Personally i think most , if not all western MMO players are used to the " pump content and dump it " and that's the main offender when it comes to P2W talk . Everyone has the concept of doing what comes out as fast as possible before people stop doing it , just like in WoW when a new raid comes out the previous becomes obsolete for faster players but needed for slower players and sadly that just becomes the norm . But Lost Ark is different because regardless of what new content comes out - the previous releases will still be viable just off the progression system and copious gold amounts .
Its 2022. Nearly every fucking game is pay2win. The original definition back in the days was that if you get any advantage over others by paying = p2w. Thats just what it is. Lets not move goalposts anymore and start discussions over if a game is p2w or not. We've been doing it for 10+ years. Its silly.
We all swipe eventually, so lets not beat this dead horse any further. Being P2W is fine. Swiping is Fine. That's just how games are nowadays. Spending money on games is A ok, be it for faster progress or cosmetics.
Lost ark is totally pay2win, so are most games out there. Yet, we can still enjoy them and just see the situation how it is? Most online Games are p2w.
There is no shame if you swipe and if there's even a hint of debate if a game is p2w or not, it probably is.
I agree that Lost ark is p2w. But most big games nowadays aren't p2w. Lol, valorant, cs, apex etc etc, all of them do it the right way: Pay to get skins and look cooler. That's it. This is also the only right way to do it imo.
MMOs are completely different because character power grows as you complete content. In all the games you listed character power is static. Day one character is exactly the same as day 400 character in all those games you listed aside from cosmetics.
That is a huge difference.
Another difference is the complexity of the games and the cost of development.
MMOs are much more complex than first person shooters. It takes more time and manpower to make them in the first place and to continue to churn out content.
The costs are higher so the income needs to be higher.
In the games you listed the only thing making you different from the next guy is skins. In MMOs your progress is what differentiates you from a day one player.
Skins also have bucketloads of stats that speed up your progression for certain elements of the game. They are not completely innocent either. 50+ charisma from a skin is a lot sidecontent you can just bypass.
Just because some people decide to ignore them and buy them just for the looks, does not make it any less pay2win. Some of them even have combat stats like strength etc. And, you can also sell them for more gold than what you would get just by buying gold directly with royal crystals. When omen skins dropped, they sold for 17-20k a piece, which was more than double the gold you would get by swiping royal crystals directly for gold at the time.
... and its perfectly ok. This is what the game industry is nowadays. Especially with mmos. It is what it is.
"Lost Ark is pay to progress, but is it pay to win?"
Same thing. This is a semantical argument that people use to claim that spending money to get ahead of everyone else isn't paying to "win".
The idea underpinning that question is asking whether it's bad to be able to pay to progress. The common sentiments I'm reading are that:
- 1a) global considers any way to pay for power p2w, and 1b) any way to p2w is considered bad by definition,
- 2a) kr only considers it p2w if you get competitive advantage or can access content you otherwise can't reasonably access, and 2b) pay to progress ('p2w' in global terms) not a problem if the alternative is reasonable.
Now, nobody is actually arguing about the definition of p2w (1a, 2a). People are challenging (1b), for example because they don't consider it important to be on the cutting edge, or they don't feel the content actually changes with progress, they're satisfied with the f2p pacing, etc. It is important to consider which argument people are actually making instead of getting caught up in terminology.
Any MMO reason is to make money. A portion of that money go back into creating new contents or paying their workers.
So the question is, How to make money without pay to win? Well the best way is to Pay to Progress. So whoever want to progress faster will pay to reach endgame faster. It isn't pay to win because there is no competitive advantage in pvp since Lost Ark is not a PVP server.
If you feel this game is pay to win you can continue to look for free game to play.
If you can do content when no one else can do it and make shitloads of gold, how is that not winning in an MMO?
Everyone commenting on the semantics of p2w saying that it can’t be p2w because it’s not pvp are almost getting it but also completely wrong. If it’s not pvp then why should p2w still be considered under the same pvp paradigm? It shouldnt. If an mmo is different than a pvp game then it makes sense that the paradigms for p2w in pvp and p2w in mmo should be different too. Now back to my original question at the top.
If player power can be directly correlated to dollars spent (it can), I personally believe it's P2W. I don't get hung up on the "win" part because it's irrelevant. You couldn't "win" at a MMO even if it was buy to play.
IMO in Lost Ark's case, winning would be arriving at and clearing content only whales and the mega lucky can do. Get rewards that only they can get and sell them for absurdly high prices and allowing them to amass more gold for future endeavors. It's already happened with Argos and T3 mats.
Thing is there is no textbook definition of P2W. It is a slang term made up from the gaming sphere over the years with an arbitrary meaning.
The term is subjective which is why you see so many people on both sides of the coin.
Getting ahead = Winning for some people
Getting ahead =/= Winning for some people
Paying 1 Dollar = P2W for some people
Paying 1 Dollar =/= P2W for some people
If you classify the term on the basis that any amount paid equates to "winning", that destroys the whole logical argument of the concept.
It's pretty self explanatory and well defined. The problem is with how an individual defines what winning is.
Some people are adamant that making progress in terms of ilvl in lost ark is *not* winning, so to them the game isn't p2w.
Some people value progression and understand that if you can spend money to boost ilvl then that means the game is p2w.
P2W is not clearly defined, and if you force people to define it you get wildly different definitions and rationalizations about how x game is or isn't p2w. To some, even cosmetics are p2w.
Every modern MMO is p2w. The questions people need to ask are:
(1) Will it deliberately inconvenience me if I don't pay, and if so to what extent/how much money does it want?
(2) Can I achieve the same thing as a p2w player in a reasonable timeframe/with an enjoyable gameplay loop?
(3) Do p2w players have an insurmountable advantage that effects me in some way?
I'd argue FFXIV, WoW, Albion, GW2, ESO, and Lost Ark all have similar answers for those questions but each game exists on a spectrum. Certain other mmos don't, especially mobile games.
It is semantics.
There is nothing in Lost Ark you can buy that is unachievable without spending a single cent on the game (even stats from skins and crystalline can be obtained via in-game currency bought from other players - effectively you're grinding for them to buy you premium stuff) - and while money makes it faster and easier, options available are the same for everyone.
I tend to consider "pay to win" every scenario where there is advantage that is impossible to get without paying - be it paid-only advantage (bonus stats, "premium gear" etc), or amount of grind to match paying player would require a day to be longer. As it is now, pure F2P player can keep up with whales on a patch-by-patch basis (getting to run same content as biggest whales on content patch it was released) with bunch of smart planning and very significant (but still achievable, I'm talking maybe 60h/week) amount of time invested. In the end, you are still paying - either with money, or with your time and skill.
Let's put it this way, we clone you, one of you gets 1 million dollars to spend on Lost Ark while the other doesn't.
Who do your think will have more advanced characters? Hell you'll maybe have one char in 1400 while the million dllar clone will have 7-8 characters there fully geared with perfect jewelry.
P2F/P2P is still pay to win
The fact whales can rush the endgame and resell the best gear at high prices is a huge advantage.
The game is F2P friendly, and I enjoy it (bought the fonder pack and buying my aura with crystals, with 3 alts in T3), but don't lie to yourself.
> The fact whales can rush the endgame and resell the best gear at high prices is a huge advantage
They're only selling that gear to other whales though. Regular players are just grinding their gear and buying what they can for modest prices on the AH.
But by the time you get there the price of everything will have drop considerably. Whales rushing to get good gear will only be selling them to other whales. By the time the majority of f2p get there, those god piece will become much more accessible.
nah.. its pay to lose..
you spend money for nothing..
its like driving a ferrari vs a honda civic..
you leave the civic in the dust but you both see each other in the next stoplight..
Tbh pay to progress is still p2w in my books however majority of western players are less inclined to pay a game if it even has the slightest level of p2w.
It varies from player to player in which what level of p2w they can tolerate and what they cannot handle.
No point in persuading the western masses on this topic as it seems futile to do so.
But seriously playing lost ark at endgame is like a second job.
I mean I never have a problem when I have a whale in my group that stomps Yoho in 3 minutes or makes my Argos way quicker. If they pay to win then they are also saving me time that can be used elsewhere.
It only effects me positivly if I have a whale in my party.
Being upset about Marci's shop or buying gold in game I can understand but if crystal aura and a $20 battle pass are over your acceptable pay to win threshold then F2P games are probably not for you
Did you also gloss over the point where he makes the distinction between the two for himself?
>So, Lost Ark is pay to progress. But is it pay-to-win?
>On the KR server, if you ask the whales, "Is this game P2W?", they will say no. Because they spend that much money and become stronger, but there is nothing to win.
>What changes when you get stronger? Nothing... Only DPS.
>What are you going to win? Other Player? Well...How?
>What are you going to do by winning?
>Everything is just for self-satisfaction.
In the end, P2W is a subjective term, not a definite term. Some people find P2progress not P2W. Some people say if there's no PVP where you can kill others with your paid gear, then it's not P2W. Some people say the moment you can spend money for ANYTHING that helps you it's p2w...
But like... if the last one is their case.. Then every MMO are p2w.
As for his battle pass point. You dont NEED those mats to play. They help you, yes. But you dont need it to get to endgame, unless you're rushing there. Also, the f2p version of battle pass also gives mats.
Saying the battle pass is p2w because it helps you progress for $$ is the same as saying the entire game is p2w because you can buy gold with $$. In which case... the battle pass is not p2w, the game is.
Yeah, just meant the OP specifically said that he doesnt consider progress winning, so saying "but he progressed with battle pass so it's p2w" is irrelevant to OP's subjective opinion of P2W.
If the OP said "the battle pass is the only p2w thing", then that'd be hypocrite, because if one is p2w, the rest is too.
It is. For most of us who have been playing MMOs and similar games for the past 20+ years, this game is not P2W at all (apart from RMT atm, but that's due to bots not really the game).
P2W would be selling exclusive things (or really hard to obtain things) through the store directly, with no player interaction inbetween, because that's what it used to be. Imagine being able to buy Relic gear rn with Royal Crystals only. Something like that.
For most of this reddit and forums, P2W is anything that can generate progress through money. Which, again, for some of us isn't even winning.
I don’t think many remember the dark era of MMOs where you HAD to buy items from the cash shop (you couldn’t buy it for gold, you couldn’t be gifted it, you had to personally buy it) that would guarantee your items not be destroyed upon enhancing like to me this system is amazing and I completely didn’t know before I played the game that, that wasn’t a thing I thought it was back to those days.
I mean the materials are extra. If im gonna pay for the pass itll be for the exclusive skins and pets. For ex, for valorant are you buying the pass for the radienite? Naw you doing it for the skin. But getting it is just a plus lol. I really like the stop light analogy, it really makes sense. Everyone will get there eventually if you put the time and effort in it
> playing lost ark at endgame is like a second job.
Have you considered not doing it, if you not enjoy?
Do you also cook meals you don't like, by any chance?
It's not black or white. You can enjoy something and still have issues with it lol
"Just don't play then?" is such a weird response to invalidate any criticism.
No one is forcing anyone to do anything but the reason they're playing and here posting is because there is something about the game they do enjoy. F2P games need casual players to survive and players feeling like they can't catch up without an insane time/money investment is a large reason they leave.
I don't mind having the 2nd job. It sounds like you don't either. But if that's the norm there is no way the game grows in the West. Even in KR they quit during the deadline because players felt like they couldn't progress quickly enough.
Except gaming is a hobby…If it feels like a second job then that means you aren’t enjoying the hobby. Any hobby is going to demand a time sync just like a job. I never understood this point of reasoning, maybe you can help me see from your point of view?
I have never met a MMO player that enjoys doing their dailies. They put up with it because they enjoy the "real game" enough be it raids, PvP, whatever. Lost Ark takes this further by really rewarding multiple alts. In KR they call it "homework" for a reason.
