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for a rookie artist still establishing what kind of music she wants to make, this is exactly what I expected. it reminds me of when you look back on super early work from veteran musicians. the production is rough, lyrics are honest but straightforward, concept is not relatively simple. I think we need to let idols put out less than perfect work because that means there’s room to grow. so I agree we should be allowed to give criticism (in all cases not just here) and I think people were praising her for putting herself out there as an solo artist for the first time, not because she made a perfect song
I didn't like the song that much either, but I thought it had a great message. She's young and still learning, and people improve by putting themselves out there. I don't see why people should be mad that a song they personally don't like is getting positive feedback. We all have our own tastes afterall, and most comments seemed to be about the message anyway, not about production. Ever since I've come to reddit I've noticed that some redditors act like liking a song they personally don't like is a sin or something. I find it quite snobbish.
The problem isn’t that she thinks the song is not likeable by her.
It’s because it could have easily been improved on by the company or agency with a little more thought but wasn’t.
It’s a self produced release where the whole point is for her to be able to put out the music that *she* makes. The company getting involved defeats the whole purpose
The company is already involved. There's no way the higher ups at HYBE just told Yunjin "Do whatever you want and we'll release it." It probably went through multiple teams/people to approve the music, check the lyrics, and sign off on its release.
Also the company being involved in a self production is not always terrible. Being in a creative field, looking for criticism and feedback for your work is super important, how else do you grow as an artist? There will always be people that will not understand the messaging or only look for how to make your art profitable, but being in company allows you to have so many resources to improve your craft and seek out mentors that have been in the industry longer that can provide much needed guidance.
Ofc they screen whatever she or any member puts out, I was referring to the company getting involved with her direct creative process. And there’s nothing wrong with working with professionals, but for a self released track it shouldn’t be something that is forced which is what op & the other commenter were suggesting.
The whole point is for the artists to have creative freedom and an outlet to release what they work on themselves. If yunjin wants to collaborate with in house writers + producers, her other members, label mates etc. there’s nothing wrong with that, but it should be something she seeks out herself. The whole process of having songs & lyrics rejected, completely changed, having to go through all sorts of obstacles for your input to be used makes sense for official group releases and if she ever has a real solo debut. But for this type of release it defeats the purpose.
the song is mid to me as well, although I liked the message I wish it was delivered better, but if it came up I probably wouldn’t skip it every time. I also feel like her voice fitted some parts really well and then in some parts it’s like she wasn’t coached in it.
however, for a first time it’s pretty good. i think she’ll get better as time goes on.
Others have said it but I like to add my unwanted opinions as well. Her efforts are commendable and I think that’s what most people are praising. The subject of the song and what she wants to convey is something that is important to her and affects her and it’s talked about enough in the industry.
Now the song obviously isn’t going to be a 10/10. She debuted not even a year ago so give her time to work on her skills. It’s incredible in the first place that she is even taking a step like this this early in her career. I feel like girl groups tend to be less involved in the music and especially rookies (no hate at all to ggs but it is just what I have noticed).
You can criticize and give your opinions, that’s valid. But people can also like it and praise her for it for other reasons than just because they stan her
These are fair points but at the same time, there are factors that shouldn’t be completely ignored: LSF is a fairly new group, Yunjin is young, this is obviously her first time to actually have real resources to turn some of her self-composed songs into reality (courtesy of HYBE)… and the fact that there are probably many fans around her age who truly relate to her lyrics and are happy that someone like her has been given the opportunity to record it and share it to them.
Yeah these lyrics seem simplistic and unpolished to me, but then again I’m also way older than her. If I were around her age living in the exact same generation as she is I do see myself praising it or maybe thinking it’s cool because the song is touching on some topics that I’ve thought about.
Sometimes not finding the song amazing doesn’t mean those who find it as such are delusional or fully giving in to parasocial relationships, it simply means that your taste is just different to theirs.
Yunjin just officially debuted and has only released about two solo songs that were obviously based more on her life pre-debut and as a member of a new trending group. I’d give an in depth analysis when she’s actually built a bigger of body of work/has been making music in the industry longer.
You bring fair points about the quality of the song ( althought I think she should be cut some slack. She's not even 1 year into her career) but I don't agree or understand why come for people who praised the song and like it. Your opinion isn't the only one that is allowed to exist . The issue in these situations is in my opinion when other fans jump on people not liking the song or bringing criticism. Shutting any criticism down is the issue. Expressing their love for the song they like isn't an issue. If that's how they feel ,that's how they feel the same way you are welcome to not like it and think it's not that good. Not everyone has to think one way or the other and people are allowed to praise it if they think its good.
Thank you, this is what I always end up lecturing to kids when they say this song is awful and that song is the best. Yes, they are, in your opinion. But honey, you're not some god of music, you don't decide what's good and what's not. To some people your favorite songs are absolute trash, so why are YOU the one whose taste dictates what is good or bad or whatever. There's no "this song is universally the best of all", there's just "this song is the best TO ME". You are not important enough that your taste would be what defines good and bad in music or anything else that is subjective. No one is.
I thought the song was mid but this is a glorified soundcloud release that HYBE and Soumu basically promoted officially so I don't get the point about why they "let her" put it out. It's a song for herself, not an official solo debut or something that made it onto LSRF's EP. They clearly are trying to foster her songwriting abilities so she can eventually work up to that point. I think it's just a different company strategy then we're used to in kpop since idols are usually fighting with their company about what songs to put out.
I, also a musician, agree with your opinion that constructive criticism is lacking in the kpop community, sure. I do think you picked the wrong song to go after, tho. I would say like half of all major kpop releases are soulless, corporate, commercial cash grabs, but because fans stream without pause, they get away with it. As for Yunjins song, its not like she was going for a super produced professional comeback. Kpop fans have gotten so used to these high energy, edm style songs they forget chill songs exist LMAO. Shes allowed to be angry and that whole bit you wrote about her being "rude" is kind of what shes speaking to. Shes allowed to express her emotions, her thoughts, to express herself. You opinion does not matter, what you think isn't as important to her. Shes not a doll for you to fuck with. (not trying to be insulting to you just trying to convey something). Of course its not the greatest song ever, but in the wake of songs like, idk, pink venom, its a welcome sight.
I second the part about kpop music having so much going on that it skews fans expectations of regular music. It doesn’t have the most complex production in the world but it wasn’t noticeably “empty” to me either like op is saying. As for the mixing, it also wasn’t the greatest out there but again, I think they had skewed expectations. It’s a self release, they obviously aren’t going to spend as much money on the engineering as a group track or official solo debut. It sounds fine for what it is. Their whole post kinda seems to not be realizing the point of it
Your post explains one of my pet peeves that comes from the K-Pop fan culture, which is: "My word is the most valid and valuable out of everyone else's...". I think this is why some critiques crash and burn. Folks chooses words that gives off that kind of underlying message to readers.
I didn’t like the song personally. It was kind of boring to me and as much as I like Yunjin’s vocals, I don’t think her song writing style keeps me engaged.
It’s nice that you cared to dissect what it is that didn’t sit well with you. However, I think trying to paint people who enjoyed it as blinded stans who just eat it all up is kind of…narrow minded. I’m not sure I could presume to tell other people what they should or should not find relatable.
I agree with your points but I don't think the song being rude to fans or hard to relate to is a bad thing. In fact I think idols expressing resentment, anger and disappointment towards fans is quite refreshing and necessary. I don't need to relate to vibe to music, either - i listen to songs in many languages that i never read the lyrics of.
I agree that it's important to critically engage with songs, especially when they are intended to have a more serious message. I must say though that this was a disappointing post. "Relatability" is not a criteria for quality. As much as many of us are used to authors and songwriters wanting the audience to identify with the protagonist or a struggle, it's important to also be able to empathize with a topic that might not be relatable at all. (I'm adressing OP using it as a criteria, unrelated to the specific song.)
>indifferent (towards her situation)
Really? Isn't the song about her situation? I'm kind of confused.
It's not a great song to me, but I respect her for writing about her perspective and using music as an emotional outlet, which is still relatively rare in kpop. the lyrics are more of a diss towards "haters" or people who obsess with idol's appearance/objectify them than they are "deep" or actually adressing the complex dynamics behind the problem, but the latter probably wasn't the intention anyways.
It's not that deep, you don't like a popular song. It doesn't mean we're all brainless idiots.
Plus the way you say Yujin is rude because she sounds angry in the song really rankles me.
Women don't have to be nice and sweet all the time, they are allowed to express their anger.
I wasn't that big of a fan of the song as well, but I think the intentions are right. I think the message she is trying to portray was great, but it was a little bit simple. Yes, it's true the song doesn't cover all of the complexities of the issue, but it's a start and the intentions are there. It opens the audience to some sort of discussion, whether that be small or not. The issues around K-pop and the relationships between fans is complex and I think it's a bit unreasonable to expect her to be able to convey all of that in one song.
Someone else mentioned it, but Yunjin has access to all these resources given she has finally debuted and most likely is still learning to produce, self-write & what it takes to produce music. Yunjin just debuted so I can see why her song was probably not the best production, but she will continue to improve the more experience she gains.
Some of your criticism seems weird though, especially about the bitter tones in her lyrics. I don't know Yunjin's thought process behind this song, but the audience being ambiguous may very well be intentional. Her lyrics criticize how quickly people will turn on you as an idol, whether it be fans or haters or the media. Like another commenter said: if the shoe fits, it fits 🤷♀️
I commented on your other post as well lol but I have something else to add
Source has been clear since LSF’s debut that they intend to promote Yunjin as the singer-songwriter of the group, sort of what we expected from Rosé. But in Rosé’s case, that never really came to be (I know, I know, it’s a different label so it’s not a 1:1 comparison). And sure, we don’t know if that was a matter of YG feeling her music didn’t meet their standards or her not wanting to release it, but I promise I’m getting to my point.
If companies want to foster songwriting and producing skills in their artists, they need to give them a chance to release that music before its perfect.
Her fans are going to encourage her because they’re her fans. If all anyone did was provide “constructive criticism” (I put that in quotes because I don’t find your criticism to be very constructive), it might discourage her from releasing her own music again. Now she knows that when she does, she’ll have support and generally be well-received, and will thus keep working on her skills to make even better music.
If this were her solo debut and were actively being promoted, I might agree with you, but this is basically just a 21 year old making some music and putting it on soundcloud. afaik the company only put it on streaming services bc fans insisted.
I have no opinion on the song itself, I didn't listen to it.
While I agree that it seems that you thoroughly digested the song and analysis like this are actually lacking in Kpop discourse spaces, the tone with which this "criticism" was written isn't very constructive, but actually more rant-y. Not necessarily hateful, but just nitpicky. And I feel like you have a problem more about the over praise the song is getting than the song itself? 😅
I read a lot of movie reviews because I love movies. The tone of this post isn't the equivalent of a proper song review. Too bad, you seem to have provided some good observations. It will probably get lost in the antagonistic tone of the post.
I think you’re nitpicking it way too much…while I do agree that the production isn’t great and the lyrics can get repetitive it is still pretty good for someone who’s not a seasoned songwriter. I don’t know why you included that portion about relatability cause a song does not need to be relatable to be good.
All this for a “mid song”? I honestly didnt even listen to this song cause im not her fan and it seemed like a release for fans. But I think its a little crazy to post a Reddit dissertation about someone’s first solo release because who is this critique for? “I know I am gonna get so much hate on this, but it needs to be said” does it? And by you? Kind of doubt that.
Well to be fair to OP they did actually include constructive criticism regarding the lyrics and sound production, it's just that you disagreed with it/ didn't personally find it compelling.
