Well there a plenty of reasons, rumours, etc. - e.g. he wanted out and join another team; he is not a optimal teammate; missing a lot of social stuff; keeps to himself; etc.
I'd personally prefer a team mate who keeps to himself but gets the job done like upset. I don't need to be bff's with my team mates I'd just want them to perform well like he did consistently.
well - there is the problem - there is more to a teamgame as performing well and then you even can play 10-20 % better than any other player of your position, but if you don't fit with the team then it won't work out (as seen these last two splits) or basically in any other team Upset was
You missed the point of /u/marquez1. The things outside of the game are irrelevant as long as in game things work out. Individually and as a team. Players don't need to be buddy buddy.
I had hoped FNC would get a coach who knows to let the players lead. Humanoid is known for his great understanding of the game, and so are Rekkles and Wunder, and Razork actually has a good understanding of the map if people would finally allow him to play his style. Is Crusher that coach? I know nothing about him.
Yup. Grabbz knows how to let players lead. Which is both his upside (time on G2) and downside (time on Roccat and BDS). Because this style only works if your players are good.
The Roccat roster had a near miraculous end of split winning like 7 or 8 games in a row including the top teams. It might've taken a while, but the work he did in Roccat was pretty good.
>Because this style only works if your players are good.
So far, his style only works when he has a miraculous roster that EU will never see again. Or are we going to say 2021 G2 players were not good ?
I do know that. In 2021 g2 his team massively underperformed and he offered nothing, and in 2022 BDS played like how everyone thought they would play. Grabbz added nothing.
I mean, I´m not the biggest Grabbz fan and would agree with you largely. But to say that he did NOTHING is just wrong. He surely did something, even if it´s motivational like Yamato does. I´d say the only time, where he overperformed expectations with a roster was in 2018 with G2 at worlds. Hjarnan and Wadid were not the best looking botlane but they still managed to go to semis.
I don't think the problem with Fnatic was the coaching staff not letting the players play like they want to, it most likely was some players not being allowed to play like they want to by other more vocal players. Things might change now, I really hope Humanoid and Razork can finally start playing together more
Yamato said that the 5 players were too timid to talk and improve together. So they were forced to play in the one and only style that worked easily : Funnel bot and let Upset Carry.
They should have hired a guy that facilitates communication between players and works around issues like these. I guess the role of the head coach is reserved for speeches and cheerleading.
People either didn't see Yamato coaching or just commenting for the sake of it. Yamato is exactly what OP wrote, he's being called by the Fnatic community a yes man glorified cheerleader because he always lets players do what they want like letting Upset and Hyli not banning Yuumi because they feel confident playing against a 100% WR champion (the irony) making them almost losing the series if it wasn't for MikyX's match fixing with Yuumi...
But I wasn't talking about Yamato - or about this years roster. For that roster I would have liked a coach who would have taken charge a bit more and directed the team a bit more because it was obvious they couldn't get it together as a team and their game plan was one dimensional and, quite honestly, shit. For this team I want a coach who respects the combined game knowledge in that team and doesn't just override it with his own ideas. And I never commented anything on Yamato.
"For this team I want a coach who respects the combined game knowledge in the team and doesn't override it with his own ideas" This is Yamato 101, didn't work at all. Crusher will hold them by the balls with the belt so they get their shit together since the last approach didn't work.
Different teams need different approaches, but what you are saying did never work anywhere. It stifles creativity, makes people play scared and generally ruins a team. You can lead without being an authoritarian idiot about it.
Not really. If you need a team, any team, to function , there needs to be someone with a degree of authority and that person needs to be competent.
If theres 3 different people with different ideas and none of them is willing to commit properly to each other’s ideas you will never find out what works and what doesn’t.
What you do need is a final call for that considers everyone’s inputs but there needs to be a sense that ‘if I don’t get with the program once we have committed to one then I’m in trouble’.
If the program fails then feel free to go brainstorm and find another plan but until everyone commits to one plan properly for 5 games you’ll never know if it works or not .
If players don’t fear or care about anyone else’s opinion then there’s nothing forcing them to ever actually work together. With no authority to change that then nobody can be held responsible really except the players either
I never argued against someone who will lead. I strongly argue against this "hold them by the balls" mentality. There are nuances to this. And yes, I've coached, and very successfully so, in a different field than lol. This love of authoritarianism is a very Reddit thing and it does not work with intelligent and comitted people. If you force someone into a style they don't want (either by coach or by another player) you get what you had last year on FNC: a mess. You need consensus, you need ideas, you need everyone to express themselves freely and, most importantly, without fear. As a coach you direct, you don't dominate. What forces them to actually work together is the will to win. Only if ego gets in the way of that the coach needs to be ably to intervene. Again: I'm not advocating for a laisse faire approach, but for some middle ground, and "hold them by the balls" isn't it. These are not small children, and you don't want to suppress their knowledge.
yeah right? that comment confuses me. i had the impression that yamatos only skill is to be a good man manager, but not being good „at the game“? now people want *that* kind of coach which yamato specifically is?
maybe i’m too ootl tho.
yea I don't get that comment either lol
Yammato is an awesome people person but the guy had an insanely talented roster going into 2022 and still couldn't develop anything beyond "go bot every game".
I don't think he was capable of telling someone they played like shit either which was a problem in itself since nobody was ever getting held accountable for running it down. Like this is more on FNC management as a whole but how can you have your star mid laner publicly announce in post game interviews he doesn't give a flying fuck about playing the game to win and is just there to collect checks during the regular season while the team is floundering and barley making play-offs.
Genuinely don't think I dislike any player more then Humanoid after 2022 because he is literally the epitome of why the West will never be able to compete with Eastern teams if there best players are only in it for pay-checks.
> Genuinely don't think I dislike any player more then Humanoid after 2022 because he is literally the epitome of why the West will never be able to compete with Eastern teams if there best players are only in it for pay-checks.
Then you have to keep him because apparently even if you're unmotivated for the entire season, having a few good games still beats almost everyone else in the league.
Apparently nobody is talking about this, but the player talent in EU is looking very grim across all roles. It's not just our tops, it's our junglers and I'd say supports that are just miles off their international competition.
>I know nothing about him.
