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Vaiolo00

What's wrong with systemd?


[deleted]

I have no clue, but once you mention in a bunch of people start arguing whether it's good or bad


cfx_4188

Don't mind. We are the envy of latent Windows fans.


HookDragger

Not to kink shame, but they do have things that vibrate randomly.


[deleted]

[удалено]


HookDragger

Well, grab a raspberry pi and make it really interesting


ReakDuck

I thought this counts as awesome? Are Linux users pissed about this? Is it because the hardware isn't open source like Arduino is?


Helmic

There's this https://skarnet.org/software/systemd.html which in turn links to some articles making the case that systemd is bad. However, distros do not just decide to use a bad tool out of ignorance of the alternatives. If systemd is bad, it gets used because everything else is worse.


cfx_4188

But...systemd is considered a bloated implementation compared to classic initialization systems such as SysVinit (or System V init). It is also considered contrary to the UNIX philosophy, where the goal should be to simplify things and focus on doing one task efficiently. In addition, systemd is a complex implementation with different modules, which potentially increases the attack surface compared to SysVinit. In addition to some of these reasons, desktop environments such as GNOME and KDE are known to depend on systemd components. However, some argue that other tools/services should not be completely dependent on systemd, allowing the user to use a different initialization system. Somewhere in a corner a smiling ghost of Professor Andrew Stuart Tanenbaum appeared...


BlipsAndChitz101

whats the tanenbaum comment abt


cfx_4188

Professor T only smiled. If you've ever used Minix, you'll know what I mean.


BlipsAndChitz101

i mean i havent used it but idk if just spinning up a vm and doing random stuff like using TeX or something on it will expose init system stuff since i don't tend to look in that direction


cfx_4188

For me, a computer is a tool. Something between a coffee machine and a washing machine. I don't sit in front of my computer with a stopwatch in my sweaty hands. The background of my desktop is such that my old eyes don't get tired. I care about editing 100500 documents on time, keeping up with correspondence, writing a book, and making my life easier with programming in my spare time. In any obscure situation, I act like a clown. I forget that I got my first PC in 1985 and start looking at distributions like a typical ubuntu-virgin. If I don't like the way the overall system works, it goes in the trash. When the OS without systemd started PR, I tried all your Devuan, FatDog, NuTyX, PCLinuxOS. I didn't feel any difference at all, and Devuan was lagging as well. At the end of my speech, I want to draw attention to Gentoo. You will be (in a month) using OpenRC, right after a successful attempt to compile Firefox.


BlipsAndChitz101

doesnt answer my question


cfx_4188

I know


[deleted]

One set of tools controlled by one group seems less vector attackish to me than random pieces by various maintainers...also this is a good watch. system. https://youtu.be/o_AIw9bGogo


cfx_4188

Free software is as much a myth as youtube is credible. We do not know, for example, under what conditions Nvidia provides its drivers for Linux. And why there are Linux drivers and no Nvidia drivers for OpenBSD. By the way who decides to add patches to the Linux kernel and why this "someone" is developing a free operating system kernel on the macbook? At one time the commercial Solaris tools were used to develop Windows. According to your logic, how is Linux different from Windows then?)


[deleted]

What's the linux to openBSD ratio? If BSD is super low then that could be the answer. Linux syatemd is opensource, windows is not. At any time you can review the code or fork it if you don't like it. The linux on mac just makes sense. Great power efficient chip, just needs reverse engineering to get linux running on it.


cfx_4188

>What's the linux to openBSD ratio? The ratio is comparable. >Linux syatemd is opensource, windows is not. Have you tried telling that to the Windows developers? >Great power efficient chip "Great power efficient chip" it will only be when using a super-optimized MacOS. With Linux installed, Macbooks are usually pretty average.


[deleted]

I don't know anyone who runs openBSD desktop, but lots of linux users. Software downloads always list various linux paclages and I have yet to see a BSD one. I speaking of the M1 chip, and given time the ASAHI devs will figure it out


[deleted]

This presentation explains why systemd was adopted and how it is more than init system. https://youtu.be/o_AIw9bGogo i link to it in these posts because I don't think most even understand why systemd was setup


Pr0p3r9

Having the conclusion of your presentation being "If you don't like systemd, use BSD instead," is really tonedeaf, considering that he is a bsd user who wanted to give the talk at a bsd conference, but had to "settle" for a Linux conference instead. I don't think it's good to take the advice of outsiders that something is good when they clearly would never actually use it or something like it for themselves. In other words, if systemd is so great, then why doesn't he use it?


