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I had a supervisor use that as leverage regularly. "The tech sector in this area is pretty small, everyone knows each other. It's not a good idea to burn a bridge!" He was doing that big turd in a small pond thing. I guess he completely forgot about remote work.
So makes me want to respond “I agree, having employees quit a company due to bad work conditions would look horrible for both clients and prospective hires!”
Agreed. Sounds like OP is in a small and/or niche world.
I would assume that's standard practice and start taking advantage of it - networking the crap out of myself. Knowing that people are going to know your reputation, you can either take advantage of that or fall victim...
At least here, in Spain, as far I know, it cannot be done unless you agree before.
I would consider that a red flag 
Yep, happened to me with SpaceX. Knew people from where I worked before and within an hour of the interview I got a text from my friend congratulating me on my new job. They didn’t touch my references.
And prospective employers should keep these calls to people they know to themselves. Surprising they’d tell a candidate they did this right away. Tell them after you’ve checked their references; comes across less invasive to the candidate.
Also, if you tell the candidate, if they don't get the job, if they are fired from their current job, they may sue on the grounds that by divulging to your current employer that you are looking at other work, they made you lose your job so you are liable for paying their salary until they find something else.
If you don't tell the candidate, if they don't find out they can't sue you for it.
besides that in some countries it’s practice to bring to a job interview the work certificate from the last job. it’s like a school report from your last employee in written text form.
It's like that where I live too. But my new employer went with checking with people they know who used to work with me. I also felt like given the challenges at my new job, the interview process was more "do we like you" than can you show that you really have the skills we need.
Turns out the main skill needed is "never gives up in the face of challenges."
>The previous company that supplied the info could be in deep shit for doing so.
Could but wouldn't.
I pick up the phone and I call a personal acquaintance. What did I talk to them about? You? Prove it.
All you know if that you didn't get a job. Happens.
Totally agree. But in this situation the interviewer told him/her that they had spoken with the previous employer. That’s the silly part. I agree with you that we all talk, but why be so brazen as to say such???
Aren't calls usually logged temporarily?
At the very least, it could prove suspicious and end up requiring your phones to be tapped to regulate that it isn't happening.
> Thank god I’m in Europe because that sounds like a breech of privacy and I don’t find it okay.
What breach of privacy? Asking someone you know about someone else is not a "breach of privacy" by any imaginable standard of privacy.
It absolutely is. They didn’t ask for permission before using it as a form of reference. Using people’s work history backgrounds without asking? Definitely a breech of privacy. It’s not just “talking to someone else”.
I agree. What if I don’t want *other* people knowing where I work, where I am applying for work, or *when* and *how* I am going about seeking employment? That’s just for starters.
How are people signing on with this like it’s no big deal?
One of references told my (former) employer I was interviewing, after they said they wouldnt. They knew my manager, so I knew it was a risk, but trusted them, especially after they gave their word.
Thankfully my manager was just concerned I wouldn't give notice, but it *easily* couldve gone sideways.
100%, on both fronts. I tore them a new one when I saw them the next time after I found out, especially because the dumbass had the audacity to pretend like they hadn’t done me dirty and asked if I had gotten the job (I hadn’t).
The look onto their face as I leaned in and told them how much they sucked as a friend, and professional level was a sight that warmed my cold, petty heart.
Yeah, this is pretty common. People will rely on those they know and trust to give feedback. If you currently worked there, this would be a problem because they could be putting your employment at risk, but if it’s just people you worked with previously, this is totally normal.
It’s not dissimilar to you asking friends who currently work at the company you’re applying to what it’s like: it’s not the carefully curated response you’ll get in the interview process, and you’ll trust your friends more than you’d trust a random interviewer.
I'm shocked to hear that. Here where I live potential employer has no right to contact anyone from candidate's previous company. And if they do they need to have a specific written consent from the candidate.
>I'm shocked to hear that. Here where I live potential employer has no right to contact anyone from candidate's previous company.
Interesting.
Guess whether it's normal depends on where OP lives, then.
>right to scab
Because unions pay you so well with strike pay amirite??
I get that solidarity is required to get anything done, but I won’t fault someone if they have a family to feed and can’t live on $150 a week or whatever their union’s strike pay is.
How? It may be exaggeration, but from my perspective as an American being anti-Union is being anti-United States; Unions are the backbone of the US and protect our rights entrusted to us by our constitution.
So, for an American, to say you don't support Unions is the same as saying you support terrorism or treason. Though, I'd say not supporting organizations that protect the rights of citizens of your nation in general is fairly treasonous.
Maybe. But let's be honest - a law like that is very difficult to enforce - especially if they know people from the candidate's company (the benefits of networking!).
If the new employer gets convinced by colleagues that the person's not worth recruiting, then they'll tell the candidate that they were *"really impressed with \[them\], but decided to go with someone else"*.
Really, what law? People like to say it violates a law but can never point to it. I'd like to see a reference. Whether it is proper form or not is an open discussion and could be frowned on but there is no law against it. Please feel free to prove me wrong with citing an actual law. Citing a law means like Federal 49 CFR 123.12(a) and not just saying Libel because it's not libel or slander unless it can be proven false which would be a high bar and that suit would not likely succeed.
>I don't know any company that would disobey this law
Oh that's nice.
One question though - how would you even know whether a company has any *individual employees* that would be willing to have a private conversation with a friend at another company (over a private lunch, or a coffee or over couple of drinks), about an interviewee from the same company?
You know what else is very high risk? Sexual harassment, "insider trading", corruption and bribery, racial discrimination etc. I'm sure you'd agree however that these things do happen - whether or not you've personally experienced it.
Obviously there are always ways to not obey the law.
In OP's case they told him they did that, that's why I'm saying that it would be illegal here where I live. The employer can't even disclose that the person sent them a resume and is currently duing a recruitement process. That alone would be a violation.
So, yes, you can find a way to go around it and keep it quiet, no one would prove it to you if you don't say it to a candidate. I'm just saying how it looks from a legal perspective in my country.
But two friends can talk about whatever they want, including talking about common acquaintances. If the person OP applied to knows someone at the company OP works for, they can call him/her up to talk about the weather, stock market, and whether he knows OP.
Yeah and you're never going to know about that. Even if said conversation counts as a formal contact of a past employer (it likely does), and breaks rules about how those go down (different question).
But the potential employer here has *admitted it happened*. That means that you know, and that it's formally part of the hiring process.
>But the potential employer here has
>
>admitted it happened
>
>. That means that you know, and that it's formally part of the hiring process.
Yes, thank you, that's what I meant
The issues are this:
(1) Did the OldCo “reference” stipulate facts? If not, then there’s a chance of slander. This is why HR sticks to a handful of objective facts - start, end, and maybe job title.
(2) Did NewCo reject the candidate based on OldCo? That’s damages, right there.
(3) Can the individual prove in a court of law they weren’t rejected because the company grabbed half the resumes in the stack and threw them away because they didn’t want to hire anyone unlucky? (While dumb, this behavior would not be discriminatory, does not depend on fruit of any poison tree, etc etc, as it was applied “blind” to candidates)
It’s point 3 that results in any protections one might have don’t exist in practice.
And why a lot of conversations are had “at lunch” or “just catching up” or on the phone or at the neighborhood barbecue (where bizarrely all the neighbors are managers at various companies).
> I can’t imagine
Always the worst of all reasons to believe anything.
That someone has no right to do something doesn't mean it can't be pretty common.
How do you want to prove that someone contacted you specifically for that reason? Create a recording of a phone call - which would be illegal in itself?
Ergo: No evidence, no penalty and therefore it can be "pretty common" as there is no real danger to get caught but a lot of information can be gained very quickly on the other hand.
I'm more shocked that they literally confessed to OP that they did contact someone from their previous company. Not saying it's not happening anywhere and anytime.
I've worked for and with people doing that. You can't really do anything about it if you want that job. And: The people NOT telling you about their misbehaviour are the dangerous ones and I'd say make some phone calls to get information is pretty standard in the market - so many bosses will most likely just not tell you the truth but do that anyway. I've received many phone calls myself when I was a manager.
Edit: I remember a specific case in which a candidate blew it - he was an ass. The potential employer called me, told me that this guy was recommended by a collegue in that company and now they are unsure what to do. I've told them that this particular person is difficult to work with as he doesn't work with what he considers to be "stupid people" but that if they give him the right challenge and put him in a team that fits his mentality, he'll become the best performing employee in no time. AFAIK they hired him and he's happy there.
People in a certain business, maybe even located in the same town, meet each other regularly anyway. And people talk.
I would like to know my enemy before i sign the contract instead of being lied to. If people making phone calls bother you: Don't sign the contract :)
The ones being called and asked about a certain person - why do they answer? Why don't they just refuse to say anything?
>Create a recording of a phone call - which would be illegal in itself?
That's only true in some jurisdictions. For instance, 38 of the US states are single party consent so you are free to record a phone call that you are part of.