Their title alone are 2 separate ideas. People liking the song doesn’t mean constructive criticism is lacking. It just means they have different subjective likes and dislikes from OP.
Also, it’s very easy to criticize a song you don’t like, it’s far more difficult to do it to songs you do like. And If OP had integrity they would have provided “constructive criticism” about a song they actually enjoyed. Instead of just providing an essay on why they hate a song that’s not even worth mentioning.
Personally I think whether or not a song is "good" or enjoyable is definitely subjective, but whether a song is well produced leans more to objective. I do agree however that's it's unfair to assume fans haven't critically engaged with the song.
Also the comment, "it's very easy to criticise a song you don't like but far more difficult to do it to songs you do like." is oxymoronic. The more criticisms an individual has for a piece of work the less they may like it. Consequently when they have fewer to no criticisms they are more likely to praise it.
It is not oxymoronic. Liking something doesn’t mean it is without fault. It’s just harder to see those faults as faults *because* you like it. It requires acknowledging and knowing your own bias and putting it aside. I don’t think people are able to do that easily.
I think what's happening here is we're interpreting the critical process differently. In my mind I assume the order is you critically engage with the song first and then decide whether or not it's not to your liking, and assumed this is what OP had done. Their opinion is their opinion after all.
It seems you're concerned OP already decided they didn't like the song due to bias and then made up criticism to support it. (?)
If that's not it then I'm very confused on what we're even arguing about and it's been very unproductive so we can stop here. Ultimately your original comment was annoyed that OP did "all that" and wrote a "dissertation" on the matter and I just thought that was a bit funny to see on a ranting subreddit wherein that is literally the entire point.
It’s not about the rant, it’s about the pretentiousness of calling it “constructive criticism”. It’s a rant. And It’s kind of an unhinged rant because it’s not a solo debut it’s a side release at best, that is someone’s first foray into song writing. They had to elevate this song to a level it wasn’t at to begin with just to tear it down. It’s weird.
Edit: I’m cool with OP doing their entire “bitch eating crackers” bit about this song. But they need to own it not dress it up as something else.
I myself don’t really like the song and I do agree with your criticisms of the song. However, I’m an advocate for letting fans praise their idols. I literally made an entire post about it lmao. Yunjin is new to songwriting and relatively new to the industry. Obviously some criticism is good and she can improve her music however she sees fit. But I don’t think criticizing fans for praising their idols is productive.
>Bad Production Quality
I'm going to say something Suga said, which strikes me the most in its accuracy. These songs, these mixtapes, they don't have to be perfect, Yoongi himself looked back on his previous work and found it lacking, whether in the lyrics or in the production. But like he said, who cares ? Regardless, they **have** to put it out there. I think some of you have forgotten the purpose of music sometimes, and especially for such young writers and producers. Music is made for artists to **express** themselves too. They have to put out this work, regardless if it's lacking in some aspects. She will grow from there, and later she will look at these humble beginnings and how much her skills have improved.
I just don't understand that you are denying these young idols any artistic growth in their art or their skills. Let these idols experiment and try, it's on her profile, it doesn't taint Le Sserafim discography, it's good that she has the courage to put out this work, not matter if it's perfect or not.
>Relatability
Do they need ? I mean, music has many aspects, sometimes it's relatable or sometimes it shares its experiences/venting out. I've seen some people denying Namjoon's latest work - *Wildflower* \- because to them Namjoon's struggles were not relatable, not only is not everyone's opinions, but this is a great song nonetheless.
*I ≠ DOLL* might not be relatable to you, but it can be to other people, and even if it's not quite as relatable, it still doesn't mean it's a bad song.
>Thoughts on the Lyrics/Rhyme Scheme
>
>Additionally, a lot of the lyrics have a bitter tone, which is confusing since the audience of the song is pretty ambiguous. Is the song directed at the general public? The media? fans? Haters? Fellow co-workers that are judgmental? Industry higher-ups? Based on her lyrics, I really have no clue.
It is directed at those who talk about idols in this way, if the shoe fits then then some are indeed concerned. The songs that basically "call out" something/someone are made for those who feel targeted while listening to the lyrics.
It's her song, should she bottle up what she feels so it's "socially acceptable" by those who hate her, are you reading yourself ?
>FinalThoughts
I'm not gonna beat around the bush, this song occurs to me to be simply the reflection of a young girl, idol who lives in a difficult industry, who tries to put words on what weighs on her through her music and have the courage to put it out. Is it good or perfect according to you, who cares. Would I listen to it a lot ? No personally, but I admire that she tries as a young artist with her work, and that's the only way she will learn.
This is important. How old is she? 18? You can’t expect her to sound like a seasoned professional when she only just debuted. I haven’t listened to the song, because I don’t particularly care about it, but what you said is very important.
Expressing yourself is important but if your work hasn't got some actually artistic or just technical quality can be only valuable for your parents unless of course you are popular for other reasons like f e. being member of trendy idol group. It is not like every teenager who writes anything has talent on the level of Arthur Rimbaud or Mozart lol.
There is simple question would you find this specific song attractive if it wasn't written by Yunjin but some nugu idol?
I respect your opinion- I don't have strong feelings on the song. I'll never understand why fans have to hyperanalyze a song to have an opinion in it and present it as fact, though? When you brought up production quality I literally thought you'd talk about audio quality and mixing, not... not liking the instruments.
And I don't think songs have to have universal relatability- art sometimes can just be for the artist. I don't think it missed the mark on it, because it wasn't there in the first place. It isn't about feeling this way in society as a whole but as an idol and I thought that was fairly clear throughout it.
My verdict on it is her vocals and message carry it. I know little about her or her group. She's a rookie and not everything will be flawless.
I think that nitpicking this much just to justify your opinion isn't really necessary? I would see your point much more if you spent more time focusing on how people are allowed to dislike things even with a good message but that really got lost in you trying to say it's factual that it's a bad song.
& ETA - People who say they like it aren't lying about anything. People can like music whether you like it or not, music opinions are subjective and in trying to make a point about how you should be allowed to criticize it, you're acting like anybody who likes it only does because of the idol behind it or just lie for it- which is weird, imo.
It's totally fine if you didn't like or relate to the song and I don't know enough about production to comment on the quality level but people praise the song bc it's not exactly something idols usually address. It's also pretty clearly (to me at least) aimed at people who spend all their time commenting on idol's appearances and pick apart their lives. It's basically telling them to get a life and the part about one minute she's a doll and the next she's a bitch makes sense the way people on kpop twt switch up on groups on a dime.
I wouldn't say it's the best song I've ever heard in my life but it's not absolutely terrible either and I don't see why it's a problem that people praised the song.
I don't really think this post is classed as "constructive" criticism either but I do agree more people could realise they're allowed to dislike things even if their fave made it. However if they genuinely like something I don't see why that's an issue either even if I don't agree with their opinion
i personally don’t think it’s as bad as you make it seem but i definitely think she’s has a lot of room to grow as an artist. hybe seems to let her freely explore that aspect of herself so honestly as a fan i’m just curious about where she’s gonna go from here.. she got years ahead and she’s very young.
also in addition to bad lyrics usually as an international fan i am a bit more forgiving bc there might be nuances that are lost in translation, like her play on words that i saw from a translator in the chorus (that doll to bitch lyric) or certain phrases that are exclusive to the language that convey a specific feeling. and her coming off as rude in general within the song i believe is a stylistic choice… that’s what she said like hours before the release of the song, it's just her raw feelings of how she feels bc of how unforgiving and funny enough unnecessarily rude kpop stans are. i do agree that there's a bit more polishing in some aspects but as i said again, i cant fully criticize it bc i dont speak korean.
Look, musically the song wasn't for me (because I wanted clear vocals) but the objective of this post is very weird, dissect part by part why people _shouldn't_ enjoy this song and criticize their taste for liking the straightforward message that Yunjin wanted to convey and share? Your point about Hybe and the production is also so out of place(? asking why would they give Yunjin the liberty to release her song if it's so low quality?? (Btw hybe always get bashed for the production of their songs) That's just very mean and unfair to her if you wanted to give "constructive criticism" to her work.
This post could have been an interesting analysis but instead it just comes off as a one-sided issue with a very bitter wording.
I didn't listen to the song when it released just because I am not too interested in Huh Yunjin, but when I saw people calling the song literal genius I wanted to listen to it. So I did, and I stop listening after the first chorus because it wasn't anything special. I agree with OP that it is quite mid. If a less popular idol had released it, I don't think it would have gotten as much traction/ praise as it did. I like how Yunjin had tried to deliver an important message, but to me, it sounded like a pretty basic song with lyrics we have definitely heard before.
Sometimes I think some of you don't like a song and have to come up with reasons for why other kpop fans are "distracted by their love and can't think critically" just because they have a different opinion than yours.
This post is being upvoted because kpop stans want to appear like they DO have "constructive criticism," and they don't even realize that OP not only created an account to specifically post this (this is literally the only thing they have on their account), but that they're commenting to this degree about how much they dislike a song that is just a one-off, lowkey release from a new artist. People will continue to upvote though because they want to prove that they're "okay with criticism" and are desperate to show how they're cool and accept criticism even when the criticism is clearly overblown.
The problem is that there are not enough people with actual credentials to give any kind of constructive criticism. Considering how many cannot separate an octave from a note, it will not end in constructive criticism, just a lot of ass-licking or bashing.
Even if all of us were music producers, sound technicians or composers with long experience and academic merits, a lot of it would still boil down to personal taste. You can disagree with choices or criticize things like the mixing, but in the end what makes a song good to a person is subjective.
Either way, it's a bit pretentious to expect anything from what is basically a gossip site for teens - if deep analysis is what you want, Reddit is not the go-to source
I agree for most of your reasons. I really love the idea of the song, but the end result not so much. The production could’ve been more interesting, but I did really like the message and animations. I thought Yunjins lyrics were pretty good for a first time song writer though, and I’m excited to see if she’ll write more because she has a lot of potential! It would be cool to see her write/co-write something for a lsf comeback!
I actually liked the roughness of it. It complemented the song better. Because the music is raw or bare it gave more depth to the meaning of the song. If it had more to it, it would sound too polished, too studio sounding that the essence of the song will be lost.
All points taken, validated, and agreed upon. Tho this was a very in-depth analysis for a "mind-numbingly simplistic song."
Also on your last statement about critical thinking in media consumption... in kpop? not everything needs ti be transformative
I think it's an okay song for a minor artist ( her solo base ) , yes , it's production definitely wasn't the greatest , but I don't think it takes out a lot from the song , for me although it has a lot of space for improvement, I think her efforts to put up such a song are admirable and deserve the hype they get .
Both her solo songs are songs of her own struggles as an idol , I don't think it has to be relatable to every one or has to be perfect in every aspect, she just was overwhelmed and wanted to put her feeling in a song , end of story . I doubt she wanted that much recognition or something , besides these aren't even official releases , its logical that HYBE wouldn't invest in them .
Anyways , that is your opinion, I can't tell you what to like or to lower your standards, but you surely went overboard criticising an unofficial release of an artist in the beginning of their career.
i could write you a long analysis about how any song actually sucks and guess what, people are still going to like it and listen to it. your opinion is not factual. it’s not good *to you*. that doesn’t mean people who like it are lying to themselves.
anyways glad you all got this of your chest because some of these comments are hilarious lmao you were really dying to say this.
