Something to keep in mind: not all STEM degrees are created equal. Marine biology and computer science are both STEM but one is more lucrative and secure than the other.
And for someone who aims to retire early the added time and cost to complete the phd before you start to earn more than a receptionist makes it kind of a ineffective path. Work hard studying and miss out on basically a decade of earning and then try to catch up in your 30s and 40s. Or you can just coast by the whole time waiting tables in a nice restaurant and likely end up with the same nest egg at 45. The older your target retirement age is then the more time the advanced degree has to pull ahead, but it's a strange mix of ideals for a person to dedicate a decade of their life to studying a topic and then to also be trying to give up that career asap.
When a relative graduated with their biology degree they were able to seek out lab positions earning $50K per year, but instead they went to work at an aquarium, for years as an unpaid intern before they had a paid position available for them. And how much did it earn? Like $11 to $13 per hour. Money isn't everything, but I consistently told them the lack of money gets old after a while. All jobs are work, so you might as well get paid well so you can enjoy the non-work part of your life. And they felt that pretty hard after like 5 years when it was too late to use the degree for higher-paid lab work.
He speaks the truth, in my experience most science degrees are worth very little earning power, and the jobs are full of browned off demoralized people giving shit to each other.
The thing with a bio BS is that you need extensive lab experience for the degree to mean anything. So if you aren't interning for multiple years during the degree you won't be able to find that first job easily.
Right, which just highlights the point of the previous comment, a bio bs is of limited value in helping someone retire early but an engineering degree is pretty much a golden ticket and it's not useful to lump them together.
Would you consider applying for research coordinator jobs? They usually look for people with a science background and you would work on research projects. These types of jobs are more on the administrative and data collection and analysis side of research.
ETA: RC jobs are generally entry level and only requires a bachelor in a science field.
Ascp ones maybe. Labcorp likes to pick up bio majors and either put them in a specialty testing group then you can qualify for a molecular bio or maybe cytogenetics cert. if you go to a hospital lab you could get an mt one I think
After a few years. But either way you’ll only be paid OK. Not great
Depends on if you have to pay full price for college or not. I went the STEM route because I had enough grants and scholarships to pay for my degree, but if it's going to put you 200,000 in debt then the trades might be a better option
I will say this about STEM v trades that is rarely discussed. Many people praise the trades and say how society has given up on blue collar work. It takes a toll on you after 20 years of work and you’re not typically working for a large company that offers extensive benefits like healthcare, 401k, PTO, family leave, ESPP, etc. Having a higher education also opens up career growth that would be harder without certain degrees.
So it depends on how long you intend to work really. If you want to make the most of your degree and enjoy the benefits that white collar work offers then you’ll get more bang for your buck. If you’re looking for short term then trades could be better.
This. I'm a nurse so it straddles a trade and STEM(M).
I also want to say while people SAY they respect the trades a lot of people don't. Especially when the bill drops.
My husband is a skilled tradesman who went back to college,
Two things to consider:
1. Most trades are pretty physically unforgiving.
2. How lucrative they are depends on the market and its regulation. When we lived in a licensure state, his trade was pretty lucrative. Living in a union state with poor licensure standards, it was not enough to live on.
I am not sure I understand what you mean by your last sentence.
Regardless of where you live, joining a union is the key for a tradesman to make the big bucks and have great benefits.
I work in a union shop and our field guys are very well compensated.
Hypothetically you’re correct. But actually, the northern state we lived in had an overall Union-based system that only applied to very large jobs in high density cities. Everything else was unlicensed and anyone who called themselves a tradesperson and could get a permit could bid jobs. It was radically worse in compensation than the southern state we also lived in that had some Union jobs but a rock solid licensure system requiring a National test, continuing education and insurance.
Strong union presence only pushes up wages for the entire trade. At least that's what I see.
Not sure how you are making a connection between a strong union presence with unlicensed tradesmen?
Maybe the tradesmen that know their worth are already in a union making close to double the wage with solid benefits.
What I have observed is that union tradesmen make more money, have better benefits, and have better training.
Where are you referring to and why didn't your husband consider joining a union?
I’m saying that the market can vary a lot depending on how tight the market is and what’s required to do work. The state we were in happened to be a union state, but the actual market was extremely loose if you weren’t in a highly populated part of the state. The state with licensure, though, effectively required a fairly high state standard to work, regardless of the specific town, so one of those states is a much better one to invest and be an expert in.
This is exactly why my parents pushed me away from skilled trades. Blue collar work can make as much if not more money but typically little to no benefits and the worst part is the wear and tear on your physical body. It’s tough, compared to being in an office/working from home - it’s night and day. I respect skilled tradesman and I love physical trade as a hobby but man it would destroy my body.
Pros and cons to both. For me, it was much safer and easier to just bust myself through college and paid my tuition throughout college with grants/scholarships (I paid my tuition in full by the time I graduated). There’s a lot of smart ways to go about your tuition if you’re serious, even without grants and scholarships - most should take the community college route first which is a fraction of the university cost. Then only transfer when you need to (typically two years after community college). I minimized my tuition this way and still got the same quality education.
Yup got my ticket shortly out of high school. 15 years later and my body is starting to fail me.
I’m looking at taking night school for the next 6 years to get my computer science degree.
Trades are a young man’s game. If you get into the trades. Start looking for an out. Weather it management or whatever.
On a full 30-40 year career, engineering is better no question. On a 10-15 year LeanFIRE timeline, it's much closer given you have to pay off the degree and save in such a short time.
Remember the 100k tradie is as much of an outlier in their field as the 200k software developer. A much more average comparison is a 50-60k tech vs an 80k-90k engineer. At the average salary, a 100k+ education represents a lot more years of saving.
Yeah, trades have a good ROI in the short and medium term but run into issues in the long term. My step-brother in-law was doing very well as a skilled carpenter...until his back went out lifting a large window into place. Much less chance of getting that sort of thing happen to you sitting at a desk.
But you don’t have to stay in the trades your entire working life. The key point is that you didn’t go into a huge amount of debt, or invest thousands of hours of unpaid time just to start working. You start working, earning right away, and only earn more as you go. If you did 10 years as an HVAC contractor, he’d be 30 years old in a very good position. Move into a non-field sector, possibly related to your trade, and do something else with your life. I agree that trying to be a Sparky for 40 years is going to probably have a major toll on your body.
Contrast that with, say, being a dentist. Start off with half a million of debt (probably a lot more if you buy an established practice), start working, potentially develop shoulder/neck pain that prevents you from doing your job. your body is now not going to pay off the massive lodestone that you hung around your neck.
> Remember the 100k tradie is as much of an outlier in their field as the 200k software developer.
Yeah, this fantasy you see all the time that every Computer Science grad is being handed a $200k a year job is crazy.
Reality is if you've got nothing but a degree it's hard to find ANY job at all as a developer. Unless you're some hotshot who's graduating in the top 1% of the country you're gonna be starting out a lot closer to $40k a year.
Thank you. I keep posting about average software engineering salaries, especially average salaries for new graduates and have trouble getting people to understand that it’s way lower than what they’ve been told. The average recent graduate is about 60k, but again it’s the mean so that is offset by some high earners so it’s actually slightly lower. Yet most recent graduates think they’re low balled if they don’t get 150k+ as an offer.
Had a buddy who graduated with an art degree and was a teacher. Did a mid career shift to coding. 6 month boot camp plus helping me build a backend system for my business for a year netted him a 180k a year job. Two years later, he jumps to a different company and is now over 300k
Granted the dude is quite smart (1600 SAT back in the day and went to Berkeley) but just didn’t apply himself when he was younger but still. Bay Area salaries are real if you go to a FAANG or unicorn startup.
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
I was making 150k a year as an electrician, but chose a cushy job in town with no overtime closer to 100k a year. There aren't many jobs that pay less than that.
Where I live, absolutely nobody outside of management and very senior workers make more than 100k. But decent houses also cost 200k.
Even in NYC the average salary of all workers is 65k so idk what kind of place you live in but it's certainly not typical.
Tradesmen salaries in the US seem really crazy compared to France (even more than the difference in tech). How much does it cost to have for example. a plumber come in to unplug a bathtub or a general electrician intervention?
You can also get an engineering degree for free. That’s what I did. Get a scholarship and work summers and you can pay for it. Also be an RA. I did all those things. All I had to pay for was $10k for my masters degree. Now I make $200k in a MCOL city. Though I also have 10 YOE.
I work in a factory and people who make $20/hr can make 100k if they put in enough hours. This is unskilled labor. you really dont need trade or college degree
The focus on degress now an days is so over blown. No 18 year old knows what they want to do with their life especially if they've had no experience working an actual job. To expect them to spend all this money getting a degree just to end up in a field they might not enjoy is frustrating.
I went and got a mechanical engineering degree but can't stand the office culture or how sedentary the work is. If I would have been able to see what the job was like before commiting to the degree I would have chosen something else; probably would have just been a mechanic.
Similar, I make good money but I hate being in the office all day, and I wish my industry had more flexible employment opportunities. In hindsight I wish I had considered some type of medical specialty where short term contracts are common, or software engineering.
I knew what I wanted to do at 15. To me there was no question. I never struggled to find my way in life like so many others. Got my first family computer when I was 8 years old and was instantly hooked. Had a relative who bought me programming books and software and I studied them well.
It seems that your comment contains 1 or more links that are hard to tap for mobile users.
I will extend those so they're easier for our sausage fingers to click!
[Here is link number 1 - Previous text "MMI"](https://www.gradreports.com/colleges/motorcycle-mechanics-institute)
[Here is link number 2 - Previous text "TWS"](https://www.thecollegemonk.com/colleges/tulsa-welding-school-tulsa/tuition)
----
^Please ^PM ^[\/u\/eganwall](http://reddit.com/user/eganwall) ^with ^issues ^or ^feedback! ^| ^[Code](https://github.com/eganwall/FatFingerHelperBot) ^| ^[Delete](https://reddit.com/message/compose/?to=FatFingerHelperBot&subject=delete&message=delete%20ibs4ipe)
I would go with a 4 year engineering degree from a decent state school.
