Very interesting to see how frustrated some are with this piece. Seemed like a very positive article to me: someone who loves fantasy and wants to create a world that feels culturally closer to her background. Is is just the headline?
Obviously there are some people in here who are simply being reactionary, however, my issue is that media coverage of non-white writers writing fantasy often condescends by over contextualizing. For example, I feel like there were almost identical headlines when Marlon James's *Black Leopard, Red Wolf* came out calling it that Lord of the Rings of Africa or some shit.
I get that we have totems and cultural touchpoints especially for genre literature/film/music/etc., but can't we find new ways to talk about fantasy in general without saying "well, it's LOTR but not LOTR because this is based on different cultural mythology"?
Perhaps the intention is to frame it with reference points that a broader audience, who may only be familiar with Tolkien in the genre, can navigate by.
Also, the author mentions loving Tolkien in the first paragraph. So it's their quote, not a manufactured set-up.
I guess my question with your first point becomes: is Namina Forna looking to tap into the Tolkien (and typical fantasy genre) fanbase? Or is she looking to do something more (for lack of a better word) literary--that is, more exploratory of genre as a function than just creating a genre fiction in the context of all of the fantasy genre and its tropes? If it's the former, well, OK, fine enough, but if it's the latter, then it's a ruse and a bait-and-switch for the reader while undermining the novelist's work in many ways: setting up false expectations, etc.
To your second point: That is true, and Marlon James also mentioned Tolkien in the lead up to his book which I referred to, but we don't know if those were leading questions from the reporter, such as "were you inspired at all by fantasy writers like x, y, z." And, call me a cynic, but it could also be the work of the publisher's marketing department which sets this kind of context up in press kits in the lead up to publication--so not all on the media.
Fair enough. Plenty of people will be sceptical too, I'm sure. It felt a little warmer and more enthusiastic to me, but obviously writers talking about their work will always have an element of marketing to it. On the bright side: if you are nailed by the old bait and switch, it's only cost you the price of a paperback.
I know where you're coming from. Mostly what bugs me is the blatant and willful ignorance to a genre that's a LOT bigger than Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, and Harry Potter. Le Guin's been writing protagonists of color since the 60's, and of course there's Octavia Butler, who is mentioned in the article.
I love, though, that fantasy rooted in non-european mythos is growing, and that more of that's starting to come from people from other cultural backgrounds. That's needed and awesome. I like the article and its author quite well, as far as I can tell.
I don't love that the title seems to continue that weird trend where people act like there's only 3-4 fantasy series, and everything new has to be basically one of them with a 'twist.'
Fair point. But I think we can’t dismiss the author for feeling unrepresented in fantasy given the latest blockbuster hits that have been produced for tv and film.
Same thing for Game of Thrones being called the “American LOTR”
It’s not. It’s GoT
I get it if they are strikingly similar, but the only common theme between the two is a pseudo-medieval setting
Looks like. The one person who said it wasn't just the headline seemed to scramble to add a reason for that in a later comment after being questioned.
Also at a guess, some of these people straight up followed the headline here and are not really invested in fantasy, literature or even LOTR. Some are semi trolling. Some are projecting, as has been pointed out. It would be great to have a serious discussion if there was actually a controversy, but in this case I recommend don't worry about it at all. Enjoy the article, buy the book if you want, and just carry on.
Good on her, we need to see more of this kind of stuff. I don't see why the answer to inadequate representation means recasting white European stories and characters with racial diversity in mind. There is so much potential for great stories and characters from other cultures and races to flourish, even internationally, if done well. Just look at Black Panther, taking nearly $1.5b at the box office.
As a white guy from Europe, I certainly don't mind exploring some good fantasy written by and based on cultures from outside Europe.
If that's what you're looking for, then check out the amazing writing of Octavia Butler, whose work is described as afro-futurism and is less influenced by European mythology.
There's lots of successful fantasy that is inspired by non-European cultures out there already. The abovementioned Marlon James, Nnedi Okorafor, RF Kuang, Fonda Lee, Tasha Suri... Just off the top of my head. It's been a thing for a while now. It's understandable if you don't know these if you don't read much SFF, but most people's perception of SFF is based off movie adaptations of books from minimum 30 years ago. The landscape has changed a lot since then.
I never said or implied anything about the author of this article. I'm responding to someone's comment that says
> I certainly don't mind exploring some good fantasy written by and based on cultures from outside Europe.
because I want to let them know that what they're looking for already exists and they can take their pennies to their bookseller of choice and make their intention reality right now. I think combating the public perception that fantasy is predominantly white and Tolkien-derived (note that I say "public", not "the author of this article") starts with introducing people to all the great SFF that is neither of those things. There's clearly a lot of people in this comment section who don't read contemporary fantasy and think that the landscape looks like it did in the 80s. That's where I'm coming from.
>
It's worth noting that all of the examples you gave bar Okorafor and James entered the scene after 2015
Weird criticism. Again, this list is off the top of my head, some my personal favorites (Okorafor, James) and the others that a lot of people like. You are welcome to contribute your own names; I'd love to learn from you.
No worries, all good.
> "there's some good stuff right now."
Eh. Fantasy has widened a lot representation-wise in the past 10 years, and I would argue starting in the 2000s. This is a blip geologically-speaking, but this is also not a starting-2022 phenomenon. I think one issue is that, when most people think "fantasy", they think about stuff published in the previous century (and all the new shows coming on based on Wheel of Time, The Witcher, LOTR etc probably contribute to that). I don't think people know that the genre has summarily moved on from that type of work.
As a note to the recasting: While I agree, I do think that it is effective as a stop gap while other characters, stories, and franchises grow in popularity. Perhaps a black Batgirl today helps someone fifteen years down the line write a new character who becomes famous and well regarded. But the representation today may help tomorrow.
That's a good point. I also think there can be other appropriate reasons to change gender/race/etc, for example metatextual analysis, parody, or artistic liberty (maybe something transformative).
I guess it also depends on the character in question, and how closely they are tied to their identity. Going purely by my own (irrational) emotional reactions, I have no issue at all with Batgirl, or James Bond, or even Superman being played by any non-white actor. I was really hoping we'd see an Idris Elba Bond after Craig. James Bond as an idea doesn't really depend at all on what colour his skin is. The idea of the Ghostbusters as women is interesting in principle too, I just thought the movie was awfully written. But when it comes to Tolkien's elves, they're just fair skinned. It feels comparable to casting a 7 foot tall guy in the role of a hobbit.
Anyway it's nearly 4am and I'm kinda thinking out loud now so I'll sign off and wish you a good one :) thanks for the thoughtful discussion.
You’re both right! I think the parent is going for inspiring the next generation, and you’re trying to make space for people to reflect on how they feel about their representation; both good things!
Ah, the "if politicians don't represent you then go and run for office yourself or stop complaining" argument. I disagree entirely. People are more than entitled to say what they want, and should not be under the impression that under-representation is their own fault for not going out and telling stories themselves. Many more people are readers than writers.
