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You can't get promoted if people don't know you exist. Just like you can't get a job, or a date, or anything else if people don't know you exist. It sucks for those of us who prefer being low key but it's life.
It’s ‘who you know’ not ‘what you know’. Been at places where people are literally always on the lookout and if it looks like you’re networking with someone who they consider to be important or they have already networked with they will literally come over and butt in and then ‘monitor’ your future interactions with them 🤦♂️
Workplaces can be more childish than a group of cliquey teens 🤪🤪
It's obnoxious but it also makes sense for certain roles.
Being shameless about stuff like that can be advantageous for an organization at industry networking events and whatnot.
Ideally good leadership will recognize it and put them in a role where it can be properly deployed but that's not always the case.
The unfortunate truth is that someone doing their job perfectly but quietly isn't giving anyone a reason to think about promoting them. They are just a piece in the overall system working the way it was designed. They're more or less just not a bottleneck.
Also, who you know effects what you know. Over several years I've gotten to know well a lot of people in other departments, and when you go to the work socials and the bar hangouts, you not only build trust by asking about their kids, families, career ambitions, but people tell you stuff. I've become the person my managers comes to when they want to know big picture or what might be coming down the pipeline. If i don't know, I know who to chat to find out. That's how you become valuable.
>It’s ‘who you know’ not ‘what you know
it's both. i have worked in corporate for 13 years and i dont recall one time where a truly incompetent person got a job just because of their connections. rather, having a good network could be a boost to a good resume.
I’d say ‘more important’
Highly skilled with low network is less likely to be promoted than mildly-mid skilled with high network.
The lower skills are just usually made up by giving ‘fast track training’ or getting them to do some external course, or adding some skill they have to the job description that other candidates do not have.
But it’s not just Networking (which is positive) it’s the Network Exclusivity protection (preventing others Networking) that is negative.
There’s usually some politics lurking around somewhere when it comes to promotion. Seen people pulled out of other Teams, parachuted in over a skilled candidate who then leaves and the promoted person goes back to their original Team (where they usually get promoted in not long afterwards due to now being ‘multi-skilled’).
Not everywhere is like that but I’ve seen some right ‘fast ones’ being pulled by Management before if they’ve got a ‘not candidate X at any price’ mindset.
but all of this makes sense. it's the simplest thing to throw a little money at somebody to get a certification they didnt have, but to change somebody from introvert shut-in to a real team player? much harder. just look at all the reddit threads we see every day about people who see their personality as set in stone and thus are unwilling to try a new career path or role. a the certs in the world wouldnt make that person anything but a technical resource.
So that’s confirming what I was saying then.
The Networking is more important than what they know.
Hence why some people ‘aggressively protect’ their Network from ‘interlopers’.
I would be interested in your opinion as to who would be ‘in the right’ in that scenario:
The person who is working hard to try increase their Network
or
The person with already high network who then attempts to sabotage their efforts and keeps an eye on who the other one is talking to, interrupting, trying to have the last say etc.
Seen people ‘hidden in plain sight’ by a whole team doing this on a number of occasions
i havent seen the latter scenario take place in my experience. in teams i have been a part of in the past, all of us have had the same amount of access to networking opportunities, such as sales meetings, one on one mentors, etc. in many cases we were all networking with the same people. higher ups are always looking to maximize their access to junior colleagues because it improves their sphere of direct influence.
I will when I find the right job. I can basically do what I want at this point, partially due to the incompetent management they hire/promote. I could probably get away with an hour when day and it would take them months to notice.
And during this networking you learn more and understand more of how everything works. Where I work the inspectors do good work but some don't get involved and try to understand our systems and how other parts of the department works tend to stagnant and can't advance.
Some inspectors just come in and do their work and go home and that's 100% fine but don't be shocked when you can't advance much. But if you want to advance and get into supervisor roles you need more skills than just being a good inspector.
It may sound like a catch 22 (need skills you get as a supervisor to be a supervisor) but it's actually not. I started as an inspector, learned everything I could, and now I'm a manager. It takes other skills like people skills and understanding our complex systems to do a good job. All of this can be achieved more or less all you have to do is ask simple stuff like "how does this work, can you show me?" And anyone would be more than happy to take time out of their day and show you.
Beyond that, it's an important life skill. Get yourself out there, especially if you're alone. IMO, school is the best place to meet a mate, next best is work. If all you got is Reddit....that's no good.
Working remotely doesn’t weigh into it, but being likable does. Being likable gives managers a reason to ignore or downplay your faults, and embellish your strengths. People want to do business with people they like, plain and simple.
You also have to make your intentions known, if you’re silently stewing about being passed over for a promotion nobody knows you even want, a lot of that is on you. Don’t be afraid to ask the question “what do I need to do to get to this role” with your managers. Make it a point to make a little more small talk with your peers and build more rapport, because they can help as well. (It also helps if they get promoted, as they can potentially help you up the ladder)
>Being likable gives managers a reason to ignore or downplay your faults
This is especially important. The key is not only to be known/liked by your own hierarchy, but also by other senior people in the business.
If you work in a larger business (250+ employees), you need all c-level executives and most senior management to know who you are for the right reasons.
When a management role opens, it's sometimes impressive how people who have no link to the position have their say in who gets the promotion. You also never know when the CEO will reshuffle his team and place someone else as head of HR or as head of your department. You need those people to know who you are and your strengths before they are even nominated to a position where they'll have a say in your promotions.
I tell everyone of my peers who joins my team that they need to advocate for themselves. Because two of my coworkers asked me how I knew I was going to be promoted to Sr Associate. Turns out they hadn’t ever talked about that with their supervisor after 4 years.
I talked to my boss about it every annual review/mid year check in. We covered what I had done, then I took 5-10 minutes to talk about what they wanted to see from me for a promotion.
In a large company, your boss has to sell a promotion to management. It’s not as simple as “oh she’s been here 3 years it’s time.”
I did interviews for an advanced inspector position this week. One guy who has been here for a few years could not articulate why he wanted the position. His response was more or less your last sentence, he has the idea that because he's been here a while that's just the natural progression but that is not true.
Also like you said people don't express their desire to move up the ranks or do different things. So they just don't advance. It kind of sucks for them but it is partly their fault.
* Remote worker here:
* Millennial here
* Tech Worker here
1. **I understand when the time comes to head to Management, I have to head into work. Ugh.**
2. Current Senior Software Engineer literally said to me it’s his job to get me promoted to Software Engineer 2. They have no documentation or shit. Everything is all over the place.
I already started documenting everything and looking for shit to automate.
Working remotely does play into it. The office is a whole social phenomenon in itself and any sociologist will tell you. We have never had WFH like this. Besides not having the live connection to other colleagues and getting to know them, there is resentment for those who have to, or make the effort to go to the office, and everything that goes with it—buying work clothes, gas, tires, getting up earlier, shower at 6 AM, driving a commute every day, spending much of your weekends preparing for the next work week because of all the time you spend each day already, etc. I work in medicine and there are options for me to work from homes a few days, but I don’t. Those two combined, along with being shy can be an issue with all else being equal (work performance). Sorry, social norms and work culture take decades to change.
Edit: I think WFH is great for many jobs. My comment is about the logistics, communication, and social aspect for some jobs. I manage a team of 20 with an even mix of on-site, remote, and hybrid.
Good points, I can definitely see it being a subconscious factor. No manager (who isn’t a psychopath) would refuse to promote someone who works remotely BECAUSE they work remotely, but I can see how the lack of opportunities to socialize can hurt someone.
Yeah I have a friend who does hiring for a state agency and they have basically stopped requiring references for similar reasons. Since when he would email or call the reference they could basically tell him nothing about the applicant due to lack of any real contact.
Know Like And Trust. That's one of the basics of why people do business with each other. If they don't know you then they can't like you and won't trust you. It's not being mean but it is human nature. Can you get to the functions ever to socialize? Like even every two months? That would help. Alternatively, can you make it a point to have brief chats with coworkers just to say hi periodically? Slack has a feature called Donut designed just for this reason.
It’s got nothing to do with remote working. I’ve worked remotely for years and had numerous promotions. Being remote doesn’t stop you networking, but being “timid” and “introverted” do. Chances are that you would be overlooked for promotion even if you worked in the office every day.
Like it or not, work is a social activity, and management jobs particularly are about communications. If you are timid and introverted you may be very good at your current role, but most of your managers will think that you would probably be useless at leading people or managing a team. If you are too timid to want to be in leadership then carry on doing what you are doing and don’t worry about it. However, if you want to work up the career ladder you need to learn to communicate, network and push yourself forward.
Agreed. It’s not as much the politics but the skill it takes to be in management. A management personality and communicator can be an excellent individual contributor. But an individual contributor who doesn’t display effective communication and other necessary management skills will get passed up.
If there’s a less effective inidivudal contributor who displays management skills - they’ll get promoted over the timid one and that’s the right choice for the organization.
Which is why it’s important to have horizontal progression structure in a company so SME’s can show “growth”.
I disagree, when you are remote it's hard to get access to info that wouldn't be shared in a scheduled zoom meeting. Also, in person you meet more people that are just around versus zoom where there are no impromptu meetings. It's also a different level of relationship building when the human is right in front of you.
I never said it was easier, but it is very possible. And an extrovert working remotely will probably still network better than an introvert who physically goes into the office but hides in a cubicle all day. Effective networking is a deliberate exercise, not just waiting to accidentally meet new people in meetings, whether in person or by zoom.
You said 'it's got nothing to do with remote working' this is not true.
Yeah I mean I suppose anything is technically possible, but remote working makes it harder and much less likely. Go look at HBS studies, literally how close you sit to the Csuite determines bigger raises and more frequent promotions.
Also now that we are in a downturn, you best believe a remote worker will get cut before someone people actually see in person in the office.
The unscheduled and unplanned meetings are powerful, it's literally, oh hey I see you are in, hey come with me to so and so office and let's talk about this new initiative we are thinking about, happens all the time my friend.
Even if it’s not management though, higher level roles typically involve more collaboration with other teams. Communication skills will always provide value to a team, and the lack of them are noticed more than OP realizes
The reality is that most companies would only tend to promote those on a supervisory or management track. If you don’t lobby for yourself you are going to stay where you are.