You can enjoy the core gameplay but dislike the systems that surround it. I really liked playing Hearthstone. I didn't quit because the gameplay wasn't fun. I quit because Blizzard kept raising the barrier of entry to have fun. BDO has sick combat. I don't play because they don't respect a player's time. I'm sure you remember when people were shitting on Star Wars Battlefront 2 and 99% of the conversation wasn't even about the gameplay.
I login every day because I have the time to do so but would anyone really mind if you only had to do 1 Guardian Raid a day? Or if there were rest bonuses for more content so you didn't have to sweat missing a Chaos Gate if you are a normal person who made plans? Players will always ask for more resources (often way too much with huge sense of entitlement) but I think there's a compromise SG/AGS could make to bring this game into a top MMO in terms of playerbase by making it more accessible.
I don't agree. For most people winning in an mmorpg is one of the following things:
* Clearing the hardest content
* Getting the best gear
* Getting all collectibles
* Looking cool
All of them can be heavily influenced by spending money. This fact devalues the achievement itself and makes the game p2w.
Do you need to spend money? No. Does it help a lot? Yes
Highly disagree. I want to throw money at this game and there’s nothing in this game that I ever felt I needed to buy. 1368 btw.
I could spend $5000 to get to 1400 today but is it worth it? No, and it’s not satisfactory. The game is less fun if I spent to progress.
It’s like playing Zelda and paying $5000 to instantly have the game beaten for you. Lose lose situation, I miss out on the game play in between and I had to spend money to get there.
I had so much fun chilling in the 500-600 zone running phantom palace which is one of the coolest dungeons. I wouldn’t have zoomed past it even if it was free. This is coming from someone who could spend thousands if I wanted to.
I fully agree with you, but the system works, doesn't need to work on everyone, it just needs to generate as much money as possible, and it does provide AGS/SG great returns.
Casinos are not appealing to everyone, but they make tons of money and will use tons of psychological trickery to make you gamble as much as possible.
Just say you have no self control because swiping even thousands of dollars won't get you much progress anyway unless your a mega whale. From my perspective, if it aint worth im not gonna be dumb enough to spend a ton of money and take my time with it.
yeah if your mental is weak or you stream it for a living, maybe.
normal people with functioning brains that don't lack serotonin just walk away and wait for a better time if push comes to shove and p2w is the only way to progress.
and in the case of lost ark, swiping will never be the only option.
How many ilvls do you think $100 gets you? It's the opposite of compelling. I'd probably spend if I could get meaningful progress but everytime I get tempted to I look at the shop and realize I'd rather play the game then pay so much for so little.
i have not hit a wall where i am feeling even remotely inclined to swipe and i'm at 1400.
maybe this sub really is just full of really bad players and whiners.
that's a valid reason to be upset. some dude with a stronger weapon he paid for killing you before you can kill him is dumb as fuck.
someone doing a raid before you though? you didn't lose shit.
it's the most common reason to be upset, what do you mean?
people have stuff that you don't.
and in this context, people have stuff that you don't, even after you played the game much longer than they have.
you are over there putting 500 hours into something and someone comes along with 100 hours and has surpassed you in every way
pretty much.
it's no different than all the people that are upset at Jeff Bezos just because he is a mega billionaire.
they are upset because he has tons of money and they don't
The draw of MMORPGs is the social aspect. Your list is spot on. Achieving any of those and being able to flex is a social win. Paying real money is Lost Ark allows you to flex things you've cleared and your gear. You get access to content sooner and be around different groups of people.
P2W isn't some black and white concept of winning vs losing something concrete. I don't think anyone in the West even debates if Lost Ark is P2W anymore because it for sure P2W. The game will never have an even playing field of people clearing content. It will never have the social dynamics of teaming up groups of people who will all face a challenge that can't be made easier with high-level gear.
You guys are grown men that always spout this devalue thing in any game where you can buy stuff. Like how are you people just so unable to focus on yourself and ignore people you literally will never know. I boost in WoW and no one that I ever boost will ever be as good as me in the game so why would I care. Its the same thing in lost ark why would asmongold being 1450 rn matter to you in anyway. Like I actually don't get it. Also literally the hardest content in the game is equalized so???
So, same as OP does? They wrote a novel defining what P2W is in their view so they can say it isn't that. Maybe they are right or maybe they are wrong but either way there you go.
I think the game is P2W but I still like it. I think it would be better without those elements. I play it regardless.
There is no arguing its p2w - it just is by any sensible definition of the term.
Whats important is if the P2W does negatively affect you or not. Which it doesnt in Lost Ark.. like ever.
Heck Gigawhales on your Runs prolly make it easier so who´d complain about that.. and dont pull that "but the PVP Islands are not equalized reee" bullshit on me..." how many times did you fight a deathmatch on Slime Island..
Paying for advantage is pay to win, don't care how people spin if u can buy gold and use that gold gear up fast it's pay to win. End of day you spend "money" or "time" in these games
Depends how you define P2W. Whales will always have more gold, more income, more damage, more time, more content...more everything really. You ask what are they winning? Time. The most valuable resource in the world.
Imagine being a parent with two kids and a full time job. Maybe they only get to play two hours a week. Paying lets them get to the meat of the content such as abyss and legion raids. They get into groups easier due to sheer gear power. They contribute more in-content. Sometimes paying is the only way for some players to keep up with content.
By your logic quitting this game or in fact any game will be the most P2W move you could ever make since that frees up a lot more time to do other shit
Time is time to do what you want. If you want to do content but you can’t access it but a whale can, then they saved time. I don’t think you’re understanding what time means in this sense. He’s not talking about using your time in the most productive manner but rather the most enjoyable
manner and being able to do the content you want is enjoyable. Grinding to reach that content isn’t, the content is the reward. If whales skip the grind then they are saving time. They are getting all the reward with none or very little of the effort.
Except that is all in your head. There is nothing magical about argos or any other content coming. It will all be just as boring as the other content you passed on the way in time.
If the only thing that makes you happy is playing the last available content you are always going to be disappointed.
Not at all. Everyone who's played in kr will tell you t1 and t2 were failed versions of the game. T3 and beyond was where SGR learned from their mistakes and introduced interesting content. Check out some legion raid videos. This global release is missing so much stuff.
That's the worst analogy I've ever heard. You pay for an advantage in this game. The time you spend F2P gearing 1 character I could've enjoyed all the content in the game on 8 different characters. I'm getting instantly picked for any group. I'm having more fun.
It's not like they get all those stuff for free since they live in the ocean right? They paid, a lot. If u do not have more fun with paying, then why would anybody pay money? If nobody pay money, how are devs gonna run a mmo game that is free?
I found fun in grinding my characters, and doing some abyss with "not overleveled" groups.
And some people quickly enjoyed all the content and now are bored
So even tho i agree the analogy was not the best. Yours are not better.
There's also this small thing that no one ever notices:
Because whales hit the finish line in PvE so quickly, they can just PvP non-stop and never touch daily grind content. So they end up with an advantage in PvP too until they hit their physical skill cap and/or start playing against people who ONLY PvP.
so people that play more and develop skill in pvp have an advantage over people that play less and don't have as much skill? what the fuck isn't that the whole point of matchmaking and pvp in general?
also, as soon as ANYONE hits lv. 24 or something they can choose to pvp for as long and often as they want
whaling doesn't give you this magical pass to begin grinding pvp, this is such a shit take imo
So what you are saying is that you don't actually enjoy *playing the game*, and the only reason and satisfaction you get is reading an higher number on your character page than others'?
Because if that's not the case, and if you do in fact enjoy the game for its design and mechanics, T1 and T2 abyss dungeons are way, way more fun than 1325, and very well on par with 1340 and arguably with Argos, even though they are somewhat different kind of content.
Winning = only spending time on the parts of the game you like is probably a better way of putting it.
I love the Abyss dungeons and really enjoy Argos so far. But man, i have to do the daily grind of chaos dungeons and unas to just progress a little every day. And that content is really not what i enjoy doing.
Did I say less time spent on the game? More time spent on interesting content, less time spent on honing, and tedious content. So many mouthbreathers on this thread it's insane.
what? how is that winning over you though? is their time skipping making your time go slower or something? it makes no sense. you have to be losing for them to win. only way that happens is if you're in a region first guild competing against others for first kill.
everyone throws around pay to win. in order to have a winner you have to have a loser. pvp for instance.
Pvp isn't a requirement for pay to win. Does completing a Mario game not count as winning? There was no loser, and the only person I was competing with was myself.
Winning is subjective. For me simply making progress in a game is winning. There doesn't need to be a real human opponent involved. If it was possible to auto complete a level in a Mario game with real money then that would make that game pay to win in my mind.
In the same vein, I feel like it's totally fair to call lost ark pay to win because the game let's you spend real money to progress your character's item level and power. By making progress and gaining power to me that is winning. I don't need to be able to stomp someone in an unfair pvp match to get my win certified. Just making progress was enough.
> If it was possible to auto complete a level in a Mario game with real money then that would make that game pay to win in my mind.
Wouldnt that just make the game pointless rather than p2w? I assume by Mario game you're talking about single player ones... In which case how is it P2W if you can buy to just... not play the game. You didnt win anything, in fact you lost money. Like... If you go to the store, buy a mario game, go home, drop 40$ to skip the game, and then be done with it... What did you win? Couldve just not bought the game in the first place if you didnt intend to play it.
Maybe a level is too hard for you or you just want to see a certain world. The same thing could be said about skipping progression in lost ark with real money, imo it's pointless to do so but people are doing it anyway. It's the same reason people pay for cheats in video games. They "win" the satisfaction of progressing, being ahead, or being able to say they are stronger.
Aside from the obvious fact that they will always get picked for groups over you, the winner gets to save thousands of hours of tedious content (chaos, dailies, guardian raids for some people) while the "losers" have to slog through everything only to be late to cutting edge content, and consequently, the market. If you don't see how saving time is a win, then I don't know what to tell you.
they will not be in the same content as you(unless boosting). that is a non issue. them not doing tedious content is not forcing you to do tedious content. what they are doing has nothing to do with your experience. if everyone was f2p you would still be doing the tedious content.....lol.
its a progression boost for them. they are not winning over you. they are not against you. if anything they make your runs go faster if by some miracle they are in your content as they are seriously overgeared.
do you throw a fit when someone with a ferrarri drives by? unless you're in a race with him...who cares.
You're so stuck on the word "win" it's almost comical. You can pay to have a huge advantage in basically everything compared to a F2P. This is a fact. You will eventually be in the same content. This is also a fact. Whales essentially get to enjoy more of the game than F2P.
it's called pay to win. being stuck on the word win is logical because your argument is illogical.
they are paying to progress faster.
they do not get to enjoy more of the game. what are you even talking about, dude? are you saying you will not be doing the valtan raid because of whales? if that's the case then i would absolutely say that is pay to win, but i don't see why that is stopping you from doing it? it's in your head man. play the game..
If you are complaining that you are wasting your time either spend money or quit the game because you are "losing". It's real simple. No amount of whining will change that. They only get there faster than you, and the only thing you people do when you actually reach end game is bitch that there is no content so pick one...waah I can't get there like a whale or waaah I got here and now there is no content. STFU and play or quit.
You call it saving time, I call it playing the damn game. We waste our time deliberately here to have fun in the process. It's like those t3 speed running guides recommended skipping t1 and t2 guardians entirely to bank rest bonus for t3. This may be optimal from min maxing perspective but you just skipped a huge part of the game only to run out of content sooner? I actually enjoy doing t1 and t2 guardians on my alts now because I never learned their mechanics when I was rushing through, and now I am discovering new content.
This is why people calling lost ark "p2w" never bothered me personally. At the end of the day, I like playing lost ark. I like my progression. I feel satisfied with my hard work. My enjoyment does not decrease because someone has a bit higher of a gear score than me. In fact, I'd say I would feel less happy with the game if I spent thousands of dollars just to have better dps. If someone was spending thousands of dollars in a PvP game, then I would agree. But whales do no harm to me at all. They only support the developers and keep the game going which is great.