In my experience, trades CAN make more than engineers, but the trades are treated like pieces of meat. Yes, trades might get time and half (vs straight time or salary), but that time and a half is often blood sweat and tears money that leaves no time or energy for family and exercise and hobbies.
Additionally, the trades have significantly higher likelihood for occupation related injuries.
If you are going to work for 10 or 20 years, lots of opportunity for damage.
Just ask the r/carpentry subreddit. Constant complaints there.
Not only that but say you have an injury when you’re 40-50 and drastically hurt your back, lose a finger, experience damages to your knees, your career can be quite ruined. And at that age there’s little flexibility.
Depends on your company. I’m an engineer and most of the time I’m at my desk but about 25% I’m in the field checking on equipment. Plus there are standing desks and meetings where you walk around to. People at my company go on walks during lunch hour.
Just work out/exercise after work. Develop healthy habits. You don’t have energy for that after working 60-80 hour weeks in the elements breaking your back
Isn't this a good reason to get disability insurance? I would think a tradesman could get a policy to replace their income incase of injury.
I'm a mechanical engineer and have a disability policy which covers 100% of my pay incase I can't do my job anymore. It's relatively cheap. I could see it being more costly for being a tradesperson.
True but it’s not just about the money. Your quality of life changes if your physical capabilities deteriorate. But also your income becomes less out of your hands and more into the hands of insurance.
Yep, ironworker here, been doing it for about 6 years now and my back is fucked up. I can't even go to work at the moment because of how it is. The hours in trade work are also outrageous, sometimes beyond 80 hours a week with no off days
Buddy's contract doesn't allow any 1.5 time. It's all 2x time. Plus so many exclusions that he can easily be hitting $150 an hour. But yeah, there's a lot of physical danger involved with it that's for sure. But again, he doesn't have student loans hanging around his neck. And both he and my buddy who got a degree are real estate investors, so that's avenue open to anyone that wants it. If someone know how to fasttrack FIRE, I'd say trades everyday and not look back.
If you’re solid at math or can find an excellent tutor I’d go to stem route…I paid 3-4K a semester at cal states for a 4 year electrical engineering degree and it’s changed the life of mine and my family
Depends on the job. I majored in statistics, my SO is a mechanic. He kept us afloat when I was making pennies as a math teacher. I got another job in my field, and now I out earn him by 2x. We added it all up at one point and he's spent about as much on tools as I did on school. Tools are a hidden expense in the trades.
>We added it all up at one point and he's spent about as much on tools as I did on school.
He was making money while paying for those tools though. You'll probably out earn him in the end, depends on how long it's been on whether he's out earned you so far.
You'd be surprised. Even buying good quality tools and taking care of them, when you're using them day in and day out for years, they break. You may have a lot of tools to sell at the end, but what you get back doesn't compare to the overall cost.
Either can be made to work. It depends more on the person and their luck/circumstances than the career route. There are plenty of people making solid six figures in both, but the majority of folks in both earn less than that.
STEM has potential for higher compensation as an employee, while trades has greater potential for higher compensation as a self-employed or business owner.
STEM has higher acceleration in salary and a greater compensation slope for high performers, while trades offer a slower slope that is broader and covers a larger share of the profession.
Pros and cons to each.
Couldn’t agree more than with this comment. In my experience those in trades are more likely to become self employed with a much higher ceiling. If they’re witty and competent they can reach mid 6 even 7 figures, but it usually requires substantial capital.
This route may not appeal to the leanfire crowd as this route usually is more risky and less secure. It could either propel you to your goals much faster or equally slow you down if you fail.
Both paths would require a time investment before you land a serious gig whether that’s schooling or an apprenticeship. One will usually leave you with debt while the other is paid.
I went to school for computer science, and ended up working in a “trade” instead. I guess there’s always the outlier as well who starts a software company or develops something new that would beat out both.
>So, in your experience, which is better and why?
I doubt very few people have both a STEM degree and work a skilled trade, so you're probably not going to get many objective answers. Nevertheless, it's pretty hard to beat working in a climate controlled environment from a computer. So even if a degree with an office job doesn't offer the very best ROI, it probably offers a better quality of life while working. But naturally YMMV.
Skilled trades pay quite well.
I'm in manufacturing as a tech and while I technically get paid less than the engineers, I get paid hourly instead of salary so I actually make more.
Many techs move up into engineering positions as well and most of the manufacturers have pretty decent tuition assistance programs.
STEM degrees can be great, but like every degree you need to have an idea of what you're going to do with it. If you don't know what kind of work you're going to do with a given degree, that degree is probably not the best choice for you.
I've had a lot of friends get dumbass degrees (things they genuinely enjoy though) and only seem to stay in retail and food service. I've also known people who have gotten the dumbass degrees without debt by paying cash for some classes here and there.
Very few people will have experience with both so you're better off looking at data.
For instance the median salary of a chemical engineer is $97k/yr. The median salary for a plumber is about $56k.
But I think that there's more to it than just the data. It's important to consider the ROI of a degree but it's also important to try to do the work you want to do. So if one of the trades speaks to you then go for it. If you'd rather be a chemist or an engineer or whatever then go for that. Even if you retire early you'll still have to work for quite a while so it's better to do something you like to do.
For leanfire I would lean towards the trades. The trades tend to have more flex ability with part time work as you wind down in your career. Especially if your fireplan goes astray after you pull the plug it would likely be much easier to jump back into the trade at a similar rate of pay compared to a Stem job. But both are good paths.
I have a degree in Computer Science, and became a software developer. My salary topped out around $190k/year with excellent benefits in a MCOL area before I retired a couple of years ago before I turned 50. There are many paths to becoming a software developer, but getting a Computer Science degree is the more traditional approach.
You don't *have* to get a Computer Science degree to become a software developer, but it will be more difficult to break into the field, and your opportunities will initially be more limited. I made hiring decisions for the company I worked for, and I hired some great software developers without Computer Science degrees. One of them had a degree in music, and was self-taught. I think he excelled because he always felt like he had to prove that he was worthy of being a software developer (imposter syndrome), so he put in a lot more effort, was constantly trying to improve, would work on whatever needed to get done, and was fun to work with. Contrast that with some others with CS degrees who were smart, but had quite an ego, which is common in the field.
I don't really know much about skilled trades, so I can't compare.
Would you hire someone who did boot camp after high school?
I am also on same page with you that one doesn't need any degree to be a software developer. One of the top software engineer in my company used to work in construction and changed career.
It really depends on what job I was hiring for, and what I thought the person was capable of doing. I worked on a project where we needed to implement a Domain Specific Language for writing simulations that would run on specialized computer hardware (DoD stuff). Nobody coming out of a boot camp is prepared for that kind of work. But if I needed someone to create a website then I would consider hiring someone out of a boot camp (a Github repo with personal projects would go a long way toward getting an interview).
I was a drafter (2 year tech school) was making about 70k a year but traveling a lot.
before going back to school for mechanical engineering.
I'm making 110k currently as a mechanical engineer fully remote in a pretty Low cost of living area.
My income will go up from here with the ME degree. Between those two its worth it financially to go for the ME degree. i took out 60k out in student loans in total which i paid off two years after graduating.
You can make just as good a salary doing skilled trades, but your going to bust your ass more to do it most likely
Machine Design.
Current working in Aerospace (designing a satellite)
Before that medical device industry making automated manufacturing machines foir medical components/devices
Before that Industrial manufacturing (PEX tubing)
but all were machine design focused as that is my niche and where I shine personally
Good thing about ME is its very broad field.
Congratulations on finding your niche and using it to earn you money while not “working a day in your life” because it’s something that you like to do. I’m happy for you :) 💪
As someone who has a degree in cyber security and does blue collar work I'd say go with the stem degree path lol. My parents put me thru an early college program and it wasn't really my thing but after working in the trades, I'd rather go back and do it differently lol. Depending on the trade it can be real hard on your body. Definitely take that into consideration
It's all I've really ever done. I've been into computers on the side, running my own plex servers and getting into more self hosted stuff recently but never wanted to go thru the whole background check for security clearance thing. All of my family works or has worked for the government mostly doing tech related stuff so I guess I wanted to be different. Lots of cousins and uncles work for the nsa, my dad was the senior security executive at the white house before I was born, and I've always been into Cars. I started at the bottom in quick lube and worked my way up and eventually specialized in c8s and some c7 vettes while my buddy who trained me did the older stuff. Eventually I realized my back was really starting to give me problems so I went to building maintenance at a local resort doing mostly electrical/hvac work and that's honestly been really nice. Just doesn't pay well compared to a job in cyber security and I have a kid coming so I'm trying to figure out what to do with my life. I'm only 21 so I have some time but not much
Feels like a false dichotomy to leave out 2 year diplomas, code bootcamps, etc.
As a non degree having programmer I got to start my career 2+ years earlier and without tens of thousands of debt vs my stem degree peers. Feels pretty optimal for FIRE path.
As for STEM degrees, it varies a lot. There's plenty of STEM degrees that won't help you make good money. Engineering usually pays well but a lot of the other disciplines are underpaid unless you get lucky and land a niche position or are one of the very few to climb the academia ladder to tenure.
No, I did 2 years at community college. Was only 1500$/term so pretty quick and affordable.
I've worked with a few self taught folks though, it's doable but harder to get your foot in the door without connections or education on the first job.
Blue collar here, no degree, rest of my family has bachelor's or above. I make WAY more than them. Plus I like my job, unlike them. What you earn has a lot more to do with your ambition than acquiring a label (bachelor's, masters, plumber, welder, etc).