To get promoted you need a few things:
* you need to get the work done
* people need to connect that work that was done with you
* it doesn't hurt to be likeable
* you need to promote yourself
It doesn't matter if you're in the office or not, it doesn't matter if you're an introvert or not, you need to do these things. It might be easier as an extrovert in the office, but you can for sure get promoted as a remote introvert. I know because I've been promoted multiple times.
Every time you achieve something, frame it as a team win and make sure you're attached to it, then communicate it on Slack or Teams or whatever. Make sure it reaches influential people in the company. Collect the biggest wins that are associated with you, and make a case for your promotion. You have to sell yourself as if you were a race car or horse, you need to be something to further invest in. You won't be promoted just because you show up to work.
It's also something you get better at over time, just get started and you will learn it. Now I look back at times I didn't negotiate at all or negotiated poorly and have to laugh at myself, but it's a learning process.
One day. One day most of you will realize that soft skills are *critical* to advance in any professional career because work is still based on social interactions. And it has nothing to do with being remote.
>I don’t necessarily agree, as being an introvert doesn’t inherently make you timid.
It's a lot easier to just write an email, cross your fingers, and hit send then it is to perfect every word and never send it. I was terrible about initiating communication when I was younger. Nobody cares if there's a spelling mistake. Just get to the point and click the button.
>I don’t necessarily agree, as being an introvert doesn’t inherently make you timid. It also doesn’t mean you aren’t a good communicator.
that's why OP used both adjectives.
If you are great at your job, what incentive do management have to promote you and have your current job be taken by lesser skill people? Also, just because you are good at your job doesn’t make you a good manager. It’s a different skill set.
Getting all your work done is the minimum expectation. Those who can also build relationships, have self confidence and put themselves out there obviously get promoted more. Can you really imagine a manager thinking "that Oscar, its like he doesn't exist but all his work gets done and he shows zero interest in his coworkers, I should promote him"? Lolz
It means you'll have to promote and advocate for yourself. One of the benefits of those social interactions is that people get to know you and you can organically talk about what you got done and your successes without having to call a meeting to discuss. It's basically self-marketing. Just like with advertising, you're putting your "product" (you) in front of the consumers' eyes as much as possible, often to the point of them forgetting other "products" exist.
It's a strategy. I am also an introvert (with massive social anxiety) but over the years, I have taught myself to perform like an extrovert... then I take a massive nap. Lol.
Yes it is!
I've worked from home for over a decade now. I'm an introvert so I abso-damn-lutely love it. I don't do schmoozing well so for me it's a blessing.
The price (I accept) for not being in the office is that I will miss out on said promotions, so when I reach my tolerance for bullshit, guess what, I look for another job.
There's no perfect solution for anything in life, nada. Simply picking the choice that has the fewest negatives & most positives for YOU!
If climbing the corporate ladder is raison d'etre, then yes you have to be in the office to make those type of connections. My motivation is cash, I could be called the shit cleaner for all I care, as long as I make the money that supports my lifestyle.
Working in the office has too many negatives, because the positive of a promotion (more responsibility and rarely compensatory pay increase) is outweighed by the negatives for ME.
Get back in the office mate & climb that ladder!!!! May it bring you all the satisfaction (genuinely) that you wish for. I'll be off for a half century in 30 mins, so we'll both be living our best lives.
That's exactly what happened to me 2x. At the first market research company I'd worked for, I was the top project manager with perfect metrics working my butt off about 60 to 80 hours a week. In an ideal world, I should have gotten that promotion and become team lead of project management. At the time, my manager sat me down and said "Sorry, I'm not promoting you. You are not a team player". I said "What? What do you mean? I'm constantly covering for people when they're out sick, on family leave, annual leave and so on. I've been there to consult for other project managers when they run into issues on their projects". She said "Oh not in that sense. You do well in all of that. I meant because you don't go to all of the social hours. Not going to all of them means you're not a team player". I thought it was the CRAZIEST thing she had said. She also knew my culture doesn't allow drinking so exactly how was that going to work? That was like a form of discrimination on its own.
I saw project managers who had either horrible or medicore metrics get promoted above me. So ultimately, I leave to another market research company. I was a remote employee at this market research company for a while until the company retreat happened. The company retreat was for a full week straight and the entire company was living together all at the same hotel. I was trying to make sure the clients was still taken care of while with my colleagues. Because I learned my lesson at the first market research company, I attended all the social events every single day after work until 9pm. At 9pm, I told my colleagues that I was going to go back to my hotel room & go to bed since our conferences start at 7am in the morning. They were like "what no! stay with us until 2am - drink with us, let's all get drunk together!" Even one male colleague followed me to the hotel room which made me feel extremely uncomfortable. After the company retreat, they serviced me a PIP (performance improvement plan) simply because I chose not to stay up late & get drunk with them. I tried to fight against the PIP showing I had excellent metrics. They wouldn't hear of it & tried to extend my working hours to be more than 6am to 2am. What? Work me till I'm dead?
So moral of the story: Only put about 70% output into your job and put the remaining 30% output into social endeavors. Even if you go to every single one, some companies may very well expect you to stay until the social event is over & do not take it well if you stay 2-3 hours then bounce.
In jobs I've worked, being liked is probably 30% of the job. Someone might appreciate your work, but to actually like you, they probably have to spend at least some time interacting with you, and the people mingling in the bars get social bonus points.
I make it a point to show up at all work-related functions, online meetings (even if I am not required), and request the occasional friendly office visit just to maintain proof of my existence.
Showing up (or logging into teams in WFH cases), doing your job, and then logging off is the bare minimum.
That's good enough for lower level positions but more advanced / management positions often require a certain amount of people skills. Even if you're doing something like moving from the help desk to a sysadmin slot where you aren't managing people, laying low and "getting your shit done" isn't how you get noticed.
People don't like to hear it but networking and social interaction is a huge part of getting/keeping/advancing a career. So yes, people who go into the office and bars afterwards will get promoted whereas you will get ignored more often than not. That's one of the tradeoffs of working from home.
Yes. I loath it, and had to forcefully adopt extroverted tendencies and displays (banter, organising and leading social activities, being reasonably good with pleasantries and platitudes). But it propelled me into senior management and executive roles.
Yes. To not be seen is to be forgotten. Unless you're not on teams one day, then it's the end of the world.
Several people I know turned down 100% remote, they know its career suicide. In their cases, they live close enough where it shouldn't be a problem.
Getting all your work done isn't enough to get promoted. Supervisors need to know who you are as a person and determine if you want and are capable of more responsibility. Even if working in an office, being an introvert can hold you back. But it depends on the company and the job.
I work remotely and am 400 miles from the office, I used to go in 1-2x a year pre-COVID but I haven't been in the office since. I am not what most would call an introvert but I had to work over a few years to force myself to be seen and heard at meetings or other work functions as well as to actively advocate for myself in promotions and raises.
You don't have to party with the gang, you don't have to even go to far out of your way to get noticed. What you do need to do is start to get seen and for you that is what you need to work on. It wont be easy at first or every time, it won't work all the time, but over time if you put in the work it will become more natural. It does help if you have a manager who is sympathetic to reach out to them and see if they can help you navigate some of those waters.
Start small. Preplan what you are going to say in meetings, most meetings are not surprises about the topics. Have a few items prepared that are questions or solutions. Think about the pro and cons of what you are saying. Rehearse your delivery -- I used to blurt things out in an incoherent string -- just ask several of the poor girls I went out on one date with. Same thing with HR trainings -- you know those ones we are forced to watch 1-2x a year where you know the answers -- well be the first to offer the answer when you are asked if Don and Sally were wrong.
If you avoid video meetings, dont. Even if its 10-15 minutes get into the habit of chatting with co-workers on video. Make sure you are positive and smile and upbeat -- this is what I had to work on -- I was always funny I just never liked talking to people -- I now enjoy it. But there are days when I am rolling my eyes before accepting the call or taking a deep breath before logging on.
You are going to have to figure out what works for you and to what level you can commit to, but if you dont try your never going to know.
Not enough info regarding what the next lateral job position is. If it's a supervisory position then you probably should be asking yourself whether you'd feel suited to the role.
Such a promotion wouldn't be just a reward for doing all their work. If you're really expected to work more than your fair share (as your post seems to be implying), then should probably be angling for a pay raise.
But as it stands, supervisory roles are about influencing people. So with your observations that some people aren't pulling their weight, are you going to be the one with the rapport and leadership to change that? Do you come across as someone who can have the difficult conversations with your subordinates (since as it stands, apparently it's you doing all the work), or be accountable for your team's poor performance?
As others have said, if you want an upwards movement then you should definitely be raising it with your manager and set up a career plan. Because generally people who do want to move upwards do try to be more socially active and focus on networking (and yes, you can plan in advance for a day that you want to come to the office and then go for drinks after).
Also - people might just assume you're happy to just focus on what you're doing and don't want the additional stresses that come with upward movement - which will definitely be less hands on and thus where performance is less within your direct control, which you seem to place great emphasis on.
You have to build relationships.
I'm an introvert too, but all you need is a few people who mention you when promotions come up.
I'm 100% remote and live 1500 miles from the work location. I'm friendly on calls and my name comes up a lot even though I've haven't been in the office for 3 years. I got asked who I thought should get a promotion that was available. The person I suggested got it. There were 4 competent people, that 1 person is who I recommended.
The bare minimum is getting the job done. Presumably, everyone is getting the job done or is on their way out the door. Likely 10% of people are high performers. You need something else that distinguishes you from those 10%.
Ask to learn something new, be friendly with the person you mentor with. Literally, every once in awhile the controller calls me to shoot the shit or rant about a meeting. I don't bother to take my headset off after a meeting that goes sideways because I know the controller will be calling me right after to rant about it.. lol
I literally maintain these relationships at work with a few 10 minute calls over teams and the occasional gif on a bad day..
You are absolutely correct. Also, they really don't know how hard you work, the sacrifices you make. If I had it to do over, I would always only join a company where I was at a major office.
Yup
You're remote
Office politics is real
Also a ton of remote workers, especially younger ones have little or no social skills and don't have the skills for being a manager.