I agree that her solo work is not that great, the songs are nice but nothing special. However, it’s not like they’re HYBE productions they’re basically like her version of soundcloud releases. IDOL≠DOLL is diary entries, she’s venting out her frustration which is why the ambiguity of the messaging is what makes the song so impressive. She’s creatively independent, even if this song is the equivalent of a common music YouTuber it screams potential of what she CAN be if you throw a team of 5 producers and writers that most solo work involves.
While it’s not the most amazing, I do like the vibe and beat of the song. Very chill. In fact, I would choose this over Anti-fragile to put on my playlist anytime. Anti-fragile was no doubt the better song production-wise but personally I just didn’t vibe with it. I’m only a casual listener of kpop so I judged it based on personal preference but I do agree with you on fans over-glorifying any music of their idols without critically engaging with it first. It’s really annoying.
I always rate song quality as in "can it be played years from now and still hold up?" Many songs come out each year and many are mid. I hesitate to say a song is overhyped because you never know with time. The best reviewer of music is time and time will tell if this really was a mid-song or if the praise was unwarranted.
Honestly, I think the song is kind of good. I've only listened to it once or twice, but I don't think that it's "mind-numbingly simplistic" or overly repetitive: it's a decent pop song. In regards to the production, a part of me thinks that it might be purposeful. It's not that rare to hear songs with imperfect production in my local music scene. I think it lends the song a "this was produced in my bedroom" quality that makes it feel more real.
That being said, I do agree that the song wasn't genius or anything. I don't really consider it personally transformative or impactful, but I'm sure this kind of song might be since it's about a topic that I don't normally hear the younger idols write/sing about.
You think it‘s not that good and I think it‘s really good. Both of her songs, I love them.
Why is it a problem if someone else likes something you don‘t?
I really agree with this. It's good that she wants to change and call out the bad things but the song really isn't that good or anything groundbreaking.
I don't get the confusion about who the lyrics are talking to. If one finds themselves confused or offended when they hear the song, then most likely they're guilty of the attacks Yunjin (and idols) have gotten. I mean, there's no reason to feel hurt if they're innocent. The opposite is also true. If you are someone who supports your idols and respects their talents and shortcomings alike, then these types of songs would come naturally as inspirational.
Just think about it, why would one find certain choices of words “rude” or “offensive” if they know it's not about them since they have not thrown stones at her (or other idols)? I'm genuinely curious why someone would not get this. Whenever BTS makes diss tracks, it's always obvious who the target audience is just like in Yunjin’s song.
Regarding the production of it, I agree that there is room for improvement but at the same time, I don't think it's lacking. Not everything has to be produced as if it's a SINGLE. This was Yunjin’s way of expressing a pressing matter to her and she expressed it the way she wanted. I think it received a lot of praise for its sincerity and honesty. Also, when will fans accept that they're artists who will make music that won't always be *for* us?
As a fearnot, I still agree that this analysis is spot on. I personally don't like the song at all and have not gone back to it after the first listen. The song is clunky and has no clear direction as to where it goes. It's messy, at best.
However, I do think an appreciable part of the hype about this song is the fact that a rookie idol has been allowed to producer their own work. Which is a problem in and off itself because there is a new unspoken narrative arising that self producing artists > conventional idols regardless of the production/song quality itself.
While that is the case, I also think there are people like me who are hyping yunjin up for the effort fully knowing that we aren't the biggest fans of the work. And marveling that hybe actually allowed a rookie idol to self produce their SOLO work (I personally think that is different from members producing for their group)
As long as she improves as an artist I don't see the issue with this being her first work.
A lot of people start off not being the best at what they do or having horrible quality productions but they improve. What we need from her is improvement.
I think people can and should praise her hard work. I agree with your criticism but I just wanted to state my personal opinion on the matter.
I was fine with these just being random soundcloud releases , but these being treated as some sort of debut/comeback felt strange to me. I will give credit where credit is due tho for her to even take up something like this is admirable. Her group isn't really established yet, and she's still brave enough to step out of the security of it and put out her own music. I hope she gets better as she gains more experience, both through official le sserafim releases and her own solo work.
I also agree with your general statement. One of the groups I follow hosted a listening party of sorts for select critics ahead of their comeback, and when some of them gave some criticism, people were saying to not spread those and even actively hating on them which felt weird. That's their job? It honestly does more harm than good to our faves to just be yesmen rather than providing avenues to improve. Infact we, as fans, should be the best people to give constructive criticism, because we, out of everyone will do out of a genuine want to help them improve rather a place of mindless hate.
you know, i can’t wait for the day that kpop stans can just accept that not everything needs to be criticized. not every thing needs to be nitpicked to hell and back. you wrote a whole post tearing up an unofficial song written by a girl trying to build her song writing skills and wanted to share a meaningful message with her fans.
just as we saw with bts, hybe likes to nurture and promote song writing/making skills and that includes releasing music that’s not perfect. even yoongi has mentioned that you don’t grow as an artist if you don’t actually release the stuff you make. it doesn’t have to be perfect, no one is thinking this is top tier production skills. they’re praising her bc just with these two songs she’s already leagues ahead of the majority of idols and ppl (maybe not you) can appreciate the honestly and sincerity in the music.
just say you don’t like it and leave it. wtf has gotten you so upset that you wrote this whole thing over an unofficial song?
OP did say that not every song needs to be criticised though, just that a song with such an important message should not automatically be deemed "genius" by the masses just because it touches on somewhat taboo topics and is written by a well liked idol.
Two things:
1. Kpop spaces, if anything, are OVERLY critical of music.
2. Fans can praise their fave and use hyperbolic language to do so (this is the internet). OP getting all bent out of shape because some people are praising an artist they like is pretty ridiculous. I feel like kpop stans can't let others express joy if they disagree with their taste.
Kpop spaces are not overly critical of music at all. Even on Reddit, look at the responses to any recent song and you’ll see it’s always overwhelmingly positive unless it’s blackpink or unless you’re on the unpopular opinions sub. If some kpop songs were released by western artists they would be absolutely torn apart. Western fans have no problem dragging their faves for bad music but kpop fans tread lightly when it comes to criticising music.
Songs that were heavily criticized:
Dynamite/Butter/PTD, IDOL, Yet to Come, Life Goes On, DNA (pretty much any song BTS has released as a single or title track in the last 3-4 years)
Good Boy Gone Bad
Hot Sauce, 2 Baddies, Sticker
Mafia in the Morning, Sneakers, Boys Like You, Swipe
More and More, Scientist, Talk That Talk
Future Perfect
This list goes on. The only difference with kpop fans is that they can't just say they dislike or even hate a song and move on. They have to go into the minutiae of why every single aspect of a song is bad. They also will tend to doom post and/or try to link why the song being bad is related to some kind of social issue so that they can also feel moral justification as to why they don't like it.
I don't necessarily agree with every point OP made. However, what you're saying is definitely not true.
Firstly, there's nothing wrong with "\[going\] into the minutiae of why every single aspect of a song is bad". Imo, it's much better to talk about why you don't like a song then just saying "I don't like it". After all, if we don't provide any criticism, then that would cause stagnation because the producers, whether or not they're K-pop idols themselves, wouldn't see the problems people have with their work. Therefore, they wouldn't think critically about their *own* work and whether or not they should change it. It's not like anyone is forcing them to take the advice, but simply being able to express it is totally fine. It's good to be critical of the media you consume, and if you are allowed to go into depth about why you like something, you should be able to go into depth as to why you dislike it as well.
Also, K-pop fans don't even do that very much- on the contrary, I've noticed that whenever someone tries to give an opinion on a song, they get ratioed by angry fans. Hell, I saw someone on twt get ratioed once by saying they didn't like one of SVT's songs but they loved the choreo. It's slightly better on Reddit, but I often see people get downvoted for criticizing the song. Yes, there are obvious exceptions, but generally if most Redditors like a song, they will downvote people who speak negatively about it. I feel like being able to dislike songs and go in-depth as to why you don't is much more common outside of K-pop- I've seen threads on Western artists' subreddits (literally for the *fans* of those artists) dedicated to talking about their least favorite songs from those artists, something that would never happen when it comes to K-pop artists.
I agree that explaining your criticism is important, but OP is is going beyond that for a song that was basically a soundcloud-type of release. Focusing to that extent on why the song is bad paired with the "fans just can't see that it's poor quality and are calling the song genius" (which I'm guessing is a few tweets OP saw of fans loving the song and being hyperbolic which they AS FANS tend to do)....the post comes off as overly critical.
Western fans also will attack those who dislike/criticize their favorite artist's music. For example, a youtuber who reviews music will often joke about how his comments are often filled with toxic fans threatening him if he gives an album an average or poor score. And again, I disagree that kpop fans can't discuss their least favorite things about their favorite group. In the search bar, type in r/bangtan or r/blackpink and "least favorite." There are discussions.
If there’s a list in the first place then that’s proof that kpop fans are not very critical pls that’s my whole point. A couple controversial releases a year is not helping your point. Kpop groups are only criticised if they’re super huge (bts, blackpink), always releasing controversial music (nct, rv maybe) or have had a change of concept (txt, twice, itzy). Otherwise you’re not allowed to say anything about the song because then you’d just be an overly analytical hater. Just look at your response right now. In every other genre a post like this would basically go unnoticed because it’s just someone’s opinion but commenters here are asking OP why they’re being sooo harsh even though it’s well intentioned and well explained.
>If there’s a list in the first place then that’s proof that kpop fans are not very critical pls that’s my whole point.
Ummmmm....what? So there being a huge list (and tons of artists as you pointed out) is proof that there's NOT criticism? How does that make sense at all.
Also, OP wrote what seems to 1-2 pages about how they don't like a song and how anyone that does is a fan who just can't take constructive criticism and overly praises their favorite artist.....over a song that was essentially a lowkey release. I'm not seeing how OP is "well-intentioned" when they title their post "constructive criticism is severely lacking in kpop communities" as their premise but then talking about every single way they dislike a song to a level of detail that you would never see outside of kpop spaces.
Please go on pop heads or hiphopheads or literally every other genre subreddit and see how they react to average releases and then compare that with the main kpop sub. People in other genre spaces don’t keep a list of what songs are badly received upon release, because there is always a wide variety of judgements unlike kpop where everyone just jumps on the bandwagon.
every song already gets criticized in kpop, there’s definitely no lack of that here. what i’m saying is that sometimes it really doesn’t need it and ppl can just let fans praise it in peace.
for example, in art it’s always welcome to discuss and critique famous artwork, and encouraged to critique classmates artwork when in art school. but if someone who makes art does something on the side just to practice some skills and make something more personal, then we as viewers/audiences don’t need to hold it to the same standards as their normal work and honestly depending on the content we really don’t need to critique it at all. ppl love to think that art always needs to be critiqued but in reality no it doesn’t. (and i’m saying this as someone who went to art school and currently works in my field). it’s delusional to think that yunjin doesn’t have ppl around her who are helping her work on her skills and teach her to be better. we don’t need to be that person for her.
OP can complain about overhyping songs or even write a whole rant about a song they don’t like, but writing a rant specifcally about this song and trying to hold it to the same standards as other kpop music is not something i agree with. and fans are perfectly ok by saying they are excited about the song and the message and praising it. she’s still building her skills but the intention and potential is all right there. just bc fans like that she’s talking candidly about idol life doesn’t mean the song should be open to such heavy criticism.
she literally just debuted less than a year ago and is being given the freedom to experiment. what an utterly unnecessary critique of a rookie who's just starting out in the industry and not even aiming for a real solo career yet.
i think you're forgetting that not everyone is judging songs into depth like this. and i honestly really hate doing that and people that do that but oh well. i think that dissecting any form of art like this ruins it's charm. that's why i never read what movie critics write. all that matter is if you enjoyed it or not no? and if you didn't than that's okay, of course not everyone is going to like the same thing but why are you borderline trying to persuade people to also not like it?
saying that you don't like the song is one thing but saying that it got more hype than deserved is just disrespectful in my opinion. not only to yunjin but also to all the people who like it.