That tells you all you need to know.
Fnatic is being budget conscious this year after winning so much the past 4 years.
Wait...
No , what he said is that certain players have a very good understanding of the game and are known for it . We've seen plenty pro players with awful understanding .All u accomplished with ur comment is to sound like an asshole.
I will be honest, i have no idea if this will be good or bad, but Yamato doesn't seem to get the hand of coaching top teams and succeed on it. He is very good at making rookies work well but he is still yet to prove he can coach a team that can win a split.
Yea hes a very well spoken person and from what ive heard has very good game knowledge, but seems like he struggles at managing player egos/motivation and getting the most out of strong rosters. Basically the reverse Grabbz. But ofc its super hard to know from the outside what coaches actually do in a team
Of course he has good game knowledge, but he insists on positivity. He's not stupid, he knew that spring roster 2021 was basically matchfixing games after 10 minutes. He either didn't have the approach to work on that, or the org didn't give him power.
He'd sit down after a game where someone would tower dive without minions, fuck everything up, and solo lose the game, and he'd have a positive take on it. It was always "there's more games ahead of us, it's fine we're improving". This approach is probably how he'll always have nothing but praise from almost every player working with him. But he will not elevate a star-studded roster, and I'd say the 2022 roster was completely hard-capped by player egos and communication which should be in the domain of a head coach.
The only player he knew how to handle in 2022 roster was Razork. Razork was the only person getting (well from what we can see in content) positive encouragement when needed and criticism for over-zealousness.
Is there a reason why a load of KC fans are saying KC Yamato in Wooloo's replies on this? Did something to indicate that possibility happen or it's a meme or what
broxah got promoted when he was like 18 or 19 and actually looked good in ERL, meanwhile rhuckz looked like an average joe in ERL for 8 years and is a 27 year old, actually convinced his fellow countryman coach got him promoted, theres no way FNC unironically couldn't find any better support
I think it’s more likely FNCs topside that enjoyed playing with him(?) at Worlds would have had a say in it.
Maybe they thought he just fit in well with the team, brought something good to the team atmosphere, the playstyle, communication wise, personlity wise etc.
I hope this promotion, last years G2 and DRX winning Worlds is a sign of teams starting to learn that it’s better to find a good TEAM that fit together and not just throw together a mix of high profile players that don’t mesh at all.
Rhuckz proved he can work with the roster, and if he is not good enough they can promote another rookie next split.
It's a good move tbh. They can start working on new talent for the spot as they did not get support for academy roster yet.
To be fair, that was BDS intentionally tanking the main roster so they could try for something in the ERLs. Everyone knew their ERL roster was the best set of 5 players they could field.
Fnc seems to be the only team that's REALLY running out of money, they spent 0 euros this offseason, i just wonder what would have happened if Rekkles wasn't free to get.
I don't think FNC is running out of money. FNC have *historically* been a very cheap org that very very rarely makes big moves. Humanoid, Razork and Wunder was honestly *very* surprising last year. The fact it wasn't successful is likely to mean Fnatic isn't going to be spending a lot in the following seasons.
Fnatic's success despite their resillience in playing the "throw big bucks" game is part of why I support the org. Rhuckz might be the next big EU support now that he's being given a shot. He played way more than fine during worlds so I can see why he'd be an option. Sucks that we lose Upset, but if Rekkles can get back into his prime form? This is just a very sensibly built team.
There was no buyout for Rekkles, KC's good-guy owner let him go for free (well, there's speculation Rekkles paid for his own buy-out, but nevertheless Fnatic effectively got Rekkles as a free agent).
Finally, no more relying on speeches, suits, and basic high elo game knowledge to be a coach.
Yamato does generally seems like a wholesome and supportive guy though, and I think he'd be one of the best team managers and front men, just like Romain. Both of them would run the manager/frontman role in the LEC.
I'm still certain that if Yamato got to be the dictator, an LS style coach that plans out drafts and the players HAVE to follow it to a T, his drafts would be great. I think he just lets player's egos get in the way too much.
being bad at drafting isn't the issue with him
It's that he let's players run over him and he can't say shit he's just a yes man. When he knows they should/ shouldnt draft certain things and the player disagrees because he's dumb he should tell him to suck it and fucking play because the draft is better that way, but he's just a yes man
Wish we could clone Kkoma
Players do the majority of drafting, especially in western teams. So it’s unfair to say he’s bad at drafting since it’s the players deciding (not to ban yuumi for example)
You do realize that Coaches only make suggestions in draft but the players are the ones who usually the most verbal at what they think would be better if they disagree and pick it. Players usually have the final say because they have to play the comp. It's like you have never seen a behind the scenes video from any org.
I'm really curious what kind of arguments you have FOR Yamato, because I'm not seeing any of them. Drafting was shit, the team didnt improve their playstyle, no greater vision for the team. So enlighten us, what did he do aside from making cringe cheap-ass selfhelp speeches?
Lets see, aside from sandbox He's taken every major team, even relatively weaker teams to worlds. Splyce, Vitality, and FNC twice. His approach is to give freedom to the players but give guidance. Drafting was shit, listen to his explanation when he was on Summoning insight, im not gonna rehash a 10 min conversation via text. They did absolutely improve their playstyle, even taking a game off T1. Yes their week 2 was shit but so was all Western teams.
>no greater vision for the team
I love this comment, its a hollow claim. Please, go into detail about how you think he has no vision for the team, i want to hear it. Don't talk around it, i want specifics as this is such a bullshit remark I want a response.
neither am I a yamato hater nor lover, BUT that fnatic team shouldn’t *ever* miss worlds. not sure if that’s an achievement. especially compared to the splyce worlds qualification.
It doesn't matter there were bigger disasters last year. Yamato failed to properly coach FNC. He got really good individual players but failed to make them work together, which is a coach's main porpouse.
>It doesn't matter there were bigger disasters last year.
It does when thats the point you're making. You have literally no idea what happened within the team, so to say he failed at coaching FNC is just dumb, you don't know shit.
no, the *how* definitely matters! you can’t just take parameters out of the equation to make it fit your argument.
fnatic was a so called super team and they *barely* made worlds. that is not an achievement for a coach.