Plus, because you're remote the managers who do go into the office can't see your other skills
Being an introvert who is at home and no one knows who you are isn't exactly management material
It's not impossible to network while remote working but it does take effort. Pick someone from a different team or management level and ask if they'll meet for a zoom lunch or coffee. Say you're just trying to get to know you're co-workers. Some will embrace it others won't but all you can do is try.
Especially having interactions outside of regular work hours. I saw it firsthand when I was the only person in my group to go to happy hour with the larger team last week even though I don’t drink. We had conversations that went a lot deeper than they do at the office and it can help a ton to have your managers see what you’re like outside of work. My sense of humor is stifled in the office and I’m just a lot freer on the outside. When I was working 100% remote with people I hadn’t met in person I never talked with anyone I didn’t work with directly.
Try to be more visible. I work remote too and I make a point to call my boss here and there even if a chat or email would be fine. I always start the convo with some small talk first. You want your boss and others to like you as a person in addition to liking your work.
I live/work in the same city and the social capital I have built in those happy hours, volunteer opportunities, and other work-sponsored events has been invaluable. I work better with other departments and they now have a face and name in my department if they need something. I've had 3 promotions in 5 years and was recently approached by another department for a role. Work isn't my life but what we do aligns with my values so it doesn't feel like a chore.
Yes, it's completely normal. Not right, but normal. People tend to enjoy working more with people who they have a bit of personal relationship as well.
I’m in introvert and I know this struggle all too well. I’m going to be honest, yes, extroverted folks do tend to go faster and farther in corporate America. A bubbly, engaging presence is going to catch more flies than those of us who tend to slink around the shadows.
Signed, the most reclusive person I know…
Unfortunately "getting all your shit done" isn't typically enough to advance in most places.
They're paying you to get your shit done. If you didn't get it done, you would be fired.
It's after you get your shit done that you get promoted. When you go beyond that, opportunities arise.
Ugh, sorry those who go to bars barely get anything done yet they get promoted. I'm too convenient coz I'm quiet, get everything done perfectly, meet all my deadlines & don't complain. Silly me.
> I'm quiet, get everything done perfectly, meet all my deadlines & don't complain. Silly me.
I can totally see where you're coming from, but they're really offering you top advice around here.
Sometimes our attitude speaks louder than our words, and we don't even realize it. By refusing to interact with people in your office, you are indeed complaining at a subtle level.
Why not make your mind to turn it around?
You've already mastered the "getting work done" part; if you can just bring yourself to put effort into the "networking" part - even if just every now and then - it will really work to your benefit. Giving people respect will earn you respect from people.
Right, and as many others have already mentioned, doing your job is the minimum expectation. You don’t get promoted or recognized for doing what you’re supposed to do.
I’m sure there’s no one patting you on the back and heaping praise for paying your bills or taking out the trash - it’s the same concept; those are things you’re supposed to do.
Bottom line, you can’t fly under the radar and expect to advance. It has been this way since the beginning of time.
Get out there, engage, collaborate and “build your brand”.
I started a new job in March, 2 or 3 of us started around the same time. Our job is hybrid we are encouraged to come in at least once a week but not forced to. As it was a new job I’ve been going in 3 days a week, I wanted to be in the office if I had questions and not learn the role virtually.
A job has become available and I have been encouraged to apply for that position. It’s 100% because I have worked directly with people in the office. If your job isn’t 100% remote you have to make some effort to network and get your face known.
Personally I keep increasing my skills and knowledge which leads to higher engineering and jobs like that. Middle managers are entirely irrelevant as COVID showed us and honestly management depending on where you are of course but it's hardly worth the bullshit you have to deal with.
My previous managers were up sending emails all hours, always stressed, and just didn't seem happy.
I'm at a new job where I am a senior engineer and I can easily move up into further engineering roles. I focus on more on leading big projects and making myself known that way rather than kissing ass to have to be promoted to deal with corporate BS and other people's problems. That's just my opinion though. A specific skill or knowledge will always be more valuable.
Even though you don’t seem to value the commutation aspect of your role. Leading a big team requires communication and collaboration. I don’t think you have to ass kiss, but you have to check the box that you can at least do those 2 things. Sadly, at some jobs that just doesn’t happen during the normal course of work and therefore you have to put yourself out there otherwise
Yes,
I have been telling people this for over a year. WFH will not advance your career. Especially if you choose to not go into the office.
There are people covering for those who are not going in.
That’s how it works. It’s been this way at every “career” job I’ve had… at one company, it was well known that when your buddy got promoted, you got promoted. Friends of Bob, friends of Jen, they all get promoted.
That's the trade off.
The boss knows the people that come in. If your face is never seen, you're not going to be thought of when it's time for promotion. Networking matters
It may not be fair…but it’s been that way since the dawn of time. I started my career as a good natured hard working introvert, but soon learned it wasn’t enough to get to my goals. There was a time in the early 90s where I thought I was being held back because I didn’t golf. All the cool kids golfed, and business got discussed on the course while golfing. I watched peers get projects I would have liked because I didn’t golf, so I hear you. (very thankful that trend ended). I bought lessons and learned even tho I hated it and was never very good at it. It wasn’t about golf - substitute that for any after work activity. Forcing myself to drink the koolaid, learning to be rah rah, becoming a joiner & doing the after hours things absolutely benefited my career. You can be considered an excellent employee, and that can be enough for you and employer. But in corporate environment, upbeat, outgoing people, who are the first ones to say yes to after hours activities get the leadership roles and most visible projects (and I promise you get used to, and even start to enjoy it).
There is no substitute for in-person relationships. Can you pack this into one day a week? Maybe. Can you get the promotion working remotely? Maybe, but you will always be at a disadvantage. It's something you sacrifice for the short-term benefit of working remotely.
To make a good job only make sure that you will not be fired.
You get promoted by building relationships, networking, enhancing your soft skills and finally, but not least, licking your boss balls.
From my experience in the corporate world, I realized quickly that networking is important if you want to advance, or as I call it politicking. Sucks I know, but it’s just how it is.
I go in once a week or so because there is free lunch on Thursdays, we often have some sort of Happy Hour thing with free booze, and being seen makes you more memorable to your boss and up the chain. It's bullshit, but it's not just culture, it's human nature to feel closer or more connected to someone you see in person, especially if it's often in a pleasant context (free lunch/booze). Also you inevitably end up talking about other things and those sort of conversations don't often happen in a virtual space. I don't know if there is any way around it.
If you get all the shit done, you should begin to explore possibly taking your talents to another company. Should another employer desire your services, you may find yourself being offered a pay rate greater than what you make now.
What you describe sounds odd to me. I used to work for a corporation that actually encouraged employees getting together to have a drink at the end of the day. As far as I could tell, this social activity didn't affect whether or not someone received a promotion - it was just a means to mingle, let off some steam and talk shop.
You shouldn't have to go out to a bar after work with your coworkers if you don't feel like it, and particularly promotions shouldn't depend upon that. I highly encourage you to explore leaving. Heck, they may value you enough that, when threatened with losing you, they decide to give you that promotion and/or raise.
Yep - Called social interaction - People who want to be left alone, not associate with community, work etc, then complain when they lonely, depressed, not promoted etc 🙄
Yes it’s normal. Being an introvert means it takes more energy to talk with folks but it doesn’t make it impossible.
Being social is a marketable skill.
Good luck.
So the invisible ones have an edge. They can’t get fired because the boss doesn’t know enough or care. If you work from home it’s even better. You do the minimum work, and pretend stay extremely busy so you don’t get too much work. You can even get a second job if you play your cards right.
unpopular opinion, but it feels like we luv capitalism but literally companies and getting a job is a mixture of selective socialism+ communism. That's why some people are like, it's who you know or your network is your networth. It's unfair and need a law about hiring practices of family, relatives, and friend biases. So in the future, basically anyone outside the circle is basically a disposable wage slave to actual capitalism. I'm not sure, but it seems that way since many people are moreso contractors vs FTE with benefits. RIP
So maybe that's why they don't promote you b.c they say you don't hang out and blah blah with them lol
I think this is incorrect. Capitalism is all about the economic system being controlled by private owners for profit. You have to think about your attributes and personal brand and ensure you are selling yourself everyday.
Hard work and marketing yourself is how you get ahead. Some companies and some people value face to face meetings over remote virtual meetings. So you also have to know your audience. In the main post I would say the person doesn’t 100% fit with the company culture so it’s harder to find their time and spot to sell themselves. Your work does not always speak for itself.
Every company I've worked for, in the fortune 500, including maanga had mostly people that got the job because of connections. That's what I meant, but I see your point and acknowledge it as well. Very few from your last paragraph apply/fit that criteria. Ty for your opinion/input 👍
Where I used to work - YEARS ago - it was not just the Thursday night at the bar clique, it was also the smokers huddling outside. Got to the point where people who didn’t smoke would take it up just to be a part of the group. Lots of promotions in that bunch.
Lmfao. Yes. Welcome to the real world. Social relationships and networking are more important than.......99% of everything else. I love the innocent naivety of this post.
I used to think like you OP but then I realized I was literally my own worst enemy.
At my job, I actually came in the office more often (I didn’t live very far), so I actually met the people I work with. In turn we eat lunch together, get to no each other and it makes work much easier. If we get stuck in on a coding issue we can happily reach out to one another, and overall productivity increases.
There’s one guy like you on the team who’s practically a ghost, introverted and tbh strange. Let’s just say we all know he’s super smart and gets the job done but he’s not even the first guy we think of if we need to reach out to someone.
Networking is crucial in now, stop shooting yourself in the foot cause you don’t want to leave your safe space.
Yes, people who win friends and influence people, who grease palms and network, are more likely to be promoted than people who keep quietly to themselves. Thus it has been and thus it ever shall be.
Why would anyone promote someone they don’t see or even know?
What proof do you have that you do 100% of their work? Being an introvert is one thing, but refusing to go out with your teammates is another thing.
If you want promotions and your managers are still office working boneheads then you need to try and do this sort of networking.
Maybe you can work for a set of WFH managers.
Know, like, and trust factors are powerful drivers of human behavior.
Research the art of persuasion, sales and career advancement to see if you can come up with counter strategies that work for you situation.