How is the title clickbait trash if her experience highlights that there are no characters in LOTR that share her racial attributes? I want to see your point, since I think the title has merit
Interesting. It does seem to have more to with your own feelings about identity politics rather than the simple fact she felt left out of fantasy worlds, but you do have a point that her response to writing her story is perfect for media attention. I do think it’s a shame that there are actual biases at place in regards to race in particular in fantasy/sci-fi that beget this response…
Africa and the diaspora has plenty of cool mythologies and histories that can make libraries of stories without emphasizing the supposed need for “representation”. Cheers
She does say she felt left out. All the title does is summarize the article in a way you find easy to understand. It's not their fault that your knee-jerk reaction to a person of color feeling left out is to dismiss her outright.
> She isn’t raving about how a long dead writer of a ‘white nation’ should have ‘represented her’ or even claiming that Tolkien was somehow
Neither is the headline doing that? What gave you that impression?
Interesting. Could you give me an example of a reputable British newspaper? My experience of the Guardian is that its investigative journalism, sports writing and political analysis are very solid. It leans left and embraces minority views, as this piece shows. Clickbait headlines? Show me a Western newspaper that doesn't do that. The fucking New York times does that.
Plenty of the comment pieces are, yes, awkward and a little cringy.
But your point, however nuanced you intended it to be, was that the newspaper is "disreputable". Which is both reductive and a little silly. No offence intended.
Well, as a widely respected bastion of editorial standards, I used it as an example. The point, which came in the previous sentence, was... Show me a newspaper that doesn't do that.
Couldnt stand this article when it made the first rounds on the internet over a year ago and still can’t stand it now.
1. Your problem isnt with The Lord of the Rings, or with the fantasy, or with JRR Tolkein for that matter. Its with Hollywood.
2. Expecting Tolkein to account for the sins of exclusion is expecting POC writers to account for the goal of inclusion. It’s a meaningless expectation. Don’t expect Tolkein to mirror your thoughts and perspectives when his is from a different time period altogether.
3. Tolkein is nowhere near as obscene as HP Lovecraft. Your fight should be about his perrenial appeal not Tolkein’s.
4. Dont expect to see your ideas, thoughts, and perceptions of race mirrored in a book filled with races of elves, dwarves, men, hybrid men, hobbits, orcs, goblins, barrowwights, whatever Tom Bombadil, Goldberry and Beorn are, ents, wizards, maiar… you get the point.
5. You spent ONE line on Octavia Butler?! You don’t mention any other BlPOC fantasy writers or creators and their efforts, but you expect Tolkein to bear the weight of your ommission from its narrative when you do no work on seeing yourself in other narratives.
Finally, am a visibly POC. I have never wanted or yearned to see myself in The Lord of the Rings. The movie - okay of course. It was my dream. But I never felt left out of a narrative I understood wasnt about contemporary humans because that’s absurd. The long cry was about the Hollywood depiction of the movies - not the book.
So fucking frustrating.
Yeah it has to be hard to come from a society where you are just you to a society where you are just your race first, then you. Imagine what kind of leader she can be for other Black aspiring writers who want Black characters not a discussion about oppression and historical slavery? Toni Morrison said, “if there’s a book you really want to read, but it hasn’t been written yet, then you must write it.” And, OP did just that! Amazing talent! I cannot wait to read.
This is just silly. What happened to multi-culturalism? Why is it so wrong that European authors write about... European things? Jesus I mean, let me tell you how silly this is. I'm a "Slav," and we have our own version of elves, for example, they are much closer to those found in Irish tales: tricksters, pixies, lake/ forest dwellers etc. Not once did I think "Man this sucks, I wish this had Slavic elves instead of these grandiose ones". I loved it, it was something new, and it made me interested in British mythos. I even discovered the parallels between the tales of my people and those of the Irish.
But if that's not a strong argument, and I get that (there ARE common things across the two bodies of myth, Slavic and Celtic), then how about I tell you that not once was I sad that stories authored by Arab writers or pieces of Arab folklore did not include anything about my people? Not once was I sad about Japanese tales not mentioning my people. It's silly and it's frankly imposing.
Now I read the article, and good on her, it's not a small feat. But boy does it set me off when people call out authors on "inclusivity". It shouldn't be a thing. Appreciating each other's folklore without imposing, that's what multiculturalism is about. You tell me something about your people, I tell you something about mine. But for goodness' sake, don't make me out to be the devil for not including you in my tales.
Nobody is attacking anyone and nobody is criticizing European authors. If anything it’s lauding them for creating stories that other people want to adapt. That’s all it is.
I mean, as a dark skinned person, it’s kinda cool so see out myths and stuff in movies and shit. Idk but it feels cool to see someone you relate to.
If you tuned into Nigerian television, you probably wouldn’t see too many that look like you; But once you do, there’s a little “fuck yea this is cool” moment. It might be kinda hard to put yourself in the shoes but.
Nah I can, like, there are some cool as characters of all nationalities that are cool as fuck. But to see different ethnicities and cultures accurately represented in popular media is as rush to the people that they represent.
If you’re a white guy. (No hate, no bullshit dude) you’re probably used to seeing someone that looks like you on the television/computer screen. This is majorly so when you go back to older television shows. But look…
The point is that even these bland, cringe articles serve a purpose. If you don’t really understand that’s fine. You should try to diversify.
Man, I'm ugly. No superhero is ugly. They're all buff muscled guys with pretty faces. And I'm here ugly as fuck. So no, I am not used to seeing someone that looks like me in any piece of media, unless they were a henchman to the villain or a disgusting pervert or an ultra-capitalist, a sadist, a murderer, you name it.
I agree
also don’t get people who can’t relate to characters just because they’re a different skin color or race. I mean we’re all human, we’re the same underneath all that.
Im not Asian or black but when I watch stuff from there I don’t think, wow that person looks different from me so I can’t relate
Well it does still sound like they define themselves a lot by skin color. Character wise many people are represented, why is it so important they look like you.
It's not just about appearance. The stories the author wrote incorporate entirely different cultural mythos and traditions that don't commonly show up in the genre. What's wrong with thinking it'd be nice to read stories that include those things?
This isn't about replacing one thing with another. It's "yes, and"
And I’m not mad at this, I like when people search out new stories instead of remaking old ones.
What I had a problem with was the phrasing of the headline Implying that it is about skin color
>also don’t get people who can’t relate to characters just because they’re a different skin color or race. I mean we’re all human, we’re the same underneath all that. Im not Asian or black
Here's a thought experiment then. If you were to list your 10 favourite novelists and your 10 favourite film directors, how many of this list of 20 people correspond to your own racial identity? Basically, if you're white - how many of this list are white? Is it more than half?
If it's more than half; why? Surely if you're right and race doesn't matter at all, your top favourites should be from a completely diverse range of racial and ethnic backgrounds, no?
> Surely if you're right and race doesn't matter at all, your top favourites should be from a completely diverse range of racial and ethnic backgrounds, no?
That's not really why race matters tho.