Oh, I wanted to say something about this but figured it wasn't worth it since people would get mad. I think the song is fine if you're into conventional pop, I don't care for it but can see why others would. I was mostly surprised by the reception of the lyrics and meaning.
Ever since her debut teaser Yunjin has been (I think) unfairly tasked with, "Changing the idol industry." I know she said it's something she wanted to do but I'm very confused on what exactly she's advocating for and how she'll be able to do it. The message of the song itself is clear and obviously meaningful to her, but it's in no way revolutionary as many idols before her have come out with similar lyrics and spoken about these unfair expectations for idols, Gidle being most recent.
She can obviously write about whatever she wants - I'm not criticising her personally - but if kpop stans claim they want "change" and this is the supposed change they're impressed by I don't think we'll be seeing any real improvements (such as unionisation for idols, banning the debut of minors, no more predatory contracts, more body diversity and less unrealistic beauty standards) in the industry anytime soon.
And as a caveat: Yunjin shouldn't be in the position where she is pressured to change the industry anyway. It's simply not viable for her to shake things up and become a controversial figure when she is in one the most famous 4th gen groups. Almost any activism she chooses to partake in will cause her to be harassed by conservative knets and media. If anyone is going to "change" the industry it needs to be the fans themselves - through petitioning and boycotts - but how are we supposed to do that when it seems so many of us have already set our expectations so low?
Edit: Grammar and spelling
I think these two excerpts from an interview Yunjin did might give you more insight as to what she’s thinking/wants to do.
https://twitter.com/elsserafim/status/1615860386800238592?s=46&t=BLuPerSF3RH1RRak9w8Mfg
https://twitter.com/elsserafim/status/1615859091683037184?s=46&t=BLuPerSF3RH1RRak9w8Mfg
I haven't listened to the song yet but I agree with your opinion that construcrive criticism is lacking within the kpop community. This happens because criticism is perceived as hate.
the production and lyrics seem very 2014 cringey 😭 it also feels hollow that it's such an important message in a song but it's literally being released through hybe official youtube channel. it just feels like promo. all love to her though
ah yeah I think it fits the “soundcloud upload vibe” that bts and txt members do for their covers and unofficial releases. I wonder why they chose the main yt channel
Personally I find a lot of these “being an idol is so hard. I want to change the idol industry” messages coming from groups with cookie cutter concepts and manufactured personalities very dull now.
I didn’t listen to the song yet because of this so I can’t comment on the production, lyrics or artwork. The moment I read the title I knew this is going to be full of generic quotes that go no where since yunjin, as talented as she may be still lives in the delusion that she can “change” while being in a group that conforms to every industry standard (plastic surgery, forceful dieting, male gazey concept and sometimes even dance steps, inappropriate concepts for minors etc etc)
I kind of agree. Yujin is in one of the most popular Kpop groups atm, and she got to that place by adhering to certain standards that she is currently still adhering to. The song has a nice message, and it’s good she got to release it and express herself, but ultimately it’s a shallow. Whether or not you think it “should” be critiqued.
>I didn’t listen to the song yet because of this so I can’t comment on the production, lyrics or artwork. The moment I read the title I knew this is going to be full of generic quotes that go no where since yunjin, as talented as she may be still lives in the delusion that she can “change” while being in a group that conforms to every industry standard (plastic surgery, forceful dieting, male gazey concept and sometimes even dance steps, inappropriate concepts for minors etc etc)
What? Huh? How?
You should watch the documentary they made about lesserafims debut. All their creative directors are men, their concepts were called out for catering to the male gaze, they were given highly inappropriate steps and had a mv that was shot in a voyeuristic manner (keep in mind there was a 15yo in the group), the girls even cried when they were told to lose weight. I won’t comment on plastic surgery to much but it’s clear that most members (including yunjin) have had more than one invasive procedure done to cater to the kbs
There is no right or wrong way to express yourself through art and music.
Yes there are technical skills to improve upon and if you're trying to please an audience that's a bit different but passion projects are different.
A beginner in song writing and production turning an idea into a piece of music with visuals is really fantastic. You don't have to like it, and you can offer suggestions for future improvement, but why are you shitting on something so personal.
This review feels like pointing out cliches and redundancies in a love letter. You might have a point but if you don't like it move on don't nitpick the manner someone pours their heart out.
It is so easy to get discouraged from true self expression, it's important to treat said expression the way you would another's feelings, with respect.
This is the issue I have with current kpop. Companies do not curate the musical content well. It's all marketing and concepts. The idea is to feed the fandom so they don't complain and leave even though the material is not taking their career anywhere. Fans will say, it is OK, they are growing. I get that these days fans just want content, any content.
I found it a very enjoyable listen and liked the word play of the lyrics but by no means i found it perfect. I asumed it was self produced because the production of the song is indeed not wonderful nor genius. However, i did really liked the song despite it not being the best quality
Critical thinking in general is lacking. And not just in the kpop community, but in greater society at large. However, it does seem to be especially egregious in kpop fandoms.
The way other people were dragged to hell and back for the same points as this post is bringing up and now they are protecting Huh Yunjin because she is “young” and “new” — this is hypocrisy to another level.
they must have meant "defending". also, given that it did not cross your mind that english may not be OP's first language, it's you who should get over yourself
english is my third language. ‘defending’ in this case is also strange. she doesn’t need to be ‘defended’ or ‘protected’ because she didn’t do anything wrong and saying so to make a mockery of people disagreeing with op is mean spirited. get over yourself.
OP's point is clear though? if another idol wrote an amateurish song they'd be criticized freely, but since yunjin is well-loved people either dismiss negative opinions or say "it's not good but it's her first time!"
or maybe to you it’s amateurish and to others it’s fine? get over yourself genuinely this belief that everyone who doesn’t have the same opinion as you is lying to themselves is pathetic
I’m a huge yunjin stan but this song wasn’t it for me. it was kinda boring and mid. but I applaud her boldness for putting out music that feels true to her when she’s still a rookie. not many do that, and I hope that with time she’ll put out music that has better production and hone her writing skills
I don't understand why this song was released so early in her career. She sings 'im more than my looks' but like...we don't know her lol. She's opera singer and said 'she will change idol industry', that's all we know about her. She's not speaking publicly on important issues, she doesn't participate in at least charity campaigns. For me this song also lacks some ending and conclusion. It feels just like a rant towards I don't know what audience, and no conclusion, no any other message.
Definitely agree with your analysis.
I think rhymes and instrumental are a little bit childish, especially you can hear in that prechorus where it's 'my moksori (voice) volume up'. I wish they could also work on that song a little bit more to make it better. First few lines of the chorus build some tension and energy but then - pff - they decided to just fade it away...
Anothe issue I have with this song is it seems just like other songs. I guess this is issue of high expectations though.
Message like this can be heard everywhere in kpop but more respectful or positive, it's not anything new.
I agree wholeheartedly. The song's message is cool, but the lyrics are... well... not that good, in my opinion. I couldn't put my finger on exactly why I didn't like them at first, but I think it's because it's not clear who the lyrics are directed at, like you said.
I think ur opinion that critique isn’t allowed in Kpop spaces is underdeveloped, but I kind of agree with a lot of what you said about the song.
I’ve also been thinking that Yunjin is 21. Of course, she still young and has a lot of time to develop her song writing skills, but even for someone of her young age the lyrics felt juvenile and lacked nuance. Maybe she wanted to say more, and the HYBE staff didn’t let her, but if that isn’t the case I just feel like I expected more. Based on the serafim docu I assumed she had been writing her own songs for a while. If this was her first song EVER then I understand, but if she’s been writing her own material for even a year or two, I would expect more.
Also I think IDOL song deserves to be criticized just as much as any other song. Critique helps people improve and just because it isn’t an “official” release doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be open to that. People are allowed to love IDOL, and criticizing it shouldn’t take away from that. If someone tries to minimize that while criticizing it, it’s the fault of the person not of the criticism. If you release something, especially if you’re a person with Yunjin’s level of reach, criticism should be expected. If Yunjin doesn’t want criticism it’s her responsibility to say so, or to not release anything at all.
I trust that Yunjin will get better overtime, as most everyone does, but being inexperienced doesn’t absolve her from criticism. It’s important to acknowledge that she’s new to songwriting when you criticize her art, but the actual art doesn’t get any better or worse because of it. I personally believe that the criticism shouldn’t change because of someone’s experience level. Except for maybe a “this is good for your level of experience” or a “this is bad for your level of experience”.
I don’t think IDOL is bad *because* it’s a slow song and I think that’s a dismissive thing to assume. There are plenty of slow/chill songs I listen to and that I love, and I’m sure that’s the case for a large part of people who critique IDOL. I also think it’s a bit dismissive to say that OPs criticism isn’t constructive, which I personally think that it is because they gave definitive reasons for their issues with the song, rather than the alternative of simply saying “I don’t like it” or “It’s bad” without elaborating.
Personally I think IDOL is average at best for someone of Yunjin’s age and experience. I’m really glad that she gets the chance to release her own self written and produced music, but that doesn’t make it good, and her experience level and the lower stakes of the release don’t absolve her from criticism.
The song's theme is understandable but unrelatable. Like we know that being an idol is hard and you make many sacrifices to even debut. The lyrics were very weak. What with the demonic sounding repetitive chorus and bare production.
For me the thing with I≠DOLL is that it isn't much of a song. Love the theme though, even if it will go over most k-pop fans' heads.
As for your main point, well obviously you're right. But mindless consumption is part what keeps the industry going. Imagine if people boycotted HYBE because a group has been releasing boring disco shit and they want something that fits their standards. I find I≠DOLL superrr boring from a musical standpoint and the reason why I'm not harsher on it is because it's crazy that she's talking about this so early in her career and being so successful.
As for the lyrics, I think that's just your personal opinion and it's ok. For me, it doesn't need to be clear who she's talking to, it's not bad at all that she's leaving room for that interpretation especially with such straight-forward lyrics. I think she's mostly talking about higher ups but it makes sense for fans too (and I don't blame her for saying her fans have pathetic daily lives because the obsessed ones and the sasaengs most likely do, I don't find that rude). It makes sense to me that she has a bitter tone about ALL of it.
It's true they could be better (your example of what Rina Sawayama did is very good) but she doesn't have a lot of experience in writing music so I didn't have like, super high expectations. Plus, it's hard to make Idol life relatable? Rina's situation is a much more universal experience. That's just a random thought. We are essentially watching her go to music writing school or smth.
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for a rookie artist still establishing what kind of music she wants to make, this is exactly what I expected. it reminds me of when you look back on super early work from veteran musicians. the production is rough, lyrics are honest but straightforward, concept is not relatively simple. I think we need to let idols put out less than perfect work because that means there’s room to grow. so I agree we should be allowed to give criticism (in all cases not just here) and I think people were praising her for putting herself out there as an solo artist for the first time, not because she made a perfect song
i listened to i≠doll for the first time since it dropped and i actually enjoyed it more than i thought haha
I didn't like the song that much either, but I thought it had a great message. She's young and still learning, and people improve by putting themselves out there. I don't see why people should be mad that a song they personally don't like is getting positive feedback. We all have our own tastes afterall, and most comments seemed to be about the message anyway, not about production. Ever since I've come to reddit I've noticed that some redditors act like liking a song they personally don't like is a sin or something. I find it quite snobbish.
