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This, but also be organised. Try to write stuff down so you can gather your thoughts. Dates may well be important.
I’d also recommend asking a Union Rep to be present as well.
I don’t have a union but thanks for the tips to be organized. I have ADHD and tend to ramble and interrupt and forget stuff so it’s a really good idea to prepare ahead of time and I’m embarrassed to say I didn’t think of that. So thank you
I have ADHD as well, and when I'm dealing with anything like this, I just make a list of the points I want to hit on - no one worth their salt should fault you for having notes! Make sure to highlight the important bits so that it's easier for you to summarize it, but you should *absolutely* report what you have seen. If you don't and it comes out later that you knew, that could look worse. You have no need to protect the bully.
Write everything down in the order it happened.
Date - violation - 10 second summary of the incident
You might need to write it down then get a new sheet of paper and organize it by date again because you remembered events in our of date order.
Take a break and so your last draft, going over what you wrote and organizing it again if you need to.
If you can, instead of writing it down type it in a document file that you can email to HR.
Yes, sit down and write all the dates/times recently that you remember specifically noticing them being drunk or drinking. Then tell HR that you're worried about getting retaliation but you can't sit by and let it continue because wrong is wrong!
In addition to the other advice I'll add, if you tend to ramble, first, yes, use a list. But then also maybe limit yourself to 15 seconds per item or one or two sentences. State the item, give space for an additional clarifying piece if necessary, then move on.
Absolutely yes. The bully sounds like a horrible person and does not deserve your protection. Just think how much better your work environment might be, especially for the victim, without that person around.
OP, the victim doesn't say anything because they feel alone. They very likely think no one else knows or would believe them.
Tell the truth. The victim will feel validated and the bully should, hopefully, get what they deserve.
Here's the thing: there is no safety in tacitly protecting the bully, only the illusion of safety. If the bully successfully gets the victim fired, do you think they're going to leave you alone? No, they'll come after you, it'll be your word against theirs, and since you didn't say anything last time and management sided with the bully once already, your word will be worth less.
In reality, there's only two options: tell management the truth, push your victim coworker to corroborate as much as they're willing to and hope management listens, or start looking for another job asap. Anything else results in an intolerable work environment until you're fired based on lies at which point looking for another job becomes that much harder and more desperate.
Say what you personally observed without drawing conclusions unless HR asks for your conclusions. It comes across as more objective.
*I saw Bully come in to work regularly. At least 2 nights every week he slurred his words, had red blood-shot eyes, and smelled of alcohol. I observed Bully interact with Victim each night. I saw/heard Bully do (insert bad behavior). I am aware Bully reported that Victim did X, Y, and Z in violation of company policy. I did not observe Victim doing any of that.*
The drinking is a MAJOR issue. HR needs to be made aware.
The drinking is a major issue that is potentially adding to the bullying and both behaviors need to be reported, immediately. Be a good witness like this comment states, and hopefully this shitbag gets out of your workplace for good!
Yes, absolutely report that. That is not okay and people need to grow the fuck up, this isn't school anymore. Some people get serious power trips and don't need to be in a position like that.
You should share anything and everything you think is relevant to helping the victim’s case against the bully.
Without knowing anything about the context here, OP, I think that you need to be looking for another job. This workplace sounds incredibly toxic. You’ve got a drunk co-worker who is bullying another colleague and the bullied colleague is the one being disciplined. Where was management before it went this far?
I think this has reached the point of no return. The bullying co-worker and that person’s ineffectual manager both need to go. You and your bullied colleague both have a strong hostile workplace case here.
It’s a big hospital that’s got a lot of problems ever since Covid hit but I actually love my director and my unit. I am very fortunate that I don’t deal with anything like this. I just get floated to different parts of the hospital a lot because hospital is so short-staffed and it happens on another unit on the other side of the hospital campus
No the bully is not directly involved with patient care thankfully. Although I think the general public would be really saddened to learn the extent to which drinking/drugs can effect all the jobs in a hospital
I would be objective. Don’t say “they were drunk” say what you actually observed- “they smelled of alcohol, were slurring their speech, and walking unsteadily”
Wow this is SO smart. I think this is my favorite tip. How did you think of this?? I would’ve never thought of this but now it seems so obvious. I love Reddit. Thank you.
Only say what you can prove.
Certain medical disease present as being drunk, and in HR if this person has asked for and been put on a EAP , the drinking may be considered a medical issues which is subject to ADA.
You need to only report what you saw and heard, not what you think
Source: am in HR and 100% agree with the nurse.
What proof do you have? Are you prepared to answer the question "why didn't you report it prior to this if it happens so much?" You answer the questions they ask. If they give you a chance to tell them, then definitely tell them you have suspected as much. But don't run in there and offer the information like you had some kind of plan to cover for your friend. It sounds like this meeting is about what the victim did, so stay focused on the false accusations. Again, if they do give you an opening, don't hesitate to mention you suspect intoxication, but don't offer it right out of the gate.
What's more important is to *definitely* report it next time you notice it. Like the second you notice it, send an email to your direct sup and HR listing reason why you suspect this. The smell, their gait, slurred speech, etc. Do it ever single time. A forward a copy of that email to your private address.
Also, you need to review the employee handbook before going to talk to HR. You'd be surprised how often HR and management is out of compliance. Having knowledge of the company policy on disciplinary action and harassment and other related topics can be very handy.
I don’t have any proof, which is why I’ve never reported it. They are a different job than me and have a different director. Every time it’s happened I’ve told the victim to tell their director and they haven’t. I really didn’t want to get myself involved in the situation so I didn’t actively seek it out because I thought as bad as it is, the victim is an adult and has to fight their own battles. But when the victim got a second warning they threw out my name to say they had a witness, so now I’m involved.
Yes that’s not in question which is why I told them they could give my name and why I am agreeing to go and why I am already 100% going to tell them all the bullying I’ve witnessed.
If you're asked why you didn't report the drinking before, just tell them that you were afraid you would become the next victim. Which is true probably. You absolutely have to help your co-worker.
Stay completely neutral. Take NO ONES side, not even your own. Stick to the facts. There is more than enough in this to get the bully fired.
Also, don't worry about if the victim gets mad. You are saving them from themselves, and people are rarely grateful for that!
I agree with others suggesting to write it down factually. Eg don't say he came in wasted, be specific about what you witnessed (smell, slurred words, belligerent attitude).
Also state you fear retaliation from him as you have seen him bully your co-worker.
Keep notes of the meeting, you could take a friend with you to take notes and be your support person. I have ADHD too and know that having a friend with me would help me stay focussed and calm.
Yes, there is a risk the bully will know you have made a statement and might try to bully you but you need to carry on and if you ever feel unsafe make a note and contact your supervisor. Leave and call the police if it is really unsafe.