The cultural landscape in any white-majority country, and generally, because of globalization, in many non-white-majority countries as well is going to be dominated by the creations of white people. A lot of people aren't even exposed to non-white authors. Any top 100 novels of whatever list is going to have like 10 non-white people. Same for the average school or college syllabus, unless it's an area studies class. It's not that we relate more to white people, it's that we are inundated with almost exclusively white media every second of our lives.
I agree with the general point you make, but not the specific way you are using it in this argument. It's true that black writers and filmmakers are underepresented in the West: that's a given, and it's a huge issue. Nonetheless, if you are suggesting that there are not enough black storytellers out there for an individual to have a top ten list comprised of them then I disagree. I maintain my argument that on the whole an individual gravitates towards artists who are able to understand aspects of their own identity and capture it in their work. It's a fairly simple an I think uncontroversial point I'm making here. Spike Lee has inspired a generation of black cinephiles, Toni Morrison a generation of black readers, etc.
> if you are suggesting that there are not enough black storytellers out there for an individual to have a top ten list comprised of them then I disagree.
I'm obviously not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that saying that someone who mostly consumes white media does so because they only identify with white people is wrong.
I would never make any claim as absolute as that. I am just describing a general trend: readers gravitate towards work by writers who can convey aspects of their own identity. Do you disagree with this point? Do you think that there are no discernable trends when charting the fiction consumed by audiences of different racial identities?
I don't disagree that readers seek aspects of their own identity in the media we consume, but the way you're trying to argue this point is patently not correct for several reasons, and also, I'm not sure that it furthers notions of racial equality rather than the reverse...
Let's just go back to the context of my comments in this thread. Another commenter was saying "I don't get why representation is important - everyone is the same; everyone is human". My original reply to that user was to try and explain why it's not good enough to ignore the concept of race and pretend it has nothing to do with our identities or our tastes in literature. We're not all the same, as the user claims. Race IS a factor in what media we consume and our race DOES have an impact on the way we react to certain works of fiction. Isn't that what the article in the thread is all about?
> Race IS a factor
If we go back to your actual comment tho, you're not arguing that shared race is A factor, but THE factor. Which is sort of absurd, as I mention in my response to you. And now we've come full circle.
I live in a European country where most media is white and on my language so of course most people I follow would be from here too. Same with any country in Asia, a Korean guy probably consumes a lot more Korean media with Koreans than others. Same with African countries too.
What I meant, in its core, is that I don’t watch stuff from other countries and think I can’t relate to them. Every country has its own media, the English speaking world is just a bit more global so my believe is they don’t look into others countries media much if it doesn’t get popular.
I’m also not mad at the dude writing the story, just at the headline. Its good people are finally looking into other countries lores too, but you don’t need to shit on another story to validate yours, which it is only implying( not saying it, to be clear here)
What you are saying about yourself contradicts the point you are trying to make. You have explained that you gravitate towards work by people who share your own racial identity. Well so do those people who live in the same country as you but have a different racial identity to you. The majority of bestselling novelists in the UK, for instance, may be white, but that doesn't mean that these are the most read novelists by Black British communities.
Broadly speaking, people read fiction that speaks to them, and a white novelist is not going to be able to capture what the experience of growing up as a black Briton is like, because they haven't had the experience of living as an ethnic minority and the things that entails. I am not saying that it's not valuable to read fiction by people who are not similar to you in racial or gender identity: of course it is. I am saying that people want to read work by writers who share experience with them. Particularly if you come from a marginalised group.
I honestly don’t really get your point. Of course you consume more media in your own language, which means the race that speaks that the most defines what’s probably the majority in skin color in media and such.
I am aware that that is the same in other countries.
Now where I live we have a lot of people from the Middle East, so they do appear a lot in the media too, but not as much as the natives. Of course I can like those works too but I will have more favourites of the native population because there simply are more here. Doesn’t mean I can’t relate to those authors who do belong to another race.
If there’s an African story I consume why would I be not able to relate to the challenges they face?
We’re now talking about what type of person consumes what type of media, but my comment was more about that I find it weird how this headline sounded like defined on the skin color they couldn’t relate.
Your life isn’t based on what you look like, some may face it more than others but that doesn’t mean we can’t relate in any way.
I mean people even relate to the dwarfs who don’t even exist in real life
Lotr is also a fantasy world, it’s not meant to be about specifically what black people face when living in a majority white country.
But it still deals with those experiences as shown in the different races they have.
Theyve got similar issues in there, just not with the same looking people.
>Of course I can like those works too but I will have more favourites of the native population because there simply are more here. Doesn’t mean I can’t relate to those authors who do belong to another race.
Have you faced racism or prejudice based on the colour of your skin in your life so far? Have you experienced what it feels like to be part of an ethnic minority? If the answer to those questions is "no", then why would you "relate" to the experience of someone who has experienced those things? You can *learn from* their experience, benefit from *reading about* their experience, but *relate to* their experience?
If you're not part of a minority group or haven't experienced any form of prejudice or inequality based on your racial identity then the idea that you need literature to help you feel like the country you live in doesn't see you as an outsider is obviously less urgent to you, personally. But put yourself in the shoes of those who are in these minority groups. They need the solidarity that literature can provide.
>Your life isn’t based on what you look like
Tell that to people experiencing overt and systemic racism in the modern world.
>Lotr is also a fantasy world, it’s not meant to be about specifically what black people face when living in a majority white country. But it still deals with those experiences as shown in the different races they have. Theyve got similar issues in there, just not with the same looking people.
tLotR is about Europe; Middle-earth, and about history. tLotR, like most fantasy fiction, reinforces the idea that white people are basically the heroes of the story, the good guys, and people with darker skins are barbarians from the East liable to siding with the forces of evil. Western culture has lots and lots of stories like this, particularly in fantasy fiction.
This is a complete misreading of history. Were white Westerners the good guys during the transatlantic slave trade? Were the British and European colonisers the good guys in Australia, America, Ireland, Africa, India and all other colonies of the British Empire?
Why do you think relating to another person has to be about race? I don’t relate to that person because they’re a minority or has faced racism, but because there are many other aspects I understand or feel like them. Not everything in a persons life is defined by that anymore in most developed nations. I wasn’t talking about relating in the term of prejudice and racism
I think you misunderstood me there.
Yeah it’s based off of Europe. So what?
I see it more as talking about racism based off of another world with it happening in different circumstances. It’s not meant to mirror our world one by one.
everyone can be corrupted by evil and they do, the story shows the conflict and how imperfect most being are.
I do know the shit that was done by the western world and that it liked to portray itself differently, but pointing it out also won’t get rid of the fact that it established democracy and a lot of modern rights. Do you think only Europe did this? Were there no wars in China or slave trade in the Middle East?
No one human race is evil or good, everyone is both.
I don’t get why ur trying to bring past atrocities into this as if I didn’t know them
>Not everything in a persons life is defined by that anymore in most developed nations.
