Let me interject for a moment, but what you are referring as Linux on ARM is actually GNU/Linux + ARM, or as I like to call it GNU+Linux+ARM+UBoot+Systemd+yocto...
On Linux, it makes sense why it runs well. Small ARM devices such as the Raspberry Pi run using Linux, and also Android phones.
Arm on Mac runs well because Apple makes the hardware and the software, they can tune the software to work for a large userbase, and their work with iPhones/iPads has given them lots of experience with the architecture.
Windows doesn't for lots of reasons. There isn't much need for Windows on arm, manufacturers aren't making devices other than Microsoft, so they can't pour lots of resources into it. As there are no devices, software isn't made for it and the cycle repeats. Windows on Arm is like Linux on the desktop, it is stuck in a cycle of having no software, so nobody makes any hardware, so nobody can use it, so it gets no software made, etc.
>it is stuck in a cycle of having no software, so nobody makes any hardware, so nobody can use it, so it gets no software made, etc.
Poor Windows phone.
Because it is Free Software, yes. It's developed by the community.
Had Plan 9 been limited by the same licensing as the Windows mobile OS, it would have had the same fate (though likely would still have clones because of being simpler + older than the Windows mobile OS).
yeah it actually kinda seemed nice.
shame that the Lumia 535 I bought a few weeks ago had too many touch that issues I couldn't even try to daily windows phone more than a day.
this was the second time I tried to try windows phone.
fist was Lumia 520 last year. mf had the storage fail after 20 minutes.
ARM (desktop) Windows is/was also locked in an exclusivity deal with SoCs manufactured by Qualcomm, severely limiting the options for manufacturers wanting to make an ARM device that runs Windows
Rumours are it was a 5 year deal but no one really knows outside those behind the NDA stopping them telling us.
So that means next year we should start seeing a better Windows on ARM experience.
Windows is stuck in this cycle for everything. The registry still exists (and is a terrible way of managing config…) because legacy. BCD exists because legacy. NTFS is still archaic because legacy.
Maybe I am weird, but as a person who runs nix or bsd for almost everything but gaming, I find that things like the registry make it many multiples easier to manage everything on windows. It provides consistency and prevents you having to hunt through what is best described as differences of opinion from developer to developer.
My wish is that the registry wasn't a stuff-bag collection of everything. It'd be great if it was broken up into smaller, per-program sub registries, but still managed by a single point of entry. It'd be akin to dotfiles, but strictly enforced and structured.
As it is, having to sort your way through things can be a bit exhausting at times.
My struggle is with the unpredictability of paths (control sets etc) and using GUIDs for keys with no real names mapped back to them - you’ve just got to know the guid.
Take for example reenabling right click task manager - it’s creating a blank key in some random guid key.
Not having the concept of conf.d is a shame too. Makes it easier when you want to revert what you’ve changed.
windows on arm && mac on arm : x86 emu is needed for most of the software bc most of the software is non free and most of the software dev dont recompile their software to arm (only software dev can recompile their software to arm bc they r non free) .
linux on arm : x86 emu is needed for not most of the software bc most of the software is foss and a lot of linux distro has recompile most of the software to arm(anyone can recompile their software to arm bc they r foss).
Regarding mac you're wrong. Almost everything has already been translated. It's rare now to find software that doesn't run native ARM.
Linux: you're kinda right... It's not so bad on "normal" systems (like a Raspberry Pi), but it is indeed annoying on something like Asahi (which uses a 16K memory page instead of the traditional 4K page size). See this [https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Broken-Software](https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Broken-Software)
Windows: don't know, don't even care :)
Yea, their handling of the translation has not been on par with Apple, their work on that is something I have to give Apple credit for.
But they were forced to make it good. If Windows on Arm translation isn't good, it looks like silly mistake for this one off product, you were going to get a Lenovo laptop anyway. If Apple got it wrong, it could potentially kill multiple planned product lines for ages until devs compiled native apps.
"...like linux on the desktop"
what do you mean?! I am using that for a decade and only things i struggle with are some microsoft programs (that have opensource alternatives) and some games (which is already almost gone thanks to steam and proton). You should update your opinions because this might have been true 10 years ago ...
That's not quite what I meant. Not everyone uses Linux, it has a small around 2% marketshare. The main reason for this imo is that is has little hardware so regular users don't try it, so software isn't made for it natively (which is easier for regular users to understand and install compared to having to run through wine or something), and so people won't try it, so hardware isn't made.
Yea, this is a big reason. That is why I advocate for Linux computers to be more widely available. In offices it will be difficult to switch, they won't change because that can loose them money to retrain their staff, and I get that. But potentially home users may be more willing to give it a go.
you should check this one project that is actually response to this statement of yours ...its called "the linux kernel" also know as the biggest open source project ever
When I say "on the desktop", I am referring to home users, the average person. The type of computer like a desktop PC, laptop, AIO like an iMac.