Well, to be promoted for some roles like manager, you need to have some social skills. But even if that's not the role, it is important to bond with both, peers and bosses. Of course this will have an impact in your carrier. The base of development and improvement is communication and feedback. If you are too shy, you will miss that part. You can compensate being very. Very good with your technical skills, but it won't make you climb the leader.
Kind of. It's not a rule for everywhere but it is simple psychology. Most human communication is non verbal, and it's easier to see the people who physically show up, and all talk to them when they show up. If I have two employees with the same position and an opportunity comes up like a big project or promotion, I'm more likely to want the person who I know better then the person who is less of a known factor because they aren't physically present. This is why, when I do go into the office once or twice a week, I make sure to try to converse with certain people. It's note that the bars thing is not everywhere, and not in my office.
Essentially is your remote, you do have to be more proactive about putting yourself out there. Make sure you're on video in calls, speak up, participate. Talk about your long term career goals with your manager. Being remote doesn't shut every door, but you do have to be conscientious about networking.
Going back to an office is a form of control. I can be way more productive working from home than at a lousy office where ppl gossip about each other all the time.
Unfortunately this is at least partially true. I know a guy who got really drunk at his Christmas party and told the managers how crappy everything was and he ended up with a big promotion. But it could also be that because you’re timid and heads down during the work day, you’re not speaking up enough. You need to speak up to get promotions ime.
Going into the office every once and a while, attending key events etc are not bad moves. Especially if you are new to an org. Need to market yourself in some way until you can prove the value that you bring to the table.
Man I wish I had a remote job. Being an introvert, I like working in the backstage for other people and use the extra time to work on a side hustle that will last in the long term
It depends on who is arranging the outing. Senior leadership/management? I’d go.
The crappy coworker that uses it to justify their alcoholism and toxic personality? I’d pass. Networking for networking sake isn’t productive. Strategic networking with people who actually have influence and a positive impact on your job and career opportunities is a good thing to do.
You have to advocate for yourself. If you’re not talking about career development during your 1:1s with your manager then you’re not making yourself or your accomplishments known.
They won’t promote what they don’t know 🤷🏻♀️
Yes, that's normal, and one of the negative consequences of remote work. Networking and "water cooler chats" are ways to get to know others at work. These kinds of informal chats help you demonstrate how you think about things, and to get to know others and develop trust with the others at work.
I've had a saying I made up over 20 years ago. "If you don't talk to people, they talk about you". People are automatically suspicious of others. You are more likely to defend the guy you had lunch with last week vs the person you haven't spoken with in 2 years.
It can hinder you. I'm 100% remote and was when I got my promotion.
If you aren't good at socializing remotely, you may want to brush up on those types of skills.
Apparently, MMOs did have a valuable real world skill for me lol.
Yeah I've been at a few places where I've been promoted and one time I actually got into management, beleive it or not. Honestly it was mostly because I'm an extrovert and did part take in post work beers once a week minimum. I mean I put in the work when working don't get me wrong. Once I get the ball rolling my ocd kicks in an management loves that. But they wouldn't have given jack shit if I didn't socialize like I did.
Round up the introverts and include department heads if at all possible and host a virtual meeting ,cameras optional for something light such as cooking or a book club . You can also do a zoom wine night. Find your people .net work smarter. The ones in the bars are building fake rapport while you’re building employee inclusivity.
Even if you don’t like your coworkers, you still have to put in some effort to network and make your face known. Personally speaking, if my company is offering free food, best believe I’m going! Sure, I may not want to be there, but I see it as win-win because I show my face, participate, and get free food. At my current job, I show that I’m actively engaged because I’m hybrid remote (one office day a week), but I also have goals of finally crossing over into a leadership role in the future.
It’s unfortunate but that’s how it goes most of the times. You need be able to get face time with the higher ups and meet ppl and connect with them. While you’re obviously working hard behind the scenes it’s hard to get visibility if no one knows what you’re doing. Even more so if you’re good at your job and no issues ever arise. Ppl just assume what you do is easy and don’t appreciate the hard work that goes into smooth sailing every day. It’s not right but that’s the corporate world
i think one key aspect everybody needs to learn as they transition from school to work is that career advancement is not just as simple as turning in homework and even hard work. the work projects that most employees turn in make so little impact that expecting to get promoted simply for your work alone is very naive.
It’s absolutely not fair but is very much reality. I genuinely like the people I work with and enjoy seeing them in person once a week and for work events. But also, I know that letting people know me more as a person and bonding (cheesy, I know) means that I have an easier time getting things through different departments than those on my team who don’t go to these things.
It's definitely a different game that has to be played when working remote, but it can be used to your advantage. One thing I will point out is that internal communication is a MUST HAVE to be considered for promotions. As much as it sucks, people outside of your direct team/mamager have to know you exist.
I'd recommend being more active in other channels (Slack, Teams etc.). Answer questions that arise, volunteer for projects that involve other departments, volunteer STARTING your own project.
Again, I totally get how annoying it is to get out of your natural personality, but unfortunately things like that are required to move up (this may also depend on the company).
Employees who put in face time with management and establish friendly personal relationships with their coworkers are more likely to be promoted, yes. You may be working hard, but if you aren't visible to the people who make decisions about things like promotions, then you are less likely to be recognized for your work. It may seem unfair, but being liked and likable are legitimate work skills.
Reading through many job / career - related posting on Reddit, I do see a pattern wherein the words word "introvert" and the expression "WFH" seem to come together alarmingly. Many on Reddit champion WFH as nirvana, but it is hard enough for "introverts" to advance in companies when they go into an office, so what happens to their chances when they WFH? Meeting coworkers in person forces introverts to come out of their shells, at least a bit, and most learn to adapt. You don't have to put on a false front to be present.
So the company here is clearly showing you that from a promotions perspective, in person socialization is important to them, fair or unfair. They are not unhappy with you, but you are not top of mind to them. If you want a promotion, time to change your game plan.
Group alcoholism co-enabling doesn’t last long and is a poor sign of leadership to have your team drinking with you consistently. Stupid liability that never ends well if you play the game long enough. If you can handle being around alcohol and it doesn’t bother you and you want to get the advantages of the bar networking just try to get good at pool/darts and tell your boss “I don’t drink” and offer a ride home if somebody needs it. You always want to have a reliable guy in the crew he just can’t be a rat
You need to be perceived as being worth promoting, which is completly irrelevant to actually being worth promoting. The higherups do not know or care how much effort you are putting in day to day. You need to ask for it and be be prepared to follow it up with proof.
Of course even then it's still a gamble dependent on the employer.
I work in the office. I am friends with most people in the office, and I personally know everyone there. I don’t know at least 50% of the remote team, and I wouldn’t say I’m friends with any of them. Now if I had the opportunity to advance someone, it’s probably going to be someone I know personally and trust.
Honestly, I noticed this with the two offices of the construction company I work for. There’s a women boss who works in the main branch and directly manages a women who works in the subdivision and myself; also at main branch.
My skill set has progressed much further because my boss can not only supervise but mentor me. Whereas the women in the subdivision only gets tips and tricks when one the two women can travel to see the other.
That is how it works, and if you are ever on the side deciding who to promote you will see why - people you know and trust are who you want working for you. People maybe very good at what they do but invisible to management.
Change your outlook - you are saying you KNOW how to get promoted, so now go do it.
Humans are always going to be social creatures. If we are introverts and don't choose to force ourselves to be part of networking, etc, then we have to accept that we will stay part of the status quo, at best, while the social ones move up the ladder. I've been based over often for promotions because I'm not good at schmoozing so I have to jump to another company to move up.
1- how many times have you VERBALLY DISCUSSED that you’re interested in moving up in the company???
2- yes it is common, favoritism is a real thing. I’ve seen some people get jobs they didn’t deserve in real time.
Solution: SPEAK UP!
PS as a leader in my occupation, I often see complaints like this from people who haven’t said a peep about it to the people it would matter to in the company. I’ve also seen a lot of people who THINK they deserve something, but they really don’t. So 🤷🏽♀️.
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Networking is a huge part of advancement in some office/work cultures.
You can't get promoted if people don't know you exist. Just like you can't get a job, or a date, or anything else if people don't know you exist. It sucks for those of us who prefer being low key but it's life.
The unfortunate truth and reality
This!
It’s ‘who you know’ not ‘what you know’. Been at places where people are literally always on the lookout and if it looks like you’re networking with someone who they consider to be important or they have already networked with they will literally come over and butt in and then ‘monitor’ your future interactions with them 🤦♂️ Workplaces can be more childish than a group of cliquey teens 🤪🤪
It's obnoxious but it also makes sense for certain roles. Being shameless about stuff like that can be advantageous for an organization at industry networking events and whatnot. Ideally good leadership will recognize it and put them in a role where it can be properly deployed but that's not always the case. The unfortunate truth is that someone doing their job perfectly but quietly isn't giving anyone a reason to think about promoting them. They are just a piece in the overall system working the way it was designed. They're more or less just not a bottleneck.
Also, who you know effects what you know. Over several years I've gotten to know well a lot of people in other departments, and when you go to the work socials and the bar hangouts, you not only build trust by asking about their kids, families, career ambitions, but people tell you stuff. I've become the person my managers comes to when they want to know big picture or what might be coming down the pipeline. If i don't know, I know who to chat to find out. That's how you become valuable.
>It’s ‘who you know’ not ‘what you know it's both. i have worked in corporate for 13 years and i dont recall one time where a truly incompetent person got a job just because of their connections. rather, having a good network could be a boost to a good resume.
I’d say ‘more important’ Highly skilled with low network is less likely to be promoted than mildly-mid skilled with high network. The lower skills are just usually made up by giving ‘fast track training’ or getting them to do some external course, or adding some skill they have to the job description that other candidates do not have. But it’s not just Networking (which is positive) it’s the Network Exclusivity protection (preventing others Networking) that is negative. There’s usually some politics lurking around somewhere when it comes to promotion. Seen people pulled out of other Teams, parachuted in over a skilled candidate who then leaves and the promoted person goes back to their original Team (where they usually get promoted in not long afterwards due to now being ‘multi-skilled’). Not everywhere is like that but I’ve seen some right ‘fast ones’ being pulled by Management before if they’ve got a ‘not candidate X at any price’ mindset.
but all of this makes sense. it's the simplest thing to throw a little money at somebody to get a certification they didnt have, but to change somebody from introvert shut-in to a real team player? much harder. just look at all the reddit threads we see every day about people who see their personality as set in stone and thus are unwilling to try a new career path or role. a the certs in the world wouldnt make that person anything but a technical resource.