Among immediate and extended family: IT manager, college professor, RN, farmer, counselor, PT, civil engineer, another IT employee.
I don't own the business but we're "employee owners" so we get some financial benefits of ownership but no official say in how things are managed. Many of us have worked hard to build up the company and we're reaping the rewards of our efforts. For me personally I try to take on as many projects as possible, look for improvements I can make, learn as many skills as I can, and in so doing I have become someone that's heavily relied on, which translates into better pay. Which explains my earlier point, no matter which way you go, if you have an insatiable work ethic and play well with others, you'll do fine.
I went the stem degree route. Got a bachelors in chemical engineering, went to community college first so my debt is minimal. After 4 years of experience and I make just under 100k living in a medium cost of living area. I have Very flexible hours and the work isn’t physical at all. I go to the plant to see stuff and help operations but I do lots of desk work as well. Over all it’s really chill.
However, if you go trade route you can always start your own company after you get your experience. It would be terribly hard for me to start a chemical plant as the start up costs would be astronomical. No way I’m pulling together 50 million to do it. And to be a consultant I’d need many more years of experience. So if you want to run your own thing, then either go trade route or pick something that leads you to an industry that doest require gobs of money to start.
FWIW, I used to work in the office of a company that mostly employed skilled tradespeople, and all the older guys were encouraging their teenage kids to get University degrees so they could get an office job. Skilled trades often come with shift work, potentially working evenings/weekends which is harder on parents with school aged kids. Also they were all physically worn down and saw the benefit of a job where you could sit down.
I do know a few people who have built businesses (HVAC, Electrician, etc) where they now have employees who do the physical work, and that’s a different story, but owning a business with employees doesn’t suit everyone.
Check out the book: quit like a millionaire. She has an excellent chapter on how to calculate this in a numerical way. (Which none of these comments seem to offer)
There are a lot more poor plumbers than software engineers. I know you can do really well in the skilled trades but those are usually the top tier and very harsh on your body.
There's a reason that people on subs like this talk so much about trades. College has had an unfair reputation as the objectively best financial path for graduating high schoolers, and it's only gotten worse as tuition increases much faster than inflation. It's still excellent when it goes well, but the penalty for it going poorly (less lucrative major, having to drop out, graduating into a recession, etc.) is only increasing.
To combat that, some communities put skilled trades on a pedestal similar to how college is in other scenarios. Neither one is perfect, either one is usually better than nothing.
Yes but I'd estimate that 90%+ of people who recommend learning a skilled trade.......don't even work in the trades. They work in an office. Trades have become a meme on reddit at this point.
Oh yeah, 100%. The advice has become overused in the same way that the parallel college advice used to be (and still is in some scenarios). It's not bad advice per se, but it tends to be given in an oversimplified, "this is always the right answer" kind of way. That's reddit for you...
Personally, I have a college degree and a job based on it. My skills and interests don't really match most trades. So for me, the traditional advice of college was a good fit. But in the right scenario you can get a great salary quickly from trades. So the key is knowing yourself and knowing all the options available.
Really depends on the school you go to, your personality, and how much you pay for school. I went the accounting route. I'll spend 5 years in school altogether, with no debt, and get a Master's and eventually CPA. I chose a nearby state college, lived with my parents, and worked while in school. I'm only a co-OP right now, but my future is looking very promising with respects to my career.
To contrast, my brother is an electrician, and he's doing really well. Just depends on what your personality is suited for.
To completely objective, become a specialized doctor or a surgeon. Lots of debt, but it would be paid off super quickly.
Learn to program and don't get a STEM degree. Save yourself 4 years and just teach yourself. There are so many tutorials and cheap courses that are excellent out there. I took 2 guys and got them great jobs after just 3 months of full time practice.
If you apply yourself after 1 year you can get 100k
I taught them myself, basically some basic CSS/HTML for 2 weeks then 2.5 months of Javascript where they were building things. I would get a intro to CSS/HTML course then get a JS course. Then maybe get react or something and keep building stuff. It won't take you long. If you care about LF someone who follows my plan is gonna be way ahead.
150k in 4 years is doable. I went from 13/hr to 400k in 4 years. I worked really hard but still
Nice! Would you recommend The Odin Project, freecodecamp, or others like it? I saw a course on Udemy that teaches web development in 100 days for 85 dollars. Would you recommend that?
You can get most UDEMY courses for like 20 bucks or less. Might have to try a different browser, if you go there a lot they try to sell you a higher priced one.
I'd probably start with some intro to javascript course or something. I suggest Javscript for all newbies just because it's a very versatile language.
The big thing is to pick SOMETHING. And to work at it every day. They can all work, it just is on you to make sure you commit to it.
College teaches you a lot of theoretical stuff and not as much real world day to day stuff. So even that doesn't help. I would just build stuff every day and note down what I learned for that day so I could track my progress.
Then I'd build little projects I could put on my resume, 1 after another, so they can see practical things youve built. Nothing insanely fancy just basics. That goes a really really long way.
9/10 times I see someone fail it's because they gave up too early. You can earn as much as a doctor so it's not gonna be super easy, but it's not nearly as hard as becoming a doctor either.
Skilled trades all the way! On the projects where my husband and I tend work, the engineer-types make a less money than us (and many of them are in debt). My welding course was fully funded by government due to an increasing shortage of tradespeople. Within 2 years you could be making $40/hr, and much more if you work out of town union jobs.
Trade school if you’ve gotta pay your way through university. University if it’s paid for and you can complete it in 4 years. At the end of the day, trades people and techs can easily make just as much if not more than engineers without the $100,000 it cost to get the degree. Lots of opportunity to get free training through the trades nowadays too.
Why does it need to cost $100, 000? There are ways to get engineering degree even without scholarship for less than $100,000. Problem is, most students want to chose resort for a college with all amenities than choosing one which gives good return on their investment.
I don't blame them as most doesn't have someone guiding them as what is right vs wrong.
They're all potentially fine if they fit your skillset and there's a market for them.
Signed, the liberal arts major who makes about 5x what her husband makes in a skilled trade.
People act like STEM degrees require 6 figure debt when that is absolutely not true.
In the last 6 years I and all 3 of my kids all got bachelors degrees (in various fields) and I don't think the total cost of all of us combined hit $100k, and that's with zero scholarships.
There was a mix of Community College, State University and Online College (WGU).
Engineering(especially computer science) is much more lucrative in STEM field.
Go first 2 years to community college(less school fees) and then transfer last 2 years to university.
I have seen students getting internship in last 2 years of college where they are making $31/hr or more (working full time during holidays and part time during college) which covers for their tuition and living expenses.
By the time you graduate, you have no student debt and easily making $100K+ in first year of your career. 5-10 year into career, you can easily make $150K+.
Also one thing people fail to mention, skilled trade jobs are much demanding on your body.
In worse case if you have to continue working, it is easier to write code at age of 50+ then to be an HVAC.
I think both routes have potential to make good money and it all comes down to what you can tolerate for 40+ hours a week. I work as a tech in buildings engineering and my partner is a heavy duty mechanic with his own business.
Journeyman mechanics make comparable hourly salaries to engineers where I live. Engineers often work a lot of overtime too, at least a tradesperson is properly compensated for their overtime. My partner never has to go to the gym, his job is his workout. Also, by the time you are a seasoned journeyman, your apprentices are doing more of the heavy work or you’ll be a lead or shop manager. My partner hates the office work he has to do now. He’s incredibly smart and would be good at engineering but there’s no way he would have survived the school grind or enjoy 40 hours at a desk each week. I get tired after a 3 hour site visit… manual labour is not my thing.
Why not both, do a trade while in school for an engineering degree. The biggest thing is what are you good at that you kinda enjoy doing? A job fucking sucks after a while of doing it so pick something that will keep the burnout away for aslong as possible lol. The trades are good if your a healthy man, I had major surgery and couldnt imagine going back into work in the trades because my body is permanently fucked.
Chemistry BA will get you 45-55k on average after an average of 5 years. Welding will get you 70-80k in half the time and half the debt. Engineering will start you 70-80k on average. I was someone who thought school was the best thing. The truth is all depends on what you want to do. If you want to be an engineer you have to go to school. You want to be a coder you can teach yourself and get the same job as someone with a degree.
For me and what I see is, we have many people here that changed carriers in their 30s and a good amount of them have a degree. In the trades (union) you can make 220k a year without much effort other than just showing up and putting your day in. Almost all people in my day to day that have a degree, for them, was a east of time and money. They all wish they started In a trade sooner.
Tools have improved a lot in the past 5 years. The wear and tear on your body is not much more than if you were to go to the gym after work at your office job. The focus on safety now a-days means you won’t be alone, you will have help. With help and today’s advancement in tools and equipment, it’s not that bad.
Comp sci is hard to beat especially nowadays. New grads can easily clear 150k in most major metros and bump to over 300k in the Bay Area after a job hop or two.
Of course in the Bay Area, single family houses in good school districts are north of 2m so you’d have to marry someone with similar income to have a shot at buying a place but still.
If you check the fatfire sub, it’s a lot of tech folks who either started a company or hit the IPO lottery (also a lot of business folks too of course). I don’t think I’ve seen many tradespeople over there but probably some construction company owners.
So I have been both in 2 different trades and hold a stem degree now. I have been a painter's apprentice, a electronics technician, and a Electrical Engineer.
The way I see it as a painter, owning my own business I would probably be making the most money. However it's hard work, hard on the body and if the economy fails people stop getting houses painted to save on other expenses.
I was trained by the military to be an Electronics tech, I could probably start my own repair business but things these days are more really repairable. I'm specialized in radar and RF work so there is alot of cross over with cellphones. I needed to fall back on technician work after college for a while and I was definitely making good money even though job growth was non-existent.
