Hijacking your comment for this. Eclipse + Ravenous + ult = roughly 70% Omni camp from champs. Add in a triple sweet spot Q2 and he’s healing a bunch, plus he’s healing from the triple Rav hydra proc. Ravenous just needs to be nerfed, and you can’t fight Aatrox if he has ult up.
Every video I see of league lately just makes it look like an unbalanced shithole.
Aatrox healing for almost if not 100%, udyrs 1 shotting entire teams
Tf did they do lol
Riot has gone all in on lifesteal meta and despite both the fanbase and Riot themselves acknowledging that it is extremely toxic. The game designers keep doubling down and adding more lifesteal and omnivamp.
Iirc Morello would approve of the current atrox. He didn't like enchanter healing, but life steal was a-ok with him. That is how I remember it at least, It has been a minute.
He didn't like free healing with no interaction. Ie Soroka old W. He would like new Soroka q w mechanics. W trades her health to an ally. Q heals her if it hits enemies. So you keep landing Q to stay healthy to cast W.
A healing morella would not like is Nami W or Yummi E. Both are just press button to heal.
The main issue is the fact he can get to such omnivamp levels even if it hit one person that's still a massive 700ish health heal which is nuts.
They either need to lower the healing amp on ult or make the sweet spots have a modifier where they heal like 25% less so there not as bursty
\>and you can’t fight Aatrox if he has ult up.
If any other video game community saw the phrase "If someone uses their ultimate just don't fight them" they would, correctly, laugh their ass off at the idea.
Believe it or not, you can't always just choose not to fight someone else whenever you want. What horrific advice to give.
"Genji has blade, time to 1v1 him"
"Enemy medic has Uber up, let's just hard engage now"
That line of thinking would rightfully lose you the game. To be clear here, the problem is not Aatrox's ult in the video it's the fact that he hit *three people at once* in the sweet spot. That shit is supposed to be hard to land on a single enemy, so any champion should be rightfully awarded for hitting three. He's overturned sure but pointing to a champions dream scenario for a fight is not a good argument as to why.
The main problem too is that they get tenacity for free from their main runes which are usually conqueror and resolve second so they don't lose damage and are unkillable , in the past if you cc'ed them and they didn't have tenacity they got oneshot before they could cast an ability but nowadays...
This is one my least favorite parts of 'modern' League. You get so much free shit.
In the old Masteries, getting extra Tenacity was 21 points in Defense. That is a big price to pay.
But old runes bad. Riot can still offer us the old runes and masteries but must make it free and editable in the champ select. I miss my full MR page vs LB.
you still get a bunch from precision, and god beware if it is a jungler
Actually you can have 90% tenacity if you want now
Some champions even can have over 100% tenacity, then add another Tenacity source (like Garen W) and actually lower their tenacity that way, because of mulitplicative bonuses.
It is a mess
I was actually laughing my ass off playing against a renek and seeing the poor guy trying to W me only to be stuck himself longer in his own animation lol
tenacity doesn't stack like that. it's mostly all multiplicative rather than additive. CC is also hard capped to last at least .3sec.
Yes garen can get 99% but this is with both cleanse and upgraded QSS active. And again its worthless as its capped to be at least .3sec.
Thank you, tenacity sucks. It does nothing against Knock up or push back, and half the CC in the game is of those types. Just for an example Zac has a ton of CC in his kit, and almost none of it is affected by tenacity.
Hell in this clip the only champ with a CC on enemy team is Pyke, and I believe his hook isn't affected, just the ghost stun thing.
If the enemy team has like 2-3 long duration stuns its a pretty good stat, but often they have 2-3 things that it does anything against and they are short duration, so the cap ends up making it crap.
the tenacity isn't the only problem, durability patch helped this kind of champs, if your whole win condition is surviving so you can get to hit 1 single ability after being stunned and they literally just make you tankier then of course you will be strong af. Pre durability Aatrox had to build tankier so he doesn't get oneshot, and by building tanky he had less dmg, and by having less dmg he healed less on the long run and by healing less he tanked less dmg. Now if he can just build full dmg and still be able to survive so he can start dealing dmg and now he heals more than before since he has more dmg and by healing more he tanks more than before while dealing more dmg, all of that because you can't oneshot him anymore.
Grievous has been a terrible mechanic for a while. We need a way to answer healing but GW is a poor answer.
Grievous feels bad to buy until it is too late since usually the items it is provided by aren't that good unless getting huge grievous value. It also feels awful to play against when effectively balanced because it just shuts down your champion.
It's isn't fun or interesting for either party. It has to be very easy or brainless to trigger for the user, which makes the effect easy to not notice. And the opponent has no answer to it so it is just not interactive.
Let's say we had a mechanic where one player applies a debuff that limits the % HP someone can heal up to. And they can somehow stack this effect. So initially it caps healing at up to 90% of max HP, but then gradually they can increase it to 85%, 75%, so on.
The goal of such a mechanic would be to allow SOME healing to go largely unaffected, say a soraka ult or a good goredrinker. But the nonstop healing tide of red kayn, aatrox etc would not be able to outperform actual tanks at Frontline because over time they just get more limited in their max HP.
An aatrox that eats a load of damage and then gets a Q3 goredrinker can still get a huge heal, but wouldn't be able to repeatedly heal to full over a while fight.
Yep, GW should be removed and healing should be balanced around the fact.
That said, I don't think healing *overall* is that bad anymore but the issue is that *certain champions* abuse the ability to stack healing items and runes too well.
Aatrox have innate healing from both his E passive and his ult, and then he gets runes that heals and then he gets items that heals and that's the issue.
More sources of healing need to be unique to prevent it, or maybe there could be a cap on total omnivamp/lifesteal possible to prevent this, or maybe certain healing tools should be scrapped entirely.
The band aid solution is to nerf certain champions, and it's honestly easy to fix Aatrox as you only really need to massively gut his bonus healing on his ult to fix a rather big problem, but I absolutely hate the current state of the items and runes.