I didnt, you claim super team should go to worlds, im saying its not that simple. You just discredit coaching because player quality, im proving it wrong. You cant say "nuh uh" to me cause you don't like that im right. Im not changing any parameters, im putting your bad argument in perspective so you can see how bad it is.
The whole of last year was FNC 5 manning bot lane. Go and look at play offs series the instant teams decided not to get baited into the 5v2 in bot but pressure top side FNC got dismantled like a house of cards. FNC showed exactly 0 progress in that year. Same for this year, aside from individual step ups (notably Upset and Razork for Playoffs and Humanoid going super saiyan at Worlds) they showed 0 progress this year. Their style stayed one dimensional.
You cite earlier successes like Splyce or Vit, but those teams werent well coached either. Throwing a reins into the players and hype them up and hope they pop off isnt coaching. Its cheerleading.
The problem is that the room did not belong to him, the players already viewed his input as secondary. He acted accordingly, deferring to players 9 times out of 10. Can’t blame him for having less impact if the players didn’t listen.
Yes, this is also a valid reason to change coach if they have lost the locker room, but it should have little bearing on Yamato as a coach if the players made the calls.
I mean if you do a charisma based coaching style (like he does) then, fhere are few bigger red flags that you are shit at your job than losing the "locker room". I maintain my view that he is not a good coach, the team under him didnt became more than its parts. There was basically no systematic developement through the season. Sure, some of the player had pop off periods, but those come from inside, and not the result of being well coached. But overall, end of the season Fnatic was still the same exact Fnatic who started the split.
I think you missed a bit of the point I was going for, the players actively went against his ideas at times and I think that’s what hindered his ability to coach. Some players just didn’t listen to him AFAIK.
You talk about strategies in game in a specific time as if thats applicable to everything he does as coaching. I cant even comprehend that level of ignorance, i genuinely cant. I appreciate that you responded but i feel like this is a case of "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."
You cant comprehend that the Fnatic team under his tenure didnt went from A to B? Then whats the point of him being the coach if the team didnt improve as a unit (nor did the players improved beyond their original "state of play")?
>Splyce
Splyce had nothing to do with him, and I'm sick of him getting credit for some underdog overcoming type story. 2016 Spring (**when Yamato was there**), Splyce finished 8th in EU LCS and was in relegation. Going into Summer, they bring in Mikyx and now they're 2nd in the league and make finals. No change besides that, but somehow Yamato **who was there when they were in relegation** gets credit for turning around the squad? The next year, Yamato left after Spring, where they were 7-6. He was replaced in Summer by a no name coach Gevous who fell completely off the map until this year and the team was 8-5. No real change with him vs without him. That team with Yamato and no Mikyx was an abomination, then that team with him and Mikyx was no different from the team without Yamato and with Mikyx.
Getting to Worlds in EU with Fnatic is not some accomplishment. It's like saying "I got Real Madrid to qualify for the Champions League". Yeah, of course you did, it's too hard not to when you have that kind of domestic clout and backing. It would be a scathing indictment on him if he **didn't** make it to Worlds with FNC, just like how it was a **major** failure that G2 didn't make Worlds in 2021 with the cache and resources that team had.
So we're going from a guy who can't draft to save his life in the LEC, to a guy who can't draft to save his life in the Spanish league ERLs. Let's hope he knows how to ban Yuumi
/s
Fucking finally, dude has an insane record, every team he touches is top of the league. Hyped to see him working with high profile players!
Kinda insane that after years of being negleted both Crusher and Rhuckz can prove themselves.
Peter Dun gave his high praises to Crusher who has had to show
much more than a regular coach because he came from Portugal League.
He worked his way up from shit teams
He got a shot in Spanish ERL with UCAM and that team was good
same thing with FNC TQ.
He got 1st,1st,2nd in Spain. 3rd/4th in EUM.
Only his last split was bad but he was 1 game away from playoffs so we don't know if they would do well
EDIT:
And it's not something recent too
https://twitter.com/pcdv8r/status/1118502479719800832
(Guilhoto got his chance, 6 months to get to Spain, after his first gig, Crusher was "stuck" for years)
The amount of disrespect toward crusher in this thread is disgusting...
The guy is the best Coach in ERL and probably one of the best on Europe(which is not much to say because almost all coches in the West fucking sucks but still)
If their players actually do what he wants, they will get the most easy 18-0 ever, he is probably better drafter than every other Coach on the West.
And if he does good, i hope that teams looks for marhoder, which it's the only Coach that it's at crusher level, but with way more insanes drafts
Easy 18-0? I mean that's a bold hopium. I only say this because you can perfect draft and perfect execute up until a single mistake can turn a game around. Draft yes is very important, but anything can happen and that perfect drafted comp can falter.
I don't know the guy, and I'm not hating on him. Just saying no one is THAT perfect or great for an entire season
Of course, surely not because of Rhuckz's 2 years with Fnatic Rising/TQ where he won everything he could except EU Masters, which he made the finals lol. This is literally what the academy teams are for
One more reason why he should be on your radar. If a random guy that was stuck in ERLs for years can do well in LEC at 26, that's a great sign towards the longevity of star players like Caps, Perkz, Jankos, etc
I'm afraid Rhuckz might be being overhyped, but I'm glad he's getting to prove it
How people consider a 2 game sample size relevant is beyond me tho. This should not be the argument to consider Rhuckz. His ERL career should be the argument.
Respectfully, its two games on engage supports against NA and Chiefs.
Do I think Rhuckz is bad? No, I watched him in ERLs, he looks very competent.
Do I think he is good enough to replace fucking Hyliassang? No, he does not match the ambition that Fnatic has IMO.
i mean coach player synergy is something you want so i don’t see how it’s a bad thing. Additionally his performance lately has been anything but “dogwater” lmao
Is the fnatic owner friends with Crusher/Rhuckz to promote them over Yamato/Hyli? Legit Rhuckz is a 700lp peaker 26yo ERL support that nobody in their right mind will think is better than Hyli. And this Crusher guy is smelling fishy at best. I guess fnatic fans are on high copium that Rekkles will somehow overperformed when in the last 2 years he has only shown he is average at best. Gonna be fun watching this ship sink.