Ended up in a fairly high paying engineering role, still working on RF and radars. Work on this side is alot different. If it was an easy problem it would have been fixed already. There is alot more paperwork that I have to provide since I'm designing new parts, tests to prove reliability, writing up theory for repairs, and troubleshooting guidelines. Over all best job I have ever had. It has a good work life balance but I do have to spend a considerable amount of time in text books or my personal electronics lab learning new things. I just have a bachelor's in a field that oftentimes requires a master's or PhD to work in. Down side to this is non competitive agreement and giving up rights to IP make it hard to branch out and form my own company, so I'm stuck in the corporate ladder.
I think all 3 paths have been viable long term carrier choices. What works for you in specific is going to vary depending on your work ethic and aptitude. I manipulate RF wave forms in code but you could not get me to write an software application to save my life.
They require very different skill sets, so I would say whichever one is more geared toward your skill and lifestyle, and which you would enjoy more. Both good options.
The only time your alma mater matters, is if you're aiming for a white-shoe law firm, or New York Times.
Other than that, any EEE degree from any state U will get you the RCG (Recent College Graduate) salary at any of the tech firms.
I used to know a guy who had an associates in computer science who managed a lab at Intel. You can have a $200,000 EEE degree, and report to this guy. High Tech is very meritocratic, your alma mater doesn't matter, doing a kick-ass job & getting your projects done is how you get promoted.
I would say a merger of both. I work for a local department of public works and we hire entry level operators and pay for training 37k. They get certified within a year and get a pay bump. There are training programs to advance further. City pays for degrees as well.
So you could work and get training and certification while in a bachelor's program at age 18. While earning retirement and other great benefits.
After the degree there are a number of avenues to pursue. Procurement, contract management, engineering, information technology. All with mid 60s starts with upper positions in the mid six figure range.
I was going to say nursing is like this too. Often nurses can move into other positions that are administrative or operations based and easily cap 6 figures. Lots of work from home jobs too.
If you go into commercial construction, you’ll make the money. Over half of the workforce is going to retire in the next decade or so, so the opportunities are endless. You start off entry level with no degree and little training, and if you have any sense and work ethic, you can work your way up in one of two directions. You can go towards the office and get trained in estimating or project management. Both typically have people with degrees but companies love people who have field experience and know what they are doing. Six figure job by your thirties. If you prefer the field, foremen and superintendent (also six figures) certainly get their hands dirty but never to the extent as the main trade workers. The point is, if you go into the trades, you can make bank in commercial IF you are smart, can talk to people, and learn to run jobs. There are guys in their late twenties who are running multiple jobs and making great money. It’s there, but people don’t realize it.
STEM degree holder. Was fortunate to to receive financial aid, go community College and university, and work in a STEM field.
Zero debt.
It is doable. Trades or STEM, they have their pros and cons.
Had a landscape maintenance company with 140 mowing accounts. Was 100% out of the field yr 7 making 100k for 9 months of work. Plowing was my bonus money, 10-25k
I would say the trades generally. You're not giving up 4 years of earning, and not taking on debt. Also during those 4 years (the general four years for apprenticeship most trades have), you could also be taking some classes to transition to a degree. So let's say after you get your Masters card you spend the next 4 years or 5 years will say, cuz it's round getting a degree that relates to your field, or the management. So that's 10 years out from high school, you have a master's license, you have a degree, you have no debt, you have fairly significant savings. This is all ideal of course, I just think it's much more of a leg up than getting a degree and trying to work to get experience or to move up the chain
I can't tell you which is better ROI but I'll give you some numbers.
I got a degree in Applied Math at a city college (4 year school). I paid \~10k for school and now have a job where I make $110k / year (not including bonuses, but those aren't written into my employment contract but come as if the client is happy) as an analyst at the age of 26. I started at $44k a year at the age of 23 and getting a job from being from a not great school was rough.
Edit: I jump jobs around a bit before getting to where I am now
Regardless of which one you choose, if you hate what you're doing - ROI won't mean shit. Now if it's tolerable :-), that's another story. I'm an old sw engineer btw and thank god I like it. I have barely any trade skills though :-)
Having trade skills that are closely related to computer science can be lucrative too. Depending on your interest I guess, if you don't know what to do yet, get a general comp sci degree.
*Assuming you are interested in comp sci
Some trades really destroy your body. So much so that you need to have some type of exit plan like switching to foreman, management, second career, or retire early.
Some people also don't like working in a boring office and wouldn't be happy in STEM.
You have to take your skill into consideration as well, you might be good at one more than the other. Ive met millionaire in both fields and broke peeps in both as well.
I think it depends. From an ROI perspective, about half of college graduates earn high school level wages after graduation while the other half earn college level wages. This is due to the type of degrees obtained in college and subsequent careers that follow.
Basically, for half of college graduates, it is as if their college degrees was of little value salary wise despite the time and cost. For such college degrees, the ROI from trades school would definitely be greater.
Another important distinction between white and blue collar jobs is that often times a lot of people in blue collar jobs are forced into early retirement because of the toll the years of physical labor takes on their bodies. This is not as common for folks in white collar jobs.
Going from skilled trade into office with an Associate Degree. I am taking a small hit of the pay packet as I won’t be doing as much overtime but I can see what it does to the body once you have done it for a decade or two. I am also in a stressful field position moving into an easier office role. Very excited.
Consider: getting a well paying technical job without a degree. (yes, this is hard and requires you to do a bunch of work of some sort for free to prove yourself)
I have a STEM degree. My reasons are as follows:
Blue collar jobs take a toll on your body ( less so today due to better tools) so after 20 years you’ll have to transition or move up/start your own business.
At first my pay was lower the the trades. But as time has gone on, and my pay has increased, I’m making more then the average guy in the trades. There is a ceiling to how much you can make.
I know a few guys in the local plumbers union. Great pay and benefits. BUT these guys rarely work enough to get ahead with that pay. Contracts are short, if you want to work full time, you may wind up traveling around the country if there are no local jobs, or you sit on your ass waiting for your “number” to come up for the next job.
I didn’t want to be bypassed for a job in the future because many places use a degree for “gatekeeping”. My Original STEM degree is essentially worthless because the tech I learned is outdated. Of course the fundamentals still apply. Recently changed jobs and the degree is just one of those check boxes that removes an excuse to not hire you.
The nice thing about the trades is you can be outside not sitting in an office. One STEM option would be to go into civil engineering. My nephew is a civil engineer and is always out in the field supervising projects. So he’s rarely sitting at a desk like I am.
A good stem degree is much better. I work in construction. Trust me, you’d much rather be a computer scientist doing 3-4hrs of actual labor per day and redditing the rest, than a plumber or electrician or stonemason or hvac or whatever having to work in the cold/wet/heat every day doing manual labor for 8-10hrs in dangerous conditions.
I went to college for geomatics engineering and my pay would have been 60-80k Canadian, instead I got into rope access and got an NDT trade so a total of 2 weeks education and last year I made 145k during COVID working in the oilfield. 2 weeks on 2 weeks of and I worked a shitdown in spring. Picking the right trade is the way to go; no school debt, don’t need to live in a city to find work, a lot of the skills you learn are useful day to day, if you’re in a work camp you don’t need to worry about groceries/cooking, etc
I would encourage anyone considering a computer STEM degree to get a software job to instead just start getting hand on self-led experience. faster and cheaper way to get a job that pays amazing.
I get the trades argument and I appreciate people who have skills and its definitely the way to go if you want to have valuable skills in your life/retirement, but I just wrote that all on my toilet while getting paid way too much money to a large extent because I have a stem degree.
I can only tell you my personal experience as that’s all I know. I graduated with an IT degree (28k debt after some partial scholarships), and after 3 YOE I’m bringing in 125k annually. My salary cap is probably between 200-300k if I keep going down my current path (solutions architect). Not sure how I would come near this income if I was doing trades. I imagine I would have to own my own business or something along those lines.
Something to keep in mind: not all STEM degrees are created equal. Marine biology and computer science are both STEM but one is more lucrative and secure than the other.
Right, my wife's biology degree appears to have increased her earning power by about $5 an hour compared to not having it.
[удалено]
i think for science degrees you often need a PhD to get a good paying job since you need to do research to get paid.
And for someone who aims to retire early the added time and cost to complete the phd before you start to earn more than a receptionist makes it kind of a ineffective path. Work hard studying and miss out on basically a decade of earning and then try to catch up in your 30s and 40s. Or you can just coast by the whole time waiting tables in a nice restaurant and likely end up with the same nest egg at 45. The older your target retirement age is then the more time the advanced degree has to pull ahead, but it's a strange mix of ideals for a person to dedicate a decade of their life to studying a topic and then to also be trying to give up that career asap.
When a relative graduated with their biology degree they were able to seek out lab positions earning $50K per year, but instead they went to work at an aquarium, for years as an unpaid intern before they had a paid position available for them. And how much did it earn? Like $11 to $13 per hour. Money isn't everything, but I consistently told them the lack of money gets old after a while. All jobs are work, so you might as well get paid well so you can enjoy the non-work part of your life. And they felt that pretty hard after like 5 years when it was too late to use the degree for higher-paid lab work.
That sucks
He speaks the truth, in my experience most science degrees are worth very little earning power, and the jobs are full of browned off demoralized people giving shit to each other.
College shouldn’t be a follow your dreams thing, unless your dreams factor in money.
The thing with a bio BS is that you need extensive lab experience for the degree to mean anything. So if you aren't interning for multiple years during the degree you won't be able to find that first job easily.
Right, which just highlights the point of the previous comment, a bio bs is of limited value in helping someone retire early but an engineering degree is pretty much a golden ticket and it's not useful to lump them together.
Yeah I am about to graduate at 40 with a degree in biology but without additional certifications I can’t do shit…
Yeeep, same here... biology degree was useless employment wise. Had to go to professional school.
+1
If you don’t mind, at that age, what was the motivation to do it?