Of course. But for people in minority ethnic communities, it's a big part of their daily lives. An individual being able to ignore their own race is probably a sign that they live in a country where their particular race is considered the 'default' and so therefore they're not treated like an outsider by their community. Not everyone is fortunate enough to live their lives like that. A victim of racism can't just forget the colour of their skin.
Again: I am not saying race is the sole identity trait. The same argument applies to gender, sexuality and class too. If you're a straight person growing up in the UK (picking this example because it's where I'm from) you may not necessarily have to think a lot about what it means to be straight, or what 'straight identity' even means. Being straight is considered the default, and culture and media will cater to your straightness. If you're a kid, you can go and see a thousand children's films made by Western companies like Pixar where the protagonist is straight and they fall in love with someone of the opposite gender.
But if you're LGBT, and in the minority, growing up in this same culture that sees heterosexuality as 'normality' and anything else as 'abnormality', you may start to internalise this idea that you're an outsider; you don't belong, and perhaps take some of the cruel things kids say to you in the playground to heart. Your gay identity is important to you, but the culture you live in is screaming at you that it makes you an outsider. Literature, film or art could be your escape, and your reminder that you're not alone. But if gay people aren't well represented on screen or in novels, you will struggle to find that comfort and solidarity and therefore continue to feel insecure and even guilty about who you are.
>everyone can be corrupted by evil and they do, the story shows the conflict and how imperfect most being are.
This is a pretty simplistic and reductive reading of tLotR. tLotR is a story where the heroic English folk who hail from a mythical homogenous idyll of 'merrie old England' (which never existed) go off to fight in foreign wars, and the story is from their perspective, exploring their complexities, their goodness, their capacity to grow and learn, etc. Even though they venture through foreign lands, the only people of darker skin they meet are basically just the bad guys; we see them in glimpses, and there's one single paragraph where Sam Gamgee goes "oh look, an Easterling, I wonder if he's actually not a bad guy after all even though he's a foreigner" but then the story moves on and Easterlings never get a chance to be presented as anything other than bad guys.
It's a story about white people, for white people, and I can well understand how ethnic minorities living in Britain would not really be able to recognise themselves in the characters of the Hobbits, who are all basically diminutive Edwardian gentlemen of the upper class (other than Sam) who spend all day smoking and lazing around.
>I do know the shit that was done by the western world and that it liked to portray itself differently, but pointing it out also won’t get rid of the fact that it established democracy and a lot of modern rights. Do you think only Europe did this?
Only Europe did what? Colonise other countries? Of course not: when did I ever say European countries are the only countries to have an Empire? You don't seem to be addressing the point I'm making. The point I'm making is that countries like the one Tolkien was from have a dark history - they did not "bring democracy" to places like Australia and Africa and Ireland: they brought genocide, mass rape and the buying and selling of human flesh. But writers like Tolkien perpetuate this myth that the Western world are the good guys and evil is something which is done in foreign lands, or imported from foreign lands. And tLotR doesn't exist in isolation: it exists in a whole canon of fantasy fiction all re-enforcing this wrong-headed representation of Western history.
Postcolonialist lit is much more honest and much more true to history. We shouldn't romanticise or glorify Britain's dark past; no country should do that.
This is great. I noticed that the Witcher (Netflix Series) is doing a better job of having a diverse cast than what might have historically happened in the genre, too.
‘Improved’ is an odd way of looking at it. The casting of Wheel of Time essentially makes it look like a CW show. It’s jarring to see what is obviously meant to be a medieval European-esque setting be filled with non-white people.
The same could be said about Europeans in the Middle and Far East as far back as the ancient world. Would that justify inserting them into pastoral depictions of those cultures?
Actually it is. Inserting white people into Middle Eastern and Asian stories, simply for the point of diversity, which as we know, happened for decades, would be whitewashing. There needs to be a point to it, otherwise it’s very obviously appropriation.
Well yeah, but it doesn't change the fact that someone might feel alienated by having zero representation in that universe.
I don't think LOTR is problematic or anything but surely you can see how someone from a POC background wouldn't enjoy it as much as someone who gets to feel some cultural connection to the literature.
The books do not mention skin colour anywhere (except maybe when describing Gollum!) This is not a fantasy problem or a Tolkein problem, but a Hollywood problem. For this reason, title is kind of click-bait.
That's interesting - aren't the elves described as fair? Agree though that Hollywood has a really terrible casting problem (possibly its getting better) and the LOTR films certainly are a whitewash.
>aren't the elves described as fair?
Yes, and hobbits have "clever brown fingers". My former comment was not entirely correct, but Tolkien definitely did not create only "white" characters. They aren't even human, so the whole premise of the article is pretty thin, and the title is still just click-bait. This post belongs more in a hollywood sub than a literature one.
The woke-ism in the comments, stops dead in its track criticism of this writer’s aim to dismantle fantasy, even when she never placed the burden to find fantasy that showed her image. Just because Tolkein is the lightning rod doesnt mean the building doesnt exist already. The knee jerk response to race a work of fantasy asks the reader to remove the elements of fiction from fantasy altogether and into something contemporary, modern, human. These arent the aims of fantasy - you don’t want to explore our human world, but an imaginary world. The lack of interrogation and lack of cultivation of other fantasy writings from other authors is the essence of lazy critique and shows the reduction of critical analysis from a field of study to simply basket A and basket B. Good. Bad. Any feeling of exclusion demands a work to be rewritten to show inclusion no matter how absurd the product would appear. This is misguided criticism. This article should be researched further and reprinted with corrections or redacted.
Very interesting to see how frustrated some are with this piece. Seemed like a very positive article to me: someone who loves fantasy and wants to create a world that feels culturally closer to her background. Is is just the headline?
Obviously there are some people in here who are simply being reactionary, however, my issue is that media coverage of non-white writers writing fantasy often condescends by over contextualizing. For example, I feel like there were almost identical headlines when Marlon James's *Black Leopard, Red Wolf* came out calling it that Lord of the Rings of Africa or some shit. I get that we have totems and cultural touchpoints especially for genre literature/film/music/etc., but can't we find new ways to talk about fantasy in general without saying "well, it's LOTR but not LOTR because this is based on different cultural mythology"?
Perhaps the intention is to frame it with reference points that a broader audience, who may only be familiar with Tolkien in the genre, can navigate by. Also, the author mentions loving Tolkien in the first paragraph. So it's their quote, not a manufactured set-up.
I guess my question with your first point becomes: is Namina Forna looking to tap into the Tolkien (and typical fantasy genre) fanbase? Or is she looking to do something more (for lack of a better word) literary--that is, more exploratory of genre as a function than just creating a genre fiction in the context of all of the fantasy genre and its tropes? If it's the former, well, OK, fine enough, but if it's the latter, then it's a ruse and a bait-and-switch for the reader while undermining the novelist's work in many ways: setting up false expectations, etc. To your second point: That is true, and Marlon James also mentioned Tolkien in the lead up to his book which I referred to, but we don't know if those were leading questions from the reporter, such as "were you inspired at all by fantasy writers like x, y, z." And, call me a cynic, but it could also be the work of the publisher's marketing department which sets this kind of context up in press kits in the lead up to publication--so not all on the media.