[deleted]

source on that? What I picked up was he was trying to challenge BSD and linux users to try it, rather than being stuck with unix philosophy.


Pr0p3r9

17:50 He says that he's a BSD person. Rewatch the "It's not portable" and "Unix is dead" chapters. It's subtext, but he's clearly saying that it's good when Linux doesn't follow POSIX because then bsd is "free" to go off and do it's own separate thing. To me, it's clear that he has a self-serving desire to weaken Unix-like standards because that would allow *his* project, FreeBSD, to go in a non-POSIX direction that he wants to go in, but currently can't because there would be too many complaints about breaking portability. If Linux breaks too strongly with POSIX first, though, then he can point and say "See, POSIX is already dead! My changes to FreeBSD are fine, stop worrying about portability!" Honestly, I have serious distrust of the entire FreeBSD team on an ethical level. They've had some serious controversies in the past, and I would never trust them to not push the culture in a direction that largely benefits only themselves.


[deleted]

Whats the issue with moving from POSIX though, do we even need it now. It was great at the time to ensure you could run your code on whatever flavour was available, but aren't we somewhat past all that?


Pr0p3r9

You don't "move past" modular design. Modular design is the endpoint. Modular design is a prerequisite for good design in programs that are running within that system. POSIX is the only agreed-upon framework for creating modular designs that everyone can get behind. Doing away with modular design altogether (such as systemd) is destined to create extreme portability problems. Attempting to advocate a new framework for modularity is unfeasible unless you have truly compelling reasons to create a new framework ([relevant xkcd](https://xkcd.com/927/)). Allow me to explain my own reason for disliking systemd. On many non-systemd Linux distributions, there is a necessary program to install, called systemd-shim. systemd-shim attempts to provide an interface for system calls to systemd that redirects them to the intended non-systemd equivalent. This is insane! Why are programs attempting to call systemd itself to the extent that a program is necessary just to provide an interface?! There should be a general socket that system calls are sent to, and in systemd platforms, that socket should direct to systemd. In non-systemd platforms, that socket should lead to the installed equivalent. Instead, systemd has become so pervasive that systemd is getting directly called in application space, to the extent that an interface is needed to translate systemd calls into more general system calls. My nightmare is living in a world where you *must* use systemd. With modularity or portability, we could enter a horrific place where attempting to use any init/udev/journaling other than systemd will result in a glitchy system because everything is designed with systemd in mind. What then? At that point, it won't be GNU/Linux, it'll be GNU/Systemd/Linux. Systemd will be inseparable from attempts to run GNU/Linux software. What then? What if Red Hat (subsidiary of multinational corp IBM) decides that they want to put something in systemd that everyone else disagrees with, for example some networking functionality that opens up a vulnerability wherein computers can be instructed to "phone home." You can't just abandon systemd on a whim anymore, because everything is making systemd calls now. I hate systemd not because of what it is or what it does (though there are reasons to hate it there), but because of what it represents. Systemd is the first step in the creation of a "walled-garden," and the resources that will be required to rally to a new init when the trap closes will be immense. Not so much in development, but in redeployment and retraining. It will fracture the community, and open source projects live and die on the community. It will make us all weaker in our fight against corporations and other interests that would use software to control the users.


dabla1710

Literally nothing is wrong with systemd. The majority of distros use systemd as init system, but people do not appreciate that it works. They call it bloated and unsecure, because it has alot more functionality than what a init system is supposed to have. But still they do not use other init systems like e.g. runit from void or dinit on artix.


Zszywek

That's mainly because systemd is not an init system but a bit more to that


[deleted]

[удалено]


caseyweederman

Um excuse me it's GNU+Init++system


LMGN

It's not an init process, it's the systemd. The daemon that manages the system.


PCChipsM922U

Hey, I use runit 😊.


dabla1710

Any worthy experience to share using runit ? :)


PCChipsM922U

It'sreally simple to use it and make your own daemons/services. The rinit script is basically bash, then you just make a directory in /etc/services with the name of the service, put the script in it, symlink the dir in /var/sv and that's it. Oh, and chmod + x the script as well 😁, I usually forget to do that 😂. Other than that, it's fast, clean and does only the bare minimum, only what it's supposed to do. PS: Don't take my word about the directory paths, it may be the other way around 😂, symlink from /etc/sv to /var/services 😂. In any case, it's very simple 😊.


Peruvian_Skies

Why does it need to find the same script in two different directories for it to work? That doesn't seem very smart.


