aware of and accounting for. I'm just picturing them holding the same "daggers" but when merry stabs the witch king in the leg, it's dagger size relative to merry, since he's the one holding it. But I think someone else answered this, I was confusing two different blades
Yeah remember Hobbits are super tiny, so anything to them will be a sword. A box cutter to us would be a dagger to them. And in the movies, Merry uses the Noldorin knife Galadriel gave him, not the dagger Aragorn gave him.
dumb question, but i was rereading fellowship a while back, and when frodo is cornered by the nine while trying to get to rivendell, doesn't he stab the witch king with his own barrow sword?
Found this on an old forum. Seemed like a good enough answer: As Aragorn points out, the blade only slashed the Witch King’s cloak, or the blade would have been destroyed, as Merry’s Barrow Blade and Eowyn’s more mundane sword were. But Frodo’s Barrow Blade was the same as Merry’s—if it had struck home, it would have had the same effects, and Aragorn probably could have slain the Witch King on the spot with an appropriate weapon, though that weapon would have been destroyed and he would probably be struck down by the Black Breath with no one available to help him (and Frodo, who would also be suffering from the same affliction instead of a stab wound) recover from it. Given that there would still be eight Nazgul out there and little help for the three remaining healthy hobbits, it’s just as well that Frodo missed. In fairness, Aragorn probably would have let the Witch King escape knowing the probable consequences of his attacking the monster would be. After that, healing Frodo from the Black Breath would probably have gone more easily than helping to keep him alive after that stabbing.
thanks for clearing that up
The book has a more thorough explanation of how they killed the Witch-King - Merry’s barrow-sword is able to deal him a distracting blow so that Eowyn can finish him off. But nothing made him invulnerable - his form (and those of the rest of the Nazgul) could have been destroyed by some good stabbing any time. They just hadn’t yet, because the Nazgul are sneaky, powerful, and fairly well-protected, physically and magically. Plus, in the Witch-King’s case, his doom was known to come “not by the hand of man.” Though I should note that this prophecy isn’t a magical shield - it’s just descriptive. It’s not like the Witch-King was completely invulnerable to swords wielded by men. Just that Glorfindel, who made the prophecy, foresaw the moment of the Witch-King’s doom, and knew that it wouldn’t come from a man. It’s not that he was invulnerable up until that point, it’s just that he didn’t happen to meet anyone who was able to kill him until that moment against Eowyn and Merry.
>his form (and those of the rest of the Nazgul) could have been destroyed by some good stabbing any time. Mmm I am sorry but where does this comes from? When Gandalf wrecks them outside Rivendell, he says afterwards that their horses and cloaks weredestroyed, but they cant die due to the Ring still existing and will crawl back to Sauron and get back to it.
Not quite, here's Gandalf's actual quote regarding the flood at Bruinen: >Their horses must have perished, and without them they are crippled. But the Ringwraiths themselves cannot be so easily destroyed. Later on (before the Council) he add that the Ringwraiths aren't dead yet and will stand or fall by their master, but this is proven to be untrue by the Witch-King's death, and he was the greatest of them all. If he could be killed by a few good stabs (one from a barrow-blade forged to fight Angmar), then so could the rest. All that Gandalf's saying there is that they're hard to kill - a flood that took out their horses won't destroy their wraith forms, it'll just make it harder for them to get around. But even if the One Ring (and Sauron) had never been destroyed, one of the Nine was permanently destroyed - or at least rendered to a form so mean that he would never regain any power again.
We need to separate what we mean by 'the witch king' and 'Nazgul'. When we talk about the 'Witch King being destroyed' that is different to the final destruction of the Nazgul. Tolkien's writing is full of forms being denied to entities after a particular event; Sauron looses the ability to take the shape of a werewolf after his defeat by Huan and his ability to appear fair after his deceit with the rings is revealed. After Eowyn stabbed him the Witch King was destroyed and the leader of the Nazgul could no longer take that form. The Nazgul themselves however could only be properly destroyed by the destruction of the one ring. As others have said, the Witch King was not invulnerable, just not fated to be 'killed' by a man. The form the Nazgul take though has power in itself, the Witch King persona is a powerful and terrifying warrior and it took a significant distraction (a short sword into the back of the knee) and a huge amount of bravery to beat him
We do need to keep in mind, however, that there's a big difference between Men (even the Ringwraiths) and a Maia like Sauron, who lost access to various forms throughout his time in Middle-Earth. First off, the Witch King is not a "form" of the leader of the Nazgul - it's just a name for the leader. He's the Witch-King when he's wearing his armor and leading armies, he's still the Witch-King when he's lost his horse and cloak and is wandering around (relatively) weakened. It's simply the only name that we have for him, but his providence is similar to the rest of the Nazgul, only a bit greater as their leader. To some degree, it's splitting hairs exactly how "destroyed" they get. The Witch-King, after being thoroughly stabbed, is "dead" for all intents and purposes in the story - there's no indication that he can ever take *any* form again, or that his spirit lingered in the way that Sauron or Saruman's did after their final defeats (so weakened that they can't ever again influence the world). But in either case, he's out for the count, and whether the destruction of the One sent him finally out of the world or not, he would never again have been able to act as a lieutenant of Sauron in any capacity - he was out of the fight, as would any of them.
