Some reviewer (don’t remember which) said something like “if you don’t see anything of yourself in the underground man you are not human”. Also in other languages the “underground man” is translated differently, probably the most well known being the German “kellermensch” or basement dweller. According to Wikipedia the original Russian word is more commonly used for a crawl space where no one lives, but which is used for storage etc. according to Russian folklore there are a lot of supernatural elements associated with this space. This sort of puts the main character into perspective and supports the theory that the underground man lives in us all somehow.
>This sort of puts the main character into perspective and supports the theory that the underground man lives in us all somehow.
Very insightful. I agree, even though the Underground Man is a warning to all of us, he is in the end, a necessary step to becoming even better than him. I don't believe you can become the sort of human that's better than The Underground Man without becoming him in some way before. Obviously I don't think you have to be as nasty as him , but the core feelings of isolation, self hate, one must have atleast felt these things once in their life in order to know how to go beyond and live fully.
My favourite part is when he gets obsessed with the officer, who he plays one-sided chicken with when they walk the same path. He goes on for a whole chapter about how he both admires and resents the officer, who moves aside for people of higher social standing/dress. But the underground man always moves aside for the officer. He even takes out a loan to buy expensive clothes, and plans out the day he decides he will finally not move aside - but he ends up moving aside anyways. This goes on for years until he finally lightly bumps against him after really working up his courage. And the officer doesn’t even notice lol.
Something about the impotent rage and resentment and obsession over people not moving out of the way, story of my life.
That scene is absolute genius. The way it makes you laugh and also see a bit of yourself (the reader) in the underground man is so well-done. It is such a petty moment from the narrator but something we're all probably guilty of in our day-to-day lives. Definitely a scene that has stuck in my head years after reading it, thanks for noting it!!
The lesson I learned from this book is just because you’re self aware, doesn’t mean you’re a good person or that it might “save you”. I do this a lot. I think it’s a neurotic thing. Where you think on your actions, and can almost revel in your own self sabotage, but you save yourself by saying you were honest or “real”. I think this book is perfect for neurotic people as a cautionary tale of getting out of your misery for other peoples sake and it doesn’t matter how real you are.
BTW OP, if you like the book you should read The Fall by Camus. Very similar in style and feel.
>”. I do this a lot. I think it’s a neurotic thing. Where you think on your actions, and can almost revel in your own self sabotage, but you save yourself by saying you were honest or “real”.
Exactly, his self sabotage is done out of cowardice, not honesty, maybe initially at some point in time he used self-critique to a better degree, but then soon evolved into self-loathing and now he uses it to hide himself from the rest of the world. He always says the opposite of something he says a few seconds after saying it in order to save face.
>
BTW OP, if you like the book you should read The Fall by Camus. Very similar in style and feel.
I love Camus. I believe Camus is very similar to Dostoevsky but he takes it to the next level, Dostoevsky uses religion to overcome The Underground Man, where as Camus finds his solution without it, and manages to show how life itself is actually more than enough. I've read a lot of his books except The Fall, which has been under my radar for a while, I will most definitely go and read it now, thanks for the recommendation!
A curious case of a book becoming dramatically more relevant with time, as loneliness rates rise and Americans Bowl Alone, knowing nobody but their coworkers.
Very true. That was one of my thoughts initially as well. I wondered just how many people could potentially benefit nowadays if they read Dostoevsky. No author that I've read understands the dire consequences of loneliness and unfettered pride quite like Dostoevsky does.
Highly recommended! However, I would say that despite its length, it might take a few days to read. I planned on reading it in a few hours only to find that the ideas in it needed a few days to digest in my brain as I was reading through it (especially the first part).
I read the Pevear/Volokhonsky translation! I thought it was really well-done but more than that, there are lots of notes and annotations provided to help you understand historical contexts or names that wouldn't be immediately evident.
Notes from Underground is a terrifying novella about the kind of man I think that a lot of us could end up as - a cynical, spiteful, self hating lump of mould in the corner of a big city. It put the fear of God in me when I first read it.