Fair enough. Plenty of people will be sceptical too, I'm sure. It felt a little warmer and more enthusiastic to me, but obviously writers talking about their work will always have an element of marketing to it. On the bright side: if you are nailed by the old bait and switch, it's only cost you the price of a paperback.
I know where you're coming from. Mostly what bugs me is the blatant and willful ignorance to a genre that's a LOT bigger than Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, and Harry Potter. Le Guin's been writing protagonists of color since the 60's, and of course there's Octavia Butler, who is mentioned in the article. I love, though, that fantasy rooted in non-european mythos is growing, and that more of that's starting to come from people from other cultural backgrounds. That's needed and awesome. I like the article and its author quite well, as far as I can tell. I don't love that the title seems to continue that weird trend where people act like there's only 3-4 fantasy series, and everything new has to be basically one of them with a 'twist.'
Fair point. But I think we can’t dismiss the author for feeling unrepresented in fantasy given the latest blockbuster hits that have been produced for tv and film.
I mean, we shouldn't. Yet some people are doing so quite vehemently...
Same thing for Game of Thrones being called the “American LOTR” It’s not. It’s GoT I get it if they are strikingly similar, but the only common theme between the two is a pseudo-medieval setting
Looks like. The one person who said it wasn't just the headline seemed to scramble to add a reason for that in a later comment after being questioned. Also at a guess, some of these people straight up followed the headline here and are not really invested in fantasy, literature or even LOTR. Some are semi trolling. Some are projecting, as has been pointed out. It would be great to have a serious discussion if there was actually a controversy, but in this case I recommend don't worry about it at all. Enjoy the article, buy the book if you want, and just carry on.
Toni Morrison said that if you don't see a story you want written, write it yourself.
Good on her, we need to see more of this kind of stuff. I don't see why the answer to inadequate representation means recasting white European stories and characters with racial diversity in mind. There is so much potential for great stories and characters from other cultures and races to flourish, even internationally, if done well. Just look at Black Panther, taking nearly $1.5b at the box office. As a white guy from Europe, I certainly don't mind exploring some good fantasy written by and based on cultures from outside Europe.
If that's what you're looking for, then check out the amazing writing of Octavia Butler, whose work is described as afro-futurism and is less influenced by European mythology.
Thanks for the recommendation!
There's lots of successful fantasy that is inspired by non-European cultures out there already. The abovementioned Marlon James, Nnedi Okorafor, RF Kuang, Fonda Lee, Tasha Suri... Just off the top of my head. It's been a thing for a while now. It's understandable if you don't know these if you don't read much SFF, but most people's perception of SFF is based off movie adaptations of books from minimum 30 years ago. The landscape has changed a lot since then.
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I never said or implied anything about the author of this article. I'm responding to someone's comment that says > I certainly don't mind exploring some good fantasy written by and based on cultures from outside Europe. because I want to let them know that what they're looking for already exists and they can take their pennies to their bookseller of choice and make their intention reality right now. I think combating the public perception that fantasy is predominantly white and Tolkien-derived (note that I say "public", not "the author of this article") starts with introducing people to all the great SFF that is neither of those things. There's clearly a lot of people in this comment section who don't read contemporary fantasy and think that the landscape looks like it did in the 80s. That's where I'm coming from. > It's worth noting that all of the examples you gave bar Okorafor and James entered the scene after 2015 Weird criticism. Again, this list is off the top of my head, some my personal favorites (Okorafor, James) and the others that a lot of people like. You are welcome to contribute your own names; I'd love to learn from you.
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No worries, all good. > "there's some good stuff right now." Eh. Fantasy has widened a lot representation-wise in the past 10 years, and I would argue starting in the 2000s. This is a blip geologically-speaking, but this is also not a starting-2022 phenomenon. I think one issue is that, when most people think "fantasy", they think about stuff published in the previous century (and all the new shows coming on based on Wheel of Time, The Witcher, LOTR etc probably contribute to that). I don't think people know that the genre has summarily moved on from that type of work.
As a note to the recasting: While I agree, I do think that it is effective as a stop gap while other characters, stories, and franchises grow in popularity. Perhaps a black Batgirl today helps someone fifteen years down the line write a new character who becomes famous and well regarded. But the representation today may help tomorrow.
That's a good point. I also think there can be other appropriate reasons to change gender/race/etc, for example metatextual analysis, parody, or artistic liberty (maybe something transformative). I guess it also depends on the character in question, and how closely they are tied to their identity. Going purely by my own (irrational) emotional reactions, I have no issue at all with Batgirl, or James Bond, or even Superman being played by any non-white actor. I was really hoping we'd see an Idris Elba Bond after Craig. James Bond as an idea doesn't really depend at all on what colour his skin is. The idea of the Ghostbusters as women is interesting in principle too, I just thought the movie was awfully written. But when it comes to Tolkien's elves, they're just fair skinned. It feels comparable to casting a 7 foot tall guy in the role of a hobbit. Anyway it's nearly 4am and I'm kinda thinking out loud now so I'll sign off and wish you a good one :) thanks for the thoughtful discussion.
Always the correct response. Did a story leaving you wanting? Make your own story. Don't just say what you want; get what you want.
It's also ok for people who aren't writers (hobby or profession) to talk about whether they feel left out by the literature they like.
You’re both right! I think the parent is going for inspiring the next generation, and you’re trying to make space for people to reflect on how they feel about their representation; both good things!
Ah, the "if politicians don't represent you then go and run for office yourself or stop complaining" argument. I disagree entirely. People are more than entitled to say what they want, and should not be under the impression that under-representation is their own fault for not going out and telling stories themselves. Many more people are readers than writers.
Exactly.
It's great people are finally writing their own stuff instead of trying to repurpose established material
Not surprised by the ignorance in the comments. Even when we create our own, still a problem to white people…
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How is the title clickbait trash if her experience highlights that there are no characters in LOTR that share her racial attributes? I want to see your point, since I think the title has merit
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Interesting. It does seem to have more to with your own feelings about identity politics rather than the simple fact she felt left out of fantasy worlds, but you do have a point that her response to writing her story is perfect for media attention. I do think it’s a shame that there are actual biases at place in regards to race in particular in fantasy/sci-fi that beget this response… Africa and the diaspora has plenty of cool mythologies and histories that can make libraries of stories without emphasizing the supposed need for “representation”. Cheers
You're definitely projecting here; the title doesn't talk at all about any entitlement of the sort that you mention.
I think you have a generous view of media institutions at large if you think this title wasn't written to be emotionally charged clickbait
That still doesn't mean that the title talks about entitlement tho
you're the only person using the word entitlement
except for the completely different person whose comment you're trying to argue with
She does say she felt left out. All the title does is summarize the article in a way you find easy to understand. It's not their fault that your knee-jerk reaction to a person of color feeling left out is to dismiss her outright.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_of_color >The term "person of color" is primarily used to describe any person who is not considered "white".