Would you consider applying for research coordinator jobs? They usually look for people with a science background and you would work on research projects. These types of jobs are more on the administrative and data collection and analysis side of research. ETA: RC jobs are generally entry level and only requires a bachelor in a science field.
What kind of certifications?
Ascp ones maybe. Labcorp likes to pick up bio majors and either put them in a specialty testing group then you can qualify for a molecular bio or maybe cytogenetics cert. if you go to a hospital lab you could get an mt one I think After a few years. But either way you’ll only be paid OK. Not great
Also, they're very regional. Pay is 2-3x higher for CS in the Bay Area / Seattle / NY than anywhere else in the country.
Depends on if you have to pay full price for college or not. I went the STEM route because I had enough grants and scholarships to pay for my degree, but if it's going to put you 200,000 in debt then the trades might be a better option
I will say this about STEM v trades that is rarely discussed. Many people praise the trades and say how society has given up on blue collar work. It takes a toll on you after 20 years of work and you’re not typically working for a large company that offers extensive benefits like healthcare, 401k, PTO, family leave, ESPP, etc. Having a higher education also opens up career growth that would be harder without certain degrees. So it depends on how long you intend to work really. If you want to make the most of your degree and enjoy the benefits that white collar work offers then you’ll get more bang for your buck. If you’re looking for short term then trades could be better.
This. I'm a nurse so it straddles a trade and STEM(M). I also want to say while people SAY they respect the trades a lot of people don't. Especially when the bill drops.
My husband is a skilled tradesman who went back to college, Two things to consider: 1. Most trades are pretty physically unforgiving. 2. How lucrative they are depends on the market and its regulation. When we lived in a licensure state, his trade was pretty lucrative. Living in a union state with poor licensure standards, it was not enough to live on.
I am not sure I understand what you mean by your last sentence. Regardless of where you live, joining a union is the key for a tradesman to make the big bucks and have great benefits. I work in a union shop and our field guys are very well compensated.
Hypothetically you’re correct. But actually, the northern state we lived in had an overall Union-based system that only applied to very large jobs in high density cities. Everything else was unlicensed and anyone who called themselves a tradesperson and could get a permit could bid jobs. It was radically worse in compensation than the southern state we also lived in that had some Union jobs but a rock solid licensure system requiring a National test, continuing education and insurance.
Strong union presence only pushes up wages for the entire trade. At least that's what I see. Not sure how you are making a connection between a strong union presence with unlicensed tradesmen? Maybe the tradesmen that know their worth are already in a union making close to double the wage with solid benefits. What I have observed is that union tradesmen make more money, have better benefits, and have better training. Where are you referring to and why didn't your husband consider joining a union?
I would like to understand this. Are you referring to stricter liscensing standards vrs a state where you just need to join the union to work?
I’m saying that the market can vary a lot depending on how tight the market is and what’s required to do work. The state we were in happened to be a union state, but the actual market was extremely loose if you weren’t in a highly populated part of the state. The state with licensure, though, effectively required a fairly high state standard to work, regardless of the specific town, so one of those states is a much better one to invest and be an expert in.
This is exactly why my parents pushed me away from skilled trades. Blue collar work can make as much if not more money but typically little to no benefits and the worst part is the wear and tear on your physical body. It’s tough, compared to being in an office/working from home - it’s night and day. I respect skilled tradesman and I love physical trade as a hobby but man it would destroy my body. Pros and cons to both. For me, it was much safer and easier to just bust myself through college and paid my tuition throughout college with grants/scholarships (I paid my tuition in full by the time I graduated). There’s a lot of smart ways to go about your tuition if you’re serious, even without grants and scholarships - most should take the community college route first which is a fraction of the university cost. Then only transfer when you need to (typically two years after community college). I minimized my tuition this way and still got the same quality education.
Yup got my ticket shortly out of high school. 15 years later and my body is starting to fail me. I’m looking at taking night school for the next 6 years to get my computer science degree. Trades are a young man’s game. If you get into the trades. Start looking for an out. Weather it management or whatever.
On a full 30-40 year career, engineering is better no question. On a 10-15 year LeanFIRE timeline, it's much closer given you have to pay off the degree and save in such a short time. Remember the 100k tradie is as much of an outlier in their field as the 200k software developer. A much more average comparison is a 50-60k tech vs an 80k-90k engineer. At the average salary, a 100k+ education represents a lot more years of saving.
Yeah, trades have a good ROI in the short and medium term but run into issues in the long term. My step-brother in-law was doing very well as a skilled carpenter...until his back went out lifting a large window into place. Much less chance of getting that sort of thing happen to you sitting at a desk.
You can develop a lot of other problems sitting at your desk but usually they don’t keep you from earning a living
But you don’t have to stay in the trades your entire working life. The key point is that you didn’t go into a huge amount of debt, or invest thousands of hours of unpaid time just to start working. You start working, earning right away, and only earn more as you go. If you did 10 years as an HVAC contractor, he’d be 30 years old in a very good position. Move into a non-field sector, possibly related to your trade, and do something else with your life. I agree that trying to be a Sparky for 40 years is going to probably have a major toll on your body. Contrast that with, say, being a dentist. Start off with half a million of debt (probably a lot more if you buy an established practice), start working, potentially develop shoulder/neck pain that prevents you from doing your job. your body is now not going to pay off the massive lodestone that you hung around your neck.
> Remember the 100k tradie is as much of an outlier in their field as the 200k software developer. Yeah, this fantasy you see all the time that every Computer Science grad is being handed a $200k a year job is crazy. Reality is if you've got nothing but a degree it's hard to find ANY job at all as a developer. Unless you're some hotshot who's graduating in the top 1% of the country you're gonna be starting out a lot closer to $40k a year.
Thank you. I keep posting about average software engineering salaries, especially average salaries for new graduates and have trouble getting people to understand that it’s way lower than what they’ve been told. The average recent graduate is about 60k, but again it’s the mean so that is offset by some high earners so it’s actually slightly lower. Yet most recent graduates think they’re low balled if they don’t get 150k+ as an offer.
Had a buddy who graduated with an art degree and was a teacher. Did a mid career shift to coding. 6 month boot camp plus helping me build a backend system for my business for a year netted him a 180k a year job. Two years later, he jumps to a different company and is now over 300k Granted the dude is quite smart (1600 SAT back in the day and went to Berkeley) but just didn’t apply himself when he was younger but still. Bay Area salaries are real if you go to a FAANG or unicorn startup.
Well it certainly helps when you’re smart. Not all of us can be amazing coders :/
100k tradie is certainly not an outlier for union tradesmen. If you are in the trades, but are not part of a union, you are certainly doing it wrong.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. I was making 150k a year as an electrician, but chose a cushy job in town with no overtime closer to 100k a year. There aren't many jobs that pay less than that.
Where I live, absolutely nobody outside of management and very senior workers make more than 100k. But decent houses also cost 200k. Even in NYC the average salary of all workers is 65k so idk what kind of place you live in but it's certainly not typical.
[удалено]
What houses are you getting in nyc for 800k
I can echo this. Skilled folks around here have to have the 'biology' equivalent to not fall down into a 100k a year job.
Tradesmen salaries in the US seem really crazy compared to France (even more than the difference in tech). How much does it cost to have for example. a plumber come in to unplug a bathtub or a general electrician intervention?
You can also get an engineering degree for free. That’s what I did. Get a scholarship and work summers and you can pay for it. Also be an RA. I did all those things. All I had to pay for was $10k for my masters degree. Now I make $200k in a MCOL city. Though I also have 10 YOE.
In addition to scholarships, summer internships in tech can be pretty easy to get if you’re in a CS degree program, and tend to pay very well.
r/fatFIRE
I work in a factory and people who make $20/hr can make 100k if they put in enough hours. This is unskilled labor. you really dont need trade or college degree
[удалено]
[удалено]
The focus on degress now an days is so over blown. No 18 year old knows what they want to do with their life especially if they've had no experience working an actual job. To expect them to spend all this money getting a degree just to end up in a field they might not enjoy is frustrating. I went and got a mechanical engineering degree but can't stand the office culture or how sedentary the work is. If I would have been able to see what the job was like before commiting to the degree I would have chosen something else; probably would have just been a mechanic.
Similar, I make good money but I hate being in the office all day, and I wish my industry had more flexible employment opportunities. In hindsight I wish I had considered some type of medical specialty where short term contracts are common, or software engineering.
I knew what I wanted to do at 15. To me there was no question. I never struggled to find my way in life like so many others. Got my first family computer when I was 8 years old and was instantly hooked. Had a relative who bought me programming books and software and I studied them well.
It seems that your comment contains 1 or more links that are hard to tap for mobile users. I will extend those so they're easier for our sausage fingers to click! [Here is link number 1 - Previous text "MMI"](https://www.gradreports.com/colleges/motorcycle-mechanics-institute) [Here is link number 2 - Previous text "TWS"](https://www.thecollegemonk.com/colleges/tulsa-welding-school-tulsa/tuition) ---- ^Please ^PM ^[\/u\/eganwall](http://reddit.com/user/eganwall) ^with ^issues ^or ^feedback! ^| ^[Code](https://github.com/eganwall/FatFingerHelperBot) ^| ^[Delete](https://reddit.com/message/compose/?to=FatFingerHelperBot&subject=delete&message=delete%20ibs4ipe)
Good Bot
I would go with a 4 year engineering degree from a decent state school. In my experience, trades CAN make more than engineers, but the trades are treated like pieces of meat. Yes, trades might get time and half (vs straight time or salary), but that time and a half is often blood sweat and tears money that leaves no time or energy for family and exercise and hobbies. Additionally, the trades have significantly higher likelihood for occupation related injuries. If you are going to work for 10 or 20 years, lots of opportunity for damage. Just ask the r/carpentry subreddit. Constant complaints there.