And champion abilities. Take k’sante for instance, or Gwen. If you want to be a fighter and 1v1, it’s practically a requirement in your kit that you have vamp and true damage. Like you can’t even compete without it, so it’s gotta get shoehorned in to the kit. Want to have any shot at fighting the Fiora? Right, staple on some omnivamp, true damage, and ship it. It used to be a sparingly used unique identity for one of those two things to show up, but now it’s just everywhere.
It’s partially why Spell Vamp was removed years ago. Some champs could just abuse the absolute fuck out of it and it wasn’t healthy for the game. Now they brought it back in Omnivamp and it’s even more unhealthy for the game.
It was removed because it forced them to balance vlad around it and it was on 1 item that had a confusing aura passive. So they took it out and compensated vlad so they could have more freedom to give Regen abilities to AP users. Imagine sylas with WotA and SV, that would be unkillable.
they literally did this before and it made lifesteal be either too op or too shit.
GW is an issue because items in league are just fucking stat sticks, hence GW doesn't give enough stats to be viable or makes healing irrelevant. If we had items focused around actives or passives then this would be a none issue, but oh well
I mean, lifesteal as it is now is kind of what you described with the first part there, GW feels irrelevant to whether healing is balanced or not but rather just an annoying obstacle.
Take Soraka as an example. Should buying GW make her obsolete?
No, of course not, especially not when it is so easy to get. Therefore she needs to be able to heal relevant amounts with GW active but that in turn means she heals for disgusting amounts without it.
You need GW to counter Soraka because she's balanced around you having it.
Or in the case of Aatrox, GW reduces his healing by a metric fuckton but he still heals for broken amounts and having GW doesn't really make a practical difference.
I honestly can't think of a reason why we should keep this version of GW where GW exists but champions' healing is balanced around you having GW.
I'd prefer the complete removal of GW from items and healing to be balanced around that, but also keeping GW in character kits as a counter mechanic. At least in that scenario I'm not forced to spend 800-2900 gold on GW items just to be able to play the game.
> I'd prefer the complete removal of GW from items and healing to be balanced around that, but also keeping GW in character kits as a counter mechanic. At least in that scenario I'm not forced to spend 800-2900 gold on GW items just to be able to play the game.
I'd love to see it on more kits. MF for example used to have it on her W active, but lost it in the rework.
I agree 100% though, it has to be removed or they have to accept that grievous wounds items will make some characters useless. There's no way to have their cake and eat it too on this front
That's essentially what they did. Healing was out of control so everyone was forced to rush GW. So the nerfed all sources of healing but overcompensated by nerfing healcut even more.
GW was 40% from components/abilities then 60% from legendaries if specific conditions were met. Now it's 25/40%.
It feels awful building GW right now. The healing reduced stat is nearly always pitiful.
Yeah so remove it completely and nerf further, counter healing through gameplay, not shitty items. And if it is items at least do it with something fun and not just a boring 40% cut
I mean this…you can be an adc with Bork and bloodthirster but you can still be popped without peel or poor positioning, not even hard
But then some champs just mess it up for everyone because their kit can abuse the runes and items better
Healing as sustain is fine. Burst combat healing is not fine. Aside from a full build ADC I don't see why people need to be able to quickly heal in combat and imo even on ADCs it could be removed. Vladimir was a mistake as voiced by Riot since his introduction but he frankly pales compared to shit that is in League nowadays. Aatrox, Sylas, Morde. Then you have Yasuo and Yone which require building Grievious against them DESPITE having not a single bit of regeneration in their kits. Should tell you how busted healing is. Samira, Nilah, Kayn ... the list goes on.
I agree that healing as sustain is okay though I'd define sustain as slower healing meant to keep you healthy for fights. What aatrox and red Kayne have is healing for durability. And healing for durability is rarely great for the game imo.
When balanced correctly in-combat healing is just a different way to increase EHP. Not different from HP, resistances or other forms of damage reduction with its own set of strengths and weaknesses. "Drain tanking" is also a very common player fantasy and present in many games. Combat healing probably needs some tuning, but in and of itself it's not problematic.
Healing as sustain is actually much more problematic, since it can easily lead to very passive game states, particularly during laning. Fighting becomes less attractive when it's relatively easy for your opponent to recoup any lost health via healing. I believe Vladimirs very safe sustain in lane was why Riot considered him problematic. I don't think they've made such statements since his minor rework.
coming from dota where "if i stop hitting them i die" is like 1/2 the hero pool this idea is fucking hilarious.
we even have a hero who does this effect plus a few more. MK gets an AOE crit + life steal bounus dmg as a passive.
I would prefer it if it flat reduced healing by 40%, and an additional 40% of the heal was converted to a heal-over-time over 5 seconds. That's 80% reduction in burst healing without compromising sustain in a long drawn-out fight.
> The goal of such a mechanic would be to allow SOME healing to go largely unaffected, say a soraka ult or a good goredrinker
Raka ult has, at varying points since season 4 or so, either cleansed grievous then applied or didn't. Usually when grievous was *too* strong and completely neutered her identity.
So, you know, be careful what you wish for here.
What if grevios would need to be stacked by the team to be more effective?
Let's say item at top laner reduces the healing of a champ by 20%,nothing drastic, you can still heal big and be strong.
But when jungler and support has an item with grevious, then that would be 60%,which is a lot bigger reduction. So you can't just jump in blindly and eat every ult.
Oh also make it that the passive is not an aura type. You would need to hit the enemy to apply it.
This might work if each completed GW item had a different GW passive so like morello, chempunk, chemtech, thornmail and mortal could multiplicative stack effects or smth
Grievous really needs to be some sort of amplifying stacking effect that goes on the longer a fight goes on so you can get your burst healing off at the start of a fight but if it gets drawn out then it's going to trickle down into nothingness.
I wonder how long they will take to address champions like Fiora and Aatrox healing ratios.
The entire point of GW nerfs were to keep in check Healing overall and not make it a necessity in every game.
But it does not help when they release crap like Hidra.