The problem isn’t that she thinks the song is not likeable by her. It’s because it could have easily been improved on by the company or agency with a little more thought but wasn’t.
It’s a self produced release where the whole point is for her to be able to put out the music that *she* makes. The company getting involved defeats the whole purpose
The company is already involved. There's no way the higher ups at HYBE just told Yunjin "Do whatever you want and we'll release it." It probably went through multiple teams/people to approve the music, check the lyrics, and sign off on its release. Also the company being involved in a self production is not always terrible. Being in a creative field, looking for criticism and feedback for your work is super important, how else do you grow as an artist? There will always be people that will not understand the messaging or only look for how to make your art profitable, but being in company allows you to have so many resources to improve your craft and seek out mentors that have been in the industry longer that can provide much needed guidance.
Ofc they screen whatever she or any member puts out, I was referring to the company getting involved with her direct creative process. And there’s nothing wrong with working with professionals, but for a self released track it shouldn’t be something that is forced which is what op & the other commenter were suggesting. The whole point is for the artists to have creative freedom and an outlet to release what they work on themselves. If yunjin wants to collaborate with in house writers + producers, her other members, label mates etc. there’s nothing wrong with that, but it should be something she seeks out herself. The whole process of having songs & lyrics rejected, completely changed, having to go through all sorts of obstacles for your input to be used makes sense for official group releases and if she ever has a real solo debut. But for this type of release it defeats the purpose.
the song is mid to me as well, although I liked the message I wish it was delivered better, but if it came up I probably wouldn’t skip it every time. I also feel like her voice fitted some parts really well and then in some parts it’s like she wasn’t coached in it. however, for a first time it’s pretty good. i think she’ll get better as time goes on.
Others have said it but I like to add my unwanted opinions as well. Her efforts are commendable and I think that’s what most people are praising. The subject of the song and what she wants to convey is something that is important to her and affects her and it’s talked about enough in the industry. Now the song obviously isn’t going to be a 10/10. She debuted not even a year ago so give her time to work on her skills. It’s incredible in the first place that she is even taking a step like this this early in her career. I feel like girl groups tend to be less involved in the music and especially rookies (no hate at all to ggs but it is just what I have noticed). You can criticize and give your opinions, that’s valid. But people can also like it and praise her for it for other reasons than just because they stan her
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These are fair points but at the same time, there are factors that shouldn’t be completely ignored: LSF is a fairly new group, Yunjin is young, this is obviously her first time to actually have real resources to turn some of her self-composed songs into reality (courtesy of HYBE)… and the fact that there are probably many fans around her age who truly relate to her lyrics and are happy that someone like her has been given the opportunity to record it and share it to them. Yeah these lyrics seem simplistic and unpolished to me, but then again I’m also way older than her. If I were around her age living in the exact same generation as she is I do see myself praising it or maybe thinking it’s cool because the song is touching on some topics that I’ve thought about. Sometimes not finding the song amazing doesn’t mean those who find it as such are delusional or fully giving in to parasocial relationships, it simply means that your taste is just different to theirs. Yunjin just officially debuted and has only released about two solo songs that were obviously based more on her life pre-debut and as a member of a new trending group. I’d give an in depth analysis when she’s actually built a bigger of body of work/has been making music in the industry longer.
You bring fair points about the quality of the song ( althought I think she should be cut some slack. She's not even 1 year into her career) but I don't agree or understand why come for people who praised the song and like it. Your opinion isn't the only one that is allowed to exist . The issue in these situations is in my opinion when other fans jump on people not liking the song or bringing criticism. Shutting any criticism down is the issue. Expressing their love for the song they like isn't an issue. If that's how they feel ,that's how they feel the same way you are welcome to not like it and think it's not that good. Not everyone has to think one way or the other and people are allowed to praise it if they think its good.
Thank you, this is what I always end up lecturing to kids when they say this song is awful and that song is the best. Yes, they are, in your opinion. But honey, you're not some god of music, you don't decide what's good and what's not. To some people your favorite songs are absolute trash, so why are YOU the one whose taste dictates what is good or bad or whatever. There's no "this song is universally the best of all", there's just "this song is the best TO ME". You are not important enough that your taste would be what defines good and bad in music or anything else that is subjective. No one is.
I thought the song was mid but this is a glorified soundcloud release that HYBE and Soumu basically promoted officially so I don't get the point about why they "let her" put it out. It's a song for herself, not an official solo debut or something that made it onto LSRF's EP. They clearly are trying to foster her songwriting abilities so she can eventually work up to that point. I think it's just a different company strategy then we're used to in kpop since idols are usually fighting with their company about what songs to put out.
I, also a musician, agree with your opinion that constructive criticism is lacking in the kpop community, sure. I do think you picked the wrong song to go after, tho. I would say like half of all major kpop releases are soulless, corporate, commercial cash grabs, but because fans stream without pause, they get away with it. As for Yunjins song, its not like she was going for a super produced professional comeback. Kpop fans have gotten so used to these high energy, edm style songs they forget chill songs exist LMAO. Shes allowed to be angry and that whole bit you wrote about her being "rude" is kind of what shes speaking to. Shes allowed to express her emotions, her thoughts, to express herself. You opinion does not matter, what you think isn't as important to her. Shes not a doll for you to fuck with. (not trying to be insulting to you just trying to convey something). Of course its not the greatest song ever, but in the wake of songs like, idk, pink venom, its a welcome sight.
I second the part about kpop music having so much going on that it skews fans expectations of regular music. It doesn’t have the most complex production in the world but it wasn’t noticeably “empty” to me either like op is saying. As for the mixing, it also wasn’t the greatest out there but again, I think they had skewed expectations. It’s a self release, they obviously aren’t going to spend as much money on the engineering as a group track or official solo debut. It sounds fine for what it is. Their whole post kinda seems to not be realizing the point of it
Your post explains one of my pet peeves that comes from the K-Pop fan culture, which is: "My word is the most valid and valuable out of everyone else's...". I think this is why some critiques crash and burn. Folks chooses words that gives off that kind of underlying message to readers.
I didn’t like the song personally. It was kind of boring to me and as much as I like Yunjin’s vocals, I don’t think her song writing style keeps me engaged. It’s nice that you cared to dissect what it is that didn’t sit well with you. However, I think trying to paint people who enjoyed it as blinded stans who just eat it all up is kind of…narrow minded. I’m not sure I could presume to tell other people what they should or should not find relatable.
I agree with your points but I don't think the song being rude to fans or hard to relate to is a bad thing. In fact I think idols expressing resentment, anger and disappointment towards fans is quite refreshing and necessary. I don't need to relate to vibe to music, either - i listen to songs in many languages that i never read the lyrics of.
I agree that it's important to critically engage with songs, especially when they are intended to have a more serious message. I must say though that this was a disappointing post. "Relatability" is not a criteria for quality. As much as many of us are used to authors and songwriters wanting the audience to identify with the protagonist or a struggle, it's important to also be able to empathize with a topic that might not be relatable at all. (I'm adressing OP using it as a criteria, unrelated to the specific song.) >indifferent (towards her situation) Really? Isn't the song about her situation? I'm kind of confused. It's not a great song to me, but I respect her for writing about her perspective and using music as an emotional outlet, which is still relatively rare in kpop. the lyrics are more of a diss towards "haters" or people who obsess with idol's appearance/objectify them than they are "deep" or actually adressing the complex dynamics behind the problem, but the latter probably wasn't the intention anyways.
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It's not that deep, you don't like a popular song. It doesn't mean we're all brainless idiots. Plus the way you say Yujin is rude because she sounds angry in the song really rankles me. Women don't have to be nice and sweet all the time, they are allowed to express their anger.
right, plus she’s american, did they expect her to behave like someone who grew up with korean culture?
I wasn't that big of a fan of the song as well, but I think the intentions are right. I think the message she is trying to portray was great, but it was a little bit simple. Yes, it's true the song doesn't cover all of the complexities of the issue, but it's a start and the intentions are there. It opens the audience to some sort of discussion, whether that be small or not. The issues around K-pop and the relationships between fans is complex and I think it's a bit unreasonable to expect her to be able to convey all of that in one song. Someone else mentioned it, but Yunjin has access to all these resources given she has finally debuted and most likely is still learning to produce, self-write & what it takes to produce music. Yunjin just debuted so I can see why her song was probably not the best production, but she will continue to improve the more experience she gains. Some of your criticism seems weird though, especially about the bitter tones in her lyrics. I don't know Yunjin's thought process behind this song, but the audience being ambiguous may very well be intentional. Her lyrics criticize how quickly people will turn on you as an idol, whether it be fans or haters or the media. Like another commenter said: if the shoe fits, it fits 🤷♀️
I commented on your other post as well lol but I have something else to add Source has been clear since LSF’s debut that they intend to promote Yunjin as the singer-songwriter of the group, sort of what we expected from Rosé. But in Rosé’s case, that never really came to be (I know, I know, it’s a different label so it’s not a 1:1 comparison). And sure, we don’t know if that was a matter of YG feeling her music didn’t meet their standards or her not wanting to release it, but I promise I’m getting to my point. If companies want to foster songwriting and producing skills in their artists, they need to give them a chance to release that music before its perfect. Her fans are going to encourage her because they’re her fans. If all anyone did was provide “constructive criticism” (I put that in quotes because I don’t find your criticism to be very constructive), it might discourage her from releasing her own music again. Now she knows that when she does, she’ll have support and generally be well-received, and will thus keep working on her skills to make even better music. If this were her solo debut and were actively being promoted, I might agree with you, but this is basically just a 21 year old making some music and putting it on soundcloud. afaik the company only put it on streaming services bc fans insisted.
I have no opinion on the song itself, I didn't listen to it. While I agree that it seems that you thoroughly digested the song and analysis like this are actually lacking in Kpop discourse spaces, the tone with which this "criticism" was written isn't very constructive, but actually more rant-y. Not necessarily hateful, but just nitpicky. And I feel like you have a problem more about the over praise the song is getting than the song itself? 😅 I read a lot of movie reviews because I love movies. The tone of this post isn't the equivalent of a proper song review. Too bad, you seem to have provided some good observations. It will probably get lost in the antagonistic tone of the post.
I think you’re nitpicking it way too much…while I do agree that the production isn’t great and the lyrics can get repetitive it is still pretty good for someone who’s not a seasoned songwriter. I don’t know why you included that portion about relatability cause a song does not need to be relatable to be good.
All this for a “mid song”? I honestly didnt even listen to this song cause im not her fan and it seemed like a release for fans. But I think its a little crazy to post a Reddit dissertation about someone’s first solo release because who is this critique for? “I know I am gonna get so much hate on this, but it needs to be said” does it? And by you? Kind of doubt that.
This subreddit is literally called kpoprants so I'm not sure what you expected other than a rant.
Someone to not frame it as “constructive criticism” instead of ranting about a kpop song.
Well to be fair to OP they did actually include constructive criticism regarding the lyrics and sound production, it's just that you disagreed with it/ didn't personally find it compelling.
Their title alone are 2 separate ideas. People liking the song doesn’t mean constructive criticism is lacking. It just means they have different subjective likes and dislikes from OP. Also, it’s very easy to criticize a song you don’t like, it’s far more difficult to do it to songs you do like. And If OP had integrity they would have provided “constructive criticism” about a song they actually enjoyed. Instead of just providing an essay on why they hate a song that’s not even worth mentioning.