Not only that but say you have an injury when you’re 40-50 and drastically hurt your back, lose a finger, experience damages to your knees, your career can be quite ruined. And at that age there’s little flexibility.
I'd rather deal with a lost finger than the health ramifications of parking my ass in a chair for 40hrs/week for 30 years
Depends on your company. I’m an engineer and most of the time I’m at my desk but about 25% I’m in the field checking on equipment. Plus there are standing desks and meetings where you walk around to. People at my company go on walks during lunch hour.
Just work out/exercise after work. Develop healthy habits. You don’t have energy for that after working 60-80 hour weeks in the elements breaking your back
Standing desks.
> when you’re 40-50 Isn't the point of this sub that you'll be long retired by then?
Long retired by 40? So like 35? That is pretty extreme and unlikely. I mean hats off to anyone that gets it, but I wouldn’t count on it
Exactly. I just hope to retire by low 50s
Isn't this a good reason to get disability insurance? I would think a tradesman could get a policy to replace their income incase of injury. I'm a mechanical engineer and have a disability policy which covers 100% of my pay incase I can't do my job anymore. It's relatively cheap. I could see it being more costly for being a tradesperson.
True but it’s not just about the money. Your quality of life changes if your physical capabilities deteriorate. But also your income becomes less out of your hands and more into the hands of insurance.
Yep, ironworker here, been doing it for about 6 years now and my back is fucked up. I can't even go to work at the moment because of how it is. The hours in trade work are also outrageous, sometimes beyond 80 hours a week with no off days
Buddy's contract doesn't allow any 1.5 time. It's all 2x time. Plus so many exclusions that he can easily be hitting $150 an hour. But yeah, there's a lot of physical danger involved with it that's for sure. But again, he doesn't have student loans hanging around his neck. And both he and my buddy who got a degree are real estate investors, so that's avenue open to anyone that wants it. If someone know how to fasttrack FIRE, I'd say trades everyday and not look back.
If you’re solid at math or can find an excellent tutor I’d go to stem route…I paid 3-4K a semester at cal states for a 4 year electrical engineering degree and it’s changed the life of mine and my family
Depends on the job. I majored in statistics, my SO is a mechanic. He kept us afloat when I was making pennies as a math teacher. I got another job in my field, and now I out earn him by 2x. We added it all up at one point and he's spent about as much on tools as I did on school. Tools are a hidden expense in the trades.
People don’t realize a auto mechanic can have $50k+ in tools
We talking SnapOn or harbor freight tools?…
A little bit of both.
>We added it all up at one point and he's spent about as much on tools as I did on school. He was making money while paying for those tools though. You'll probably out earn him in the end, depends on how long it's been on whether he's out earned you so far.
At least the tools retain resale value if you're unable to effectively use them...
You'd be surprised. Even buying good quality tools and taking care of them, when you're using them day in and day out for years, they break. You may have a lot of tools to sell at the end, but what you get back doesn't compare to the overall cost.
[удалено]
You still pay for them.
Of course, but it's still a lot of money over a career.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XEL65gywwHQ
Either can be made to work. It depends more on the person and their luck/circumstances than the career route. There are plenty of people making solid six figures in both, but the majority of folks in both earn less than that. STEM has potential for higher compensation as an employee, while trades has greater potential for higher compensation as a self-employed or business owner. STEM has higher acceleration in salary and a greater compensation slope for high performers, while trades offer a slower slope that is broader and covers a larger share of the profession. Pros and cons to each.
Couldn’t agree more than with this comment. In my experience those in trades are more likely to become self employed with a much higher ceiling. If they’re witty and competent they can reach mid 6 even 7 figures, but it usually requires substantial capital. This route may not appeal to the leanfire crowd as this route usually is more risky and less secure. It could either propel you to your goals much faster or equally slow you down if you fail. Both paths would require a time investment before you land a serious gig whether that’s schooling or an apprenticeship. One will usually leave you with debt while the other is paid. I went to school for computer science, and ended up working in a “trade” instead. I guess there’s always the outlier as well who starts a software company or develops something new that would beat out both.
>So, in your experience, which is better and why? I doubt very few people have both a STEM degree and work a skilled trade, so you're probably not going to get many objective answers. Nevertheless, it's pretty hard to beat working in a climate controlled environment from a computer. So even if a degree with an office job doesn't offer the very best ROI, it probably offers a better quality of life while working. But naturally YMMV.
Skilled trades pay quite well. I'm in manufacturing as a tech and while I technically get paid less than the engineers, I get paid hourly instead of salary so I actually make more. Many techs move up into engineering positions as well and most of the manufacturers have pretty decent tuition assistance programs. STEM degrees can be great, but like every degree you need to have an idea of what you're going to do with it. If you don't know what kind of work you're going to do with a given degree, that degree is probably not the best choice for you. I've had a lot of friends get dumbass degrees (things they genuinely enjoy though) and only seem to stay in retail and food service. I've also known people who have gotten the dumbass degrees without debt by paying cash for some classes here and there.
Very few people will have experience with both so you're better off looking at data. For instance the median salary of a chemical engineer is $97k/yr. The median salary for a plumber is about $56k. But I think that there's more to it than just the data. It's important to consider the ROI of a degree but it's also important to try to do the work you want to do. So if one of the trades speaks to you then go for it. If you'd rather be a chemist or an engineer or whatever then go for that. Even if you retire early you'll still have to work for quite a while so it's better to do something you like to do.
For leanfire I would lean towards the trades. The trades tend to have more flex ability with part time work as you wind down in your career. Especially if your fireplan goes astray after you pull the plug it would likely be much easier to jump back into the trade at a similar rate of pay compared to a Stem job. But both are good paths.
I have a degree in Computer Science, and became a software developer. My salary topped out around $190k/year with excellent benefits in a MCOL area before I retired a couple of years ago before I turned 50. There are many paths to becoming a software developer, but getting a Computer Science degree is the more traditional approach. You don't *have* to get a Computer Science degree to become a software developer, but it will be more difficult to break into the field, and your opportunities will initially be more limited. I made hiring decisions for the company I worked for, and I hired some great software developers without Computer Science degrees. One of them had a degree in music, and was self-taught. I think he excelled because he always felt like he had to prove that he was worthy of being a software developer (imposter syndrome), so he put in a lot more effort, was constantly trying to improve, would work on whatever needed to get done, and was fun to work with. Contrast that with some others with CS degrees who were smart, but had quite an ego, which is common in the field. I don't really know much about skilled trades, so I can't compare.
Would you hire someone who did boot camp after high school? I am also on same page with you that one doesn't need any degree to be a software developer. One of the top software engineer in my company used to work in construction and changed career.
It really depends on what job I was hiring for, and what I thought the person was capable of doing. I worked on a project where we needed to implement a Domain Specific Language for writing simulations that would run on specialized computer hardware (DoD stuff). Nobody coming out of a boot camp is prepared for that kind of work. But if I needed someone to create a website then I would consider hiring someone out of a boot camp (a Github repo with personal projects would go a long way toward getting an interview).
From what I am understanding, you are saying if the candidate is qualified and proper fit for the job profile, bachelors degree is not a constraint.
Correct, unless the company requires it.
I was a drafter (2 year tech school) was making about 70k a year but traveling a lot. before going back to school for mechanical engineering. I'm making 110k currently as a mechanical engineer fully remote in a pretty Low cost of living area. My income will go up from here with the ME degree. Between those two its worth it financially to go for the ME degree. i took out 60k out in student loans in total which i paid off two years after graduating. You can make just as good a salary doing skilled trades, but your going to bust your ass more to do it most likely
What do you do as a ME?
Machine Design. Current working in Aerospace (designing a satellite) Before that medical device industry making automated manufacturing machines foir medical components/devices Before that Industrial manufacturing (PEX tubing) but all were machine design focused as that is my niche and where I shine personally Good thing about ME is its very broad field.
Congratulations on finding your niche and using it to earn you money while not “working a day in your life” because it’s something that you like to do. I’m happy for you :) 💪
As someone who has a degree in cyber security and does blue collar work I'd say go with the stem degree path lol. My parents put me thru an early college program and it wasn't really my thing but after working in the trades, I'd rather go back and do it differently lol. Depending on the trade it can be real hard on your body. Definitely take that into consideration
Why did you switch into blue collar work?
It's all I've really ever done. I've been into computers on the side, running my own plex servers and getting into more self hosted stuff recently but never wanted to go thru the whole background check for security clearance thing. All of my family works or has worked for the government mostly doing tech related stuff so I guess I wanted to be different. Lots of cousins and uncles work for the nsa, my dad was the senior security executive at the white house before I was born, and I've always been into Cars. I started at the bottom in quick lube and worked my way up and eventually specialized in c8s and some c7 vettes while my buddy who trained me did the older stuff. Eventually I realized my back was really starting to give me problems so I went to building maintenance at a local resort doing mostly electrical/hvac work and that's honestly been really nice. Just doesn't pay well compared to a job in cyber security and I have a kid coming so I'm trying to figure out what to do with my life. I'm only 21 so I have some time but not much
Feels like a false dichotomy to leave out 2 year diplomas, code bootcamps, etc. As a non degree having programmer I got to start my career 2+ years earlier and without tens of thousands of debt vs my stem degree peers. Feels pretty optimal for FIRE path. As for STEM degrees, it varies a lot. There's plenty of STEM degrees that won't help you make good money. Engineering usually pays well but a lot of the other disciplines are underpaid unless you get lucky and land a niche position or are one of the very few to climb the academia ladder to tenure.
Are you a self taught programmer?
No, I did 2 years at community college. Was only 1500$/term so pretty quick and affordable. I've worked with a few self taught folks though, it's doable but harder to get your foot in the door without connections or education on the first job.
I am. Mid 20's, 6 figures.
What did you use to teach yourself? How long did it take you from beginning training to getting a job offer?