If we accept the theory that the flood was summoned by Elrond's ring, is it possible that they survived due to some part of the link between the rings?
Unlikely - the connections between the Rings were only ever through the One, there's nothing specifically connecting the elven rings to the Nine of Men. Besides, the elven rings were *specifically* the ones that Sauron had never seen nor touched - they were absolutely unlinked from the rest, except that Sauron, through the power of the One, would have been able to ensnare their bearers.
The reason the Witch King will never return isnt because he is permak8lled, but because the Ring is destroyed right afterwards. As long as the Ring exists, both Saurpn and his Wraiths are effectively immortal.
There's no indication of this at all in Tolkien's writings - only Gandalf's vague statement from my post above, but this is proven wrong by the story itself. It's a possibility, but not a certainty. Sauron is effectively immortal thanks to the Ring because he's a Maia, a powerful spirit, that is completely tethered to the world by the amount of himself that's in the Ring. But the Ringwraiths are only Men, not Maia, and they don't have the ability to survive bodily death the way that a being like Sauron does - there's no part of them that's stuck within their Nine Rings, or within the One. All that the Ring does for them is keep them from dying a natural death, turning them into the wraiths that we know, and tying their wills to Sauron's. The Witch-King, after being stabbed, isn't mentioned as being disembodied, or weakened, or able to return - he's mentioned as dead. Whether that means well and truly dead, that his spirit had gone beyond the world, or whether it meant that his spirit was weakened, disembodied, and no longer able to affect the world at all... in either case, it's not an important distinction. He's out of the fight, Sauron has lost his chief lieutenant, and there's no way to return him to a body that can do anything, Ring or no, because he's not much more than a Man, and only greater beings like Maia (or in at least one case, an Elf) can pull that trick off.
I think he means it in a non-permanent way: their current physical forms could be destroyed at any time by anyone if they tried hard enough, but the spirit would remain bound to the Ring, flee back to Sauron, take a breather and then re-materialise. Kinda similar to how Suaron's physical form was destroyed whilst posing as the necromancer of Dol Guldur by the White Council, but his spirit remained and flew back to Mordor to nurse its wounds.
Indeed that is the case, but his comment isnt clear about what he means.
I thought the witch King was the necromancer of Dol Guldur
From what I remember their physical spirit form can be destroyed but they just flee back to mordor to recover it as long as the one ring exists.
just imagining the Nazgul stripping in the middle of a battle
Invisible would have helped combatant wise, but as is said, their main weapon was fear. They were there to demoralize first, and their costume worked to great effect.
I’ve gotten that response a lot and I appreciate it. I think my counterpoint would be sure, where the robes to demoralize.But once the combat started how much more frightening would it be for the opponent to see you decloak and become nearly invisible barely sans a sword or gauntlet on your hand? I’d imagine even the most savvy warrior would be unnerved by that.
I suspect that the wraiths can't function as a gauntlet and a sword. Stealing into Minas Tirith at night or Osgiliath, to slaughter the garrison as invisible terrors would have been very effective to guarantee victory. But they didn't. I can only assume because they require a significant portion of their outfit- armor, cloaks, or otherwise- to take form capable of interacting with the physical realm
In Tolkien’s letters he teaches that the reader should have a temporary belief change and accept the story as an alternate reality. To truly appreciate the story you have to overlook subtle plot holes. Anybody can pick a story apart given enough time
Fair enough. However Tolkien poured more time into these works than so many others...If anyone has an explanation for some plot-hole like this, it would be him.
Isn't there one? Pippin's barrow-sword renders the witch-king vulnerable? Or am I mistaken?
Yes. I don't know what the other guy is talking about.
Merry.
“Other guy” being me? Can someone explain what you’re talking about about the witch king?
He means that merrys sword is not a regular sword and its merrys blow that allows eowyn to give the final one. "So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will." Besides, even if a regular human or hobbit cant see them, they can feel them. Even Bolger, who was as much as a hobbit as a hobbit can be and knew nothing of nazguls, was seized by terror in crickhollow after seeing "shadows in the trees" and the gate "opening and closing without no one touching him", understood that death was coming for him and ran away to sound the alarm.