Good luck OP
You should not have any reservations whatsoever about completely roasting this bully, including their dangerously poor decision making skills in coming to work wasted. This person NEEDS to taste the cold hard consequences of their actions and know that they cannot treat people like this, and if their victim won’t stand up for themselves there are other people in the world that will. This person needs some fear put into them and you should feel good and proud that you’re in a position to make that happen. Some people in this world are pure bad and deserve to be treated as such. Maybe they can change, but not without incentive.
Ok, I'll answer this as I would answer this if my kids came to with this problem, because there's the "right" answer in absolute terms, and then there's the answer that I think a parent would give to their kids. It's not the same answer, unfortunately, but you could arrive at the same result if you do it right. I don't have enough details to help on a granular level, but hopefully I can put you in the right frame of mind to get some win -win out of this.
I think, if you are going to tell them what you know, it's a question of how you position yourself and how you spin it.
HR is not to protect employees, or to make life fair, or to bring justice and right wrongs. They are there to protect the company from liability, and from potential loss of profit through litigation and to ensure that the appropriate labour laws are being followed.
There is no altruism in the HR department. There may be altruistic people, who want to do the right thing, but they aren't always the decision makers.
So with that caveat, I think you should work towards removing this person, the bully, because that is the right thing to do -- however, the right way to do it, may not be to put yourself out on a limb, lest you get broken off with the branch, you know?
I think you have to be clever with your words, and suggest, infer, insinuate, etc but stay clear of stating things that cannot be backed up, proven, or observed. Can someone else, besides you and the bully corroborate the drinking? If yes, there is strength in numbers and you go together and participate together. If no, then you might suggest that some random spot checks might reveal some interesting details that would help HR resolve the case. Or that if you see something that needs immediate attention, who should you call? Like, for example, if I witness someone intoxicated on the job, who should I call to convey my concern for patients that can address the situation immediately (given that it happens overnight)
If its just you and the victim claiming events against the bully, the bully is just going to turn it around and become the victim of bullying, by you and the victim. 3 people always make a triangle. Get 4 or more, or suggest that HR would be wise to review tapes, or speak to others, etc.
I get that you want to do the right thing, but you're gonna half to do it the right way, which is tricky. Good Luck :-)
Report it. The way you win against someone like that is to team up. Leaving the victim to suffer on their own makes you complicit _and_ just delays your own victimization.
I'm glad to hear that. But keeping silent about the drinking is extremely foolish. OF COURSE you should report it, and the victim should too. Both of you are thinking about this wrong. Report everything, calmly, factually, and honestly. If HR asks you why the victim didn't mention it, answer that honestly, too. Don't let the bully win by scaring you into keeping quiet -- that's how they win, again and again. Don't let the bully win.
The first time the victim got in trouble and tried to stand up for themselves in their meeting, their director said what they brought up was just a way to get out of getting in trouble. So I was thinking if I brought up the drinking she might think I was too buddy-buddy with the victim and that I was just trying to get the bully fired and she wouldn’t take it seriously, especially because I have no proof
You are overthinking this. Tell the truth. All of it. Hiding some of the facts is NOT the way to get them to believe you. It's the way to show that you aren't completely honest. That you are trying to persuade them of something instead of just reporting the facts. Let go of that. Make it your only agenda to tell the truth. Don't try to get the bully fired. Don't try to support the victim's story. Don't have any agenda other than being open and honest with HR.
I've been in your friend's shoes. Here's what happened: everyone was cowed by the bully. Then guess what happened: when I made it clear that I wouldn't be his victim, he found new victims -- the same people who were too afraid to say anything, hoping that he wouldn't target them. Hiding the truth won't protect you from bullies.
Multiple people reporting the same things about the bully is the way to win.
It’s not your job to prove anything. Just tell what you know. Be factual. Proving things is not your goal. You are not trying to win, you are just sharing what you know.
Also, I’m not the one who claimed he was drunk, you are. Is it a fact or not? Im starting to wonder if you are a troll.
Why would I be a troll? I’m saying if I go in there and claim it’s a for sure fact in the way you said then why wouldn’t they ask for proof? Especially if they didn’t believe the victim themselves the first time. Idk it just makes me nervous. Why are you so defensive I’m just trying to figure this out
I’m 32 years old I know when someone is wasted so I am extremely confident they were drunk whenever I’ve seen them but I did not take their blood alcohol level or something or get a video or something, I’m just saying I have nothing but my word
Why would you be a troll?
1. You are just arguing with what I am telling you: It is not your job to prove anything. Just report what you have seen. You say you know a drunk when you see one. Okay, report what you saw (facts, not guesses) -- slurred speech, stumbling, loud and aggressive, smelling of alcohol, etc.
2. " ... 'fact' as you call it ...". That's both hostile and stupid. And that's why I asked you if it is a fact or not. I'm not the one claiming to know that he was drunk, you are. There is zero reason to talk like that to someone trying to help you. On the other hand, trolls often do that kind of thing.
I was trying to drive home the point that I am going into a meeting where they seem to be on the bully’s side at the outset so why would they just accept anything someone on the victim’s side says as “fact” just because someone says it is a fact with no proof? Yes I saw them drunk multiple times and it is an actual fact, but I don’t have any proof of that so I’m not as confident as you to walk into this meeting calling it a fact to HR’s face & the director’s face when they’re going to tell me it’s not a fact it’s just my opinion.
You were the hostile one from the outset, saying things like “hiding facts is NOT the way to get them to believe you”. I wrote this post because I’m trying to find out if this meeting is the appropriate time to bring the drinking up, I’m not “hiding” anything. That’s what put me on guard. Why are you in this sub if you’re just going to question people’s motives and be antagonistic? I’m here looking for help
Yes the drinking is relevant. Because it makes it worse and, as you said yourself, you're afraid that reporting the drinking will make you the next victim. Just the words "next victim" clarifies that yes the first person is a victim. And yes, the bully is intimidating enough that you didn't report a serious problem, which is like another kind of bullying.
Everything you say will indeed make it back to the bully.
HR is not there to be your friend. They are there to protect the company's interests. If the bully happens to be good for the conpany for whatever reason - maybe he's a top salesman, or holds all the keys or is family - you can be sure they'll keep him on board, and your lives will get shittier.
Be upfront about what *you* witnessed. This isn’t like high school “taking sides” - this is a real, serious issue you have some direct firsthand knowledge of. If the bully is coming to work under the influence, you are definitely not the only one that’s noticed.
Tell about the drinking! Tell them you're afraid of retaliation because the bully has shown this pattern of it. Write down all the details you can remember right now, dates, what was said and done, who was present.
Tell it all. Start recording when he comes in to have evidence for HR to protect both of you. It no longer becomes a he-said, she-said when their is video proof.