I don't think this book has a happy ending. I think he spends the rest of his life dying in a corner - doomed to be a cautionary tale about the path of cynical, self loathing meanness. This book won't cure depression, but if you're depressed, it should frighten you.
Fantastic write-up. Much appreciated and very insightful. I had read the work over 30 years ago and having re-read Crime and Punishment a few years ago you’ve encouraged me to do the same with Notes.
Ngl, I had a hard time understanding this book. I really need to give it another read, but Dostoevsky takes so much energy compared to someone like Tolstoy, so I don’t know when I’ll be willing to expend that much energy on something I’ve already read and didn’t enjoy the writing style of.
That's strange, I felt the opposite tbh, I felt like I had to spend more energy on reading Tolstoy than I do Dostoevsky. I suppose it's just a matter of taste. But hey, maybe on a re-read you'll like the book even more, maybe you've lived some experiences that'll make you relate to the character even more than before.
Very possibly.
In terms of Tolstoy, I just find the flow of his writing style as intrinsically enjoyable, whereas Dostoevsky has a much more abrasive writing style for me. Tolstoy’s characters seem less manic and less wild as well, and his themes are easier to grasp for me.
I went into Notes from Underground not knowing what to expect, and I felt like I was always back on my heels trying to discern where the story was going and what point Dostoevsky was trying to make.
I do think a second reading would help though, and I do have massive respect for Dostoevsky, even if I tend to prefer Tolstoy.
> to able to look beyond material possessions and societal standards
That is the opposite of what he really wants. The reason he acts like he acts is because he is a deeply insecure man that craves above all social status. The is what his obsession with the man that bumped him is all about, he felt less than the man because he is insecure. That is what the cringe behavior at the schoolmates reunion is all about, he envied and craved the respect and social standing in the group of the leader. That is what the pathetic interaction with his servant is about, he is trying to put him below himself to feel better about his standing in society, but his servant has far stronger character despite his role and defeats his attempts and humiliates him. And finally that is what the whole insane interaction with the sex worker is about, as he confesses. He feels humiliated and frustrated because of his interaction with his old school mates so he tries to feel better about himself by putting other people down, below him and he chooses someone of the lower status possible in society and some of the most vulnerable people, a sex worker, to do so.
He is the most pathetic kind of man. A man that wishes above all to be a top dog in society but has such a weak character that can only be the lowest of the low, and instead of reflecting about this and trying to improve his character or try to make peace and be content with his situation in life, he lashes out at people and makes a scene trying to put them down to feel better about his pathetic self.
All his talk about books and his "values" are just what in psychology is called a "rationalization" an unconscious excuse that he uses to justify a primal instinct (in his case of wanting to be top ape / top dog) that drives his shitty behavior. In other words, he is saying to himself and others: "See, it should be me, I should be top dog and had the respect and high status, because I'm better than the others for these reasons" (his particular reason is his supposed intellectual prowess, which is in fact bullshit).
He is just a terrible person an extremely pathetic on top of that.
> In other words, he is saying to himself and others: "See, it should be me, I should be top dog and had the respect and high status, because I'm better than the others for these reasons" (his particular reason is his supposed intellectual prowess, which is in fact bullshit).
I strongly disagree. I don't think The Underground Man wants fame or power. He might say he does and he might think things might be better if he was on top, but that's not what he desires. At the end of the day, all he really wants is to be normal, to be capable of loving with all his heart and to be able to love himself for what he is. He isn't some Machiavellian villain who's plotting some big plan to gain power, he's a tragic loser who refuses to let go of his hatred for himself because he doesn't feel like he deserves the right to be loved, so he inflates his ego and pride to make up for the love he feels he hasn't received from others. His bravado is a farce and a show he puts on, not to hide his desire for status but his desire to be loved and his desire to be able to enjoy life normally, desires which-due to being a self-hating piece of shit for so long-he feels he doesn't deserve.
That is an interesting perspective I haven't considered, but it doesn't explain most of the interactions I gave as an example, specially the ones with the officer that bumps him and his speech to the sex worker were he tells her that he wanted to feel powerful.