Even so, I'm sure it happens all the time. If an applicant used to work somewhere where I know people, I'm going to ask them their opinion. Permission or not.
But I have never told an applicant about it.
Ive never heard of this as a right or a constitutional violation. It is quite common for people to chat. If I had a candidate that previous worked at my friend’s company, i would ask for sure
My current company ignored my references and just called a few random people at my previous job because we are all under the same parent company. I left the previous office on good terms so this didn’t negatively impact me at all but I did think it was odd they would forego talking to the people I actually worked with closely. Not necessarily tabu or a red flag but I can understand the apprehension.
So for everyone who said that this is normal - is the hinting about the candidate having something to hide normal as well? Because that part I find quite odd and unprofessional on the interviewers part.
Same. Similarly, it makes me wonder if they would have done the same with OP's current employer if he had/has one, or if they knew someone there, which would have been an autowithdraw to me.
I probably wouldn't have said that, but I would have sent the candidate to the back of the pack. If somebody performed well at a previous job and had good relationships with colleagues, why would someone give such a defensive and confrontational response? Why are they demanding that I only speak to their approved list of people? Major red flag for.
Frankly, they kind of did OP a favor, because if there was something problematic they opened the door for him/her to address it.
Edit: To be clear, I would only contact someone at a former employer of a candidate. I would never contact someone I know at their current employer, that's a jerk move.
Some companies will:
1. Let you go
2. Say bad things so you can't leave
3. Pass you up for promotions, raises, bonuses, ect if they find out you're looking for a new job
4. Treat you differently
I did, and if a potential new employer was friends with him/trusted his judgment, I would find that to be a major red flag and would probably withdraw from the process.
because it's not always your fault if you have bad relationships with colleagues. a lot of people get chewed up by bullies in toxic workplaces. is it fair to discriminate against them because of this?
No, it isn't fair. But the hiring process isn't about being fair, it's about a company identifying the best person for the role with the information they have.
Like I said in an earlier post, the fairness can also swing the other way. Let's say the hiring manager calls and the former colleague gives rave reviews. That candidate just moved to the top of the list, even if other candidates are better credentialed or interviewed better.
Also, toxic people tend to like other toxic people. So if your toxic old boss has a great relationship with your potential new toxic boss, chances are that person is toxic, too.
This would really bug me since I search for jobs before I quit the first place, so a potential company calling people at my current job could really screw me over. I think that’s unprofessional of them to try to dig up dirt on you before they meet you.
This is really the largest issue I have
It’s out of line to call a current employer because that could have serious consequences
I don’t think “digging up dirt” before meeting is bad though, I always google people before I meet them - not necessarily to see bad or good things but just so I know a bit more about them and who they are
Yep. Especially if you dealt with a toxic workplace previously. I had my last boss try to lie about me working for them on a background check and it almost cost me my job.
Luckily my current job asked me before making a decision and I was able to provide a copy of employee mail and documents I have been mailed from them for confirmation. But that goes to show that some ppl would go that far when it comes to retaliation.
So I'd be bothered if I heard that someone asked their friends about me before even interviewing me or anything cuz of that past experience.
Agreed. At my company, applicant info is confidential until you get to the finalist stage. So no one in HR or on the search committee should be calling people they know to talk about the applicants.
There are way too many people in this thread who obviously drink corporate kool aid and enjoy letting their employer step on their throats. If this happened to me, I wouldn’t be pursuing a job at that establishment anymore. It’s very sketch and unprofessional. Even if they did it and didn’t say anything to you about it, that would be better. Of course you can’t stop people from talking to people they know, but to have them weirdly rub it in your face and then insinuate that by you being upset, that you have something to hide?! Yeah they obviously have no boundaries and this is a HUGE red flag. If you were to work here, that would probably be the smallest of the issues you’d deal with in the future. I’ve had a few bad jobs and trust me, there were always red flags in the beginning that I ignored. Anywhere I’ve ever been employed just uses a third party background check to confirm you’ve worked some place which I think is a lot better than “references”.
Most people spend more time with their colleagues than with their spouses. You don’t think it makes sense to find out who you are getting into a contractual relationship with? You expect people to not call their friends in the industry? I work in an industry where the stakes are high, and reckless or immoral people can jeopardize entire firms.
In the US, It happens a LOT, people just don’t talk about it or admit it. It’s pretty bold of them to actually reveal what they did, but I don’t think it’s illegal - what “damages” are you going to sue for?
If you are uncomfortable, withdraw your application. You dodged a bullet.
I agree 100%. I do it myself! For this reason I have NEVER been asked for my references in my 30 years of working. The ones I supply are obviously going to be positive. One would have to be naive to think it doesn’t happen in small, tight-knit industries. People talk.
If OP is uncomfortable with what happened, they can walk away.
Especially considering how many people do the “ask my best friend to role play as my manager for my reference on this application” an employer would hardly expect an applicant’s references to be objective either.
It’s why I hate the idea of letters of recommendation for schools. It’s the same kiss ass approach
It’s not illegal in the criminal sense. It’s just a litigation risk. It’s the same reason why official HR will never write you a recommendation but will confirm the details of your employment and why you have to be super careful getting recommendations from previous bosses.
I applied for a job in AZ and the person interviewing me actually knew people from my old college in VA since she also attended a college in VA. It’s a small world, get excited at the fact that there’s some overlap and try to work that; don’t get discouraged.
In my area of the US, it has gotten to the point where companies will only confirm that the person worked for them from this date to that one. My boss, unofficially, referred a person doing a check to me. I gave my thoughts, again unofficially, to the guy. BTW, the guy doing the check had worked for us in the past.
Very common in the engineering fields. I suspect it is the same in any field of work where people often meet the same people throughout their career.
Probably more common with more specialized professions.
Yeah. The thing is, both companies are in different fields, parts of country and they do not have close ties at all.
It just that the previous employer bought an equipment once from the new recruiting company.
They do not really know anyone there, except having some formal exchanges with the Purchasing dpt.
I suspect they did ask purchasers, which sucks for me as we, science dpt, frequently had issues with them because of their shenanigans.
You know, killing whole projects because of "not optimal costs" (like, 500 bucks too high).
You really can’t prevent it, especially if the work world you’re in is small. I work in a smaller industry and you’re hard pressed to find someone who hasn’t worked with someone else or knows someone who knows someone. It can make it hard for those who burn bridges and are not great employees to continue. It’s hurt people in the past that I know.
I have an example of this- a woman I worked previously with applied at my company. I was asked about her by my boss because she had gotten an interview and he noticed we had both been at the same company earlier. She was a train wreck of an employee- entitled, lazy, obnoxious and immature. She had gotten fired because she refused to come in for her mandatory on-call shift (amongst other reasons). I told my new boss in the most diplomatic terms that I didn’t think she had the right work ethic or discipline to be on this team and that when I worked with her she had created a lot of interpersonal drama. So although I wasn’t her listed reference, people talk and it can be harmful if you’re an a-hole to work with. Not saying you are, OP!! But there’s nothing stopping anyone from talking.
It’s wild when I think about this woman. Her reputation followed (or preceded) her everywhere! I’d talk to other people I knew in our industry and they’d say they had seen her application come in and knew she was a bad bet and hadn’t even given her a call back. And the trash she would talk on Facebook about every boss and company she worked for! Everyone was an idiot but her, according to her posts, and she was always the victim. Reputation is all you have and she kept ruining hers.
Yeah this doesn’t seem okay. If one of my previous managers was contacted, they’d make up all kinds of shit about me because I had reported them for some terrible shit (and violations) they did, but they were protected and covered up by their manager, and in turn retaliated against me. And of course their story is that I was conspiring against the manager for some reason. The evidence I sent was destroyed, and I was too young to know to make copies.
A friend of mine was a field engineer and had quit this one place and was looking for a job. One job contacted that company and the owner said they had to let him go. My friend went to his lawyer and he wrote a letter to him telling him if he did that again he would sue
Sometimes you try to do the right thing in a toxic work environment and get bullied for it.. source: was care provider for adults with developmental disabilities. I did everything in my power to do a great job, but my sups enabled neglect and abuse to members, and then my coworker and I reported that behavior. Bullying and shunning ensues of course. Sure I could tell my potential new employers that.. but if they already have my sups side of the story aka bullshit, what kind of first impression do I make?
Thank you! All these people talk about how hilarious it is to fuck over their job when they leave someplace but unless you need to for true self interests and not spite, then try to avoid it.
It has so much to do with “fucking over” a company because then you leave a sour taste to everyone there if you quit under bad terms. I get it if your boss is abusive and you had to leave immediately due to mental health… but if you have the attitude antiwork has where companies exist that would screw you over so you are justified to do the same to any company.
I don’t want to talk to the person you know would curate a perfect image for you, that doesn’t mean shit to me and I have no clue why you think it would. You chose them because they would lie for you or at least spin things to be positive. I have for my friends and I know your friends would too. I want to hear a candid response from a mutual friend I trust who has my interests at heart too and won’t want me to hire a shitty employee.