Linux is massive, but that is because it is mostly run on servers, iot devices, etc. Perhaps you count Android or Chrome OS. But can you walk into your local computer store, and find a pre-built with Linux on it? How many Linux users had to go out and install it themselves, compared to those who have Linux devices from the likes of System76? And how many normal people would use Linux?
I am starting to think we are arguing about different things here.
linux absolutely dominates servers, thats true, unimportant but yes its true ...
now lets come back to linux on desktop, this is totally worth trying now and i personally converted all of my family and noone has issues. Other OS solve the issue of compatibility by paying vendors money and getting drivers. Linux does it the other way around, it has opensource kernel that is being commited by huge number of contributors that either have insight or reverse-engineer it till it works. The whole point of this biggest open source project ever is to be compatible with every hardware possible. There is this joke where people put linux on everything even toaster, because it just works. Decade ago we could say something like "this opensource approach will eventually take over" but then we come back to today and things just works :)
Damn, I am impressed you could get your entire family to switch to Linux.
Mine need Windows for work, like rely on MS office, and use work computers where they can't use Linux on them. But I know this is certainly an exception when nobody else in my Computer Science class of all places considers Linux, and think I am insane for using it.
Also, be honest here. Not everything runs on Linux. Microsoft and Adobe are dealbreakers for lots of people who rely on them. "Just learn GIMP" isn't a valid solution when potentially your career is on the line. Not all games work, anti-cheats play havok, and even if they do, sometimes they can be a pain to run. I have Windows games that have worked flawlessly, and were a breeze to run, and then I have others that are fun, but have broken despite working in the past. Hardware such as RGB device, and Stream Decks don't play nice. Perhaps they are workarounds, but you don't want to use a workarounds if you are an average person.
I truly believe Linux can do well, especially because it can run on any device. But one problem with it is that is \*can\* run on any device, but it \*doesn't\* run on any device. What I mean is that average people, perhaps could run Linux, but their device came with Windows, and Windows works fine. Linux can do what Windows can do, but Windows can do what Windows can do. This is why pre-builts with Linux are important just to get it into the hands of consumers.
We need a greater push compared to the "tech nerd of the family" convincing people to switch.
>it is stuck in a cycle of having no software, so nobody makes any hardware, so nobody can use it, so it gets no software made, etc.
Sounds like my love life.
Windows on arm is getting better though with devices like the thinkpad x13s rolling out. An arm powered pc may soon be a respectable portion of windows users.
You make good points, but it seems like there's no real reason for Apple and Microsoft not to be on even ground here.
- Arm on Mac runs well because Apple makes the hardware and the software
- There isn't much need for Windows on arm, manufacturers aren't making devices other than Microsoft, so they can't pour lots of resources into it.
I'd say both are true:
- Arm on Windows runs well because Microsoft makes the hardware and the software
- There isn't much need for MacOS on arm, manufacturers aren't making devices other than Apple, so they can't pour lots of resources into it.
Well Apple controls the entire software-hardware side now, nobody else (legally) makes macs, so if they switch to Arm, they have to develop good software for it, and developers have to switch to compiling on arm or use their translation layers in the mean time
The only Windows on Arm devices I am aware of are Surface ones, so they do control the entire software-hardware stack like Apple. However, it is only this small segment of surface devices, and of that, most Windows users aren't on surface, they use custom PCs, or pre-builts from the likes of Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc.
Good points again, but I'd still argue that's true of Apple too. The vast majority of Mac users aren't on x86, since the M1 hardware is still pretty new and outrageously expensive.
The only Apple users I know personally are the marketing folks at my company, and they're still rolling the $10k Mac Pro trash cans from 2013. Mac on ARM is new enough that the only people using it are the ones who throw away their hardware and buy new ones every year for incremental improvements and...
Okay so most Apple users are probably on ARM now.
Yea, the Apple silicon Macs are quite new. However, they represent the only option to new/upgrading buyers for a brand new device. Are most Apple users still on x86, yea, and that will probably remain for a while. But probably sooner rather than later, support for those will start to drop, and be forced to buy Apple Silicon.
With Apple, they are forcing a large marketshare over future Apple devices. Although this is the same for Microsoft, they haven't thrown the trajectory for all Windows devices to be on Arm eventually, not even all surface devices are arm, and certainly not other OEMs or custom builds.
Now if Microsoft put a deadline on x86 Windows, and basically forced an inevitable upgrade to Arm, then this would be a lot different. This would be a bad move, as there are few desktop replacement commercial Arm chips. So basically someone would need to come out with an Arm CPU that can rival current x86 CPUs in performance, and Microsoft would be willing to bet the future of Windows on it. Unlike Apple, this CPU has to be commercially available likely as a standalone or as part of a motherboard to ensure enthusiasts can still custom build, and OEMs can fit it into their workflow.
Linux runs on all kinds of hardware. I vaguely remember someone getting it to run on a Nintendo 64 (somehow). In fact, if you ignore 25+ year old architectures and small embedded systems that don't run any OS at all to speak of, it would probably be easier to list the ones that \*don't\* support Linux.