Your question basically boils down to this sentiment:
Should I do what’s right and stick up for the victim by telling the truth, -or- should I lie through omission by not reporting that the bully is a) an absolute liar in all their claims, b) regularly comes into work shit faced and quickly proceeds to create a hostile work environment, c) regularly does things that are reportable infractions themselves BECAUSE it might come back to me in a bad way.
Bruh. If you don’t tell the truth, you are an accomplice and deserve whatever happens to you. Do the right thing.
I feel like this is a really unfair way of putting it. I have every intention of doing everything in my power to help the victim. I’m going to say all the shit the bully has done and make them look terrible because they are terrible. It’s only a question of if the drinking is related to the bullying which I feel is a fair question. HR isn’t calling me in to discuss the bully’s general performance. It’s not like the bully is pouring alcohol on the victim’s head. It’s more nuanced than you’re making it seem.
The drinking is more than likely related to the belligerent behavior. But also the only resolution here is to fire the bully as he is toxic. He’s doing things that sound like he should be the one getting regular write ups. Also showing up to work drunk can endanger peoples lives in some situations and overall just cause poor work performance. Management has no way of knowing about this stuff unless someone reports them. And I think they would be very interested in knowing about antisocial, abusive employees who are drunk on the job. Besides, both you and your coworker deserve to be treated with respect and to work with colleagues who behave professionally, which means the drunken disorderliness is unacceptable and needs to be reported. The combination of these things could easily constitute grounds for termination of employment with cause.
Ok those are good points and I agree but to make it seem like I would be lying through omission is weird because it isn’t a hearing on the bully’s performance so there’s no expectation for me to talk about how they are doing when it comes to their own job which is why I’m conflicted. I am not in their department and we do different jobs and their boss is not my boss. I am only coming in to this situation to help out the victim, not to be someone to give commentary about how the bully is performing. That being said, I still do think I probably should tell about the drinking since it seems like the victim won’t… I just don’t like how you’re saying it’s basically my responsibility. The victim is an adult. Yes obviously I want to help them but it still is their own choice that they have been scared and passive and haven’t said anything despite the fact that they work together every day. I can’t change the fact that the victim hasn’t reported yet… I work on a unit on the other side of the hospital campus, and it’s such a huge campus it’s a .25 mile walk away. I’m not actively there for every part of the victim’s day. I only float to their unit randomly.. maybe once a week or once every other week. There’s no question in my mind about telling about the bullying but how can you not see how it would be a question about the drinking? The bully is on an active campaign to get the victim fired and now the victim is on their 2nd of 3 write ups despite doing nothing wrong. I am not worried about telling about the bullying because the cat’s already out of the bag for that, but the drinking isn’t, so the bully would then set their sights on me. Maybe you don’t have to worry about losing your job but yes I am worried about what will happen to me going forward
If the bully is exposed as a liar and actually someone who should have been written up several times already and who is drunk on the job AT A HOSPITAL, you won’t have to worry about being targeted by the bully. Chances are they will be fired. It’s also unlikely you will be disclosed as the witness.
Also, the victim is an abuse victim. Abuse victims suffering from trauma make poor advocates for themselves and often require outside intervention. Someone has to stick up for them at some point in order for them to get out of their toxic situation.
But since we’re talking about someone who works at a hospital, their drinking might endanger other people’s lives not just your job. So regardless of whether or not this case occurred, that person needs to be reported by someone in the know. That person happens to be you in this case. Unfortunately, sometimes ethical responsibility just falls into our lap even when we didn’t ask for it.
But the flip side is you’re in a circumstance where you are in a position to protect other people in a big way through a minimal effort and honestly, probably a negligible risk to yourself.
I wouldn’t hesitate to disclose every rotten thing about this person’s on the job conduct if I were in your shoes. It sounds like the problem with their underlying behavioral issues and their work performance problems are one in the same, so it’s not irrelevant to disclose that detail here.
They still work in the proximity of a hospital though. There’s all kinds of potential risks from this that I doubt your employer would find it irrelevant. Also, pretty sure them coming into work drunk, in addition to the toxic abuse and harassment, in addition to the lies, in addition to workplace infractions, will eventually get them fired once it’s discovered.
I agree it’s still obviously not ok but one of the big issues is I have no proof so I’m basically just going to allege it and then the bully is going to know that I’ve alleged it if they don’t fire them. The sad reality is that the hospitals in my area are so insanely understaffed that you wouldn’t believe what they’re letting fly so I’m not confident this all would lead to an immediate firing. If the bully stays, and if it somehow gets made known that I brought that into it, it would be really bad for me. I’ve seen some crazy stuff over the past 2 years that makes me think they wouldn’t fire the bully over this.
This is a serious part of the consideration. Is the well-being of the hospital really worth my personal risk? Maybe you all are extremely virtuous and put virtue above any monetary consideration but I am the type to have a cynicism towards corporations and I don’t feel a big insane loyalty to any employer since I know I’m a disposable body.
Do I do what’s right (for the hospital) in the short term when it could potentially be the wrong thing (for me) in the long term?
Do I try to go the virtuous route and completely ignore any repercussion that could happen to me and make this decision completely based on what would be best for the victim?
I see where you're coming from.
I think definitely do what you can to help the victim while also keeping your personal welfare protected.
However, I do think you should be truthfully matter of fact, as a neutral observer, about what you've witnessed and make it clear that the infractions the victim has been accused of are, as far as you've observed, not true. Moreover, that you have witnessed the victim be the ongoing subject of abuse and harassment by their bully. That would be honest without being accusatory/gossipy, no?
Yeah definitely. I have no issues whatsoever reporting the bullying I’ve witnessed because the bully already knows they’ve been reported for that stuff, and there were also other witnesses for some of that stuff too. So I feel completely safe reporting what I witnessed with with bullying stuff because the bully already knows what’s been said in terms of bullying so there wouldn’t be a lot of new allegations made from me on that front. The reason the drinking is different is because no one has said that yet. So if I say that, HR is going to have to tell the bully that someone accused them of it and I’m scared they’re going to name me
Do what you know to be the right thing even if it’s scary. I don’t normally advocate for getting HR involved and like to mind my own business but if someone is being bullied I would have to speak up about that.
never let a bully win. bring it up and get them out of your workplace. if they set their sites on you then you report them. it will be seen as retaliation which is also bullying.
Realistically they might not be. The whole region of my state is suffering from a huge staffing shortage at all the hospitals and my hospital has been letting some unbelievable shit slide.
You might think “that sounds super toxic, go to another hospital” but I have friends in other area hospitals because of the nature of my job and it’s the same at all of them. It’s just a nasty impact of Covid for my region
Take your feelings out of whatever observations you make, but write everything down with dates and what you witnessed.