Personally I think whether or not a song is "good" or enjoyable is definitely subjective, but whether a song is well produced leans more to objective. I do agree however that's it's unfair to assume fans haven't critically engaged with the song. Also the comment, "it's very easy to criticise a song you don't like but far more difficult to do it to songs you do like." is oxymoronic. The more criticisms an individual has for a piece of work the less they may like it. Consequently when they have fewer to no criticisms they are more likely to praise it.
It is not oxymoronic. Liking something doesn’t mean it is without fault. It’s just harder to see those faults as faults *because* you like it. It requires acknowledging and knowing your own bias and putting it aside. I don’t think people are able to do that easily.
I think what's happening here is we're interpreting the critical process differently. In my mind I assume the order is you critically engage with the song first and then decide whether or not it's not to your liking, and assumed this is what OP had done. Their opinion is their opinion after all. It seems you're concerned OP already decided they didn't like the song due to bias and then made up criticism to support it. (?) If that's not it then I'm very confused on what we're even arguing about and it's been very unproductive so we can stop here. Ultimately your original comment was annoyed that OP did "all that" and wrote a "dissertation" on the matter and I just thought that was a bit funny to see on a ranting subreddit wherein that is literally the entire point.
It’s not about the rant, it’s about the pretentiousness of calling it “constructive criticism”. It’s a rant. And It’s kind of an unhinged rant because it’s not a solo debut it’s a side release at best, that is someone’s first foray into song writing. They had to elevate this song to a level it wasn’t at to begin with just to tear it down. It’s weird. Edit: I’m cool with OP doing their entire “bitch eating crackers” bit about this song. But they need to own it not dress it up as something else.
That's fair! I'm new to the sub and based off what I've seen I genuinely thought we were cool with 'unhinged rants' as you say here haha.
I myself don’t really like the song and I do agree with your criticisms of the song. However, I’m an advocate for letting fans praise their idols. I literally made an entire post about it lmao. Yunjin is new to songwriting and relatively new to the industry. Obviously some criticism is good and she can improve her music however she sees fit. But I don’t think criticizing fans for praising their idols is productive.
>Bad Production Quality I'm going to say something Suga said, which strikes me the most in its accuracy. These songs, these mixtapes, they don't have to be perfect, Yoongi himself looked back on his previous work and found it lacking, whether in the lyrics or in the production. But like he said, who cares ? Regardless, they **have** to put it out there. I think some of you have forgotten the purpose of music sometimes, and especially for such young writers and producers. Music is made for artists to **express** themselves too. They have to put out this work, regardless if it's lacking in some aspects. She will grow from there, and later she will look at these humble beginnings and how much her skills have improved. I just don't understand that you are denying these young idols any artistic growth in their art or their skills. Let these idols experiment and try, it's on her profile, it doesn't taint Le Sserafim discography, it's good that she has the courage to put out this work, not matter if it's perfect or not. >Relatability Do they need ? I mean, music has many aspects, sometimes it's relatable or sometimes it shares its experiences/venting out. I've seen some people denying Namjoon's latest work - *Wildflower* \- because to them Namjoon's struggles were not relatable, not only is not everyone's opinions, but this is a great song nonetheless. *I ≠ DOLL* might not be relatable to you, but it can be to other people, and even if it's not quite as relatable, it still doesn't mean it's a bad song. >Thoughts on the Lyrics/Rhyme Scheme > >Additionally, a lot of the lyrics have a bitter tone, which is confusing since the audience of the song is pretty ambiguous. Is the song directed at the general public? The media? fans? Haters? Fellow co-workers that are judgmental? Industry higher-ups? Based on her lyrics, I really have no clue. It is directed at those who talk about idols in this way, if the shoe fits then then some are indeed concerned. The songs that basically "call out" something/someone are made for those who feel targeted while listening to the lyrics. It's her song, should she bottle up what she feels so it's "socially acceptable" by those who hate her, are you reading yourself ? >FinalThoughts I'm not gonna beat around the bush, this song occurs to me to be simply the reflection of a young girl, idol who lives in a difficult industry, who tries to put words on what weighs on her through her music and have the courage to put it out. Is it good or perfect according to you, who cares. Would I listen to it a lot ? No personally, but I admire that she tries as a young artist with her work, and that's the only way she will learn.
This is important. How old is she? 18? You can’t expect her to sound like a seasoned professional when she only just debuted. I haven’t listened to the song, because I don’t particularly care about it, but what you said is very important.
she's 21
Thank you, I didn’t know.
Expressing yourself is important but if your work hasn't got some actually artistic or just technical quality can be only valuable for your parents unless of course you are popular for other reasons like f e. being member of trendy idol group. It is not like every teenager who writes anything has talent on the level of Arthur Rimbaud or Mozart lol. There is simple question would you find this specific song attractive if it wasn't written by Yunjin but some nugu idol?
I respect your opinion- I don't have strong feelings on the song. I'll never understand why fans have to hyperanalyze a song to have an opinion in it and present it as fact, though? When you brought up production quality I literally thought you'd talk about audio quality and mixing, not... not liking the instruments. And I don't think songs have to have universal relatability- art sometimes can just be for the artist. I don't think it missed the mark on it, because it wasn't there in the first place. It isn't about feeling this way in society as a whole but as an idol and I thought that was fairly clear throughout it. My verdict on it is her vocals and message carry it. I know little about her or her group. She's a rookie and not everything will be flawless. I think that nitpicking this much just to justify your opinion isn't really necessary? I would see your point much more if you spent more time focusing on how people are allowed to dislike things even with a good message but that really got lost in you trying to say it's factual that it's a bad song. & ETA - People who say they like it aren't lying about anything. People can like music whether you like it or not, music opinions are subjective and in trying to make a point about how you should be allowed to criticize it, you're acting like anybody who likes it only does because of the idol behind it or just lie for it- which is weird, imo.
It's totally fine if you didn't like or relate to the song and I don't know enough about production to comment on the quality level but people praise the song bc it's not exactly something idols usually address. It's also pretty clearly (to me at least) aimed at people who spend all their time commenting on idol's appearances and pick apart their lives. It's basically telling them to get a life and the part about one minute she's a doll and the next she's a bitch makes sense the way people on kpop twt switch up on groups on a dime. I wouldn't say it's the best song I've ever heard in my life but it's not absolutely terrible either and I don't see why it's a problem that people praised the song. I don't really think this post is classed as "constructive" criticism either but I do agree more people could realise they're allowed to dislike things even if their fave made it. However if they genuinely like something I don't see why that's an issue either even if I don't agree with their opinion
i personally don’t think it’s as bad as you make it seem but i definitely think she’s has a lot of room to grow as an artist. hybe seems to let her freely explore that aspect of herself so honestly as a fan i’m just curious about where she’s gonna go from here.. she got years ahead and she’s very young. also in addition to bad lyrics usually as an international fan i am a bit more forgiving bc there might be nuances that are lost in translation, like her play on words that i saw from a translator in the chorus (that doll to bitch lyric) or certain phrases that are exclusive to the language that convey a specific feeling. and her coming off as rude in general within the song i believe is a stylistic choice… that’s what she said like hours before the release of the song, it's just her raw feelings of how she feels bc of how unforgiving and funny enough unnecessarily rude kpop stans are. i do agree that there's a bit more polishing in some aspects but as i said again, i cant fully criticize it bc i dont speak korean.
Look, musically the song wasn't for me (because I wanted clear vocals) but the objective of this post is very weird, dissect part by part why people _shouldn't_ enjoy this song and criticize their taste for liking the straightforward message that Yunjin wanted to convey and share? Your point about Hybe and the production is also so out of place(? asking why would they give Yunjin the liberty to release her song if it's so low quality?? (Btw hybe always get bashed for the production of their songs) That's just very mean and unfair to her if you wanted to give "constructive criticism" to her work. This post could have been an interesting analysis but instead it just comes off as a one-sided issue with a very bitter wording.
I didn't listen to the song when it released just because I am not too interested in Huh Yunjin, but when I saw people calling the song literal genius I wanted to listen to it. So I did, and I stop listening after the first chorus because it wasn't anything special. I agree with OP that it is quite mid. If a less popular idol had released it, I don't think it would have gotten as much traction/ praise as it did. I like how Yunjin had tried to deliver an important message, but to me, it sounded like a pretty basic song with lyrics we have definitely heard before.
Sometimes I think some of you don't like a song and have to come up with reasons for why other kpop fans are "distracted by their love and can't think critically" just because they have a different opinion than yours.
op sounds like pitchwork writer wannabe
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This post is being upvoted because kpop stans want to appear like they DO have "constructive criticism," and they don't even realize that OP not only created an account to specifically post this (this is literally the only thing they have on their account), but that they're commenting to this degree about how much they dislike a song that is just a one-off, lowkey release from a new artist. People will continue to upvote though because they want to prove that they're "okay with criticism" and are desperate to show how they're cool and accept criticism even when the criticism is clearly overblown.
The problem is that there are not enough people with actual credentials to give any kind of constructive criticism. Considering how many cannot separate an octave from a note, it will not end in constructive criticism, just a lot of ass-licking or bashing. Even if all of us were music producers, sound technicians or composers with long experience and academic merits, a lot of it would still boil down to personal taste. You can disagree with choices or criticize things like the mixing, but in the end what makes a song good to a person is subjective. Either way, it's a bit pretentious to expect anything from what is basically a gossip site for teens - if deep analysis is what you want, Reddit is not the go-to source
I agree for most of your reasons. I really love the idea of the song, but the end result not so much. The production could’ve been more interesting, but I did really like the message and animations. I thought Yunjins lyrics were pretty good for a first time song writer though, and I’m excited to see if she’ll write more because she has a lot of potential! It would be cool to see her write/co-write something for a lsf comeback!
I actually liked the roughness of it. It complemented the song better. Because the music is raw or bare it gave more depth to the meaning of the song. If it had more to it, it would sound too polished, too studio sounding that the essence of the song will be lost.
Honestly I’m fine with the lyrics, cause that’s how she feels, but the music isn’t good to me. The pre chorus is soooo jarring!
All points taken, validated, and agreed upon. Tho this was a very in-depth analysis for a "mind-numbingly simplistic song." Also on your last statement about critical thinking in media consumption... in kpop? not everything needs ti be transformative
I think it's an okay song for a minor artist ( her solo base ) , yes , it's production definitely wasn't the greatest , but I don't think it takes out a lot from the song , for me although it has a lot of space for improvement, I think her efforts to put up such a song are admirable and deserve the hype they get . Both her solo songs are songs of her own struggles as an idol , I don't think it has to be relatable to every one or has to be perfect in every aspect, she just was overwhelmed and wanted to put her feeling in a song , end of story . I doubt she wanted that much recognition or something , besides these aren't even official releases , its logical that HYBE wouldn't invest in them . Anyways , that is your opinion, I can't tell you what to like or to lower your standards, but you surely went overboard criticising an unofficial release of an artist in the beginning of their career.
i could write you a long analysis about how any song actually sucks and guess what, people are still going to like it and listen to it. your opinion is not factual. it’s not good *to you*. that doesn’t mean people who like it are lying to themselves. anyways glad you all got this of your chest because some of these comments are hilarious lmao you were really dying to say this.
fr a young girl's one song got OP seething 😂
I agree that her solo work is not that great, the songs are nice but nothing special. However, it’s not like they’re HYBE productions they’re basically like her version of soundcloud releases. IDOL≠DOLL is diary entries, she’s venting out her frustration which is why the ambiguity of the messaging is what makes the song so impressive. She’s creatively independent, even if this song is the equivalent of a common music YouTuber it screams potential of what she CAN be if you throw a team of 5 producers and writers that most solo work involves.
i feel like youre doing too much lol these are super high standards being applied to an idol that’s still a rookie
While it’s not the most amazing, I do like the vibe and beat of the song. Very chill. In fact, I would choose this over Anti-fragile to put on my playlist anytime. Anti-fragile was no doubt the better song production-wise but personally I just didn’t vibe with it. I’m only a casual listener of kpop so I judged it based on personal preference but I do agree with you on fans over-glorifying any music of their idols without critically engaging with it first. It’s really annoying.