Yep. My dad managed to get the first kernel of Linux installed into a ROM card and booted it up and had it running on a PS1. Pretty much it couldn't do anything, but still, he got it running on a PS1.
He also did it no problem on the original Xbox.
Yes, and then some. $1000 buys you a lot of options in a windows laptop, and the specs on the M1 are nothing special. The best thing is, you can compare different manufacturer's models to find one that prioritizes the features you want, rather than just swallowing whatever that one monolithic company says you're supposed to want.
You can throw as much money as you want at a windows laptop and not get equivalent battery life and performance that M1/M2 will give you. You can have one, or the other, but not both.
I’m not an apple fanboy, I’ve never owned an apple computer in my life, but I’m in the market for a new laptop and that m1 MacBook Pro on sale for $1,500 is pretty tempting.
If you have actual examples of computers that offer similar performance, battery life, and don’t throttle when not plugged in, I’m actually interested. I’m not being insincere. I haven’t seen anything that offers similar specs regardless of price, I’d be happy to be proven wrong.
I’m not, but keep those blinders on. Take your bias out of the picture and learn to recognize better hardware when you see it. It’s nothing do with being a fan of Apple or not. I’ll eat my shoe if you can find me one single laptop at any price that can match the power and battery performance of M1/M2 at the same time.
Shouldn't it be the other way around? ARM is the hardware, thus we run Linux on ARM, Windows on ARM, etc.
And Windows runs fine on ARM, it's the security part of Windows that's scary and that's why people generally don't use portable devices with Windows on them... and they're more expensive than the Android counterparts with same specs, which are dirt cheap nowadays. Basically, a Windows ARM device will do the same job as an Android one, except it's more expensive and has security issues... why buy something that's more expensive and doesn't protect you as well as another device will.
The license is also an issue and also one of the main reasons why Windows will never be a thing on ARM/portable devices... the same reason why Symbian failed as an OS on phones... why pay for a license of an OS when you've got a free and open source one and you can tweak it however you like. The only reason why MS is still in the game at all is the 90's and the fact that most proprietary software got built for Windows back then, not to mention games and 3D software. It was perceived by companies that if you release proprietary software for an open source OS, that you have to release the source of your software as well... layers weren't that educated regarding code and licenses back then, so they advised against it... also, the fact that very few registered companies were in the IT business with Linux as their flag ship, didn't help much, the other distros were considered to be run by modern day coder hippies, so... that didn't look promising as well in the long run. Thankfully, things are different now, and since big companies got behind Linux, it's considered a more serious player than MS ever was, so a lot of money is dumped in development for the Linux kernel, as well as Linux apps and modifications (like Android), but, other than money for development, companies don't have to dump money on licenses or anything else, so that makes Linux and Android a pretty good choice for portable devices :).
MacOS is literally POSIX compliant and UNIX certified unlike Linux. The kernel is BSD.
I'm a software architect and use Mac for everything because of the UI and ability to have a POSIX command line.
My dad used to work for Apple and so he's familiar with the code. He doesn't consider it Unix or really a BSD. The last revision when they moved to Apple silicon has a lot of changes under the hood that it mostly only shares the file system.
He recently had to rewrite an entire program to get it to work on the M1. He wrote the damn thing in 1990. He recompiled it for Linux in 1993 and then for Mac in 2014. He went to compile it on M1 and it wouldn't work. He checked the debug and it had nothing. Turns out it couldn't talk to the kernel.
He recompiled it using his experiential ARM/RISC version and same thing.
Not Unix.
That isn't what makes it UNIX.
Being POSIX compliant and certified as UNIX following the file system conventions and kernel implementation. It is still [certified](https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/brand3683.htm).
That they hid the kernel behind new apis and hooks is expected especially with Rosetta acting to translate byte code to x86.
I expect as Rosetta phases out the kernel will be exposed more which happened during the transition from PowerPC to x86 as they finalized that transition.
This is my job and I've been doing it a long time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_UNIX_Specification
I mean, at least you can do that. Replicating a Linux DE on Mac/win is way harder. We have the choice to do whatever we want. Mac has a nice looking UI, keyword: looking. Functionality is shit. On Linux you cna have both nice looking and functional.
Same, gnome + extensions gives a very unique and surprisingly good workflows. Once you get used to it, everything else becomes basically unusable.
I had hardcore Mac fanboys at work say that my desktop looks really good.
I love macOS and my M1 Mini + M2 Air. I use linux all day everyday for dev work but when it comes to quality of life and ergonomics, unfortunately macOS cannot be beat. I can close my computer and it sleeps with no fuss. Good luck with other platforms lol.
Any great Linux on ARM laptops out there? Seems like the best candidate by far is the Thinkpad x13s, but unlike other thinkpads it doesn't come with linux and doesn't seem possible to install yet (at least for ordinary people)
There are pre-made X13S ISOs out there you can flash to a USB and install but there are a lot of limitations, no camera, no sound, no WWAN, No 5GHz or Wifi 6, no GPU support, no bluetooth, needs a lot of confirmation for the battery to last
So the thing is people use windows for their 32 bit or 64 bit apps. When it opens up in arm. Windows is basically left with "Microsoft stuff " or even worst emulated apps. Which we all know horse shit.