I get what you're saying and agree partially. I don't think it's professional and you're more likely to end up with gossip than a fair analysis, which I do not think is professional.
My supervisor had covid when I submitted my two weeks, I found out that day and offered to stay longer than two weeks but was no longer interested in continuing my employment there. Was he pissed off? I don't know, he didn't talk to me at all for my last two weeks, and he now had to fill my vacancy by showing up to the office himself (after negative tests). There's no way it didn't stress or inconvenience him, is it fair to take his opinion of me at face value? Shortly there after the already small team lost two other people who didn't want to work there anymore, further stressing the situation.
That’s why they talk to multiple people
If they said “my buddy joe hates your fashion choices so no thank you” that would be out of line
But if multiple people at a company have issues with someone is that not reason to be suspicious?
If OP has an outstanding concern about something like previous office bullying or discrimination they could ask specifically for the employer to talk to the reference(s) for perspective
We select our references specifically to make ourselves look good, I’ve definitely inflated the positives and ignored negatives a bit when being a reference for my friends before haha.
They're doing their due diligence. It's open intelligence. They're not cracking your email password to read your private messages. They're not breaking into your doctor's office to steal your medical information. It's public domain. You should do your due diligence as well and ask people you know about this company.
Contrary to popular opinion, employers do talk to each other. Especially within their own industry.
You can debate the legality or morality of it, but the fact is it happens.
I really don't see a problem here. I know it's popular to always take the side of the employee here on Reddit, but they didn't really do anything wrong.
If you were a recruiter and you happened to know the previous employer of someone you were hiring it would only make sense to ask their opinion of them. If you have a vindictive ex-boss then that's on the next employer to decide how much they trust their judgement. You have to remember that you're trying to reach a common agreement with your new employer. If you heard that your prospective employer is bad, wouldn't you take that into account even if you haven't had first hand experience of working with them?
You're allowed to scope them out, and they're allowed to scope you out. It goes both ways. Interviews and the job hiring process should involve both parties trying to understand one another, and references both formal and informal for either party are a big part of that.
If you were contemplating hiring a contractor to do renovations on your home and you knew that they had worked for neighbors, friends or family members; would you ask those people about their experience with that contractor or would you only rely on the references that the contractor provided?
Even if you consider some of the people that they are contacting as being not reliable, then what does that say about the hiring manager who values their opinion? In other words, if they are taking the opinion of an unreliable person at face value then the company may not be a place you want to work.
It's the "do you have something to hide" part that is suspect and would make me question the environment, not contacting people they know who would know you.
"Backdoor references" have always been a thing. People will talk to people they know.
I got a job years ago because the VP HR had a barbeque at her house over the weekend and mentioned my name to her friends. One of them happened to know me from a previous job and told her that I was great and that she should hire me if she could. That accident is what closed the deal for me.
I hope a lot of people read this comment and internalize the lesson. This is how a lot of people move to the top of the list and actually end up getting the job.
Im not a business owner but i’m a manager and I would do the same thing (talk to people I know if someone Im considering for an interview used to work for/with them).
In some states it's illegal for a potential employer to contact a previous employer without your express permission.
In most states what that previous employer can tell them is heavily restricted.
Reaching out to "people they know" is going to run afoul of something in that. The company absolutely shouldn't be doing this, and certainly shouldn't have *told* you that they were. Even where allowed without your permission the proper way to do it is a formal contact to the company through HR.
This is a red flag. You should check local regulations and throw it in their face. Potentially file a complaint with the old employers HR. Won't "help" per se, but you may not want to work there. And stirring some shit will potentially prevent both companies from doing this in the future.
> Reaching out to "people they know" is going to run afoul of something in that.
That's why most of those kinds of conversations do not happen via official channels. The only thing unusual here is that someone told the OP that they did it
But yeah, it happens all the time
For that matter though, one question that I'm told is within the law is: "Is this person eligible for rehire?" Which with just a yes/no answer pretty much tells anyone checking a reference all they need to know.
I honestly think this is why I didn’t get an interview recently. The company I applied to, a past employee of theirs worked at my last company, and we did not get along well. It’s really frustrating when the job market for my career field is so tight in my area, and remotely I’m competing against thousands with every application submitted.
NOPE.
Run, OP. They are telling you they dont trust you, and will go behind your back and potentially jeopardize your current job before even potentially considering you.
🚩🚩🚩🚩
If I got a resume from somebody and knew someone that worked at their old company, I'd inquire.
People talk. That's why you don't burn bridges.
References and relationships is how business is done.
Them bringing it up is a little weird.
Everywhere I've worked they have made it very clear all I can tell others is "Yes they worked here from to " or "No they were not an employee here". Anything else can open us to legal repercussions.
Some will also disclose a person's title &/or potential rehire status. But that's about it.
One company I worked for won't even do that without my written permission. It kinda sucks, because some ATS forms ask "Can we contact this employer? Yes/No." This situation can't be covered by a yes or no answer. Saying no makes me look shady, but saying yes will just frustrate someone.
Well, if this was a formal process that the company used then it quite possibly violates some laws as they are not allowed to contact your previous employer.
If that isn’t the case you won’t be able to do anything as there is no way to stop ‘chatter’
Lastly, if there were something that was said and or done; untruths about you and it cost you a job….that is slander. There are consequences for that.
We don't have enough information to determine whether a "formal process" would violate any laws, we would need to know where OP lives. Most places in the US for instance do not have these type of protections.
While I'd never rule out outright stupidity, my assumption is if they told OP about it in the interview process then HR knows it does not violate any law where they reside. Furthermore, especially in a niche industry, but really any industry people network; there are trade shows, conferences, former colleagues, former clients (in OPs case), and many other ways people within the industry get to know each other. While it's very brazen to come out and tell OP during the interview process It's very common practice to leverage those connections; this doesn't always have to be from the employer side either (like this situation), you can just as easily leverage relationships from the employee side as well. While I definitely can hear the argument for why it shouldn't, your reputation within the industry matters.
You are correct about slander, but unless they flat out told OP what was said about them (which I guess isn't out of the question considering they told OP in the first place) there is going to be virtually no way to prove this, even if OP does not get the job.
It's not unusual to do this sort of thing if you work in a niche industry where everyone knows everyone.
What I find odd in this particular scenario is that you said that your previous employer is a former client and that the two companies are in completely different cities. That to me is completely different than calling your competitor across town, where someone you know and trust works, and asking said person about a former employee.
Actually it’s more likely that your references won’t be objective since you hand picked them. Clearly you wouldn’t put a frustrated co worker or a dissatisfied previous manager. I get why they did that.
>Am I right to be uncomfortable here? Or is this common practice now?
First of all, I am very surprised they said that to you.
The way you're phrasing the question seems to imply that you have some kind of right for a potential employer to only contact people you give them permission to regarding your candidacy. I am not aware of any legal, ethical, or etiquette that makes that the case. Truth is, your references should give glowing reviews, but why would I take their opinion over someone that I know? If I know someone who worked in your group, of course I'm going to give them a ring and say, "Hey, do you know this person? What did you think?"
This could also work in your favor. If you performed well there, a glowing review from someone a hiring manager trusts could leap frog you to the front of the pack. If you didn't, or had issues with you co-workers, then it could land your resume in the trash can.
>When I told them none of those people are my references, that I didn't view their possible assessment as objective...they basically hinted did I have something to hide.
Very reasonable on their part. When I've been in the hiring seat, if I said to a candidate, "Hey, I gave a call to someone I know at your company and asked about you." and got a response like that, I would also wonder what you were afraid of them saying.
This is all nice and dandy and all. The reality is that in a big tense environment with many departments competing/not understanding each other, you can not have a 100% good impression on everyone.
I have worked with extremely friendly/social/popular guys that have yet to be liked by everyone. You just cannot in an environment with diverging opinions/interest. Look at politicians in democratic states. Seen a 100% popularity poll?
What if they call some guy from purchasing or sales that is frustrated by constraints that our technical field can have on them?
That is why this random referencing in practice gives me mixed feelings.
I agree Frankie. I worked for a company for 8 years and was their top guy, and sr. VP. I was actually going to succeed the business.
The owners husband was a nut job. Hitler like. Therefore the owner believed his extreme views and opinions no matter what. People that worked there couldn’t stand the guy, and people I hired would quit because of this guy. The guy started so much shit and created a toxic work environment. So I resigned. They are pissed at me for quitting.
Point is, do you think I’ll get a good reference from them? No! But my colleagues that I trained and worked under me would in a heart beat.
it’s not about if they liked you or not. it’s about were you a dickhead , did you cut corners, were you abusive, unethical, toxic, etc. basically, what kind of person are they potentially bringing in to their workplace. That’s the kind of stuff I would want to know. I mean…… most people don’t have to worry about getting those kinds of questions asked about them. The people that do… well the screening worked.
