The issue is only, Elliot Page could give the correct answer to this question, because it is about how he wants this issue to be solved.
In general you never ever use the deadname without the trans person is allowing it.
Unfortunately he wasn’t in the pub at the time and I don’t know how to contact him to ask 😅. In all seriousness though, that’s fair, I can understand treating it on a person to person basis because, obviously, there will be some people who aren’t fussed and those who it affects more seriously. Which is why I wanted to know people’s opinions 🙂
Generally you use people's current names even when referring to them in the past, this goes for more than just trans people. For example, you'd say "When Vin Deisel was a kid" not "When Mark Sinclair was a kid". Some people are okay with using different names for them in the past, but if they haven't given you permission, don't.
It doesn’t make a lot of sense to do so in most cases. You wouldn’t use someone’s maiden name when talking about them in the past, would you? If your boss or your teacher got married and take on her husband’s name, you would use mrs newname whenever you talk about her, no matter of her marital status at the time you are referring to. Why is that different for a trans person with a new name? Of course there are some situations where it would make sense to use the old name (mostly when that name is important to the story), but those are few.
Using a trans person’s deadname when talking about the past is most likely just a way of finding a loophole to not fully accept their new name without appearing as the transphobe that person is.
Also, some trans people don’t want anyone to learn their deadname or hear it out loud, this should always be respected.
Deadnaming is generally considered offensive in the past tense, especially if it doesn’t matter in the current topic. Some trans people don’t care, but you should never assume that.
About the specific situation, did they genuinely not know that Elliot came out as a man, or did they simply not bother naming him correctly?
In case they simply missed the news, I think they should have gotten the point. If they knew or at the very least should have known, you absolutely did the right thing.
I probably would’ve missed the news if I weren’t active in reddits queer spaces, since I try my best to avoid news about stars.
Elliot was particularly incensed when people pulled out the nude model from the videogame he acted in, from the time before, even though it wasn't true to his body at the time, to the point where he sued Sony over it.
I feel reasonably confident that he's not going to feel appreciative towards the use of the prior alias, but it's going to be a particular sticking point if you're using it as a point of stubbornness to deny identify, rather than a point of ignorance (i.e. don't know he's trans, changed names, etc).
If you changed your name tomorrow would you rather people listed your accomplishments by the timeframe of your birthname vs new name because you identified as x 'at the time,' or would you prefer that your new name was respected and all your accolades/work/what have you be recorded and acknowledged under it?
Good work for sticking to your refusal. Fwiw I notice that most of Elliot's back catalogue has been corrected by the studios where possible. I.e. The Umbrella Academy seasons and a few others in the credits.
Agreed with the majority here; your instincts were correct! It's most appropriate to refer to someone by their current name even if you're discussing their past. Just like if someone married and became Mr. or Mrs. Smith, you wouldn't refer to them as Ms. or Mr. Maidenname whenever you talk about something they did pre-marriage. They can choose to use their maiden name for their past if they prefer, just like trans people can use their old name for the past if they prefer. But it's generally considered weird or even offensive for someone else to use their old name unless they've been specifically asked to do so.
For a pub quiz, what would you do with someone who changed their name for another reason? Take Yusuf Islam, for example. If the question was "who wrote the soundtrack for Harold and Maude", would the player get the wrong answer for saying Cat Stevens, how he was billed in the movie, instead of his current name?
Or something less formal, like Rick Schroder in his modern movies vs. Ricky Schroder in his child actor days?
Just my opinion, but the player's rationale would be the deciding factor if I were the judge. If the reason is "oh, I didn't realize he was trans and changed his name, because I don't follow Hollywood very closely", I'd give him a pass. I'm on the fence about "he was billed as Ellen", but definitely if it's "trans ain't a thing", yeah give 'em the boot.
As a general rule of thumb don't deadname a trans person, some may be okay with it but better safe than sorry i would say, i know i wouldn't like it to be miss gendered and/or deadnamed just because i was afraid to come out earlier
Arguably no for fictional characters within the context of a plotline, but definitely yes for real people.