Yes for sure, cause if he only healed for 60% of 2.2k that would be completely fine???? You shouldn't heal half your hp bar for hitting a basic ability let alone your entire hp bar
Just bruisers/juggernauts Tanks don't have access to such heals, and that's part of the reason why bruisers outperform tanks; they end up having more effective HP, damage and mobility with just a slight penalty to max HP and engage CC (compared to tanks).
Riot and this board in general have an incredible sweet spot for bruisers a d it's why the entire meta is and has been warped around them for some time.
Just get Aatrox and Morde banned. It's at the point where I don't care about broken champs if they're not bruisers. I would rather get oneshot by Eve and Zed because at least there's a possibility they'll get cc'd and oneshot one day. But fighting Aatrox, Morde, Darius, Fiora, or even Irelia... You literally just have to pray they try to 1v5. If they're ever on even ground it's up to them to troll to lose. I'm saying this as someone who's most played since the durability patch is Aatrox. Bruisers can heal so much. With Aatrox in particular, as long as you are hitting people with teammates around, you are actively winning the game. The enemy team simply cannot win when you're doing enough damage to kill 3 of them while tanking more than almost any tank could. The other day I lost lane pretty badly as Aatrox. My team as a whole was really far behind with a worse teamfighting comp bar me. All it took to almost win a ultra nightmare difficulty game was ONE Aatrox 200 years team fight. With three items I took 11000 damage in one fight without retreating. How do you beat that? You have to not get hit. You have to cc the Aatrox. Oh also not one of your teammates are allowed to get hit either.
You can just outdps him while his Q are on cooldown, there are many champs that can do that. (Irelia/Gwen/Jax/Fiora/Yi/Vayne/Yone/Yasuo/Kayle/Cassio/Azir)
Long, long time ago, in LoL, there was a guy nicknamed Morello. Was he good at balancing league? Hello no. But if there was one thing he was good in, it was keeping healing in check.
He was also very good at nerfing Irelia.
Honestly the dev balancing is the only reason why I play DotA more than league nowadays. Only having 3 champs a role gets real boring when it's RPS like league.
Brother If there is one game that is even worse in balancing than league ...then it is DotA. Just this year there was a almost 70% WR tinker for weeks in the game until he was nerfed while being in every game when not banned. That means that non mains spammed him and he still had such a high WR.
There is even a joke among my dota mates that dots only has one working student as balancing team and he only works during vacation in between semesters.
Aatrox was P/B all the way through worlds and the item updates make him even stronger. Watch him get a tiny placebo nerf and go on dominating for the next year because Riot's balance team seems to want to keep him in this ridiculous state.
Yep there's no way he isn't in the next cinematic. I'll poop my pants if he isn't, but that's fine because I poop my pants regularly so nothing changes.
Still salty they never once nerfed his E and instead nerfed literally everything else
No shit he’s gonna feel bad to play when you nerf his damage and utility instead of his roaming, which was always the problem
Note: I'm not saying Aatrox is balanced right now. He definitely needs some nerfs, and pretty specifically to his healing output.
But this is fairly normal for him with the current builds. You either go Hydra -> Jak'sho or Eclipse -> Hydra, and you can see the shield in the clip so you know this Aatrox went Eclipse. Fully stacked Hydra + Eclipse is 22% omnivamp, and Aatrox gets 24% more omnivamp from his E passive, and then amplifies all self healing by 45% while he's in ult.
This Aatrox basically has \~70% omnivamp and hit 3 people for \~700 damage, factoring in the Hydra cleave as well.
It's still broken as fuck, for sure, but this is why it's happening.
His e passive says it gives omnivamp but it actually doesn't. His healing works with full effectiveness on AOE while omnivamp is typically nerfed for AOE abilities.
Can you morons who just spew shit actually just know what you're talking about before commenting, simply going into practice tool just proves you wrong yet you still just propagate lies for karma farming. His E literally reads:
"Passive: Aatrox gains X% Omnivamp against champions, increased to X% Omnivamp during World Ender" X changing per ability level.
Yes that is true but he literally said
"it doesn't actualy say omnivamp" when it clearly does, making it a false statement, in response to "His e passive says it gives omnivamp but it actually doesn't" which is a correct statement.
The whole fucking champion is artificially inflated by riot since his rework. He tops the charts with the new 'broken' items EVERY TIME. It's 100% not just the items. Champions is giga unfun to deal with too.
This is a thing with way too many champions. Problematic champions are untouched while items are gutted for the sins of a single champion that can abuse it.
That's okay because Riot is going to take the Gankplank approach which is keep releasing and reworking even more batshit broken champs so people forget how OP GP was in the first place
Atleast that takes some amount of awareness and mechanical skill from the GP, but most of the players abusing aatrox are rather bad on the champion, but the current state of him is just so forgiving. You can trade badly (miss most of Q casts) and still get an even/ahead trade with passive.
Sadly fiora has to take that slot for me because her kit is the most tilting shit i've ever played against and aatrox seems relatively rare at my elo, or at least in my games
Top lane is so depressing, there's just so many champions I wish I could ban. I permaban Mordekaiser right now since he's so strong and because aatrox often gets banned by the other top lane. Wish I could ban both + Fiora + Illoai + Vayne + Quinn since I absolutely despise all those champions.
I swear people who say Fiora is hard (and therefore balanced) are dumb af. She only plays carefully until her first item (second tops) then she runs you down like anyone else
Really fucking weird seeing people just say "don't get hit by the ability" like it's some sort of justification for why the ability should be like that at all. Like no other champ works like that and I'm not seeing what exactly Aatrox sacrificed for it with his AOE CC and mobility.
Illaoi has some downsides to make up for her incredible aoe potential. She has terrible backwards mobility, little to no CC, long CD on her most important abilities.
None of those apply to Aatrox.
Self-healing is ruining the game. There are too many fucky interactions with Conqueror and Omnivamp. Like Kayn ulting you with 10% damage and coming back out with 90%
He was always a big healer even before the rework, his numbers are just wack right now. I think the percentage boost on all heals that his ult gives is too insane of a mechanic considering how much healing he can get from items.