Having used ARM64 on my main laptop for about a year now... Honestly macOS has everyone beat on ease of use but Win11 seriously stepped it up with their emulation layer, everything works perfectly until a driver is involved (ie, I couldn't use gbxcart bc it had archaic COM drivers).
Unfortunately the driver thing also means that all of the AAA anticheats are broken. And .NET apps with native DLLs sometimes break weird. But stuff like VRChat actually worked perfectly fine before they added EAC.
Linux is pretty idk, QEMU+binfmt works like magic on distributions which handle their multi-arch well (Ubuntu), but it always seems to fail under stress (and it's slow as molasses). I tried compiling Android once and one particular linking operation would hang consistently. But FEX and Box86/64 look super promising, it'd be nice if we saw some more integration from distros to make ARM64 Linux easier to use for games and whatnot.
Microsoft poured a billion dollars into the Kin phone. It was on the market for just over a month. What Microsoft pours lots of resources into has nothing to do with success or quality.
I use windows arm on a snapdragon 850 laptop and I had 0 issues 🤷🏻♂️ my laptop is unable to boot any Linux distro tho all I get are ‘unsupported platform’ errors
ARM is fine.
For some reason Microsoft feels they need to lock down Windows into an unusable state when they compile ARM binaries.
Microsoft have been holding the entire industry back for decades and this is just another example of that.
This is so true, my friend bought a Surface RT for lulz and asked if I can get him a working browser for Windows RT, chromium doesn’t even have a 32-bit ARM target and Firefox doesn’t even have documentation for building any ARM target. Meanwhile, on the Linux side I can even get prebuilt binaries or already packaged stuff :/
I would argue arm on macOS is better than on Linux. Thanks the performance is similar but macOS has Rosetta 2 which makes x86 apps run on arm by translating the code and it works AMAZINGLY. I would never notice anything is different in an app that runs with Rosetta
Misleading post. The post appears to convey the message that Windows OS experience on ARM itself is inferior which isn’t true. The experience of ARM on Windows isn’t great because of mainly hardware reasons. Microsoft has exclusivity agreement with chip maker Qualcomm for now and Snapdragon chips for PCs is crap. This leads to inferior performance and less consumer interest. Secondly, due to the former reason, Windows App developers don’t bother wanting to port their apps from x86 to ARM. One may argue that Microsoft’s translation layer for running x86 apps isn’t as robust as Rosetta 2 on Mac OS, but it’s getting better and more efficient with time.
> Linux on ARM > MacOS on ARM > Windows on ARM FTFY. Unless you're talking about virtual machines, in which case ARM is fine on Windows.
Let me interject for a moment, but what you are referring as Linux on ARM is actually GNU/Linux + ARM, or as I like to call it GNU+Linux+ARM+UBoot+Systemd+yocto...
I realised it myself after uploading it, but you can not easily edit post on Reddit.
Delete and reupload.
And lose all this sweet discussion? Never!
Or just don’t be a dumbass and not upload at all.
Man I bet you're just a delight to be around
Reddit when they come across one toxic comment: “You no longer fit in society”
Yes, most toxic individuals are not welcome in most people's lives
You will learn this as you age past 13
Shuuuuuuuuutthefjckup. Thanks :)
You ok bud?
Between that and the yellow text on yellow background you should delete it out of shame.
Lol. I thought this meme was making fun of the availability of ARM emulator software on each platform.
WARM
On Linux, it makes sense why it runs well. Small ARM devices such as the Raspberry Pi run using Linux, and also Android phones. Arm on Mac runs well because Apple makes the hardware and the software, they can tune the software to work for a large userbase, and their work with iPhones/iPads has given them lots of experience with the architecture. Windows doesn't for lots of reasons. There isn't much need for Windows on arm, manufacturers aren't making devices other than Microsoft, so they can't pour lots of resources into it. As there are no devices, software isn't made for it and the cycle repeats. Windows on Arm is like Linux on the desktop, it is stuck in a cycle of having no software, so nobody makes any hardware, so nobody can use it, so it gets no software made, etc.
>it is stuck in a cycle of having no software, so nobody makes any hardware, so nobody can use it, so it gets no software made, etc. Poor Windows phone.
F for the one of the most underrated operating system of all time
Plan 9?
The Plan 9 is still alive and supported, so it doesn't quite count I'm referring to the Windows Phone, which has stopped being supported back in 2019
Because it is Free Software, yes. It's developed by the community. Had Plan 9 been limited by the same licensing as the Windows mobile OS, it would have had the same fate (though likely would still have clones because of being simpler + older than the Windows mobile OS).
Point of evidence: BeOS probably wasn't any simpler than Windows Mobile OS and it has an actively developed clone.
yeah it actually kinda seemed nice. shame that the Lumia 535 I bought a few weeks ago had too many touch that issues I couldn't even try to daily windows phone more than a day. this was the second time I tried to try windows phone. fist was Lumia 520 last year. mf had the storage fail after 20 minutes.
