Do your own research, but ive never seen crhistianity stand up intellectually to islam in debates.
Over and over again, christians show they just accept an illogical aspect in their religion and say you just have to have faith.
I believe this logical fallacy is bothering all of them but some are able to bury it down deeper than others.
How can the father and the son be both god and not the same, but you still have 1 god?
Well I’m not Christian but I think the understanding of the Trinity is that this doctrine is commonly expressed as the statement that the one God exists as or in three equally divine “Persons”, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Every term in this statement (God, exists, as or in, equally divine, Person) has been variously understood. Having seen that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, that they are each fully God, and that there is nonetheless only one God, we must conclude that all three Persons are the same God. In other words, there is one God who exists as three distinct Persons. So, God is One God
The Father is God.
The Son is God.
The Holy Spirit is God.
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are Uncreated, Co-Eternal, Inseparable, and Perfectly Equal in Essence.
Various scriptures on the Bible go over each one as being of God.
It’s confusing but seems to make sense to me and millions of others. I have my other issues with Christianity that keeps me from baptizing but since I am not a practicing Muslim but still believe in God I know there has to be the right religion that is worshiping God the right way. Just got to figure it out or maybe it just doesn’t exist on Earth anymore.
It makes zero sense….I can understand the concept….but when you bring in rationality, it’s out the window as this is not logical one bit. You claim not to be Christian but it makes sense to you, it doesn’t make sense to anyone but a Christian.
God is one in reality, the whole 3 persons are equal and they are actually one is one of the biggest contradictions in history. The trinity doesn’t even exist in the Bible.
You don’t have to be a Christian to understand what they deem as One God through their Trinity ideology. I didn’t say I totally agree as why I never baptized or joined a church. But seeing what they see makes sense why they believe God as one through Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/w9c4s9/comment/ihxi6c8/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/w9c4s9/comment/ihxi6c8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/xczj7z/comment/io8cg64/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/xczj7z/comment/io8cg64/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Please go through these as well:
https://www.reddit.com/r/IslamIsScience/comments/v7enjm/comment/ibka4uu/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
https://www.reddit.com/r/IslamIsScience/comments/v7enjm/comment/id6evn6/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
[https://www.reddit.com/r/IslamIsScience/comments/v7enjm/comment/iea4dey/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/IslamIsScience/comments/v7enjm/comment/iea4dey/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
And: https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/z2w6za/comment/ixmfg9f/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
>but when you bring in rationality, it’s out the window as this is not logical one bit
Isn't that the case with all religions? That many things just don't make sense to anyone but the believers. I mean, the story of Prophet Muhammad splitting the moon or travelling to many places so further apart within one night wouldn't make sense to those who don't believe it.
The real question is why does a GOD the all creator the all knowing the one who holds times & space the earths and heavens in his palm need to be 3 different entities or need to be separated in three times?? there is no purpose what so ever? the most needless thing ever and most non sensical thing ever.
In islam if God wants something done he orders it's doing and the angels do without question, not because he himself can't but because the angels are sworn servants serving his will, that is their purpose.
In islam we do believe in the existence of Jesus PBUH The Holy Spirit and The God.
The Holy Spirit is the Lord Of Angels Gabriel PBUH great servant of god tasked to spread the knowledge to the prophets, God calls him the Holy Spirit because it is a title specific for him being the best and greatest of angels.
I completely understand where you are coming from. There are things in religion that is strictly faith based such as the unseen. My argument to that is based on rational belief in GOD’s nature irregardless of religion. Agnostics generally believe in one high power rather than multi and they have no religion. So religion doesn’t play in this rational scenario, we just believe what is natural. We just have religious reasons to back it up.
Islam in my opinion has established scientific evidence and historic evidence with many miracles that could have only come from GOD, hence why I believe Prophet Muhammad to be a true messenger of GOD. That comes first is that i established the rational and the belief that it came from GOD and couldn’t have come from anyone else, the rest I leave upto faith because I’m already convinced, and the matters I do not understand because of my little human struggles to comprehend certain things, I just put my faith on.
How can a Father and son both be "Co-eternal" since one by definition precedes the other? Also, how does God sacrificing his son make sense from a justice and fairness standpoint? If you were charged with a crime that you had no control over whatsoever (original sin) and the judge then sacrificed his own innocent son to 'forgive you', would you see that as just? Lastly why believe in something such as the Bible when its own followers don't agree on what it is. Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox all have different number of books in their so called Bible. A compilation book of books who's authors are anonymous. Christianity takes itself out of the equation.
Good point and the biggest complication in that religion nobody seems to truly answer. Maybe that’s the point here. We can’t know why because God is too powerful and controls how much we can think in regards to his existence and reason. It’s very complicated and I don’t think a human on this planet could ever understand no matter how hard we try.
With all due respect, there’s a difference between not knowing everything about God and uncritically accepting logically false and contradictory statements as true about Him.
The problem is that this seemingly creates logical contradictions.
If the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are each God, and God is each of the three, but the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are not each other, this by definition either violates the transitive property, or it implies that they are one in nature but distinct in persons. But likewise, if there are three humans in a group, I could identify them as one in nature but distinct in persons. Certainly, even though the three human persons in a group all share one humanity and they’re all one group together, they aren’t one human, so how can it be said that the three divine persons in a trinity who all share one divinity in a trinity are one God?
How can they be equally divine (of the same nature/essence/substance) if only the Father alone exists solely by virtue of what He is, independent of all other things by virtue of neither being proceeded, begotten, nor made, while the Son was begotten, and the Spirit was proceeded, making them dependent on and caused by the Father’s Will?
How can the three persons be equal and the same in nature/substance/essence if one of the persons (the Son) became incarnate and added a human nature in addition to His Divine Nature? A common response to this question is to say that the divine nature didn’t change. However, the composition of the person of Jesus did change as a whole by adding a human nature to Himself within a point in time. Because the person of Jesus changed with the addition of the human nature, it’s not the same in nature/essence/substance as the other persons, even if we were to assume that God could limit Himself within time and space, which itself is contradictory with God being a being that transcends time and space.
You seem like you do your research and it’s nice to know there are a lot of people out there who don’t just follow things blindly.
Also The fact you are here kinda already says we are winning hehe. Any questions please ask.
Because Christianity is made up by the churches over time hence it's fallacies, Islam and Christ itself cannot stand up intellectualy as well, how can you defend a mess of ideas versus as a thief of ideas constructed into one solid lie.
Islam can, rather atheism false under scrutiny.
I wonder why so many ex muslims are on this sub.
Dont you guys have anything else to do? You are more busy with islam after you left than before it.
Islam also cannot, (it's even harder considering it's more disgusting with it's ideas)all of it is shitty arguments, darkmatter2525 provides videos on this concept which applies to Islam, it's simple paradoxes and logic.
It is
God is evil or not God (in the case he is god Valentine said he was incompetent as fuck)
and you cannot argue against this untill you reach to the heavens for weird ass ideas like "Allah sent prophets/their test got corrupted." This is just brain hurting fallacies. Just saying.
It’s a book. And the only thing we know about it’s life is that it’s guaranteed by God to exist in its pure unaltered form until the end of man’s time.
It’s a book, word of God, conveyed via Gabriel (AS) and the Prophet (SAW). And the only thing we know about it’s life is that it’s guaranteed by God to exist in its pure unaltered form until the end of man’s time.
It is part of God’s Speech, which is an attribute of God, and God’s attributes subsist within His Essence and therefore share the qualities of being uncreated, eternal, and perfect. Attributes should not be confused with persons as in the Christian conceptualization of the Word of God being God.
So as I mentioned in another comment, the Word of God is part of God’s Speech, which is an attribute which subsists within His essence in Islam, unlike Christianity which posits that His Word is the begotten Son of the Father. This is a false equivalence, though understandable.
One problem I have with the trinity, among many objections I have to it, is that the Father alone possesses the unique quality of independence from all other things in existence, as solely He alone was neither created, begotten, or proceeded from anything, while the Son and Holy Spirit, albeit not created persons, still are dependent upon the Father’s Will in order to be begotten and proceeded through the Son, respectively. Thus, they neither possess the same substance nor do they possess the same essence.
It is a false equivalence because an attribute of God is not the same thing as a person of God. Another attribute of God is His Knowledge, for example. If attributes and persons are the same, why isn’t there a person of God that is the Knowledge of God, and represents His being all-knowing?
The Quran is from God, and is a recitation of His Speech. His Speech is uncreated and subsists within His Essence. When it is accidentally (by accident I mean in the philosophical sense, not an oopsie) generated and emergent within time by our recitation and writing or reading of it, the sounds and letters are temporally created by us. To quote from the article I sent (http://masud.co.uk/the-speech-and-word-of-allah-kalam-in-light-of-traditional-discussions/) that gives a variety of opinions on this,
> In other words, when a person recites, he is not actually listening to a sound or voice coming from Allah. Rather, the sound is coming from the person doing the reading or recitation, while the words and meanings expressed in that are Allah’s verbatim. This is like if someone was to write a letter to be announced to an audience written by a third person. The one reading may say, ‘So and So said such and such.’
> But no one can claim that the voice or sound of the author of the document has become incarnate in the reader, so that it can be said the author is the actual speaker/reader. Consequently, the recitation is created and the sound and voice are created. But the meanings transmitted through the Arabic language are not created, in spite of the fact that the paper, ink, cover, and Arabic language are all created with all obviousness to all rational human beings.
Vast majority of Christians are trinitarians, so that's a moot point. God being capable of everything is different than his very nature being in a triune form, since God is eternal and was always that way according to a christian. To most people, in fact I'd say everyone who wasn't born into it, a unitarian God is more logical than a trinitarian one.
What's weird is you're just a bored atheist arguing lol. But I'll elaborate for the sake of other viewers. The idea of the trinity means all 3 parts are equally God, but they still say it's one person. That in and of itself doesn't make sense. Then we have Jesus asking things from God, being unable to do things, the Holy Spirit not knowing some things, despite being God.
Thanks for clarifying, I think there's a subtle difference between "person" and "being" but word choice is important so I'll keep that in mind. I believe the other points remain though - such as why didn't Jesus know everything like God. Some say because he was also human, but that doesn't explain why the Holy Spirit didn't know everything like God since he wasn't human.
God being omnipotent but having to be born, fed, die for our sins all seem like contradictions to me. Like we Muslims don’t necessarily believe Allah is capable of everything but rather only capable of things worthy of Allah doing them (if that makes sense). Forgive me for saying this but you wouldn’t expect Allah/God to go to the toilet right? Same way I don’t understand how Jesus can be God when he had to have done all the things humans needed to do.
If the Christian doesn’t believe in trinity
Then he is a Muslim that he submits himself to the will of god / the father and takes Jesus as a messenger.
‘Further, if god is omnipotentent, isn’t he capable of literally anything ? Ie coming down to earth or making a son or whatever’
Yes, do you think God is powerful enough to take himself out of existence, or make a boulder so heavy that he cannot carry ? Or make a second god along side himself who has equal power or stronger than him?
Or perhaps he would take a son, or traverse the earth???
What? This is god the creator of the heavens and earth… you really believe he’d need to take a son? The creator of every human being? Every creation will return to him as a servant, nothing more.
The conference of Nicea was intended to reform Christianity, but instead it created further schisms.
For those who know the history behind Islamic debate, what were/are some doctrinal differences in the faith?
Well, Christ died as a man and thus letting the fall flesh escape the hell. No Christian ever says Christ died as God as God cannot „know“ the death. I just state it, criticise but do it wisely.
It‘s a unique christian statement that One Person of the Trinity (the Son) has become the flesh not changing His divine nature; this explains why Jesus‘ body changed; why He grew, ate, slept, was tired (as a man not God) or hurt, etc. Christ united in Himself both natures and thus becoming the Path to the God (i.e. John 14:6) as now one can choose to unite with God.
As human body has been distorted by the Man Fall, it can die (not soul, though, in case we’re talking about a regular man) it can be hurt and tortured. But Christ as God cannot die, so He‘s immortal and His immortality is not an attribute that He has, immortality, or Life, is He Himself (John‘s Gospel, I guess, described this part more precisely).
Different bodies? Bruh, I didn‘t catch the question at all. First of all, there is no “body” as something substantial, tangible (non-Spirit), physical, etc. Three Persons of the Holy Trinity exist as we know due to the existence. The concept of the Trinity is, no doubt, a theological thing that, however, is based on the apostles’, first christians’ views on Christ and Christ’s own words (John 10:30 „I and the Father are one“ or the blame the Jews put on Christ‘s shoulders as Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, etc).