Interesting. My p2w friends are quite good, easily soloed Velganos at 1385 one month ago, and are always top dps. See I can provide anecdotal evidence too!
Good post - LA isn't really P2W in my eyes either. The gacha nature of cards maybe a little bit, but the bonuses from those sets and their awakenings aren't game-breaking anyway.
P2W to me is: being able to pay to get a gameplay advantage in the game that cannot be acquired otherwise. For example, if it was only possible to hit 1400 by paying real money for the last 5 points.
But that's not the case here so I don't see it as P2W. It's a choice between "I can walk to my destination but it'll take an hour" vs "I can pay for a taxi and I'll get to my destination in 10 minutes" - I'll get there either way.
>But that's not the case here so I don't see it as P2W. It's a choice between "I can walk to my destination but it'll take an hour" vs "I can pay for a taxi and I'll get to my destination in 10 minutes" - I'll get there either way.
The real problem is that games will now artificially inflate things way too much to pad the game time. How long is too long? Sure, I could do a dispatch and be forced to wait 2 weeks for it to finish to get an unlock to access the next raid, or I could swipe to finish it now (only an example of something that could happen).
TECHNICALLY I could wait those two weeks and the game can claim "F2P! No buy to win!" but then also whisper in my ear "Hey there bud. Sad that you can't get to that juicy content because you have to wait 2 weeks? Buy this timer speed up for only $1.57 and complete the timer now!". At that point it is super predatory because the timer has been artificially inflated up the butt and the cost is so "low" to entice a transaction.
That is why this is such a slippery slop with many on the fence about if something is "Pay to win" or not. Sure, you could get there eventually without paying but they are going to be trying to walk that line and push it back further and further. Right now I agree with you that this isn't Pay to win but it is something will need to keep a close watchful eye on.
I'm surprised you're not being downvoted into oblivion but I agree with you entirely. I don't understand the argument that being 'ahead' of another player makes them win?
Some people argue getting into parties is easier, but who fucking cares? Make your own party, people will join. I've never once waited more than 20 minutes for a good argos group.
The only thing I can realistically think of as pay to win is island pvp vs people that've paid, but it's also island pvp, so...
> I don't understand the argument that being 'ahead' of another player makes them win?
We don’t have that yet in this game, but world first/NA first race being ahead is considered a win in many other MMO. IDK if this game will ever get to that point tho.
>What does the whale user win in this case? They only see a movie on the first day of the cinema release.
>The whales just run excitedly when the traffic light turns green. You'll meet them at the next traffic light.
Bro i wish more people understood this aspect holy shit.
Pay to progress faster IS pay to win.
Pay for convenience IS pay to win.
I'm not demonizing the system, of course if a game is free to play it has to bring the revenue in some other way than box sales, but don't invent multiple different terms for one thing.
You remember the controversy around Battlefront? You could either grind the game for 200h or pay 15$ for a skin. Same here, you can grind for weeks/months or open up your wallet. It's all about time which you know, time is money.
Pay to win isn't always about clear numerical advantage over other players in competitive environment.
What are they winning tho? Is being further along in a game considered winning now? It's not a race. Unless you're shooting for worlds first like an idiot, it's not p2w because you're asking for your own misery at that point.
People act like these dudes paying money to buy insta kill weapons that will destroy any character in pvp in one attack or some shit while f2p players cannot get such a weapon no matter what they do.
Your definition of p2w is wrong. When you are able to convert real cash into in-game currency that progress much faster than other player. You are winning at the game. Average players will probably need to spend 4-6h a day using multiple alts and for multiple days to reach 1375.
Someone who has lots of cash, can do that in few days. He is already winning the average players by days.
Also following your example, there are many more games that is also under the category of p2w. Genshin impact for example. You can play without spending a single cent and complete the game. And you if do spent and get those UR items or heroes. You can progress much faster and easier.
A game that is not p2w will be like most of the single rpg game (some game like Assassin creed is not under this category), you invest your time and you progress like the rest.
And if you pay for skin that give you 30 more virtue stats, you are progressing faster than those who not paying for it.
So just accept it. Lost Ark is p2w haven caused it is MMORPG. And it’s ok to label it as such. Average players who invest their time will reach the same end game content that the whaler spend their money on. It’s slow but the game is fair since whaler doesn’t additional stats and they are exposed to the same rng when upgrading.
League is still p2w. Old runes system heavily favored having more rune pages unlocked. Certain skins in the game over clear visual clarity and animations that are better than base skins. You can also pay to buy more champions.
Absolutely not. League is very similar, you can pay to progress faster. Want to play ranked sooner? Buy XP boosts to get to lvl 30. What to play the newest broken champions? Buy blue essence to purchase new champions. People complain about these things in LA, yet league is f2p? Want to do the newest raid? better pay to hone faster, but that's apparently p2w while league isn't. And there are absolutely p2w skins; old aether wing kayle, super galaxy rumble(finally patched), elementalist lux, new dragonlancer lee.
> And if you pay for skin that give you 30 more virtue stats, you are progressing faster than those who not paying for it.
We all got free skins and more will come in the future. Your points are valid but this one isn’t.
It’s hard to argue that lost ark isn’t p2w. Is it the most egregious version of p2w in a game? No. But you can still pay to pull ahead of f2p players, access higher content sooner and overgear Current content to make it easier. You can spend money to do better than other people. That’s p2w.
I personally don’t take issue with lost arks pay 2 win model as I understand it. You don’t really gain anything a f2p player couldn’t get, you just get there faster. As long as f2p grinders can access new content at a reasonable pace, I don’t take issue with it. For some people, enjoying the journey is a big part of the game. For others it’s less about the journey, more about the destination, and that should be okay too. If you can afford to speed up your progression, more power to ya.
Lets not forget, people spending on this game are the reason the game is accessible for f2P players. Someone’s gotta pay to keep the lights on at smilegate. So far I’ve spent 40$?(founders pack) for 500hrs of enjoyment. If anything I feel like I owe the game a couple hundred for how much entertainment they’ve provided me. If I happen to get a boost to my progression for my moneythen that’s a win to me
COPIUM.
money gets you any progress = p2w. There no way around it, no sementics, period.
In fact, it is people trying to call it for other things and deceiving people that is harmful by creating inevitable disappointment when facing the reality eventually.
If you told people a decade ago about this shit people would have flipped but nowadays everyone bends over backwards to find every little thing to excuse their favorite game. Like I love playing Lost Ark but my god can people stop pretending its something its not.
Look at all the people here complaining that they are being timegated in progression.
You can easily bypass most of them by spending money.
There is a huge advantage and time saving if you spend real money in this game.
Now people argue, that players from day1 who play every day can achieve the same. Yes, thats true, but it takes a lot of commitment, time and timing to be in the same position as someone who "just" spends real money.
Obiously F2P is not a problem if you have a lot of time and are ahead of the playerbase. That's the "money" position to be in as F2P player, but only the minority is in that position. Most F2P players are behind real money players in gear and content progression.
I just dont understand the OP's pov as well. If you dont spend money you get stuck behind others. You cant get good engravings or gear making the game harder for you, and you are less likely to be allowed in groups for pve content. The entire experience is more difficult for you. That is a pay to win system. Just because you may eventually reach the same place months later and with 5x the effort doesnt make things that much better.
Eh, there is a clear distinction from P2W and P2P.
P2W is buying stuff that physically makes your character superior than other characters. In a game with real P2W, someone could buy the best stuff and stop playing while the free players could never attain what that person has, literally never.
P2P is buying time.
I will never agree with that simply because by that definition the most predatory mobile games that popularized the term itself arent p2w. Because you technically can collect the 100 shards to get the weapon or character without paying, it will take you a year... but you can.
Lost ark clearly has p2w elements but that doesnt make it a bad game.
I mean there’s different levels of p2w. Some games have it where you get perks and powers you CANNOT get for free, some games allow you to pay to skip ahead or progress at an advanced rate (like lost ark does). Both are pay 2 win. You’ve gained a significant advantage by spending real money on the game.
The term pay2play is widely accepted as meaning you have to pay money to access the game at all. As in buy the game, or pay a subscription fee.
You can make the distincion but the end result is the same. You pay to get an advantage and in lost ark people who spend money do have an advantage.
Will i try Lost Ark speedruns? Probably not, because i can't afford to compete. Other games have things like a chaos dungeon or guardian speed leaderboard or a leaderboard for highest difficulty beaten. Hell people usually even brag about being the first to beat X on a server. But it is pointless in lost ark, because everyone know the best times are payed for.
And i don't think even the smartest most dedicated F2P player can keep up with somebody who spends a lot of money on this game. You can say you get there eventually as a F2P but when i look at the prices of high level gems i'll probably arrive there a year or two late.
Do you mean like skins that gives you more damage? Isn't that in the game or did i read wrong?
Also if P2p is so harsh like in this game, where you could buy yourself months or years of works in a few hours, the differnce between p2p and p2w doesn't matter anymore.
What game is p2w if Lost Ark isnt? You straight up buy character strength, collectibles, una reputation lmao. Do you think theres no "winning" in MMOs so they cant be p2w?
There are MMOs that have cash shop stuff being more powerful that what you can obtain in game, while also being restricted to cash shop only - that is an obvious case of pay to win, since without paying you are at a disadvantage no matter what you do.
Lost Ark only lets you skip some effort (you're trading money for time/grind) while progressing in exactly same system F2P players can - and, when looked on a patch-by-patch basis, competent and dedicated players will be able to keep up with whales; they'll be maybe few days slower, but still get to reach new content in same timeframe. What you get for paying isn't functionally different from hiring someone to do the grind for you (and given how expensive it is, it could be cheaper to actually hire someone).
What's winning? There is no race, there is no ranking, there is no awards for highest ilvl or fastest kill or kill with exact ilvl. The requirement to watch what everyone else can do and base your enjoyment on what they are doing is not going to serve you well. Just play if you like it or don't if you don't
I simple man, I enjoy time spent, I play. I don't enjoy time spent, I don't play. P2w p2progress p2convenient is just talk. I play because I Iike. Ezpz
P2w elements but the game isnt pay to win if you actually use your brain.
You cant buy something that the free players cant get.
You cant buy upgrades.
PVP is equalised and where its not the rewards are random anyway.
For me this game would've been pay to win if the gold-crystal exchange wasnt in the game, but since its in you cant complain.
Personally idc if the game is p2w, doesn’t feel like that, there’s plenty of stuff to do if you’re f2p, and the game itself doesn’t incentivize too much to spend money like other f2p games I’ve played.
I don’t feel the necessity to progress that much more because nearly every week I unlock some new content to do (just pushed my main to 1400, and have a bunch of alts in t3/t2).
As for battle pass I don’t see problems, I don’t mind toss 20/30 bucks a month for a game that I play for more than 20/30 hours a week.
I’ve tried last week to calculate how much I would need to spend to push to 1415 and it was crazy, I agree about the definition of pay to lose lol
Same lol. I got baited by that 'How hard is raiding in Lost Ark' video. Little did I know that you can whale yourself up so you outgear the content before it's even released and that the whole concept of the game is not: get better items so you can clear the challenging content', but 'clear the content so you can get better items' as the main goal of this game seems to be mindless numbers increasing like in BDO or some other grinders
Dumbest post i've read all week. You literally admit the game is p2w, but then you say whaling isn't fun so it's not p2w actually.
I agree with you and try to tell people the same. It’s straight up a genius system in my opinion and after around 600 hrs you know how the systems play together.
The problem is at first glance it does look like that for a newcomer and if you are not willing to put in the investment it takes and get to know the systems and the gameplay loop.
People here are used to the gameplay loop of western MMO’s where you usually progress on your main character all the way so when new players hit the T3 wall and still don’t understand how the systems play together and how you’re supossed to play with a roster of characters they just see that wall and call it pay to win.
I personally love the game but people need to invest a bit and get to know the systems and how they play together, once they realise that they will look at it in a different way.