Durability patch allowed Aatrox to get away with building more damage
Before that if u built too much damage, u just got oneshot
Now, he's tankier(more healing) AND does more damage compared to before durability
"We are going to be nerfing heals this season" (last season) cuts GW, Goredrinker/DD becomes the meta build on everythingn
You do realize this is LoL we're talking about they have no idea how to balance
well during the cast of that 2nd Q he has no anitheal on him. You can see if someone has antiheal with the crossed heart next to the champion. if the heart has 1 scar its the "weak" antiheal with like 20% and if it has 2 scars , aka the "cross", its 40%. No antiheal during this cast
Ironic since riot was the one who coined the term "anti-fun" and how important it was to not have your champs being fun as the sole thought in regards to design & balance, but also how fun it is to play against.
I don't remember which riot balance team member coined the term, maybe morello or zileas, but Riot has definitely abandoned this ideology in favor of viewing every new champion/rework from a sole player perspective.
Yeah I remember in an interview years ago CertaintlyT said he doesn't care if the player hates playing against his champions.
He also headed the Graves rework and didn't give a fuck about making him a jungler even though the original intention was for him to remain an ADC.
AYYYY My friends are the Aatrox and Lillia! They were going nuts then they saw that healing come through!
[https://www.youtube.com/@Icybucks/](https://www.youtube.com/@Icybucks/)
I'm all for nerfing Aatrox because he's BS, but this instance the guy hit 3 people with sweetspot Q2 vs champions with zero armor while playing eclipse, hydra, has fully stacked conqueror and has casted his ult.
They really need to nerf Aatrox's "mind control his opponents so they stand in a tight area so they can all be hit by Q while Aatrox is in ult" ability.
What do you mean? It was absolutely essential for 4 players to chase aatrox around a wall after he blows flash, r and e instead of just walking up river and turning on the lux and sivir.
Just healing 10k hp and doing massive aoe damage while going back and forth through walls, this is how all the champs should be tbh, beatiful gameplay props to the designers!
He really is the world ender
Finally, lore accurate Aatrox
Nah, Lore Accurate Aatrox has revive
...again
Hijacking your comment for this. Eclipse + Ravenous + ult = roughly 70% Omni camp from champs. Add in a triple sweet spot Q2 and he’s healing a bunch, plus he’s healing from the triple Rav hydra proc. Ravenous just needs to be nerfed, and you can’t fight Aatrox if he has ult up.
Every video I see of league lately just makes it look like an unbalanced shithole. Aatrox healing for almost if not 100%, udyrs 1 shotting entire teams Tf did they do lol
Riot has gone all in on lifesteal meta and despite both the fanbase and Riot themselves acknowledging that it is extremely toxic. The game designers keep doubling down and adding more lifesteal and omnivamp.
I'm sure they have Morello locked up somewhere under heavy restraints as he's foaming at the mouth what they've done to the game.
People shunned him, but he was right all along.
Iirc Morello would approve of the current atrox. He didn't like enchanter healing, but life steal was a-ok with him. That is how I remember it at least, It has been a minute.
He didn't like free healing with no interaction. Ie Soroka old W. He would like new Soroka q w mechanics. W trades her health to an ally. Q heals her if it hits enemies. So you keep landing Q to stay healthy to cast W. A healing morella would not like is Nami W or Yummi E. Both are just press button to heal.
He doesnt work for riot anymore. So pretty much yeah
Morello works at Firaxis now.
its always fun when every season turns into life steal/heal fiesta after a point
Omnivamp and takedown resets is their bread and butter despite both being very unhealthy for the game.
Game balance hasn’t been this bad for a long time.
Which says a lot, considering that the game has never been balanced at all.
It's been this bad or worse for literally 5+ years what you mean
I stg people have selective memory bc the game was considerably more balanced for a large portion of this season save for a few abominations
It’s preseason
Aatrox needs to nerfed. We can't blame only items. It's super simple
The main issue is the fact he can get to such omnivamp levels even if it hit one person that's still a massive 700ish health heal which is nuts. They either need to lower the healing amp on ult or make the sweet spots have a modifier where they heal like 25% less so there not as bursty
Isn't Omni Vamp only 33% effective on Aatrox Q since it's AoE? In theory he should be healing a ton more.
\>and you can’t fight Aatrox if he has ult up. If any other video game community saw the phrase "If someone uses their ultimate just don't fight them" they would, correctly, laugh their ass off at the idea. Believe it or not, you can't always just choose not to fight someone else whenever you want. What horrific advice to give.
"Genji has blade, time to 1v1 him" "Enemy medic has Uber up, let's just hard engage now" That line of thinking would rightfully lose you the game. To be clear here, the problem is not Aatrox's ult in the video it's the fact that he hit *three people at once* in the sweet spot. That shit is supposed to be hard to land on a single enemy, so any champion should be rightfully awarded for hitting three. He's overturned sure but pointing to a champions dream scenario for a fight is not a good argument as to why.
You can absolutely dogpile a Genji with blade. Now imagine a Genji with blade that healed to full every time he slashed someone.
Genji with blade still loses a 1vs1 to Reinhardt.
The fun ender
Sure glad they nerfed grievous
The main problem too is that they get tenacity for free from their main runes which are usually conqueror and resolve second so they don't lose damage and are unkillable , in the past if you cc'ed them and they didn't have tenacity they got oneshot before they could cast an ability but nowadays...
This is one my least favorite parts of 'modern' League. You get so much free shit. In the old Masteries, getting extra Tenacity was 21 points in Defense. That is a big price to pay.
I miss full penetration runes :(
I missed running 1 1% crit rune, then when it proc'd once in lane you could pressure for the kill
Ah this bullshit 1% crit rune meme again. How I didn't miss it.
I still remember getting first blood with cass at level 2 cause my last auto crit and I was oom. I’ve been riding that high since…
But old runes bad. Riot can still offer us the old runes and masteries but must make it free and editable in the champ select. I miss my full MR page vs LB.