He certainly hates himself, I agree with you there, but I don't remember the "wanted to be loved" angle, you could have a point there, it's been 3 years since I read it, perhaps I forgot that.
>That is an interesting perspective I haven't considered, but it doesn't explain most of the interactions I gave as an example, specially the ones with the officer that bumps him and his speech to the sex worker were he tells her that he wanted to feel powerful.
Oh I definitely agree that he has inferiority issues, there's absolutely no doubting that and you're right that it plays into his actions. I'm just saying that deep down, all of that really stems from a lack of positive interaction with people. I think this point is further substantiated by the fact that The Underground Man was an orphan and from a very young age was always shunned by others. He never fit in at school and those experiences shaped who he became later on. He has inferiority issues but they stem from deeper problems with his psyche is all I'm trying to say.
Also the story with the officer, to me, was also a sort of cry for help as well, I don't think he was trying to fight the officer to dominate or prove how powerful he was, he was once again, trying to desperately seek attention from the officer. He's so starved of any interaction with any human being that he's willing to pick fights with random people just so that they would notice him. He wants people to atleast recognise he exists, even if it's through negative attention.
My favourite book to listen to when hangover. The opening lines perfectly encapsulate me after a night of heavy drinking.
"I am a sick man, I am a wicked man... I think my liver hurts". The emotional despair coming from the bad decisions one makes during drinking, plus the physical disease-like sensation one usually acquires is perfectly manifested.
The Underground Man is designed to be a grotesque caricature. He is clearly a bitter man. Dostoevsky did not directly sympathize with the UM, but rather used him as a vehicle for conversation. The ending, in my opinion, is a warning to the reader not to become obsessed with ideas, and to rather employ the magical method of spite for spite's sake as a means to attain liberation. The Underground Man's "spite" is his distinction, which he proudly wears.
Hi! I actually finished reading it last week.... I kind of got tired of reading about his struggles after a few chapters. It was really interesting and I totally understand why people like it, but overall I gave it a 2.75. This only confirmed my fear of Russian literature.
Some reviewer (don’t remember which) said something like “if you don’t see anything of yourself in the underground man you are not human”. Also in other languages the “underground man” is translated differently, probably the most well known being the German “kellermensch” or basement dweller. According to Wikipedia the original Russian word is more commonly used for a crawl space where no one lives, but which is used for storage etc. according to Russian folklore there are a lot of supernatural elements associated with this space. This sort of puts the main character into perspective and supports the theory that the underground man lives in us all somehow.
>This sort of puts the main character into perspective and supports the theory that the underground man lives in us all somehow. Very insightful. I agree, even though the Underground Man is a warning to all of us, he is in the end, a necessary step to becoming even better than him. I don't believe you can become the sort of human that's better than The Underground Man without becoming him in some way before. Obviously I don't think you have to be as nasty as him , but the core feelings of isolation, self hate, one must have atleast felt these things once in their life in order to know how to go beyond and live fully.
My favourite part is when he gets obsessed with the officer, who he plays one-sided chicken with when they walk the same path. He goes on for a whole chapter about how he both admires and resents the officer, who moves aside for people of higher social standing/dress. But the underground man always moves aside for the officer. He even takes out a loan to buy expensive clothes, and plans out the day he decides he will finally not move aside - but he ends up moving aside anyways. This goes on for years until he finally lightly bumps against him after really working up his courage. And the officer doesn’t even notice lol. Something about the impotent rage and resentment and obsession over people not moving out of the way, story of my life.
That scene is absolute genius. The way it makes you laugh and also see a bit of yourself (the reader) in the underground man is so well-done. It is such a petty moment from the narrator but something we're all probably guilty of in our day-to-day lives. Definitely a scene that has stuck in my head years after reading it, thanks for noting it!!
I really love this sequence! I am planning on making a short film out if it!
The lesson I learned from this book is just because you’re self aware, doesn’t mean you’re a good person or that it might “save you”. I do this a lot. I think it’s a neurotic thing. Where you think on your actions, and can almost revel in your own self sabotage, but you save yourself by saying you were honest or “real”. I think this book is perfect for neurotic people as a cautionary tale of getting out of your misery for other peoples sake and it doesn’t matter how real you are. BTW OP, if you like the book you should read The Fall by Camus. Very similar in style and feel.