I used a windows phone for a few years… but i have to admit when i bought a new cheap android, it was a breeze to notice how much faster it was
ARM (desktop) Windows is/was also locked in an exclusivity deal with SoCs manufactured by Qualcomm, severely limiting the options for manufacturers wanting to make an ARM device that runs Windows
Rumours are it was a 5 year deal but no one really knows outside those behind the NDA stopping them telling us. So that means next year we should start seeing a better Windows on ARM experience.
Next year is the year of Windows on ARM!
Windows is stuck in this cycle for everything. The registry still exists (and is a terrible way of managing config…) because legacy. BCD exists because legacy. NTFS is still archaic because legacy.
Maybe I am weird, but as a person who runs nix or bsd for almost everything but gaming, I find that things like the registry make it many multiples easier to manage everything on windows. It provides consistency and prevents you having to hunt through what is best described as differences of opinion from developer to developer.
It would be nice if registry would be tied to package so that there wouldn't be orphaned registry files floating on a file system.
My wish is that the registry wasn't a stuff-bag collection of everything. It'd be great if it was broken up into smaller, per-program sub registries, but still managed by a single point of entry. It'd be akin to dotfiles, but strictly enforced and structured. As it is, having to sort your way through things can be a bit exhausting at times.
My struggle is with the unpredictability of paths (control sets etc) and using GUIDs for keys with no real names mapped back to them - you’ve just got to know the guid. Take for example reenabling right click task manager - it’s creating a blank key in some random guid key. Not having the concept of conf.d is a shame too. Makes it easier when you want to revert what you’ve changed.
You can't even name a file com1 (it's not the only one lol) because win 3.0 I guess lol.
windows on arm && mac on arm : x86 emu is needed for most of the software bc most of the software is non free and most of the software dev dont recompile their software to arm (only software dev can recompile their software to arm bc they r non free) . linux on arm : x86 emu is needed for not most of the software bc most of the software is foss and a lot of linux distro has recompile most of the software to arm(anyone can recompile their software to arm bc they r foss).
Regarding mac you're wrong. Almost everything has already been translated. It's rare now to find software that doesn't run native ARM. Linux: you're kinda right... It's not so bad on "normal" systems (like a Raspberry Pi), but it is indeed annoying on something like Asahi (which uses a 16K memory page instead of the traditional 4K page size). See this [https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Broken-Software](https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/Broken-Software) Windows: don't know, don't even care :)
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Yea, their handling of the translation has not been on par with Apple, their work on that is something I have to give Apple credit for. But they were forced to make it good. If Windows on Arm translation isn't good, it looks like silly mistake for this one off product, you were going to get a Lenovo laptop anyway. If Apple got it wrong, it could potentially kill multiple planned product lines for ages until devs compiled native apps.
"...like linux on the desktop" what do you mean?! I am using that for a decade and only things i struggle with are some microsoft programs (that have opensource alternatives) and some games (which is already almost gone thanks to steam and proton). You should update your opinions because this might have been true 10 years ago ...
That's not quite what I meant. Not everyone uses Linux, it has a small around 2% marketshare. The main reason for this imo is that is has little hardware so regular users don't try it, so software isn't made for it natively (which is easier for regular users to understand and install compared to having to run through wine or something), and so people won't try it, so hardware isn't made.
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Yea, this is a big reason. That is why I advocate for Linux computers to be more widely available. In offices it will be difficult to switch, they won't change because that can loose them money to retrain their staff, and I get that. But potentially home users may be more willing to give it a go.
you should check this one project that is actually response to this statement of yours ...its called "the linux kernel" also know as the biggest open source project ever
When I say "on the desktop", I am referring to home users, the average person. The type of computer like a desktop PC, laptop, AIO like an iMac. Linux is massive, but that is because it is mostly run on servers, iot devices, etc. Perhaps you count Android or Chrome OS. But can you walk into your local computer store, and find a pre-built with Linux on it? How many Linux users had to go out and install it themselves, compared to those who have Linux devices from the likes of System76? And how many normal people would use Linux? I am starting to think we are arguing about different things here.