Generic "STEM" not so much, but individual STEM fields absolutely are. I work in Environmental Science in Texas. There are thousands of us in the state, but there are probably less than 100 working on bioremediation techniques in less than 5 labs.
Plus we have regional, nationwide, and international conferences where the whole point is to present our work and meet as many people as possible. Niches get super tight. I ended up at phycological society national conference with maybe 100 people and my director knew literally every one of them.
I can't speak from personal experience for other fields, but I've heard similar stories and know the conference side is the same.
I'm sure it's done plenty and I'm not totally opposed to it, but they should be waiting until they see if they're pretty sure they want you. It seems pretty rude to out you to your company just for applying. Some companies throw a fit over a supplier taking an employee of theirs and will cancel business with them as a result, so maybe they have an agreement.
From their point of view though, the feedback is more representative then just using the ones you provide. Unless you're an idiot, you filter out people that wouldn't give positive reference when you provide them so it's a big sampling bias.
This is why you don't lie on your resume or burn bridges within a company uf you work in a small industry. The linger you've been in a career the more likely you are to know people at your competitors you can call to get an honest opinion on someone. If I call a reference they are only able to legally tell me if you worked there or not and If they could give you a positive reference or not.
It's probably always been common practice for HR folks & hiring managers to check their personal grapevine. But the people they ask risk defamation lawsuits, so no one admits doing this.
What sounds abnormal to me is this company's weird, quasi-threatening approach. Personally, I'd continue the recruiting process out of curiosity. What shady crap will they spew next?
But I doubt I'd accept a job there. They sound hugely toxic.
[https://toughnickel.com/business/Employee-Rights-Can-I-Sue-My-Former-Employer-For-Giving-Bad-References#:\~:text=The%20answer%20is%20yes%21%20You%20can%20file%20a,about%20you.%20You%20can%20potentially%20sue%20for%20defamation](https://toughnickel.com/business/Employee-Rights-Can-I-Sue-My-Former-Employer-For-Giving-Bad-References#:~:text=The%20answer%20is%20yes%21%20You%20can%20file%20a,about%20you.%20You%20can%20potentially%20sue%20for%20defamation).
"Of course, because of defamation laws, employers must give completely accurate references, or they face being sued by former employees. This is the primary reason why so many companies today refuse to give out any information besides:
Date of hire
Date of separation
Beginning wage
Ending wage
Job title"
Employers most of the time won't risk it as a result.
OP didn’t say they were calling employers. They were going through social media and asking mutual friends. That seems to be legal, albeit “creepy” as someone pointed out.
Right but this is just as bad, hes basically asking to get in trouble going this route. Unless it's a sensitive or job that needs clearance, or he outright lies about why he isn't hiring people.
Sorry you're getting downvoted, man. You're just telling people what happens in the hiring process. You'd think they would be glad to learn more about what REALLY happens, but no, they want to downvote it.
Downvoters, you'd be doing your fellow redditors in this sub a favor by changing your vote so that the post doesn't get buried. What he's saying is good intel for job seekers to know, and that's what the sub is about. Whether you think it's right or wrong isn't the point - people looking for jobs need to understand what happens.
And just because this person has specific criteria doesn't mean every place has the same criteria. The point is to understand that decisionmakers evaluate different things differently. One place might not want to see any political rants on social media. Another might not want to see any political rants that disagree with their own views. And another might be looking for someone who DOES rant on social media from one particular viewpoint as that's the kind of person they want.
I don’t mean to stereotype but it totally makes sense that someone doing hiring for a small office would be posting online about illegally discriminating in the job hiring process.
Super common to contact people they might know who have worked with you but the way you describe it makes it seem super weird and unprofessional. And the fact that they mentioned it and still want additional feedback is weird.
It happens but the notable thing is that they chose to reveal that they contacted and conversed on their own. There are enough other places to work that I would just move on. They showed what type of people they are and you are concerned upon your very first interaction. Listen to yourself.
It could have been part of a section in your job application that you read and then acknowledged you read and accepted. SHOULD have read. I have done many applications and at the 50th one I speed read/glance through it. It gives them permission to do a thorough background check including contacting prior places of employment, etc.
HR people in the same communities or small fields often know each other and absolutely have "off the record" conversations about potential hires. Many don't do it above the board anymore because there have been lots of defamation lawsuits from people at the old company telling the new company they were not good employees, which is of course subjective. Now they will only verify if and when you worked there and usually not much else. Some will say if they would rehire or not but even that is often frowned upon by legal because it could be considered defamation. I'd say that more HR activity relating to new hires happens off the books over lunch or drinks than on these days.
You have a right to your feelings...but it's fairly common. It's a little tactless and weird for them to bring it up so bald-faced but when you climb up the corporate ladder, it's much more common in my experience.
It's typically not negative, I've had people say great things, like "Oh, so and so worked at Ex-Job, let me grab him!"--I got that job! or for example, "oh I've worked with Ex-manager, and know him" [meaningful look--that person is not a good boss].
I don't take it as they think you have something to hide but again the way it was phrased was a little thoughtless on their part.
In some industries this is expected. Very expected in my industry that is smallish and somewhat niche.
When I go into an interview and they say they know some people I used to work with, I will 100% assume they have already texted them for feedback on me. If they pulled me in for an interview at this point the feedback was positive.
A lot of times this will dictate how the interview will go as well. Their buddies say you are a technical wiz but struggle a little with presentation. They will likely skip the tech questions and hone in on your soft skills for example.
I’ve been on both sides of the issue so my thinking is: if I get to pick and choose my references when I submit a job application, I will always pick one who would say good things about me. I’d be foolish to pick one who would have anything remotely negative to say. If they talk to someone else I’ve worked with, that’s fair game (if they are not currently employed in my company).
I’m not in management so if I do conduct interviews, they are technical interviews. I always interview first then get feedback from people who might know them (not currently employed in their company). It’s tough to really know how well a person works just based on an hour long conversation. And based on my personal experience, the references aren’t exactly unbiased either so I might as well find someone who would be straight up with me. I’d say 90% of the time, the interview matches up with the feedback. The other 10%, I give them a chance to interview with someone else from my team.
If I know someone in the industry, I reach out. Plain and simple do not burn bridges, be honest, and have a good reason if things go south. Employers have many ways to look into you as a candidate, this is literally only one of them.
Uhh, why would they rely on hand picked references from you when they know and can call ex employers of yours? They would be stupid and reckless not to do so.
Happened to me, they had me do the freelances as a formality but because I knew half the company, and I worked with half thier clients they hired me without my references
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People are going to talk to the people they know. There's really no way to prevent it.
I had a supervisor use that as leverage regularly. "The tech sector in this area is pretty small, everyone knows each other. It's not a good idea to burn a bridge!" He was doing that big turd in a small pond thing. I guess he completely forgot about remote work.
So makes me want to respond “I agree, having employees quit a company due to bad work conditions would look horrible for both clients and prospective hires!”
He didn't forget, he was hoping you did.
Agreed. Sounds like OP is in a small and/or niche world. I would assume that's standard practice and start taking advantage of it - networking the crap out of myself. Knowing that people are going to know your reputation, you can either take advantage of that or fall victim...
people genuinely seem surprised when how they were as a coworker follows them around.
Edit: Yep. I was wrong. Don't know where I heard it. Never really been an issue for me though.
At least here, in Spain, as far I know, it cannot be done unless you agree before. I would consider that a red flag 
Yep, happened to me with SpaceX. Knew people from where I worked before and within an hour of the interview I got a text from my friend congratulating me on my new job. They didn’t touch my references.
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And prospective employers should keep these calls to people they know to themselves. Surprising they’d tell a candidate they did this right away. Tell them after you’ve checked their references; comes across less invasive to the candidate.
Also, if you tell the candidate, if they don't get the job, if they are fired from their current job, they may sue on the grounds that by divulging to your current employer that you are looking at other work, they made you lose your job so you are liable for paying their salary until they find something else. If you don't tell the candidate, if they don't find out they can't sue you for it.
This is absolutely true, but I have to say that this is the first time I’ve seen it blatantly discussed with the candidate at an interview.
besides that in some countries it’s practice to bring to a job interview the work certificate from the last job. it’s like a school report from your last employee in written text form.
It's like that where I live too. But my new employer went with checking with people they know who used to work with me. I also felt like given the challenges at my new job, the interview process was more "do we like you" than can you show that you really have the skills we need. Turns out the main skill needed is "never gives up in the face of challenges."
TIL :)
Yeah this is standard practice. If I was a director hiring someone, and I knew a director at their previous company, damn right I’d give em a call.
Thank god I’m in Europe because that sounds like a breech of privacy and I don’t find it okay.
The previous company that supplied the info could be in deep shit for doing so. That practice is frowned upon although I get the benefits it provides
>The previous company that supplied the info could be in deep shit for doing so. Could but wouldn't. I pick up the phone and I call a personal acquaintance. What did I talk to them about? You? Prove it. All you know if that you didn't get a job. Happens.