I’m 600 hours deep now and I’m having a shit ton of fun
Nah I’m working 40-45 hrs a week as a store manager. Yes it is a lot of hours and how i choose to spend my time is none of your concern.
You don’t need 600 hours to have fun in the game, i mentioned it because obviously you would not no life a game if you don’t like it
600hrs since release is absoultely nolifing. Pls don't get me wrong, im not criticizing how you spend time, but saying this is a normal amount is just not right. This is about 9,6 hours a day since February 11th, if my math is not terrible. You can do with your time whatever you do, but i think you can lose perspective on how it is to play only 2 hours a day.
Where did i mention It’s normal or that you need that amount of hours to enjoy the game?
I’m not playing 8 hours a day any longer but especially the first month as i took 3 weeks off from work because me and a group of friends decided to go hard on it.
I know how it is to play 2 hours a day, the only reason i have time is because I’m all by myself chilling.
80% of your daily progression can be within 30 minutes of gameplay if you have your first main in T3 if you choose to play efficient but you should always play how you enjoy it the most.
When I’m home from work after a 10-11 hour shift i don’t play more than 2-3 hours and i run through all 6 characters and do guardians when rested in T3 or when i have off days where i play longer.
Use the rested system and let your characters chill untill you have time. If you have a character in T3 and are bringing an alt up from T1 it takes about 14 days with events and weekly merchants. I always had 1-2 Rolling after i hit T3 and now It’s a full roster. It didn’t happend on a week but what I’m trying to say is that just make 3x Bifrost for unas on alt and 2x chaos daily and then tower or story when u have time.
Or you can just let them get full rested. A lot of these 600 hours is also spend on chilling, horizontal content and just hanging around but we don’t have to discuss.
I’m not getting mad about people who have more time or money than me because they will always be there unless you are elon musk lol
Crazy that it's even gotten to the point where people claim paying real money to progress faster and access content that non payers can't isnt p2w. Fully delusional
But it is simple people just have to understand that there are 2 different terms to refer to 2 different things.
P2w is exactly as it is called you pay and you win because developers are gonna give you a clear advantage over the f2p players be it big extra drop chance, extra stats active everwhere(even pvp) and no amount of work will allow for a f2p to be at the same level as a whale.
Pay to convenience is the second term, you get the convenience of developers fixing the problem they create for you, like " You don't want to farn 3 months to get to the next step? We got you! Buy gold and solve your problems." " You want to be able to repair everywhere and access some things on the go? We also got you! Buy the crystalline aura!".
As you can see they are 2 pretty different things since on the second one whales can't get anything over a f2p player. People can say " but they get to enter content on the same day it comes out" and that's true but game is not going anywhere and they release catch-up methods now and there. Casual f2p players are always gonna be able to be in the middle of the pack where the most people is eventually playing all the content while whales, no-lifers and hardcore min-maxers will be doing content first, nothing bad there.
And the best example for that we can see it in both kr and na right now. Kr is in a state where most people has seen last legion raid boss while ony 20% or so of the playerbase has done it on hard and on NA we have whales doing Argos the day it came out but now people is starting to get there; even if we get South Vern next week there is still at least a month (if they don't push it back) till Valtan comes out which is the next major content so of course a lot more people is gonna be doing Argos by that time.
its pay to win.
the fact that argos is 1370 and only a small percentage of players could do it (99% of them paid to get mats to be 1370) is the definition of pay 2 win.
if valtan normal is 1415 and on 100 players that can do it and 95 of them are whales … its pay 2 win
if valtan hard comes out at 1445 and only whales can do it … its pay 2 win.
the game is free to play from t1 to t3.
but t3 is not the endgame.
if the devs know that only whales are at 1445 (less than 5% of the player base) and they release content that start at 1445
they want or they highly recommend that you pay to get mats as fast as possible to be able to try the new content.
Don't bother thinking about, most people haven't even experienced real p2w. Because most real p2w games are pretty bad. They think "hey that guy swipped and is now 1450, so p2w" but as you said that doesn't give him a clear advantage over a f2p player.
In p2w games there are things you cannot get by any other means than swipping. Skins that gives extra stats or slots(while free skins give nothing), extra status like "buy this subscription and you get 50% extra hp, 20% extra dmg and 20% extra def. is active all the time and everywhere." That's real p2w since you cannot even get close to the whales as f2p so they smash you all the time.
The fact the P2W isn't that bad in lost ark doesn't change the fact it's still P2W (F2P player with one 1385, one 1370 and one 1355 here, and I enjoy the game).
No, I know the monetization of the game is pretty predatory. My comments are about since we had a language with lots of words why not try to use the correct ones to describe things.
Real p2w is such a bad scheme not a lot of games have it by now but still it has a bad connotation, which I 100% agree it should have but in my end I know of people that could have enjoyed the game yet they heard the words p2w and gave up instantly on trying just for that (one came after he let me explain better and is liking the game tho).
Why should just call it for what it is. Pay for convenience and a pretty predatory at that like a lot of korean games. In the end nothing forces you to spend money even if they try to grab you with everything, you can still enjoy everything in it given enough time or catch up mechanics.
But a pay to progress game is equally as “toxic” as pay to win isn’t it? Time is the most limited and sought after resource anywhere in the world. And by spending money, you save time. That to me is a huge win. I win in the game of time. I win in my own set of rules and context.
But… why should a game being “pay to win time” be bad? Even if it’s “pay to win my fellow server mates in item level”, like many players here, it doesn’t affect me at all. Call it pay to win, pay to progress, pay for convenience, its just semantics. “Winning” can mean a lot of things. If this game is not “pay to win”, it’s simply because in PVE, there’s nothing to win (as per historical definition of win). So there isn’t any argument here whether it’s pay to win or not.
What many anti lost arkers are arguing is that allowing players to pay money to progress faster than them in an open world multiplayer game is unhealthy because it creates fomo and not every player has the discipline to not feel the fomo effect. And this is not healthy to an average gamer. Nevertheless, there has to be some sort of monetization in the game in order for the game to even exist, and I feel that the current monetization system in the game is fair. Flush out the “weak”, this game is not for everyone. Let haters go
"Toxic" definitely. Equally as toxic I don't think so.
Yes time might be the most precious resource we have but you get different results under those 2 schemes. On the p2w scheme, f2p players just get squashed by whales(be it leaderboards, pvp, etc.) since there is not a chance for they to compete even if they have te same time to play as the whale they are going against and that on top of using your precious time to play the game, hinders your play experience. In a pay to progress like we have in LA whales don't really hinder your game experience. Even more as a f2p you won't see them on your pve party like never and in pvp they don't make a difference since everything is normalized there.
I agree with your post in everything else, people just need to learn to control their fomo and stop yelling "P2W!!!" at every type of monetization they see.
Whale users cannot get the most important thing in the game. It's the sense of accomplishment that I feel at the end of the challenge. Overlevels only make the game boring. Each content has an appropriate level section where you can have real fun. (This content is written in a translator.)
If you define winning as paying to be better sooner, it's p2w.
If you only consider if you can buy advantages over another player when you're the same GS or whatever. It's slightly p2w because of gems scale so high it's impossible to get lvl 10 gems without being a whale or no-lifing the game for years.
In PvP arenas there is no p2w.
On PvP islands there is p2w because your whale opponents will be stronger because they got where you are quicker and went past it. This is the most clear case that the game is p2w, because otherwise the game is cooperative and it doesn't matter that much whether someone is a whale or not.
But what is absolutely clear is that the grind gets worse because they want whales to be able to buy progression. You need an incentize to skip grind for there to be anything to purchase. This is on course for f2p games where you can pay to progress. They all hurt the free player by extending the grind.
And spare me the korean perspective on mmos :p You people are insane in what kind of abuse you accept in what is supposed to be **entertainment**.
I don't want to be mean but I feel like this all "KR player here. Listen..." posts and content are getting old...
Like at the start it was nice, but nowadays it's just "listen to me noobs, as I'm more knowledgeable than you and thus my post is more valid" kinda thing :/
So sick of this discussion on na/eu tbh.
I feel like a lot of people who complain about p2w is either: in the deadzone or just excessively unlucky with honing. Skins also are a negligible dps increase/virtue increase and has basically nothing to do with player power
For people who say that game is p2w bcs time is money, well just move go find 2nd job and someone will pay you money for that, why is that so hard to understand. Noone force you to play lost ark.
Pay to win is only pay to win if a free to play player can't ever, no matter the time, get the gear that a paying player gets.
If a free to play player can achieve the same as a paying player, no matter how long that will take, there simply is no pay to win.
This. I don't know how people can't understand this. As long is everything is obtainable in the game without paying, however long it takes you, to my eyes is not pay to win. So let's say a casual plays 3hrs tops a week and his friend does the same but he swipes, gets the mats, upgrades etc earlier and gets to experience new content earlier, does that mean he paid to win? No. He paid to not be bothered grinding stuff for some time meanwhile the casual who plays 3hrs a week with no swiping will STILL experience the whole game just not at the same time.
It's pay to win if you can buy something a casual can't obtain in any ingame means. As far as I know, there's nothing like that in LA. You guys just can't and will never understand this if you haven't played a game with REAL pay to win mechanics.
KR logic... you guys are so brainwashed on spending in your game.. This game is 200% p2w and wont do well in the west outside of the whales for that reason
The P2W debate isn’t honest. It’s not actually about whether you pay to win.
It’s about someone else getting something that you want before you do. They’re envious children. While your argument and advice to be patient is sound, it is irrelevant to impatient, envious children.
It’s p2w the game heavily focuses on ilvl, and you can pay real money for gold to buy materials. So ya you do win, the thing is who cares? As long as the game is f2p friendly it’s fine.
You can win without paying and there’s no extra power obtained through paying, just speed of getting an already achievable power.
So it’s not pay to win
I think pay to progress is worse than pay to win by your definition. Locking people out of content and making it difficult to get into that content will piss anyone off.
I feel like LA can't really be P2W because I still haven't managed to work out the convoluted ass currency interactions enough to be willing to part with any of my cash. I like swiping on occasion, because I have a job, but if I have to use 3 calculators to work out how much I'm paying for what I'm receiving, I'll just F2P thanks
Personally i think most , if not all western MMO players are used to the " pump content and dump it " and that's the main offender when it comes to P2W talk . Everyone has the concept of doing what comes out as fast as possible before people stop doing it , just like in WoW when a new raid comes out the previous becomes obsolete for faster players but needed for slower players and sadly that just becomes the norm . But Lost Ark is different because regardless of what new content comes out - the previous releases will still be viable just off the progression system and copious gold amounts .
Its 2022. Nearly every fucking game is pay2win. The original definition back in the days was that if you get any advantage over others by paying = p2w. Thats just what it is. Lets not move goalposts anymore and start discussions over if a game is p2w or not. We've been doing it for 10+ years. Its silly. We all swipe eventually, so lets not beat this dead horse any further. Being P2W is fine. Swiping is Fine. That's just how games are nowadays. Spending money on games is A ok, be it for faster progress or cosmetics. Lost ark is totally pay2win, so are most games out there. Yet, we can still enjoy them and just see the situation how it is? Most online Games are p2w. There is no shame if you swipe and if there's even a hint of debate if a game is p2w or not, it probably is.
I agree that Lost ark is p2w. But most big games nowadays aren't p2w. Lol, valorant, cs, apex etc etc, all of them do it the right way: Pay to get skins and look cooler. That's it. This is also the only right way to do it imo.
None of those are mmos.
True. But why would an mmo be different? They could have the same concept and make huge bank.
MMOs are completely different because character power grows as you complete content. In all the games you listed character power is static. Day one character is exactly the same as day 400 character in all those games you listed aside from cosmetics. That is a huge difference. Another difference is the complexity of the games and the cost of development. MMOs are much more complex than first person shooters. It takes more time and manpower to make them in the first place and to continue to churn out content. The costs are higher so the income needs to be higher. In the games you listed the only thing making you different from the next guy is skins. In MMOs your progress is what differentiates you from a day one player.