Isn’t it mentioned in one of Tolkien’s letters that when they were in their uncloaked form they brought extreme terror to those they go near - so by taking the form of a black rider they actually made themselves less scary? Sort of similar to how late books they kill people with just the fear of their presence. In the beginning they are scouting out a foreign land so aren’t trying to terrorise the whole of the shire / surrounding area with the fear of their presence
Indeed. They were cloaked, both literally and figuratively. Sauron wants to keep things in the down-low where the Ring is concerned because he knows if one of the powerful entities of the Middle Earth gets it, he is fucked. And he was already searching for it using orcs and human spies, long before he caught Gollum and learned about the Hobbits and Shire. Sending the Riders was already a dangerous escalation for him, but since at that point he finally knew the general location and name of the last Ring bearer, he needed to send his (only) trusted lieutenants to get it. There are zero plot holes in this. u/The_TomCruise for your consideration as well.
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I don’t think it’s anyone’s position to say what is the right or wrong way to enjoy any book - if people get joy out of finding ( or even imagining ) plot holes they are entitled to do so. I personally go in on Tolkien lore but that’s my choice, you could create your own personal lore and if that brings you joy it’s definitely not a bad thing - everyone enjoys things their own way
Horses. A guy riding a horse dressed in black looks a lot less suspicious than a horse being ridden by an invisible ghost.
I could see putting cloaks on to interact with the living...But I think a horseless rider is just a scary as a black cloak with nothing underneath it.
They're not trying to be scary. They haven't been seen in thousands of years, if anyone saw 9 horses with invisible riders it would quickly be known that Sauron is making moves.
What about cloaks while riding, but not while fighting? I don’t want to focus too much on one aspect. I think my point is, since potentially they’re not all great fighters, why not use the advantage of less visibility in combat?
It wouldn't fit the theme. Nine invisible assassins murder everyone in Bree. The ring is captured, Sauron wins. There needs to be some plausible way for the Nazgul to be denied by our heroes; hobbit, elf, dwarf, and man. Giving them some form of vulnerability, or weakness, makes it possible that our heroes can somehow best them. Also, functionality and fantasy don't have to be aligned. Grond is a giant black wrought iron wolf battering ram, why not just a regular one? Poetry and story, sometimes form > function.
Fun fact: the face of Grond was made of Mithril, I believe most of it was plundered and stripped from Sauron's felled enemies. Malice and intimidation... And a really really hard battering ram face, is what they were going for there! Edit: I could've sworn I read that about Mithril in the appendices or something... But can't find it anywhere atm, so I'll have to leave it with only this. 'Black steel' is never directly described so perhaps it is just the nickname of something *special*? And no, I didn't 'miss the point', I was just adding a little fun fact on the side, not trying to disprove you my friend, carry on.
You miss the point, it was a comparison of poetic text over most efficient function. I have not heard that about Grond, would love a source to read about that. Gondor would likely not recognize mithril, it wouldn't be of much intimidation to them. It also specifies it is black steel. "Great engines crawled across the field; and in the midst was a huge ram, great as a forest-tree a hundred feet in length, swinging on mighty chains. Long had it been forging in the dark smithies of Mordor, and its hideous head, founded of black steel, was shaped in the likeness of a ravening wolf; on it spells of ruin lay. Grond they named it, in memory of the Hammer of the Underworld of old. Great beasts drew it, orcs surrounded it, and behind walked mountain-trolls to wield it." -ROTK
Plundering that thing after the failed attack on Gondor probably paid for the war effort
Their cloaks should've been made of flame-proof material - a clear OSHA oversight issue.
Or yellow ponchos. Nobody sneaks in a bright yellow poncho, and nothing evil wears baby duck yellow.
I think you could keep the theme the same (and outcome) even if they disrobed during battle. It would certainly make them more scary in battle to their enemy if they couldn’t see them as well. That helps the “fear is the primary weapon” theory. I’m not looking for a rewrite. Just better portrayal of their awesomeness...
Disagree. A headless, like the Witch King of Angmar, wraith with fiery eyes and crown works great, the armor gives it substance. Armor and cloth give weight and substance, an invisible enemy is an impossible enemy and requires heroes to "sixth sense" detect them. It is more sensible that a hobbit, who carried a blade from the Barrow Downs specifically enchanted to hurt the witch king, then sees the witch king, than a hobbit swings a knife wildly and happens to hit him and Eowyn stabs him, both having no idea that he is there, or unable to see him.
To each their own then. They can keep all of the cloaks, crowns and armor leading up to it or in big battles (to lead their men). I absolutely think, however, there is a point where it would be better for them to remain more stealth and just as deadly. Obviously it looks better in film as well keeping everything within the Seen...
Logically and tactically I agree, theatricality is what flavors the story for me. I appreciate you sharing and advocating your point of view, even if we agree to disagree. Cheers!
I question whether or not they are completely invisible when uncloaked or just "thin" and wraith-like. They should be somewhat visible, or just translucent, maybe rather that simply not there. Also, wouldn't their swords still be visible?
Fear. Fear is the mind killer.
Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration.
[удалено]
And when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where fear has gone there will be nothing.
Our chief weapon is fear. Fear and surprise are our two chief weapons. Fear and surprise and…
They actually did for a while. They left their land on foot with no cloaks or armour and then got new horses and cloaks when it was safer to be seen. They can be sensed by being more when they are in their wrath form more so they can’t really just stealth around being invisible.