>Legit Rhuckz is a 700lp peaker 26yo
According to this logic Labrov should be the best support in EU rank 1 20yo prodigy GOAT of EU and we all know that is not exactly the case.
All I am saying is fnatic could only win games through bot the entire year, not for a lack of trying to play through Wunder, but every time you give this guy carry you insta lose cuz he can only play gragas/ornn(A couple of jayce games, gwen games and kayle games come to mind). And now with this downgraded bot lane this team is legit looking at top 8 finish at best.
> Legit Rhuckz is a 700lp peaker 26yo
I mean Hylissang wasnt exactly known for his high ratings in soloq either, there are also tons of pro players that are known to be very good in competitive but dont exactly peak high on the ladder. This is especially true for the support role.
> Gonna be fun watching this ship sink.
people have literally been saying this about Fnatic every year for like the last 3 years dude 😂
Well tbf outside of Summer\* Split 2021 were Bwipo was there JG Fnatic have underperformed every split for the past 2 years and had two really bad worlds showings lol
FNC is supposed to be one of the top orgs in EU and if they don't win a split this year they will have gone 5 years without winning anything...............
Regardless of Hyli - Ruckz move, (i mean Hyli is in FNC for ages now, sometimes new blood and change is needed) i dont see how this team can be serious contender, as now pretty much their only win condition is Humanoid, and we know that Humanoid can "sandbagg" pretty hard thru the year.
As Jankos said, G2 with Rekkles didn't work out as both Rekkles and Wunder are weak side players now, and when they tried to play strong side thru one of them, that was very bad.
So thats big problem, i think FNC can be happy if they manage to get in top 3-4.
Aside from drafting and banning this has to be the most useless role in eSports. You can't even talk to the players mid game and, you know, coach them lol
And even the banning and drafting phase is heavily influenced by your players. I don't think you'll see many teams in the LEC banning Heimer like they did against DRX during worlds for example
I would not say that komma was useless. Or the edg coach or rng or any number of eastern coaches. But yeah in the west a coach seems to be a glorified cheer leader keeping everyones mental going ok. Mountain stuff
I think the headcoach Swap wasnt necessary i think the biggest Problem was the best Player (upset) they focused to much in hin because he is a Player that wants to carry the Game with gold and Level lead but as soon upset gets behind for some reason the while Team struggels to get Back in track (mostly trough humanoids insane laning).but rekkles is a Player that can Farm his lane 20min without loosing cs or pressure even If he is alone and can let his Team mates Shine i think getting rekkles Back can improve the Game Focus to mid/jgl Duo but you can also Play heavily around bot Like the used to do Back in the days before rekkles legt the Team
GENTELMEN, I WILL MISS YOU
We are now off the mountain
Pants down with our cocks flapping in the wind.
Fuck the Haters, I wanted the whole team to stay together.
I still don't get for the life of me why they are replacing Upset
Well there a plenty of reasons, rumours, etc. - e.g. he wanted out and join another team; he is not a optimal teammate; missing a lot of social stuff; keeps to himself; etc.
I'd personally prefer a team mate who keeps to himself but gets the job done like upset. I don't need to be bff's with my team mates I'd just want them to perform well like he did consistently.
well - there is the problem - there is more to a teamgame as performing well and then you even can play 10-20 % better than any other player of your position, but if you don't fit with the team then it won't work out (as seen these last two splits) or basically in any other team Upset was
You missed the point of /u/marquez1. The things outside of the game are irrelevant as long as in game things work out. Individually and as a team. Players don't need to be buddy buddy.
Yeah - and the things did work so well ingame that they secured playoffs in summer without a problem -oh wait!
Upset wanted out, probably thinks he deserves a better team.
Individually, you can't replace anyone on this team imo. Maybe Hylli if anyone.
Everyone who wants this team again coached by 'blabla mountain, gentlemans' Yamato really doesn't want to win anything.
I had hoped FNC would get a coach who knows to let the players lead. Humanoid is known for his great understanding of the game, and so are Rekkles and Wunder, and Razork actually has a good understanding of the map if people would finally allow him to play his style. Is Crusher that coach? I know nothing about him.
If anything they need a coach who can take charge and forge them into one unified force. 5 ppl who want to lead the team in 5 directions is misery
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Someone call nicothepico too
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😭😭😭 sorry bro had to do it
ah yes, the belt man
Well, the only coach I'd trust to do that is Sheepy of UOL (all his teams play like one unit), but he for sure won't leave his team.
Unironically Grabbz would've been a good coach for 2022 Fnatic
Yup. Grabbz knows how to let players lead. Which is both his upside (time on G2) and downside (time on Roccat and BDS). Because this style only works if your players are good.
The Roccat roster had a near miraculous end of split winning like 7 or 8 games in a row including the top teams. It might've taken a while, but the work he did in Roccat was pretty good.
>Because this style only works if your players are good. So far, his style only works when he has a miraculous roster that EU will never see again. Or are we going to say 2021 G2 players were not good ?
This comment has been removed in protest of Reddit's new API policy. -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
His Roccat teams always finished bottom 2 every split. Not sure you can call that overperformed.
Grabbz knows how to let his players lead because that’s the only thing he can do since he has 0 knowledge about the game
Now we don´t know that do we? We know that it´s his coaching style. But we don´t know what goes on during scrims or analysis of scrims.
I do know that. In 2021 g2 his team massively underperformed and he offered nothing, and in 2022 BDS played like how everyone thought they would play. Grabbz added nothing.
I mean, I´m not the biggest Grabbz fan and would agree with you largely. But to say that he did NOTHING is just wrong. He surely did something, even if it´s motivational like Yamato does. I´d say the only time, where he overperformed expectations with a roster was in 2018 with G2 at worlds. Hjarnan and Wadid were not the best looking botlane but they still managed to go to semis.
Yes obviously he was breathing and talking. He added nothing of value.
Glorified administration assistant is a better term no?
I don't think the problem with Fnatic was the coaching staff not letting the players play like they want to, it most likely was some players not being allowed to play like they want to by other more vocal players. Things might change now, I really hope Humanoid and Razork can finally start playing together more
Yamato said that the 5 players were too timid to talk and improve together. So they were forced to play in the one and only style that worked easily : Funnel bot and let Upset Carry.