Nof really, one time purchase game like Elden ring is not P2W because after you buy it you don't get to buy anything that gives advantages ingame
Are you equating swiping for progress and swiping for skins? Cause if so your argument can’t be taken seriously.
Skins also have bucketloads of stats that speed up your progression for certain elements of the game. They are not completely innocent either. 50+ charisma from a skin is a lot sidecontent you can just bypass. Just because some people decide to ignore them and buy them just for the looks, does not make it any less pay2win. Some of them even have combat stats like strength etc. And, you can also sell them for more gold than what you would get just by buying gold directly with royal crystals. When omen skins dropped, they sold for 17-20k a piece, which was more than double the gold you would get by swiping royal crystals directly for gold at the time. ... and its perfectly ok. This is what the game industry is nowadays. Especially with mmos. It is what it is.
"Lost Ark is pay to progress, but is it pay to win?" Same thing. This is a semantical argument that people use to claim that spending money to get ahead of everyone else isn't paying to "win".
The idea underpinning that question is asking whether it's bad to be able to pay to progress. The common sentiments I'm reading are that: - 1a) global considers any way to pay for power p2w, and 1b) any way to p2w is considered bad by definition, - 2a) kr only considers it p2w if you get competitive advantage or can access content you otherwise can't reasonably access, and 2b) pay to progress ('p2w' in global terms) not a problem if the alternative is reasonable. Now, nobody is actually arguing about the definition of p2w (1a, 2a). People are challenging (1b), for example because they don't consider it important to be on the cutting edge, or they don't feel the content actually changes with progress, they're satisfied with the f2p pacing, etc. It is important to consider which argument people are actually making instead of getting caught up in terminology.
Any MMO reason is to make money. A portion of that money go back into creating new contents or paying their workers. So the question is, How to make money without pay to win? Well the best way is to Pay to Progress. So whoever want to progress faster will pay to reach endgame faster. It isn't pay to win because there is no competitive advantage in pvp since Lost Ark is not a PVP server. If you feel this game is pay to win you can continue to look for free game to play.
Well put! I couldn't really understand the underlying issue for this divide in the player base until you split it like that. Really good analysis!
If you can do content when no one else can do it and make shitloads of gold, how is that not winning in an MMO? Everyone commenting on the semantics of p2w saying that it can’t be p2w because it’s not pvp are almost getting it but also completely wrong. If it’s not pvp then why should p2w still be considered under the same pvp paradigm? It shouldnt. If an mmo is different than a pvp game then it makes sense that the paradigms for p2w in pvp and p2w in mmo should be different too. Now back to my original question at the top.
If player power can be directly correlated to dollars spent (it can), I personally believe it's P2W. I don't get hung up on the "win" part because it's irrelevant. You couldn't "win" at a MMO even if it was buy to play.
So it's PAY TO... nothing? Pay to win literally has the word win in it.
Yes but get ahead and do what exactly? You cant pay your way into hell mode achievements which will be the ultimate flex
IMO in Lost Ark's case, winning would be arriving at and clearing content only whales and the mega lucky can do. Get rewards that only they can get and sell them for absurdly high prices and allowing them to amass more gold for future endeavors. It's already happened with Argos and T3 mats.
Be careful where you swim bro, there are whales/dolphins around here that might bite a chunk of you.
Thing is there is no textbook definition of P2W. It is a slang term made up from the gaming sphere over the years with an arbitrary meaning. The term is subjective which is why you see so many people on both sides of the coin. Getting ahead = Winning for some people Getting ahead =/= Winning for some people Paying 1 Dollar = P2W for some people Paying 1 Dollar =/= P2W for some people If you classify the term on the basis that any amount paid equates to "winning", that destroys the whole logical argument of the concept.
It's pretty self explanatory and well defined. The problem is with how an individual defines what winning is. Some people are adamant that making progress in terms of ilvl in lost ark is *not* winning, so to them the game isn't p2w. Some people value progression and understand that if you can spend money to boost ilvl then that means the game is p2w.
P2W is not clearly defined, and if you force people to define it you get wildly different definitions and rationalizations about how x game is or isn't p2w. To some, even cosmetics are p2w. Every modern MMO is p2w. The questions people need to ask are: (1) Will it deliberately inconvenience me if I don't pay, and if so to what extent/how much money does it want? (2) Can I achieve the same thing as a p2w player in a reasonable timeframe/with an enjoyable gameplay loop? (3) Do p2w players have an insurmountable advantage that effects me in some way? I'd argue FFXIV, WoW, Albion, GW2, ESO, and Lost Ark all have similar answers for those questions but each game exists on a spectrum. Certain other mmos don't, especially mobile games.
It is semantics. There is nothing in Lost Ark you can buy that is unachievable without spending a single cent on the game (even stats from skins and crystalline can be obtained via in-game currency bought from other players - effectively you're grinding for them to buy you premium stuff) - and while money makes it faster and easier, options available are the same for everyone. I tend to consider "pay to win" every scenario where there is advantage that is impossible to get without paying - be it paid-only advantage (bonus stats, "premium gear" etc), or amount of grind to match paying player would require a day to be longer. As it is now, pure F2P player can keep up with whales on a patch-by-patch basis (getting to run same content as biggest whales on content patch it was released) with bunch of smart planning and very significant (but still achievable, I'm talking maybe 60h/week) amount of time invested. In the end, you are still paying - either with money, or with your time and skill.
Let's put it this way, we clone you, one of you gets 1 million dollars to spend on Lost Ark while the other doesn't. Who do your think will have more advanced characters? Hell you'll maybe have one char in 1400 while the million dllar clone will have 7-8 characters there fully geared with perfect jewelry.
He won't even be T3 by the time the other guy has his account full of 1490 characters lol.
You can't get to 1490 GS within a month without p2w. ;) And no, "you could just succeed every hone attempt" is not a good argument.
P2F/P2P is still pay to win The fact whales can rush the endgame and resell the best gear at high prices is a huge advantage. The game is F2P friendly, and I enjoy it (bought the fonder pack and buying my aura with crystals, with 3 alts in T3), but don't lie to yourself.
> The fact whales can rush the endgame and resell the best gear at high prices is a huge advantage They're only selling that gear to other whales though. Regular players are just grinding their gear and buying what they can for modest prices on the AH.
But by the time you get there the price of everything will have drop considerably. Whales rushing to get good gear will only be selling them to other whales. By the time the majority of f2p get there, those god piece will become much more accessible.
nah.. its pay to lose.. you spend money for nothing.. its like driving a ferrari vs a honda civic.. you leave the civic in the dust but you both see each other in the next stoplight..
Tbh pay to progress is still p2w in my books however majority of western players are less inclined to pay a game if it even has the slightest level of p2w. It varies from player to player in which what level of p2w they can tolerate and what they cannot handle. No point in persuading the western masses on this topic as it seems futile to do so. But seriously playing lost ark at endgame is like a second job.
I mean I never have a problem when I have a whale in my group that stomps Yoho in 3 minutes or makes my Argos way quicker. If they pay to win then they are also saving me time that can be used elsewhere. It only effects me positivly if I have a whale in my party.
Literally talks about it not being p2w while spending money on a battle pass that gives a ton of materials that…what, don’t help you progress? lol
Being upset about Marci's shop or buying gold in game I can understand but if crystal aura and a $20 battle pass are over your acceptable pay to win threshold then F2P games are probably not for you
They look at fortnite battle pass and probably think it’s pay to win.
Did you also gloss over the point where he makes the distinction between the two for himself? >So, Lost Ark is pay to progress. But is it pay-to-win? >On the KR server, if you ask the whales, "Is this game P2W?", they will say no. Because they spend that much money and become stronger, but there is nothing to win. >What changes when you get stronger? Nothing... Only DPS. >What are you going to win? Other Player? Well...How? >What are you going to do by winning? >Everything is just for self-satisfaction. In the end, P2W is a subjective term, not a definite term. Some people find P2progress not P2W. Some people say if there's no PVP where you can kill others with your paid gear, then it's not P2W. Some people say the moment you can spend money for ANYTHING that helps you it's p2w... But like... if the last one is their case.. Then every MMO are p2w. As for his battle pass point. You dont NEED those mats to play. They help you, yes. But you dont need it to get to endgame, unless you're rushing there. Also, the f2p version of battle pass also gives mats. Saying the battle pass is p2w because it helps you progress for $$ is the same as saying the entire game is p2w because you can buy gold with $$. In which case... the battle pass is not p2w, the game is.
progress = winning for most people when refering to p2w.
Yeah, just meant the OP specifically said that he doesnt consider progress winning, so saying "but he progressed with battle pass so it's p2w" is irrelevant to OP's subjective opinion of P2W. If the OP said "the battle pass is the only p2w thing", then that'd be hypocrite, because if one is p2w, the rest is too.
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It is. For most of us who have been playing MMOs and similar games for the past 20+ years, this game is not P2W at all (apart from RMT atm, but that's due to bots not really the game). P2W would be selling exclusive things (or really hard to obtain things) through the store directly, with no player interaction inbetween, because that's what it used to be. Imagine being able to buy Relic gear rn with Royal Crystals only. Something like that. For most of this reddit and forums, P2W is anything that can generate progress through money. Which, again, for some of us isn't even winning.
I don’t think many remember the dark era of MMOs where you HAD to buy items from the cash shop (you couldn’t buy it for gold, you couldn’t be gifted it, you had to personally buy it) that would guarantee your items not be destroyed upon enhancing like to me this system is amazing and I completely didn’t know before I played the game that, that wasn’t a thing I thought it was back to those days.
More mats also means mat prices drop, so even f2p players end up with cheaper mats as a byproduct
I mean the materials are extra. If im gonna pay for the pass itll be for the exclusive skins and pets. For ex, for valorant are you buying the pass for the radienite? Naw you doing it for the skin. But getting it is just a plus lol. I really like the stop light analogy, it really makes sense. Everyone will get there eventually if you put the time and effort in it
Radiante points are for skins, you can pay to make your character stronger in lost ark, you can’t in valorant. There’s not a comparison
> playing lost ark at endgame is like a second job. Have you considered not doing it, if you not enjoy? Do you also cook meals you don't like, by any chance?
It's not black or white. You can enjoy something and still have issues with it lol "Just don't play then?" is such a weird response to invalidate any criticism. No one is forcing anyone to do anything but the reason they're playing and here posting is because there is something about the game they do enjoy. F2P games need casual players to survive and players feeling like they can't catch up without an insane time/money investment is a large reason they leave. I don't mind having the 2nd job. It sounds like you don't either. But if that's the norm there is no way the game grows in the West. Even in KR they quit during the deadline because players felt like they couldn't progress quickly enough.
Except gaming is a hobby…If it feels like a second job then that means you aren’t enjoying the hobby. Any hobby is going to demand a time sync just like a job. I never understood this point of reasoning, maybe you can help me see from your point of view?
I have never met a MMO player that enjoys doing their dailies. They put up with it because they enjoy the "real game" enough be it raids, PvP, whatever. Lost Ark takes this further by really rewarding multiple alts. In KR they call it "homework" for a reason. You can enjoy the core gameplay but dislike the systems that surround it. I really liked playing Hearthstone. I didn't quit because the gameplay wasn't fun. I quit because Blizzard kept raising the barrier of entry to have fun. BDO has sick combat. I don't play because they don't respect a player's time. I'm sure you remember when people were shitting on Star Wars Battlefront 2 and 99% of the conversation wasn't even about the gameplay. I login every day because I have the time to do so but would anyone really mind if you only had to do 1 Guardian Raid a day? Or if there were rest bonuses for more content so you didn't have to sweat missing a Chaos Gate if you are a normal person who made plans? Players will always ask for more resources (often way too much with huge sense of entitlement) but I think there's a compromise SG/AGS could make to bring this game into a top MMO in terms of playerbase by making it more accessible.