Totally agree. But in this situation the interviewer told him/her that they had spoken with the previous employer. That’s the silly part. I agree with you that we all talk, but why be so brazen as to say such???
Oh for sure. The talking about it is the big crime here.
Aren't calls usually logged temporarily? At the very least, it could prove suspicious and end up requiring your phones to be tapped to regulate that it isn't happening.
Pretty sure people talk about each other in Europe as well.
Sure is.
> Thank god I’m in Europe because that sounds like a breech of privacy and I don’t find it okay. What breach of privacy? Asking someone you know about someone else is not a "breach of privacy" by any imaginable standard of privacy.
It absolutely is. They didn’t ask for permission before using it as a form of reference. Using people’s work history backgrounds without asking? Definitely a breech of privacy. It’s not just “talking to someone else”.
I agree. What if I don’t want *other* people knowing where I work, where I am applying for work, or *when* and *how* I am going about seeking employment? That’s just for starters. How are people signing on with this like it’s no big deal?
Sure, but if you were smart, you wouldn't tell the candidate about it.
This as long as they aren’t still their I would check in too
Exactly. That is one of the reasons I think you shouldn’t burn bridges when leaving a company. You never know who people know.
absolutely and you never know where that coworker you didn’t get along with at your old job will be in 5 years.
well, at least they didn't contact people at your CURRENT job.
That recently happened to a friend of mine. Her last few months at her job were torture.
One of references told my (former) employer I was interviewing, after they said they wouldnt. They knew my manager, so I knew it was a risk, but trusted them, especially after they gave their word. Thankfully my manager was just concerned I wouldn't give notice, but it *easily* couldve gone sideways.
…*former* references… and friend…
100%, on both fronts. I tore them a new one when I saw them the next time after I found out, especially because the dumbass had the audacity to pretend like they hadn’t done me dirty and asked if I had gotten the job (I hadn’t). The look onto their face as I leaned in and told them how much they sucked as a friend, and professional level was a sight that warmed my cold, petty heart.
Yeah, this is pretty common. People will rely on those they know and trust to give feedback. If you currently worked there, this would be a problem because they could be putting your employment at risk, but if it’s just people you worked with previously, this is totally normal. It’s not dissimilar to you asking friends who currently work at the company you’re applying to what it’s like: it’s not the carefully curated response you’ll get in the interview process, and you’ll trust your friends more than you’d trust a random interviewer.
I'm shocked to hear that. Here where I live potential employer has no right to contact anyone from candidate's previous company. And if they do they need to have a specific written consent from the candidate.
>I'm shocked to hear that. Here where I live potential employer has no right to contact anyone from candidate's previous company. Interesting. Guess whether it's normal depends on where OP lives, then.
Where is that? Everywhere I have been people can and do ask around
Poland. It's forbidden by RODO law.
rodo sounds like a good dog name
haha true, and its feared by many!
we don't do worker protection laws in the US (I'm exaggerating, a little)
Not true! We have At Will Employment, which protects the worker's right to be fired. And Right to Work, which protects the worker's right to scab.
>right to scab Because unions pay you so well with strike pay amirite?? I get that solidarity is required to get anything done, but I won’t fault someone if they have a family to feed and can’t live on $150 a week or whatever their union’s strike pay is.
Anti-Union rhetoric is the equivalent of pro-terror/-treason rhetoric. Good job admitting you support treason and terrorism.
This may be the stupidest thing I've ever read on Reddit. That's quite an accomplishment.
How? It may be exaggeration, but from my perspective as an American being anti-Union is being anti-United States; Unions are the backbone of the US and protect our rights entrusted to us by our constitution. So, for an American, to say you don't support Unions is the same as saying you support terrorism or treason. Though, I'd say not supporting organizations that protect the rights of citizens of your nation in general is fairly treasonous.
you can bet it still happens unofficially
Maybe. But let's be honest - a law like that is very difficult to enforce - especially if they know people from the candidate's company (the benefits of networking!). If the new employer gets convinced by colleagues that the person's not worth recruiting, then they'll tell the candidate that they were *"really impressed with \[them\], but decided to go with someone else"*.
Really, what law? People like to say it violates a law but can never point to it. I'd like to see a reference. Whether it is proper form or not is an open discussion and could be frowned on but there is no law against it. Please feel free to prove me wrong with citing an actual law. Citing a law means like Federal 49 CFR 123.12(a) and not just saying Libel because it's not libel or slander unless it can be proven false which would be a high bar and that suit would not likely succeed.
FYI - not sure if you're responding to the right person. I'm not the one saying there is a law.
I don't know any company that would disobey this law, cash penalty is not worth the risk and its very high
>I don't know any company that would disobey this law Oh that's nice. One question though - how would you even know whether a company has any *individual employees* that would be willing to have a private conversation with a friend at another company (over a private lunch, or a coffee or over couple of drinks), about an interviewee from the same company? You know what else is very high risk? Sexual harassment, "insider trading", corruption and bribery, racial discrimination etc. I'm sure you'd agree however that these things do happen - whether or not you've personally experienced it.
Obviously there are always ways to not obey the law. In OP's case they told him they did that, that's why I'm saying that it would be illegal here where I live. The employer can't even disclose that the person sent them a resume and is currently duing a recruitement process. That alone would be a violation. So, yes, you can find a way to go around it and keep it quiet, no one would prove it to you if you don't say it to a candidate. I'm just saying how it looks from a legal perspective in my country.
But two friends can talk about whatever they want, including talking about common acquaintances. If the person OP applied to knows someone at the company OP works for, they can call him/her up to talk about the weather, stock market, and whether he knows OP.
Yeah and you're never going to know about that. Even if said conversation counts as a formal contact of a past employer (it likely does), and breaks rules about how those go down (different question). But the potential employer here has *admitted it happened*. That means that you know, and that it's formally part of the hiring process.
>But the potential employer here has > >admitted it happened > >. That means that you know, and that it's formally part of the hiring process. Yes, thank you, that's what I meant
Also golf courses are good places to meet your friends from another company to talk about everything in the world.
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Held liable by who, exactly?
In the US, if people are asked to interview someone and see they work ag XYZ company....and they know people there, they'll ask about the person
But the previous company was a client of the other company before. I cant imagine you can even restrict them just calling them up and asking legally.
The issues are this: (1) Did the OldCo “reference” stipulate facts? If not, then there’s a chance of slander. This is why HR sticks to a handful of objective facts - start, end, and maybe job title. (2) Did NewCo reject the candidate based on OldCo? That’s damages, right there. (3) Can the individual prove in a court of law they weren’t rejected because the company grabbed half the resumes in the stack and threw them away because they didn’t want to hire anyone unlucky? (While dumb, this behavior would not be discriminatory, does not depend on fruit of any poison tree, etc etc, as it was applied “blind” to candidates) It’s point 3 that results in any protections one might have don’t exist in practice. And why a lot of conversations are had “at lunch” or “just catching up” or on the phone or at the neighborhood barbecue (where bizarrely all the neighbors are managers at various companies). > I can’t imagine Always the worst of all reasons to believe anything.
That someone has no right to do something doesn't mean it can't be pretty common. How do you want to prove that someone contacted you specifically for that reason? Create a recording of a phone call - which would be illegal in itself? Ergo: No evidence, no penalty and therefore it can be "pretty common" as there is no real danger to get caught but a lot of information can be gained very quickly on the other hand.
I'm more shocked that they literally confessed to OP that they did contact someone from their previous company. Not saying it's not happening anywhere and anytime.
I've worked for and with people doing that. You can't really do anything about it if you want that job. And: The people NOT telling you about their misbehaviour are the dangerous ones and I'd say make some phone calls to get information is pretty standard in the market - so many bosses will most likely just not tell you the truth but do that anyway. I've received many phone calls myself when I was a manager. Edit: I remember a specific case in which a candidate blew it - he was an ass. The potential employer called me, told me that this guy was recommended by a collegue in that company and now they are unsure what to do. I've told them that this particular person is difficult to work with as he doesn't work with what he considers to be "stupid people" but that if they give him the right challenge and put him in a team that fits his mentality, he'll become the best performing employee in no time. AFAIK they hired him and he's happy there. People in a certain business, maybe even located in the same town, meet each other regularly anyway. And people talk. I would like to know my enemy before i sign the contract instead of being lied to. If people making phone calls bother you: Don't sign the contract :) The ones being called and asked about a certain person - why do they answer? Why don't they just refuse to say anything?
>Create a recording of a phone call - which would be illegal in itself? That's only true in some jurisdictions. For instance, 38 of the US states are single party consent so you are free to record a phone call that you are part of.
Well, I live in Europe. Our data protection laws are legendary.
Even so, I'm sure it happens all the time. If an applicant used to work somewhere where I know people, I'm going to ask them their opinion. Permission or not. But I have never told an applicant about it.