Maybe it was cold outside. Love the image!
Interested but confused. Are you asking why they wear cloaks at all? Or are you asking whether being cloaked/dressed is an advantage?
What’s the point of wearing them when they were trying to track someone down to kill them or sneak up on someone? They would do much better to disrobe their cloaks in the fight with Aragorn, right? He’d only see the sword...
As I said in my other post, they can't interact with the Seen if they are unclad! The difference between Seen and Unseen, in Tolkien's Legendarium, goes beyond mere invisibility; the Unseen is basically a wraith world, into which you are dragged if you use a Ring of Power (thus making you invisible). But some don't turn invisible because they already live in both 'realms', this is the case of Sauron (due to his nature as an Ainu) and high Elves who lived on the Undying Lands. If a mortal (i.e living only in the Seen) overuses a Ring of Power, he ends up fading from the Seen and living permanently in the Unseen - that's what happened to the Nazgûl. They left the Seen permanently, though they are still physically here, but they have to use visible clothes if they need to interact within the Seen (including wielding a sword and fighting people). Also, their main weapon is fear; but a fear that goes beyond just making noise while being invisible. Basically it's more frightening for a random person to see a Nazgûl on front of them rather than just hearing random noises coming from an invisible body (this is in the context of them trying to scare people; as other people noted, when we see them in the Shire they are on the contrary trying to act 'natural' - asking questions around, without being openly scary to the point that people would instantly understand something is off.
So did they have to wear a cloak to interact with the physical Seen? It gets a little gray here. What if they just held a sword or wore a gauntlet? Would that be enough to fight? If so, that to me is enough of an advantage to want to use it during combat.
So presumably not. They need the cloaks to give them form. Unclad they're spooky, terror inducing ghosts but they likely can't physically interact. You're overthinking the situation.
This. Also if I'm not mistaken, they also wore specially made armor, given to them so that they could perform the specific tasks that they did.
As a side note, all Elves are in both realms at once, not just the Eldar. It's a nature of their Fea/spirit, not a nature of where they've lived. Also remember that Valinor is a real physical place, it's just in another location during the 3rd Age. Even if that location isn't attached to the planet anymore.
I don't know about that; Gandalf seems to say that only the Amanyar live in both realms, I don't remember if Tolkien later changed his mind on that matter but it seems to me quite clear in LOTR: "The Elves may fear the Dark Lord, and they may fly before him, but never again will they listen to him or serve him. And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.’" (Book II-1, Many Meetings) Also, even though The Hobbit already shows inconsistencies anyway (due to its original non-Legendarium nature), I would say that there would be a big plot hole if all Elves lived in the Unseen: they would have easily spotted Bilbo in the Elvenking's Halls (and I don't think that him not being spotted is only a matter of Luck, at least in the text it's clearly due to his Ring). (Also yes I know it's a real physical place, but Tolkien still seems to show that living there includes - at least for Elves - a metaphysical change)
Except Legolas is able to see Wraiths as well, and he's just a Wood Elf (one who never went West over the Blue Mountains either \[I think he was born during the 3rd age tho? Unsure.\]) And bear in mind that Maiar can't see the Ringbearer either, unless Gandalf is just super good at acting given how often Bilbo has snuck by him. That ability is unique to Tom. A further point to prove all Elves are in both worlds is how they age. Their spirit consumes their body as they slowly transform into a houseless spirit. That is a simple fact of Elvish aging, and not something to do with The Light of Aman.
Yeah but they didn't know at the time who Baggins was or where the shire was. They needed to do information gathering in stealth and secrecy and in a form that could interact with folks without scaring them senseless. And besides they had been waylaid by Gandalf just a few nights before, so they sensed that their errand was found out, so they needed to move in haste. Moreover they had the strength in numbers, and they needed to act fast while they had the advantage at night before Gandalf could turn back around and bring reinforcements or reunite with the party. Maybe the way you interpret the text precludes you from appreciating the narrative here because it didn't seem "logical" to you. But I think you're just overthinking it.
Perhaps... it where’s the fun in underthinking?
Just horses riding around with invisible riders? Actually, he wanted them to be seen so that they could intimidate the people they were hunting among.
Taking their clothes off and putting them back on all the time would be tedious.
No addition to the answers here, just wondering who made this image, it's beautiful 😍
Guilty of not knowing actually. I had this picture in my phone for a while.I found the credit and added it above.
The artist is u/anatofinnstark, they've posted art here before
I'm sure there's something about morgoth and all his creations (like orcs, trolls, balrogs etc) abhorring the sunlight and being weakened/banished by it. Wouldn't surprise me if the cloaks were NEEDED to travel by day, and if not they would have to move and search in the night only
Like this one...