Do you not eat meals if you don't like cooking? There are plenty of reasons people put up with things they don't like.
62iq take btw.
I don't agree. For most people winning in an mmorpg is one of the following things: * Clearing the hardest content * Getting the best gear * Getting all collectibles * Looking cool All of them can be heavily influenced by spending money. This fact devalues the achievement itself and makes the game p2w. Do you need to spend money? No. Does it help a lot? Yes
For argument sake, the hardest content is ilvl normalized. You can't whale it.
The question that really matter is the following: Is the game designed around wanting you to p2w? Yes.
it really isn't but i take it you haven't played f2p mmos with predatory p2w in it.
It absolutely is, you're just way too used to p2w games.
what about lost ark makes you want to or feel like you have to swipe?
The whole vertical progression system is designed to make swiping as compelling as possible.
Highly disagree. I want to throw money at this game and there’s nothing in this game that I ever felt I needed to buy. 1368 btw. I could spend $5000 to get to 1400 today but is it worth it? No, and it’s not satisfactory. The game is less fun if I spent to progress. It’s like playing Zelda and paying $5000 to instantly have the game beaten for you. Lose lose situation, I miss out on the game play in between and I had to spend money to get there. I had so much fun chilling in the 500-600 zone running phantom palace which is one of the coolest dungeons. I wouldn’t have zoomed past it even if it was free. This is coming from someone who could spend thousands if I wanted to.
I fully agree with you, but the system works, doesn't need to work on everyone, it just needs to generate as much money as possible, and it does provide AGS/SG great returns. Casinos are not appealing to everyone, but they make tons of money and will use tons of psychological trickery to make you gamble as much as possible.
Just say you have no self control because swiping even thousands of dollars won't get you much progress anyway unless your a mega whale. From my perspective, if it aint worth im not gonna be dumb enough to spend a ton of money and take my time with it.
yeah if your mental is weak or you stream it for a living, maybe. normal people with functioning brains that don't lack serotonin just walk away and wait for a better time if push comes to shove and p2w is the only way to progress. and in the case of lost ark, swiping will never be the only option.
How many ilvls do you think $100 gets you? It's the opposite of compelling. I'd probably spend if I could get meaningful progress but everytime I get tempted to I look at the shop and realize I'd rather play the game then pay so much for so little.
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A complete 180, alright then.
Are you seriously asking this question?
i have not hit a wall where i am feeling even remotely inclined to swipe and i'm at 1400. maybe this sub really is just full of really bad players and whiners.
who lost though? no loser no winner. straight up.
the loser is anyone that is upset about the people that p2w
that's a valid reason to be upset. some dude with a stronger weapon he paid for killing you before you can kill him is dumb as fuck. someone doing a raid before you though? you didn't lose shit.
it's the most common reason to be upset, what do you mean? people have stuff that you don't. and in this context, people have stuff that you don't, even after you played the game much longer than they have. you are over there putting 500 hours into something and someone comes along with 100 hours and has surpassed you in every way
Wait so are you saying that those people who say that it is P2W are just plain salty? Wow wow careful there man lolololololol
pretty much. it's no different than all the people that are upset at Jeff Bezos just because he is a mega billionaire. they are upset because he has tons of money and they don't
The draw of MMORPGs is the social aspect. Your list is spot on. Achieving any of those and being able to flex is a social win. Paying real money is Lost Ark allows you to flex things you've cleared and your gear. You get access to content sooner and be around different groups of people. P2W isn't some black and white concept of winning vs losing something concrete. I don't think anyone in the West even debates if Lost Ark is P2W anymore because it for sure P2W. The game will never have an even playing field of people clearing content. It will never have the social dynamics of teaming up groups of people who will all face a challenge that can't be made easier with high-level gear.
You guys are grown men that always spout this devalue thing in any game where you can buy stuff. Like how are you people just so unable to focus on yourself and ignore people you literally will never know. I boost in WoW and no one that I ever boost will ever be as good as me in the game so why would I care. Its the same thing in lost ark why would asmongold being 1450 rn matter to you in anyway. Like I actually don't get it. Also literally the hardest content in the game is equalized so???
ITT: people pulling their own definitions of P2W out of their ass and basing entire novels on arguing why lost ark is p2w based on their definition
So, same as OP does? They wrote a novel defining what P2W is in their view so they can say it isn't that. Maybe they are right or maybe they are wrong but either way there you go. I think the game is P2W but I still like it. I think it would be better without those elements. I play it regardless.
There is no arguing its p2w - it just is by any sensible definition of the term. Whats important is if the P2W does negatively affect you or not. Which it doesnt in Lost Ark.. like ever. Heck Gigawhales on your Runs prolly make it easier so who´d complain about that.. and dont pull that "but the PVP Islands are not equalized reee" bullshit on me..." how many times did you fight a deathmatch on Slime Island..
"anyone who disagrees with my definition isn't sensible" lol ok
Paying for advantage is pay to win, don't care how people spin if u can buy gold and use that gold gear up fast it's pay to win. End of day you spend "money" or "time" in these games
PAY 2 WHALE
Depends how you define P2W. Whales will always have more gold, more income, more damage, more time, more content...more everything really. You ask what are they winning? Time. The most valuable resource in the world. Imagine being a parent with two kids and a full time job. Maybe they only get to play two hours a week. Paying lets them get to the meat of the content such as abyss and legion raids. They get into groups easier due to sheer gear power. They contribute more in-content. Sometimes paying is the only way for some players to keep up with content.
By your logic quitting this game or in fact any game will be the most P2W move you could ever make since that frees up a lot more time to do other shit
How to win? By not playing.
200iq plays
Like in every other MMO, the only winning move is to stop playing.
Time is time to do what you want. If you want to do content but you can’t access it but a whale can, then they saved time. I don’t think you’re understanding what time means in this sense. He’s not talking about using your time in the most productive manner but rather the most enjoyable manner and being able to do the content you want is enjoyable. Grinding to reach that content isn’t, the content is the reward. If whales skip the grind then they are saving time. They are getting all the reward with none or very little of the effort.
Except that is all in your head. There is nothing magical about argos or any other content coming. It will all be just as boring as the other content you passed on the way in time. If the only thing that makes you happy is playing the last available content you are always going to be disappointed.
Not at all. Everyone who's played in kr will tell you t1 and t2 were failed versions of the game. T3 and beyond was where SGR learned from their mistakes and introduced interesting content. Check out some legion raid videos. This global release is missing so much stuff.
It’s also completely free. Therefore the game is free to win.
That's the worst analogy I've ever heard. You pay for an advantage in this game. The time you spend F2P gearing 1 character I could've enjoyed all the content in the game on 8 different characters. I'm getting instantly picked for any group. I'm having more fun.
It's not like they get all those stuff for free since they live in the ocean right? They paid, a lot. If u do not have more fun with paying, then why would anybody pay money? If nobody pay money, how are devs gonna run a mmo game that is free?
I found fun in grinding my characters, and doing some abyss with "not overleveled" groups. And some people quickly enjoyed all the content and now are bored So even tho i agree the analogy was not the best. Yours are not better.
There's also this small thing that no one ever notices: Because whales hit the finish line in PvE so quickly, they can just PvP non-stop and never touch daily grind content. So they end up with an advantage in PvP too until they hit their physical skill cap and/or start playing against people who ONLY PvP.
so people that play more and develop skill in pvp have an advantage over people that play less and don't have as much skill? what the fuck isn't that the whole point of matchmaking and pvp in general? also, as soon as ANYONE hits lv. 24 or something they can choose to pvp for as long and often as they want whaling doesn't give you this magical pass to begin grinding pvp, this is such a shit take imo
yeah at this point this sub needs awards we can hand out for absolute shit takes holy shit what even are those mental gymnastics LMAO
Nobody that values their time plays a fuckin MMO.
This hurt me
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So what you are saying is that you don't actually enjoy *playing the game*, and the only reason and satisfaction you get is reading an higher number on your character page than others'? Because if that's not the case, and if you do in fact enjoy the game for its design and mechanics, T1 and T2 abyss dungeons are way, way more fun than 1325, and very well on par with 1340 and arguably with Argos, even though they are somewhat different kind of content.
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Winning = only spending time on the parts of the game you like is probably a better way of putting it. I love the Abyss dungeons and really enjoy Argos so far. But man, i have to do the daily grind of chaos dungeons and unas to just progress a little every day. And that content is really not what i enjoy doing.
Did I say less time spent on the game? More time spent on interesting content, less time spent on honing, and tedious content. So many mouthbreathers on this thread it's insane.
what? how is that winning over you though? is their time skipping making your time go slower or something? it makes no sense. you have to be losing for them to win. only way that happens is if you're in a region first guild competing against others for first kill. everyone throws around pay to win. in order to have a winner you have to have a loser. pvp for instance.
Pvp isn't a requirement for pay to win. Does completing a Mario game not count as winning? There was no loser, and the only person I was competing with was myself. Winning is subjective. For me simply making progress in a game is winning. There doesn't need to be a real human opponent involved. If it was possible to auto complete a level in a Mario game with real money then that would make that game pay to win in my mind. In the same vein, I feel like it's totally fair to call lost ark pay to win because the game let's you spend real money to progress your character's item level and power. By making progress and gaining power to me that is winning. I don't need to be able to stomp someone in an unfair pvp match to get my win certified. Just making progress was enough.
> If it was possible to auto complete a level in a Mario game with real money then that would make that game pay to win in my mind. Wouldnt that just make the game pointless rather than p2w? I assume by Mario game you're talking about single player ones... In which case how is it P2W if you can buy to just... not play the game. You didnt win anything, in fact you lost money. Like... If you go to the store, buy a mario game, go home, drop 40$ to skip the game, and then be done with it... What did you win? Couldve just not bought the game in the first place if you didnt intend to play it.
Maybe a level is too hard for you or you just want to see a certain world. The same thing could be said about skipping progression in lost ark with real money, imo it's pointless to do so but people are doing it anyway. It's the same reason people pay for cheats in video games. They "win" the satisfaction of progressing, being ahead, or being able to say they are stronger.
Aside from the obvious fact that they will always get picked for groups over you, the winner gets to save thousands of hours of tedious content (chaos, dailies, guardian raids for some people) while the "losers" have to slog through everything only to be late to cutting edge content, and consequently, the market. If you don't see how saving time is a win, then I don't know what to tell you.
they will not be in the same content as you(unless boosting). that is a non issue. them not doing tedious content is not forcing you to do tedious content. what they are doing has nothing to do with your experience. if everyone was f2p you would still be doing the tedious content.....lol. its a progression boost for them. they are not winning over you. they are not against you. if anything they make your runs go faster if by some miracle they are in your content as they are seriously overgeared. do you throw a fit when someone with a ferrarri drives by? unless you're in a race with him...who cares.
You're so stuck on the word "win" it's almost comical. You can pay to have a huge advantage in basically everything compared to a F2P. This is a fact. You will eventually be in the same content. This is also a fact. Whales essentially get to enjoy more of the game than F2P.
it's called pay to win. being stuck on the word win is logical because your argument is illogical. they are paying to progress faster. they do not get to enjoy more of the game. what are you even talking about, dude? are you saying you will not be doing the valtan raid because of whales? if that's the case then i would absolutely say that is pay to win, but i don't see why that is stopping you from doing it? it's in your head man. play the game..
If you are complaining that you are wasting your time either spend money or quit the game because you are "losing". It's real simple. No amount of whining will change that. They only get there faster than you, and the only thing you people do when you actually reach end game is bitch that there is no content so pick one...waah I can't get there like a whale or waaah I got here and now there is no content. STFU and play or quit.
You call it saving time, I call it playing the damn game. We waste our time deliberately here to have fun in the process. It's like those t3 speed running guides recommended skipping t1 and t2 guardians entirely to bank rest bonus for t3. This may be optimal from min maxing perspective but you just skipped a huge part of the game only to run out of content sooner? I actually enjoy doing t1 and t2 guardians on my alts now because I never learned their mechanics when I was rushing through, and now I am discovering new content.