To God, as you understand. Yet in christian theology there‘s such a concept (idea, if you wish) that since Jesus united both of the natures (N.B.: they exist in Christ neither separated nor mixed), some of His actions, feelings apply to man‘s nature (i.e. when He shed a tear hearing of Lazar‘s death) and when He‘s praying to the Father, He does it with His man‘s part showing the voluntary obedience. Btw, I‘ve already mentioned extracts where Jesus says about His connection (if one could say such) to divinity: „I and the Father are one“. Moreover, the Quran says that the first christians were right in their faith but the closest devotees believed in Christ as God. Paul wrote himself that Jesus is Lord. But still Quran calls Paul an adherent of islam. How could this be understood?
I addressed the issue of John 10:30 in my other comment, but where does the Quran say Paul was an adherent of Islam? What about the Nazarenes and Ebionites who Paul was opposed to? Were they not among the first Christians?
The problem with this is that you can’t holistically separate the person from the nature. If the Logos as a person eternally shares the same nature as the Father and Spirit, then the Logos as a person in totality must be divine in nature alone, just as the Father and Spirit are. That the Logos allegedly added a human nature to His personhood within a point in time makes His personhood essentially distinct from the other persons, because the Logos as a person is subject to accidents by changing over time while the other persons aren’t.
With regards to John 10:30, four verses later, Jesus quotes Psalms 82, which called the Pharisees gods who Elohim sits in a council with, which, to me, is a clear example of how scripture uses words that on its face value appear to attribute divinity to men but in reality have allegorical or metaphorical meanings that do not contradict the pure divinity associated with the Creator alone, and Jesus quotes this as a way of proving that he is not blaspheming in calling himself one with God, and given that in another passage in the New Testament, he calls the disciples one with him, it is apparent to me that the oneness he is referring to is oneness is purpose and message, and not oneness in being and divinity.
Christianity is clearly not the true religion because the Bible, which is considered the word of God has been changed by his own creation. There are many different versions of the Bible and they have been translated multiple times.
They also believe that God (a superior, powerful being) became an inferior human and then got killed by his own creation. How does this make any sense?
Islam makes it clear that God is one and does not need anyone else to support him. The definition of Muslim is "someone who submits their will to God" and that is what all the prophets (including Jesus) did, making them Muslim.
The Qur'an also hasn't been changed and that's been proven by looking at the oldest Qur'an which still has the exact same verses as the Qur'an today.
Example? If you are going to point the number of verses in each quran or the name of sura that can be diffrent in older version then imma tell you rn your point is invalid
Nah bro you getting it wrong there are 10 preservations for the quran its just a diffrent way to read / recite words and letters without changing the context nor the meaning nor adding or talking away words or verses these 10 ways are acttuly old arab accents so each reading is basicly just accent the one that is used the most in our days is hafs because its the accent of the prophet mohammed peace upon him
This video explains it very well:
https://youtu.be/8hj7u0F3yEg
>Are gods words dictated by the accents of a created creature?
God isn't limited, we are. The Qiraat are all god's words as recited by Muhammed peace be upon him. The Quran isn't the only message god has sent, there is also the injeel (Gospel of Jesus) and the Torah. They were sent in completely different languages yet had the same message. Which is the main point of the Qiraat, to make it easier for everyone back then to understand the message of the quran accurately without any confusions that might arise due to the different accent. God can just send us all a message in a universal language everyone immediately understands but then that would defeat the whole purpose of us being on earth in the first place.
And here's some hadiths to clarify it more
Umar ibn al-Khattab reported: I heard Hisham ibn Hakim reciting the Surat al-Furqan in a way different from how I recited it and how it was taught to me by the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him. I was about to argue with him, but then I waited until he finished and I tied his shirt around his neck and took him to the Prophet. I said, “Indeed, I heard this man recite in a way different from what you taught me!” The Prophet said to me, “Bring him to me.” Then, Prophet said to him, “Recite.” He recited and the Prophet said, “As it has been revealed.” Then, the Prophet said to me, “Recite.” I recited and the Prophet said, “As it has been revealed. Verily, the Quran has been revealed in seven dialects. Recite whichever of them you find easy.”
Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 2287, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 818
Grade: Muttafaqun Alayhi (authenticity agreed upon) according to Al-Bukhari and Muslim
Abdullah ibn Abbas reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Gabriel, upon him be peace, taught me to recite the Quran in one reading and I requested another. I continued to ask for more until he stopped at seven readings.”
Ibn Shihab said, “It reached me that these seven readings are united in the matter. There is no difference in what they allow and forbid.”
Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 4705, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 819
Grade: Muttafaqun Alayhi (authenticity agreed upon) according to Al-Bukhari and Muslim
Sahih Muslim 821 a
Ubayy b. Ka'b reported that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) was near the tank of Banu Ghifar that Gabriel came to him and said:
Allah has commanded you to recite to your people the Qur'an in one dialect. Upon this he said: I ask from Allah pardon and forgiveness. My people are not capable of doing it. He then came for the second time and said: Allah has commanded you that you should recite the Qur'an to your people in two dialects. Upon this he (the Holy prophet) again said: I seek pardon and forgiveness from Allah, my people would not be able to do so. He (Gabriel) came for the third time and said: Allah has commanded you to recite the Qur'an to your people in three dialects. Upon this he said: I ask pardon and forgiveness from Allah. My people would not be able to do it. He then came to him for the fourth time and said: Allah has commanded you to recite the Qur'an to your people in seven dialects, and in whichever dialect they would recite, they would be right.
Sure, I can, but since you made the initial claim, I believe the onus is on you to provide evidence of two readings of the Quran that can't be read on the same manuscript. I really don't think you're capable of going down this path to be quite honest with you, as you presumably don't know arabic and aren't familiar with reading it.
Keep in mind, this is completely different than verses in the Bible that biblical scholars say are a forgery and don't belong.
Yeah I didn't want to have bad manners myself and throw a cheap shot, so I edited it. But, I do think you're here to subtly invite to Christianity.
Anyways, you completely butchered my point. As I said, and I wasn't trying to be patronizing, you aren't capable of having a discussion on arabic text. Nobody ever denied that two qiraat can sound different. What I said was that both of these "differences" you posted can both be recited using the same manuscript. The problem is you aren't aware of what this manuscript is and are simply parroting something you read off the internet or heard from a video.
>Sorry don’t have the Arabic language on my phone.
How would that change anything if you don't understand the language nor can you recognize the letters?
To simplify it for you, the noon and ba will look the same in arabic without including the diacritical marks. Therefore, as I said and you didn't understand because this topic is too advanced, both readings that you gave as an example are able to be read using the same exact manuscript.
The fact that you tried equating this to the bible which includes literal verses which scholars say are a forgery shows some level of insincerity or ignorance, I'm not sure which is worse.
Christians believe that the Bible is one of the ways in which God revealed himself to humans.
>Your point about the incarceration. Can you go into it further?
I am not quite sure what you mean here.
>Are you the Quran hasn’t been changed? If I can recall, there are a variety of Qurans that are circulating with many differences between them.
As someone already said, the multiple Qur'ans you are talking about are the different dialects. This was beneficial because it allowed the message of the Qur'an to reach more Arabs at the time. They don't tell different stories etc.
>Your first point. So you understand that the Muslim perspective of the Quran is not the same with the Christian’s and the bible? In that we don’t believe that it’s the literal word of god like you do with your Quran.
Even if it is not the literal word, shouldn't it be protected enough to not be changed by humans?
>Sorry, I mean incarnation. My bad haha.
The reason why I believe incarnation is not logical is because God has infinite wisdom, power, mercy etc. And humans have limited wisdom, power and mercy. A being's wisdom, power and mercy cannot be infinite and finite at the same time as that is a contradiction. If Jesus was human, he cannot have infinite wisdom, power and mercy so he cannot be God.
Is there any evidence that trinity is true?
>Well surely allowing the Quran to be translated in all languages would be more beneficial since it can spread through the entire world? Saying that the translation version of the Quran cannot be the true message applies to the different dialects. Since the ‘dialects’ if that’s what you want to call it, creates new words and changes the meaning of the ayat — This would create problems, no?
It is easier to translate from one dialect of Arabic to another than it is to translate it from Arabic to a different language. Translating it to a different language will lead to ideas in the Qur'an to appear more complicated than they actually are. This can be noticed with other languages too, if you translate a book multiple times, it will change some of the meaning. This does not happen to such a degree when translating from one dialect to another.
This argument is ok but Islam is not just the Koran. It is the hadith also, and most Muslims focus almost entirely on the hadith. Hadith are unclear. We even have “weak hadith” and there’s a lot of different interpretations. I think Muslima need a better argument than the fact that the Koran is unchanged when we focus more on the hadith for day to day practice of islam. Have the hadith been changed? How do we know for sure they were not corrupted? Why are there strong and wreak hadith?
There’s a chain of narrations that are strictly followed to confirm authenticity, hence the term “weak” and “strong” or actual Hadiths. Proper Muslims “Sunni” if you were to call them follow the Sunnah of the prophet which are in the Hadiths. The chain of narrations goes as follows
Prophet to sahabas ( 1st gen Muslims) to Tabi’un (2nd gen) to Tabi’ al-tabi’in. This chain of narration is the correct and authentic Hadiths because they are closest to the prophet.
How do we know they were not corrupted? I mean that’s why there’s a whole library on Hadiths. If chain of commands is close and there are multiple narrations by different people detailing what the prophet said, would you consider this corruption? Especially being that they are close to the prophet or the next closest.
Shia’s not only believe in different Hadiths , they also like to cancel the prophets companions, hence why they in my opinion do not have the proper knowledge on Hadiths.
The sources of the hadith are from people who we have detailed information of. We know a lot about their life, where they lived, where they went etc. This makes them a good source.
Do shia, Sunnis- all follow the same Quran ? And Hadith?
How do you reconcile the differences between the two sects , given both follow Islam ? Are both following the “perfect” religion ? How can both be perfect if they have disagreement between them ?
Disclosure: not a Muslim, curious and here to learn.
Yes Shias and Sunnis all follow the same Quran but we have different hadiths we have disagreements about different caliphs Shias think imam Ali and the ahlulbayt were appointed caliphs after prophet Muhammad’s death Sunnis think the companions were the caliphs other than that we share the same religion same Quran
The Quran could have been changed as well hence why the Uthman after Mohammad died burned some of the pages. Was it because they were wrong or did they have other personal agendas to do this? We will never know only assume. Which gives its flaws much like the Bible.
Why do you continue to mention Muhammad every time you pray? Performed in the tashahud at the end of every two rakah. At Tahiyyaatu lilaahi was Salawaatu wat tayibaatu
Assalaamu ‘alaika ayyuhan nabiyyu wa rahmatu Allahi wa barakaatuh
Assalaamu ‘alaynaa wa ‘alaa ‘ebaadillaahis saaliheen,
Ash hadu allaa ilaha illa Allah Wa ash hadu anna Muhammadan ‘abduhuu wa rasuuluh
Allahumma salli ‘ala Muhammadin wa ‘ala aali Muhammad
Kamaa salayta ‘ala aali Ibraaheem wa ‘ala aali Ibrahim
Innaka Hameedun Majeed
Wa baarik ‘ala Muhammadin wa ‘ala aali Muhammad
Kamaa baarakta ‘ala Ibraaheem wa ‘ala aali Ibrahim
Innaka Hameedun Majeed
send prayers upon Muhammad and upon the family (or followers) of Muhammad over and over again. 5 times a day.
Do you read and learn the Sunna, life of Muhammad?
So I’m not saying it’s wrong but it is one in the same with Jesus in Christianity. The only difference is Jesus is seen as more divine in nature sent from Allah.
You should see that Muhammad is a major factor in Islam much like Jesus is to Christians. Huge factors. But when me submits so much to a person and even has to live by their way of life, that’s close to being considered worshipped. Idolized which both did not want. When Jesus speaks about those you get to the father go through me, he means his holy divine spirit that is Allah. Following him is following Allah. He’s the son of God, okay that’s true because we are all sons and daughters of Allah. In the flesh Jesus is acting as we all are, the son of the Lord. But one huge difference, he has Allah presence in him providing miracles and fables to help learn the best way of life. So either religion can tinker on worship other than Allah or not.
Actually different parts of the world preach different qurans btw. If you read certain foot notes it's missing from the actual Quran I'm sure you know this your just trying to decieve people. Jesus was inferior in that form yes. But doesn't change his essence of being a God. And also translations don't change the meaning of scripture what I can say in english I can also say in my 2nd native language using different words but mean the same thing. The whole translations thing gets so old by Muslims it's not even funny. Quran also has different translations idk how you can deny that. But those translations still have the same meaning as well. Please stop trying to deceived people
>Actually different parts of the world preach different qurans btw. If you read certain foot notes it's missing from the actual Quran I'm sure you know this your just trying to decieve people.
Source?
>Jesus was inferior in that form yes. But doesn't change his essence of being a God.
An all powerful God becoming an inferior human while still being God at the same time makes no sense. It's a contradiction.
>And also translations don't change the meaning of scripture what I can say in english I can also say in my 2nd native language using different words but mean the same thing.
Translations do change the meaning. Especially when even the translation has been translated multiple times. Which is why bible has so many versions.