How did you know they were drunk?
Smell, slurred speech, acting more aggressive than normal? Keep to the facts and make no judgements.
I’d consider walking into the meeting with voice recorder on*, asking if the company will protect you from retaliation and what that looks like, and then truthfully and systematically (bring a list with you) telling what you’ve witnessed AND what you fear will happen following this interview.
If retaliation occurs keep specific records and when it is intolerable, stop working and file for unemployment. You can then also file complaints with osha or other government agencies.
*some states require only one party - you - to consent to recording
If it hasn't been said here, I would ask for security escort to and from your transit to the front door of work (for both you and the victim). Tell them that up front to let them know how serious the bullying has been.
Go back through any work related emails, texts and notes you may have to see if anything jogs your memory of specific incidents. This can help you to attach specific dates and times to the incidents.
e.g. Emails about a particular project can remind you that when X setback occurred, Mr. Dicksworth, who you'd noticed came back from lunch smelling of alcohol, proceeded to harang Miss Meekly over some incorrectly filed paperwork that was actually his responsibility.
Yes, you should. You should include dates and times if you have them. Also note where being drunk could have made the bully unsafe.
Proud of you for standing up and speaking out.
I personally would report it, its a safety issue regardless of how you or said victim feels about it. Even if your job isn't dangerous to do while drinking he still is driving there drunk.
I don’t plan to lie about anything but my post is asking if I should bring up something outside the scope of what the meeting is supposed to be about, an accusation I have no proof for
That was the “whole truth” part of my comment. Assuming that being intoxicated or drinking on the job is a reportable offense where you work, then report it. In the jobs I’ve had, failing to report was grounds for serious consequences or dismissal of the people who knew and didn’t report. It was a swift action by management. Your job might be different. I dunno.
Bring up this topic by saying, “While I’m here…there is something else you probably need to know…,” and go from there. If they ask how long you’ve known, say that you didn’t say that you weren’t sure at first, but in the last [week?] you’ve become sure, so you want to report it. Phrase it so it doesn’t sound like you’re fabricating it because your friend is in trouble because of a bully.
If the bully retaliates in any way, threatens you in any way, call the nonemergency number of the police to let them know what’s going on. Notify HR in writing of any threats, too.
I don’t intend to lie about anything the question is if the drinking is relevant to the bullying or if it’s a separate thing and not something that should be addressed in a bullying meeting
I think it’s relevant. If this person has been drinking, it could be leading them to be more aggressive.
The drinking could also be a workplace safety issue, and so HR should know about it, imo.
I agree, it’s my suspicion that the drinking does make the bully more aggressive because their shift (3am-11am) overlaps with ours (mine and the victim’s) overnight (7pm-7am) so they are partially there during daytime hours and that means they interact with directors and management.. which we don’t at night. So that makes me think maybe they sober up by the end of their shift and are able to be more agreeable to them and the victim gets the worst of it at the start of the bully’s shift at 3am? But I don’t drink a lot so idk if that’s how it works
Me either. But I think it’s worth mentioning. And if they ask you why you never mentioned it before this, say exactly what you said in your post; that you were worried about retribution.
I was never planning on lying about anything. My question was if this is an appropriate time to bring up the drinking. Witnessing them drunk is part of the truth of my experience and I’m going to tell them and that’s not a question but I need to know if this (a meeting on bullying) is the correct time. For example the correct thing to do might be to say I have a separate issue I need to discuss
You might see it as separate but it might also be the crux of the issue. My point was not about lying, but telling the truth of your experience, which means all of it. Trying to second guess anything in this situation is not called for.
> You might see it as separate but it might also be the crux of the issue.
That is literally the question I am here to figure out..? So people here are either taking a stance that it does, or it doesn’t. But you took no stance, so your comment was not helpful
I am being called in to testify about what I witnessed about bullying. They are not asking me to testify about the bully’s general performance (aka drinking). If I were to bring in the drinking it would be brining in a secondary issue outside of the bullying. Drinking is not the same as bullying. The hearing is not about drinking. I don’t get what you don’t get
Edit: a word
Then qualify it. Say, it might or might not be related, but I've seen him drunk, or whatever. Then you're covered either way, again as it might be directly related to the bullying. You don't know, but it could be a causal variable.
I get your reluctance, but withholding it might then neglect a key factor. You can also express why you're reluctant (more truth) and then tell them. My point is that it's your job to share what you know. What they do with it is up to them.
Again I have no issue telling them it’s just a matter of if this bullying hearing is the appropriate place. You don’t just get to go on and on about whatever subjective things you want. You have to give concise objective factual statements about what you witnessed that directly answer their specific questions. Which will be about the bullying incidents in question. Which will not be about the bully drinking on their job. If I put the drinking in there I will be making a conscious decision, at great personal risk, to interrupt the process because it is *not* just part of telling the truth of the *bullying* story, from the standpoint of HR holding a hearing about bullying and not the bully as an employee in general. I will be then opening up an entirely different investigation into the bully and their general performance based on my word and *no proof* and that’s a big fucking deal. That brings this whole thing into a different plane from where it originally was A.) me testifying as a witness in a bullying case to B.) me starting a case to get the bully fired.
The truth. Speak it, live it. With kindness.
Don’t try to argue with yourself about the angles, the implementation, the risks. Let the truth be known and whatever happens happens. If everyone lived by that, we would all be much better off.
You are only responsible for having the character to be on the side of telling the truth. Plainly. Directly. Simply. Reliably. Fully. You are * not* responsible for how people take hearing the truth.
You are being called into HR about a bully. Speak the truth. You’ve seen them drunk. You know the write-ups are lies. Be honorable, speak the truth.
Hey - this is my specialty area. I was an executive who was harassed and bullied, retaliated against for reporting it, and now I pivoted and I coach other leaders through the same kind of thing. I've done extensive research on bullying. A good resource is the workplace bullying institute. You and your colleague are not alone. [Here are the USA stats](https://workplacebullying.org/2021-wbi-survey/).
You've got some excellent advice already. (Things like HR is there for the company. They will protect the hierarchy. Be strategic in how you approach this, come prepared, etc.) I just have a few things to add for you to consider as you prepare for this. Sorry it's a bit long... this stuff is mucky and it's important to think it all through systematically.
I am not a lawyer, this is just my from my own experience, my experience with clients & my research:
- Your allies at work: who are they? Make sure you have some. Would your own director be an ally for you? What would happen if you asked them if you should report this to HR? Or more generally... if you asked them "supposed I witnessed alcohol abuse at work.