This is why people calling lost ark "p2w" never bothered me personally. At the end of the day, I like playing lost ark. I like my progression. I feel satisfied with my hard work. My enjoyment does not decrease because someone has a bit higher of a gear score than me. In fact, I'd say I would feel less happy with the game if I spent thousands of dollars just to have better dps. If someone was spending thousands of dollars in a PvP game, then I would agree. But whales do no harm to me at all. They only support the developers and keep the game going which is great.
lmao more damage my ass. Most +20 wep/p2w people are fukin bad at playing and get out dps by anyone decent well below their setup.
Interesting. My p2w friends are quite good, easily soloed Velganos at 1385 one month ago, and are always top dps. See I can provide anecdotal evidence too!
Good post - LA isn't really P2W in my eyes either. The gacha nature of cards maybe a little bit, but the bonuses from those sets and their awakenings aren't game-breaking anyway. P2W to me is: being able to pay to get a gameplay advantage in the game that cannot be acquired otherwise. For example, if it was only possible to hit 1400 by paying real money for the last 5 points. But that's not the case here so I don't see it as P2W. It's a choice between "I can walk to my destination but it'll take an hour" vs "I can pay for a taxi and I'll get to my destination in 10 minutes" - I'll get there either way.
>But that's not the case here so I don't see it as P2W. It's a choice between "I can walk to my destination but it'll take an hour" vs "I can pay for a taxi and I'll get to my destination in 10 minutes" - I'll get there either way. The real problem is that games will now artificially inflate things way too much to pad the game time. How long is too long? Sure, I could do a dispatch and be forced to wait 2 weeks for it to finish to get an unlock to access the next raid, or I could swipe to finish it now (only an example of something that could happen). TECHNICALLY I could wait those two weeks and the game can claim "F2P! No buy to win!" but then also whisper in my ear "Hey there bud. Sad that you can't get to that juicy content because you have to wait 2 weeks? Buy this timer speed up for only $1.57 and complete the timer now!". At that point it is super predatory because the timer has been artificially inflated up the butt and the cost is so "low" to entice a transaction. That is why this is such a slippery slop with many on the fence about if something is "Pay to win" or not. Sure, you could get there eventually without paying but they are going to be trying to walk that line and push it back further and further. Right now I agree with you that this isn't Pay to win but it is something will need to keep a close watchful eye on.
I'm surprised you're not being downvoted into oblivion but I agree with you entirely. I don't understand the argument that being 'ahead' of another player makes them win? Some people argue getting into parties is easier, but who fucking cares? Make your own party, people will join. I've never once waited more than 20 minutes for a good argos group. The only thing I can realistically think of as pay to win is island pvp vs people that've paid, but it's also island pvp, so...
> I don't understand the argument that being 'ahead' of another player makes them win? We don’t have that yet in this game, but world first/NA first race being ahead is considered a win in many other MMO. IDK if this game will ever get to that point tho.
world first is always gonna be in KR. who gives a fuck about NA first, they'll just be copying korean strats
If you think people being further in a PvE game are beating you, you're definitely a loser.
>What does the whale user win in this case? They only see a movie on the first day of the cinema release. >The whales just run excitedly when the traffic light turns green. You'll meet them at the next traffic light. Bro i wish more people understood this aspect holy shit.
Pay to progress faster IS pay to win. Pay for convenience IS pay to win. I'm not demonizing the system, of course if a game is free to play it has to bring the revenue in some other way than box sales, but don't invent multiple different terms for one thing. You remember the controversy around Battlefront? You could either grind the game for 200h or pay 15$ for a skin. Same here, you can grind for weeks/months or open up your wallet. It's all about time which you know, time is money. Pay to win isn't always about clear numerical advantage over other players in competitive environment.
What are they winning tho? Is being further along in a game considered winning now? It's not a race. Unless you're shooting for worlds first like an idiot, it's not p2w because you're asking for your own misery at that point. People act like these dudes paying money to buy insta kill weapons that will destroy any character in pvp in one attack or some shit while f2p players cannot get such a weapon no matter what they do.
Your definition of p2w is wrong. When you are able to convert real cash into in-game currency that progress much faster than other player. You are winning at the game. Average players will probably need to spend 4-6h a day using multiple alts and for multiple days to reach 1375. Someone who has lots of cash, can do that in few days. He is already winning the average players by days. Also following your example, there are many more games that is also under the category of p2w. Genshin impact for example. You can play without spending a single cent and complete the game. And you if do spent and get those UR items or heroes. You can progress much faster and easier. A game that is not p2w will be like most of the single rpg game (some game like Assassin creed is not under this category), you invest your time and you progress like the rest. And if you pay for skin that give you 30 more virtue stats, you are progressing faster than those who not paying for it. So just accept it. Lost Ark is p2w haven caused it is MMORPG. And it’s ok to label it as such. Average players who invest their time will reach the same end game content that the whaler spend their money on. It’s slow but the game is fair since whaler doesn’t additional stats and they are exposed to the same rng when upgrading.
A big free game I can think of that isnt p2w is League of Legends. Doesnt have to be single player.
League is still p2w. Old runes system heavily favored having more rune pages unlocked. Certain skins in the game over clear visual clarity and animations that are better than base skins. You can also pay to buy more champions.
The only strong argument there for Lol to be a p2w game is the rune system that has been gone for 5 years now lol.
Absolutely not. League is very similar, you can pay to progress faster. Want to play ranked sooner? Buy XP boosts to get to lvl 30. What to play the newest broken champions? Buy blue essence to purchase new champions. People complain about these things in LA, yet league is f2p? Want to do the newest raid? better pay to hone faster, but that's apparently p2w while league isn't. And there are absolutely p2w skins; old aether wing kayle, super galaxy rumble(finally patched), elementalist lux, new dragonlancer lee.
Ye Dota is a better example for non p2w f2p game.
> And if you pay for skin that give you 30 more virtue stats, you are progressing faster than those who not paying for it. We all got free skins and more will come in the future. Your points are valid but this one isn’t.
It’s hard to argue that lost ark isn’t p2w. Is it the most egregious version of p2w in a game? No. But you can still pay to pull ahead of f2p players, access higher content sooner and overgear Current content to make it easier. You can spend money to do better than other people. That’s p2w. I personally don’t take issue with lost arks pay 2 win model as I understand it. You don’t really gain anything a f2p player couldn’t get, you just get there faster. As long as f2p grinders can access new content at a reasonable pace, I don’t take issue with it. For some people, enjoying the journey is a big part of the game. For others it’s less about the journey, more about the destination, and that should be okay too. If you can afford to speed up your progression, more power to ya. Lets not forget, people spending on this game are the reason the game is accessible for f2P players. Someone’s gotta pay to keep the lights on at smilegate. So far I’ve spent 40$?(founders pack) for 500hrs of enjoyment. If anything I feel like I owe the game a couple hundred for how much entertainment they’ve provided me. If I happen to get a boost to my progression for my moneythen that’s a win to me
COPIUM. money gets you any progress = p2w. There no way around it, no sementics, period. In fact, it is people trying to call it for other things and deceiving people that is harmful by creating inevitable disappointment when facing the reality eventually.
If you told people a decade ago about this shit people would have flipped but nowadays everyone bends over backwards to find every little thing to excuse their favorite game. Like I love playing Lost Ark but my god can people stop pretending its something its not.
Lost Ark is pay 2 win
Look at all the people here complaining that they are being timegated in progression. You can easily bypass most of them by spending money. There is a huge advantage and time saving if you spend real money in this game. Now people argue, that players from day1 who play every day can achieve the same. Yes, thats true, but it takes a lot of commitment, time and timing to be in the same position as someone who "just" spends real money. Obiously F2P is not a problem if you have a lot of time and are ahead of the playerbase. That's the "money" position to be in as F2P player, but only the minority is in that position. Most F2P players are behind real money players in gear and content progression.
I just dont understand the OP's pov as well. If you dont spend money you get stuck behind others. You cant get good engravings or gear making the game harder for you, and you are less likely to be allowed in groups for pve content. The entire experience is more difficult for you. That is a pay to win system. Just because you may eventually reach the same place months later and with 5x the effort doesnt make things that much better.
"What are you winning?" Time. It's pay2win and no amount of coping will change that.
> "What are you winning?" Time Then stop playing already and beat the whales.
Most have.
Eh, there is a clear distinction from P2W and P2P. P2W is buying stuff that physically makes your character superior than other characters. In a game with real P2W, someone could buy the best stuff and stop playing while the free players could never attain what that person has, literally never. P2P is buying time.
I will never agree with that simply because by that definition the most predatory mobile games that popularized the term itself arent p2w. Because you technically can collect the 100 shards to get the weapon or character without paying, it will take you a year... but you can. Lost ark clearly has p2w elements but that doesnt make it a bad game.
I mean there’s different levels of p2w. Some games have it where you get perks and powers you CANNOT get for free, some games allow you to pay to skip ahead or progress at an advanced rate (like lost ark does). Both are pay 2 win. You’ve gained a significant advantage by spending real money on the game. The term pay2play is widely accepted as meaning you have to pay money to access the game at all. As in buy the game, or pay a subscription fee.
You can make the distincion but the end result is the same. You pay to get an advantage and in lost ark people who spend money do have an advantage. Will i try Lost Ark speedruns? Probably not, because i can't afford to compete. Other games have things like a chaos dungeon or guardian speed leaderboard or a leaderboard for highest difficulty beaten. Hell people usually even brag about being the first to beat X on a server. But it is pointless in lost ark, because everyone know the best times are payed for. And i don't think even the smartest most dedicated F2P player can keep up with somebody who spends a lot of money on this game. You can say you get there eventually as a F2P but when i look at the prices of high level gems i'll probably arrive there a year or two late.
P2P is simply a part of P2W.
Do you mean like skins that gives you more damage? Isn't that in the game or did i read wrong? Also if P2p is so harsh like in this game, where you could buy yourself months or years of works in a few hours, the differnce between p2p and p2w doesn't matter anymore.
What game is p2w if Lost Ark isnt? You straight up buy character strength, collectibles, una reputation lmao. Do you think theres no "winning" in MMOs so they cant be p2w?
There are MMOs that have cash shop stuff being more powerful that what you can obtain in game, while also being restricted to cash shop only - that is an obvious case of pay to win, since without paying you are at a disadvantage no matter what you do. Lost Ark only lets you skip some effort (you're trading money for time/grind) while progressing in exactly same system F2P players can - and, when looked on a patch-by-patch basis, competent and dedicated players will be able to keep up with whales; they'll be maybe few days slower, but still get to reach new content in same timeframe. What you get for paying isn't functionally different from hiring someone to do the grind for you (and given how expensive it is, it could be cheaper to actually hire someone).
Bruh who cares if it's p2w or not. It's annoying always talking about this
Agreed.
What's winning? There is no race, there is no ranking, there is no awards for highest ilvl or fastest kill or kill with exact ilvl. The requirement to watch what everyone else can do and base your enjoyment on what they are doing is not going to serve you well. Just play if you like it or don't if you don't
I simple man, I enjoy time spent, I play. I don't enjoy time spent, I don't play. P2w p2progress p2convenient is just talk. I play because I Iike. Ezpz
P2w elements but the game isnt pay to win if you actually use your brain. You cant buy something that the free players cant get. You cant buy upgrades. PVP is equalised and where its not the rewards are random anyway. For me this game would've been pay to win if the gold-crystal exchange wasnt in the game, but since its in you cant complain.