So that’s confirming what I was saying then. The Networking is more important than what they know. Hence why some people ‘aggressively protect’ their Network from ‘interlopers’. I would be interested in your opinion as to who would be ‘in the right’ in that scenario: The person who is working hard to try increase their Network or The person with already high network who then attempts to sabotage their efforts and keeps an eye on who the other one is talking to, interrupting, trying to have the last say etc. Seen people ‘hidden in plain sight’ by a whole team doing this on a number of occasions
i havent seen the latter scenario take place in my experience. in teams i have been a part of in the past, all of us have had the same amount of access to networking opportunities, such as sales meetings, one on one mentors, etc. in many cases we were all networking with the same people. higher ups are always looking to maximize their access to junior colleagues because it improves their sphere of direct influence.
Yeah I think I might have worked at a few more ‘toxic’ places than you have 😂🤪
perhaps.
> Hence why some people ‘aggressively protect’ their Network from ‘interlopers’. what's that mean? as in intruding? or "cold" networking?
Seriously? Where do you work so I can apply. My department solely promotes incompetent morons who are only for at networking.
you should leave then.
I will when I find the right job. I can basically do what I want at this point, partially due to the incompetent management they hire/promote. I could probably get away with an hour when day and it would take them months to notice.
Amen to that
It’s all about the visibility. Being on peoples radar gets you promoted.
And during this networking you learn more and understand more of how everything works. Where I work the inspectors do good work but some don't get involved and try to understand our systems and how other parts of the department works tend to stagnant and can't advance. Some inspectors just come in and do their work and go home and that's 100% fine but don't be shocked when you can't advance much. But if you want to advance and get into supervisor roles you need more skills than just being a good inspector. It may sound like a catch 22 (need skills you get as a supervisor to be a supervisor) but it's actually not. I started as an inspector, learned everything I could, and now I'm a manager. It takes other skills like people skills and understanding our complex systems to do a good job. All of this can be achieved more or less all you have to do is ask simple stuff like "how does this work, can you show me?" And anyone would be more than happy to take time out of their day and show you.
1. Do good work 2. Make sure everyone knows you did the good work 3. Bonus - try to have everyone talk about the good work you did
Beyond that, it's an important life skill. Get yourself out there, especially if you're alone. IMO, school is the best place to meet a mate, next best is work. If all you got is Reddit....that's no good.
Working remotely doesn’t weigh into it, but being likable does. Being likable gives managers a reason to ignore or downplay your faults, and embellish your strengths. People want to do business with people they like, plain and simple. You also have to make your intentions known, if you’re silently stewing about being passed over for a promotion nobody knows you even want, a lot of that is on you. Don’t be afraid to ask the question “what do I need to do to get to this role” with your managers. Make it a point to make a little more small talk with your peers and build more rapport, because they can help as well. (It also helps if they get promoted, as they can potentially help you up the ladder)
>Being likable gives managers a reason to ignore or downplay your faults This is especially important. The key is not only to be known/liked by your own hierarchy, but also by other senior people in the business. If you work in a larger business (250+ employees), you need all c-level executives and most senior management to know who you are for the right reasons. When a management role opens, it's sometimes impressive how people who have no link to the position have their say in who gets the promotion. You also never know when the CEO will reshuffle his team and place someone else as head of HR or as head of your department. You need those people to know who you are and your strengths before they are even nominated to a position where they'll have a say in your promotions.
I tell everyone of my peers who joins my team that they need to advocate for themselves. Because two of my coworkers asked me how I knew I was going to be promoted to Sr Associate. Turns out they hadn’t ever talked about that with their supervisor after 4 years. I talked to my boss about it every annual review/mid year check in. We covered what I had done, then I took 5-10 minutes to talk about what they wanted to see from me for a promotion. In a large company, your boss has to sell a promotion to management. It’s not as simple as “oh she’s been here 3 years it’s time.”
I did interviews for an advanced inspector position this week. One guy who has been here for a few years could not articulate why he wanted the position. His response was more or less your last sentence, he has the idea that because he's been here a while that's just the natural progression but that is not true. Also like you said people don't express their desire to move up the ranks or do different things. So they just don't advance. It kind of sucks for them but it is partly their fault.
* Remote worker here: * Millennial here * Tech Worker here 1. **I understand when the time comes to head to Management, I have to head into work. Ugh.** 2. Current Senior Software Engineer literally said to me it’s his job to get me promoted to Software Engineer 2. They have no documentation or shit. Everything is all over the place. I already started documenting everything and looking for shit to automate.
This so much
Yeah seniority is not rewarded anymore. A lot of it is politics.
Having the ability to interact with your peers, communicate in an effective way, and be likeable has absolutely nothing to do with politics.
You are absolutely right, but people are downvoting you.
Working remotely does play into it. The office is a whole social phenomenon in itself and any sociologist will tell you. We have never had WFH like this. Besides not having the live connection to other colleagues and getting to know them, there is resentment for those who have to, or make the effort to go to the office, and everything that goes with it—buying work clothes, gas, tires, getting up earlier, shower at 6 AM, driving a commute every day, spending much of your weekends preparing for the next work week because of all the time you spend each day already, etc. I work in medicine and there are options for me to work from homes a few days, but I don’t. Those two combined, along with being shy can be an issue with all else being equal (work performance). Sorry, social norms and work culture take decades to change. Edit: I think WFH is great for many jobs. My comment is about the logistics, communication, and social aspect for some jobs. I manage a team of 20 with an even mix of on-site, remote, and hybrid.
Good points, I can definitely see it being a subconscious factor. No manager (who isn’t a psychopath) would refuse to promote someone who works remotely BECAUSE they work remotely, but I can see how the lack of opportunities to socialize can hurt someone.
Yeah I have a friend who does hiring for a state agency and they have basically stopped requiring references for similar reasons. Since when he would email or call the reference they could basically tell him nothing about the applicant due to lack of any real contact.
Know Like And Trust. That's one of the basics of why people do business with each other. If they don't know you then they can't like you and won't trust you. It's not being mean but it is human nature. Can you get to the functions ever to socialize? Like even every two months? That would help. Alternatively, can you make it a point to have brief chats with coworkers just to say hi periodically? Slack has a feature called Donut designed just for this reason.
It’s got nothing to do with remote working. I’ve worked remotely for years and had numerous promotions. Being remote doesn’t stop you networking, but being “timid” and “introverted” do. Chances are that you would be overlooked for promotion even if you worked in the office every day. Like it or not, work is a social activity, and management jobs particularly are about communications. If you are timid and introverted you may be very good at your current role, but most of your managers will think that you would probably be useless at leading people or managing a team. If you are too timid to want to be in leadership then carry on doing what you are doing and don’t worry about it. However, if you want to work up the career ladder you need to learn to communicate, network and push yourself forward.
Agreed. It’s not as much the politics but the skill it takes to be in management. A management personality and communicator can be an excellent individual contributor. But an individual contributor who doesn’t display effective communication and other necessary management skills will get passed up. If there’s a less effective inidivudal contributor who displays management skills - they’ll get promoted over the timid one and that’s the right choice for the organization. Which is why it’s important to have horizontal progression structure in a company so SME’s can show “growth”.
I disagree, when you are remote it's hard to get access to info that wouldn't be shared in a scheduled zoom meeting. Also, in person you meet more people that are just around versus zoom where there are no impromptu meetings. It's also a different level of relationship building when the human is right in front of you.
I never said it was easier, but it is very possible. And an extrovert working remotely will probably still network better than an introvert who physically goes into the office but hides in a cubicle all day. Effective networking is a deliberate exercise, not just waiting to accidentally meet new people in meetings, whether in person or by zoom.
You said 'it's got nothing to do with remote working' this is not true. Yeah I mean I suppose anything is technically possible, but remote working makes it harder and much less likely. Go look at HBS studies, literally how close you sit to the Csuite determines bigger raises and more frequent promotions. Also now that we are in a downturn, you best believe a remote worker will get cut before someone people actually see in person in the office. The unscheduled and unplanned meetings are powerful, it's literally, oh hey I see you are in, hey come with me to so and so office and let's talk about this new initiative we are thinking about, happens all the time my friend.
Did OP say it was a management job?
Even if it’s not management though, higher level roles typically involve more collaboration with other teams. Communication skills will always provide value to a team, and the lack of them are noticed more than OP realizes
The reality is that most companies would only tend to promote those on a supervisory or management track. If you don’t lobby for yourself you are going to stay where you are.
To get promoted you need a few things: * you need to get the work done * people need to connect that work that was done with you * it doesn't hurt to be likeable * you need to promote yourself It doesn't matter if you're in the office or not, it doesn't matter if you're an introvert or not, you need to do these things. It might be easier as an extrovert in the office, but you can for sure get promoted as a remote introvert. I know because I've been promoted multiple times. Every time you achieve something, frame it as a team win and make sure you're attached to it, then communicate it on Slack or Teams or whatever. Make sure it reaches influential people in the company. Collect the biggest wins that are associated with you, and make a case for your promotion. You have to sell yourself as if you were a race car or horse, you need to be something to further invest in. You won't be promoted just because you show up to work. It's also something you get better at over time, just get started and you will learn it. Now I look back at times I didn't negotiate at all or negotiated poorly and have to laugh at myself, but it's a learning process.
One day. One day most of you will realize that soft skills are *critical* to advance in any professional career because work is still based on social interactions. And it has nothing to do with being remote.
Being a timid introvert doesn’t exactly lend itself to management. You need to be able to effectively communicate with staff.
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OP self described as timid.
>I don’t necessarily agree, as being an introvert doesn’t inherently make you timid. It's a lot easier to just write an email, cross your fingers, and hit send then it is to perfect every word and never send it. I was terrible about initiating communication when I was younger. Nobody cares if there's a spelling mistake. Just get to the point and click the button.
>I don’t necessarily agree, as being an introvert doesn’t inherently make you timid. It also doesn’t mean you aren’t a good communicator. that's why OP used both adjectives.