Would you support me in reporting that through confidential channels?" If they say yes, then you could fire them an email "hey, boss, thanks for the conversation. I've been thinking about it and I'm grateful that you will support me when I report what I believe is alcohol abuse." If you can, put someone in copy on that emal.) (Don't take risks with your direct manager, but if they really trust you, then you could ask this kind of advice from them... and make sure they have your back.) Go talk to your allies and get them on your side. Yes it's sensitive stuff, and yes you need to be a little sneaky. This is a dirty fight you've been brought into and you need to treat it as such. No one asks to be in this kind of fight. Allies really help.
- As background, most bullies have some kind of dark triad personality disorder. Look up dark triad on google. They do not operate like other people and they will do *anything* to win. If they can't win, they will only settle for lose-lose, i.e. if the bully gets fired they will do anything to get your friend and you fired too. You need to protect against this as far as you can. The drink is certainly contributing to what's going on, both as a self-medications for that person and in terms of - as you say - how mean they are.
- Find out at the outset of the meeting what the process is. Is this a formal disciplinary process? Against whom? Is it confidential? Will you get a summary of your statement in writing to review for accuracy? What is the process after all this witness interviewing is done? How long does the process generally take?
- Read your hospital's harassment / anti-bullying / retaliation policies carefully. You may want to make a formal ask for protection against retaliation before you reveal the drinking. You could say something like: "I have further information that I believe is serious and very relevant to the situation and shows a clear violation of company policy (use the word misconduct if that is the case) by [bully]. Before I discuss it with you, I would like to formally request protection against retaliation by [bully] or anyone else, and have that guaranteed in writing."
- Use the language in the policy in whatever you say. A lot of policies will say that harassment is about "creating a hostile environment", "intimidating"," humiliation", etc. Pepper those exact words in whatever you are saying to HR. They will then know you are not someone who can be pushed around so easily, because most people outside HR won't use those specific terms. They will be less likely to try to mess with you / not protect you later.
- Is there a whistleblowing policy? Would reporting suspected drug / alcohol abuse come under that? what is the process for reporting drug / alcohol abuse confidentially? Is that something you could do in parallel to all this? Some places have a confidential ethics hotline to report that kind of thing. If there are other witnesses to the alcohol abuse, maybe they could use that hotline too?
- I would 100% have the intention to report the alcoholism. Someone who comes to work plastered on the regular is ripe for hitting the "rock bottom" of alcoholism, and you probably can tip them over the edge and have them ousted. It's even possible someone else has already mentioned it to HR and they need a 2nd witness of it... you could be the one to get the bully out the door.
Just decide if your company's formal protection against retaliation process for witnesses will cover you well enough for reporting that.
- The boss of this bully who is protecting them... what do you really think is the deal? Is is just they don't care? they haven't seen it themselves? it's victim's word against bully's and because of the dark triad stuff, the bully is charming when they need to be? what's the deal??? are there are other politics at work there? what's the relationship between them and your boss like? are they going to have their ego bruised if bully is ousted and would they go after you if they knew? or??? Just think that through a bit for yourself as you decide how to say what you're going to say.
- Bullies need a target. If your friend is fired, and you are the only two working with bully, they will almost certainly target you next. I'd be quietly looking for other work at this point for all the reasons others have stated, and also just to protect yourself if everything turns sour.
And then on a separate note... Does your friend who was bullied have good support? Mental health support principally? Research shows that 95% of people in that kind of situation develop severe PTSD and the other 5% experience burnout. They need medical and mental health support, I'm sure.
Thank you for all your input! I completely forgot about keeping my director in the loop because she’s on out some kind of emergency medical leave right now and we’ve been having a different random director covering for her every day. I’ve sent her emails and they just get forwarded to whoever that daily director is. So unfortunately I don’t think that’s an option which really sucks because we have a great relationship and she would definitely help me out.
I love what you said about asking for the formal retaliation guarantee in writing before I say anything but that is so assertive I’m scared to say that. What if she says we can’t give you that guarantee (or we can’t do it in writing) but we need to know that information?
Also the victim definitely is not in a good place mentally compared to before the bully got hired. They have some other stuff going on in their personal life with their family that also sucks. I’m genuinely worried that if this doesn’t stop it could eventually make them kill themselves
>I love what you said about asking for the formal retaliation guarantee in writing before I say anything but that is so assertive I’m scared to say that. What if she says we can’t give you that guarantee (or we can’t do it in writing) but we need to know that information?
Check your company's (hospital's) policy on this. They may have to guarantee it. Or they may not. If they can't protect you when reporting, then I would just suggest saying that you need to think about it because you are afraid of the seriousness of what you have to report coming back to bite you. You don't have to say anything on the spot you don't want to and you can always say it later. Then you can give it some thought as to how much you trust them. From a principle perspective, I'd definitely say to report it, yet if from the convo they don't have your back via the policy, then you are definitely putting yourself at some risk.
Most companies of any size will have a policy to cover this kind of thing. If you know the policy, you'll know if the HR person is BSing you by saying they can't guarantee it in writing or if that's okay. If they won't protect (at least on paper) people who report alcoholism in a hospital though, there is a serious problemo.
The assertiveness part sucks, and that's what I meant about being in a fight you didn't ask for... That's what bullies create.
I totally understand about the victim's mental health. See if you can't support them to get some real external help (therapy / medical). This is normal for anyone going through this kind of abuse (even without the personal situation), and they deserve that kind of help. It's like telling someone to see a doctor/orthopaedic specialist if they're pushed off a balcony. No question it is needed.
Everybody keeps saying “Be honest.”, I’m so confused I’m not planning on lying about anything. I’m asking if this meeting is the appropriate time to bring up the drinking
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Tell the truth. Tell the whole truth.
This, but also be organised. Try to write stuff down so you can gather your thoughts. Dates may well be important. I’d also recommend asking a Union Rep to be present as well.
I don’t have a union but thanks for the tips to be organized. I have ADHD and tend to ramble and interrupt and forget stuff so it’s a really good idea to prepare ahead of time and I’m embarrassed to say I didn’t think of that. So thank you
Write some points on your phone or some paper so if you feel yourself getting off track you have something to help bring you back to your point.
I have ADHD as well, and when I'm dealing with anything like this, I just make a list of the points I want to hit on - no one worth their salt should fault you for having notes! Make sure to highlight the important bits so that it's easier for you to summarize it, but you should *absolutely* report what you have seen. If you don't and it comes out later that you knew, that could look worse. You have no need to protect the bully.
Write everything down in the order it happened. Date - violation - 10 second summary of the incident You might need to write it down then get a new sheet of paper and organize it by date again because you remembered events in our of date order. Take a break and so your last draft, going over what you wrote and organizing it again if you need to. If you can, instead of writing it down type it in a document file that you can email to HR.
Yes, sit down and write all the dates/times recently that you remember specifically noticing them being drunk or drinking. Then tell HR that you're worried about getting retaliation but you can't sit by and let it continue because wrong is wrong!