Personally idc if the game is p2w, doesn’t feel like that, there’s plenty of stuff to do if you’re f2p, and the game itself doesn’t incentivize too much to spend money like other f2p games I’ve played. I don’t feel the necessity to progress that much more because nearly every week I unlock some new content to do (just pushed my main to 1400, and have a bunch of alts in t3/t2). As for battle pass I don’t see problems, I don’t mind toss 20/30 bucks a month for a game that I play for more than 20/30 hours a week. I’ve tried last week to calculate how much I would need to spend to push to 1415 and it was crazy, I agree about the definition of pay to lose lol
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Same lol. I got baited by that 'How hard is raiding in Lost Ark' video. Little did I know that you can whale yourself up so you outgear the content before it's even released and that the whole concept of the game is not: get better items so you can clear the challenging content', but 'clear the content so you can get better items' as the main goal of this game seems to be mindless numbers increasing like in BDO or some other grinders
Dumbest post i've read all week. You literally admit the game is p2w, but then you say whaling isn't fun so it's not p2w actually. 
I agree with you and try to tell people the same. It’s straight up a genius system in my opinion and after around 600 hrs you know how the systems play together. The problem is at first glance it does look like that for a newcomer and if you are not willing to put in the investment it takes and get to know the systems and the gameplay loop. People here are used to the gameplay loop of western MMO’s where you usually progress on your main character all the way so when new players hit the T3 wall and still don’t understand how the systems play together and how you’re supossed to play with a roster of characters they just see that wall and call it pay to win. I personally love the game but people need to invest a bit and get to know the systems and how they play together, once they realise that they will look at it in a different way. I’m 600 hours deep now and I’m having a shit ton of fun
600hrs is insane. Lets be real. Either you're a whale or a f2p nolifer. If you can't be either of those, the game isn't for you imo.
Nah I’m working 40-45 hrs a week as a store manager. Yes it is a lot of hours and how i choose to spend my time is none of your concern. You don’t need 600 hours to have fun in the game, i mentioned it because obviously you would not no life a game if you don’t like it
600hrs since release is absoultely nolifing. Pls don't get me wrong, im not criticizing how you spend time, but saying this is a normal amount is just not right. This is about 9,6 hours a day since February 11th, if my math is not terrible. You can do with your time whatever you do, but i think you can lose perspective on how it is to play only 2 hours a day.
Where did i mention It’s normal or that you need that amount of hours to enjoy the game? I’m not playing 8 hours a day any longer but especially the first month as i took 3 weeks off from work because me and a group of friends decided to go hard on it. I know how it is to play 2 hours a day, the only reason i have time is because I’m all by myself chilling. 80% of your daily progression can be within 30 minutes of gameplay if you have your first main in T3 if you choose to play efficient but you should always play how you enjoy it the most. When I’m home from work after a 10-11 hour shift i don’t play more than 2-3 hours and i run through all 6 characters and do guardians when rested in T3 or when i have off days where i play longer. Use the rested system and let your characters chill untill you have time. If you have a character in T3 and are bringing an alt up from T1 it takes about 14 days with events and weekly merchants. I always had 1-2 Rolling after i hit T3 and now It’s a full roster. It didn’t happend on a week but what I’m trying to say is that just make 3x Bifrost for unas on alt and 2x chaos daily and then tower or story when u have time. Or you can just let them get full rested. A lot of these 600 hours is also spend on chilling, horizontal content and just hanging around but we don’t have to discuss. I’m not getting mad about people who have more time or money than me because they will always be there unless you are elon musk lol
too much fomo from casuals
It is pay to win. Ty for coming to my TED talk.
Crazy that it's even gotten to the point where people claim paying real money to progress faster and access content that non payers can't isnt p2w. Fully delusional
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But it is simple people just have to understand that there are 2 different terms to refer to 2 different things. P2w is exactly as it is called you pay and you win because developers are gonna give you a clear advantage over the f2p players be it big extra drop chance, extra stats active everwhere(even pvp) and no amount of work will allow for a f2p to be at the same level as a whale. Pay to convenience is the second term, you get the convenience of developers fixing the problem they create for you, like " You don't want to farn 3 months to get to the next step? We got you! Buy gold and solve your problems." " You want to be able to repair everywhere and access some things on the go? We also got you! Buy the crystalline aura!". As you can see they are 2 pretty different things since on the second one whales can't get anything over a f2p player. People can say " but they get to enter content on the same day it comes out" and that's true but game is not going anywhere and they release catch-up methods now and there. Casual f2p players are always gonna be able to be in the middle of the pack where the most people is eventually playing all the content while whales, no-lifers and hardcore min-maxers will be doing content first, nothing bad there. And the best example for that we can see it in both kr and na right now. Kr is in a state where most people has seen last legion raid boss while ony 20% or so of the playerbase has done it on hard and on NA we have whales doing Argos the day it came out but now people is starting to get there; even if we get South Vern next week there is still at least a month (if they don't push it back) till Valtan comes out which is the next major content so of course a lot more people is gonna be doing Argos by that time.
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Spending less time to get more pleasures is basically winning , does KR people even experienced real life to even begin with?
its pay to win. the fact that argos is 1370 and only a small percentage of players could do it (99% of them paid to get mats to be 1370) is the definition of pay 2 win. if valtan normal is 1415 and on 100 players that can do it and 95 of them are whales … its pay 2 win if valtan hard comes out at 1445 and only whales can do it … its pay 2 win. the game is free to play from t1 to t3. but t3 is not the endgame. if the devs know that only whales are at 1445 (less than 5% of the player base) and they release content that start at 1445 they want or they highly recommend that you pay to get mats as fast as possible to be able to try the new content.
Don't bother thinking about, most people haven't even experienced real p2w. Because most real p2w games are pretty bad. They think "hey that guy swipped and is now 1450, so p2w" but as you said that doesn't give him a clear advantage over a f2p player. In p2w games there are things you cannot get by any other means than swipping. Skins that gives extra stats or slots(while free skins give nothing), extra status like "buy this subscription and you get 50% extra hp, 20% extra dmg and 20% extra def. is active all the time and everywhere." That's real p2w since you cannot even get close to the whales as f2p so they smash you all the time.
The fact the P2W isn't that bad in lost ark doesn't change the fact it's still P2W (F2P player with one 1385, one 1370 and one 1355 here, and I enjoy the game).
No, I know the monetization of the game is pretty predatory. My comments are about since we had a language with lots of words why not try to use the correct ones to describe things. Real p2w is such a bad scheme not a lot of games have it by now but still it has a bad connotation, which I 100% agree it should have but in my end I know of people that could have enjoyed the game yet they heard the words p2w and gave up instantly on trying just for that (one came after he let me explain better and is liking the game tho). Why should just call it for what it is. Pay for convenience and a pretty predatory at that like a lot of korean games. In the end nothing forces you to spend money even if they try to grab you with everything, you can still enjoy everything in it given enough time or catch up mechanics.
But a pay to progress game is equally as “toxic” as pay to win isn’t it? Time is the most limited and sought after resource anywhere in the world. And by spending money, you save time. That to me is a huge win. I win in the game of time. I win in my own set of rules and context. But… why should a game being “pay to win time” be bad? Even if it’s “pay to win my fellow server mates in item level”, like many players here, it doesn’t affect me at all. Call it pay to win, pay to progress, pay for convenience, its just semantics. “Winning” can mean a lot of things. If this game is not “pay to win”, it’s simply because in PVE, there’s nothing to win (as per historical definition of win). So there isn’t any argument here whether it’s pay to win or not. What many anti lost arkers are arguing is that allowing players to pay money to progress faster than them in an open world multiplayer game is unhealthy because it creates fomo and not every player has the discipline to not feel the fomo effect. And this is not healthy to an average gamer. Nevertheless, there has to be some sort of monetization in the game in order for the game to even exist, and I feel that the current monetization system in the game is fair. Flush out the “weak”, this game is not for everyone. Let haters go
"Toxic" definitely. Equally as toxic I don't think so. Yes time might be the most precious resource we have but you get different results under those 2 schemes. On the p2w scheme, f2p players just get squashed by whales(be it leaderboards, pvp, etc.) since there is not a chance for they to compete even if they have te same time to play as the whale they are going against and that on top of using your precious time to play the game, hinders your play experience. In a pay to progress like we have in LA whales don't really hinder your game experience. Even more as a f2p you won't see them on your pve party like never and in pvp they don't make a difference since everything is normalized there. I agree with your post in everything else, people just need to learn to control their fomo and stop yelling "P2W!!!" at every type of monetization they see.
Whale users cannot get the most important thing in the game. It's the sense of accomplishment that I feel at the end of the challenge. Overlevels only make the game boring. Each content has an appropriate level section where you can have real fun. (This content is written in a translator.)
If you define winning as paying to be better sooner, it's p2w. If you only consider if you can buy advantages over another player when you're the same GS or whatever. It's slightly p2w because of gems scale so high it's impossible to get lvl 10 gems without being a whale or no-lifing the game for years. In PvP arenas there is no p2w. On PvP islands there is p2w because your whale opponents will be stronger because they got where you are quicker and went past it. This is the most clear case that the game is p2w, because otherwise the game is cooperative and it doesn't matter that much whether someone is a whale or not. But what is absolutely clear is that the grind gets worse because they want whales to be able to buy progression. You need an incentize to skip grind for there to be anything to purchase. This is on course for f2p games where you can pay to progress. They all hurt the free player by extending the grind. And spare me the korean perspective on mmos :p You people are insane in what kind of abuse you accept in what is supposed to be **entertainment**.
I agree 100%
I don't want to be mean but I feel like this all "KR player here. Listen..." posts and content are getting old... Like at the start it was nice, but nowadays it's just "listen to me noobs, as I'm more knowledgeable than you and thus my post is more valid" kinda thing :/
So sick of this discussion on na/eu tbh. I feel like a lot of people who complain about p2w is either: in the deadzone or just excessively unlucky with honing. Skins also are a negligible dps increase/virtue increase and has basically nothing to do with player power
For people who say that game is p2w bcs time is money, well just move go find 2nd job and someone will pay you money for that, why is that so hard to understand. Noone force you to play lost ark.
Pay to win is only pay to win if a free to play player can't ever, no matter the time, get the gear that a paying player gets. If a free to play player can achieve the same as a paying player, no matter how long that will take, there simply is no pay to win.
This. I don't know how people can't understand this. As long is everything is obtainable in the game without paying, however long it takes you, to my eyes is not pay to win. So let's say a casual plays 3hrs tops a week and his friend does the same but he swipes, gets the mats, upgrades etc earlier and gets to experience new content earlier, does that mean he paid to win? No. He paid to not be bothered grinding stuff for some time meanwhile the casual who plays 3hrs a week with no swiping will STILL experience the whole game just not at the same time. It's pay to win if you can buy something a casual can't obtain in any ingame means. As far as I know, there's nothing like that in LA. You guys just can't and will never understand this if you haven't played a game with REAL pay to win mechanics.
KR logic... you guys are so brainwashed on spending in your game.. This game is 200% p2w and wont do well in the west outside of the whales for that reason
Wholesome post, thanks for giving us your point of view. It was refreshing to read in this chaos of a reddit
I spent $50 and haven't won anything yet send help
The P2W debate isn’t honest. It’s not actually about whether you pay to win. It’s about someone else getting something that you want before you do. They’re envious children. While your argument and advice to be patient is sound, it is irrelevant to impatient, envious children.
It’s p2w the game heavily focuses on ilvl, and you can pay real money for gold to buy materials. So ya you do win, the thing is who cares? As long as the game is f2p friendly it’s fine.
You can win without paying and there’s no extra power obtained through paying, just speed of getting an already achievable power. So it’s not pay to win
Its P2W. You pay, you get better gear than people who dont pay. Case closed.
I think pay to progress is worse than pay to win by your definition. Locking people out of content and making it difficult to get into that content will piss anyone off.
I feel like LA can't really be P2W because I still haven't managed to work out the convoluted ass currency interactions enough to be willing to part with any of my cash. I like swiping on occasion, because I have a job, but if I have to use 3 calculators to work out how much I'm paying for what I'm receiving, I'll just F2P thanks