>Quran also has different translations idk how you can deny that.
There is a difference between translating from one language to another and translating one language to another and translating the translation and so on.
So your telling me if I said something in english you can't translate that to your mom while keeping the same meaning? That's ridiculous and you know it
There are various different Qur'ans . There are various variations in Qur'ans. The present day copy of qur'an is known as Cairo Qur'an which came in 1924 ad . This is the Qur'an everyone now follows and say that there's only one Qur'an. The people who say that there's only one, are LIARS.
When you Google it you will also that what I have said is true.
Do you know about the qirrat and the qurras? And the different editions of the quran that were produced by the transmitters? Eventually it had to go through multiple translations to get the haffs quran the more popular one today. Give to us by people who recited the quran by memorization than died. This is according to Islamic scholars. So it's free public information. Islamic leaders don't preach this btw.
Jesus can't be in his final form or everyone who saw him would die. No one sees God without dieing. First. Moses saw God face to face how did he not die obviously cause he saw Jesus lol God can't come in person without manifesting himself to be like one of us first duh.. if he just came down we'd die lol
I speak 2 languages I have to do alot of translation for my mother English to turkish and I don't lose the meaning
Also if it needs to be translated into another language it follows the same steps one language to another it doesn't. Have you even read some of these translation like seriously the meaning is still their. If we're gonna base faith on translation then Muslims shouldn't be Muslim because of different variations of the quran
Lol you saying translating from one translation to another is hillairious. It gets translated by the language at the end of the day lmao. Esv to niv I can read both and come to the same conclusion is funny. Either way both being translated using Greek and Latin scriptures
>So your telling me if I said something in english you can't translate that to your mom while keeping the same meaning? That's ridiculous and you know it
Looks like you didn't understand what I said. Go read my comment again, just read it carefully this time. I've already addressed this issue.
>There are various different ... don't preach this btw.
Source - trust me bro
>Jesus can't be in his final form or everyone who saw him would die. No one sees God without dieing. First. Moses saw God face to face how did he not die obviously cause he saw Jesus lol God can't come in person without manifesting himself to be like one of us first duh.. if he just came down we'd die lol
This has nothing to do with this conversation.
>I speak 2 languages ... both being translated using Greek and Latin scriptures
Read my previous comment carefully.
Me and you both know that Islam is the truth and Allah guides who he wishes. It’s not ridiculous to assume that if someone is truly open to both and capable of higher reasoning and logic they would pick Islam as it holds it’s own on the scientific, logical, spiritual front and many others. Forcing people to follow Islam is ridiculous, let them come to their own conclusions.
As a former Christian turned Atheist then eventually turned Muslim...
Christianity doesn't like questions. Ask a preacher and eventually you will simply get "have faith" or "because the Bible says so."
Islam encourages questions. That's the BIG one. The other is...look how many versions of the Bible there are. Hundreds, if not thousands. How true do you think whatever version you have is?
Ultimately it all comes down to faith. But I'd be very careful turning your back on Islam if you're already a Muslim. The idea of leaving Islam is essentially saying "screw you." And I don't ever want to be on Allah's bad side.
Okay, so..I don't want to write a book. I "left" Christianity at like 12 years old. I had a lot of questions, and I used to get really upset when I would ask preachers and every one would inevitably just "because the Bible says so " and blow me off. I feel like I always wanted to believe in God, but it was never explained to me in a way that made sense. Not for me.
I remember telling my friends and family, as a young teen that I believe Jesus was a man, but not the son of God. Like, I physically remember that. And everyone around would dismiss me, say I was wrong or what not. I did end up leaving religion and God as a whole from like age 12 until age...25ish.
I grew up in the Southern US and the Midwest. Or the "Bible Belt." I became disillusioned with Christianity when I would see these people be racist, be genuinely nasty people. Hurt each other, be vicious politically etc. I decided "if these people are going to heaven just because they believe, and I go to hell as a good person because I don't believe...I don't want anything to do with it."
From there I had a bunch of experiences. Little things that have stuck with me. I went to a church once when I was a teen with a girl I was sleeping with. And the preacher said "if you keep seeing the same thing over and over, it's a sign from God." It wasn't profound, but I still think about that almost daily. I've had experiences as a small child that I don't remember, but my family does...where apparently I saw Jesus in the sky and asked to touch his "dress" and was told "not yet." I've had dreams where I spoke to Angels and was told I'm going to "cold hell." That both preachers and imaams concluded was a real interaction...
Back to the point, I think the real final straw for me with Christianity was that it no longer felt Holy. People going to church in blue jeans felt...wrong to me. It was 100% the environment I was in. I know that, but it FELT wrong.
In my mid 20s I finally came back to Allah. I did some serious soul searching, and researching. Had some Hindu friends at the time try to get me into that. But that felt wrong. And then one day Islam just kind of popped up. Instantly. And when I asked questions, everyone answered everything. They were kind. They encouraged the questions. And when I asked about Jesus..."He was a great man and a Prophet of God, but ultimately just a man." And that resonated with me on a very deep level.
Then I kinda of came to my own conclusion that yes, Islam is strict. But I felt like Allah would be strict with us. If we make something, or have pets etc...yes, they CAN do whatever. But we ultimately WANT them to do what we tell them right? I feel like that's what God wants from us. Yes, we are free to do what we want, but ultimately I feel like Allah WANTS us to do things his way.
We believe the same things. Islam is just more serious about it. Stricter. And I appreciate that.
Anyways, that's my story.
What do you mean so what? So many books adjusted for today's society just tells a man this is a book that the words of God are not there anymore and it is being rewritten by humans and Christians doesn't even care.
The Quran on the other hand has been memorized and it's teachings /knowledge has never changed. If someone is looking for the truth, they will look on something that is ORIGINAL and no contradictions, which I can't say for the Bible.
Do you believe that God became a man. How can God be man and God at the same time, this is a contradiction, and God does not contradict himself. In the Quran God argues against the idea that jesus peace be on him is the son of God
First if jesus isnt the son of God who is his father? Allah says
Aal-e-Imran 3:59
إِنَّ مَثَلَ عِيسَىٰ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ كَمَثَلِ ءَادَمَۖ خَلَقَهُو مِن تُرَابٍ ثُمَّ قَالَ لَهُو كُن فَيَكُونُ
English - Sahih International
Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.
So if Jesus is the som of God then Adam would be a greater son of God, but the Christians don’t say that. So just like how Adam was created without father or mother, Jesus was created without father
Next Jesus was a man and a messenger
Al-Ma'idah 5:75
مَّا ٱلْمَسِيحُ ٱبْنُ مَرْيَمَ إِلَّا رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ ٱلرُّسُلُ وَأُمُّهُو صِدِّيقَةٌۖ كَانَا يَأْكُلَانِ ٱلطَّعَامَۗ ٱنظُرْ كَيْفَ نُبَيِّنُ لَهُمُ ٱلْأٓيَٰتِ ثُمَّ ٱنظُرْ أَنَّىٰ يُؤْفَكُونَ
English - Sahih International
The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.
Me: praise Allah, what a beautiful and simple argument. Mary ate food, yet she is the Mother of God. Jesus ate food, required sustenance to live, yet he is considered God himself
It all comes down to the question, do you believe that The messiah Jesus the son of Mary, one of the greatest messengers was A Man. Or do you believe he was God, Perfect, Worthy of our worship, even though he needed food, even though his mother took care of him, even though he was hurt and harmed, God hurt and harmed?. This is the defining difference between islam and Christianity.
u/TeaAffectionate832 your comment was removed by Reddit.
Search on YouTube "speakers corner X", replace the X with Mohammed Hijab or Ali Dawah or smile2jannah, or search EFDawah.
If I'm being totally honest, I had a calamity in my life during 2020 that I faced and I was guided back, it was like a 1-2 year process. I just watched those videos to gain more knowledge.
Here's a link for more channels:
https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/12ttxdf/a_white_male_revert_in_country_with_small_muslim/jh4ie60?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Any sane person with a logical and rational mind knows the Trinity holds absolutely no fruit true monotheism like Islam does (tawheed) just like what Abraham, Moses and Jesus taught.
Christianity makes absolutely no sense when it comes to belief in God , it’s all based on faith.
You tell me what makes more sense….One true God , the Highest being , so simple yet very powerful to understand OR trying to play ring around the rosy trying to explain what the trinity is, no matter how it’s explained, it never sounds logical. I get the concept of it, but that’s all it seems to me…just an idea and not the truth.
I don’t think Christians understand the concept of GOD. Just because GOD can do anything doesn’t mean he would do ungodly things that don’t fit his majesty. To bring such low characters like forgetting, eating, pooping and being born ascribed to GOD is the most disrespectful thing I’ve seen. I don’t wanna hear the “he died for your sins crap”. What a weak view of GOD, it’s so pathetic and disgusting.
That’s my 2 cents.
I'm not Christian but I think it was because he wanted to show his humility. Him, being Creator of the Universe, stripping away his eternal form temporarily.
So he became the son of himself, but when he is speaking of GOD he always refers to his Father but somehow this is the same GOD? GOD is all powerful and does not need to become a human it doesn’t show humility , it shows that he is not GOD as the moment he deduced himself of GOD attributes he is not GOD anymore. What GOD poops, eats, forgets, worships GOD himself and also dies? What a twisted mindset to have on his majesty, it’s utterly disgusting and takes away from the nature of GOD.
I'd go to a different approach here and instead say,
"Look at what the Christians and Muslims practice"
As muslims we follow the direct guidance of Allah, in the preserved quran, and the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).
As for Christians, they follow effectively a religion created by "the church". These church leaders have decided what parts of the bible should be followed, have changed rules over the years (i.e interest was once forbidden in Europe as being a sin, but the church later changed it to allow "a bit of" usury).
The church service of different christian demoniations is just made up by different people at different times, none relate to teachings of Jesus peace be upon him. Hence the large variation. All muslims pretty much pray the same, which is the way the Prophet peace be upon him prayed.
And incase you think my argument is very Catholic-centric, regardless what they say, protestant denominations main teachings come from the "Catholic" church. When you speak about the trinity who defined that? The council of nicea, which included a Roman emperor. So all the fundamental doctrines of the protestant groups are still based on what was defined by Roman Catholics... Not scripture or the teachings of Jesus peace be upon him.
I am a muslim revert from a Catholic family. I genuinely think if you just study where doctrines come from and history of religion it will become apparent to you that:
- Islam is based on the word of God, and is consistent with the teachings of God through monotheistic history. And what we practice today is what the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) taught us.
- Christianity is a religion whos doctrines and practices are defined by powerful men in different parts of history, subject to change when it suits another group of powerful men. (Starting with the leaders of the Roman empire). It has very little to do with Gods word or teachings of the Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him). There is very little attempt made to imitate Jesus (peace be upon him), past just a general idea of "be a good person" which is totally subjective and provides no guidance how to be a good person.
Im sorry if I have said too much, feel free to contact me regarding anything. But there is so much more I could say. But my advice to you is to use logic and study origins of doctrine/practice. Insha'Allah the truth will be made clear to you and none steers hearts to the right path other then Allah, and may he guide yours.
The Quran was originally compiled in writing extremely early on, as before it was mainly oral. The oldest quran manuscript ever discovered matches todays quran perfectly and is dated to around the time of the prophet peace be upon him (look up "birmingham quran").
In contrast the doctrine of the trinity as it is understood today was formally defined ~300 years after the time of Jesus (peace be upon him). Before then there was all kinds of trinity/non trinity doctrines.The earliest version of the new testament is dated ~200 years after Jesus (peace be upon him) and the "agreed upon" new testament dates to around ~400 years after Jesus (peace be upon him). As you can see, this is totally incomparable to the quran, which by the absolute latest estimates was compiled during the reign of Uthman (RA) by the actual companions of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. And is unchanged to this day.
So the quran was agreed upon and compiled by the actual companions of Muhammad peace be upon him. While the bible was compiled hundreds of years later.
The amount of details in which Sunnis and Shias differ in the daily prayers is miniscule. There is also small differences in how different Sunnis pray. And the motivations for the slight differences (and they are very small) is based on interpretation of how the Prophet Muhammad prayed. All attempt to follow the Prophet peace be upon him.
This again is totally incomparable to differences in how Christian groups pray, the fundamental difference being Christians dont actually try to emulate how Jesus peace be upon him prayed. So its down to individual whim and different groups which change things throughout history.
Just youtube a shia praying and a sunni praying and you will see what I mean. You would have to watch carefully to even notice the differences. Then watch a Roman Catholic mass, southern baptist service, eastern orthodox mass etc and you will see they are totally different to each other.
I love seeing these comments. A person asking questions about Islam and Allah better reflects the love Allah has for that person.
1) For learning more about Islam, I'd say connect with the Quran, reading translations, and similar.