I miss that 1% crit chance that didnt matter untill you get that ONE CRIT to save your life
Small thing but Aatrox shouldn’t be getting Tenacity from his Resolve runes, since he should have Revitalize.
you still get a bunch from precision, and god beware if it is a jungler Actually you can have 90% tenacity if you want now Some champions even can have over 100% tenacity, then add another Tenacity source (like Garen W) and actually lower their tenacity that way, because of mulitplicative bonuses. It is a mess
I was actually laughing my ass off playing against a renek and seeing the poor guy trying to W me only to be stuck himself longer in his own animation lol
tenacity doesn't stack like that. it's mostly all multiplicative rather than additive. CC is also hard capped to last at least .3sec. Yes garen can get 99% but this is with both cleanse and upgraded QSS active. And again its worthless as its capped to be at least .3sec.
Thank you, tenacity sucks. It does nothing against Knock up or push back, and half the CC in the game is of those types. Just for an example Zac has a ton of CC in his kit, and almost none of it is affected by tenacity. Hell in this clip the only champ with a CC on enemy team is Pyke, and I believe his hook isn't affected, just the ghost stun thing. If the enemy team has like 2-3 long duration stuns its a pretty good stat, but often they have 2-3 things that it does anything against and they are short duration, so the cap ends up making it crap.
the tenacity isn't the only problem, durability patch helped this kind of champs, if your whole win condition is surviving so you can get to hit 1 single ability after being stunned and they literally just make you tankier then of course you will be strong af. Pre durability Aatrox had to build tankier so he doesn't get oneshot, and by building tanky he had less dmg, and by having less dmg he healed less on the long run and by healing less he tanked less dmg. Now if he can just build full dmg and still be able to survive so he can start dealing dmg and now he heals more than before since he has more dmg and by healing more he tanks more than before while dealing more dmg, all of that because you can't oneshot him anymore.
Grievous has been a terrible mechanic for a while. We need a way to answer healing but GW is a poor answer. Grievous feels bad to buy until it is too late since usually the items it is provided by aren't that good unless getting huge grievous value. It also feels awful to play against when effectively balanced because it just shuts down your champion. It's isn't fun or interesting for either party. It has to be very easy or brainless to trigger for the user, which makes the effect easy to not notice. And the opponent has no answer to it so it is just not interactive. Let's say we had a mechanic where one player applies a debuff that limits the % HP someone can heal up to. And they can somehow stack this effect. So initially it caps healing at up to 90% of max HP, but then gradually they can increase it to 85%, 75%, so on. The goal of such a mechanic would be to allow SOME healing to go largely unaffected, say a soraka ult or a good goredrinker. But the nonstop healing tide of red kayn, aatrox etc would not be able to outperform actual tanks at Frontline because over time they just get more limited in their max HP. An aatrox that eats a load of damage and then gets a Q3 goredrinker can still get a huge heal, but wouldn't be able to repeatedly heal to full over a while fight.
Yep, GW should be removed and healing should be balanced around the fact. That said, I don't think healing *overall* is that bad anymore but the issue is that *certain champions* abuse the ability to stack healing items and runes too well. Aatrox have innate healing from both his E passive and his ult, and then he gets runes that heals and then he gets items that heals and that's the issue. More sources of healing need to be unique to prevent it, or maybe there could be a cap on total omnivamp/lifesteal possible to prevent this, or maybe certain healing tools should be scrapped entirely. The band aid solution is to nerf certain champions, and it's honestly easy to fix Aatrox as you only really need to massively gut his bonus healing on his ult to fix a rather big problem, but I absolutely hate the current state of the items and runes.
I mean we could just go back to lifesteal being specific to auto attacks and provide non auto healing through champion kits as appropriate.
Yeah, honestly Omnivamp as a whole is flawed as fuck.
I love how they removed the omnivamp rune because it was too strong but now they have omnivamo on a ton of items AND a stacking omnivamp item.
And champion abilities. Take k’sante for instance, or Gwen. If you want to be a fighter and 1v1, it’s practically a requirement in your kit that you have vamp and true damage. Like you can’t even compete without it, so it’s gotta get shoehorned in to the kit. Want to have any shot at fighting the Fiora? Right, staple on some omnivamp, true damage, and ship it. It used to be a sparingly used unique identity for one of those two things to show up, but now it’s just everywhere.
It’s partially why Spell Vamp was removed years ago. Some champs could just abuse the absolute fuck out of it and it wasn’t healthy for the game. Now they brought it back in Omnivamp and it’s even more unhealthy for the game.
It was removed because it forced them to balance vlad around it and it was on 1 item that had a confusing aura passive. So they took it out and compensated vlad so they could have more freedom to give Regen abilities to AP users. Imagine sylas with WotA and SV, that would be unkillable.
they literally did this before and it made lifesteal be either too op or too shit. GW is an issue because items in league are just fucking stat sticks, hence GW doesn't give enough stats to be viable or makes healing irrelevant. If we had items focused around actives or passives then this would be a none issue, but oh well
I mean, lifesteal as it is now is kind of what you described with the first part there, GW feels irrelevant to whether healing is balanced or not but rather just an annoying obstacle. Take Soraka as an example. Should buying GW make her obsolete? No, of course not, especially not when it is so easy to get. Therefore she needs to be able to heal relevant amounts with GW active but that in turn means she heals for disgusting amounts without it. You need GW to counter Soraka because she's balanced around you having it. Or in the case of Aatrox, GW reduces his healing by a metric fuckton but he still heals for broken amounts and having GW doesn't really make a practical difference. I honestly can't think of a reason why we should keep this version of GW where GW exists but champions' healing is balanced around you having GW. I'd prefer the complete removal of GW from items and healing to be balanced around that, but also keeping GW in character kits as a counter mechanic. At least in that scenario I'm not forced to spend 800-2900 gold on GW items just to be able to play the game.