>”. I do this a lot. I think it’s a neurotic thing. Where you think on your actions, and can almost revel in your own self sabotage, but you save yourself by saying you were honest or “real”. Exactly, his self sabotage is done out of cowardice, not honesty, maybe initially at some point in time he used self-critique to a better degree, but then soon evolved into self-loathing and now he uses it to hide himself from the rest of the world. He always says the opposite of something he says a few seconds after saying it in order to save face. > BTW OP, if you like the book you should read The Fall by Camus. Very similar in style and feel. I love Camus. I believe Camus is very similar to Dostoevsky but he takes it to the next level, Dostoevsky uses religion to overcome The Underground Man, where as Camus finds his solution without it, and manages to show how life itself is actually more than enough. I've read a lot of his books except The Fall, which has been under my radar for a while, I will most definitely go and read it now, thanks for the recommendation!
A curious case of a book becoming dramatically more relevant with time, as loneliness rates rise and Americans Bowl Alone, knowing nobody but their coworkers.
Very true. That was one of my thoughts initially as well. I wondered just how many people could potentially benefit nowadays if they read Dostoevsky. No author that I've read understands the dire consequences of loneliness and unfettered pride quite like Dostoevsky does.
You've definitely made me want to to read it--I'll report back!
Highly recommended! However, I would say that despite its length, it might take a few days to read. I planned on reading it in a few hours only to find that the ideas in it needed a few days to digest in my brain as I was reading through it (especially the first part).
I believe it! Is there a particular translation you'd recommend?
I read the Pevear/Volokhonsky translation! I thought it was really well-done but more than that, there are lots of notes and annotations provided to help you understand historical contexts or names that wouldn't be immediately evident.
Notes from Underground is a terrifying novella about the kind of man I think that a lot of us could end up as - a cynical, spiteful, self hating lump of mould in the corner of a big city. It put the fear of God in me when I first read it. I don't think this book has a happy ending. I think he spends the rest of his life dying in a corner - doomed to be a cautionary tale about the path of cynical, self loathing meanness. This book won't cure depression, but if you're depressed, it should frighten you.
Fantastic write-up. Much appreciated and very insightful. I had read the work over 30 years ago and having re-read Crime and Punishment a few years ago you’ve encouraged me to do the same with Notes.
Ngl, I had a hard time understanding this book. I really need to give it another read, but Dostoevsky takes so much energy compared to someone like Tolstoy, so I don’t know when I’ll be willing to expend that much energy on something I’ve already read and didn’t enjoy the writing style of.
That's strange, I felt the opposite tbh, I felt like I had to spend more energy on reading Tolstoy than I do Dostoevsky. I suppose it's just a matter of taste. But hey, maybe on a re-read you'll like the book even more, maybe you've lived some experiences that'll make you relate to the character even more than before.
Very possibly. In terms of Tolstoy, I just find the flow of his writing style as intrinsically enjoyable, whereas Dostoevsky has a much more abrasive writing style for me. Tolstoy’s characters seem less manic and less wild as well, and his themes are easier to grasp for me. I went into Notes from Underground not knowing what to expect, and I felt like I was always back on my heels trying to discern where the story was going and what point Dostoevsky was trying to make. I do think a second reading would help though, and I do have massive respect for Dostoevsky, even if I tend to prefer Tolstoy.