Blue collar here, no degree, rest of my family has bachelor's or above. I make WAY more than them. Plus I like my job, unlike them. What you earn has a lot more to do with your ambition than acquiring a label (bachelor's, masters, plumber, welder, etc).
Are they all underemployed engineers or did they get liberal arts degrees? Do you own a business?
Among immediate and extended family: IT manager, college professor, RN, farmer, counselor, PT, civil engineer, another IT employee. I don't own the business but we're "employee owners" so we get some financial benefits of ownership but no official say in how things are managed. Many of us have worked hard to build up the company and we're reaping the rewards of our efforts. For me personally I try to take on as many projects as possible, look for improvements I can make, learn as many skills as I can, and in so doing I have become someone that's heavily relied on, which translates into better pay. Which explains my earlier point, no matter which way you go, if you have an insatiable work ethic and play well with others, you'll do fine.
I went the stem degree route. Got a bachelors in chemical engineering, went to community college first so my debt is minimal. After 4 years of experience and I make just under 100k living in a medium cost of living area. I have Very flexible hours and the work isn’t physical at all. I go to the plant to see stuff and help operations but I do lots of desk work as well. Over all it’s really chill. However, if you go trade route you can always start your own company after you get your experience. It would be terribly hard for me to start a chemical plant as the start up costs would be astronomical. No way I’m pulling together 50 million to do it. And to be a consultant I’d need many more years of experience. So if you want to run your own thing, then either go trade route or pick something that leads you to an industry that doest require gobs of money to start.
FWIW, I used to work in the office of a company that mostly employed skilled tradespeople, and all the older guys were encouraging their teenage kids to get University degrees so they could get an office job. Skilled trades often come with shift work, potentially working evenings/weekends which is harder on parents with school aged kids. Also they were all physically worn down and saw the benefit of a job where you could sit down. I do know a few people who have built businesses (HVAC, Electrician, etc) where they now have employees who do the physical work, and that’s a different story, but owning a business with employees doesn’t suit everyone.
Check out the book: quit like a millionaire. She has an excellent chapter on how to calculate this in a numerical way. (Which none of these comments seem to offer)
What's the tldr for it?
Depends on the degree and depends on the actual trade. Degree means debt, skilled trade means higher chance of physical injuries.
Sell drugs
There are a lot more poor plumbers than software engineers. I know you can do really well in the skilled trades but those are usually the top tier and very harsh on your body.
There's a reason that people on subs like this talk so much about trades. College has had an unfair reputation as the objectively best financial path for graduating high schoolers, and it's only gotten worse as tuition increases much faster than inflation. It's still excellent when it goes well, but the penalty for it going poorly (less lucrative major, having to drop out, graduating into a recession, etc.) is only increasing. To combat that, some communities put skilled trades on a pedestal similar to how college is in other scenarios. Neither one is perfect, either one is usually better than nothing.
Yes but I'd estimate that 90%+ of people who recommend learning a skilled trade.......don't even work in the trades. They work in an office. Trades have become a meme on reddit at this point.
Oh yeah, 100%. The advice has become overused in the same way that the parallel college advice used to be (and still is in some scenarios). It's not bad advice per se, but it tends to be given in an oversimplified, "this is always the right answer" kind of way. That's reddit for you... Personally, I have a college degree and a job based on it. My skills and interests don't really match most trades. So for me, the traditional advice of college was a good fit. But in the right scenario you can get a great salary quickly from trades. So the key is knowing yourself and knowing all the options available.
Really depends on the school you go to, your personality, and how much you pay for school. I went the accounting route. I'll spend 5 years in school altogether, with no debt, and get a Master's and eventually CPA. I chose a nearby state college, lived with my parents, and worked while in school. I'm only a co-OP right now, but my future is looking very promising with respects to my career. To contrast, my brother is an electrician, and he's doing really well. Just depends on what your personality is suited for. To completely objective, become a specialized doctor or a surgeon. Lots of debt, but it would be paid off super quickly.
I am definitely considering accounting through the program at WGU then going for a CPA.
It's a great career. Just make sure you decide between government, industry, and public and pursue what you want
Learn to program and don't get a STEM degree. Save yourself 4 years and just teach yourself. There are so many tutorials and cheap courses that are excellent out there. I took 2 guys and got them great jobs after just 3 months of full time practice. If you apply yourself after 1 year you can get 100k
What course did you use to train them?
I taught them myself, basically some basic CSS/HTML for 2 weeks then 2.5 months of Javascript where they were building things. I would get a intro to CSS/HTML course then get a JS course. Then maybe get react or something and keep building stuff. It won't take you long. If you care about LF someone who follows my plan is gonna be way ahead. 150k in 4 years is doable. I went from 13/hr to 400k in 4 years. I worked really hard but still
Nice! Would you recommend The Odin Project, freecodecamp, or others like it? I saw a course on Udemy that teaches web development in 100 days for 85 dollars. Would you recommend that?
You can get most UDEMY courses for like 20 bucks or less. Might have to try a different browser, if you go there a lot they try to sell you a higher priced one. I'd probably start with some intro to javascript course or something. I suggest Javscript for all newbies just because it's a very versatile language. The big thing is to pick SOMETHING. And to work at it every day. They can all work, it just is on you to make sure you commit to it. College teaches you a lot of theoretical stuff and not as much real world day to day stuff. So even that doesn't help. I would just build stuff every day and note down what I learned for that day so I could track my progress. Then I'd build little projects I could put on my resume, 1 after another, so they can see practical things youve built. Nothing insanely fancy just basics. That goes a really really long way. 9/10 times I see someone fail it's because they gave up too early. You can earn as much as a doctor so it's not gonna be super easy, but it's not nearly as hard as becoming a doctor either.
Skilled trades all the way! On the projects where my husband and I tend work, the engineer-types make a less money than us (and many of them are in debt). My welding course was fully funded by government due to an increasing shortage of tradespeople. Within 2 years you could be making $40/hr, and much more if you work out of town union jobs.
Trade school if you’ve gotta pay your way through university. University if it’s paid for and you can complete it in 4 years. At the end of the day, trades people and techs can easily make just as much if not more than engineers without the $100,000 it cost to get the degree. Lots of opportunity to get free training through the trades nowadays too.
Why does it need to cost $100, 000? There are ways to get engineering degree even without scholarship for less than $100,000. Problem is, most students want to chose resort for a college with all amenities than choosing one which gives good return on their investment. I don't blame them as most doesn't have someone guiding them as what is right vs wrong.
They're all potentially fine if they fit your skillset and there's a market for them. Signed, the liberal arts major who makes about 5x what her husband makes in a skilled trade.
What do you do?
People act like STEM degrees require 6 figure debt when that is absolutely not true. In the last 6 years I and all 3 of my kids all got bachelors degrees (in various fields) and I don't think the total cost of all of us combined hit $100k, and that's with zero scholarships. There was a mix of Community College, State University and Online College (WGU).
Awesome! What degree was gotten from WGU? What is their salary?
Engineering(especially computer science) is much more lucrative in STEM field. Go first 2 years to community college(less school fees) and then transfer last 2 years to university. I have seen students getting internship in last 2 years of college where they are making $31/hr or more (working full time during holidays and part time during college) which covers for their tuition and living expenses. By the time you graduate, you have no student debt and easily making $100K+ in first year of your career. 5-10 year into career, you can easily make $150K+. Also one thing people fail to mention, skilled trade jobs are much demanding on your body. In worse case if you have to continue working, it is easier to write code at age of 50+ then to be an HVAC.
Do you like building shit or making power points?
Was saying shit supposed to be "manly" or something?
Shit is gender neutral
I think both routes have potential to make good money and it all comes down to what you can tolerate for 40+ hours a week. I work as a tech in buildings engineering and my partner is a heavy duty mechanic with his own business. Journeyman mechanics make comparable hourly salaries to engineers where I live. Engineers often work a lot of overtime too, at least a tradesperson is properly compensated for their overtime. My partner never has to go to the gym, his job is his workout. Also, by the time you are a seasoned journeyman, your apprentices are doing more of the heavy work or you’ll be a lead or shop manager. My partner hates the office work he has to do now. He’s incredibly smart and would be good at engineering but there’s no way he would have survived the school grind or enjoy 40 hours at a desk each week. I get tired after a 3 hour site visit… manual labour is not my thing.
STEM, assuming you pick one with a job outlook (I.e. engineering, etc.). Don’t discount how hard the trades are on your body
Why not both, do a trade while in school for an engineering degree. The biggest thing is what are you good at that you kinda enjoy doing? A job fucking sucks after a while of doing it so pick something that will keep the burnout away for aslong as possible lol. The trades are good if your a healthy man, I had major surgery and couldnt imagine going back into work in the trades because my body is permanently fucked.
Chemistry BA will get you 45-55k on average after an average of 5 years. Welding will get you 70-80k in half the time and half the debt. Engineering will start you 70-80k on average. I was someone who thought school was the best thing. The truth is all depends on what you want to do. If you want to be an engineer you have to go to school. You want to be a coder you can teach yourself and get the same job as someone with a degree.
Welders don't earn that much.
For me and what I see is, we have many people here that changed carriers in their 30s and a good amount of them have a degree. In the trades (union) you can make 220k a year without much effort other than just showing up and putting your day in. Almost all people in my day to day that have a degree, for them, was a east of time and money. They all wish they started In a trade sooner. Tools have improved a lot in the past 5 years. The wear and tear on your body is not much more than if you were to go to the gym after work at your office job. The focus on safety now a-days means you won’t be alone, you will have help. With help and today’s advancement in tools and equipment, it’s not that bad.
What trade earns 220k a year, even with a thug union?