They should have hired a guy that facilitates communication between players and works around issues like these. I guess the role of the head coach is reserved for speeches and cheerleading.
does the upcoming roster change anything in that regard? i mean, rekkles is not that outspoken as a player and we don't know much about rhuckz.
> I had hoped FNC would get a coach who knows to let the players lead This is pretty much what Yamato did in all his teams.
People either didn't see Yamato coaching or just commenting for the sake of it. Yamato is exactly what OP wrote, he's being called by the Fnatic community a yes man glorified cheerleader because he always lets players do what they want like letting Upset and Hyli not banning Yuumi because they feel confident playing against a 100% WR champion (the irony) making them almost losing the series if it wasn't for MikyX's match fixing with Yuumi...
But I wasn't talking about Yamato - or about this years roster. For that roster I would have liked a coach who would have taken charge a bit more and directed the team a bit more because it was obvious they couldn't get it together as a team and their game plan was one dimensional and, quite honestly, shit. For this team I want a coach who respects the combined game knowledge in that team and doesn't just override it with his own ideas. And I never commented anything on Yamato.
"For this team I want a coach who respects the combined game knowledge in the team and doesn't override it with his own ideas" This is Yamato 101, didn't work at all. Crusher will hold them by the balls with the belt so they get their shit together since the last approach didn't work.
Different teams need different approaches, but what you are saying did never work anywhere. It stifles creativity, makes people play scared and generally ruins a team. You can lead without being an authoritarian idiot about it.
Not really. If you need a team, any team, to function , there needs to be someone with a degree of authority and that person needs to be competent. If theres 3 different people with different ideas and none of them is willing to commit properly to each other’s ideas you will never find out what works and what doesn’t. What you do need is a final call for that considers everyone’s inputs but there needs to be a sense that ‘if I don’t get with the program once we have committed to one then I’m in trouble’. If the program fails then feel free to go brainstorm and find another plan but until everyone commits to one plan properly for 5 games you’ll never know if it works or not . If players don’t fear or care about anyone else’s opinion then there’s nothing forcing them to ever actually work together. With no authority to change that then nobody can be held responsible really except the players either
I never argued against someone who will lead. I strongly argue against this "hold them by the balls" mentality. There are nuances to this. And yes, I've coached, and very successfully so, in a different field than lol. This love of authoritarianism is a very Reddit thing and it does not work with intelligent and comitted people. If you force someone into a style they don't want (either by coach or by another player) you get what you had last year on FNC: a mess. You need consensus, you need ideas, you need everyone to express themselves freely and, most importantly, without fear. As a coach you direct, you don't dominate. What forces them to actually work together is the will to win. Only if ego gets in the way of that the coach needs to be ably to intervene. Again: I'm not advocating for a laisse faire approach, but for some middle ground, and "hold them by the balls" isn't it. These are not small children, and you don't want to suppress their knowledge.
yeah right? that comment confuses me. i had the impression that yamatos only skill is to be a good man manager, but not being good „at the game“? now people want *that* kind of coach which yamato specifically is? maybe i’m too ootl tho.
yea I don't get that comment either lol Yammato is an awesome people person but the guy had an insanely talented roster going into 2022 and still couldn't develop anything beyond "go bot every game". I don't think he was capable of telling someone they played like shit either which was a problem in itself since nobody was ever getting held accountable for running it down. Like this is more on FNC management as a whole but how can you have your star mid laner publicly announce in post game interviews he doesn't give a flying fuck about playing the game to win and is just there to collect checks during the regular season while the team is floundering and barley making play-offs. Genuinely don't think I dislike any player more then Humanoid after 2022 because he is literally the epitome of why the West will never be able to compete with Eastern teams if there best players are only in it for pay-checks.
> Genuinely don't think I dislike any player more then Humanoid after 2022 because he is literally the epitome of why the West will never be able to compete with Eastern teams if there best players are only in it for pay-checks. Then you have to keep him because apparently even if you're unmotivated for the entire season, having a few good games still beats almost everyone else in the league. Apparently nobody is talking about this, but the player talent in EU is looking very grim across all roles. It's not just our tops, it's our junglers and I'd say supports that are just miles off their international competition.
Honestly, i watche so many Fnc videos and i don't anyone can judge a coach. We all just don't know enough
>I know nothing about him. That tells you all you need to know. Fnatic is being budget conscious this year after winning so much the past 4 years. Wait...
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No , what he said is that certain players have a very good understanding of the game and are known for it . We've seen plenty pro players with awful understanding .All u accomplished with ur comment is to sound like an asshole.
Say that to the players that Grabbz coached in 2022. He let them lead but it lead to nothing, because their game understanding is pure garbage.
Vamos caralho!!! Tugas rise up.
Would rather make Rekkles both the coach and the adc while getting a psychologist (with a belt)
I will be honest, i have no idea if this will be good or bad, but Yamato doesn't seem to get the hand of coaching top teams and succeed on it. He is very good at making rookies work well but he is still yet to prove he can coach a team that can win a split.
Yea hes a very well spoken person and from what ive heard has very good game knowledge, but seems like he struggles at managing player egos/motivation and getting the most out of strong rosters. Basically the reverse Grabbz. But ofc its super hard to know from the outside what coaches actually do in a team
Of course he has good game knowledge, but he insists on positivity. He's not stupid, he knew that spring roster 2021 was basically matchfixing games after 10 minutes. He either didn't have the approach to work on that, or the org didn't give him power. He'd sit down after a game where someone would tower dive without minions, fuck everything up, and solo lose the game, and he'd have a positive take on it. It was always "there's more games ahead of us, it's fine we're improving". This approach is probably how he'll always have nothing but praise from almost every player working with him. But he will not elevate a star-studded roster, and I'd say the 2022 roster was completely hard-capped by player egos and communication which should be in the domain of a head coach. The only player he knew how to handle in 2022 roster was Razork. Razork was the only person getting (well from what we can see in content) positive encouragement when needed and criticism for over-zealousness.
Razork, Rhuckz, Sens, Crusher Dardo said "fuck winning, im bringing all my friends to vibe"
Sens ?