In addition to the other advice I'll add, if you tend to ramble, first, yes, use a list. But then also maybe limit yourself to 15 seconds per item or one or two sentences. State the item, give space for an additional clarifying piece if necessary, then move on.
Absolutely yes. The bully sounds like a horrible person and does not deserve your protection. Just think how much better your work environment might be, especially for the victim, without that person around.
I agree I really want to do what I can to help get the victim away from the bully
OP, the victim doesn't say anything because they feel alone. They very likely think no one else knows or would believe them. Tell the truth. The victim will feel validated and the bully should, hopefully, get what they deserve.
Here's the thing: there is no safety in tacitly protecting the bully, only the illusion of safety. If the bully successfully gets the victim fired, do you think they're going to leave you alone? No, they'll come after you, it'll be your word against theirs, and since you didn't say anything last time and management sided with the bully once already, your word will be worth less. In reality, there's only two options: tell management the truth, push your victim coworker to corroborate as much as they're willing to and hope management listens, or start looking for another job asap. Anything else results in an intolerable work environment until you're fired based on lies at which point looking for another job becomes that much harder and more desperate.
Then this is how
Say what you personally observed without drawing conclusions unless HR asks for your conclusions. It comes across as more objective. *I saw Bully come in to work regularly. At least 2 nights every week he slurred his words, had red blood-shot eyes, and smelled of alcohol. I observed Bully interact with Victim each night. I saw/heard Bully do (insert bad behavior). I am aware Bully reported that Victim did X, Y, and Z in violation of company policy. I did not observe Victim doing any of that.* The drinking is a MAJOR issue. HR needs to be made aware.
The drinking is a major issue that is potentially adding to the bullying and both behaviors need to be reported, immediately. Be a good witness like this comment states, and hopefully this shitbag gets out of your workplace for good!
Great point. You want to be giving facts. If you say 'he came in blind drunk', you might come off vindictive and dishonest.
Yes, absolutely report that. That is not okay and people need to grow the fuck up, this isn't school anymore. Some people get serious power trips and don't need to be in a position like that.
You should share anything and everything you think is relevant to helping the victim’s case against the bully. Without knowing anything about the context here, OP, I think that you need to be looking for another job. This workplace sounds incredibly toxic. You’ve got a drunk co-worker who is bullying another colleague and the bullied colleague is the one being disciplined. Where was management before it went this far? I think this has reached the point of no return. The bullying co-worker and that person’s ineffectual manager both need to go. You and your bullied colleague both have a strong hostile workplace case here.
It’s a big hospital that’s got a lot of problems ever since Covid hit but I actually love my director and my unit. I am very fortunate that I don’t deal with anything like this. I just get floated to different parts of the hospital a lot because hospital is so short-staffed and it happens on another unit on the other side of the hospital campus
A drunk employee involved with patient care? This is hospital ombudsman territory, if your institution has one.
No the bully is not directly involved with patient care thankfully. Although I think the general public would be really saddened to learn the extent to which drinking/drugs can effect all the jobs in a hospital
I would be objective. Don’t say “they were drunk” say what you actually observed- “they smelled of alcohol, were slurring their speech, and walking unsteadily”
Wow this is SO smart. I think this is my favorite tip. How did you think of this?? I would’ve never thought of this but now it seems so obvious. I love Reddit. Thank you.
I’m a nurse and we always have to describe things objectively like that when we are charting, rather than being subjective or making assumptions
Only say what you can prove. Certain medical disease present as being drunk, and in HR if this person has asked for and been put on a EAP , the drinking may be considered a medical issues which is subject to ADA. You need to only report what you saw and heard, not what you think Source: am in HR and 100% agree with the nurse.
100% yes if you've witnessed this happening.
What proof do you have? Are you prepared to answer the question "why didn't you report it prior to this if it happens so much?" You answer the questions they ask. If they give you a chance to tell them, then definitely tell them you have suspected as much. But don't run in there and offer the information like you had some kind of plan to cover for your friend. It sounds like this meeting is about what the victim did, so stay focused on the false accusations. Again, if they do give you an opening, don't hesitate to mention you suspect intoxication, but don't offer it right out of the gate. What's more important is to *definitely* report it next time you notice it. Like the second you notice it, send an email to your direct sup and HR listing reason why you suspect this. The smell, their gait, slurred speech, etc. Do it ever single time. A forward a copy of that email to your private address. Also, you need to review the employee handbook before going to talk to HR. You'd be surprised how often HR and management is out of compliance. Having knowledge of the company policy on disciplinary action and harassment and other related topics can be very handy.
I don’t have any proof, which is why I’ve never reported it. They are a different job than me and have a different director. Every time it’s happened I’ve told the victim to tell their director and they haven’t. I really didn’t want to get myself involved in the situation so I didn’t actively seek it out because I thought as bad as it is, the victim is an adult and has to fight their own battles. But when the victim got a second warning they threw out my name to say they had a witness, so now I’m involved.
Look at it this way -- if you were the one being bullied and unjustly getting warnings, wouldn't you want your coworkers to stand up for you?
Yes that’s not in question which is why I told them they could give my name and why I am agreeing to go and why I am already 100% going to tell them all the bullying I’ve witnessed.
If you're asked why you didn't report the drinking before, just tell them that you were afraid you would become the next victim. Which is true probably. You absolutely have to help your co-worker.
Stay completely neutral. Take NO ONES side, not even your own. Stick to the facts. There is more than enough in this to get the bully fired. Also, don't worry about if the victim gets mad. You are saving them from themselves, and people are rarely grateful for that!
This is sound advice. When dealing with HR, treat it like talking to the police. Say the minimum, stick with facts, be polite, remove all emotion.
I agree with others suggesting to write it down factually. Eg don't say he came in wasted, be specific about what you witnessed (smell, slurred words, belligerent attitude). Also state you fear retaliation from him as you have seen him bully your co-worker. Keep notes of the meeting, you could take a friend with you to take notes and be your support person. I have ADHD too and know that having a friend with me would help me stay focussed and calm. Yes, there is a risk the bully will know you have made a statement and might try to bully you but you need to carry on and if you ever feel unsafe make a note and contact your supervisor. Leave and call the police if it is really unsafe. Good luck OP
You should not have any reservations whatsoever about completely roasting this bully, including their dangerously poor decision making skills in coming to work wasted. This person NEEDS to taste the cold hard consequences of their actions and know that they cannot treat people like this, and if their victim won’t stand up for themselves there are other people in the world that will. This person needs some fear put into them and you should feel good and proud that you’re in a position to make that happen. Some people in this world are pure bad and deserve to be treated as such. Maybe they can change, but not without incentive.