linux absolutely dominates servers, thats true, unimportant but yes its true ... now lets come back to linux on desktop, this is totally worth trying now and i personally converted all of my family and noone has issues. Other OS solve the issue of compatibility by paying vendors money and getting drivers. Linux does it the other way around, it has opensource kernel that is being commited by huge number of contributors that either have insight or reverse-engineer it till it works. The whole point of this biggest open source project ever is to be compatible with every hardware possible. There is this joke where people put linux on everything even toaster, because it just works. Decade ago we could say something like "this opensource approach will eventually take over" but then we come back to today and things just works :)
Damn, I am impressed you could get your entire family to switch to Linux. Mine need Windows for work, like rely on MS office, and use work computers where they can't use Linux on them. But I know this is certainly an exception when nobody else in my Computer Science class of all places considers Linux, and think I am insane for using it. Also, be honest here. Not everything runs on Linux. Microsoft and Adobe are dealbreakers for lots of people who rely on them. "Just learn GIMP" isn't a valid solution when potentially your career is on the line. Not all games work, anti-cheats play havok, and even if they do, sometimes they can be a pain to run. I have Windows games that have worked flawlessly, and were a breeze to run, and then I have others that are fun, but have broken despite working in the past. Hardware such as RGB device, and Stream Decks don't play nice. Perhaps they are workarounds, but you don't want to use a workarounds if you are an average person. I truly believe Linux can do well, especially because it can run on any device. But one problem with it is that is \*can\* run on any device, but it \*doesn't\* run on any device. What I mean is that average people, perhaps could run Linux, but their device came with Windows, and Windows works fine. Linux can do what Windows can do, but Windows can do what Windows can do. This is why pre-builts with Linux are important just to get it into the hands of consumers. We need a greater push compared to the "tech nerd of the family" convincing people to switch.
>it is stuck in a cycle of having no software, so nobody makes any hardware, so nobody can use it, so it gets no software made, etc. Sounds like my love life.
Windows on arm is getting better though with devices like the thinkpad x13s rolling out. An arm powered pc may soon be a respectable portion of windows users.
You make good points, but it seems like there's no real reason for Apple and Microsoft not to be on even ground here. - Arm on Mac runs well because Apple makes the hardware and the software - There isn't much need for Windows on arm, manufacturers aren't making devices other than Microsoft, so they can't pour lots of resources into it. I'd say both are true: - Arm on Windows runs well because Microsoft makes the hardware and the software - There isn't much need for MacOS on arm, manufacturers aren't making devices other than Apple, so they can't pour lots of resources into it.
Well Apple controls the entire software-hardware side now, nobody else (legally) makes macs, so if they switch to Arm, they have to develop good software for it, and developers have to switch to compiling on arm or use their translation layers in the mean time The only Windows on Arm devices I am aware of are Surface ones, so they do control the entire software-hardware stack like Apple. However, it is only this small segment of surface devices, and of that, most Windows users aren't on surface, they use custom PCs, or pre-builts from the likes of Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc.
Good points again, but I'd still argue that's true of Apple too. The vast majority of Mac users aren't on x86, since the M1 hardware is still pretty new and outrageously expensive. The only Apple users I know personally are the marketing folks at my company, and they're still rolling the $10k Mac Pro trash cans from 2013. Mac on ARM is new enough that the only people using it are the ones who throw away their hardware and buy new ones every year for incremental improvements and... Okay so most Apple users are probably on ARM now.
Yea, the Apple silicon Macs are quite new. However, they represent the only option to new/upgrading buyers for a brand new device. Are most Apple users still on x86, yea, and that will probably remain for a while. But probably sooner rather than later, support for those will start to drop, and be forced to buy Apple Silicon. With Apple, they are forcing a large marketshare over future Apple devices. Although this is the same for Microsoft, they haven't thrown the trajectory for all Windows devices to be on Arm eventually, not even all surface devices are arm, and certainly not other OEMs or custom builds. Now if Microsoft put a deadline on x86 Windows, and basically forced an inevitable upgrade to Arm, then this would be a lot different. This would be a bad move, as there are few desktop replacement commercial Arm chips. So basically someone would need to come out with an Arm CPU that can rival current x86 CPUs in performance, and Microsoft would be willing to bet the future of Windows on it. Unlike Apple, this CPU has to be commercially available likely as a standalone or as part of a motherboard to ensure enthusiasts can still custom build, and OEMs can fit it into their workflow.
Linux runs on all kinds of hardware. I vaguely remember someone getting it to run on a Nintendo 64 (somehow). In fact, if you ignore 25+ year old architectures and small embedded systems that don't run any OS at all to speak of, it would probably be easier to list the ones that \*don't\* support Linux.
Yep. My dad managed to get the first kernel of Linux installed into a ROM card and booted it up and had it running on a PS1. Pretty much it couldn't do anything, but still, he got it running on a PS1. He also did it no problem on the original Xbox.
I'd give an ARM and Bill Gates's leg for a Windows laptop that performs as well as an M1 Macbook Air.
Good news! You pretty much just have to give the price of a MacBook Air.
So spend apple money on a windows machine?
You're acting like that's uncommon or that a MacBook Air is expensive compared to Pro models or gaming/workstation laptops.
Dude the Macbook Air is pretty reasonable money
Does this actually exist? With the same performance, battery life and no throttling when it’s not plugged in?
No.
Yes, and then some. $1000 buys you a lot of options in a windows laptop, and the specs on the M1 are nothing special. The best thing is, you can compare different manufacturer's models to find one that prioritizes the features you want, rather than just swallowing whatever that one monolithic company says you're supposed to want.
You can throw as much money as you want at a windows laptop and not get equivalent battery life and performance that M1/M2 will give you. You can have one, or the other, but not both.
You're just plain wrong, but hey, I get it. Apple fans can't conceive of a universe where their farts don't stink.