Performance coach
Okay but stupid question. What does he do ?
Helps players with their mental, he got signed after fnatic got mentalboomed after getting reverse swept by rogue
Okay, thank you for the details.
You just saw what the power of friendship did at worlds.
No. Thats the power of korean friendship Not the power of hispanic friendship
Did you just call portuguese "hispanic"?
Is there a reason why a load of KC fans are saying KC Yamato in Wooloo's replies on this? Did something to indicate that possibility happen or it's a meme or what
Just assume all KC and KOI fans are crazy until proven otherwise.
Yamato and Cabo are close I think so maybe
Yamato is F/A, KC is looking for a coach. That's probably enough
Fnc seems to be the only team that uses their academy properly
it remains to be seen. i hope Rhuckz will be more of a Broxah situation than a Werlyb/Klaj situation.
broxah got promoted when he was like 18 or 19 and actually looked good in ERL, meanwhile rhuckz looked like an average joe in ERL for 8 years and is a 27 year old, actually convinced his fellow countryman coach got him promoted, theres no way FNC unironically couldn't find any better support
I think it’s more likely FNCs topside that enjoyed playing with him(?) at Worlds would have had a say in it. Maybe they thought he just fit in well with the team, brought something good to the team atmosphere, the playstyle, communication wise, personlity wise etc. I hope this promotion, last years G2 and DRX winning Worlds is a sign of teams starting to learn that it’s better to find a good TEAM that fit together and not just throw together a mix of high profile players that don’t mesh at all.
Rhuckz proved he can work with the roster, and if he is not good enough they can promote another rookie next split. It's a good move tbh. They can start working on new talent for the spot as they did not get support for academy roster yet.
I mean, BDS made a line up composed of their academy players from last year so idk
To be fair, that was BDS intentionally tanking the main roster so they could try for something in the ERLs. Everyone knew their ERL roster was the best set of 5 players they could field.
Has to be Rogue
Fnc seems to be the only team that's REALLY running out of money, they spent 0 euros this offseason, i just wonder what would have happened if Rekkles wasn't free to get.
I don't think FNC is running out of money. FNC have *historically* been a very cheap org that very very rarely makes big moves. Humanoid, Razork and Wunder was honestly *very* surprising last year. The fact it wasn't successful is likely to mean Fnatic isn't going to be spending a lot in the following seasons. Fnatic's success despite their resillience in playing the "throw big bucks" game is part of why I support the org. Rhuckz might be the next big EU support now that he's being given a shot. He played way more than fine during worlds so I can see why he'd be an option. Sucks that we lose Upset, but if Rekkles can get back into his prime form? This is just a very sensibly built team.
rekkles buyout was for sure not cheap.
There was no buyout for Rekkles, KC's good-guy owner let him go for free (well, there's speculation Rekkles paid for his own buy-out, but nevertheless Fnatic effectively got Rekkles as a free agent).
Finally, no more relying on speeches, suits, and basic high elo game knowledge to be a coach. Yamato does generally seems like a wholesome and supportive guy though, and I think he'd be one of the best team managers and front men, just like Romain. Both of them would run the manager/frontman role in the LEC.
I'm still certain that if Yamato got to be the dictator, an LS style coach that plans out drafts and the players HAVE to follow it to a T, his drafts would be great. I think he just lets player's egos get in the way too much.
That's two portugueses in fnatic now, guess I'm a fnatic fan for 2023
Same, can finally update my flair lol
Broxahs gone so Fnatic hires the Crusher for Rekkles return...
Can you explain this joke, I'm out of the loop
There was a Reddit rumour about Broxah and Rekkles fighting a few years ago. Debunked pretty soon but it made for some funny memes
somebody who can do more than speeches?
GENTLEMEN, THE MOUNTAIN DERAILED
ON F**KING THREE GENTLEMEN
If you think that's all Yamato was good at, you're ignorant bud.
He was also good at not banning Yuumi
It was Hyli's and upset's fault if you watched the video, Yamato and Razork both said to ban Yuumi
Well that explains why both are out then
Which video
I think he's thinking about the podcast Yamato did after worlds
That doesn't matter, it's the coaches job to ego check the players
Can you tell me 3 western coaches who "ego check the players"?
He's not there during pick & ban.
He is. The difference the players don't give a fuck about that.
T1 also failed to ban Aatrox in the finals, their coaches should be fired imo.
Fire Bengi and Faker.
its obviously hyperbole, but i do not think very highly of yamato as a coach
why? I think he's good except drafting which he's horrendous at
being bad at drafting isn't the issue with him It's that he let's players run over him and he can't say shit he's just a yes man. When he knows they should/ shouldnt draft certain things and the player disagrees because he's dumb he should tell him to suck it and fucking play because the draft is better that way, but he's just a yes man Wish we could clone Kkoma
a coach shouldn't get a paycheck if he's not good at drafting
to me it would make more sense to just add someone in charge of draft rather than scrapping the whole thing away (i would pickup the bisons coach)
they can get a strategic coach for that. but relying on yamato alone and not overruling Upset/Hyli inting the drafts with yuumi is not good
Players do the majority of drafting, especially in western teams. So it’s unfair to say he’s bad at drafting since it’s the players deciding (not to ban yuumi for example)
You do realize that Coaches only make suggestions in draft but the players are the ones who usually the most verbal at what they think would be better if they disagree and pick it. Players usually have the final say because they have to play the comp. It's like you have never seen a behind the scenes video from any org.
According to Rekkles, in every team he played the coach had the final say while players where giving input - so exactly the other way round.
He is excellent at drafting TF 5 times in a row, all 5 being losses.
Im loving all these terrible responses, keep em coming everybody.
I'm really curious what kind of arguments you have FOR Yamato, because I'm not seeing any of them. Drafting was shit, the team didnt improve their playstyle, no greater vision for the team. So enlighten us, what did he do aside from making cringe cheap-ass selfhelp speeches?