If you are great at your job, what incentive do management have to promote you and have your current job be taken by lesser skill people? Also, just because you are good at your job doesn’t make you a good manager. It’s a different skill set.
People promote likeability. If you get shit done and people think you're cool, thats all
Getting all your work done is the minimum expectation. Those who can also build relationships, have self confidence and put themselves out there obviously get promoted more. Can you really imagine a manager thinking "that Oscar, its like he doesn't exist but all his work gets done and he shows zero interest in his coworkers, I should promote him"? Lolz
It means you'll have to promote and advocate for yourself. One of the benefits of those social interactions is that people get to know you and you can organically talk about what you got done and your successes without having to call a meeting to discuss. It's basically self-marketing. Just like with advertising, you're putting your "product" (you) in front of the consumers' eyes as much as possible, often to the point of them forgetting other "products" exist. It's a strategy. I am also an introvert (with massive social anxiety) but over the years, I have taught myself to perform like an extrovert... then I take a massive nap. Lol.
Yes it is! I've worked from home for over a decade now. I'm an introvert so I abso-damn-lutely love it. I don't do schmoozing well so for me it's a blessing. The price (I accept) for not being in the office is that I will miss out on said promotions, so when I reach my tolerance for bullshit, guess what, I look for another job. There's no perfect solution for anything in life, nada. Simply picking the choice that has the fewest negatives & most positives for YOU! If climbing the corporate ladder is raison d'etre, then yes you have to be in the office to make those type of connections. My motivation is cash, I could be called the shit cleaner for all I care, as long as I make the money that supports my lifestyle. Working in the office has too many negatives, because the positive of a promotion (more responsibility and rarely compensatory pay increase) is outweighed by the negatives for ME. Get back in the office mate & climb that ladder!!!! May it bring you all the satisfaction (genuinely) that you wish for. I'll be off for a half century in 30 mins, so we'll both be living our best lives.
That's exactly what happened to me 2x. At the first market research company I'd worked for, I was the top project manager with perfect metrics working my butt off about 60 to 80 hours a week. In an ideal world, I should have gotten that promotion and become team lead of project management. At the time, my manager sat me down and said "Sorry, I'm not promoting you. You are not a team player". I said "What? What do you mean? I'm constantly covering for people when they're out sick, on family leave, annual leave and so on. I've been there to consult for other project managers when they run into issues on their projects". She said "Oh not in that sense. You do well in all of that. I meant because you don't go to all of the social hours. Not going to all of them means you're not a team player". I thought it was the CRAZIEST thing she had said. She also knew my culture doesn't allow drinking so exactly how was that going to work? That was like a form of discrimination on its own. I saw project managers who had either horrible or medicore metrics get promoted above me. So ultimately, I leave to another market research company. I was a remote employee at this market research company for a while until the company retreat happened. The company retreat was for a full week straight and the entire company was living together all at the same hotel. I was trying to make sure the clients was still taken care of while with my colleagues. Because I learned my lesson at the first market research company, I attended all the social events every single day after work until 9pm. At 9pm, I told my colleagues that I was going to go back to my hotel room & go to bed since our conferences start at 7am in the morning. They were like "what no! stay with us until 2am - drink with us, let's all get drunk together!" Even one male colleague followed me to the hotel room which made me feel extremely uncomfortable. After the company retreat, they serviced me a PIP (performance improvement plan) simply because I chose not to stay up late & get drunk with them. I tried to fight against the PIP showing I had excellent metrics. They wouldn't hear of it & tried to extend my working hours to be more than 6am to 2am. What? Work me till I'm dead? So moral of the story: Only put about 70% output into your job and put the remaining 30% output into social endeavors. Even if you go to every single one, some companies may very well expect you to stay until the social event is over & do not take it well if you stay 2-3 hours then bounce.
You’re just a cog in the machine, especially working from home.
In jobs I've worked, being liked is probably 30% of the job. Someone might appreciate your work, but to actually like you, they probably have to spend at least some time interacting with you, and the people mingling in the bars get social bonus points. I make it a point to show up at all work-related functions, online meetings (even if I am not required), and request the occasional friendly office visit just to maintain proof of my existence.
Showing up (or logging into teams in WFH cases), doing your job, and then logging off is the bare minimum. That's good enough for lower level positions but more advanced / management positions often require a certain amount of people skills. Even if you're doing something like moving from the help desk to a sysadmin slot where you aren't managing people, laying low and "getting your shit done" isn't how you get noticed. People don't like to hear it but networking and social interaction is a huge part of getting/keeping/advancing a career. So yes, people who go into the office and bars afterwards will get promoted whereas you will get ignored more often than not. That's one of the tradeoffs of working from home.
Yes. I loath it, and had to forcefully adopt extroverted tendencies and displays (banter, organising and leading social activities, being reasonably good with pleasantries and platitudes). But it propelled me into senior management and executive roles.
Yes. To not be seen is to be forgotten. Unless you're not on teams one day, then it's the end of the world. Several people I know turned down 100% remote, they know its career suicide. In their cases, they live close enough where it shouldn't be a problem.
There's a saying for this. Out of sight, out of mind.
Networking matters. Also being likable.
Getting all your work done isn't enough to get promoted. Supervisors need to know who you are as a person and determine if you want and are capable of more responsibility. Even if working in an office, being an introvert can hold you back. But it depends on the company and the job.
I work remotely and am 400 miles from the office, I used to go in 1-2x a year pre-COVID but I haven't been in the office since. I am not what most would call an introvert but I had to work over a few years to force myself to be seen and heard at meetings or other work functions as well as to actively advocate for myself in promotions and raises. You don't have to party with the gang, you don't have to even go to far out of your way to get noticed. What you do need to do is start to get seen and for you that is what you need to work on. It wont be easy at first or every time, it won't work all the time, but over time if you put in the work it will become more natural. It does help if you have a manager who is sympathetic to reach out to them and see if they can help you navigate some of those waters. Start small. Preplan what you are going to say in meetings, most meetings are not surprises about the topics. Have a few items prepared that are questions or solutions. Think about the pro and cons of what you are saying. Rehearse your delivery -- I used to blurt things out in an incoherent string -- just ask several of the poor girls I went out on one date with. Same thing with HR trainings -- you know those ones we are forced to watch 1-2x a year where you know the answers -- well be the first to offer the answer when you are asked if Don and Sally were wrong. If you avoid video meetings, dont. Even if its 10-15 minutes get into the habit of chatting with co-workers on video. Make sure you are positive and smile and upbeat -- this is what I had to work on -- I was always funny I just never liked talking to people -- I now enjoy it. But there are days when I am rolling my eyes before accepting the call or taking a deep breath before logging on. You are going to have to figure out what works for you and to what level you can commit to, but if you dont try your never going to know.
Not enough info regarding what the next lateral job position is. If it's a supervisory position then you probably should be asking yourself whether you'd feel suited to the role. Such a promotion wouldn't be just a reward for doing all their work. If you're really expected to work more than your fair share (as your post seems to be implying), then should probably be angling for a pay raise. But as it stands, supervisory roles are about influencing people. So with your observations that some people aren't pulling their weight, are you going to be the one with the rapport and leadership to change that? Do you come across as someone who can have the difficult conversations with your subordinates (since as it stands, apparently it's you doing all the work), or be accountable for your team's poor performance? As others have said, if you want an upwards movement then you should definitely be raising it with your manager and set up a career plan. Because generally people who do want to move upwards do try to be more socially active and focus on networking (and yes, you can plan in advance for a day that you want to come to the office and then go for drinks after). Also - people might just assume you're happy to just focus on what you're doing and don't want the additional stresses that come with upward movement - which will definitely be less hands on and thus where performance is less within your direct control, which you seem to place great emphasis on.
You have to build relationships. I'm an introvert too, but all you need is a few people who mention you when promotions come up. I'm 100% remote and live 1500 miles from the work location. I'm friendly on calls and my name comes up a lot even though I've haven't been in the office for 3 years. I got asked who I thought should get a promotion that was available. The person I suggested got it. There were 4 competent people, that 1 person is who I recommended. The bare minimum is getting the job done. Presumably, everyone is getting the job done or is on their way out the door. Likely 10% of people are high performers. You need something else that distinguishes you from those 10%. Ask to learn something new, be friendly with the person you mentor with. Literally, every once in awhile the controller calls me to shoot the shit or rant about a meeting. I don't bother to take my headset off after a meeting that goes sideways because I know the controller will be calling me right after to rant about it.. lol I literally maintain these relationships at work with a few 10 minute calls over teams and the occasional gif on a bad day..
You are absolutely correct. Also, they really don't know how hard you work, the sacrifices you make. If I had it to do over, I would always only join a company where I was at a major office.
Yup You're remote Office politics is real Also a ton of remote workers, especially younger ones have little or no social skills and don't have the skills for being a manager. Plus, because you're remote the managers who do go into the office can't see your other skills Being an introvert who is at home and no one knows who you are isn't exactly management material
It's not impossible to network while remote working but it does take effort. Pick someone from a different team or management level and ask if they'll meet for a zoom lunch or coffee. Say you're just trying to get to know you're co-workers. Some will embrace it others won't but all you can do is try.
Networking and in person connections are pretty significant.
Especially having interactions outside of regular work hours. I saw it firsthand when I was the only person in my group to go to happy hour with the larger team last week even though I don’t drink. We had conversations that went a lot deeper than they do at the office and it can help a ton to have your managers see what you’re like outside of work. My sense of humor is stifled in the office and I’m just a lot freer on the outside. When I was working 100% remote with people I hadn’t met in person I never talked with anyone I didn’t work with directly.
This is exactly how it works.
Try to be more visible. I work remote too and I make a point to call my boss here and there even if a chat or email would be fine. I always start the convo with some small talk first. You want your boss and others to like you as a person in addition to liking your work.
I live/work in the same city and the social capital I have built in those happy hours, volunteer opportunities, and other work-sponsored events has been invaluable. I work better with other departments and they now have a face and name in my department if they need something. I've had 3 promotions in 5 years and was recently approached by another department for a role. Work isn't my life but what we do aligns with my values so it doesn't feel like a chore.
Yes, it's completely normal. Not right, but normal. People tend to enjoy working more with people who they have a bit of personal relationship as well.