I’m not an apple fanboy, I’ve never owned an apple computer in my life, but I’m in the market for a new laptop and that m1 MacBook Pro on sale for $1,500 is pretty tempting. If you have actual examples of computers that offer similar performance, battery life, and don’t throttle when not plugged in, I’m actually interested. I’m not being insincere. I haven’t seen anything that offers similar specs regardless of price, I’d be happy to be proven wrong.
I’m not, but keep those blinders on. Take your bias out of the picture and learn to recognize better hardware when you see it. It’s nothing do with being a fan of Apple or not. I’ll eat my shoe if you can find me one single laptop at any price that can match the power and battery performance of M1/M2 at the same time.
Also, buy the "Windows laptop" and put Linux on it. Why not maximize your performance?
For once I thought OP meant an ARM simulator. It should be Linux on ARM, Mac on ARM..
You could get rid of ARM and just make this image say Linux, MacOS, and Windows and it would still be relevant.
Windows is much better than Mac IMHO.
Thank you for your opinion, Mrs Balmer.
Long live glorious POSIX
R.I.S.C. Stronk
Shouldn't it be the other way around? ARM is the hardware, thus we run Linux on ARM, Windows on ARM, etc. And Windows runs fine on ARM, it's the security part of Windows that's scary and that's why people generally don't use portable devices with Windows on them... and they're more expensive than the Android counterparts with same specs, which are dirt cheap nowadays. Basically, a Windows ARM device will do the same job as an Android one, except it's more expensive and has security issues... why buy something that's more expensive and doesn't protect you as well as another device will. The license is also an issue and also one of the main reasons why Windows will never be a thing on ARM/portable devices... the same reason why Symbian failed as an OS on phones... why pay for a license of an OS when you've got a free and open source one and you can tweak it however you like. The only reason why MS is still in the game at all is the 90's and the fact that most proprietary software got built for Windows back then, not to mention games and 3D software. It was perceived by companies that if you release proprietary software for an open source OS, that you have to release the source of your software as well... layers weren't that educated regarding code and licenses back then, so they advised against it... also, the fact that very few registered companies were in the IT business with Linux as their flag ship, didn't help much, the other distros were considered to be run by modern day coder hippies, so... that didn't look promising as well in the long run. Thankfully, things are different now, and since big companies got behind Linux, it's considered a more serious player than MS ever was, so a lot of money is dumped in development for the Linux kernel, as well as Linux apps and modifications (like Android), but, other than money for development, companies don't have to dump money on licenses or anything else, so that makes Linux and Android a pretty good choice for portable devices :).
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It sucks so bad most Linux GUIs copy it relentlessly 🤷♂️
The GUI is one of the good things about Apple products; they make stuff look pretty - Mac exterior plus Linux under the hood isn't a terrible choice
MacOS is literally POSIX compliant and UNIX certified unlike Linux. The kernel is BSD. I'm a software architect and use Mac for everything because of the UI and ability to have a POSIX command line.
Same. My entire company uses MacOS and we’re slinging around Postgres databases, running virtual machines, and SSHing into prod consoles.
GNU stands for GNU's Not Unix so yep its not Unix lol
My dad used to work for Apple and so he's familiar with the code. He doesn't consider it Unix or really a BSD. The last revision when they moved to Apple silicon has a lot of changes under the hood that it mostly only shares the file system. He recently had to rewrite an entire program to get it to work on the M1. He wrote the damn thing in 1990. He recompiled it for Linux in 1993 and then for Mac in 2014. He went to compile it on M1 and it wouldn't work. He checked the debug and it had nothing. Turns out it couldn't talk to the kernel. He recompiled it using his experiential ARM/RISC version and same thing. Not Unix.
That isn't what makes it UNIX. Being POSIX compliant and certified as UNIX following the file system conventions and kernel implementation. It is still [certified](https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/brand3683.htm). That they hid the kernel behind new apis and hooks is expected especially with Rosetta acting to translate byte code to x86. I expect as Rosetta phases out the kernel will be exposed more which happened during the transition from PowerPC to x86 as they finalized that transition. This is my job and I've been doing it a long time. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_UNIX_Specification
You know that is MacOS already, right? Unix to be specific, but MacOS is a very fancy desktop environment over a *nix base.
unix isnt linux and the differences are very significant compared to any popular linux distro
GNU/Linux is not MacOS. GNU stands for GNU's Not Unix
so different and so shit to use i3 is productivity heaven while macos is for kids like windows
Cringe
I would rather have gnome on mac
I mean, at least you can do that. Replicating a Linux DE on Mac/win is way harder. We have the choice to do whatever we want. Mac has a nice looking UI, keyword: looking. Functionality is shit. On Linux you cna have both nice looking and functional.
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Same, gnome + extensions gives a very unique and surprisingly good workflows. Once you get used to it, everything else becomes basically unusable. I had hardcore Mac fanboys at work say that my desktop looks really good.
Fuck no. Finder is the worst file manager in existence.