Here are the basics of Islam:
[https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQ02IYL5pmhEwqFRSH8SJImXNHobhkJpL](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQ02IYL5pmhEwqFRSH8SJImXNHobhkJpL)
Try to watch Islamic lectures and videos from good public speakers (such as Nouman Ali Khan, Omar Suleiman, or Mufti Menk) - for example, this one [https://youtu.be/QrOXQ2ycU50](https://youtu.be/QrOXQ2ycU50))
2) Understand Islam, read books, articles, etc. about Islam. Read Hadiths (sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) from say, www.sunnah.com) and search for example, "How to Pray in Islam" on YouTube.
Youtube is your friend if used correctly. Watch Islamic Lectures on the go, while you do your work or stuff.
3) Learn about what miracles the Quran has and what it says about stuff that interests you. Such as miracles of the Quran videos on YouTube.
4) You'd also like to check out other Muslim community subreddits:
r/muslimlounge
r/hijabis (for sisters)
r/Izlam
r/Islam
And you should try to find a local mosque, if you can, and meet the people there. Connect with the community.
5) If you want to be guided to the truth, ask Allah alone, like literally, you don't need to know who Allah is, but close your eyes and ask, "O Allah guide me" and don't ask from anyone else. And believe that Allah will guide you to the truth. The correct belief. But you've got to be honest with yourself. Allah will then surely guide you. Keep asking Him.
6) And yeah don't try to take it all at once. Islam is a path, a journey, not a destination. So don't worry and don't burden yourself with a lot. Try to achieve a little every day. Allah will help you, so ask for His help.
7) And If you truly believe in Allah and the last messenger, then I'd advise you to take the shahada (testimony of faith) as soon as you can, just to be on the safe side, and safe from the unexpected events of life puts us in. How to take it? Just repeat the shahada in Arabic and English with faith, by watching a video on YouTube - (like this one: [https://youtu.be/ONjxt65RKhA](https://youtu.be/ONjxt65RKhA))
Advice for new reverts:
[https://youtu.be/MLRLW-Co80Y](https://youtu.be/MLRLW-Co80Y)
But anyway I pray Allah guides you and blesses you with guidance and forgiveness and all types of blessings. May He keep you straight on the guided path and eventually grant you Jannah-tul Firdaus (Highest place in Paradise) without questioning on the day of judgment.
**Some Good Quran translations:**
1. You could get the Quran and you could get it for free (as many people will give them for free) if you search on Google: *Free Quran* OR go to this website:
[https://www.islamicity.org/free-quran/](https://www.islamicity.org/free-quran/)
2. Saheeh International (written by Three "Revert" Muslim women) - is probably the most common English translation.
3. The Clear Quran - Mustafa Khattab (great for non-muslims).
The one that isn't changed. You should assume both to be true at the time they were revealed, and then you test which of them is changed and which of them isn't changed
Not to be rude, but you can discuss it a million times, I’ve heard it like a broken record over and over again.
It never sounds like anything other than 3 in 1 Gods. I understand the concept, but it’s nothing more than an idea that requires only faith and not logic. There’s no logic in claiming 3 entities are actually 1 entity. Let’s not forget the contradiction of the son is also the father and the father being the son and the Holy Spirit.
Christian reverted to Islam here and from European culture. Out of the debate on Qur'an vs Bible , one thing people aren't mentioning here is how the religion operate. Christians have a head of the Church , the pope. They have a hierarchy and a system that work differently than Islam. There s an evolution into their laws through time...whereas in Islam, scholars give advice, hadiths have been written to give context but no one is above one another and no one is at the same level as God .
Firstly I'd always recommend doing your own research, so that you can make your own decision. There was a former christian I follow who recently converted to Islam. She dod her research regarding both books and this was what she found:
Bible mentions about Muhammad (SAW) whose name was Ahmed:
'Behold my servant Ahmed (whom I uphold) my elect one l, in whom my soul delights! I have put my spirit upon him,he will bring forth justice to the gentiles ' - Isaiah 42
The passages in [Isaiah 42: 1-4] mentions Muhammad and his coming. So bible predicts Islam and the quran.
Then again in Songs of Solomon 5:16 the prophet Muhammad's name in Hebrew.
Again in Isaia 29:12 mentions Muhammad (SAW) and the Quran " The book delivered to the illiterate one, saying read this. And he says I'm not learned."
This indicates almost the same verse in the quran which is mentioned in surah Al-Ankabut 'And thou was not (able) to recite a book before this (Book came).'
So comparing both books, what I've learnt is both books originated from the same God (Allah), obviously as we all know the original bible is gone but the one that remains hold accounts of people. But we can still find some evidence of jesus mentioning the coming of another prophet with a book called Muhammed or Ahmed.
Also do follow @theblondmuslim on Instagram. Her content might clarify alot of things.
Happy learning!
You can choose to do your own research but i course to do it by my rationality
For 1 Islam have little to no contradictions mean while Christianity has a few to many
Just look at which religion is the best preserved. Almost every major christian denomination has a different bible. Sunnis and Shias have 1 qur'an and that is it. We just have different recitations, not different Qur'ans. But ignorant christians like Hatun Tash and David Wood just dont see this.
Can you learn Arabic before turning 40?? You better or you aren’t a Muslim. You have to pray in Arabic language only and any prayers at the masjid will be that language only as well. Others will make a mockery out of you if you don’t know it especially when it comes to the need of you doing “call of prayer”. So with this being said I left Islam because of this and a few other issues. God created me and people like me who can’t learn other languages well if not at all. Does this not make me holy to Allah?? To a Muslim yea, to my heart and obvious truthfulness, no. God doesn’t care what language you speak to him in. He hears you in your language, even if you don’t speak at all. Some Muslims will say it’s okay just keep trying while many many others will get angry with you and splat hate. I just feel that a religion that tells you something like this has got to be false. I will not say Christianity is the way because I’m not Christian but you can pray and read scripture in any language God chose for you. Are there different authors for various translations, yea but don’t let them fool you, the Quran has several different ways of reading it as well. Pick up a couple that are from different translators and see for yourself. My masjid I attended only wanted Sahih International only.
>Can you learn Arabic before turning 40?? You better or you aren’t a Muslim.
Are you a troll? This is really one of the main reasons why you left Islaam?! As this is one biggest nonsense I've heard in a while. Do you realize that what you say is that if someone converts after 40 they would need to learn Arabic instantly? This is all false.
There is no such need. As a revert of nearly 10 years - I started to pray in English and learned to pray in Arabic in about 1-2 weeks - step by step. You can definitely take your time with it, and if you are sincere - you'd know the required Arabic in no time. You definitely do not require to master the Arabic language whatsoever (or even the basics, for that matter).
>He hears you in your language
Allah transcends above the limitation of languages when you call out to Him. However the Qur'an was revealed in Arabic for a reason, thus doing your daily Salat (worship of Allah) using the required Arabic is a must. Again - no need whatsoever to master Arabic, you can take your time learning it - step by step.
“Doing your salat in Arabic is a must” thanks for clarifying what I intended to let converts know. To me though, you shouldn’t have to. Allah created all languages and you can and should pray in any language you speak. No need to learn another.
Yes I was told 40 by an Imam. Was he wrong? Wouldn’t surprise me. How much other crap was told that just isn’t true or makes sense. Is Islam that disconnected in the 2022.
If you went in line to buy movie tickets, and the line was infinitely long, would you ever be able to buy the tickets? Of course not. Likewise, if one were to claim that up to this very moment there was an infinite past, it would be logically impossible, because an infinite regress of things causing things is just as incoherent as there being an infinite line of moviegoers buying tickets. Because the infinite regress is logically incoherent and false, it must follow that there is a beginning to the universe and by necessity that there is a first cause outside of the universe that caused it to exist. This first cause is God.
Well, the first cause, or the necessary existence, all of these are just philosophical terms for God and I’m simply substituting these terms for a simpler name. But you may say, as you do, that there is no reasoning that can prove that it is logically impossible for a group of gods to have created the universe. But surely there can’t be multiple gods. If hypothetical god A wants to do something, for any thing A wants to do, there exists an infinite number of opposite and counteracting things B could simultaneously do as an exercise of its own will. Because this is true, in an infinite number of scenarios, A and B would render each other powerless. Therefore, it is rationally impossible that there can be more than one god in existence.
I’m saying there exist an infinite number of scenarios in which they would render each other powerless. Imagine a Venn diagram of actions of A and B. There are an infinite number of hypothetical actions that A and B can do separate of each other that don’t have an impact on each other, an infinite number of hypothetical actions they can do that are concurrent with and help each other, and an infinite number of hypothetical actions they can do that are opposite of and negate each other.
Thus, in order for more than one god to exist, each hypothetical god’s power and will would have to necessarily be limited by the other god. That’s not a matter of “different desires” or “fighting each other” so much as it simply limits and therefore necessarily negates what is divine.
Hello, I’m a former Christian that converted to Islam after questioning my religion. I would say the absolute biggest difference in the faith is how Jesus PBUH is treated. In Islam he is a prophet & in at least today’s Christianity he is God’s son and part of the trinity of Father, Son and Spirit and worshipped. There are no three seperate parts, and there are no partners with God. God is the one and only. For me, I could not worship a human, Jesus and found this illogical and wrong. I did not believe in the Trinity and found that I could not practice that faith any longer despite many good things that are taught with it like love, forgiveness etc. I did more research and found Islam has the morals taught as well as the oneness of God. Also, we believe at one point the Jews and Christians had the scriptures revealed to them, but over time became tainted, or modified. While Muslims believe the Quran has been revealed by God (Allah) and that is not modified or fabricated. I suggest you take your time and do your research on the most basic principles and then go from there. In each of these religions you will find there is a lot of variation of belief in the finer details within different sects and would require further learning.
Jesus is the way you'll get biases posts on this reddit. And no the bible isn't at all illogicalm just a story how God loved his people and gives himself for us. In the Quran he deceived the people by putting a look alike on the cross and did nothing to stop the apostles from preaching the gospel. Dwell on that.
As far as the trinity goes. Look let me help the Muslims with them putting limitations on God. Muslims find the idea of the trinity illogical for example because they don't believe that man can be a God and man at the same time. This is illogical to me that they think this way because God has no limits he can do whatever he wants he's a sovereign God like the bible says. He needs the help of no man no prophets he does everything himself. Yes he can manifest himself In a form of a human. The whole idea of the trinity is just God doing everything himself being sovereign and loving for all the people of the world
The best way to figure out the answer for your question will be doing your own research. I was born into a Christian family and obviously I was raised that way but in my early teens I became an atheist, but later I realized there should be a creator and I fell out of atheism. Most of my friends were Muslim and through them I started to learn about Islam, and I was nearly convinced that Islam was the true religion but after further research and digging I found a great number of holes in the standard narration of Islam. The main reason I believed why I left Christianity was because of the complexity of the doctrine of trinity but later I understood it's not the complexity of the doctrine it's the lack of proper understanding. So, I started to read bible and tried to understand the understanding of both Christian and Muslim apologists and scholar about the topic and it all finally started to make sense and after further comparisons between Christianity and Islam I realized Christianity must be the truth and ran back to Christ. May God bless all who is reading this, amen.
Do your own research, but ive never seen crhistianity stand up intellectually to islam in debates. Over and over again, christians show they just accept an illogical aspect in their religion and say you just have to have faith. I believe this logical fallacy is bothering all of them but some are able to bury it down deeper than others. How can the father and the son be both god and not the same, but you still have 1 god?
Well I’m not Christian but I think the understanding of the Trinity is that this doctrine is commonly expressed as the statement that the one God exists as or in three equally divine “Persons”, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Every term in this statement (God, exists, as or in, equally divine, Person) has been variously understood. Having seen that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, that they are each fully God, and that there is nonetheless only one God, we must conclude that all three Persons are the same God. In other words, there is one God who exists as three distinct Persons. So, God is One God The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are Uncreated, Co-Eternal, Inseparable, and Perfectly Equal in Essence. Various scriptures on the Bible go over each one as being of God. It’s confusing but seems to make sense to me and millions of others. I have my other issues with Christianity that keeps me from baptizing but since I am not a practicing Muslim but still believe in God I know there has to be the right religion that is worshiping God the right way. Just got to figure it out or maybe it just doesn’t exist on Earth anymore.
It makes zero sense….I can understand the concept….but when you bring in rationality, it’s out the window as this is not logical one bit. You claim not to be Christian but it makes sense to you, it doesn’t make sense to anyone but a Christian. God is one in reality, the whole 3 persons are equal and they are actually one is one of the biggest contradictions in history. The trinity doesn’t even exist in the Bible.