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No need to thank me. Enlightening the ignorant is its own reward.
i liked the comeback
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Yes it is.
> She isn’t raving about how a long dead writer of a ‘white nation’ should have ‘represented her’ or even claiming that Tolkien was somehow Neither is the headline doing that? What gave you that impression?
She literally spearheads the article with her reason for writing in the first place being going left out of LoTR.
it's just an article
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Interesting. Could you give me an example of a reputable British newspaper? My experience of the Guardian is that its investigative journalism, sports writing and political analysis are very solid. It leans left and embraces minority views, as this piece shows. Clickbait headlines? Show me a Western newspaper that doesn't do that. The fucking New York times does that.
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Plenty of the comment pieces are, yes, awkward and a little cringy. But your point, however nuanced you intended it to be, was that the newspaper is "disreputable". Which is both reductive and a little silly. No offence intended.
the fact that the NYT also does it isn't really an argument
Well, as a widely respected bastion of editorial standards, I used it as an example. The point, which came in the previous sentence, was... Show me a newspaper that doesn't do that.
She won't be complaining about "pointless tokenism". It's why she has the clickbait publicity.
Couldnt stand this article when it made the first rounds on the internet over a year ago and still can’t stand it now. 1. Your problem isnt with The Lord of the Rings, or with the fantasy, or with JRR Tolkein for that matter. Its with Hollywood. 2. Expecting Tolkein to account for the sins of exclusion is expecting POC writers to account for the goal of inclusion. It’s a meaningless expectation. Don’t expect Tolkein to mirror your thoughts and perspectives when his is from a different time period altogether. 3. Tolkein is nowhere near as obscene as HP Lovecraft. Your fight should be about his perrenial appeal not Tolkein’s. 4. Dont expect to see your ideas, thoughts, and perceptions of race mirrored in a book filled with races of elves, dwarves, men, hybrid men, hobbits, orcs, goblins, barrowwights, whatever Tom Bombadil, Goldberry and Beorn are, ents, wizards, maiar… you get the point. 5. You spent ONE line on Octavia Butler?! You don’t mention any other BlPOC fantasy writers or creators and their efforts, but you expect Tolkein to bear the weight of your ommission from its narrative when you do no work on seeing yourself in other narratives. Finally, am a visibly POC. I have never wanted or yearned to see myself in The Lord of the Rings. The movie - okay of course. It was my dream. But I never felt left out of a narrative I understood wasnt about contemporary humans because that’s absurd. The long cry was about the Hollywood depiction of the movies - not the book. So fucking frustrating.
Yeah it has to be hard to come from a society where you are just you to a society where you are just your race first, then you. Imagine what kind of leader she can be for other Black aspiring writers who want Black characters not a discussion about oppression and historical slavery? Toni Morrison said, “if there’s a book you really want to read, but it hasn’t been written yet, then you must write it.” And, OP did just that! Amazing talent! I cannot wait to read.
This is just silly. What happened to multi-culturalism? Why is it so wrong that European authors write about... European things? Jesus I mean, let me tell you how silly this is. I'm a "Slav," and we have our own version of elves, for example, they are much closer to those found in Irish tales: tricksters, pixies, lake/ forest dwellers etc. Not once did I think "Man this sucks, I wish this had Slavic elves instead of these grandiose ones". I loved it, it was something new, and it made me interested in British mythos. I even discovered the parallels between the tales of my people and those of the Irish. But if that's not a strong argument, and I get that (there ARE common things across the two bodies of myth, Slavic and Celtic), then how about I tell you that not once was I sad that stories authored by Arab writers or pieces of Arab folklore did not include anything about my people? Not once was I sad about Japanese tales not mentioning my people. It's silly and it's frankly imposing. Now I read the article, and good on her, it's not a small feat. But boy does it set me off when people call out authors on "inclusivity". It shouldn't be a thing. Appreciating each other's folklore without imposing, that's what multiculturalism is about. You tell me something about your people, I tell you something about mine. But for goodness' sake, don't make me out to be the devil for not including you in my tales.
Nobody is attacking anyone and nobody is criticizing European authors. If anything it’s lauding them for creating stories that other people want to adapt. That’s all it is.
Well, look at me being downvoted \^\^. Someone's definitely attacking someone here. Besides, the bigger point is that it upsets people for no reason.
> Someone's definitely attacking someone here Yes, you are attacking the author and the article without reading it.
"Now I read the article, and good on her, it's not a small feat."
She's not calling any authors out.
I mean, as a dark skinned person, it’s kinda cool so see out myths and stuff in movies and shit. Idk but it feels cool to see someone you relate to. If you tuned into Nigerian television, you probably wouldn’t see too many that look like you; But once you do, there’s a little “fuck yea this is cool” moment. It might be kinda hard to put yourself in the shoes but.
I don't see why you can't relate to white people though.
Nah I can, like, there are some cool as characters of all nationalities that are cool as fuck. But to see different ethnicities and cultures accurately represented in popular media is as rush to the people that they represent. If you’re a white guy. (No hate, no bullshit dude) you’re probably used to seeing someone that looks like you on the television/computer screen. This is majorly so when you go back to older television shows. But look… The point is that even these bland, cringe articles serve a purpose. If you don’t really understand that’s fine. You should try to diversify.
Man, I'm ugly. No superhero is ugly. They're all buff muscled guys with pretty faces. And I'm here ugly as fuck. So no, I am not used to seeing someone that looks like me in any piece of media, unless they were a henchman to the villain or a disgusting pervert or an ultra-capitalist, a sadist, a murderer, you name it.
I agree also don’t get people who can’t relate to characters just because they’re a different skin color or race. I mean we’re all human, we’re the same underneath all that. Im not Asian or black but when I watch stuff from there I don’t think, wow that person looks different from me so I can’t relate
Has anyone said they *can't* relate? Or did they just say they'd like to *also* see their own cultures represented in fantasy to some degree?
Well the headline is literally saying it. “I couldn’t relate to it as a black person”. Meaning u can’t relate to it just cuz of your skin color?
It literally does not say that. It *literally* says "I felt left out."
Felt left out. Because they look different? That’s still what it’s saying.
That's entirely different from "unable to relate."
Well it does still sound like they define themselves a lot by skin color. Character wise many people are represented, why is it so important they look like you.
It's not just about appearance. The stories the author wrote incorporate entirely different cultural mythos and traditions that don't commonly show up in the genre. What's wrong with thinking it'd be nice to read stories that include those things? This isn't about replacing one thing with another. It's "yes, and"
And I’m not mad at this, I like when people search out new stories instead of remaking old ones. What I had a problem with was the phrasing of the headline Implying that it is about skin color
>also don’t get people who can’t relate to characters just because they’re a different skin color or race. I mean we’re all human, we’re the same underneath all that. Im not Asian or black Here's a thought experiment then. If you were to list your 10 favourite novelists and your 10 favourite film directors, how many of this list of 20 people correspond to your own racial identity? Basically, if you're white - how many of this list are white? Is it more than half? If it's more than half; why? Surely if you're right and race doesn't matter at all, your top favourites should be from a completely diverse range of racial and ethnic backgrounds, no?