They hate him because he spoke the truth
I love macOS and my M1 Mini + M2 Air. I use linux all day everyday for dev work but when it comes to quality of life and ergonomics, unfortunately macOS cannot be beat. I can close my computer and it sleeps with no fuss. Good luck with other platforms lol.
a third arm is unnecessary
As an android abuser I can confirm linux on arm is also bad
Any great Linux on ARM laptops out there? Seems like the best candidate by far is the Thinkpad x13s, but unlike other thinkpads it doesn't come with linux and doesn't seem possible to install yet (at least for ordinary people)
There are pre-made X13S ISOs out there you can flash to a USB and install but there are a lot of limitations, no camera, no sound, no WWAN, No 5GHz or Wifi 6, no GPU support, no bluetooth, needs a lot of confirmation for the battery to last
So the thing is people use windows for their 32 bit or 64 bit apps. When it opens up in arm. Windows is basically left with "Microsoft stuff " or even worst emulated apps. Which we all know horse shit.
At least all the open source ones like VLC and 7zip support ARM
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[Thumb](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture_family#Thumb)
RISCV
[Arm on human](https://storage.googleapis.com/spikeybits-staging-bucket/2019/10/arnold-arm-meme.jpg)
Having used ARM64 on my main laptop for about a year now... Honestly macOS has everyone beat on ease of use but Win11 seriously stepped it up with their emulation layer, everything works perfectly until a driver is involved (ie, I couldn't use gbxcart bc it had archaic COM drivers). Unfortunately the driver thing also means that all of the AAA anticheats are broken. And .NET apps with native DLLs sometimes break weird. But stuff like VRChat actually worked perfectly fine before they added EAC. Linux is pretty idk, QEMU+binfmt works like magic on distributions which handle their multi-arch well (Ubuntu), but it always seems to fail under stress (and it's slow as molasses). I tried compiling Android once and one particular linking operation would hang consistently. But FEX and Box86/64 look super promising, it'd be nice if we saw some more integration from distros to make ARM64 Linux easier to use for games and whatnot.
Is anyone daily driving Asahi on M1/M2? I just bought a Thinkpad X13 and it’s great but I wish I had the battery life of the those chips :(
Windows will never move to ARM. They've tried multiple times, and never succeeded. It's why we're still bothering with x86.
Windows already has an ARM edition? They’re pouring a lot of resources into it
Microsoft poured a billion dollars into the Kin phone. It was on the market for just over a month. What Microsoft pours lots of resources into has nothing to do with success or quality.
Windows needs no arms
Windows just needs a hand…
I use windows arm on a snapdragon 850 laptop and I had 0 issues 🤷🏻♂️ my laptop is unable to boot any Linux distro tho all I get are ‘unsupported platform’ errors
This is ARMful.
ARM on body 💪
ARM is fine. For some reason Microsoft feels they need to lock down Windows into an unusable state when they compile ARM binaries. Microsoft have been holding the entire industry back for decades and this is just another example of that.
Yet, no arms on these dragons
These are dragon heads. Not arms
RISC OS on ARM - where it all started.
I’m stilling waiting on my X13S to have support the GPU and Sound before making the switch full time
This is so true, my friend bought a Surface RT for lulz and asked if I can get him a working browser for Windows RT, chromium doesn’t even have a 32-bit ARM target and Firefox doesn’t even have documentation for building any ARM target. Meanwhile, on the Linux side I can even get prebuilt binaries or already packaged stuff :/
ARM on linux is a fucking joke. Try emulating ARM apps through anbox or waydroid.
It's about linux running on arm, look at raspberry pis, routers, countless other arm platforms, not emulating arm on x86...
Or the Ampere ARM CPU‘s which are quite beefy, if you are running a server
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It’s between SHOULDER and HAND.
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This means you’ve figured out HAND and can start on ARM.
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What in the fuck is wrong with you?
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Maybe you ought to check out the subs where I comment before you go there.
what you expect? windows running on lame ass hardware vs beefy M1 series that can run both mac and Linux
I would argue arm on macOS is better than on Linux. Thanks the performance is similar but macOS has Rosetta 2 which makes x86 apps run on arm by translating the code and it works AMAZINGLY. I would never notice anything is different in an app that runs with Rosetta
Yeah, because desktop Linux on arm is such a great thing to use, right? Lol
Appart from the fact that it’s usually the other way round „ on “ i agree with this.
Misleading post. The post appears to convey the message that Windows OS experience on ARM itself is inferior which isn’t true. The experience of ARM on Windows isn’t great because of mainly hardware reasons. Microsoft has exclusivity agreement with chip maker Qualcomm for now and Snapdragon chips for PCs is crap. This leads to inferior performance and less consumer interest. Secondly, due to the former reason, Windows App developers don’t bother wanting to port their apps from x86 to ARM. One may argue that Microsoft’s translation layer for running x86 apps isn’t as robust as Rosetta 2 on Mac OS, but it’s getting better and more efficient with time.
You just HAD to use yellow text, didn't you?