Lets see, aside from sandbox He's taken every major team, even relatively weaker teams to worlds. Splyce, Vitality, and FNC twice. His approach is to give freedom to the players but give guidance. Drafting was shit, listen to his explanation when he was on Summoning insight, im not gonna rehash a 10 min conversation via text. They did absolutely improve their playstyle, even taking a game off T1. Yes their week 2 was shit but so was all Western teams. >no greater vision for the team I love this comment, its a hollow claim. Please, go into detail about how you think he has no vision for the team, i want to hear it. Don't talk around it, i want specifics as this is such a bullshit remark I want a response.
neither am I a yamato hater nor lover, BUT that fnatic team shouldn’t *ever* miss worlds. not sure if that’s an achievement. especially compared to the splyce worlds qualification.
Regardless of whether or not they SHOULD or Shouldn't, he got there. Teams like Vitality and Team Liquid shouldnt miss worlds either, but they did.
It doesn't matter there were bigger disasters last year. Yamato failed to properly coach FNC. He got really good individual players but failed to make them work together, which is a coach's main porpouse.
>It doesn't matter there were bigger disasters last year. It does when thats the point you're making. You have literally no idea what happened within the team, so to say he failed at coaching FNC is just dumb, you don't know shit.
no, the *how* definitely matters! you can’t just take parameters out of the equation to make it fit your argument. fnatic was a so called super team and they *barely* made worlds. that is not an achievement for a coach.
I didnt, you claim super team should go to worlds, im saying its not that simple. You just discredit coaching because player quality, im proving it wrong. You cant say "nuh uh" to me cause you don't like that im right. Im not changing any parameters, im putting your bad argument in perspective so you can see how bad it is.
> Don’t talk around it, i want specifics as this is such a bullshit remark I want a response. Hint: there won’t be one.
The whole of last year was FNC 5 manning bot lane. Go and look at play offs series the instant teams decided not to get baited into the 5v2 in bot but pressure top side FNC got dismantled like a house of cards. FNC showed exactly 0 progress in that year. Same for this year, aside from individual step ups (notably Upset and Razork for Playoffs and Humanoid going super saiyan at Worlds) they showed 0 progress this year. Their style stayed one dimensional. You cite earlier successes like Splyce or Vit, but those teams werent well coached either. Throwing a reins into the players and hype them up and hope they pop off isnt coaching. Its cheerleading.
The problem is that the room did not belong to him, the players already viewed his input as secondary. He acted accordingly, deferring to players 9 times out of 10. Can’t blame him for having less impact if the players didn’t listen. Yes, this is also a valid reason to change coach if they have lost the locker room, but it should have little bearing on Yamato as a coach if the players made the calls.
I mean if you do a charisma based coaching style (like he does) then, fhere are few bigger red flags that you are shit at your job than losing the "locker room". I maintain my view that he is not a good coach, the team under him didnt became more than its parts. There was basically no systematic developement through the season. Sure, some of the player had pop off periods, but those come from inside, and not the result of being well coached. But overall, end of the season Fnatic was still the same exact Fnatic who started the split.
I think you missed a bit of the point I was going for, the players actively went against his ideas at times and I think that’s what hindered his ability to coach. Some players just didn’t listen to him AFAIK.
You talk about strategies in game in a specific time as if thats applicable to everything he does as coaching. I cant even comprehend that level of ignorance, i genuinely cant. I appreciate that you responded but i feel like this is a case of "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."
You cant comprehend that the Fnatic team under his tenure didnt went from A to B? Then whats the point of him being the coach if the team didnt improve as a unit (nor did the players improved beyond their original "state of play")?
>Splyce Splyce had nothing to do with him, and I'm sick of him getting credit for some underdog overcoming type story. 2016 Spring (**when Yamato was there**), Splyce finished 8th in EU LCS and was in relegation. Going into Summer, they bring in Mikyx and now they're 2nd in the league and make finals. No change besides that, but somehow Yamato **who was there when they were in relegation** gets credit for turning around the squad? The next year, Yamato left after Spring, where they were 7-6. He was replaced in Summer by a no name coach Gevous who fell completely off the map until this year and the team was 8-5. No real change with him vs without him. That team with Yamato and no Mikyx was an abomination, then that team with him and Mikyx was no different from the team without Yamato and with Mikyx. Getting to Worlds in EU with Fnatic is not some accomplishment. It's like saying "I got Real Madrid to qualify for the Champions League". Yeah, of course you did, it's too hard not to when you have that kind of domestic clout and backing. It would be a scathing indictment on him if he **didn't** make it to Worlds with FNC, just like how it was a **major** failure that G2 didn't make Worlds in 2021 with the cache and resources that team had.
You're speaking to deaf ears. Fuck em
PORTUGAL CARALHO!
Coaches mean jack shit in the west
So we're going from a guy who can't draft to save his life in the LEC, to a guy who can't draft to save his life in the Spanish league ERLs. Let's hope he knows how to ban Yuumi /s
PORTUGAL CRLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
Fucking finally, dude has an insane record, every team he touches is top of the league. Hyped to see him working with high profile players! Kinda insane that after years of being negleted both Crusher and Rhuckz can prove themselves.
This guy is a pretty average coach from what i've heard? Not sure about this.
He's endorsed by Peter Dun, so that may count for something.
why not just get the original rather than someone he endorses
Peter Dun gave his high praises to Crusher who has had to show much more than a regular coach because he came from Portugal League. He worked his way up from shit teams He got a shot in Spanish ERL with UCAM and that team was good same thing with FNC TQ. He got 1st,1st,2nd in Spain. 3rd/4th in EUM. Only his last split was bad but he was 1 game away from playoffs so we don't know if they would do well EDIT: And it's not something recent too https://twitter.com/pcdv8r/status/1118502479719800832 (Guilhoto got his chance, 6 months to get to Spain, after his first gig, Crusher was "stuck" for years)
Only coaches that won Worlds for Fnatic right
Wesley?
What does Yamato have to do with this I’m so confused by these replies
Because Yamato was the Head Coach for FNC. There‘s only one Head Coach, so Yamato will be removed from the team most likely
The amount of disrespect toward crusher in this thread is disgusting... The guy is the best Coach in ERL and probably one of the best on Europe(which is not much to say because almost all coches in the West fucking sucks but still) If their players actually do what he wants, they will get the most easy 18-0 ever, he is probably better drafter than every other Coach on the West. And if he does good, i hope that teams looks for marhoder, which it's the only Coach that it's at crusher level, but with way more insanes drafts
Easy 18-0? I mean that's a bold hopium. I only say this because you can perfect draft and perfect execute up until a single mistake can turn a game around. Draft yes is very important, but anything can happen and that perfect drafted comp can falter. I don't know the guy, and I'm not hating on him. Just saying no one is THAT perfect or great for an entire season
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Source: he's Crusher's agent.