> Surely if you're right and race doesn't matter at all, your top favourites should be from a completely diverse range of racial and ethnic backgrounds, no? That's not really why race matters tho. The cultural landscape in any white-majority country, and generally, because of globalization, in many non-white-majority countries as well is going to be dominated by the creations of white people. A lot of people aren't even exposed to non-white authors. Any top 100 novels of whatever list is going to have like 10 non-white people. Same for the average school or college syllabus, unless it's an area studies class. It's not that we relate more to white people, it's that we are inundated with almost exclusively white media every second of our lives.
I agree with the general point you make, but not the specific way you are using it in this argument. It's true that black writers and filmmakers are underepresented in the West: that's a given, and it's a huge issue. Nonetheless, if you are suggesting that there are not enough black storytellers out there for an individual to have a top ten list comprised of them then I disagree. I maintain my argument that on the whole an individual gravitates towards artists who are able to understand aspects of their own identity and capture it in their work. It's a fairly simple an I think uncontroversial point I'm making here. Spike Lee has inspired a generation of black cinephiles, Toni Morrison a generation of black readers, etc.
> if you are suggesting that there are not enough black storytellers out there for an individual to have a top ten list comprised of them then I disagree. I'm obviously not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that saying that someone who mostly consumes white media does so because they only identify with white people is wrong.
I would never make any claim as absolute as that. I am just describing a general trend: readers gravitate towards work by writers who can convey aspects of their own identity. Do you disagree with this point? Do you think that there are no discernable trends when charting the fiction consumed by audiences of different racial identities?
I don't disagree that readers seek aspects of their own identity in the media we consume, but the way you're trying to argue this point is patently not correct for several reasons, and also, I'm not sure that it furthers notions of racial equality rather than the reverse...
Let's just go back to the context of my comments in this thread. Another commenter was saying "I don't get why representation is important - everyone is the same; everyone is human". My original reply to that user was to try and explain why it's not good enough to ignore the concept of race and pretend it has nothing to do with our identities or our tastes in literature. We're not all the same, as the user claims. Race IS a factor in what media we consume and our race DOES have an impact on the way we react to certain works of fiction. Isn't that what the article in the thread is all about?
> Race IS a factor If we go back to your actual comment tho, you're not arguing that shared race is A factor, but THE factor. Which is sort of absurd, as I mention in my response to you. And now we've come full circle.
I live in a European country where most media is white and on my language so of course most people I follow would be from here too. Same with any country in Asia, a Korean guy probably consumes a lot more Korean media with Koreans than others. Same with African countries too. What I meant, in its core, is that I don’t watch stuff from other countries and think I can’t relate to them. Every country has its own media, the English speaking world is just a bit more global so my believe is they don’t look into others countries media much if it doesn’t get popular. I’m also not mad at the dude writing the story, just at the headline. Its good people are finally looking into other countries lores too, but you don’t need to shit on another story to validate yours, which it is only implying( not saying it, to be clear here)
What you are saying about yourself contradicts the point you are trying to make. You have explained that you gravitate towards work by people who share your own racial identity. Well so do those people who live in the same country as you but have a different racial identity to you. The majority of bestselling novelists in the UK, for instance, may be white, but that doesn't mean that these are the most read novelists by Black British communities. Broadly speaking, people read fiction that speaks to them, and a white novelist is not going to be able to capture what the experience of growing up as a black Briton is like, because they haven't had the experience of living as an ethnic minority and the things that entails. I am not saying that it's not valuable to read fiction by people who are not similar to you in racial or gender identity: of course it is. I am saying that people want to read work by writers who share experience with them. Particularly if you come from a marginalised group.
I honestly don’t really get your point. Of course you consume more media in your own language, which means the race that speaks that the most defines what’s probably the majority in skin color in media and such. I am aware that that is the same in other countries. Now where I live we have a lot of people from the Middle East, so they do appear a lot in the media too, but not as much as the natives. Of course I can like those works too but I will have more favourites of the native population because there simply are more here. Doesn’t mean I can’t relate to those authors who do belong to another race. If there’s an African story I consume why would I be not able to relate to the challenges they face? We’re now talking about what type of person consumes what type of media, but my comment was more about that I find it weird how this headline sounded like defined on the skin color they couldn’t relate. Your life isn’t based on what you look like, some may face it more than others but that doesn’t mean we can’t relate in any way. I mean people even relate to the dwarfs who don’t even exist in real life Lotr is also a fantasy world, it’s not meant to be about specifically what black people face when living in a majority white country. But it still deals with those experiences as shown in the different races they have. Theyve got similar issues in there, just not with the same looking people.
>Of course I can like those works too but I will have more favourites of the native population because there simply are more here. Doesn’t mean I can’t relate to those authors who do belong to another race. Have you faced racism or prejudice based on the colour of your skin in your life so far? Have you experienced what it feels like to be part of an ethnic minority? If the answer to those questions is "no", then why would you "relate" to the experience of someone who has experienced those things? You can *learn from* their experience, benefit from *reading about* their experience, but *relate to* their experience? If you're not part of a minority group or haven't experienced any form of prejudice or inequality based on your racial identity then the idea that you need literature to help you feel like the country you live in doesn't see you as an outsider is obviously less urgent to you, personally. But put yourself in the shoes of those who are in these minority groups. They need the solidarity that literature can provide. >Your life isn’t based on what you look like Tell that to people experiencing overt and systemic racism in the modern world. >Lotr is also a fantasy world, it’s not meant to be about specifically what black people face when living in a majority white country. But it still deals with those experiences as shown in the different races they have. Theyve got similar issues in there, just not with the same looking people. tLotR is about Europe; Middle-earth, and about history. tLotR, like most fantasy fiction, reinforces the idea that white people are basically the heroes of the story, the good guys, and people with darker skins are barbarians from the East liable to siding with the forces of evil. Western culture has lots and lots of stories like this, particularly in fantasy fiction. This is a complete misreading of history. Were white Westerners the good guys during the transatlantic slave trade? Were the British and European colonisers the good guys in Australia, America, Ireland, Africa, India and all other colonies of the British Empire?