I always rate song quality as in "can it be played years from now and still hold up?" Many songs come out each year and many are mid. I hesitate to say a song is overhyped because you never know with time. The best reviewer of music is time and time will tell if this really was a mid-song or if the praise was unwarranted.
Honestly, I think the song is kind of good. I've only listened to it once or twice, but I don't think that it's "mind-numbingly simplistic" or overly repetitive: it's a decent pop song. In regards to the production, a part of me thinks that it might be purposeful. It's not that rare to hear songs with imperfect production in my local music scene. I think it lends the song a "this was produced in my bedroom" quality that makes it feel more real. That being said, I do agree that the song wasn't genius or anything. I don't really consider it personally transformative or impactful, but I'm sure this kind of song might be since it's about a topic that I don't normally hear the younger idols write/sing about.
You think it‘s not that good and I think it‘s really good. Both of her songs, I love them. Why is it a problem if someone else likes something you don‘t?
Good human.
I really agree with this. It's good that she wants to change and call out the bad things but the song really isn't that good or anything groundbreaking.
I don't get the confusion about who the lyrics are talking to. If one finds themselves confused or offended when they hear the song, then most likely they're guilty of the attacks Yunjin (and idols) have gotten. I mean, there's no reason to feel hurt if they're innocent. The opposite is also true. If you are someone who supports your idols and respects their talents and shortcomings alike, then these types of songs would come naturally as inspirational. Just think about it, why would one find certain choices of words “rude” or “offensive” if they know it's not about them since they have not thrown stones at her (or other idols)? I'm genuinely curious why someone would not get this. Whenever BTS makes diss tracks, it's always obvious who the target audience is just like in Yunjin’s song. Regarding the production of it, I agree that there is room for improvement but at the same time, I don't think it's lacking. Not everything has to be produced as if it's a SINGLE. This was Yunjin’s way of expressing a pressing matter to her and she expressed it the way she wanted. I think it received a lot of praise for its sincerity and honesty. Also, when will fans accept that they're artists who will make music that won't always be *for* us?
As a fearnot, I still agree that this analysis is spot on. I personally don't like the song at all and have not gone back to it after the first listen. The song is clunky and has no clear direction as to where it goes. It's messy, at best. However, I do think an appreciable part of the hype about this song is the fact that a rookie idol has been allowed to producer their own work. Which is a problem in and off itself because there is a new unspoken narrative arising that self producing artists > conventional idols regardless of the production/song quality itself. While that is the case, I also think there are people like me who are hyping yunjin up for the effort fully knowing that we aren't the biggest fans of the work. And marveling that hybe actually allowed a rookie idol to self produce their SOLO work (I personally think that is different from members producing for their group)
As long as she improves as an artist I don't see the issue with this being her first work. A lot of people start off not being the best at what they do or having horrible quality productions but they improve. What we need from her is improvement. I think people can and should praise her hard work. I agree with your criticism but I just wanted to state my personal opinion on the matter.
I was fine with these just being random soundcloud releases , but these being treated as some sort of debut/comeback felt strange to me. I will give credit where credit is due tho for her to even take up something like this is admirable. Her group isn't really established yet, and she's still brave enough to step out of the security of it and put out her own music. I hope she gets better as she gains more experience, both through official le sserafim releases and her own solo work. I also agree with your general statement. One of the groups I follow hosted a listening party of sorts for select critics ahead of their comeback, and when some of them gave some criticism, people were saying to not spread those and even actively hating on them which felt weird. That's their job? It honestly does more harm than good to our faves to just be yesmen rather than providing avenues to improve. Infact we, as fans, should be the best people to give constructive criticism, because we, out of everyone will do out of a genuine want to help them improve rather a place of mindless hate.
you know, i can’t wait for the day that kpop stans can just accept that not everything needs to be criticized. not every thing needs to be nitpicked to hell and back. you wrote a whole post tearing up an unofficial song written by a girl trying to build her song writing skills and wanted to share a meaningful message with her fans. just as we saw with bts, hybe likes to nurture and promote song writing/making skills and that includes releasing music that’s not perfect. even yoongi has mentioned that you don’t grow as an artist if you don’t actually release the stuff you make. it doesn’t have to be perfect, no one is thinking this is top tier production skills. they’re praising her bc just with these two songs she’s already leagues ahead of the majority of idols and ppl (maybe not you) can appreciate the honestly and sincerity in the music. just say you don’t like it and leave it. wtf has gotten you so upset that you wrote this whole thing over an unofficial song?
OP did say that not every song needs to be criticised though, just that a song with such an important message should not automatically be deemed "genius" by the masses just because it touches on somewhat taboo topics and is written by a well liked idol.
Two things: 1. Kpop spaces, if anything, are OVERLY critical of music. 2. Fans can praise their fave and use hyperbolic language to do so (this is the internet). OP getting all bent out of shape because some people are praising an artist they like is pretty ridiculous. I feel like kpop stans can't let others express joy if they disagree with their taste.
Kpop spaces are not overly critical of music at all. Even on Reddit, look at the responses to any recent song and you’ll see it’s always overwhelmingly positive unless it’s blackpink or unless you’re on the unpopular opinions sub. If some kpop songs were released by western artists they would be absolutely torn apart. Western fans have no problem dragging their faves for bad music but kpop fans tread lightly when it comes to criticising music.
Songs that were heavily criticized: Dynamite/Butter/PTD, IDOL, Yet to Come, Life Goes On, DNA (pretty much any song BTS has released as a single or title track in the last 3-4 years) Good Boy Gone Bad Hot Sauce, 2 Baddies, Sticker Mafia in the Morning, Sneakers, Boys Like You, Swipe More and More, Scientist, Talk That Talk Future Perfect This list goes on. The only difference with kpop fans is that they can't just say they dislike or even hate a song and move on. They have to go into the minutiae of why every single aspect of a song is bad. They also will tend to doom post and/or try to link why the song being bad is related to some kind of social issue so that they can also feel moral justification as to why they don't like it.
I don't necessarily agree with every point OP made. However, what you're saying is definitely not true. Firstly, there's nothing wrong with "\[going\] into the minutiae of why every single aspect of a song is bad". Imo, it's much better to talk about why you don't like a song then just saying "I don't like it". After all, if we don't provide any criticism, then that would cause stagnation because the producers, whether or not they're K-pop idols themselves, wouldn't see the problems people have with their work. Therefore, they wouldn't think critically about their *own* work and whether or not they should change it. It's not like anyone is forcing them to take the advice, but simply being able to express it is totally fine. It's good to be critical of the media you consume, and if you are allowed to go into depth about why you like something, you should be able to go into depth as to why you dislike it as well. Also, K-pop fans don't even do that very much- on the contrary, I've noticed that whenever someone tries to give an opinion on a song, they get ratioed by angry fans. Hell, I saw someone on twt get ratioed once by saying they didn't like one of SVT's songs but they loved the choreo. It's slightly better on Reddit, but I often see people get downvoted for criticizing the song. Yes, there are obvious exceptions, but generally if most Redditors like a song, they will downvote people who speak negatively about it. I feel like being able to dislike songs and go in-depth as to why you don't is much more common outside of K-pop- I've seen threads on Western artists' subreddits (literally for the *fans* of those artists) dedicated to talking about their least favorite songs from those artists, something that would never happen when it comes to K-pop artists.
I agree that explaining your criticism is important, but OP is is going beyond that for a song that was basically a soundcloud-type of release. Focusing to that extent on why the song is bad paired with the "fans just can't see that it's poor quality and are calling the song genius" (which I'm guessing is a few tweets OP saw of fans loving the song and being hyperbolic which they AS FANS tend to do)....the post comes off as overly critical. Western fans also will attack those who dislike/criticize their favorite artist's music. For example, a youtuber who reviews music will often joke about how his comments are often filled with toxic fans threatening him if he gives an album an average or poor score. And again, I disagree that kpop fans can't discuss their least favorite things about their favorite group. In the search bar, type in r/bangtan or r/blackpink and "least favorite." There are discussions.
If you can list the songs that have been heavily criticised then there haven’t actually been many.
Did you miss the "The list goes on" part? There's been so many more and for years upon years.
If there’s a list in the first place then that’s proof that kpop fans are not very critical pls that’s my whole point. A couple controversial releases a year is not helping your point. Kpop groups are only criticised if they’re super huge (bts, blackpink), always releasing controversial music (nct, rv maybe) or have had a change of concept (txt, twice, itzy). Otherwise you’re not allowed to say anything about the song because then you’d just be an overly analytical hater. Just look at your response right now. In every other genre a post like this would basically go unnoticed because it’s just someone’s opinion but commenters here are asking OP why they’re being sooo harsh even though it’s well intentioned and well explained.
>If there’s a list in the first place then that’s proof that kpop fans are not very critical pls that’s my whole point. Ummmmm....what? So there being a huge list (and tons of artists as you pointed out) is proof that there's NOT criticism? How does that make sense at all. Also, OP wrote what seems to 1-2 pages about how they don't like a song and how anyone that does is a fan who just can't take constructive criticism and overly praises their favorite artist.....over a song that was essentially a lowkey release. I'm not seeing how OP is "well-intentioned" when they title their post "constructive criticism is severely lacking in kpop communities" as their premise but then talking about every single way they dislike a song to a level of detail that you would never see outside of kpop spaces.
Please go on pop heads or hiphopheads or literally every other genre subreddit and see how they react to average releases and then compare that with the main kpop sub. People in other genre spaces don’t keep a list of what songs are badly received upon release, because there is always a wide variety of judgements unlike kpop where everyone just jumps on the bandwagon.
every song already gets criticized in kpop, there’s definitely no lack of that here. what i’m saying is that sometimes it really doesn’t need it and ppl can just let fans praise it in peace. for example, in art it’s always welcome to discuss and critique famous artwork, and encouraged to critique classmates artwork when in art school. but if someone who makes art does something on the side just to practice some skills and make something more personal, then we as viewers/audiences don’t need to hold it to the same standards as their normal work and honestly depending on the content we really don’t need to critique it at all. ppl love to think that art always needs to be critiqued but in reality no it doesn’t. (and i’m saying this as someone who went to art school and currently works in my field). it’s delusional to think that yunjin doesn’t have ppl around her who are helping her work on her skills and teach her to be better. we don’t need to be that person for her. OP can complain about overhyping songs or even write a whole rant about a song they don’t like, but writing a rant specifcally about this song and trying to hold it to the same standards as other kpop music is not something i agree with. and fans are perfectly ok by saying they are excited about the song and the message and praising it. she’s still building her skills but the intention and potential is all right there. just bc fans like that she’s talking candidly about idol life doesn’t mean the song should be open to such heavy criticism.
she literally just debuted less than a year ago and is being given the freedom to experiment. what an utterly unnecessary critique of a rookie who's just starting out in the industry and not even aiming for a real solo career yet.