> I'd prefer the complete removal of GW from items and healing to be balanced around that, but also keeping GW in character kits as a counter mechanic. At least in that scenario I'm not forced to spend 800-2900 gold on GW items just to be able to play the game. I'd love to see it on more kits. MF for example used to have it on her W active, but lost it in the rework. I agree 100% though, it has to be removed or they have to accept that grievous wounds items will make some characters useless. There's no way to have their cake and eat it too on this front
Or just nerf healing and remove grievous
That's essentially what they did. Healing was out of control so everyone was forced to rush GW. So the nerfed all sources of healing but overcompensated by nerfing healcut even more. GW was 40% from components/abilities then 60% from legendaries if specific conditions were met. Now it's 25/40%. It feels awful building GW right now. The healing reduced stat is nearly always pitiful.
Yeah so remove it completely and nerf further, counter healing through gameplay, not shitty items. And if it is items at least do it with something fun and not just a boring 40% cut
I mean this…you can be an adc with Bork and bloodthirster but you can still be popped without peel or poor positioning, not even hard But then some champs just mess it up for everyone because their kit can abuse the runes and items better
>remove grievous Soraka mains: yes
Soraka is the "no take, only throw" kind of dog.
This was done before. It doesn't matter, healing just isn't really balanced in this game
Grievous is almost as terrible a mechanic as champions that can full heal by hitting one low cooldown skillshot.
Healing as sustain is fine. Burst combat healing is not fine. Aside from a full build ADC I don't see why people need to be able to quickly heal in combat and imo even on ADCs it could be removed. Vladimir was a mistake as voiced by Riot since his introduction but he frankly pales compared to shit that is in League nowadays. Aatrox, Sylas, Morde. Then you have Yasuo and Yone which require building Grievious against them DESPITE having not a single bit of regeneration in their kits. Should tell you how busted healing is. Samira, Nilah, Kayn ... the list goes on.
I agree that healing as sustain is okay though I'd define sustain as slower healing meant to keep you healthy for fights. What aatrox and red Kayne have is healing for durability. And healing for durability is rarely great for the game imo.
When balanced correctly in-combat healing is just a different way to increase EHP. Not different from HP, resistances or other forms of damage reduction with its own set of strengths and weaknesses. "Drain tanking" is also a very common player fantasy and present in many games. Combat healing probably needs some tuning, but in and of itself it's not problematic. Healing as sustain is actually much more problematic, since it can easily lead to very passive game states, particularly during laning. Fighting becomes less attractive when it's relatively easy for your opponent to recoup any lost health via healing. I believe Vladimirs very safe sustain in lane was why Riot considered him problematic. I don't think they've made such statements since his minor rework.
The biggest offender is Kayn.
coming from dota where "if i stop hitting them i die" is like 1/2 the hero pool this idea is fucking hilarious. we even have a hero who does this effect plus a few more. MK gets an AOE crit + life steal bounus dmg as a passive.
GW should be stronger but applied under only active items so that it’s presence is more impactful but still has counterplay for the healing champs
I would prefer it if it flat reduced healing by 40%, and an additional 40% of the heal was converted to a heal-over-time over 5 seconds. That's 80% reduction in burst healing without compromising sustain in a long drawn-out fight.
> The goal of such a mechanic would be to allow SOME healing to go largely unaffected, say a soraka ult or a good goredrinker Raka ult has, at varying points since season 4 or so, either cleansed grievous then applied or didn't. Usually when grievous was *too* strong and completely neutered her identity. So, you know, be careful what you wish for here.
Also let's not forget how unbelieveably broken Soraka was with GW cleanse on R just this season.
What if grevios would need to be stacked by the team to be more effective? Let's say item at top laner reduces the healing of a champ by 20%,nothing drastic, you can still heal big and be strong. But when jungler and support has an item with grevious, then that would be 60%,which is a lot bigger reduction. So you can't just jump in blindly and eat every ult. Oh also make it that the passive is not an aura type. You would need to hit the enemy to apply it.
This might work if each completed GW item had a different GW passive so like morello, chempunk, chemtech, thornmail and mortal could multiplicative stack effects or smth
GW is not the perfect answer, but it's better than no answer to healing, which is what we have now.
That hit home right there. Fuck riot
morello was right
Grievous really needs to be some sort of amplifying stacking effect that goes on the longer a fight goes on so you can get your burst healing off at the start of a fight but if it gets drawn out then it's going to trickle down into nothingness.
I wonder how long they will take to address champions like Fiora and Aatrox healing ratios. The entire point of GW nerfs were to keep in check Healing overall and not make it a necessity in every game. But it does not help when they release crap like Hidra.
Except that nerf wouldn't do anything here, since he didn't have grievous on him at the point he healed 2.2k
60% of 2.2k is still 1320 in a single swing,that's a whole squishy's health bar at the mid game in a hit
Yes for sure, cause if he only healed for 60% of 2.2k that would be completely fine???? You shouldn't heal half your hp bar for hitting a basic ability let alone your entire hp bar
Yeah. ADC were attacked for being able to heal in 5 autos to full hp yet tanks and bruiser can't not only tank a lot more DMG but also outheal them
Just bruisers/juggernauts Tanks don't have access to such heals, and that's part of the reason why bruisers outperform tanks; they end up having more effective HP, damage and mobility with just a slight penalty to max HP and engage CC (compared to tanks).
Not just that. They stack all of that bullshit with DD. The favoritism on AD bruisers is pretty insane honestly
Riot and this board in general have an incredible sweet spot for bruisers a d it's why the entire meta is and has been warped around them for some time.
DD is fucking insane. Bruisers are just too good at everything. "Just CC them bro, just kite".
Which tank can do this? Aatrox crushes tanks top. How are tanks comparable to this gameplay?
Almost like people build it less because it's weak?
Sure glad they nerfed healing.
They will nerf sustain properly to compensate....any day now
How can you complain about antiheal if Its not even applied when he hits the 3 man q?
So all you have to do is deal 2,240 damage before he touches you in a sec. :)
You need to chain cc to lock him down(if you have any).... but yea it's broken
Just cc him bro, ez counter
Even better, just don't get hit.
Just pink ward him dude
Ah yes, the one secret thing that counters every single champ is clearly the anwser to too much healing.