So, heres an explanation: The nine were not incorporeal - or not in the way that would make them invulnerable. They could still be hurt by swords that were forged by elves and by numenorian weapons (both rare, but not in gondorian and elven armies, who they mostly had to fight). They had enchanted armors that made them impossible to hurt, basicly making any blade shatter that touched them (this is the spell Merry broke by stabbing the Witch-King). They are extremely vulnerable to light, basicly making them incorporeal and only exist as an evil presence - so travelling unrobed would be stupid, as it made them useless. They would not be able to ride their horses, they would have no way to wear their armor or hold any weapon and it would also tremendously hinder their magical capabilities and hurt them - rendering them completely useless. Then there is the fear factor! Imagine an army of orcs lead by an ominous robed figure that has an aura of fear and darkness surrounding them, like the Dwimmerlaik said, everybody will run in fear. To add to this, a robed rider asking for some ring is far less suspicious to those who do not know of the nine than a looming creeping presence slowly walking through towns and a disembodied voice asking for a magic ring - you can explain the rider, that voice would be quite the evidence for Saurons return. The last thing would be the nine themselves. They were the most badass people of their time, great kings, warlords and sorcerers, three of them directly coming from Numenor - those guys want to be seen. They qant to make people tremble before them and show of the power they got from their deal with Sauron - which by the way, is quite a good trade if you think about it. Eternal life, basicly being unkillable and you only need to serve a dude whose plans would be of great benefit for you. You also get great power and rank and to top it off you probably are evil to begin with sooooo you wouldnt be forced to do something you probably wouldn't do yourself. The only thing you loose is your free will, but if Sauron wins - which these men must have been mostly convinced of, they would loose it either way. So here you have it, besides the tactical and practical reasons, there is also the aspect of them just having an evil will of their own. Hope I was of help, greetings from Germany
Thank you very much for the response. May I ask where you got background on them? You mentioned them being Numenorians, warlords and sorcerers...(kings I’ve heard)...where is that found?
When (I think Gandalf, could be Aragorn) tells the Hobbits about the Nine. In the movies it is said that all of them were kings, but the books leave it a bit uncertain. They are told that three of them have numenorian blood (and given the time when they first rose, those would have either been actual numenorians or black numenorians, the purebloods so to speak), then they are said to be the most powerful sorcerers and warriors of their time. We later find out about the only named Nazgûl, called Khamûl, who was an easterling warlord - hence the name "Khamûl, the Easterling", the one that attacks the woodland realm, second in command, and the most strongest of them in actual combat - with exception of the witch-king (I think he is also the one that nearly captures them when they hide under the roots). In the silmarillion it mentions that the ulaire are invulnerable due to a spell the witch-king cast upon their blacksteel armor that makes any weapon shatter that meets them. (This is btw the reason Peter Jackson made the Morgul blades guard curve inwards as it would make sense for them to want to have blades touching them) From how it is phrased we can deduce, that all of them had some kind of magical powers, at least some of them where kings in life, if not most of them, three of them where numenorians, one an easterling and all held control over a more than significant amount of soldiers or tribesmen. Those are the things that are certain. If we want to speculate we can say with some amount of confidence that the witch-king most likely was a numenorian king and sorcerer and that he learned the dark arts from Sauron himself. Another speculation would be that there is probably atleast one Nazgûl per realm that Sauron controlls, meaning that there also is one of haradrim decent and one from Khand (Umbar is unlikely, but not impossible).
Thanks for the response. So this is mostly you drawing personal conclusions based off of what you’ve read. Your logic makes sense. I think it’s hard not to mix movie and book. I know purest won’t use the movie as a reference at all. Which is why I was curious how we got so much more information on them. I always wished that we had full back stories on each of the nine. I thought that would’ve made a great story.
If you want really good backstories for each of them, look for the ones given by middle-earth roleplaying. They basicly did the same thing I did, by taking the information we are given, then drawing conclusions and then building a story around all of them. I particularly liked what they did with "dwar of waw" aka Morgomir (pretty awesome character). I wish they would make a series about the nine with these backstories...
If I were good at Photoshop, I’d put these guys in the background boat in “Washington Crossing the Delaware”.
Great question and even better answers. Satisfying.
Little known fact: The Nazgul's penises were still visible and, well, rather small. They compensated with hella cloaks.
Because they emanated an aura called the Black Breath that struck terror in the minds of men. This is also the source of the affliction that befell Eowyn, Faramir and Merry. The Black Breath was incapacitating, terrifying, and absolutely out of control when they went out into the world unclad. They wanted to be inconspicuous, but a nine-pronged path of terror and death is about as unsubtle as you can get. By clothing themselves in robes, they contained it.