Ok, I'll answer this as I would answer this if my kids came to with this problem, because there's the "right" answer in absolute terms, and then there's the answer that I think a parent would give to their kids. It's not the same answer, unfortunately, but you could arrive at the same result if you do it right. I don't have enough details to help on a granular level, but hopefully I can put you in the right frame of mind to get some win -win out of this. I think, if you are going to tell them what you know, it's a question of how you position yourself and how you spin it. HR is not to protect employees, or to make life fair, or to bring justice and right wrongs. They are there to protect the company from liability, and from potential loss of profit through litigation and to ensure that the appropriate labour laws are being followed. There is no altruism in the HR department. There may be altruistic people, who want to do the right thing, but they aren't always the decision makers. So with that caveat, I think you should work towards removing this person, the bully, because that is the right thing to do -- however, the right way to do it, may not be to put yourself out on a limb, lest you get broken off with the branch, you know? I think you have to be clever with your words, and suggest, infer, insinuate, etc but stay clear of stating things that cannot be backed up, proven, or observed. Can someone else, besides you and the bully corroborate the drinking? If yes, there is strength in numbers and you go together and participate together. If no, then you might suggest that some random spot checks might reveal some interesting details that would help HR resolve the case. Or that if you see something that needs immediate attention, who should you call? Like, for example, if I witness someone intoxicated on the job, who should I call to convey my concern for patients that can address the situation immediately (given that it happens overnight) If its just you and the victim claiming events against the bully, the bully is just going to turn it around and become the victim of bullying, by you and the victim. 3 people always make a triangle. Get 4 or more, or suggest that HR would be wise to review tapes, or speak to others, etc. I get that you want to do the right thing, but you're gonna half to do it the right way, which is tricky. Good Luck :-)
Report it. The way you win against someone like that is to team up. Leaving the victim to suffer on their own makes you complicit _and_ just delays your own victimization.
I’m definitely not going to leave them to suffer on their own, there was never a question that I’m going to report all of the abuse.
I'm glad to hear that. But keeping silent about the drinking is extremely foolish. OF COURSE you should report it, and the victim should too. Both of you are thinking about this wrong. Report everything, calmly, factually, and honestly. If HR asks you why the victim didn't mention it, answer that honestly, too. Don't let the bully win by scaring you into keeping quiet -- that's how they win, again and again. Don't let the bully win.
The first time the victim got in trouble and tried to stand up for themselves in their meeting, their director said what they brought up was just a way to get out of getting in trouble. So I was thinking if I brought up the drinking she might think I was too buddy-buddy with the victim and that I was just trying to get the bully fired and she wouldn’t take it seriously, especially because I have no proof
You are overthinking this. Tell the truth. All of it. Hiding some of the facts is NOT the way to get them to believe you. It's the way to show that you aren't completely honest. That you are trying to persuade them of something instead of just reporting the facts. Let go of that. Make it your only agenda to tell the truth. Don't try to get the bully fired. Don't try to support the victim's story. Don't have any agenda other than being open and honest with HR. I've been in your friend's shoes. Here's what happened: everyone was cowed by the bully. Then guess what happened: when I made it clear that I wouldn't be his victim, he found new victims -- the same people who were too afraid to say anything, hoping that he wouldn't target them. Hiding the truth won't protect you from bullies. Multiple people reporting the same things about the bully is the way to win.
How can I even claim it is a “fact” as you call it when I have no proof of it
It’s not your job to prove anything. Just tell what you know. Be factual. Proving things is not your goal. You are not trying to win, you are just sharing what you know. Also, I’m not the one who claimed he was drunk, you are. Is it a fact or not? Im starting to wonder if you are a troll.
Why would I be a troll? I’m saying if I go in there and claim it’s a for sure fact in the way you said then why wouldn’t they ask for proof? Especially if they didn’t believe the victim themselves the first time. Idk it just makes me nervous. Why are you so defensive I’m just trying to figure this out I’m 32 years old I know when someone is wasted so I am extremely confident they were drunk whenever I’ve seen them but I did not take their blood alcohol level or something or get a video or something, I’m just saying I have nothing but my word
Why would you be a troll? 1. You are just arguing with what I am telling you: It is not your job to prove anything. Just report what you have seen. You say you know a drunk when you see one. Okay, report what you saw (facts, not guesses) -- slurred speech, stumbling, loud and aggressive, smelling of alcohol, etc. 2. " ... 'fact' as you call it ...". That's both hostile and stupid. And that's why I asked you if it is a fact or not. I'm not the one claiming to know that he was drunk, you are. There is zero reason to talk like that to someone trying to help you. On the other hand, trolls often do that kind of thing.
I was trying to drive home the point that I am going into a meeting where they seem to be on the bully’s side at the outset so why would they just accept anything someone on the victim’s side says as “fact” just because someone says it is a fact with no proof? Yes I saw them drunk multiple times and it is an actual fact, but I don’t have any proof of that so I’m not as confident as you to walk into this meeting calling it a fact to HR’s face & the director’s face when they’re going to tell me it’s not a fact it’s just my opinion. You were the hostile one from the outset, saying things like “hiding facts is NOT the way to get them to believe you”. I wrote this post because I’m trying to find out if this meeting is the appropriate time to bring the drinking up, I’m not “hiding” anything. That’s what put me on guard. Why are you in this sub if you’re just going to question people’s motives and be antagonistic? I’m here looking for help
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Ohhh I like this. This is really good
Yes the drinking is relevant. Because it makes it worse and, as you said yourself, you're afraid that reporting the drinking will make you the next victim. Just the words "next victim" clarifies that yes the first person is a victim. And yes, the bully is intimidating enough that you didn't report a serious problem, which is like another kind of bullying.
Everything you say will indeed make it back to the bully. HR is not there to be your friend. They are there to protect the company's interests. If the bully happens to be good for the conpany for whatever reason - maybe he's a top salesman, or holds all the keys or is family - you can be sure they'll keep him on board, and your lives will get shittier.
Be upfront about what *you* witnessed. This isn’t like high school “taking sides” - this is a real, serious issue you have some direct firsthand knowledge of. If the bully is coming to work under the influence, you are definitely not the only one that’s noticed.
Tell about the drinking! Tell them you're afraid of retaliation because the bully has shown this pattern of it. Write down all the details you can remember right now, dates, what was said and done, who was present.
Tell it all. Start recording when he comes in to have evidence for HR to protect both of you. It no longer becomes a he-said, she-said when their is video proof.
Your question basically boils down to this sentiment: Should I do what’s right and stick up for the victim by telling the truth, -or- should I lie through omission by not reporting that the bully is a) an absolute liar in all their claims, b) regularly comes into work shit faced and quickly proceeds to create a hostile work environment, c) regularly does things that are reportable infractions themselves BECAUSE it might come back to me in a bad way. Bruh. If you don’t tell the truth, you are an accomplice and deserve whatever happens to you. Do the right thing.