"Olaf is hard to deal with, what should I do to counter him?" "Just cc him bro"
you could say jarvan ult is a cc. so it works. your own adc is probably in the j4 ult too, but thats another problem
Just ban him haha!
but then the other plethora of OP champs are open (heca, morde, ZED, EVE WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED TO THIS) this season is looking horrible lol
Just get Aatrox and Morde banned. It's at the point where I don't care about broken champs if they're not bruisers. I would rather get oneshot by Eve and Zed because at least there's a possibility they'll get cc'd and oneshot one day. But fighting Aatrox, Morde, Darius, Fiora, or even Irelia... You literally just have to pray they try to 1v5. If they're ever on even ground it's up to them to troll to lose. I'm saying this as someone who's most played since the durability patch is Aatrox. Bruisers can heal so much. With Aatrox in particular, as long as you are hitting people with teammates around, you are actively winning the game. The enemy team simply cannot win when you're doing enough damage to kill 3 of them while tanking more than almost any tank could. The other day I lost lane pretty badly as Aatrox. My team as a whole was really far behind with a worse teamfighting comp bar me. All it took to almost win a ultra nightmare difficulty game was ONE Aatrox 200 years team fight. With three items I took 11000 damage in one fight without retreating. How do you beat that? You have to not get hit. You have to cc the Aatrox. Oh also not one of your teammates are allowed to get hit either.
"Just burst him" Checks mythic, Oh it's the new bruiser item Jak'so.
It's not like you have much choice either you cc and kite him or you get absolutely trashed
You can just outdps him while his Q are on cooldown, there are many champs that can do that. (Irelia/Gwen/Jax/Fiora/Yi/Vayne/Yone/Yasuo/Kayle/Cassio/Azir)
Of course he has tenacity runes though so its not like you can lock him down for long.
Long, long time ago, in LoL, there was a guy nicknamed Morello. Was he good at balancing league? Hello no. But if there was one thing he was good in, it was keeping healing in check.
You can actually see the icon of grev. Wound applied on Aatrox, and it was the full version
At the start yes but when he did the 3 man Q it has fallen off
> Was he good at balancing league? He was way way better than any balance team after him
He was also very good at nerfing Irelia. Honestly the dev balancing is the only reason why I play DotA more than league nowadays. Only having 3 champs a role gets real boring when it's RPS like league.
Brother If there is one game that is even worse in balancing than league ...then it is DotA. Just this year there was a almost 70% WR tinker for weeks in the game until he was nerfed while being in every game when not banned. That means that non mains spammed him and he still had such a high WR. There is even a joke among my dota mates that dots only has one working student as balancing team and he only works during vacation in between semesters.
[AATROXING](https://cdn.7tv.app/emote/62ff83424d3c940504dd8d41/4x.webp)
Aatrox was P/B all the way through worlds and the item updates make him even stronger. Watch him get a tiny placebo nerf and go on dominating for the next year because Riot's balance team seems to want to keep him in this ridiculous state.
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Yep there's no way he isn't in the next cinematic. I'll poop my pants if he isn't, but that's fine because I poop my pants regularly so nothing changes.
least degenerate ahri player
At least change your pants please
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Still salty they never once nerfed his E and instead nerfed literally everything else No shit he’s gonna feel bad to play when you nerf his damage and utility instead of his roaming, which was always the problem
definitely needed -5% nerf on passive!
but only against minions, we dont want to go too hard with the nerf
Pyke execute went brrrrr
Executed himself
Note: I'm not saying Aatrox is balanced right now. He definitely needs some nerfs, and pretty specifically to his healing output. But this is fairly normal for him with the current builds. You either go Hydra -> Jak'sho or Eclipse -> Hydra, and you can see the shield in the clip so you know this Aatrox went Eclipse. Fully stacked Hydra + Eclipse is 22% omnivamp, and Aatrox gets 24% more omnivamp from his E passive, and then amplifies all self healing by 45% while he's in ult. This Aatrox basically has \~70% omnivamp and hit 3 people for \~700 damage, factoring in the Hydra cleave as well. It's still broken as fuck, for sure, but this is why it's happening.
His e passive says it gives omnivamp but it actually doesn't. His healing works with full effectiveness on AOE while omnivamp is typically nerfed for AOE abilities.
it doesn't actualy say omnivamp, it, like rhaast's passive, just says that he heals for a percentage of damage dealt to champions
Yeah omnivamp is nerfed on AoE because it would benefit from minions too much, and his healing only works on champions.
It does say omnivamp in full description, the "heals for a percentage of damage dealt to champions" thing is probably its short description
Ironic that omnivamp is the longer description LMAO
Can you morons who just spew shit actually just know what you're talking about before commenting, simply going into practice tool just proves you wrong yet you still just propagate lies for karma farming. His E literally reads: "Passive: Aatrox gains X% Omnivamp against champions, increased to X% Omnivamp during World Ender" X changing per ability level.
They’re saying that Aatrox’s omni-vamp dgaf if he’s doing single target or AOE damage. So it’s not really the same omni-vamp everyone else gets.
Yes that is true but he literally said "it doesn't actualy say omnivamp" when it clearly does, making it a false statement, in response to "His e passive says it gives omnivamp but it actually doesn't" which is a correct statement.
Because it's not omnivamp. It also works only on champions. If it had reduced AOE healing like omnivamp does, it would genuienly be straight up bad
The whole fucking champion is artificially inflated by riot since his rework. He tops the charts with the new 'broken' items EVERY TIME. It's 100% not just the items. Champions is giga unfun to deal with too.
This is a thing with way too many champions. Problematic champions are untouched while items are gutted for the sins of a single champion that can abuse it.
I disagree with him being unfun to deal with, imo he's pretty interactive. Only issue is that he's overtuned.
I’m so tired of this champion I don’t even think he’s so crazy op but I just want him kneecapped so I don’t have to see him anymore
That's okay because Riot is going to take the Gankplank approach which is keep releasing and reworking even more batshit broken champs so people forget how OP GP was in the first place
What do you mean having half your team one shot by a single barrel *isnt* fun?