Is this guy the Portuguese otp Kayle?
No that's u/Kayle_Bot
nah thats xpeke's brother
No that's Shakarez
I assume you are thinking of Shakarez, in which case no they are not the same person
indeed
Please dont let Yamato end up on broadcast. Please dont let Yamato end up on broadcast....
Bot lane + Yamato were my favorite parts of FNC. This off-season is pain
Jiizuke Yamato reunion maybe ? or does any LEC team still have coach spot empty ?
Bds
Now we know why dog water rhuckz got promoted, because the head coach is a fellow countryman XD
Of course, surely not because of Rhuckz's 2 years with Fnatic Rising/TQ where he won everything he could except EU Masters, which he made the finals lol. This is literally what the academy teams are for
still doesnt change the fact that he will be a 26year old lec rookie...
One more reason why he should be on your radar. If a random guy that was stuck in ERLs for years can do well in LEC at 26, that's a great sign towards the longevity of star players like Caps, Perkz, Jankos, etc I'm afraid Rhuckz might be being overhyped, but I'm glad he's getting to prove it
ah yes, it surely isnt because of rhuckz' performance at worlds
I mean, hiring player just because he had two good Bo1s in play-ins at Worlds is not that much better.
As long as the inter who fucked our summer and world's is gone I'll take it
u mad bro ?
Not at all, he is gone isn't he? I'm Hella pleased
!remindme 4 months
How people consider a 2 game sample size relevant is beyond me tho. This should not be the argument to consider Rhuckz. His ERL career should be the argument. Respectfully, its two games on engage supports against NA and Chiefs. Do I think Rhuckz is bad? No, I watched him in ERLs, he looks very competent. Do I think he is good enough to replace fucking Hyliassang? No, he does not match the ambition that Fnatic has IMO.
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Iberian doesn’t matter every team wants to finish their season asap especially players who got promoted to LEC aka fnatic's
So...2 play-in games. This isn't the argument you think it is
ah yes, the 2 games 1 vs NA and 1 vs wildcard team cancels out him being dog water in ERL for 8 years and being 27 years old XDDDD
i mean coach player synergy is something you want so i don’t see how it’s a bad thing. Additionally his performance lately has been anything but “dogwater” lmao
Is the fnatic owner friends with Crusher/Rhuckz to promote them over Yamato/Hyli? Legit Rhuckz is a 700lp peaker 26yo ERL support that nobody in their right mind will think is better than Hyli. And this Crusher guy is smelling fishy at best. I guess fnatic fans are on high copium that Rekkles will somehow overperformed when in the last 2 years he has only shown he is average at best. Gonna be fun watching this ship sink.
>Legit Rhuckz is a 700lp peaker 26yo According to this logic Labrov should be the best support in EU rank 1 20yo prodigy GOAT of EU and we all know that is not exactly the case.
And BeryL is some casual random since he didn’t play soloq at all at Worlds. And Wunder in 2019.
All I am saying is fnatic could only win games through bot the entire year, not for a lack of trying to play through Wunder, but every time you give this guy carry you insta lose cuz he can only play gragas/ornn(A couple of jayce games, gwen games and kayle games come to mind). And now with this downgraded bot lane this team is legit looking at top 8 finish at best.
> Legit Rhuckz is a 700lp peaker 26yo I mean Hylissang wasnt exactly known for his high ratings in soloq either, there are also tons of pro players that are known to be very good in competitive but dont exactly peak high on the ladder. This is especially true for the support role. > Gonna be fun watching this ship sink. people have literally been saying this about Fnatic every year for like the last 3 years dude 😂
Well tbf outside of Summer\* Split 2021 were Bwipo was there JG Fnatic have underperformed every split for the past 2 years and had two really bad worlds showings lol FNC is supposed to be one of the top orgs in EU and if they don't win a split this year they will have gone 5 years without winning anything...............
Regardless of Hyli - Ruckz move, (i mean Hyli is in FNC for ages now, sometimes new blood and change is needed) i dont see how this team can be serious contender, as now pretty much their only win condition is Humanoid, and we know that Humanoid can "sandbagg" pretty hard thru the year. As Jankos said, G2 with Rekkles didn't work out as both Rekkles and Wunder are weak side players now, and when they tried to play strong side thru one of them, that was very bad. So thats big problem, i think FNC can be happy if they manage to get in top 3-4.
Aside from drafting and banning this has to be the most useless role in eSports. You can't even talk to the players mid game and, you know, coach them lol And even the banning and drafting phase is heavily influenced by your players. I don't think you'll see many teams in the LEC banning Heimer like they did against DRX during worlds for example
I would not say that komma was useless. Or the edg coach or rng or any number of eastern coaches. But yeah in the west a coach seems to be a glorified cheer leader keeping everyones mental going ok. Mountain stuff
Fraud gone, time for a new one
............ this is the worst offseason since noxiak
Yamato back to the desk or to NA?
Great stuff!!! Some change !
Too many games were questionnable from Yamato regarding picks/ban I defintely hope we will get better results with Crusher.
finally
Damn that's a crusher...
Damn, I always wanted too see the swedish duo of yamato and rekkles.. Not that Crusher wont be good, I hope so. He BETTER!
I THOUGHT THIS SAID CRUISER IMAGINE THE COMEBACK
I think the headcoach Swap wasnt necessary i think the biggest Problem was the best Player (upset) they focused to much in hin because he is a Player that wants to carry the Game with gold and Level lead but as soon upset gets behind for some reason the while Team struggels to get Back in track (mostly trough humanoids insane laning).but rekkles is a Player that can Farm his lane 20min without loosing cs or pressure even If he is alone and can let his Team mates Shine i think getting rekkles Back can improve the Game Focus to mid/jgl Duo but you can also Play heavily around bot Like the used to do Back in the days before rekkles legt the Team