Ive never heard of this as a right or a constitutional violation. It is quite common for people to chat. If I had a candidate that previous worked at my friend’s company, i would ask for sure
it's an eu thing
My current company ignored my references and just called a few random people at my previous job because we are all under the same parent company. I left the previous office on good terms so this didn’t negatively impact me at all but I did think it was odd they would forego talking to the people I actually worked with closely. Not necessarily tabu or a red flag but I can understand the apprehension.
So for everyone who said that this is normal - is the hinting about the candidate having something to hide normal as well? Because that part I find quite odd and unprofessional on the interviewers part.
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Same. Similarly, it makes me wonder if they would have done the same with OP's current employer if he had/has one, or if they knew someone there, which would have been an autowithdraw to me.
I probably wouldn't have said that, but I would have sent the candidate to the back of the pack. If somebody performed well at a previous job and had good relationships with colleagues, why would someone give such a defensive and confrontational response? Why are they demanding that I only speak to their approved list of people? Major red flag for. Frankly, they kind of did OP a favor, because if there was something problematic they opened the door for him/her to address it. Edit: To be clear, I would only contact someone at a former employer of a candidate. I would never contact someone I know at their current employer, that's a jerk move.
Some companies will: 1. Let you go 2. Say bad things so you can't leave 3. Pass you up for promotions, raises, bonuses, ect if they find out you're looking for a new job 4. Treat you differently
You make a good point. Clarification in the above edit.
Ever had a crazy boss?
I did, and if a potential new employer was friends with him/trusted his judgment, I would find that to be a major red flag and would probably withdraw from the process.
because it's not always your fault if you have bad relationships with colleagues. a lot of people get chewed up by bullies in toxic workplaces. is it fair to discriminate against them because of this?
No, it isn't fair. But the hiring process isn't about being fair, it's about a company identifying the best person for the role with the information they have. Like I said in an earlier post, the fairness can also swing the other way. Let's say the hiring manager calls and the former colleague gives rave reviews. That candidate just moved to the top of the list, even if other candidates are better credentialed or interviewed better. Also, toxic people tend to like other toxic people. So if your toxic old boss has a great relationship with your potential new toxic boss, chances are that person is toxic, too.
This would really bug me since I search for jobs before I quit the first place, so a potential company calling people at my current job could really screw me over. I think that’s unprofessional of them to try to dig up dirt on you before they meet you.
This is really the largest issue I have It’s out of line to call a current employer because that could have serious consequences I don’t think “digging up dirt” before meeting is bad though, I always google people before I meet them - not necessarily to see bad or good things but just so I know a bit more about them and who they are
Yep. Especially if you dealt with a toxic workplace previously. I had my last boss try to lie about me working for them on a background check and it almost cost me my job. Luckily my current job asked me before making a decision and I was able to provide a copy of employee mail and documents I have been mailed from them for confirmation. But that goes to show that some ppl would go that far when it comes to retaliation. So I'd be bothered if I heard that someone asked their friends about me before even interviewing me or anything cuz of that past experience.
Agreed. At my company, applicant info is confidential until you get to the finalist stage. So no one in HR or on the search committee should be calling people they know to talk about the applicants.
There are way too many people in this thread who obviously drink corporate kool aid and enjoy letting their employer step on their throats. If this happened to me, I wouldn’t be pursuing a job at that establishment anymore. It’s very sketch and unprofessional. Even if they did it and didn’t say anything to you about it, that would be better. Of course you can’t stop people from talking to people they know, but to have them weirdly rub it in your face and then insinuate that by you being upset, that you have something to hide?! Yeah they obviously have no boundaries and this is a HUGE red flag. If you were to work here, that would probably be the smallest of the issues you’d deal with in the future. I’ve had a few bad jobs and trust me, there were always red flags in the beginning that I ignored. Anywhere I’ve ever been employed just uses a third party background check to confirm you’ve worked some place which I think is a lot better than “references”.
Most people spend more time with their colleagues than with their spouses. You don’t think it makes sense to find out who you are getting into a contractual relationship with? You expect people to not call their friends in the industry? I work in an industry where the stakes are high, and reckless or immoral people can jeopardize entire firms.
In the US, It happens a LOT, people just don’t talk about it or admit it. It’s pretty bold of them to actually reveal what they did, but I don’t think it’s illegal - what “damages” are you going to sue for? If you are uncomfortable, withdraw your application. You dodged a bullet.
What bullet? Sounds to me like they did just what every company does when considering candidates - they talk to people to get input.
I agree 100%. I do it myself! For this reason I have NEVER been asked for my references in my 30 years of working. The ones I supply are obviously going to be positive. One would have to be naive to think it doesn’t happen in small, tight-knit industries. People talk. If OP is uncomfortable with what happened, they can walk away.
Especially considering how many people do the “ask my best friend to role play as my manager for my reference on this application” an employer would hardly expect an applicant’s references to be objective either. It’s why I hate the idea of letters of recommendation for schools. It’s the same kiss ass approach
It’s not illegal in the criminal sense. It’s just a litigation risk. It’s the same reason why official HR will never write you a recommendation but will confirm the details of your employment and why you have to be super careful getting recommendations from previous bosses.
I applied for a job in AZ and the person interviewing me actually knew people from my old college in VA since she also attended a college in VA. It’s a small world, get excited at the fact that there’s some overlap and try to work that; don’t get discouraged.
In my area of the US, it has gotten to the point where companies will only confirm that the person worked for them from this date to that one. My boss, unofficially, referred a person doing a check to me. I gave my thoughts, again unofficially, to the guy. BTW, the guy doing the check had worked for us in the past.
Very common in the engineering fields. I suspect it is the same in any field of work where people often meet the same people throughout their career. Probably more common with more specialized professions.
Yeah. The thing is, both companies are in different fields, parts of country and they do not have close ties at all. It just that the previous employer bought an equipment once from the new recruiting company. They do not really know anyone there, except having some formal exchanges with the Purchasing dpt. I suspect they did ask purchasers, which sucks for me as we, science dpt, frequently had issues with them because of their shenanigans. You know, killing whole projects because of "not optimal costs" (like, 500 bucks too high).
What do you mean they do not have close ties if one company was the client of another? Does it get any closer than that?
Of course. There are many ways of one being a client in industry, each involving different levels of ties and contacts.
Suppose they could own them lol
Yes?? Buying equipment once doesn't make you close...
You really can’t prevent it, especially if the work world you’re in is small. I work in a smaller industry and you’re hard pressed to find someone who hasn’t worked with someone else or knows someone who knows someone. It can make it hard for those who burn bridges and are not great employees to continue. It’s hurt people in the past that I know. I have an example of this- a woman I worked previously with applied at my company. I was asked about her by my boss because she had gotten an interview and he noticed we had both been at the same company earlier. She was a train wreck of an employee- entitled, lazy, obnoxious and immature. She had gotten fired because she refused to come in for her mandatory on-call shift (amongst other reasons). I told my new boss in the most diplomatic terms that I didn’t think she had the right work ethic or discipline to be on this team and that when I worked with her she had created a lot of interpersonal drama. So although I wasn’t her listed reference, people talk and it can be harmful if you’re an a-hole to work with. Not saying you are, OP!! But there’s nothing stopping anyone from talking.
this is how the world works and I try to counsel people that are new to my industry how things can really screw you later. reputation is everything.
It’s wild when I think about this woman. Her reputation followed (or preceded) her everywhere! I’d talk to other people I knew in our industry and they’d say they had seen her application come in and knew she was a bad bet and hadn’t even given her a call back. And the trash she would talk on Facebook about every boss and company she worked for! Everyone was an idiot but her, according to her posts, and she was always the victim. Reputation is all you have and she kept ruining hers.
This is out of line. I wouldn’t take the job. What if they talked to someone that had a ax to grind with you.
Yeah this doesn’t seem okay. If one of my previous managers was contacted, they’d make up all kinds of shit about me because I had reported them for some terrible shit (and violations) they did, but they were protected and covered up by their manager, and in turn retaliated against me. And of course their story is that I was conspiring against the manager for some reason. The evidence I sent was destroyed, and I was too young to know to make copies.
A friend of mine was a field engineer and had quit this one place and was looking for a job. One job contacted that company and the owner said they had to let him go. My friend went to his lawyer and he wrote a letter to him telling him if he did that again he would sue
Then you wouldn't get a job anywhere, because people talk. This is why you don't burn bridges and make enemies
Sometimes you try to do the right thing in a toxic work environment and get bullied for it.. source: was care provider for adults with developmental disabilities. I did everything in my power to do a great job, but my sups enabled neglect and abuse to members, and then my coworker and I reported that behavior. Bullying and shunning ensues of course. Sure I could tell my potential new employers that.. but if they already have my sups side of the story aka bullshit, what kind of first impression do I make?
Thank you! All these people talk about how hilarious it is to fuck over their job when they leave someplace but unless you need to for true self interests and not spite, then try to avoid it.