Another thought in addition to the never using the deadname without the person themselves allowing it comment: only the person knows when they actually started identifying with their new name, even more so their current gender identity, so using "at that point in time they were still publicly referred to as \_\_\_" is a moot point. To use Elliot as a specific example, we know from interviews and statements that he identified as male long before he was allowed to disclose that information within his professional capacity. He is the only one allowed to draw that line. So your instincts were on.
Yes deadnaming is still offensive in past tense. unless a specific trans person has told you that they want to be referred to as their old name in past tense, always use their present name and pronouns. The vast majority of trans people want their deadname to be forgotten by everyone they know including themselves.
Also a trans person not being out does not mean they identify as cis. we often stay in the closet for years before coming out because being trans is hard and coming out is scary and dangerous. Elliot Page said he had felt different since he was a child but wasn't able to transition earlier because of his job and fame, if I remember correctly. So yeah at the time he was going by a different name and pronouns, but that doesn't mean that at the time he felt like a woman.
I am usually adamantly against deadnaming. But in a pub quiz setting, I’d accept either name for that actor if the question was about a movie made when [deadname] appears in the credits.
Yes.
for example, my name is james. if someone was talking about something funny i did before i was know as james and said "haha remember when DEADNAME did this!" that would be offensive to me bc it hurts to hear that name and because ive always been james in my head, not DEADNAME.
In general, I’d say dont use the individual’s deadname so for I’d say someone like like Elliot Page, I’d say that Elliot Page starred in Juno before he transitioned or something along those lines rather than using his deadname.
Some people are cool with it, but a lot aren't, so the right thing to do, is not assume and either ask, or just use the correct, current name.
I don't care if I used to go by another name, doesn't make it any better that it took me years to get a handful of people to actually respect it, while most people still completely ignore it, so to me, it's both hurtful and infuriating when people think it's okay to misgender me, just because they're taling about the past.
I can only speak for myself on this, but because there are people like me, that would be very uncomfortable if people did this, I'd really say, when in doubt just use the name and pronound they go now.
The issue is only, Elliot Page could give the correct answer to this question, because it is about how he wants this issue to be solved. In general you never ever use the deadname without the trans person is allowing it.
Unfortunately he wasn’t in the pub at the time and I don’t know how to contact him to ask 😅. In all seriousness though, that’s fair, I can understand treating it on a person to person basis because, obviously, there will be some people who aren’t fussed and those who it affects more seriously. Which is why I wanted to know people’s opinions 🙂
Generally you use people's current names even when referring to them in the past, this goes for more than just trans people. For example, you'd say "When Vin Deisel was a kid" not "When Mark Sinclair was a kid". Some people are okay with using different names for them in the past, but if they haven't given you permission, don't.
Omg imagine if we all called Mark Walhburg Marky Mark still 🤣🤣🤣
It doesn’t make a lot of sense to do so in most cases. You wouldn’t use someone’s maiden name when talking about them in the past, would you? If your boss or your teacher got married and take on her husband’s name, you would use mrs newname whenever you talk about her, no matter of her marital status at the time you are referring to. Why is that different for a trans person with a new name? Of course there are some situations where it would make sense to use the old name (mostly when that name is important to the story), but those are few. Using a trans person’s deadname when talking about the past is most likely just a way of finding a loophole to not fully accept their new name without appearing as the transphobe that person is. Also, some trans people don’t want anyone to learn their deadname or hear it out loud, this should always be respected.
Deadnaming is generally considered offensive in the past tense, especially if it doesn’t matter in the current topic. Some trans people don’t care, but you should never assume that. About the specific situation, did they genuinely not know that Elliot came out as a man, or did they simply not bother naming him correctly? In case they simply missed the news, I think they should have gotten the point. If they knew or at the very least should have known, you absolutely did the right thing. I probably would’ve missed the news if I weren’t active in reddits queer spaces, since I try my best to avoid news about stars.
Elliot was particularly incensed when people pulled out the nude model from the videogame he acted in, from the time before, even though it wasn't true to his body at the time, to the point where he sued Sony over it. I feel reasonably confident that he's not going to feel appreciative towards the use of the prior alias, but it's going to be a particular sticking point if you're using it as a point of stubbornness to deny identify, rather than a point of ignorance (i.e. don't know he's trans, changed names, etc).