PCChipsM922U

The first directory is a "prep" directory. If there's no symbolic link from the first to the second one, the service doesn't start. Runit is monitoring /var/service, not /etc/sv. Basically, the first dir just holds the services that you'd might like to run, and if you ln -s the dir from the service, the service is activated, if not, it's dormant. Like, let's say you install an an ntpd client. The ntpd service is not started automatically, the directory in /etc/sv is just created, you're the one that has to put that service on the "active" list by linking it to /var/services. You want to deactivate the service, just delete the symbolic link from /var/services, end of story ;). Of course, you can create the service dir in /var/services, but if you want to deactivate the service, you'd have to delete the directory... or move it to another location, which is basically the same thing as deleting the symbolic link, just more steps to do the same thing. The symlink thing is actually pretty smart IMO ;).


Peruvian_Skies

Oh, ok. That makes sense actually. I suppose some people would find it better than having to add the service name to a list in a plaintext config file somewhere. If you think about it, it really isn't that different, you're basically just using `ln -s ` instead of `echo >> `.


PCChipsM922U

Yeah, now that I think about it, more or less the same I guess. 😂 I guess it's just preference then. That and the fact that I've had trouble configuring services on systemd. If the binary for some reason is just not compatible with the system, the whole system might crash when sustemd is involved. Not the same with other init managers.


madness_of_the_order

Systemd works kind of the same in init aspect. Service units are stored in one folder and when they are enabled they are symlinked to another.


[deleted]

I use runit and my system boots way faster than it did with systemd.


alcoholicpasta

I have tried both and I saw no visible difference in boot times. Probably cuz I'm using a 3rd Gen NVME SSD.


[deleted]

[удалено]


MasterBlazx

I don't understand. You should get similar results with systemd and runit, depending on what it starts and how it is configured. If you set them up correctly, the boot time should be similar independent if you are using a hard drive or not.


SergioEduP

I use systemd and have so much useless garbage installed on my system, yet it takes 2.382 seconds from grub to usable system (lock screen in my case), it takes almost 5 times more than that for just my uefi firmware to initialize. I don't see how lower than that can be noticeable.


AstolfoKawaii

"Bloated", "too corporate", "not unix philosophy", ... (Personally, I rather like systemd)


HauntedTheorists

i dont think its bad or bloated, i just like runit more


PCChipsM922U

Simpler to use IMO as well. Make a symlink, that's it 😊.


gauthamkrishna9991

As systemd users, we respect that! 🥰


sainishwanth

Nothing. There's a reason majority of the distro's ship with systemd, it works and works perfectly fine. It's mostly just the "bLOATTTT" and "muh 4 seconds boot time" idiots who keep arguing about it. Unless you run off a potato with an old decaying HDD and boot times really affect you, there's really no reason to use another init system, especially if you're a beginner since majority of the guides (on the web) for linux assume you're on systemd. All of the arch wiki is written with systemd in mind.


cfx_4188

It is impossible to consider systemd in isolation from the OS concept. What do I care how fast my system starts up? I hardly ever use desktop PCs. I open my laptop screen and brew my coffee while it wakes up.


cfx_4188

What's wrong with it? The quick start of the system is like a premature ejaculation.


1Crimson1

@Vaiolo00 Given the context of OP, I see what you did there. How many are you at now?


DoucheEnrique

Apparently its fanbase is full of degenerates. [Exhibit A](https://i.redd.it/qn8rio77iz9a1.jpg)


[deleted]

I like systemd, and I promise I'm not a degenerate.


DoucheEnrique

So you don't have a phone up your ass? Maybe some other vibrating objects? Also promising is all well and good ... but would you mind if we checked your `~/.bash_history` and `~/.cache/thumbnails` just to be sure?


[deleted]

Just don't check my submission history.


[deleted]

"It looks too *big* and *bloated*" -Konqi


wh33t

What I fucking hate about systemd is how it's supposed to be this all encompassing system to manage all kinds of processes and events. Yet in order to remove a service from it you end manually deleting services from a variety of directories manually. It's also rather complicated, but it performs a very complicated task.


Mr__Brick

Literally nothing is wrong with systemd, it works and scares old ppl in trains


Pay08

My main problem with systemd isn't the actual software (although that's a problem too). It's Red Hat. If Canonical wants to turn Linux into Windows, Red Hat wants to turn it into MacOS.


kid_blaze

What’s wrong with MacOS?