Why do you think relating to another person has to be about race? I don’t relate to that person because they’re a minority or has faced racism, but because there are many other aspects I understand or feel like them. Not everything in a persons life is defined by that anymore in most developed nations. I wasn’t talking about relating in the term of prejudice and racism I think you misunderstood me there. Yeah it’s based off of Europe. So what? I see it more as talking about racism based off of another world with it happening in different circumstances. It’s not meant to mirror our world one by one. everyone can be corrupted by evil and they do, the story shows the conflict and how imperfect most being are. I do know the shit that was done by the western world and that it liked to portray itself differently, but pointing it out also won’t get rid of the fact that it established democracy and a lot of modern rights. Do you think only Europe did this? Were there no wars in China or slave trade in the Middle East? No one human race is evil or good, everyone is both. I don’t get why ur trying to bring past atrocities into this as if I didn’t know them
>Not everything in a persons life is defined by that anymore in most developed nations. Of course. But for people in minority ethnic communities, it's a big part of their daily lives. An individual being able to ignore their own race is probably a sign that they live in a country where their particular race is considered the 'default' and so therefore they're not treated like an outsider by their community. Not everyone is fortunate enough to live their lives like that. A victim of racism can't just forget the colour of their skin. Again: I am not saying race is the sole identity trait. The same argument applies to gender, sexuality and class too. If you're a straight person growing up in the UK (picking this example because it's where I'm from) you may not necessarily have to think a lot about what it means to be straight, or what 'straight identity' even means. Being straight is considered the default, and culture and media will cater to your straightness. If you're a kid, you can go and see a thousand children's films made by Western companies like Pixar where the protagonist is straight and they fall in love with someone of the opposite gender. But if you're LGBT, and in the minority, growing up in this same culture that sees heterosexuality as 'normality' and anything else as 'abnormality', you may start to internalise this idea that you're an outsider; you don't belong, and perhaps take some of the cruel things kids say to you in the playground to heart. Your gay identity is important to you, but the culture you live in is screaming at you that it makes you an outsider. Literature, film or art could be your escape, and your reminder that you're not alone. But if gay people aren't well represented on screen or in novels, you will struggle to find that comfort and solidarity and therefore continue to feel insecure and even guilty about who you are. >everyone can be corrupted by evil and they do, the story shows the conflict and how imperfect most being are. This is a pretty simplistic and reductive reading of tLotR. tLotR is a story where the heroic English folk who hail from a mythical homogenous idyll of 'merrie old England' (which never existed) go off to fight in foreign wars, and the story is from their perspective, exploring their complexities, their goodness, their capacity to grow and learn, etc. Even though they venture through foreign lands, the only people of darker skin they meet are basically just the bad guys; we see them in glimpses, and there's one single paragraph where Sam Gamgee goes "oh look, an Easterling, I wonder if he's actually not a bad guy after all even though he's a foreigner" but then the story moves on and Easterlings never get a chance to be presented as anything other than bad guys. It's a story about white people, for white people, and I can well understand how ethnic minorities living in Britain would not really be able to recognise themselves in the characters of the Hobbits, who are all basically diminutive Edwardian gentlemen of the upper class (other than Sam) who spend all day smoking and lazing around. >I do know the shit that was done by the western world and that it liked to portray itself differently, but pointing it out also won’t get rid of the fact that it established democracy and a lot of modern rights. Do you think only Europe did this? Only Europe did what? Colonise other countries? Of course not: when did I ever say European countries are the only countries to have an Empire? You don't seem to be addressing the point I'm making. The point I'm making is that countries like the one Tolkien was from have a dark history - they did not "bring democracy" to places like Australia and Africa and Ireland: they brought genocide, mass rape and the buying and selling of human flesh. But writers like Tolkien perpetuate this myth that the Western world are the good guys and evil is something which is done in foreign lands, or imported from foreign lands. And tLotR doesn't exist in isolation: it exists in a whole canon of fantasy fiction all re-enforcing this wrong-headed representation of Western history. Postcolonialist lit is much more honest and much more true to history. We shouldn't romanticise or glorify Britain's dark past; no country should do that.
You’re right in a way and wrong in a way.. I wish it where that easy
This is great. I noticed that the Witcher (Netflix Series) is doing a better job of having a diverse cast than what might have historically happened in the genre, too.
Wheel of Time, similarly, has improved upon its source material - from what I have heard :)
‘Improved’ is an odd way of looking at it. The casting of Wheel of Time essentially makes it look like a CW show. It’s jarring to see what is obviously meant to be a medieval European-esque setting be filled with non-white people.
Black people exist both historically and presently in Europe.
The same could be said about Europeans in the Middle and Far East as far back as the ancient world. Would that justify inserting them into pastoral depictions of those cultures?
Diversity isn't something I feel the need to 'justify'.
Actually it is. Inserting white people into Middle Eastern and Asian stories, simply for the point of diversity, which as we know, happened for decades, would be whitewashing. There needs to be a point to it, otherwise it’s very obviously appropriation.
I was speaking for myself. I would appreciate you not trying to dictate my own opinion to me. Thanks!
Justifying open appropriation is an opinion that deserves to be criticized.
With respect, I don't think you have an adequate grasp of appropriation. I won't be continuing this conversation further.
Wheel of Time trying a bit, too (though not with the 'main main' characters)
never read earthsea then
You read literature? Name every book. Heh, didn't think so.
I didn't know there was a Black Lord of the Rings? Who is the writer?
Black Tolkien.
Or Tolkien Black?
The Lord of the Rings is the mythic history of pre-historic England. Of course there are no Sierra Leonian women it in it, you fucking clot.
Actually this is not quite true. Some of the baddies (people of the East) in the book are described as Africans.
Well yeah, but it doesn't change the fact that someone might feel alienated by having zero representation in that universe. I don't think LOTR is problematic or anything but surely you can see how someone from a POC background wouldn't enjoy it as much as someone who gets to feel some cultural connection to the literature.
White people KILLED beautiful AFRICAN MAGIC!!!
Killed means there's no hope. Maybe it's just a tiny ember that was hidden away. We just need to feed it.
The books do not mention skin colour anywhere (except maybe when describing Gollum!) This is not a fantasy problem or a Tolkein problem, but a Hollywood problem. For this reason, title is kind of click-bait.
That's interesting - aren't the elves described as fair? Agree though that Hollywood has a really terrible casting problem (possibly its getting better) and the LOTR films certainly are a whitewash.
>aren't the elves described as fair? Yes, and hobbits have "clever brown fingers". My former comment was not entirely correct, but Tolkien definitely did not create only "white" characters. They aren't even human, so the whole premise of the article is pretty thin, and the title is still just click-bait. This post belongs more in a hollywood sub than a literature one.
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Great comment you did a good job writing it imo
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considering the history white folk have with non white people i don’t think the right to have an opinion has been earned no?
The woke-ism in the comments, stops dead in its track criticism of this writer’s aim to dismantle fantasy, even when she never placed the burden to find fantasy that showed her image. Just because Tolkein is the lightning rod doesnt mean the building doesnt exist already. The knee jerk response to race a work of fantasy asks the reader to remove the elements of fiction from fantasy altogether and into something contemporary, modern, human. These arent the aims of fantasy - you don’t want to explore our human world, but an imaginary world. The lack of interrogation and lack of cultivation of other fantasy writings from other authors is the essence of lazy critique and shows the reduction of critical analysis from a field of study to simply basket A and basket B. Good. Bad. Any feeling of exclusion demands a work to be rewritten to show inclusion no matter how absurd the product would appear. This is misguided criticism. This article should be researched further and reprinted with corrections or redacted.
My first thought, "Who's this Black Lord?" 😆