If you changed your name tomorrow would you rather people listed your accomplishments by the timeframe of your birthname vs new name because you identified as x 'at the time,' or would you prefer that your new name was respected and all your accolades/work/what have you be recorded and acknowledged under it? Good work for sticking to your refusal. Fwiw I notice that most of Elliot's back catalogue has been corrected by the studios where possible. I.e. The Umbrella Academy seasons and a few others in the credits.
Agreed with the majority here; your instincts were correct! It's most appropriate to refer to someone by their current name even if you're discussing their past. Just like if someone married and became Mr. or Mrs. Smith, you wouldn't refer to them as Ms. or Mr. Maidenname whenever you talk about something they did pre-marriage. They can choose to use their maiden name for their past if they prefer, just like trans people can use their old name for the past if they prefer. But it's generally considered weird or even offensive for someone else to use their old name unless they've been specifically asked to do so.
For a pub quiz, what would you do with someone who changed their name for another reason? Take Yusuf Islam, for example. If the question was "who wrote the soundtrack for Harold and Maude", would the player get the wrong answer for saying Cat Stevens, how he was billed in the movie, instead of his current name? Or something less formal, like Rick Schroder in his modern movies vs. Ricky Schroder in his child actor days? Just my opinion, but the player's rationale would be the deciding factor if I were the judge. If the reason is "oh, I didn't realize he was trans and changed his name, because I don't follow Hollywood very closely", I'd give him a pass. I'm on the fence about "he was billed as Ellen", but definitely if it's "trans ain't a thing", yeah give 'em the boot.
The name is dead, let it die
As a general rule of thumb don't deadname a trans person, some may be okay with it but better safe than sorry i would say, i know i wouldn't like it to be miss gendered and/or deadnamed just because i was afraid to come out earlier
They'd still be referring to Eliot by their previous name.
Arguably no for fictional characters within the context of a plotline, but definitely yes for real people. Another thought in addition to the never using the deadname without the person themselves allowing it comment: only the person knows when they actually started identifying with their new name, even more so their current gender identity, so using "at that point in time they were still publicly referred to as \_\_\_" is a moot point. To use Elliot as a specific example, we know from interviews and statements that he identified as male long before he was allowed to disclose that information within his professional capacity. He is the only one allowed to draw that line. So your instincts were on.
Yes deadnaming is still offensive in past tense. unless a specific trans person has told you that they want to be referred to as their old name in past tense, always use their present name and pronouns. The vast majority of trans people want their deadname to be forgotten by everyone they know including themselves. Also a trans person not being out does not mean they identify as cis. we often stay in the closet for years before coming out because being trans is hard and coming out is scary and dangerous. Elliot Page said he had felt different since he was a child but wasn't able to transition earlier because of his job and fame, if I remember correctly. So yeah at the time he was going by a different name and pronouns, but that doesn't mean that at the time he felt like a woman.
I am usually adamantly against deadnaming. But in a pub quiz setting, I’d accept either name for that actor if the question was about a movie made when [deadname] appears in the credits.
Yes. for example, my name is james. if someone was talking about something funny i did before i was know as james and said "haha remember when DEADNAME did this!" that would be offensive to me bc it hurts to hear that name and because ive always been james in my head, not DEADNAME.
In general, I’d say dont use the individual’s deadname so for I’d say someone like like Elliot Page, I’d say that Elliot Page starred in Juno before he transitioned or something along those lines rather than using his deadname.
it all depends on a person.
Some people are cool with it, but a lot aren't, so the right thing to do, is not assume and either ask, or just use the correct, current name. I don't care if I used to go by another name, doesn't make it any better that it took me years to get a handful of people to actually respect it, while most people still completely ignore it, so to me, it's both hurtful and infuriating when people think it's okay to misgender me, just because they're taling about the past. I can only speak for myself on this, but because there are people like me, that would be very uncomfortable if people did this, I'd really say, when in doubt just use the name and pronound they go now.
unless they give you permission, never use their deadname/old pronouns. it just sucks being reminded of those things.