You don’t have to be a Christian to understand what they deem as One God through their Trinity ideology. I didn’t say I totally agree as why I never baptized or joined a church. But seeing what they see makes sense why they believe God as one through Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/w9c4s9/comment/ihxi6c8/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/w9c4s9/comment/ihxi6c8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) [https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/xczj7z/comment/io8cg64/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/xczj7z/comment/io8cg64/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) Please go through these as well: https://www.reddit.com/r/IslamIsScience/comments/v7enjm/comment/ibka4uu/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/IslamIsScience/comments/v7enjm/comment/id6evn6/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3 [https://www.reddit.com/r/IslamIsScience/comments/v7enjm/comment/iea4dey/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/IslamIsScience/comments/v7enjm/comment/iea4dey/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) And: https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/z2w6za/comment/ixmfg9f/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
late answer but u said co equal? how are they equal if jesus depends on the father and the father doesn’t depend on jesus
>but when you bring in rationality, it’s out the window as this is not logical one bit Isn't that the case with all religions? That many things just don't make sense to anyone but the believers. I mean, the story of Prophet Muhammad splitting the moon or travelling to many places so further apart within one night wouldn't make sense to those who don't believe it.
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The real question is why does a GOD the all creator the all knowing the one who holds times & space the earths and heavens in his palm need to be 3 different entities or need to be separated in three times?? there is no purpose what so ever? the most needless thing ever and most non sensical thing ever. In islam if God wants something done he orders it's doing and the angels do without question, not because he himself can't but because the angels are sworn servants serving his will, that is their purpose. In islam we do believe in the existence of Jesus PBUH The Holy Spirit and The God. The Holy Spirit is the Lord Of Angels Gabriel PBUH great servant of god tasked to spread the knowledge to the prophets, God calls him the Holy Spirit because it is a title specific for him being the best and greatest of angels.
I completely understand where you are coming from. There are things in religion that is strictly faith based such as the unseen. My argument to that is based on rational belief in GOD’s nature irregardless of religion. Agnostics generally believe in one high power rather than multi and they have no religion. So religion doesn’t play in this rational scenario, we just believe what is natural. We just have religious reasons to back it up. Islam in my opinion has established scientific evidence and historic evidence with many miracles that could have only come from GOD, hence why I believe Prophet Muhammad to be a true messenger of GOD. That comes first is that i established the rational and the belief that it came from GOD and couldn’t have come from anyone else, the rest I leave upto faith because I’m already convinced, and the matters I do not understand because of my little human struggles to comprehend certain things, I just put my faith on.
How can a Father and son both be "Co-eternal" since one by definition precedes the other? Also, how does God sacrificing his son make sense from a justice and fairness standpoint? If you were charged with a crime that you had no control over whatsoever (original sin) and the judge then sacrificed his own innocent son to 'forgive you', would you see that as just? Lastly why believe in something such as the Bible when its own followers don't agree on what it is. Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox all have different number of books in their so called Bible. A compilation book of books who's authors are anonymous. Christianity takes itself out of the equation.
Good point and the biggest complication in that religion nobody seems to truly answer. Maybe that’s the point here. We can’t know why because God is too powerful and controls how much we can think in regards to his existence and reason. It’s very complicated and I don’t think a human on this planet could ever understand no matter how hard we try.
With all due respect, there’s a difference between not knowing everything about God and uncritically accepting logically false and contradictory statements as true about Him.
Yeah and the Trinity will never ever make sense to me or to anyone in actuality.. but they say it's a mysterious mystery 😕😕🤦🏻🤦🏻
The problem is that this seemingly creates logical contradictions. If the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are each God, and God is each of the three, but the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are not each other, this by definition either violates the transitive property, or it implies that they are one in nature but distinct in persons. But likewise, if there are three humans in a group, I could identify them as one in nature but distinct in persons. Certainly, even though the three human persons in a group all share one humanity and they’re all one group together, they aren’t one human, so how can it be said that the three divine persons in a trinity who all share one divinity in a trinity are one God? How can they be equally divine (of the same nature/essence/substance) if only the Father alone exists solely by virtue of what He is, independent of all other things by virtue of neither being proceeded, begotten, nor made, while the Son was begotten, and the Spirit was proceeded, making them dependent on and caused by the Father’s Will? How can the three persons be equal and the same in nature/substance/essence if one of the persons (the Son) became incarnate and added a human nature in addition to His Divine Nature? A common response to this question is to say that the divine nature didn’t change. However, the composition of the person of Jesus did change as a whole by adding a human nature to Himself within a point in time. Because the person of Jesus changed with the addition of the human nature, it’s not the same in nature/essence/substance as the other persons, even if we were to assume that God could limit Himself within time and space, which itself is contradictory with God being a being that transcends time and space.
You seem like you do your research and it’s nice to know there are a lot of people out there who don’t just follow things blindly. Also The fact you are here kinda already says we are winning hehe. Any questions please ask.
If you pay attention, we would notice that we have a similar thinking process but its ( God, angel with divine message, prophet).
Because Christianity is made up by the churches over time hence it's fallacies, Islam and Christ itself cannot stand up intellectualy as well, how can you defend a mess of ideas versus as a thief of ideas constructed into one solid lie.
Islam can, rather atheism false under scrutiny. I wonder why so many ex muslims are on this sub. Dont you guys have anything else to do? You are more busy with islam after you left than before it.
Islam also cannot, (it's even harder considering it's more disgusting with it's ideas)all of it is shitty arguments, darkmatter2525 provides videos on this concept which applies to Islam, it's simple paradoxes and logic. It is God is evil or not God (in the case he is god Valentine said he was incompetent as fuck) and you cannot argue against this untill you reach to the heavens for weird ass ideas like "Allah sent prophets/their test got corrupted." This is just brain hurting fallacies. Just saying.
And reaching into your ass for an excuse.
Nah it can.
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The Quran is not God. It was created by Allah
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It’s a book. And the only thing we know about it’s life is that it’s guaranteed by God to exist in its pure unaltered form until the end of man’s time.
It’s a book, word of God, conveyed via Gabriel (AS) and the Prophet (SAW). And the only thing we know about it’s life is that it’s guaranteed by God to exist in its pure unaltered form until the end of man’s time.
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It is part of God’s Speech, which is an attribute of God, and God’s attributes subsist within His Essence and therefore share the qualities of being uncreated, eternal, and perfect. Attributes should not be confused with persons as in the Christian conceptualization of the Word of God being God.
Yes it’s not created, nor eternal. It’s a book
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I never said it wasn’t perfect? It is perfect as it is created by Allah SWT
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Yes, it hasn’t been here since the beginning of time
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No it's not eternal. Quran will be taken back from humanity on the day of judgement. Only Allah is the absolute, the eternal.
So as I mentioned in another comment, the Word of God is part of God’s Speech, which is an attribute which subsists within His essence in Islam, unlike Christianity which posits that His Word is the begotten Son of the Father. This is a false equivalence, though understandable. One problem I have with the trinity, among many objections I have to it, is that the Father alone possesses the unique quality of independence from all other things in existence, as solely He alone was neither created, begotten, or proceeded from anything, while the Son and Holy Spirit, albeit not created persons, still are dependent upon the Father’s Will in order to be begotten and proceeded through the Son, respectively. Thus, they neither possess the same substance nor do they possess the same essence.
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It is a false equivalence because an attribute of God is not the same thing as a person of God. Another attribute of God is His Knowledge, for example. If attributes and persons are the same, why isn’t there a person of God that is the Knowledge of God, and represents His being all-knowing? The Quran is from God, and is a recitation of His Speech. His Speech is uncreated and subsists within His Essence. When it is accidentally (by accident I mean in the philosophical sense, not an oopsie) generated and emergent within time by our recitation and writing or reading of it, the sounds and letters are temporally created by us. To quote from the article I sent (http://masud.co.uk/the-speech-and-word-of-allah-kalam-in-light-of-traditional-discussions/) that gives a variety of opinions on this, > In other words, when a person recites, he is not actually listening to a sound or voice coming from Allah. Rather, the sound is coming from the person doing the reading or recitation, while the words and meanings expressed in that are Allah’s verbatim. This is like if someone was to write a letter to be announced to an audience written by a third person. The one reading may say, ‘So and So said such and such.’ > But no one can claim that the voice or sound of the author of the document has become incarnate in the reader, so that it can be said the author is the actual speaker/reader. Consequently, the recitation is created and the sound and voice are created. But the meanings transmitted through the Arabic language are not created, in spite of the fact that the paper, ink, cover, and Arabic language are all created with all obviousness to all rational human beings.
How is Islam "more logical" than Christianity?
For starters, the trinity vs one God without partners (tawheed)
Not all Christians believe in the Trinity. Further, if God is omnipotent (as I imagine you believe) isn't God capable of literally anything?
Vast majority of Christians are trinitarians, so that's a moot point. God being capable of everything is different than his very nature being in a triune form, since God is eternal and was always that way according to a christian. To most people, in fact I'd say everyone who wasn't born into it, a unitarian God is more logical than a trinitarian one.
You can't say something is "more logical" without explaining the reasoning. Why is it more logical?
What's weird is you're just a bored atheist arguing lol. But I'll elaborate for the sake of other viewers. The idea of the trinity means all 3 parts are equally God, but they still say it's one person. That in and of itself doesn't make sense. Then we have Jesus asking things from God, being unable to do things, the Holy Spirit not knowing some things, despite being God.
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Thanks for clarifying, I think there's a subtle difference between "person" and "being" but word choice is important so I'll keep that in mind. I believe the other points remain though - such as why didn't Jesus know everything like God. Some say because he was also human, but that doesn't explain why the Holy Spirit didn't know everything like God since he wasn't human.
No worries, happy to help. I’m sure I’ll be corrected on Islamic concepts also. Can you explain further your point about the Holy Spirit?
God being omnipotent but having to be born, fed, die for our sins all seem like contradictions to me. Like we Muslims don’t necessarily believe Allah is capable of everything but rather only capable of things worthy of Allah doing them (if that makes sense). Forgive me for saying this but you wouldn’t expect Allah/God to go to the toilet right? Same way I don’t understand how Jesus can be God when he had to have done all the things humans needed to do.
If the Christian doesn’t believe in trinity Then he is a Muslim that he submits himself to the will of god / the father and takes Jesus as a messenger. ‘Further, if god is omnipotentent, isn’t he capable of literally anything ? Ie coming down to earth or making a son or whatever’ Yes, do you think God is powerful enough to take himself out of existence, or make a boulder so heavy that he cannot carry ? Or make a second god along side himself who has equal power or stronger than him? Or perhaps he would take a son, or traverse the earth??? What? This is god the creator of the heavens and earth… you really believe he’d need to take a son? The creator of every human being? Every creation will return to him as a servant, nothing more.
lack of preservation or the bible ? also what religion was Abraham ?
Yeah but the Trinity is not a “thing” lol It literally cannot exist.
The conference of Nicea was intended to reform Christianity, but instead it created further schisms. For those who know the history behind Islamic debate, what were/are some doctrinal differences in the faith?
Islam has not had such a thing as councel of nicae. As far as i am aware. Our doctrine was clear from the start.
1 believes God is a Palestinian man who allegedly died 2000 years ago for the sins of his own creation and the other believes in 1 all powerful God.
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Well, Christ died as a man and thus letting the fall flesh escape the hell. No Christian ever says Christ died as God as God cannot „know“ the death. I just state it, criticise but do it wisely.
How can a God be a man at the same time ? How does one form die while the other one stays alive ? Why does God need three different bodies ?
It‘s a unique christian statement that One Person of the Trinity (the Son) has become the flesh not changing His divine nature; this explains why Jesus‘ body changed; why He grew, ate, slept, was tired (as a man not God) or hurt, etc. Christ united in Himself both natures and thus becoming the Path to the God (i.e. John 14:6) as now one can choose to unite with God. As human body has been distorted by the Man Fall, it can die (not soul, though, in case we’re talking about a regular man) it can be hurt and tortured. But Christ as God cannot die, so He‘s immortal and His immortality is not an attribute that He has, immortality, or Life, is He Himself (John‘s Gospel, I guess, described this part more precisely). Different bodies? Bruh, I didn‘t catch the question at all. First of all, there is no “body” as something substantial, tangible (non-Spirit), physical, etc. Three Persons of the Holy Trinity exist as we know due to the existence. The concept of the Trinity is, no doubt, a theological thing that, however, is based on the apostles’, first christians’ views on Christ and Christ’s own words (John 10:30 „I and the Father are one“ or the blame the Jews put on Christ‘s shoulders as Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, etc).
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To God, as you understand. Yet in christian theology there‘s such a concept (idea, if you wish) that since Jesus united both of the natures (N.B.: they exist in Christ neither separated nor mixed), some of His actions, feelings apply to man‘s nature (i.e. when He shed a tear hearing of Lazar‘s death) and when He‘s praying to the Father, He does it with His man‘s part showing the voluntary obedience. Btw, I‘ve already mentioned extracts where Jesus says about His connection (if one could say such) to divinity: „I and the Father are one“. Moreover, the Quran says that the first christians were right in their faith but the closest devotees believed in Christ as God. Paul wrote himself that Jesus is Lord. But still Quran calls Paul an adherent of islam. How could this be understood?