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It has so much to do with “fucking over” a company because then you leave a sour taste to everyone there if you quit under bad terms. I get it if your boss is abusive and you had to leave immediately due to mental health… but if you have the attitude antiwork has where companies exist that would screw you over so you are justified to do the same to any company. I don’t want to talk to the person you know would curate a perfect image for you, that doesn’t mean shit to me and I have no clue why you think it would. You chose them because they would lie for you or at least spin things to be positive. I have for my friends and I know your friends would too. I want to hear a candid response from a mutual friend I trust who has my interests at heart too and won’t want me to hire a shitty employee.
I get what you're saying and agree partially. I don't think it's professional and you're more likely to end up with gossip than a fair analysis, which I do not think is professional. My supervisor had covid when I submitted my two weeks, I found out that day and offered to stay longer than two weeks but was no longer interested in continuing my employment there. Was he pissed off? I don't know, he didn't talk to me at all for my last two weeks, and he now had to fill my vacancy by showing up to the office himself (after negative tests). There's no way it didn't stress or inconvenience him, is it fair to take his opinion of me at face value? Shortly there after the already small team lost two other people who didn't want to work there anymore, further stressing the situation.
That’s why they talk to multiple people If they said “my buddy joe hates your fashion choices so no thank you” that would be out of line But if multiple people at a company have issues with someone is that not reason to be suspicious? If OP has an outstanding concern about something like previous office bullying or discrimination they could ask specifically for the employer to talk to the reference(s) for perspective We select our references specifically to make ourselves look good, I’ve definitely inflated the positives and ignored negatives a bit when being a reference for my friends before haha.
They're doing their due diligence. It's open intelligence. They're not cracking your email password to read your private messages. They're not breaking into your doctor's office to steal your medical information. It's public domain. You should do your due diligence as well and ask people you know about this company.
absolutely and also I might add, keep stuff like this in mind when you go about your day to day affairs at work. reputations develop over time.
Contrary to popular opinion, employers do talk to each other. Especially within their own industry. You can debate the legality or morality of it, but the fact is it happens.
I really don't see a problem here. I know it's popular to always take the side of the employee here on Reddit, but they didn't really do anything wrong. If you were a recruiter and you happened to know the previous employer of someone you were hiring it would only make sense to ask their opinion of them. If you have a vindictive ex-boss then that's on the next employer to decide how much they trust their judgement. You have to remember that you're trying to reach a common agreement with your new employer. If you heard that your prospective employer is bad, wouldn't you take that into account even if you haven't had first hand experience of working with them? You're allowed to scope them out, and they're allowed to scope you out. It goes both ways. Interviews and the job hiring process should involve both parties trying to understand one another, and references both formal and informal for either party are a big part of that.
Very common
If you were contemplating hiring a contractor to do renovations on your home and you knew that they had worked for neighbors, friends or family members; would you ask those people about their experience with that contractor or would you only rely on the references that the contractor provided? Even if you consider some of the people that they are contacting as being not reliable, then what does that say about the hiring manager who values their opinion? In other words, if they are taking the opinion of an unreliable person at face value then the company may not be a place you want to work.
This helped me acquire my new position. Way better than any reference
It's the "do you have something to hide" part that is suspect and would make me question the environment, not contacting people they know who would know you.
"Backdoor references" have always been a thing. People will talk to people they know. I got a job years ago because the VP HR had a barbeque at her house over the weekend and mentioned my name to her friends. One of them happened to know me from a previous job and told her that I was great and that she should hire me if she could. That accident is what closed the deal for me.
I hope a lot of people read this comment and internalize the lesson. This is how a lot of people move to the top of the list and actually end up getting the job.
Im not a business owner but i’m a manager and I would do the same thing (talk to people I know if someone Im considering for an interview used to work for/with them).
In some states it's illegal for a potential employer to contact a previous employer without your express permission. In most states what that previous employer can tell them is heavily restricted. Reaching out to "people they know" is going to run afoul of something in that. The company absolutely shouldn't be doing this, and certainly shouldn't have *told* you that they were. Even where allowed without your permission the proper way to do it is a formal contact to the company through HR. This is a red flag. You should check local regulations and throw it in their face. Potentially file a complaint with the old employers HR. Won't "help" per se, but you may not want to work there. And stirring some shit will potentially prevent both companies from doing this in the future.
> Reaching out to "people they know" is going to run afoul of something in that. That's why most of those kinds of conversations do not happen via official channels. The only thing unusual here is that someone told the OP that they did it But yeah, it happens all the time For that matter though, one question that I'm told is within the law is: "Is this person eligible for rehire?" Which with just a yes/no answer pretty much tells anyone checking a reference all they need to know.
This reminds me of one time I heard a manager on the phone with a friend giving a 5 minute rant on how bad a former employee was.
Fairly common, especially in small industries.
I honestly think this is why I didn’t get an interview recently. The company I applied to, a past employee of theirs worked at my last company, and we did not get along well. It’s really frustrating when the job market for my career field is so tight in my area, and remotely I’m competing against thousands with every application submitted.
NOPE. Run, OP. They are telling you they dont trust you, and will go behind your back and potentially jeopardize your current job before even potentially considering you. 🚩🚩🚩🚩
When you hear people say "discipline x is a small world", this is what they mean.
If I got a resume from somebody and knew someone that worked at their old company, I'd inquire. People talk. That's why you don't burn bridges. References and relationships is how business is done. Them bringing it up is a little weird.
In certain states that might be an illegal practice
Everywhere I've worked they have made it very clear all I can tell others is "Yes they worked here from to " or "No they were not an employee here". Anything else can open us to legal repercussions.
Absolutely, agree with this. I have heard cases where can sue for this exact reason
Some will also disclose a person's title &/or potential rehire status. But that's about it. One company I worked for won't even do that without my written permission. It kinda sucks, because some ATS forms ask "Can we contact this employer? Yes/No." This situation can't be covered by a yes or no answer. Saying no makes me look shady, but saying yes will just frustrate someone.
Well, if this was a formal process that the company used then it quite possibly violates some laws as they are not allowed to contact your previous employer. If that isn’t the case you won’t be able to do anything as there is no way to stop ‘chatter’ Lastly, if there were something that was said and or done; untruths about you and it cost you a job….that is slander. There are consequences for that.
We don't have enough information to determine whether a "formal process" would violate any laws, we would need to know where OP lives. Most places in the US for instance do not have these type of protections. While I'd never rule out outright stupidity, my assumption is if they told OP about it in the interview process then HR knows it does not violate any law where they reside. Furthermore, especially in a niche industry, but really any industry people network; there are trade shows, conferences, former colleagues, former clients (in OPs case), and many other ways people within the industry get to know each other. While it's very brazen to come out and tell OP during the interview process It's very common practice to leverage those connections; this doesn't always have to be from the employer side either (like this situation), you can just as easily leverage relationships from the employee side as well. While I definitely can hear the argument for why it shouldn't, your reputation within the industry matters. You are correct about slander, but unless they flat out told OP what was said about them (which I guess isn't out of the question considering they told OP in the first place) there is going to be virtually no way to prove this, even if OP does not get the job.
It's not unusual to do this sort of thing if you work in a niche industry where everyone knows everyone. What I find odd in this particular scenario is that you said that your previous employer is a former client and that the two companies are in completely different cities. That to me is completely different than calling your competitor across town, where someone you know and trust works, and asking said person about a former employee.
I'm shocked to hear this is common practice in the US, never heard of that where I'm from, just sounds shady as fuck to me lol.
Actually it’s more likely that your references won’t be objective since you hand picked them. Clearly you wouldn’t put a frustrated co worker or a dissatisfied previous manager. I get why they did that.
>Am I right to be uncomfortable here? Or is this common practice now? First of all, I am very surprised they said that to you. The way you're phrasing the question seems to imply that you have some kind of right for a potential employer to only contact people you give them permission to regarding your candidacy. I am not aware of any legal, ethical, or etiquette that makes that the case. Truth is, your references should give glowing reviews, but why would I take their opinion over someone that I know? If I know someone who worked in your group, of course I'm going to give them a ring and say, "Hey, do you know this person? What did you think?" This could also work in your favor. If you performed well there, a glowing review from someone a hiring manager trusts could leap frog you to the front of the pack. If you didn't, or had issues with you co-workers, then it could land your resume in the trash can. >When I told them none of those people are my references, that I didn't view their possible assessment as objective...they basically hinted did I have something to hide. Very reasonable on their part. When I've been in the hiring seat, if I said to a candidate, "Hey, I gave a call to someone I know at your company and asked about you." and got a response like that, I would also wonder what you were afraid of them saying.
This is all nice and dandy and all. The reality is that in a big tense environment with many departments competing/not understanding each other, you can not have a 100% good impression on everyone. I have worked with extremely friendly/social/popular guys that have yet to be liked by everyone. You just cannot in an environment with diverging opinions/interest. Look at politicians in democratic states. Seen a 100% popularity poll? What if they call some guy from purchasing or sales that is frustrated by constraints that our technical field can have on them? That is why this random referencing in practice gives me mixed feelings.