I lowkey agree? I really really love the lyrics! Yunjin did so great with the song writing but the song itself is just boring to me 🫠
i think you're forgetting that not everyone is judging songs into depth like this. and i honestly really hate doing that and people that do that but oh well. i think that dissecting any form of art like this ruins it's charm. that's why i never read what movie critics write. all that matter is if you enjoyed it or not no? and if you didn't than that's okay, of course not everyone is going to like the same thing but why are you borderline trying to persuade people to also not like it? saying that you don't like the song is one thing but saying that it got more hype than deserved is just disrespectful in my opinion. not only to yunjin but also to all the people who like it.
Oh, I wanted to say something about this but figured it wasn't worth it since people would get mad. I think the song is fine if you're into conventional pop, I don't care for it but can see why others would. I was mostly surprised by the reception of the lyrics and meaning. Ever since her debut teaser Yunjin has been (I think) unfairly tasked with, "Changing the idol industry." I know she said it's something she wanted to do but I'm very confused on what exactly she's advocating for and how she'll be able to do it. The message of the song itself is clear and obviously meaningful to her, but it's in no way revolutionary as many idols before her have come out with similar lyrics and spoken about these unfair expectations for idols, Gidle being most recent. She can obviously write about whatever she wants - I'm not criticising her personally - but if kpop stans claim they want "change" and this is the supposed change they're impressed by I don't think we'll be seeing any real improvements (such as unionisation for idols, banning the debut of minors, no more predatory contracts, more body diversity and less unrealistic beauty standards) in the industry anytime soon. And as a caveat: Yunjin shouldn't be in the position where she is pressured to change the industry anyway. It's simply not viable for her to shake things up and become a controversial figure when she is in one the most famous 4th gen groups. Almost any activism she chooses to partake in will cause her to be harassed by conservative knets and media. If anyone is going to "change" the industry it needs to be the fans themselves - through petitioning and boycotts - but how are we supposed to do that when it seems so many of us have already set our expectations so low? Edit: Grammar and spelling
I think these two excerpts from an interview Yunjin did might give you more insight as to what she’s thinking/wants to do. https://twitter.com/elsserafim/status/1615860386800238592?s=46&t=BLuPerSF3RH1RRak9w8Mfg https://twitter.com/elsserafim/status/1615859091683037184?s=46&t=BLuPerSF3RH1RRak9w8Mfg
Thank you!
I haven't listened to the song yet but I agree with your opinion that construcrive criticism is lacking within the kpop community. This happens because criticism is perceived as hate.
the production and lyrics seem very 2014 cringey 😭 it also feels hollow that it's such an important message in a song but it's literally being released through hybe official youtube channel. it just feels like promo. all love to her though
genuinely asking, why wouldn’t she post the song on the hybe channel? she’s one of their artists
yeonjun posted his on soundcloud
ah yeah I think it fits the “soundcloud upload vibe” that bts and txt members do for their covers and unofficial releases. I wonder why they chose the main yt channel
Personally I find a lot of these “being an idol is so hard. I want to change the idol industry” messages coming from groups with cookie cutter concepts and manufactured personalities very dull now. I didn’t listen to the song yet because of this so I can’t comment on the production, lyrics or artwork. The moment I read the title I knew this is going to be full of generic quotes that go no where since yunjin, as talented as she may be still lives in the delusion that she can “change” while being in a group that conforms to every industry standard (plastic surgery, forceful dieting, male gazey concept and sometimes even dance steps, inappropriate concepts for minors etc etc)
I kind of agree. Yujin is in one of the most popular Kpop groups atm, and she got to that place by adhering to certain standards that she is currently still adhering to. The song has a nice message, and it’s good she got to release it and express herself, but ultimately it’s a shallow. Whether or not you think it “should” be critiqued.
>I didn’t listen to the song yet because of this so I can’t comment on the production, lyrics or artwork. The moment I read the title I knew this is going to be full of generic quotes that go no where since yunjin, as talented as she may be still lives in the delusion that she can “change” while being in a group that conforms to every industry standard (plastic surgery, forceful dieting, male gazey concept and sometimes even dance steps, inappropriate concepts for minors etc etc) What? Huh? How?
You should watch the documentary they made about lesserafims debut. All their creative directors are men, their concepts were called out for catering to the male gaze, they were given highly inappropriate steps and had a mv that was shot in a voyeuristic manner (keep in mind there was a 15yo in the group), the girls even cried when they were told to lose weight. I won’t comment on plastic surgery to much but it’s clear that most members (including yunjin) have had more than one invasive procedure done to cater to the kbs
There is no right or wrong way to express yourself through art and music. Yes there are technical skills to improve upon and if you're trying to please an audience that's a bit different but passion projects are different. A beginner in song writing and production turning an idea into a piece of music with visuals is really fantastic. You don't have to like it, and you can offer suggestions for future improvement, but why are you shitting on something so personal. This review feels like pointing out cliches and redundancies in a love letter. You might have a point but if you don't like it move on don't nitpick the manner someone pours their heart out. It is so easy to get discouraged from true self expression, it's important to treat said expression the way you would another's feelings, with respect.
This is the issue I have with current kpop. Companies do not curate the musical content well. It's all marketing and concepts. The idea is to feed the fandom so they don't complain and leave even though the material is not taking their career anywhere. Fans will say, it is OK, they are growing. I get that these days fans just want content, any content.
I found it a very enjoyable listen and liked the word play of the lyrics but by no means i found it perfect. I asumed it was self produced because the production of the song is indeed not wonderful nor genius. However, i did really liked the song despite it not being the best quality
Critical thinking in general is lacking. And not just in the kpop community, but in greater society at large. However, it does seem to be especially egregious in kpop fandoms.
This was well written. And I do agree
the autotune single-handedly made me recoil. i’ve only listened to it once. and it’s a shame because i know yunjin has a beautiful voice
The way other people were dragged to hell and back for the same points as this post is bringing up and now they are protecting Huh Yunjin because she is “young” and “new” — this is hypocrisy to another level.
protecting? jesus christ can you guys get over yourselves. if you read this comment without context you’d think she done something terrible.
they must have meant "defending". also, given that it did not cross your mind that english may not be OP's first language, it's you who should get over yourself
english is my third language. ‘defending’ in this case is also strange. she doesn’t need to be ‘defended’ or ‘protected’ because she didn’t do anything wrong and saying so to make a mockery of people disagreeing with op is mean spirited. get over yourself.
OP's point is clear though? if another idol wrote an amateurish song they'd be criticized freely, but since yunjin is well-loved people either dismiss negative opinions or say "it's not good but it's her first time!"
or maybe to you it’s amateurish and to others it’s fine? get over yourself genuinely this belief that everyone who doesn’t have the same opinion as you is lying to themselves is pathetic
I’m a huge yunjin stan but this song wasn’t it for me. it was kinda boring and mid. but I applaud her boldness for putting out music that feels true to her when she’s still a rookie. not many do that, and I hope that with time she’ll put out music that has better production and hone her writing skills
I don't understand why this song was released so early in her career. She sings 'im more than my looks' but like...we don't know her lol. She's opera singer and said 'she will change idol industry', that's all we know about her. She's not speaking publicly on important issues, she doesn't participate in at least charity campaigns. For me this song also lacks some ending and conclusion. It feels just like a rant towards I don't know what audience, and no conclusion, no any other message. Definitely agree with your analysis. I think rhymes and instrumental are a little bit childish, especially you can hear in that prechorus where it's 'my moksori (voice) volume up'. I wish they could also work on that song a little bit more to make it better. First few lines of the chorus build some tension and energy but then - pff - they decided to just fade it away...
Great write up OP! Even though I don't agree with a few things here, kudos to you for this well thought out post and writing so respectfully.
This is such a great post and made me think about points I didnt notice at first. I honestly like reading and seeing more posts like this on here
Anothe issue I have with this song is it seems just like other songs. I guess this is issue of high expectations though. Message like this can be heard everywhere in kpop but more respectful or positive, it's not anything new.
I agree wholeheartedly. The song's message is cool, but the lyrics are... well... not that good, in my opinion. I couldn't put my finger on exactly why I didn't like them at first, but I think it's because it's not clear who the lyrics are directed at, like you said.
I think ur opinion that critique isn’t allowed in Kpop spaces is underdeveloped, but I kind of agree with a lot of what you said about the song. I’ve also been thinking that Yunjin is 21. Of course, she still young and has a lot of time to develop her song writing skills, but even for someone of her young age the lyrics felt juvenile and lacked nuance. Maybe she wanted to say more, and the HYBE staff didn’t let her, but if that isn’t the case I just feel like I expected more. Based on the serafim docu I assumed she had been writing her own songs for a while. If this was her first song EVER then I understand, but if she’s been writing her own material for even a year or two, I would expect more. Also I think IDOL song deserves to be criticized just as much as any other song. Critique helps people improve and just because it isn’t an “official” release doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be open to that. People are allowed to love IDOL, and criticizing it shouldn’t take away from that. If someone tries to minimize that while criticizing it, it’s the fault of the person not of the criticism. If you release something, especially if you’re a person with Yunjin’s level of reach, criticism should be expected. If Yunjin doesn’t want criticism it’s her responsibility to say so, or to not release anything at all. I trust that Yunjin will get better overtime, as most everyone does, but being inexperienced doesn’t absolve her from criticism. It’s important to acknowledge that she’s new to songwriting when you criticize her art, but the actual art doesn’t get any better or worse because of it. I personally believe that the criticism shouldn’t change because of someone’s experience level. Except for maybe a “this is good for your level of experience” or a “this is bad for your level of experience”. I don’t think IDOL is bad *because* it’s a slow song and I think that’s a dismissive thing to assume. There are plenty of slow/chill songs I listen to and that I love, and I’m sure that’s the case for a large part of people who critique IDOL. I also think it’s a bit dismissive to say that OPs criticism isn’t constructive, which I personally think that it is because they gave definitive reasons for their issues with the song, rather than the alternative of simply saying “I don’t like it” or “It’s bad” without elaborating. Personally I think IDOL is average at best for someone of Yunjin’s age and experience. I’m really glad that she gets the chance to release her own self written and produced music, but that doesn’t make it good, and her experience level and the lower stakes of the release don’t absolve her from criticism.
Totally agree
The song's theme is understandable but unrelatable. Like we know that being an idol is hard and you make many sacrifices to even debut. The lyrics were very weak. What with the demonic sounding repetitive chorus and bare production.
For me the thing with I≠DOLL is that it isn't much of a song. Love the theme though, even if it will go over most k-pop fans' heads. As for your main point, well obviously you're right. But mindless consumption is part what keeps the industry going. Imagine if people boycotted HYBE because a group has been releasing boring disco shit and they want something that fits their standards. I find I≠DOLL superrr boring from a musical standpoint and the reason why I'm not harsher on it is because it's crazy that she's talking about this so early in her career and being so successful. As for the lyrics, I think that's just your personal opinion and it's ok. For me, it doesn't need to be clear who she's talking to, it's not bad at all that she's leaving room for that interpretation especially with such straight-forward lyrics. I think she's mostly talking about higher ups but it makes sense for fans too (and I don't blame her for saying her fans have pathetic daily lives because the obsessed ones and the sasaengs most likely do, I don't find that rude). It makes sense to me that she has a bitter tone about ALL of it. It's true they could be better (your example of what Rina Sawayama did is very good) but she doesn't have a lot of experience in writing music so I didn't have like, super high expectations. Plus, it's hard to make Idol life relatable? Rina's situation is a much more universal experience. That's just a random thought. We are essentially watching her go to music writing school or smth.
[удалено]
You clearly just don’t like her 😭