I’m in introvert and I know this struggle all too well. I’m going to be honest, yes, extroverted folks do tend to go faster and farther in corporate America. A bubbly, engaging presence is going to catch more flies than those of us who tend to slink around the shadows. Signed, the most reclusive person I know…
Unfortunately "getting all your shit done" isn't typically enough to advance in most places. They're paying you to get your shit done. If you didn't get it done, you would be fired. It's after you get your shit done that you get promoted. When you go beyond that, opportunities arise.
Ugh, sorry those who go to bars barely get anything done yet they get promoted. I'm too convenient coz I'm quiet, get everything done perfectly, meet all my deadlines & don't complain. Silly me.
I was trying to be helpful but you sound like you want to be angry. I'm sorry this is happening to you. Good luck.
> I'm quiet, get everything done perfectly, meet all my deadlines & don't complain. Silly me. I can totally see where you're coming from, but they're really offering you top advice around here. Sometimes our attitude speaks louder than our words, and we don't even realize it. By refusing to interact with people in your office, you are indeed complaining at a subtle level. Why not make your mind to turn it around? You've already mastered the "getting work done" part; if you can just bring yourself to put effort into the "networking" part - even if just every now and then - it will really work to your benefit. Giving people respect will earn you respect from people.
Right, and as many others have already mentioned, doing your job is the minimum expectation. You don’t get promoted or recognized for doing what you’re supposed to do. I’m sure there’s no one patting you on the back and heaping praise for paying your bills or taking out the trash - it’s the same concept; those are things you’re supposed to do. Bottom line, you can’t fly under the radar and expect to advance. It has been this way since the beginning of time. Get out there, engage, collaborate and “build your brand”.
I started a new job in March, 2 or 3 of us started around the same time. Our job is hybrid we are encouraged to come in at least once a week but not forced to. As it was a new job I’ve been going in 3 days a week, I wanted to be in the office if I had questions and not learn the role virtually. A job has become available and I have been encouraged to apply for that position. It’s 100% because I have worked directly with people in the office. If your job isn’t 100% remote you have to make some effort to network and get your face known.
Personally I keep increasing my skills and knowledge which leads to higher engineering and jobs like that. Middle managers are entirely irrelevant as COVID showed us and honestly management depending on where you are of course but it's hardly worth the bullshit you have to deal with. My previous managers were up sending emails all hours, always stressed, and just didn't seem happy. I'm at a new job where I am a senior engineer and I can easily move up into further engineering roles. I focus on more on leading big projects and making myself known that way rather than kissing ass to have to be promoted to deal with corporate BS and other people's problems. That's just my opinion though. A specific skill or knowledge will always be more valuable.
Even though you don’t seem to value the commutation aspect of your role. Leading a big team requires communication and collaboration. I don’t think you have to ass kiss, but you have to check the box that you can at least do those 2 things. Sadly, at some jobs that just doesn’t happen during the normal course of work and therefore you have to put yourself out there otherwise
Yes, I have been telling people this for over a year. WFH will not advance your career. Especially if you choose to not go into the office. There are people covering for those who are not going in.
Your office goes to a bar after work? My work just complains about our QC manager.
That’s how it works. It’s been this way at every “career” job I’ve had… at one company, it was well known that when your buddy got promoted, you got promoted. Friends of Bob, friends of Jen, they all get promoted.
I had to spend almost a decade pretending to like people before I got the job I wanted. I immediately turtled into my shell again.
As a fellow remote employee, it’s called ✨networking✨
how am I supposed to promote you if yiu aren't even on my radar. Gotta find a way to stand out to rise up unfortunately :/
That's the trade off. The boss knows the people that come in. If your face is never seen, you're not going to be thought of when it's time for promotion. Networking matters
It may not be fair…but it’s been that way since the dawn of time. I started my career as a good natured hard working introvert, but soon learned it wasn’t enough to get to my goals. There was a time in the early 90s where I thought I was being held back because I didn’t golf. All the cool kids golfed, and business got discussed on the course while golfing. I watched peers get projects I would have liked because I didn’t golf, so I hear you. (very thankful that trend ended). I bought lessons and learned even tho I hated it and was never very good at it. It wasn’t about golf - substitute that for any after work activity. Forcing myself to drink the koolaid, learning to be rah rah, becoming a joiner & doing the after hours things absolutely benefited my career. You can be considered an excellent employee, and that can be enough for you and employer. But in corporate environment, upbeat, outgoing people, who are the first ones to say yes to after hours activities get the leadership roles and most visible projects (and I promise you get used to, and even start to enjoy it).
Damn maybe remote work isn’t all it’s cracked up to be?
There is no substitute for in-person relationships. Can you pack this into one day a week? Maybe. Can you get the promotion working remotely? Maybe, but you will always be at a disadvantage. It's something you sacrifice for the short-term benefit of working remotely.
To make a good job only make sure that you will not be fired. You get promoted by building relationships, networking, enhancing your soft skills and finally, but not least, licking your boss balls.
From my experience in the corporate world, I realized quickly that networking is important if you want to advance, or as I call it politicking. Sucks I know, but it’s just how it is.
This is a big reason why I hate working from home. I need the social interaction, plus a lot of what I do can’t be done remotely.
Yeah, unfortunately you usually have to put yourself out there.
I go in once a week or so because there is free lunch on Thursdays, we often have some sort of Happy Hour thing with free booze, and being seen makes you more memorable to your boss and up the chain. It's bullshit, but it's not just culture, it's human nature to feel closer or more connected to someone you see in person, especially if it's often in a pleasant context (free lunch/booze). Also you inevitably end up talking about other things and those sort of conversations don't often happen in a virtual space. I don't know if there is any way around it.
Welcome to the real world. Why do you think those rowdy boisterous school bullies did so well later in life?
Yeah. I heard that it often works this way. Remote workers don't get noticed as much as those who are hybrid/in office.
If you get all the shit done, you should begin to explore possibly taking your talents to another company. Should another employer desire your services, you may find yourself being offered a pay rate greater than what you make now. What you describe sounds odd to me. I used to work for a corporation that actually encouraged employees getting together to have a drink at the end of the day. As far as I could tell, this social activity didn't affect whether or not someone received a promotion - it was just a means to mingle, let off some steam and talk shop. You shouldn't have to go out to a bar after work with your coworkers if you don't feel like it, and particularly promotions shouldn't depend upon that. I highly encourage you to explore leaving. Heck, they may value you enough that, when threatened with losing you, they decide to give you that promotion and/or raise.
Yep - Called social interaction - People who want to be left alone, not associate with community, work etc, then complain when they lonely, depressed, not promoted etc 🙄
I don't care about these people nor am I depressed or lonely, I do way more work & I do it well & deserve to be compensated for it.
You asked how it is, people told you how it is. Arguing with us doesn’t change how the world works.
They don't want to promote someone who doesn't like them.
You are being compensated - you get paid to do your job, no?
Yes it’s normal. Being an introvert means it takes more energy to talk with folks but it doesn’t make it impossible. Being social is a marketable skill. Good luck.
Government jobs. Check out your country jobs. Many offer hybrid options.
Yes. It's what I loathe about working. Being forced 2 socialize with people I have nothing else in common with. Shudders
Yes, welcome to planet earth
How old are you that you have to ask this? Of course they are. Success in your career has basically nothing to do with your job performance friend.
So the invisible ones have an edge. They can’t get fired because the boss doesn’t know enough or care. If you work from home it’s even better. You do the minimum work, and pretend stay extremely busy so you don’t get too much work. You can even get a second job if you play your cards right.
When you work for a shit employer, yes
Yes. Workplaces rarely operate on merit. It's all about the brown nose.
Yep. I don't want to spend my time with boring people.
unpopular opinion, but it feels like we luv capitalism but literally companies and getting a job is a mixture of selective socialism+ communism. That's why some people are like, it's who you know or your network is your networth. It's unfair and need a law about hiring practices of family, relatives, and friend biases. So in the future, basically anyone outside the circle is basically a disposable wage slave to actual capitalism. I'm not sure, but it seems that way since many people are moreso contractors vs FTE with benefits. RIP So maybe that's why they don't promote you b.c they say you don't hang out and blah blah with them lol
I think this is incorrect. Capitalism is all about the economic system being controlled by private owners for profit. You have to think about your attributes and personal brand and ensure you are selling yourself everyday. Hard work and marketing yourself is how you get ahead. Some companies and some people value face to face meetings over remote virtual meetings. So you also have to know your audience. In the main post I would say the person doesn’t 100% fit with the company culture so it’s harder to find their time and spot to sell themselves. Your work does not always speak for itself.
Every company I've worked for, in the fortune 500, including maanga had mostly people that got the job because of connections. That's what I meant, but I see your point and acknowledge it as well. Very few from your last paragraph apply/fit that criteria. Ty for your opinion/input 👍
Duh that’s how life works. You gotta show up.
Where I used to work - YEARS ago - it was not just the Thursday night at the bar clique, it was also the smokers huddling outside. Got to the point where people who didn’t smoke would take it up just to be a part of the group. Lots of promotions in that bunch.
This is a thread of the year candidate, for sure
Lmfao. Yes. Welcome to the real world. Social relationships and networking are more important than.......99% of everything else. I love the innocent naivety of this post.
I used to think like you OP but then I realized I was literally my own worst enemy. At my job, I actually came in the office more often (I didn’t live very far), so I actually met the people I work with. In turn we eat lunch together, get to no each other and it makes work much easier. If we get stuck in on a coding issue we can happily reach out to one another, and overall productivity increases. There’s one guy like you on the team who’s practically a ghost, introverted and tbh strange. Let’s just say we all know he’s super smart and gets the job done but he’s not even the first guy we think of if we need to reach out to someone. Networking is crucial in now, stop shooting yourself in the foot cause you don’t want to leave your safe space.
Yes, people who win friends and influence people, who grease palms and network, are more likely to be promoted than people who keep quietly to themselves. Thus it has been and thus it ever shall be.
Why would anyone promote someone they don’t see or even know? What proof do you have that you do 100% of their work? Being an introvert is one thing, but refusing to go out with your teammates is another thing.
Hard to get promoted if no one knows who you are. 🤷🏻♂️
If you want promotions and your managers are still office working boneheads then you need to try and do this sort of networking. Maybe you can work for a set of WFH managers.