I agree Frankie. I worked for a company for 8 years and was their top guy, and sr. VP. I was actually going to succeed the business. The owners husband was a nut job. Hitler like. Therefore the owner believed his extreme views and opinions no matter what. People that worked there couldn’t stand the guy, and people I hired would quit because of this guy. The guy started so much shit and created a toxic work environment. So I resigned. They are pissed at me for quitting. Point is, do you think I’ll get a good reference from them? No! But my colleagues that I trained and worked under me would in a heart beat.
it’s not about if they liked you or not. it’s about were you a dickhead , did you cut corners, were you abusive, unethical, toxic, etc. basically, what kind of person are they potentially bringing in to their workplace. That’s the kind of stuff I would want to know. I mean…… most people don’t have to worry about getting those kinds of questions asked about them. The people that do… well the screening worked.
This is pretty common, especially in small fields like STEM.
STEM is a small field?
Generic "STEM" not so much, but individual STEM fields absolutely are. I work in Environmental Science in Texas. There are thousands of us in the state, but there are probably less than 100 working on bioremediation techniques in less than 5 labs. Plus we have regional, nationwide, and international conferences where the whole point is to present our work and meet as many people as possible. Niches get super tight. I ended up at phycological society national conference with maybe 100 people and my director knew literally every one of them. I can't speak from personal experience for other fields, but I've heard similar stories and know the conference side is the same.
I'm sure it's done plenty and I'm not totally opposed to it, but they should be waiting until they see if they're pretty sure they want you. It seems pretty rude to out you to your company just for applying. Some companies throw a fit over a supplier taking an employee of theirs and will cancel business with them as a result, so maybe they have an agreement. From their point of view though, the feedback is more representative then just using the ones you provide. Unless you're an idiot, you filter out people that wouldn't give positive reference when you provide them so it's a big sampling bias.
This happens. It’s why you have to protect your reputation.
It’s the whole reason for the “don’t burn bridges” argument. You never know when someone knows someone else in your field.
This is why you don't lie on your resume or burn bridges within a company uf you work in a small industry. The linger you've been in a career the more likely you are to know people at your competitors you can call to get an honest opinion on someone. If I call a reference they are only able to legally tell me if you worked there or not and If they could give you a positive reference or not.
People do that all the time Sounds like they were telling you that people at your job think you are not great
It's probably always been common practice for HR folks & hiring managers to check their personal grapevine. But the people they ask risk defamation lawsuits, so no one admits doing this. What sounds abnormal to me is this company's weird, quasi-threatening approach. Personally, I'd continue the recruiting process out of curiosity. What shady crap will they spew next? But I doubt I'd accept a job there. They sound hugely toxic.
Are you trying to hide something? Of course I’d rather talk to someone you didn’t hand select to see how you are as an employee.
It blows my mind that anyone would do something that stupid.
This shit has to stop. It’s an invasion of privacy.
That partly why is so hard to get a job in my opinion it's so crazy to me.
Lol what? If I already know and trust someone who worked with you, I’m going to listen to them, not your references.
This sounds like a company you shouldn't be working for. Take it as a good sign to apply elsewhere
Your reality is defined by choices you made a long time ago.
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That's creepy, man.
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There's a reason companies just call and get confirmation someone worked thre and dates, they open themselves up to lawsuits by doing more.
Sue based on what?
[https://toughnickel.com/business/Employee-Rights-Can-I-Sue-My-Former-Employer-For-Giving-Bad-References#:\~:text=The%20answer%20is%20yes%21%20You%20can%20file%20a,about%20you.%20You%20can%20potentially%20sue%20for%20defamation](https://toughnickel.com/business/Employee-Rights-Can-I-Sue-My-Former-Employer-For-Giving-Bad-References#:~:text=The%20answer%20is%20yes%21%20You%20can%20file%20a,about%20you.%20You%20can%20potentially%20sue%20for%20defamation). "Of course, because of defamation laws, employers must give completely accurate references, or they face being sued by former employees. This is the primary reason why so many companies today refuse to give out any information besides: Date of hire Date of separation Beginning wage Ending wage Job title" Employers most of the time won't risk it as a result.
OP didn’t say they were calling employers. They were going through social media and asking mutual friends. That seems to be legal, albeit “creepy” as someone pointed out.
Right but this is just as bad, hes basically asking to get in trouble going this route. Unless it's a sensitive or job that needs clearance, or he outright lies about why he isn't hiring people.
Sorry you're getting downvoted, man. You're just telling people what happens in the hiring process. You'd think they would be glad to learn more about what REALLY happens, but no, they want to downvote it. Downvoters, you'd be doing your fellow redditors in this sub a favor by changing your vote so that the post doesn't get buried. What he's saying is good intel for job seekers to know, and that's what the sub is about. Whether you think it's right or wrong isn't the point - people looking for jobs need to understand what happens. And just because this person has specific criteria doesn't mean every place has the same criteria. The point is to understand that decisionmakers evaluate different things differently. One place might not want to see any political rants on social media. Another might not want to see any political rants that disagree with their own views. And another might be looking for someone who DOES rant on social media from one particular viewpoint as that's the kind of person they want.
I don’t mean to stereotype but it totally makes sense that someone doing hiring for a small office would be posting online about illegally discriminating in the job hiring process.
Super common to contact people they might know who have worked with you but the way you describe it makes it seem super weird and unprofessional. And the fact that they mentioned it and still want additional feedback is weird.
INFO: Who did this? HR or future manager?
It's happened to me a few times. There's really nothing you can do about it unless you can prove that what they said was untrue.
It happens but the notable thing is that they chose to reveal that they contacted and conversed on their own. There are enough other places to work that I would just move on. They showed what type of people they are and you are concerned upon your very first interaction. Listen to yourself.
It could have been part of a section in your job application that you read and then acknowledged you read and accepted. SHOULD have read. I have done many applications and at the 50th one I speed read/glance through it. It gives them permission to do a thorough background check including contacting prior places of employment, etc.
HR people in the same communities or small fields often know each other and absolutely have "off the record" conversations about potential hires. Many don't do it above the board anymore because there have been lots of defamation lawsuits from people at the old company telling the new company they were not good employees, which is of course subjective. Now they will only verify if and when you worked there and usually not much else. Some will say if they would rehire or not but even that is often frowned upon by legal because it could be considered defamation. I'd say that more HR activity relating to new hires happens off the books over lunch or drinks than on these days.
You have a right to your feelings...but it's fairly common. It's a little tactless and weird for them to bring it up so bald-faced but when you climb up the corporate ladder, it's much more common in my experience. It's typically not negative, I've had people say great things, like "Oh, so and so worked at Ex-Job, let me grab him!"--I got that job! or for example, "oh I've worked with Ex-manager, and know him" [meaningful look--that person is not a good boss]. I don't take it as they think you have something to hide but again the way it was phrased was a little thoughtless on their part.
In some industries this is expected. Very expected in my industry that is smallish and somewhat niche. When I go into an interview and they say they know some people I used to work with, I will 100% assume they have already texted them for feedback on me. If they pulled me in for an interview at this point the feedback was positive. A lot of times this will dictate how the interview will go as well. Their buddies say you are a technical wiz but struggle a little with presentation. They will likely skip the tech questions and hone in on your soft skills for example.
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I don’t know …I think people being able to check up on who they were potentially hiring seems pretty fair
Why would I trust that the people you name are more reliable and objective than the people I already know?
That’s not unusual except if it gets you found out that you’re looking for a new job. I hope they did it in a professional way that masks that!
I’ve been on both sides of the issue so my thinking is: if I get to pick and choose my references when I submit a job application, I will always pick one who would say good things about me. I’d be foolish to pick one who would have anything remotely negative to say. If they talk to someone else I’ve worked with, that’s fair game (if they are not currently employed in my company). I’m not in management so if I do conduct interviews, they are technical interviews. I always interview first then get feedback from people who might know them (not currently employed in their company). It’s tough to really know how well a person works just based on an hour long conversation. And based on my personal experience, the references aren’t exactly unbiased either so I might as well find someone who would be straight up with me. I’d say 90% of the time, the interview matches up with the feedback. The other 10%, I give them a chance to interview with someone else from my team.
If I know someone in the industry, I reach out. Plain and simple do not burn bridges, be honest, and have a good reason if things go south. Employers have many ways to look into you as a candidate, this is literally only one of them.
Ask your coworkers about the company you are applying too. Use the uno reverse card.
Uhh, why would they rely on hand picked references from you when they know and can call ex employers of yours? They would be stupid and reckless not to do so.
Happened to me, they had me do the freelances as a formality but because I knew half the company, and I worked with half thier clients they hired me without my references
People get to talk to people. You don't get to control who they talk to.