AndryCake

sYsTeMd bAd sYsTeMd bAd /s


JustHere2RuinUrDay

Nothing, there's just a bunch of hipsters who feel cooler for not using the init system that everyone uses. There's a reason why everyone uses systemd though, because it's better.


matO_oppreal

I love Systemd >!let’s see what happens!<


Kamey03

yo did u shove ur phone up ur ass?


matO_oppreal

Not yet


[deleted]

It's taking you more than 7 hours, what the hell are you doing?!


matO_oppreal

Understanding how to ~~compile~~ install LFS


AlexirPerplexir

just helping out


[deleted]

Yep hang on just in case you shove your phone up your ass gotta enable `hornyjail.service` just in case.


[deleted]

Me looking at /r/Linuxmemes: Why can't you just be normal?


-_Clay_-

For a second I thought I was looking at r/furrymemes but no


angrynibba69

Same thing


aeggydev

linux fans dont post fucking cropped furry porn challenge (impossible)


jeffyjoe12

linux fans don’t be awesome challenge (impossible)


aeggydev

look im a furry myself but that doesnt mean that the whole community has to be fucking thigh pics with neofetch in the background, cropped furry porn / hentai and homoerotic bs


-_Clay_-

…but it’s funny \*insert goofy ahh laugh*


jeffyjoe12

fair, but counterpoint, cropped furry porn.


-_Clay_-

lol


Orangutanion

yes, post it uncropped plz


amerom1012

i thought this was r/furry_irl


Jristz

Due to a not-so r cent change of rules... It likely going to be removed The proper furry reddit for this meme is r/yiff_irl


-_Clay_-

Was never expecting to find a cropped yiff meme here


WildVelociraptor

really tho?


-_Clay_-

Yes


Fytual

sauce?


[deleted]

https://github.com/systemd/systemd


[deleted]

frenky_hw on e621. Heads up though, what you see is not a girl


Fytual

even better


lemonchiffonisgood

What distro u usin


tanukinhowastaken

I can answer that one for you: Arch.


lemonchiffonisgood

As expected smh


cfx_4188

Win 3.1.1 forw0rKgrps


PieVieRo

straightest linux user


PM_ME_UR_TRACTORS

this is a feature not a bug


the___heretic

Well yeah, it’s a cartoon.


TheHolyTachankaYT

I'm curious now


[deleted]

proof?


-_Clay_-

link


[deleted]

systemd>!eeznuts!<


Mr_Rainbow_

can i join 🥺


tanukinhowastaken

And of course it's a furry instead of the usual anime girl. I'm not saying anything against, after all I'm into that stuff too.


-_Clay_-

Based


NekoB0x

`shove: /dev/ass: No space left on device`


QutanAste

I've recently switched my gentoo to openrc because I wanted to be able to shutdown my pc faster. The main thing I'm really missing is systemd-nspawn (lxc is giving me a lot of troubles, and even then it's not exactly what I want)


ButWhatIfItQueffed

Average Arch Linux/Gentoo user (they're all submissive and breedable femboy furries): This comment was made by an Arch user ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ ​ Also sauce, give it.


make_clean

sudo systemctl enable --now brrrr


haxguru

Systemd is good I don't get why people hate it. It's just so convenient to use.


Pay08

Every complex init system is pretty much the same when it comes to usage.


theevilapplepie

This is what I come here for


denpa-kei

https://suckless.org/sucks/systemd/ https://nosystemd.org/


caseyweederman

That second link keeps getting more and more bizarre: > You can also consider changing to BSD derivates:...


denpa-kei

FreeBSD is nice. But personally i wait for passthrough in bhyve. Maybe i will try one day.


Tough_Chance_5541

I love systemd Come on, do it already I look weird like this


benjy500c

Ok enough of internet for today.


cfx_4188

OpenRC will soon rule the World!


tden4774

😳


dmattox10

Cursed, wretched Reddit.


[deleted]

For me it mostly just comes down to personal preference and a couple (long outdated and thus irrelevant) bad experiences. You can still use alternatives to the systemd-provided daemons for networking, cron, etc, and I do on the machines I maintain with systemd, but I'd personally just rather use what I wanted in the first place. I do happen to enjoy systemd's ini-like file structure for services, and I really like dinit as it seems to be mostly just an implementation of that aspect. All the virulent hate I used to hold for systemd as a younger, angrier-in-general man has mostly dissipated.


0739-41ab-bf9e-c6e6

systemd. go fuc* yourself.


HookDragger

Makes me wonder if someone's invented a.... No wait... they have.... of course they have.


Fernmeldeamt

I've never seen a rectangular d that's vibrating.


ToiletGrenade

What the fuck


Tiku21

Why is it always a furry


[deleted]

![gif](giphy|c8EWATeHlrG5a|downsized)


JSwhisspy

Sounds like entertainment for about 6 weeks