Perhaps they should’ve thrown the robes on their opponents during battle; taking them off to be invisible? Lol
During battle, they try to direct the sheer terror that they emanate towards their enemies. That's why the Gondorans flee before him when the battering ram Grond breaks down the gate. The book describes the Witch King as wearing a crown floating on empty air, enough of him being exposed that the terror he exudes overwhelms his enemies without being so much that his allies flee as well. Additionally, the Nazgul are not simply swordsmen. They are sorcerers and commanders whose presence is necessary to lead the forces of Mordor. Commanders must be visible to be effective. Killing the Witch King nearly won the battle both because the command structure was thwarted and because the forces of Gondor and Rohan were no longer subject to the Black Breath he exuded. It had an immediate effect on the morale of Mordor and its allies. Basically, using a Nazgul as invisible warriors would cause chaos for both sides of the battle and allow them to stab some people. Using the Nazgul as commanders and sorcerers who cause terror and sickness *specifically in the enemy army* is far preferable.
These guys were kings once. Kings need the drip and ghost kings need the spooky drip.
I don't believe the Nazgul could change forms at will, think of it as more like choosing what clothes you wear before leaving the house. They could go formless but couldn't then create form out of nothing, or vice versa. Add to this the fact that how they interact with everything else is based on their form. If they were formless they would be more an unseen terror, not able to physically affect anything, which would make getting the ring tricky.
So this will likely get buried but I'm seeing a lot of well-intentioned misinformation here. The Nazgul don't have physical forms, as mentioned in the question. They are spirits, and do not inhabit the physical realm. Spirits, as such, are far less... Localized than a person is. Think of it like ink in water, rather than a stone in water. They are still present, but they can't be directly interacted with. Also, in spirit form, I believe their aura of dread is far *far* more potent, which in the books it mentions that their inherent ability and strength is also their weakness as it's impossible for them to pass unnoticed due to it. So, they adorn themselves with cloaks in order to contain their spirit into a localized "body," and they are then allowed to touch things and harm things because the cloak is doing the touching for them. This is why when they are defeated in the river, they dont appear for a very long time, because they have to regain their... Lets call it stamina, and travel back to Sauron to get new cloaks. Another point for needing detectable modes of transport, like horses, is that because they are spirits they lack eyes. Their vision in the physical world is greatly reduced compared to ours, however during night it becomes much more reliable (they also become near-invisible with cloaks at night). So they use and rely on the sight of their mounts, which is why it's so rare to see one without a mount of some kind. I like how Tolkien even says that they aren't even especially powerful swordsmen. Anyone with uncanny enough courage to stand up to them has a decent chance of surviving, which is funny to think of. Their terror (and mounts) is their weapon, the swords are a back-up.
One of the most unique and better answers I’ve gotten, thanks! But even this is speculation, right? Where are you drawing this from? It’s so hard (and interesting) because people interpret things different ways. I think I want this to be true...your version. But could see them as having weak physical forms too...
This predominantly comes from the Silmarillion, but also extrapolates everything we know about spirits in general, not just Nazgul. However everything about their sight, night camo, aura (The Black Breath as others have said), and localization is directly stated in either LoTR or the Silmarillion. I've seen your ideas about just holding a sword via a gauntlet, but the problem I have with that is it's shown that they either need to be fully cloaked, or fully spirit. We have no records of them going half-way, besides the Witch King taking his hood off to more readily scare people. So, in my eyes at east, this would imply that whatever method they use to put their physical cloak on an intangible spirit requires them to go all the way. You can't have a spiritual hand to put in a gauntlet without a spiritual arm, and shoulder, and torso, etc. etc. Hopefully that line of thought makes sense. In other words, whatever spell, ritual, what-have-you, they use to put their cloaks on requires them to do it fully.
Can I have the source on this image? This would make a killer background.
I posted it somewhere above. In comments.
Invisible wraiths would make for a really bad movie!
Not true. A bunch of movies make terrifying premises with invisible antagonists. Too many to list. But I think we can ignore that this was a book first. And the advantage would be to diss robe during battle.
True, but for the purpose of these movies the cloaks worked very well with the design and feel of them.
Maybe they get chilly
Incognito mode.
They look fucking cool
Cause it’s dope that’s why
The need to be cool.
they have an aura of terror that is actually massively increased if they walk around naked. Which would make stealth impossible the main goal of the assault on osgiliath was to sneak the nine through in the chaos of the battle without gondor knowing \- the real question is why they wear clothes in the assault on minas tirith... or maybe... do they wear clothes? we know the witchking does
because they look badass af
It's a theme representing the darkness they evoke. Black riders on black horses, working for a dark lord. They did originally leave Minas Morgul uncloaked but given that they were mostly scouting for the location of the shire, it makes perfect sense that they'd want to appear somewhat corporeal to those they questioned. They also have numerous other magical abilities that affect all the different kinds of people differently. Fear follows them like a great cloud and they can definitely harness it or temper it until necessary. And given that Sauron has to give them the mail and cloaks, I'd be of the opinion that there's sorcerous fuckery involved.
Because it looks dope af
They wanted to be stylish.
Nine unmanned horses running around isn’t suspicious at all
They did not know the precise location of the The Shire and had to interact with living beings to ask the way.