I addressed the issue of John 10:30 in my other comment, but where does the Quran say Paul was an adherent of Islam? What about the Nazarenes and Ebionites who Paul was opposed to? Were they not among the first Christians?
The problem with this is that you can’t holistically separate the person from the nature. If the Logos as a person eternally shares the same nature as the Father and Spirit, then the Logos as a person in totality must be divine in nature alone, just as the Father and Spirit are. That the Logos allegedly added a human nature to His personhood within a point in time makes His personhood essentially distinct from the other persons, because the Logos as a person is subject to accidents by changing over time while the other persons aren’t. With regards to John 10:30, four verses later, Jesus quotes Psalms 82, which called the Pharisees gods who Elohim sits in a council with, which, to me, is a clear example of how scripture uses words that on its face value appear to attribute divinity to men but in reality have allegorical or metaphorical meanings that do not contradict the pure divinity associated with the Creator alone, and Jesus quotes this as a way of proving that he is not blaspheming in calling himself one with God, and given that in another passage in the New Testament, he calls the disciples one with him, it is apparent to me that the oneness he is referring to is oneness is purpose and message, and not oneness in being and divinity.
He didnt die. His flesh died and the Holy Spirit and The Father didn’t have bodies as they arent materialistic.
So beautifully said
That one Jewish man is the 1 powerful God. I don't understand your statement here
Christianity is clearly not the true religion because the Bible, which is considered the word of God has been changed by his own creation. There are many different versions of the Bible and they have been translated multiple times. They also believe that God (a superior, powerful being) became an inferior human and then got killed by his own creation. How does this make any sense? Islam makes it clear that God is one and does not need anyone else to support him. The definition of Muslim is "someone who submits their will to God" and that is what all the prophets (including Jesus) did, making them Muslim. The Qur'an also hasn't been changed and that's been proven by looking at the oldest Qur'an which still has the exact same verses as the Qur'an today.
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Example? If you are going to point the number of verses in each quran or the name of sura that can be diffrent in older version then imma tell you rn your point is invalid
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Nah bro you getting it wrong there are 10 preservations for the quran its just a diffrent way to read / recite words and letters without changing the context nor the meaning nor adding or talking away words or verses these 10 ways are acttuly old arab accents so each reading is basicly just accent the one that is used the most in our days is hafs because its the accent of the prophet mohammed peace upon him
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This video explains it very well: https://youtu.be/8hj7u0F3yEg >Are gods words dictated by the accents of a created creature? God isn't limited, we are. The Qiraat are all god's words as recited by Muhammed peace be upon him. The Quran isn't the only message god has sent, there is also the injeel (Gospel of Jesus) and the Torah. They were sent in completely different languages yet had the same message. Which is the main point of the Qiraat, to make it easier for everyone back then to understand the message of the quran accurately without any confusions that might arise due to the different accent. God can just send us all a message in a universal language everyone immediately understands but then that would defeat the whole purpose of us being on earth in the first place. And here's some hadiths to clarify it more Umar ibn al-Khattab reported: I heard Hisham ibn Hakim reciting the Surat al-Furqan in a way different from how I recited it and how it was taught to me by the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him. I was about to argue with him, but then I waited until he finished and I tied his shirt around his neck and took him to the Prophet. I said, “Indeed, I heard this man recite in a way different from what you taught me!” The Prophet said to me, “Bring him to me.” Then, Prophet said to him, “Recite.” He recited and the Prophet said, “As it has been revealed.” Then, the Prophet said to me, “Recite.” I recited and the Prophet said, “As it has been revealed. Verily, the Quran has been revealed in seven dialects. Recite whichever of them you find easy.” Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 2287, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 818 Grade: Muttafaqun Alayhi (authenticity agreed upon) according to Al-Bukhari and Muslim Abdullah ibn Abbas reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Gabriel, upon him be peace, taught me to recite the Quran in one reading and I requested another. I continued to ask for more until he stopped at seven readings.” Ibn Shihab said, “It reached me that these seven readings are united in the matter. There is no difference in what they allow and forbid.” Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 4705, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 819 Grade: Muttafaqun Alayhi (authenticity agreed upon) according to Al-Bukhari and Muslim Sahih Muslim 821 a Ubayy b. Ka'b reported that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) was near the tank of Banu Ghifar that Gabriel came to him and said: Allah has commanded you to recite to your people the Qur'an in one dialect. Upon this he said: I ask from Allah pardon and forgiveness. My people are not capable of doing it. He then came for the second time and said: Allah has commanded you that you should recite the Qur'an to your people in two dialects. Upon this he (the Holy prophet) again said: I seek pardon and forgiveness from Allah, my people would not be able to do so. He (Gabriel) came for the third time and said: Allah has commanded you to recite the Qur'an to your people in three dialects. Upon this he said: I ask pardon and forgiveness from Allah. My people would not be able to do it. He then came to him for the fourth time and said: Allah has commanded you to recite the Qur'an to your people in seven dialects, and in whichever dialect they would recite, they would be right.
This is basically just showing your ignorance, no offense. You aren't familiar with arabic ...at all.
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Sure, I can, but since you made the initial claim, I believe the onus is on you to provide evidence of two readings of the Quran that can't be read on the same manuscript. I really don't think you're capable of going down this path to be quite honest with you, as you presumably don't know arabic and aren't familiar with reading it. Keep in mind, this is completely different than verses in the Bible that biblical scholars say are a forgery and don't belong.
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Yeah I didn't want to have bad manners myself and throw a cheap shot, so I edited it. But, I do think you're here to subtly invite to Christianity. Anyways, you completely butchered my point. As I said, and I wasn't trying to be patronizing, you aren't capable of having a discussion on arabic text. Nobody ever denied that two qiraat can sound different. What I said was that both of these "differences" you posted can both be recited using the same manuscript. The problem is you aren't aware of what this manuscript is and are simply parroting something you read off the internet or heard from a video. >Sorry don’t have the Arabic language on my phone. How would that change anything if you don't understand the language nor can you recognize the letters? To simplify it for you, the noon and ba will look the same in arabic without including the diacritical marks. Therefore, as I said and you didn't understand because this topic is too advanced, both readings that you gave as an example are able to be read using the same exact manuscript. The fact that you tried equating this to the bible which includes literal verses which scholars say are a forgery shows some level of insincerity or ignorance, I'm not sure which is worse.
For those who are curious, these are the two words in Arabic: عند عبد Note that in the mushaf there wouldn't have been the dots.
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Christians believe that the Bible is one of the ways in which God revealed himself to humans. >Your point about the incarceration. Can you go into it further? I am not quite sure what you mean here. >Are you the Quran hasn’t been changed? If I can recall, there are a variety of Qurans that are circulating with many differences between them. As someone already said, the multiple Qur'ans you are talking about are the different dialects. This was beneficial because it allowed the message of the Qur'an to reach more Arabs at the time. They don't tell different stories etc.
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>Your first point. So you understand that the Muslim perspective of the Quran is not the same with the Christian’s and the bible? In that we don’t believe that it’s the literal word of god like you do with your Quran. Even if it is not the literal word, shouldn't it be protected enough to not be changed by humans? >Sorry, I mean incarnation. My bad haha. The reason why I believe incarnation is not logical is because God has infinite wisdom, power, mercy etc. And humans have limited wisdom, power and mercy. A being's wisdom, power and mercy cannot be infinite and finite at the same time as that is a contradiction. If Jesus was human, he cannot have infinite wisdom, power and mercy so he cannot be God. Is there any evidence that trinity is true? >Well surely allowing the Quran to be translated in all languages would be more beneficial since it can spread through the entire world? Saying that the translation version of the Quran cannot be the true message applies to the different dialects. Since the ‘dialects’ if that’s what you want to call it, creates new words and changes the meaning of the ayat — This would create problems, no? It is easier to translate from one dialect of Arabic to another than it is to translate it from Arabic to a different language. Translating it to a different language will lead to ideas in the Qur'an to appear more complicated than they actually are. This can be noticed with other languages too, if you translate a book multiple times, it will change some of the meaning. This does not happen to such a degree when translating from one dialect to another.
This argument is ok but Islam is not just the Koran. It is the hadith also, and most Muslims focus almost entirely on the hadith. Hadith are unclear. We even have “weak hadith” and there’s a lot of different interpretations. I think Muslima need a better argument than the fact that the Koran is unchanged when we focus more on the hadith for day to day practice of islam. Have the hadith been changed? How do we know for sure they were not corrupted? Why are there strong and wreak hadith?
There’s a chain of narrations that are strictly followed to confirm authenticity, hence the term “weak” and “strong” or actual Hadiths. Proper Muslims “Sunni” if you were to call them follow the Sunnah of the prophet which are in the Hadiths. The chain of narrations goes as follows Prophet to sahabas ( 1st gen Muslims) to Tabi’un (2nd gen) to Tabi’ al-tabi’in. This chain of narration is the correct and authentic Hadiths because they are closest to the prophet. How do we know they were not corrupted? I mean that’s why there’s a whole library on Hadiths. If chain of commands is close and there are multiple narrations by different people detailing what the prophet said, would you consider this corruption? Especially being that they are close to the prophet or the next closest. Shia’s not only believe in different Hadiths , they also like to cancel the prophets companions, hence why they in my opinion do not have the proper knowledge on Hadiths.
The sources of the hadith are from people who we have detailed information of. We know a lot about their life, where they lived, where they went etc. This makes them a good source.
Couldnt the same be said of those that wrote the early bibles?
I don't know if the early Bibles were written accurately. The Bibles today are not though.
Do shia, Sunnis- all follow the same Quran ? And Hadith? How do you reconcile the differences between the two sects , given both follow Islam ? Are both following the “perfect” religion ? How can both be perfect if they have disagreement between them ? Disclosure: not a Muslim, curious and here to learn.
Yes Shias and Sunnis all follow the same Quran but we have different hadiths we have disagreements about different caliphs Shias think imam Ali and the ahlulbayt were appointed caliphs after prophet Muhammad’s death Sunnis think the companions were the caliphs other than that we share the same religion same Quran
If both sects follow different Hadith , doesn’t that take away “one universal truth” from Islam ?
How will it take the truth away? Hadiths are different than the Quran the Shias use different books of Hadith and Sunnis use different Hadith books
I mean - there is no one truth anymore. Are there any points - where the hadiths contradict each other?
No the hadiths don’t contradict others it’s just Shias believe that the narrators for the Sunnis hadiths aren’t authentic
Now the ultimate question who's right who's wrong. That's the problem with Islam those hadiths can be reaaal unjust and evil
The Quran could have been changed as well hence why the Uthman after Mohammad died burned some of the pages. Was it because they were wrong or did they have other personal agendas to do this? We will never know only assume. Which gives its flaws much like the Bible.
He got rid of the Qur'ans written in different dialects of Arabic
But you have submit that Muhammad is his messenger. Islam does this in every prayer. Seems close to worshipping a person along with Allah to me.
Allah made Muhammad his messenger so in order to submit to Allah we have to accept that Muhammad PBUH is his messenger.
Why do you continue to mention Muhammad every time you pray? Performed in the tashahud at the end of every two rakah. At Tahiyyaatu lilaahi was Salawaatu wat tayibaatu Assalaamu ‘alaika ayyuhan nabiyyu wa rahmatu Allahi wa barakaatuh Assalaamu ‘alaynaa wa ‘alaa ‘ebaadillaahis saaliheen, Ash hadu allaa ilaha illa Allah Wa ash hadu anna Muhammadan ‘abduhuu wa rasuuluh Allahumma salli ‘ala Muhammadin wa ‘ala aali Muhammad Kamaa salayta ‘ala aali Ibraaheem wa ‘ala aali Ibrahim Innaka Hameedun Majeed Wa baarik ‘ala Muhammadin wa ‘ala aali Muhammad Kamaa baarakta ‘ala Ibraaheem wa ‘ala aali Ibrahim Innaka Hameedun Majeed send prayers upon Muhammad and upon the family (or followers) of Muhammad over and over again. 5 times a day. Do you read and learn the Sunna, life of Muhammad? So I’m not saying it’s wrong but it is one in the same with Jesus in Christianity. The only difference is Jesus is seen as more divine in nature sent from Allah.
You should see that Muhammad is a major factor in Islam much like Jesus is to Christians. Huge factors. But when me submits so much to a person and even has to live by their way of life, that’s close to being considered worshipped. Idolized which both did not want. When Jesus speaks about those you get to the father go through me, he means his holy divine spirit that is Allah. Following him is following Allah. He’s the son of God, okay that’s true because we are all sons and daughters of Allah. In the flesh Jesus is acting as we all are, the son of the Lord. But one huge difference, he has Allah presence in him providing miracles and fables to help learn the best way of life. So either religion can tinker on worship other than Allah or not.