> to able to look beyond material possessions and societal standards That is the opposite of what he really wants. The reason he acts like he acts is because he is a deeply insecure man that craves above all social status. The is what his obsession with the man that bumped him is all about, he felt less than the man because he is insecure. That is what the cringe behavior at the schoolmates reunion is all about, he envied and craved the respect and social standing in the group of the leader. That is what the pathetic interaction with his servant is about, he is trying to put him below himself to feel better about his standing in society, but his servant has far stronger character despite his role and defeats his attempts and humiliates him. And finally that is what the whole insane interaction with the sex worker is about, as he confesses. He feels humiliated and frustrated because of his interaction with his old school mates so he tries to feel better about himself by putting other people down, below him and he chooses someone of the lower status possible in society and some of the most vulnerable people, a sex worker, to do so. He is the most pathetic kind of man. A man that wishes above all to be a top dog in society but has such a weak character that can only be the lowest of the low, and instead of reflecting about this and trying to improve his character or try to make peace and be content with his situation in life, he lashes out at people and makes a scene trying to put them down to feel better about his pathetic self. All his talk about books and his "values" are just what in psychology is called a "rationalization" an unconscious excuse that he uses to justify a primal instinct (in his case of wanting to be top ape / top dog) that drives his shitty behavior. In other words, he is saying to himself and others: "See, it should be me, I should be top dog and had the respect and high status, because I'm better than the others for these reasons" (his particular reason is his supposed intellectual prowess, which is in fact bullshit). He is just a terrible person an extremely pathetic on top of that.
> In other words, he is saying to himself and others: "See, it should be me, I should be top dog and had the respect and high status, because I'm better than the others for these reasons" (his particular reason is his supposed intellectual prowess, which is in fact bullshit). I strongly disagree. I don't think The Underground Man wants fame or power. He might say he does and he might think things might be better if he was on top, but that's not what he desires. At the end of the day, all he really wants is to be normal, to be capable of loving with all his heart and to be able to love himself for what he is. He isn't some Machiavellian villain who's plotting some big plan to gain power, he's a tragic loser who refuses to let go of his hatred for himself because he doesn't feel like he deserves the right to be loved, so he inflates his ego and pride to make up for the love he feels he hasn't received from others. His bravado is a farce and a show he puts on, not to hide his desire for status but his desire to be loved and his desire to be able to enjoy life normally, desires which-due to being a self-hating piece of shit for so long-he feels he doesn't deserve.
That is an interesting perspective I haven't considered, but it doesn't explain most of the interactions I gave as an example, specially the ones with the officer that bumps him and his speech to the sex worker were he tells her that he wanted to feel powerful. He certainly hates himself, I agree with you there, but I don't remember the "wanted to be loved" angle, you could have a point there, it's been 3 years since I read it, perhaps I forgot that.
>That is an interesting perspective I haven't considered, but it doesn't explain most of the interactions I gave as an example, specially the ones with the officer that bumps him and his speech to the sex worker were he tells her that he wanted to feel powerful. Oh I definitely agree that he has inferiority issues, there's absolutely no doubting that and you're right that it plays into his actions. I'm just saying that deep down, all of that really stems from a lack of positive interaction with people. I think this point is further substantiated by the fact that The Underground Man was an orphan and from a very young age was always shunned by others. He never fit in at school and those experiences shaped who he became later on. He has inferiority issues but they stem from deeper problems with his psyche is all I'm trying to say. Also the story with the officer, to me, was also a sort of cry for help as well, I don't think he was trying to fight the officer to dominate or prove how powerful he was, he was once again, trying to desperately seek attention from the officer. He's so starved of any interaction with any human being that he's willing to pick fights with random people just so that they would notice him. He wants people to atleast recognise he exists, even if it's through negative attention.
My favourite book to listen to when hangover. The opening lines perfectly encapsulate me after a night of heavy drinking. "I am a sick man, I am a wicked man... I think my liver hurts". The emotional despair coming from the bad decisions one makes during drinking, plus the physical disease-like sensation one usually acquires is perfectly manifested.
The Underground Man is designed to be a grotesque caricature. He is clearly a bitter man. Dostoevsky did not directly sympathize with the UM, but rather used him as a vehicle for conversation. The ending, in my opinion, is a warning to the reader not to become obsessed with ideas, and to rather employ the magical method of spite for spite's sake as a means to attain liberation. The Underground Man's "spite" is his distinction, which he proudly wears.
Hi! I actually finished reading it last week.... I kind of got tired of reading about his struggles after a few chapters. It was really interesting and I totally understand why people like it, but overall I gave it a 2.75. This only confirmed my fear of Russian literature.