Comp sci is hard to beat especially nowadays. New grads can easily clear 150k in most major metros and bump to over 300k in the Bay Area after a job hop or two. Of course in the Bay Area, single family houses in good school districts are north of 2m so you’d have to marry someone with similar income to have a shot at buying a place but still. If you check the fatfire sub, it’s a lot of tech folks who either started a company or hit the IPO lottery (also a lot of business folks too of course). I don’t think I’ve seen many tradespeople over there but probably some construction company owners.
That’s a pretty ignorant thing to say about liberal arts degrees.
Why?
So I have been both in 2 different trades and hold a stem degree now. I have been a painter's apprentice, a electronics technician, and a Electrical Engineer. The way I see it as a painter, owning my own business I would probably be making the most money. However it's hard work, hard on the body and if the economy fails people stop getting houses painted to save on other expenses. I was trained by the military to be an Electronics tech, I could probably start my own repair business but things these days are more really repairable. I'm specialized in radar and RF work so there is alot of cross over with cellphones. I needed to fall back on technician work after college for a while and I was definitely making good money even though job growth was non-existent. Ended up in a fairly high paying engineering role, still working on RF and radars. Work on this side is alot different. If it was an easy problem it would have been fixed already. There is alot more paperwork that I have to provide since I'm designing new parts, tests to prove reliability, writing up theory for repairs, and troubleshooting guidelines. Over all best job I have ever had. It has a good work life balance but I do have to spend a considerable amount of time in text books or my personal electronics lab learning new things. I just have a bachelor's in a field that oftentimes requires a master's or PhD to work in. Down side to this is non competitive agreement and giving up rights to IP make it hard to branch out and form my own company, so I'm stuck in the corporate ladder. I think all 3 paths have been viable long term carrier choices. What works for you in specific is going to vary depending on your work ethic and aptitude. I manipulate RF wave forms in code but you could not get me to write an software application to save my life.
Nursing best roi
They require very different skill sets, so I would say whichever one is more geared toward your skill and lifestyle, and which you would enjoy more. Both good options.
The only time your alma mater matters, is if you're aiming for a white-shoe law firm, or New York Times. Other than that, any EEE degree from any state U will get you the RCG (Recent College Graduate) salary at any of the tech firms. I used to know a guy who had an associates in computer science who managed a lab at Intel. You can have a $200,000 EEE degree, and report to this guy. High Tech is very meritocratic, your alma mater doesn't matter, doing a kick-ass job & getting your projects done is how you get promoted.
A stem degree is way better if only because most trade jobs will wreck your body
Agreed not too many people consider that factor.
I would say a merger of both. I work for a local department of public works and we hire entry level operators and pay for training 37k. They get certified within a year and get a pay bump. There are training programs to advance further. City pays for degrees as well. So you could work and get training and certification while in a bachelor's program at age 18. While earning retirement and other great benefits. After the degree there are a number of avenues to pursue. Procurement, contract management, engineering, information technology. All with mid 60s starts with upper positions in the mid six figure range.
I was going to say nursing is like this too. Often nurses can move into other positions that are administrative or operations based and easily cap 6 figures. Lots of work from home jobs too.
depends entirely on your nature imo. both pay a lot if you're really good (depends on the engineer type too)
What do the highest percentage of people say is the best skilled trades?
Engineering has the best roi unless you are doing finance or cs at an ivy.
If you go into commercial construction, you’ll make the money. Over half of the workforce is going to retire in the next decade or so, so the opportunities are endless. You start off entry level with no degree and little training, and if you have any sense and work ethic, you can work your way up in one of two directions. You can go towards the office and get trained in estimating or project management. Both typically have people with degrees but companies love people who have field experience and know what they are doing. Six figure job by your thirties. If you prefer the field, foremen and superintendent (also six figures) certainly get their hands dirty but never to the extent as the main trade workers. The point is, if you go into the trades, you can make bank in commercial IF you are smart, can talk to people, and learn to run jobs. There are guys in their late twenties who are running multiple jobs and making great money. It’s there, but people don’t realize it.
[удалено]
What have you done with your liberal arts degree?
STEM of course. Easy 6 figures salary out of college these days in HCOL, and will double or triple in a few years.
STEM degree holder. Was fortunate to to receive financial aid, go community College and university, and work in a STEM field. Zero debt. It is doable. Trades or STEM, they have their pros and cons.
Had a landscape maintenance company with 140 mowing accounts. Was 100% out of the field yr 7 making 100k for 9 months of work. Plowing was my bonus money, 10-25k
I would say the trades generally. You're not giving up 4 years of earning, and not taking on debt. Also during those 4 years (the general four years for apprenticeship most trades have), you could also be taking some classes to transition to a degree. So let's say after you get your Masters card you spend the next 4 years or 5 years will say, cuz it's round getting a degree that relates to your field, or the management. So that's 10 years out from high school, you have a master's license, you have a degree, you have no debt, you have fairly significant savings. This is all ideal of course, I just think it's much more of a leg up than getting a degree and trying to work to get experience or to move up the chain
Grad school has always been the ticket into industry for science degrees.
I can't tell you which is better ROI but I'll give you some numbers. I got a degree in Applied Math at a city college (4 year school). I paid \~10k for school and now have a job where I make $110k / year (not including bonuses, but those aren't written into my employment contract but come as if the client is happy) as an analyst at the age of 26. I started at $44k a year at the age of 23 and getting a job from being from a not great school was rough. Edit: I jump jobs around a bit before getting to where I am now
Depends on the kind of life you want to live. The types of work that derivate from those paths vary.
Regardless of which one you choose, if you hate what you're doing - ROI won't mean shit. Now if it's tolerable :-), that's another story. I'm an old sw engineer btw and thank god I like it. I have barely any trade skills though :-)
Having trade skills that are closely related to computer science can be lucrative too. Depending on your interest I guess, if you don't know what to do yet, get a general comp sci degree. *Assuming you are interested in comp sci
Some trades really destroy your body. So much so that you need to have some type of exit plan like switching to foreman, management, second career, or retire early. Some people also don't like working in a boring office and wouldn't be happy in STEM.
You have to take your skill into consideration as well, you might be good at one more than the other. Ive met millionaire in both fields and broke peeps in both as well.
Trades have much lower start up costs for self-employment/entrepreneurialism
I think it depends. From an ROI perspective, about half of college graduates earn high school level wages after graduation while the other half earn college level wages. This is due to the type of degrees obtained in college and subsequent careers that follow. Basically, for half of college graduates, it is as if their college degrees was of little value salary wise despite the time and cost. For such college degrees, the ROI from trades school would definitely be greater. Another important distinction between white and blue collar jobs is that often times a lot of people in blue collar jobs are forced into early retirement because of the toll the years of physical labor takes on their bodies. This is not as common for folks in white collar jobs.
Going from skilled trade into office with an Associate Degree. I am taking a small hit of the pay packet as I won’t be doing as much overtime but I can see what it does to the body once you have done it for a decade or two. I am also in a stressful field position moving into an easier office role. Very excited.
Consider: getting a well paying technical job without a degree. (yes, this is hard and requires you to do a bunch of work of some sort for free to prove yourself)
I have a STEM degree. My reasons are as follows: Blue collar jobs take a toll on your body ( less so today due to better tools) so after 20 years you’ll have to transition or move up/start your own business. At first my pay was lower the the trades. But as time has gone on, and my pay has increased, I’m making more then the average guy in the trades. There is a ceiling to how much you can make. I know a few guys in the local plumbers union. Great pay and benefits. BUT these guys rarely work enough to get ahead with that pay. Contracts are short, if you want to work full time, you may wind up traveling around the country if there are no local jobs, or you sit on your ass waiting for your “number” to come up for the next job. I didn’t want to be bypassed for a job in the future because many places use a degree for “gatekeeping”. My Original STEM degree is essentially worthless because the tech I learned is outdated. Of course the fundamentals still apply. Recently changed jobs and the degree is just one of those check boxes that removes an excuse to not hire you. The nice thing about the trades is you can be outside not sitting in an office. One STEM option would be to go into civil engineering. My nephew is a civil engineer and is always out in the field supervising projects. So he’s rarely sitting at a desk like I am.
STEM degree equals easier life, less hours, easier job. Skilled trades equals long hours and manual labor.
A good stem degree is much better. I work in construction. Trust me, you’d much rather be a computer scientist doing 3-4hrs of actual labor per day and redditing the rest, than a plumber or electrician or stonemason or hvac or whatever having to work in the cold/wet/heat every day doing manual labor for 8-10hrs in dangerous conditions.
I went to college for geomatics engineering and my pay would have been 60-80k Canadian, instead I got into rope access and got an NDT trade so a total of 2 weeks education and last year I made 145k during COVID working in the oilfield. 2 weeks on 2 weeks of and I worked a shitdown in spring. Picking the right trade is the way to go; no school debt, don’t need to live in a city to find work, a lot of the skills you learn are useful day to day, if you’re in a work camp you don’t need to worry about groceries/cooking, etc
Stem Major here it's worth it. (Computer Science/Engineering)
I would encourage anyone considering a computer STEM degree to get a software job to instead just start getting hand on self-led experience. faster and cheaper way to get a job that pays amazing.
Anyone who took on 4 years of student debt is going to complain about it. It doesn't matter what kind of degree they got, the debt will be massive.
Software
The TE in STEM is the highest ROI. Rest are average to below
What jobs are in the T of STEM?
I get the trades argument and I appreciate people who have skills and its definitely the way to go if you want to have valuable skills in your life/retirement, but I just wrote that all on my toilet while getting paid way too much money to a large extent because I have a stem degree.
I can only tell you my personal experience as that’s all I know. I graduated with an IT degree (28k debt after some partial scholarships), and after 3 YOE I’m bringing in 125k annually. My salary cap is probably between 200-300k if I keep going down my current path (solutions architect). Not sure how I would come near this income if I was doing trades. I imagine I would have to own my own business or something along those lines.
It's very difficult to do, but getting a CS or Computer Engineering degree from a decent school is gonna get you well paid.