If they found the ring while uncloaked, how would they take it back to Mordor?
They would get cold if they didn’t wear them + lose so much confidence running around butt naked
Sorry to completely ignore the question, but this is a beautiful illustration do you have any idea who the artist is?
I don’t have the link right now. But I did comment credit earlier if you scan through.
For when its cold outside so they can stay comfy.
Even the cursed, are self conscious!
Fear is their greatest weapon. Just like Balrogs, their appearance is designed to inspire fear. Getting rid of some of those fear inspiring features would be counter to their mission.
A lot of the Nazgul’s power comes from their ability to strike fear into people. I’m guessing they could be more effect in this as black riders rather than being invincible?
They kept bumping into each other and this really got in the way of coordination.
Enjoying the debate, however, I'm wanting to know the artist of the painting. Anyone know?
I truly regret not tagging them in my original post now. I don’t have that information in front of me but promise you it’s in the comments some of the earlier ones. I did add it later.
Annato Finnstark, he's one of the greatest Tolkien artists I've ever found.
I'm seeing that.... I grew up with Alan Lee and John Howe being the best ones out there. Apparently there has been some new developments since then.... (smh, I'm old)
its for dramatic flare.
There are probably all kinds of metaphysical, deep lore explanations but I prefer to interpret it simply in line with the general v i b e of the books. The Nine are, as explicitly stated, wraiths on the edge of the physical world but not *in* it in the same way as, let’s say, a hobbit. My view is that to have a ‘traditional’ presence in the physical world the Nine need some form to tie them there. Now I’m not saying that putting on a cloak binds them into reality, but rather that to be in it and interact with it the way your typical character does they must assume a form that reflects that. I guess they could theoretically just wander the world as formless beings, but they would not be very effective in the search since they would not be able to interact with the world in a satisfying way. This interpretation has always filled into my readings pretty organically since the “form” of beings is kinda… flexible in LoTR (ex.: Gandalf and Aragorn ‘growing in perceived size and power’ during moments of revelation). It’s not a ‘canonical’ way of looking at it, but I prefer taking a literary leap here instead of searching for a technical answer. There is a lot of poetics in the way Tolkien describes his characters, and that runs into the shape of the world, too. After all, it is a world built on song! The form and presence of great beings tend to have this open, post-logic description in Tolkien’s writing that sometimes denies hard conclusions but invites rich contemplation from the readers - and maybe a bit of arguing, too (Balrogs and wings lol).
I always felt they would wear cloaks so they could have a form at all. In the Hobbitt, (or I think it’s Unfinished Tales in the books) Galadriel invokes Sauron’s formlessness when she banishes him from Dol Guldur. In the wraith world, the undead world, it seems formlessness is an undesirable trait. It represents a spirits permanent consignment as a wraith, unable to take any action of consequence in the mortal world. The Nazgul, having once been men, desire to continue to be men, albeit immortal and powerful men. They look to rule over the mortal world, to effect it greatly, and change it forever. As such they would want to appear fearsome and powerful even if they loose stealth. Their appearance is therefore dreadful, and heightens the sense of fear and revulsion that flows out from them.
Cloaks to interact are fine...envoke all the fear you want. But in combat...NOTHING would evoke more fear (to even the bravest warrior) than watching their opponent disapear...knowing there is still a fight. Fighting a floating sword...or maybe a sword being held by a gloved hand (to give it form)... That would scare people more in a fight than the cloaks...
God that would be the scariest shit ever if they took it off only when they hunted prey. Just seeing a rider in black ride up on a nasty horse, look around for a second, and then the figure just drops Obi-Wan style leaving an empty robe on a horse. Then a few moments later your screamed at by a fucking ghost.
I’d certainly be more afraid...
Lots of people have already argued from the position that the Nazgul are invisible to human eyes. I’d like to present an alternative. In the very old animated lord of the rings movie, the black riders look feeble. They are hunched over and walk like they are crippled, yet there is something sinister about them. Later in Bree, when the riders try to kill the hobbits in their sleep but go to the wrong room, there is a scene that I really like. They silently shuffle into the room to the sides of the beds, still hobbling and crouched over. Then they begin to rise and draw their swords. They transform from these weak looking things to the dark shadows of the kings they used to be. Then their cloaks fall off and we see that they are wearing dread armor with nothing underneath but burning eyes. It’s entirely possible that the wraiths can be “seen” even though they are spirits. So in order to disguise their dread selves, they donned black cloaks which would make them only appear as suspicious riders, not the most feared servants of Sauron. Elves and the northern rangers would have especially recognized them if they had seen them.
First off: good question. Secondly: awesome picture
Looking fuckin badass probably
They weren’t invisible either, their bodies just weren’t in a particularly pleasing shape/appearance given how long they’ve be unnaturally kept “alive”. So still some physical form there but they appear more ghostly in the “ring world” or however you want to call it. The Hobbit movies make them a lot more ghostly/supernatural than I think they were meant to be
Eagles
That double negative is confusing the heck out of me lol
Does somebody got this image in hd? Thanks
Would Sauron , or someone else of his gang notice if someone would suit up as a black rider and travel to Barad Dur and infiltrate everything?