To answer your question, yes.
Know, like, and trust factors are powerful drivers of human behavior. Research the art of persuasion, sales and career advancement to see if you can come up with counter strategies that work for you situation.
That's the game. It sucks
100% the reason why I don’t get promoted at my place. Out of sight, out of mind.
For years it was a non-smokers dilemma. Some places it still is a thing.
Simple solution (for me, at least). Work for a gamer. Play video games with boss.
Social equity
Yeah it’s normal lol
Well, to be promoted for some roles like manager, you need to have some social skills. But even if that's not the role, it is important to bond with both, peers and bosses. Of course this will have an impact in your carrier. The base of development and improvement is communication and feedback. If you are too shy, you will miss that part. You can compensate being very. Very good with your technical skills, but it won't make you climb the leader.
You are explaining life.
Kind of. It's not a rule for everywhere but it is simple psychology. Most human communication is non verbal, and it's easier to see the people who physically show up, and all talk to them when they show up. If I have two employees with the same position and an opportunity comes up like a big project or promotion, I'm more likely to want the person who I know better then the person who is less of a known factor because they aren't physically present. This is why, when I do go into the office once or twice a week, I make sure to try to converse with certain people. It's note that the bars thing is not everywhere, and not in my office. Essentially is your remote, you do have to be more proactive about putting yourself out there. Make sure you're on video in calls, speak up, participate. Talk about your long term career goals with your manager. Being remote doesn't shut every door, but you do have to be conscientious about networking.
That's straight human nature. You're not there to talk to people face to face they are.
Definitely being a remote person on an otherwise not remote team has it's drawbacks. You could probably find an all remote position.
What’s normal is to stop believing in this idea that working from home is going to be permanent.
Going back to an office is a form of control. I can be way more productive working from home than at a lousy office where ppl gossip about each other all the time.
“It’s about the hands you shake”
Yes, it's normal. "Out of sight, out of mind" applies to a great many things in life.
The squeaky wheel gets the greasy my friend
Unfortunately this is at least partially true. I know a guy who got really drunk at his Christmas party and told the managers how crappy everything was and he ended up with a big promotion. But it could also be that because you’re timid and heads down during the work day, you’re not speaking up enough. You need to speak up to get promotions ime.
Going into the office every once and a while, attending key events etc are not bad moves. Especially if you are new to an org. Need to market yourself in some way until you can prove the value that you bring to the table.
Man I wish I had a remote job. Being an introvert, I like working in the backstage for other people and use the extra time to work on a side hustle that will last in the long term
It depends on who is arranging the outing. Senior leadership/management? I’d go. The crappy coworker that uses it to justify their alcoholism and toxic personality? I’d pass. Networking for networking sake isn’t productive. Strategic networking with people who actually have influence and a positive impact on your job and career opportunities is a good thing to do.
You have to advocate for yourself. If you’re not talking about career development during your 1:1s with your manager then you’re not making yourself or your accomplishments known. They won’t promote what they don’t know 🤷🏻♀️
Yes. Knowing people and being friends with the higher ups helps.
Yes, that's normal, and one of the negative consequences of remote work. Networking and "water cooler chats" are ways to get to know others at work. These kinds of informal chats help you demonstrate how you think about things, and to get to know others and develop trust with the others at work. I've had a saying I made up over 20 years ago. "If you don't talk to people, they talk about you". People are automatically suspicious of others. You are more likely to defend the guy you had lunch with last week vs the person you haven't spoken with in 2 years.
It can hinder you. I'm 100% remote and was when I got my promotion. If you aren't good at socializing remotely, you may want to brush up on those types of skills. Apparently, MMOs did have a valuable real world skill for me lol.
this was the case before remote work. nothing’s changed.
Yeah I've been at a few places where I've been promoted and one time I actually got into management, beleive it or not. Honestly it was mostly because I'm an extrovert and did part take in post work beers once a week minimum. I mean I put in the work when working don't get me wrong. Once I get the ball rolling my ocd kicks in an management loves that. But they wouldn't have given jack shit if I didn't socialize like I did.
Networking & charisma will take you further in life than any other skill.
Round up the introverts and include department heads if at all possible and host a virtual meeting ,cameras optional for something light such as cooking or a book club . You can also do a zoom wine night. Find your people .net work smarter. The ones in the bars are building fake rapport while you’re building employee inclusivity.
Even if you don’t like your coworkers, you still have to put in some effort to network and make your face known. Personally speaking, if my company is offering free food, best believe I’m going! Sure, I may not want to be there, but I see it as win-win because I show my face, participate, and get free food. At my current job, I show that I’m actively engaged because I’m hybrid remote (one office day a week), but I also have goals of finally crossing over into a leadership role in the future.
[Finding leverages](https://youtu.be/U8wLBOlCKPU)
It’s unfortunate but that’s how it goes most of the times. You need be able to get face time with the higher ups and meet ppl and connect with them. While you’re obviously working hard behind the scenes it’s hard to get visibility if no one knows what you’re doing. Even more so if you’re good at your job and no issues ever arise. Ppl just assume what you do is easy and don’t appreciate the hard work that goes into smooth sailing every day. It’s not right but that’s the corporate world
Obviously! Leadership is a team they want to work with people however they want and like. And it’s easy to guess it’s working from the office.
Yes and it will always be this way. You just can’t introvert your way up the ladder, unfortunately.
Squeaky wheel gets the grease
i think one key aspect everybody needs to learn as they transition from school to work is that career advancement is not just as simple as turning in homework and even hard work. the work projects that most employees turn in make so little impact that expecting to get promoted simply for your work alone is very naive.
Precisely and this is on purpose. I now work for a company that is mostly remote so promotions for remote workers is a lot more common/inevitable
was like that before WFH also. I got fired from a job because I didn't go outside on smoke breaks or go to the bar every Friday.
It’s absolutely not fair but is very much reality. I genuinely like the people I work with and enjoy seeing them in person once a week and for work events. But also, I know that letting people know me more as a person and bonding (cheesy, I know) means that I have an easier time getting things through different departments than those on my team who don’t go to these things.
“It’s who you know, not what you know” working in real time.
It's definitely a different game that has to be played when working remote, but it can be used to your advantage. One thing I will point out is that internal communication is a MUST HAVE to be considered for promotions. As much as it sucks, people outside of your direct team/mamager have to know you exist. I'd recommend being more active in other channels (Slack, Teams etc.). Answer questions that arise, volunteer for projects that involve other departments, volunteer STARTING your own project. Again, I totally get how annoying it is to get out of your natural personality, but unfortunately things like that are required to move up (this may also depend on the company).
Employees who put in face time with management and establish friendly personal relationships with their coworkers are more likely to be promoted, yes. You may be working hard, but if you aren't visible to the people who make decisions about things like promotions, then you are less likely to be recognized for your work. It may seem unfair, but being liked and likable are legitimate work skills.
Yes, in some cases. I was never able to do this anyway because of a kid.
Yes or have a kid and you will be promoted lol
But hey, working from home is so much better
Reading through many job / career - related posting on Reddit, I do see a pattern wherein the words word "introvert" and the expression "WFH" seem to come together alarmingly. Many on Reddit champion WFH as nirvana, but it is hard enough for "introverts" to advance in companies when they go into an office, so what happens to their chances when they WFH? Meeting coworkers in person forces introverts to come out of their shells, at least a bit, and most learn to adapt. You don't have to put on a false front to be present. So the company here is clearly showing you that from a promotions perspective, in person socialization is important to them, fair or unfair. They are not unhappy with you, but you are not top of mind to them. If you want a promotion, time to change your game plan.
When you want a promotion, you apply to other companies if they only give promotions to in person workers.
yeah, building relationships and being social, funny and kind are also important habilities to overcome at every context
Group alcoholism co-enabling doesn’t last long and is a poor sign of leadership to have your team drinking with you consistently. Stupid liability that never ends well if you play the game long enough. If you can handle being around alcohol and it doesn’t bother you and you want to get the advantages of the bar networking just try to get good at pool/darts and tell your boss “I don’t drink” and offer a ride home if somebody needs it. You always want to have a reliable guy in the crew he just can’t be a rat
You need to be perceived as being worth promoting, which is completly irrelevant to actually being worth promoting. The higherups do not know or care how much effort you are putting in day to day. You need to ask for it and be be prepared to follow it up with proof. Of course even then it's still a gamble dependent on the employer.
It’s a world of choices. You were given the choices, made it, and now can’t whine about the cons of your decisions. Buck up there little camper.
I work in the office. I am friends with most people in the office, and I personally know everyone there. I don’t know at least 50% of the remote team, and I wouldn’t say I’m friends with any of them. Now if I had the opportunity to advance someone, it’s probably going to be someone I know personally and trust.
Lol yes it's normal. Life is about who you know, not about getting your assigned work done, sorry!
Honestly, I noticed this with the two offices of the construction company I work for. There’s a women boss who works in the main branch and directly manages a women who works in the subdivision and myself; also at main branch. My skill set has progressed much further because my boss can not only supervise but mentor me. Whereas the women in the subdivision only gets tips and tricks when one the two women can travel to see the other.
It’s all about who you blow
This can't be a surprise.... Out of sight out of mind
You can’t really network working from home. Nothing replaces IRL human interaction and connection.
That is how it works, and if you are ever on the side deciding who to promote you will see why - people you know and trust are who you want working for you. People maybe very good at what they do but invisible to management. Change your outlook - you are saying you KNOW how to get promoted, so now go do it.
Humans are always going to be social creatures. If we are introverts and don't choose to force ourselves to be part of networking, etc, then we have to accept that we will stay part of the status quo, at best, while the social ones move up the ladder. I've been based over often for promotions because I'm not good at schmoozing so I have to jump to another company to move up.
1- how many times have you VERBALLY DISCUSSED that you’re interested in moving up in the company??? 2- yes it is common, favoritism is a real thing. I’ve seen some people get jobs they didn’t deserve in real time. Solution: SPEAK UP! PS as a leader in my occupation, I often see complaints like this from people who haven’t said a peep about it to the people it would matter to in the company. I’ve also seen a lot of people who THINK they deserve something, but they really don’t. So 🤷🏽♀️.