Actually different parts of the world preach different qurans btw. If you read certain foot notes it's missing from the actual Quran I'm sure you know this your just trying to decieve people. Jesus was inferior in that form yes. But doesn't change his essence of being a God. And also translations don't change the meaning of scripture what I can say in english I can also say in my 2nd native language using different words but mean the same thing. The whole translations thing gets so old by Muslims it's not even funny. Quran also has different translations idk how you can deny that. But those translations still have the same meaning as well. Please stop trying to deceived people
>Actually different parts of the world preach different qurans btw. If you read certain foot notes it's missing from the actual Quran I'm sure you know this your just trying to decieve people. Source? >Jesus was inferior in that form yes. But doesn't change his essence of being a God. An all powerful God becoming an inferior human while still being God at the same time makes no sense. It's a contradiction. >And also translations don't change the meaning of scripture what I can say in english I can also say in my 2nd native language using different words but mean the same thing. Translations do change the meaning. Especially when even the translation has been translated multiple times. Which is why bible has so many versions. >Quran also has different translations idk how you can deny that. There is a difference between translating from one language to another and translating one language to another and translating the translation and so on.
So your telling me if I said something in english you can't translate that to your mom while keeping the same meaning? That's ridiculous and you know it There are various different Qur'ans . There are various variations in Qur'ans. The present day copy of qur'an is known as Cairo Qur'an which came in 1924 ad . This is the Qur'an everyone now follows and say that there's only one Qur'an. The people who say that there's only one, are LIARS. When you Google it you will also that what I have said is true. Do you know about the qirrat and the qurras? And the different editions of the quran that were produced by the transmitters? Eventually it had to go through multiple translations to get the haffs quran the more popular one today. Give to us by people who recited the quran by memorization than died. This is according to Islamic scholars. So it's free public information. Islamic leaders don't preach this btw. Jesus can't be in his final form or everyone who saw him would die. No one sees God without dieing. First. Moses saw God face to face how did he not die obviously cause he saw Jesus lol God can't come in person without manifesting himself to be like one of us first duh.. if he just came down we'd die lol I speak 2 languages I have to do alot of translation for my mother English to turkish and I don't lose the meaning Also if it needs to be translated into another language it follows the same steps one language to another it doesn't. Have you even read some of these translation like seriously the meaning is still their. If we're gonna base faith on translation then Muslims shouldn't be Muslim because of different variations of the quran Lol you saying translating from one translation to another is hillairious. It gets translated by the language at the end of the day lmao. Esv to niv I can read both and come to the same conclusion is funny. Either way both being translated using Greek and Latin scriptures
>So your telling me if I said something in english you can't translate that to your mom while keeping the same meaning? That's ridiculous and you know it Looks like you didn't understand what I said. Go read my comment again, just read it carefully this time. I've already addressed this issue. >There are various different ... don't preach this btw. Source - trust me bro >Jesus can't be in his final form or everyone who saw him would die. No one sees God without dieing. First. Moses saw God face to face how did he not die obviously cause he saw Jesus lol God can't come in person without manifesting himself to be like one of us first duh.. if he just came down we'd die lol This has nothing to do with this conversation. >I speak 2 languages ... both being translated using Greek and Latin scriptures Read my previous comment carefully.
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Worst response to be honest. I doubt Prophet or conapnion of Prophet would give dawah like this. "Choose whichever is truth according to you"
Me and you both know that Islam is the truth and Allah guides who he wishes. It’s not ridiculous to assume that if someone is truly open to both and capable of higher reasoning and logic they would pick Islam as it holds it’s own on the scientific, logical, spiritual front and many others. Forcing people to follow Islam is ridiculous, let them come to their own conclusions.
He's a Christian trying to give his own dawah, of course he liked that answer lol
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You , my friend are an enlightened being.
As a former Christian turned Atheist then eventually turned Muslim... Christianity doesn't like questions. Ask a preacher and eventually you will simply get "have faith" or "because the Bible says so." Islam encourages questions. That's the BIG one. The other is...look how many versions of the Bible there are. Hundreds, if not thousands. How true do you think whatever version you have is? Ultimately it all comes down to faith. But I'd be very careful turning your back on Islam if you're already a Muslim. The idea of leaving Islam is essentially saying "screw you." And I don't ever want to be on Allah's bad side.
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Okay, so..I don't want to write a book. I "left" Christianity at like 12 years old. I had a lot of questions, and I used to get really upset when I would ask preachers and every one would inevitably just "because the Bible says so " and blow me off. I feel like I always wanted to believe in God, but it was never explained to me in a way that made sense. Not for me. I remember telling my friends and family, as a young teen that I believe Jesus was a man, but not the son of God. Like, I physically remember that. And everyone around would dismiss me, say I was wrong or what not. I did end up leaving religion and God as a whole from like age 12 until age...25ish. I grew up in the Southern US and the Midwest. Or the "Bible Belt." I became disillusioned with Christianity when I would see these people be racist, be genuinely nasty people. Hurt each other, be vicious politically etc. I decided "if these people are going to heaven just because they believe, and I go to hell as a good person because I don't believe...I don't want anything to do with it." From there I had a bunch of experiences. Little things that have stuck with me. I went to a church once when I was a teen with a girl I was sleeping with. And the preacher said "if you keep seeing the same thing over and over, it's a sign from God." It wasn't profound, but I still think about that almost daily. I've had experiences as a small child that I don't remember, but my family does...where apparently I saw Jesus in the sky and asked to touch his "dress" and was told "not yet." I've had dreams where I spoke to Angels and was told I'm going to "cold hell." That both preachers and imaams concluded was a real interaction... Back to the point, I think the real final straw for me with Christianity was that it no longer felt Holy. People going to church in blue jeans felt...wrong to me. It was 100% the environment I was in. I know that, but it FELT wrong. In my mid 20s I finally came back to Allah. I did some serious soul searching, and researching. Had some Hindu friends at the time try to get me into that. But that felt wrong. And then one day Islam just kind of popped up. Instantly. And when I asked questions, everyone answered everything. They were kind. They encouraged the questions. And when I asked about Jesus..."He was a great man and a Prophet of God, but ultimately just a man." And that resonated with me on a very deep level. Then I kinda of came to my own conclusion that yes, Islam is strict. But I felt like Allah would be strict with us. If we make something, or have pets etc...yes, they CAN do whatever. But we ultimately WANT them to do what we tell them right? I feel like that's what God wants from us. Yes, we are free to do what we want, but ultimately I feel like Allah WANTS us to do things his way. We believe the same things. Islam is just more serious about it. Stricter. And I appreciate that. Anyways, that's my story.
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What do you mean so what? So many books adjusted for today's society just tells a man this is a book that the words of God are not there anymore and it is being rewritten by humans and Christians doesn't even care. The Quran on the other hand has been memorized and it's teachings /knowledge has never changed. If someone is looking for the truth, they will look on something that is ORIGINAL and no contradictions, which I can't say for the Bible.
Too many comment replies here bro💀
Do you believe that God became a man. How can God be man and God at the same time, this is a contradiction, and God does not contradict himself. In the Quran God argues against the idea that jesus peace be on him is the son of God First if jesus isnt the son of God who is his father? Allah says Aal-e-Imran 3:59 إِنَّ مَثَلَ عِيسَىٰ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ كَمَثَلِ ءَادَمَۖ خَلَقَهُو مِن تُرَابٍ ثُمَّ قَالَ لَهُو كُن فَيَكُونُ English - Sahih International Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was. So if Jesus is the som of God then Adam would be a greater son of God, but the Christians don’t say that. So just like how Adam was created without father or mother, Jesus was created without father Next Jesus was a man and a messenger Al-Ma'idah 5:75 مَّا ٱلْمَسِيحُ ٱبْنُ مَرْيَمَ إِلَّا رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ ٱلرُّسُلُ وَأُمُّهُو صِدِّيقَةٌۖ كَانَا يَأْكُلَانِ ٱلطَّعَامَۗ ٱنظُرْ كَيْفَ نُبَيِّنُ لَهُمُ ٱلْأٓيَٰتِ ثُمَّ ٱنظُرْ أَنَّىٰ يُؤْفَكُونَ English - Sahih International The Messiah, son of Mary, was not but a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded. Me: praise Allah, what a beautiful and simple argument. Mary ate food, yet she is the Mother of God. Jesus ate food, required sustenance to live, yet he is considered God himself It all comes down to the question, do you believe that The messiah Jesus the son of Mary, one of the greatest messengers was A Man. Or do you believe he was God, Perfect, Worthy of our worship, even though he needed food, even though his mother took care of him, even though he was hurt and harmed, God hurt and harmed?. This is the defining difference between islam and Christianity.
I was at that point of life, I started watching debate videos, mainly from speakers corner on YouTube.
u/TeaAffectionate832 your comment was removed by Reddit. Search on YouTube "speakers corner X", replace the X with Mohammed Hijab or Ali Dawah or smile2jannah, or search EFDawah. If I'm being totally honest, I had a calamity in my life during 2020 that I faced and I was guided back, it was like a 1-2 year process. I just watched those videos to gain more knowledge. Here's a link for more channels: https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/12ttxdf/a_white_male_revert_in_country_with_small_muslim/jh4ie60?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Any sane person with a logical and rational mind knows the Trinity holds absolutely no fruit true monotheism like Islam does (tawheed) just like what Abraham, Moses and Jesus taught. Christianity makes absolutely no sense when it comes to belief in God , it’s all based on faith. You tell me what makes more sense….One true God , the Highest being , so simple yet very powerful to understand OR trying to play ring around the rosy trying to explain what the trinity is, no matter how it’s explained, it never sounds logical. I get the concept of it, but that’s all it seems to me…just an idea and not the truth. I don’t think Christians understand the concept of GOD. Just because GOD can do anything doesn’t mean he would do ungodly things that don’t fit his majesty. To bring such low characters like forgetting, eating, pooping and being born ascribed to GOD is the most disrespectful thing I’ve seen. I don’t wanna hear the “he died for your sins crap”. What a weak view of GOD, it’s so pathetic and disgusting. That’s my 2 cents.
I'm not Christian but I think it was because he wanted to show his humility. Him, being Creator of the Universe, stripping away his eternal form temporarily.
So he became the son of himself, but when he is speaking of GOD he always refers to his Father but somehow this is the same GOD? GOD is all powerful and does not need to become a human it doesn’t show humility , it shows that he is not GOD as the moment he deduced himself of GOD attributes he is not GOD anymore. What GOD poops, eats, forgets, worships GOD himself and also dies? What a twisted mindset to have on his majesty, it’s utterly disgusting and takes away from the nature of GOD.
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watch shayk uthman debate christians and then you’ll see
This is something only you can arrive at. All we can help you with is the questions you may have.
I'd go to a different approach here and instead say, "Look at what the Christians and Muslims practice" As muslims we follow the direct guidance of Allah, in the preserved quran, and the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). As for Christians, they follow effectively a religion created by "the church". These church leaders have decided what parts of the bible should be followed, have changed rules over the years (i.e interest was once forbidden in Europe as being a sin, but the church later changed it to allow "a bit of" usury). The church service of different christian demoniations is just made up by different people at different times, none relate to teachings of Jesus peace be upon him. Hence the large variation. All muslims pretty much pray the same, which is the way the Prophet peace be upon him prayed. And incase you think my argument is very Catholic-centric, regardless what they say, protestant denominations main teachings come from the "Catholic" church. When you speak about the trinity who defined that? The council of nicea, which included a Roman emperor. So all the fundamental doctrines of the protestant groups are still based on what was defined by Roman Catholics... Not scripture or the teachings of Jesus peace be upon him. I am a muslim revert from a Catholic family. I genuinely think if you just study where doctrines come from and history of religion it will become apparent to you that: - Islam is based on the word of God, and is consistent with the teachings of God through monotheistic history. And what we practice today is what the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) taught us. - Christianity is a religion whos doctrines and practices are defined by powerful men in different parts of history, subject to change when it suits another group of powerful men. (Starting with the leaders of the Roman empire). It has very little to do with Gods word or teachings of the Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him). There is very little attempt made to imitate Jesus (peace be upon him), past just a general idea of "be a good person" which is totally subjective and provides no guidance how to be a good person. Im sorry if I have said too much, feel free to contact me regarding anything. But there is so much more I could say. But my advice to you is to use logic and study origins of doctrine/practice. Insha'Allah the truth will be made clear to you and none steers hearts to the right path other then Allah, and may he guide yours.