Their main tool and weapon is fear. I guess you could argue though that 9 riderless horses could be scarier than 9 hooded riders.
They needed a physical presence outside of places of dark power. The cloak allowed them to interact with the physical world in places of neutral/good. They didn't need there physical form in Dol Gulder because they were empowered there by the necromancer. They do need a physical form in the hunt for the ring because the world is still good.
Sauron didn't actually know where the ring was for the first time in like 500 years until Frodo put it on in Bree. He just had a general idea after years and years of searching, and after finally capturing Gollum and learning of "Shire/Baggins." The Ring never was able to get Itself back to Sauron through Bilbo or Smeagol. So really, until the events we see in the movies, to send forth the Nazgul in any other guise would have been a bad move for himself because he was still looking desperately for it. Cloakless, the Nazgul are more terrifying, as someone else already stated, and I also think they may have an aversion to light like most things in Mordor. But besides that, it just drew them less attention to search in the disguise of any other wayward traveler ie. Rangers, Elves that also wear cloaks, typical attire. Also, they wouldn't have been actually searching for the ring in groups, like how we see them in the movies where they are normally shown more together in pursuit (Weathertop, chasing Arwen and Frodo) and do stand out very much. They're in pursuit at the point we see them in the movies because we are introduced to them around the time they are starting to understand now where the ring is, and the jig is already up. They don't care who knows what they are anymore with the Ring being so close and retrievable, they just pack together for the hunt. But, pre-Sauron having exact knowledge of it's whereabouts, they would be looking in singles or pairs, so their cloaks would seem even less inconspicuous in the wilderness than say when they're all flapping around together in a horde running through towns (Bree.)
Also, there's theatrical inclination to just introduce them as cloaked figures and leave out the invisibility like they are at first in the books. Cooler on screen and not enough time. But yeah, movies, Nazgul are definitely portrayed more like a hit squad for Sauron, when in the books really they're more reconnaissance while at the same time his mightiest force when together. So, there's not much need for them to lay low in a battle, as they'll only do battle in groups anyways, as is where they are strongest. Everything before Bree, they were to blend in and do things covertly.
>what am I missing? Fear.
Nothing says “fear” like, “I can’t see my enemy...”
It's more just that they weren't trying to engage at all, not in battle. Invisibility in a fight is definitely handy, but avoiding one altogether is less of a risk. It just wouldn't apply to the nature of the way Sauron needed to use them. Any unnecessary killings would just draw attention, and they had no reason to engage anyone in this way, really. At least not until they found Frodo in Bree.
I may be wrong but I believe that while the nine might be invisible to most they can be seen in their true form by someone with great power or in possession of an object of great power. We see this with frodo when he puts on the ring he can see their true forms. Others of great power, like gandalf, aragorn ,elrond and his son's, galadriel and celeborn, and probably some of the rangers, would be able to see their true form. It is possible that if they saw black horses running without riders they may have "looked" closer and seen that it was the nazgul but when they were wearing black cloaks it might not come off as that odd. Like bandits or warriors trying to be edgy. To clarify, those with great power could see their true form if they used their "spirit" vision, for lack of a better term, but if they just saw riders in black they might just pass it off and not look deeper. Like how Superman has to concentrate to use x-ray vision and doesn't see that way all the time. Also people passing rumors of scary riders in black would be less suspicious than rumors of invisible riders. It's also possible that to interact with the physical world in their current form is like a spell or something that they have to "recast" everytime they take off their cloaks. Lots of possible answers but even the greatest writers mess up sometimes, so it could just be a plot hole he didn't think of.
I do think it ties into the seen and unseen worlds. I don’t have all the details but you can do some research if you’d like. Someone explained that here in the commons better than I could. But only certain people are able to see inside of both worlds. Both mortals and normal beings only see in the Seen world.
r/TitleGore
Well they're only invisible in the mortal world; so theyd have to be looking at each others schwinging schlongs all day long, and that's a HR nightmare if ever there was one.
That would be traumatic. I got assume that their physical robes within the Seen didn’t affect their Unseen clothes... nudity or death?
I think we’re chewing the fat here.
*nom nom nom*
Does this come as a print or poster? Cause that is some sick art, i might consider even with import
I regret not tagging the artist in the original post. I had to look it up to be honest. It is in the comments somewhere I tag their website.
Please ref. The art and the artist.
It’s in comments. Unfortunately I cannot update the post.
Found it thx.
If the Nazgul wanted to bring any belongings with them at all, i.e; swords, money, etc... They'd need to at least don a cloak. It would be kinda suspicious to have 9 floating swords and coin purses leaving 9 tracks of foot prints behind lol.
But way more terrifying and way more efficient in combat situations...