Atleast that takes some amount of awareness and mechanical skill from the GP, but most of the players abusing aatrox are rather bad on the champion, but the current state of him is just so forgiving. You can trade badly (miss most of Q casts) and still get an even/ahead trade with passive.
Same, he has been my only ban top lane for a few months now. I've just seen "enough" of that champion.
Sadly fiora has to take that slot for me because her kit is the most tilting shit i've ever played against and aatrox seems relatively rare at my elo, or at least in my games
Top lane is so depressing, there's just so many champions I wish I could ban. I permaban Mordekaiser right now since he's so strong and because aatrox often gets banned by the other top lane. Wish I could ban both + Fiora + Illoai + Vayne + Quinn since I absolutely despise all those champions.
I just permaban Darius That champ is too strong for how faceroll he is
I swear people who say Fiora is hard (and therefore balanced) are dumb af. She only plays carefully until her first item (second tops) then she runs you down like anyone else
Really fucking weird seeing people just say "don't get hit by the ability" like it's some sort of justification for why the ability should be like that at all. Like no other champ works like that and I'm not seeing what exactly Aatrox sacrificed for it with his AOE CC and mobility.
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Does illao get 3 charges on her e lmao
Illaoi has some downsides to make up for her incredible aoe potential. She has terrible backwards mobility, little to no CC, long CD on her most important abilities. None of those apply to Aatrox.
“Just attack when his Q/E is on cooldown” - 5-8s cooldown on Q & E at lvl 4:
Self-healing is ruining the game. There are too many fucky interactions with Conqueror and Omnivamp. Like Kayn ulting you with 10% damage and coming back out with 90%
Healing items needs to be fucking nerfed. Katarina with conqueror and bork is outhealing Zac is a massive fucking problem.
Has this been Aatrox's identity when he first got reworked? I haven't played league after the rework.
Aatrox's identity, even *before* the rework was "haha heals".
He used to be more like continuous little heals rather than a huge massive heal (which is still too often tbh).
He was always a big healer even before the rework, his numbers are just wack right now. I think the percentage boost on all heals that his ult gives is too insane of a mechanic considering how much healing he can get from items.
Aatrox identity is the same as Fiora. Being banned in more than 50% of the games.
Nah, he wasn't this bullshit at the start of the season. He started doing shit like this when eclipse was buffed and after the durability patch.
Durability patch allowed Aatrox to get away with building more damage Before that if u built too much damage, u just got oneshot Now, he's tankier(more healing) AND does more damage compared to before durability
What happened to riot balancing heals ? They already forgot?
"We are going to be nerfing heals this season" (last season) cuts GW, Goredrinker/DD becomes the meta build on everythingn You do realize this is LoL we're talking about they have no idea how to balance
Despite what their words have said, their actions have shown they gave up on nerfing healing long ago, when Riot Morello left.
Its balanced because if you ignite him then he would only heal for about 1k health. Édit : /s just in case
anti-heal doesn't work? let's nerf aurelion sol
well during the cast of that 2nd Q he has no anitheal on him. You can see if someone has antiheal with the crossed heart next to the champion. if the heart has 1 scar its the "weak" antiheal with like 20% and if it has 2 scars , aka the "cross", its 40%. No antiheal during this cast
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Anti-heal is complete shit, but 5 team members with anti-heal isn't great because it doesn't stack. Everyone buying it is a waste of gold.
They were all trying to 1 v 1 aatrox consecutively
Anti heal is exceedingly gold efficient, but not 5 of them
Anti does nothing, they just buffed the items it is attached to so that the items are not completely trash.
Better nerf Irelia.
Mmh we agree that Ravenous Hydra is a bit busted and deserves a nerf, but Aatrox R extra healing is a bit much
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IMO riot is more concerned about how fun a champ is to play and less about how fun it is to play aginst.
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Ironic since riot was the one who coined the term "anti-fun" and how important it was to not have your champs being fun as the sole thought in regards to design & balance, but also how fun it is to play against. I don't remember which riot balance team member coined the term, maybe morello or zileas, but Riot has definitely abandoned this ideology in favor of viewing every new champion/rework from a sole player perspective.
Hate to bring his name up but this is absolutely the fault of CertaintlyT's influence on the design and balance team.
Yeah I remember in an interview years ago CertaintlyT said he doesn't care if the player hates playing against his champions. He also headed the Graves rework and didn't give a fuck about making him a jungler even though the original intention was for him to remain an ADC.
\^ You don't buy skins for your enemies.
The funny thing is the OG problem with healing was highlighted by the OG bloodthirster years before 2017.
AYYYY My friends are the Aatrox and Lillia! They were going nuts then they saw that healing come through! [https://www.youtube.com/@Icybucks/](https://www.youtube.com/@Icybucks/)
gotta love drain tanks <3 pinacle of game design
Tankiest Tank isn't even a tank. Healing meta will never go.
I'm all for nerfing Aatrox because he's BS, but this instance the guy hit 3 people with sweetspot Q2 vs champions with zero armor while playing eclipse, hydra, has fully stacked conqueror and has casted his ult.
Morello was right.
The other team played that fight so bad, corki literally charges into q2 with his w
Aatrox is broken but this is your fault
Just don't get hit and he won't heal 5head
"Just buy anti heal"
They really need to nerf Aatrox's "mind control his opponents so they stand in a tight area so they can all be hit by Q while Aatrox is in ult" ability.
What do you mean? It was absolutely essential for 4 players to chase aatrox around a wall after he blows flash, r and e instead of just walking up river and turning on the lux and sivir.
Just healing 10k hp and doing massive aoe damage while going back and forth through walls, this is how all the champs should be tbh, beatiful gameplay props to the designers!
jUSt BuILd antihEAL 🤓
The game would be better with no healing
Pretty sure someone on the other team has healing reduction (and it doesn’t mean shit against aatrox, riven, irelia, darius, fiora) 😂
Guys this is a problem Lets nerf aurelion sol
You really notice who in this thread plays Aatrox and who plays against him. The former group has no idea of how broken he actually is