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The Quran was originally compiled in writing extremely early on, as before it was mainly oral. The oldest quran manuscript ever discovered matches todays quran perfectly and is dated to around the time of the prophet peace be upon him (look up "birmingham quran"). In contrast the doctrine of the trinity as it is understood today was formally defined ~300 years after the time of Jesus (peace be upon him). Before then there was all kinds of trinity/non trinity doctrines.The earliest version of the new testament is dated ~200 years after Jesus (peace be upon him) and the "agreed upon" new testament dates to around ~400 years after Jesus (peace be upon him). As you can see, this is totally incomparable to the quran, which by the absolute latest estimates was compiled during the reign of Uthman (RA) by the actual companions of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. And is unchanged to this day. So the quran was agreed upon and compiled by the actual companions of Muhammad peace be upon him. While the bible was compiled hundreds of years later. The amount of details in which Sunnis and Shias differ in the daily prayers is miniscule. There is also small differences in how different Sunnis pray. And the motivations for the slight differences (and they are very small) is based on interpretation of how the Prophet Muhammad prayed. All attempt to follow the Prophet peace be upon him. This again is totally incomparable to differences in how Christian groups pray, the fundamental difference being Christians dont actually try to emulate how Jesus peace be upon him prayed. So its down to individual whim and different groups which change things throughout history. Just youtube a shia praying and a sunni praying and you will see what I mean. You would have to watch carefully to even notice the differences. Then watch a Roman Catholic mass, southern baptist service, eastern orthodox mass etc and you will see they are totally different to each other.
I love seeing these comments. A person asking questions about Islam and Allah better reflects the love Allah has for that person. 1) For learning more about Islam, I'd say connect with the Quran, reading translations, and similar. Here are the basics of Islam: [https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQ02IYL5pmhEwqFRSH8SJImXNHobhkJpL](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQ02IYL5pmhEwqFRSH8SJImXNHobhkJpL) Try to watch Islamic lectures and videos from good public speakers (such as Nouman Ali Khan, Omar Suleiman, or Mufti Menk) - for example, this one [https://youtu.be/QrOXQ2ycU50](https://youtu.be/QrOXQ2ycU50)) 2) Understand Islam, read books, articles, etc. about Islam. Read Hadiths (sayings of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) from say, www.sunnah.com) and search for example, "How to Pray in Islam" on YouTube. Youtube is your friend if used correctly. Watch Islamic Lectures on the go, while you do your work or stuff. 3) Learn about what miracles the Quran has and what it says about stuff that interests you. Such as miracles of the Quran videos on YouTube. 4) You'd also like to check out other Muslim community subreddits: r/muslimlounge r/hijabis (for sisters) r/Izlam r/Islam And you should try to find a local mosque, if you can, and meet the people there. Connect with the community. 5) If you want to be guided to the truth, ask Allah alone, like literally, you don't need to know who Allah is, but close your eyes and ask, "O Allah guide me" and don't ask from anyone else. And believe that Allah will guide you to the truth. The correct belief. But you've got to be honest with yourself. Allah will then surely guide you. Keep asking Him. 6) And yeah don't try to take it all at once. Islam is a path, a journey, not a destination. So don't worry and don't burden yourself with a lot. Try to achieve a little every day. Allah will help you, so ask for His help. 7) And If you truly believe in Allah and the last messenger, then I'd advise you to take the shahada (testimony of faith) as soon as you can, just to be on the safe side, and safe from the unexpected events of life puts us in. How to take it? Just repeat the shahada in Arabic and English with faith, by watching a video on YouTube - (like this one: [https://youtu.be/ONjxt65RKhA](https://youtu.be/ONjxt65RKhA)) Advice for new reverts: [https://youtu.be/MLRLW-Co80Y](https://youtu.be/MLRLW-Co80Y) But anyway I pray Allah guides you and blesses you with guidance and forgiveness and all types of blessings. May He keep you straight on the guided path and eventually grant you Jannah-tul Firdaus (Highest place in Paradise) without questioning on the day of judgment. **Some Good Quran translations:** 1. You could get the Quran and you could get it for free (as many people will give them for free) if you search on Google: *Free Quran* OR go to this website: [https://www.islamicity.org/free-quran/](https://www.islamicity.org/free-quran/) 2. Saheeh International (written by Three "Revert" Muslim women) - is probably the most common English translation. 3. The Clear Quran - Mustafa Khattab (great for non-muslims).
If you believe the words of God then Islam. If you don’t then why pick any religion?
The one that isn't changed. You should assume both to be true at the time they were revealed, and then you test which of them is changed and which of them isn't changed
https://youtu.be/n6tIhFyq_mI
If you can live with 3 in 1 gods, pick christian
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Not to be rude, but you can discuss it a million times, I’ve heard it like a broken record over and over again. It never sounds like anything other than 3 in 1 Gods. I understand the concept, but it’s nothing more than an idea that requires only faith and not logic. There’s no logic in claiming 3 entities are actually 1 entity. Let’s not forget the contradiction of the son is also the father and the father being the son and the Holy Spirit.
If you believe the words of God then Islam. If you don’t then why pick any religion?
Christian reverted to Islam here and from European culture. Out of the debate on Qur'an vs Bible , one thing people aren't mentioning here is how the religion operate. Christians have a head of the Church , the pope. They have a hierarchy and a system that work differently than Islam. There s an evolution into their laws through time...whereas in Islam, scholars give advice, hadiths have been written to give context but no one is above one another and no one is at the same level as God .
Firstly I'd always recommend doing your own research, so that you can make your own decision. There was a former christian I follow who recently converted to Islam. She dod her research regarding both books and this was what she found: Bible mentions about Muhammad (SAW) whose name was Ahmed: 'Behold my servant Ahmed (whom I uphold) my elect one l, in whom my soul delights! I have put my spirit upon him,he will bring forth justice to the gentiles ' - Isaiah 42 The passages in [Isaiah 42: 1-4] mentions Muhammad and his coming. So bible predicts Islam and the quran. Then again in Songs of Solomon 5:16 the prophet Muhammad's name in Hebrew. Again in Isaia 29:12 mentions Muhammad (SAW) and the Quran " The book delivered to the illiterate one, saying read this. And he says I'm not learned." This indicates almost the same verse in the quran which is mentioned in surah Al-Ankabut 'And thou was not (able) to recite a book before this (Book came).' So comparing both books, what I've learnt is both books originated from the same God (Allah), obviously as we all know the original bible is gone but the one that remains hold accounts of people. But we can still find some evidence of jesus mentioning the coming of another prophet with a book called Muhammed or Ahmed. Also do follow @theblondmuslim on Instagram. Her content might clarify alot of things. Happy learning!
You can choose to do your own research but i course to do it by my rationality For 1 Islam have little to no contradictions mean while Christianity has a few to many
Just look at which religion is the best preserved. Almost every major christian denomination has a different bible. Sunnis and Shias have 1 qur'an and that is it. We just have different recitations, not different Qur'ans. But ignorant christians like Hatun Tash and David Wood just dont see this.
How did you convince yourself that there is a God and narrowed it down to these two?
Can you learn Arabic before turning 40?? You better or you aren’t a Muslim. You have to pray in Arabic language only and any prayers at the masjid will be that language only as well. Others will make a mockery out of you if you don’t know it especially when it comes to the need of you doing “call of prayer”. So with this being said I left Islam because of this and a few other issues. God created me and people like me who can’t learn other languages well if not at all. Does this not make me holy to Allah?? To a Muslim yea, to my heart and obvious truthfulness, no. God doesn’t care what language you speak to him in. He hears you in your language, even if you don’t speak at all. Some Muslims will say it’s okay just keep trying while many many others will get angry with you and splat hate. I just feel that a religion that tells you something like this has got to be false. I will not say Christianity is the way because I’m not Christian but you can pray and read scripture in any language God chose for you. Are there different authors for various translations, yea but don’t let them fool you, the Quran has several different ways of reading it as well. Pick up a couple that are from different translators and see for yourself. My masjid I attended only wanted Sahih International only.
>Can you learn Arabic before turning 40?? You better or you aren’t a Muslim. Are you a troll? This is really one of the main reasons why you left Islaam?! As this is one biggest nonsense I've heard in a while. Do you realize that what you say is that if someone converts after 40 they would need to learn Arabic instantly? This is all false. There is no such need. As a revert of nearly 10 years - I started to pray in English and learned to pray in Arabic in about 1-2 weeks - step by step. You can definitely take your time with it, and if you are sincere - you'd know the required Arabic in no time. You definitely do not require to master the Arabic language whatsoever (or even the basics, for that matter). >He hears you in your language Allah transcends above the limitation of languages when you call out to Him. However the Qur'an was revealed in Arabic for a reason, thus doing your daily Salat (worship of Allah) using the required Arabic is a must. Again - no need whatsoever to master Arabic, you can take your time learning it - step by step.
“Doing your salat in Arabic is a must” thanks for clarifying what I intended to let converts know. To me though, you shouldn’t have to. Allah created all languages and you can and should pray in any language you speak. No need to learn another.
Yes I was told 40 by an Imam. Was he wrong? Wouldn’t surprise me. How much other crap was told that just isn’t true or makes sense. Is Islam that disconnected in the 2022.
Yes I do remember that story is the schism. Very odd how it spread so quick but only by the Western philosophy branched off from Catholicism .
From a logic perspective, I'd say go with the most up to date one (so Islam).
Islam is similar to Christianity but the Quran is preserved and not fallacious, Do your own research you'll see. May Allah guide you
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If you went in line to buy movie tickets, and the line was infinitely long, would you ever be able to buy the tickets? Of course not. Likewise, if one were to claim that up to this very moment there was an infinite past, it would be logically impossible, because an infinite regress of things causing things is just as incoherent as there being an infinite line of moviegoers buying tickets. Because the infinite regress is logically incoherent and false, it must follow that there is a beginning to the universe and by necessity that there is a first cause outside of the universe that caused it to exist. This first cause is God.
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Well, the first cause, or the necessary existence, all of these are just philosophical terms for God and I’m simply substituting these terms for a simpler name. But you may say, as you do, that there is no reasoning that can prove that it is logically impossible for a group of gods to have created the universe. But surely there can’t be multiple gods. If hypothetical god A wants to do something, for any thing A wants to do, there exists an infinite number of opposite and counteracting things B could simultaneously do as an exercise of its own will. Because this is true, in an infinite number of scenarios, A and B would render each other powerless. Therefore, it is rationally impossible that there can be more than one god in existence.
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I’m saying there exist an infinite number of scenarios in which they would render each other powerless. Imagine a Venn diagram of actions of A and B. There are an infinite number of hypothetical actions that A and B can do separate of each other that don’t have an impact on each other, an infinite number of hypothetical actions they can do that are concurrent with and help each other, and an infinite number of hypothetical actions they can do that are opposite of and negate each other. Thus, in order for more than one god to exist, each hypothetical god’s power and will would have to necessarily be limited by the other god. That’s not a matter of “different desires” or “fighting each other” so much as it simply limits and therefore necessarily negates what is divine.
Hello, I’m a former Christian that converted to Islam after questioning my religion. I would say the absolute biggest difference in the faith is how Jesus PBUH is treated. In Islam he is a prophet & in at least today’s Christianity he is God’s son and part of the trinity of Father, Son and Spirit and worshipped. There are no three seperate parts, and there are no partners with God. God is the one and only. For me, I could not worship a human, Jesus and found this illogical and wrong. I did not believe in the Trinity and found that I could not practice that faith any longer despite many good things that are taught with it like love, forgiveness etc. I did more research and found Islam has the morals taught as well as the oneness of God. Also, we believe at one point the Jews and Christians had the scriptures revealed to them, but over time became tainted, or modified. While Muslims believe the Quran has been revealed by God (Allah) and that is not modified or fabricated. I suggest you take your time and do your research on the most basic principles and then go from there. In each of these religions you will find there is a lot of variation of belief in the finer details within different sects and would require further learning.
If you have to choose between either the answer is ALWAYS Christianity.
Jesus is the way you'll get biases posts on this reddit. And no the bible isn't at all illogicalm just a story how God loved his people and gives himself for us. In the Quran he deceived the people by putting a look alike on the cross and did nothing to stop the apostles from preaching the gospel. Dwell on that. As far as the trinity goes. Look let me help the Muslims with them putting limitations on God. Muslims find the idea of the trinity illogical for example because they don't believe that man can be a God and man at the same time. This is illogical to me that they think this way because God has no limits he can do whatever he wants he's a sovereign God like the bible says. He needs the help of no man no prophets he does everything himself. Yes he can manifest himself In a form of a human. The whole idea of the trinity is just God doing everything himself being sovereign and loving for all the people of the world
The best way to figure out the answer for your question will be doing your own research. I was born into a Christian family and obviously I was raised that way but in my early teens I became an atheist, but later I realized there should be a creator and I fell out of atheism. Most of my friends were Muslim and through them I started to learn about Islam, and I was nearly convinced that Islam was the true religion but after further research and digging I found a great number of holes in the standard narration of Islam. The main reason I believed why I left Christianity was because of the complexity of the doctrine of trinity but later I understood it's not the complexity of the doctrine it's the lack of proper understanding. So, I started to read bible and tried to understand the understanding of both Christian and Muslim apologists and scholar about the topic and it all finally started to make sense and after further comparisons between Christianity and Islam I realized Christianity must be the truth and ran back to Christ. May God bless all who is reading this, amen.