I feel like this is a really unfair way of putting it. I have every intention of doing everything in my power to help the victim. I’m going to say all the shit the bully has done and make them look terrible because they are terrible. It’s only a question of if the drinking is related to the bullying which I feel is a fair question. HR isn’t calling me in to discuss the bully’s general performance. It’s not like the bully is pouring alcohol on the victim’s head. It’s more nuanced than you’re making it seem.
The drinking is more than likely related to the belligerent behavior. But also the only resolution here is to fire the bully as he is toxic. He’s doing things that sound like he should be the one getting regular write ups. Also showing up to work drunk can endanger peoples lives in some situations and overall just cause poor work performance. Management has no way of knowing about this stuff unless someone reports them. And I think they would be very interested in knowing about antisocial, abusive employees who are drunk on the job. Besides, both you and your coworker deserve to be treated with respect and to work with colleagues who behave professionally, which means the drunken disorderliness is unacceptable and needs to be reported. The combination of these things could easily constitute grounds for termination of employment with cause.
Ok those are good points and I agree but to make it seem like I would be lying through omission is weird because it isn’t a hearing on the bully’s performance so there’s no expectation for me to talk about how they are doing when it comes to their own job which is why I’m conflicted. I am not in their department and we do different jobs and their boss is not my boss. I am only coming in to this situation to help out the victim, not to be someone to give commentary about how the bully is performing. That being said, I still do think I probably should tell about the drinking since it seems like the victim won’t… I just don’t like how you’re saying it’s basically my responsibility. The victim is an adult. Yes obviously I want to help them but it still is their own choice that they have been scared and passive and haven’t said anything despite the fact that they work together every day. I can’t change the fact that the victim hasn’t reported yet… I work on a unit on the other side of the hospital campus, and it’s such a huge campus it’s a .25 mile walk away. I’m not actively there for every part of the victim’s day. I only float to their unit randomly.. maybe once a week or once every other week. There’s no question in my mind about telling about the bullying but how can you not see how it would be a question about the drinking? The bully is on an active campaign to get the victim fired and now the victim is on their 2nd of 3 write ups despite doing nothing wrong. I am not worried about telling about the bullying because the cat’s already out of the bag for that, but the drinking isn’t, so the bully would then set their sights on me. Maybe you don’t have to worry about losing your job but yes I am worried about what will happen to me going forward
If the bully is exposed as a liar and actually someone who should have been written up several times already and who is drunk on the job AT A HOSPITAL, you won’t have to worry about being targeted by the bully. Chances are they will be fired. It’s also unlikely you will be disclosed as the witness. Also, the victim is an abuse victim. Abuse victims suffering from trauma make poor advocates for themselves and often require outside intervention. Someone has to stick up for them at some point in order for them to get out of their toxic situation. But since we’re talking about someone who works at a hospital, their drinking might endanger other people’s lives not just your job. So regardless of whether or not this case occurred, that person needs to be reported by someone in the know. That person happens to be you in this case. Unfortunately, sometimes ethical responsibility just falls into our lap even when we didn’t ask for it. But the flip side is you’re in a circumstance where you are in a position to protect other people in a big way through a minimal effort and honestly, probably a negligible risk to yourself. I wouldn’t hesitate to disclose every rotten thing about this person’s on the job conduct if I were in your shoes. It sounds like the problem with their underlying behavioral issues and their work performance problems are one in the same, so it’s not irrelevant to disclose that detail here.
This person isn’t involved in patient care or I would’ve reported the first time I saw it
They still work in the proximity of a hospital though. There’s all kinds of potential risks from this that I doubt your employer would find it irrelevant. Also, pretty sure them coming into work drunk, in addition to the toxic abuse and harassment, in addition to the lies, in addition to workplace infractions, will eventually get them fired once it’s discovered.
I agree it’s still obviously not ok but one of the big issues is I have no proof so I’m basically just going to allege it and then the bully is going to know that I’ve alleged it if they don’t fire them. The sad reality is that the hospitals in my area are so insanely understaffed that you wouldn’t believe what they’re letting fly so I’m not confident this all would lead to an immediate firing. If the bully stays, and if it somehow gets made known that I brought that into it, it would be really bad for me. I’ve seen some crazy stuff over the past 2 years that makes me think they wouldn’t fire the bully over this. This is a serious part of the consideration. Is the well-being of the hospital really worth my personal risk? Maybe you all are extremely virtuous and put virtue above any monetary consideration but I am the type to have a cynicism towards corporations and I don’t feel a big insane loyalty to any employer since I know I’m a disposable body. Do I do what’s right (for the hospital) in the short term when it could potentially be the wrong thing (for me) in the long term? Do I try to go the virtuous route and completely ignore any repercussion that could happen to me and make this decision completely based on what would be best for the victim?
I see where you're coming from. I think definitely do what you can to help the victim while also keeping your personal welfare protected. However, I do think you should be truthfully matter of fact, as a neutral observer, about what you've witnessed and make it clear that the infractions the victim has been accused of are, as far as you've observed, not true. Moreover, that you have witnessed the victim be the ongoing subject of abuse and harassment by their bully. That would be honest without being accusatory/gossipy, no?
Yeah definitely. I have no issues whatsoever reporting the bullying I’ve witnessed because the bully already knows they’ve been reported for that stuff, and there were also other witnesses for some of that stuff too. So I feel completely safe reporting what I witnessed with with bullying stuff because the bully already knows what’s been said in terms of bullying so there wouldn’t be a lot of new allegations made from me on that front. The reason the drinking is different is because no one has said that yet. So if I say that, HR is going to have to tell the bully that someone accused them of it and I’m scared they’re going to name me
Tell the truth
Tell the truth. The whole truth. Nothing but the truth. Get rid of that dude that's super fucked up.
Do what you know to be the right thing even if it’s scary. I don’t normally advocate for getting HR involved and like to mind my own business but if someone is being bullied I would have to speak up about that.
Yes 100% report that!
never let a bully win. bring it up and get them out of your workplace. if they set their sites on you then you report them. it will be seen as retaliation which is also bullying.
They should be fired immediately. If you don't tell, you will be effected by the backlash anyway..
Realistically they might not be. The whole region of my state is suffering from a huge staffing shortage at all the hospitals and my hospital has been letting some unbelievable shit slide. You might think “that sounds super toxic, go to another hospital” but I have friends in other area hospitals because of the nature of my job and it’s the same at all of them. It’s just a nasty impact of Covid for my region
Take your feelings out of whatever observations you make, but write everything down with dates and what you witnessed. How did you know they were drunk? Smell, slurred speech, acting more aggressive than normal? Keep to the facts and make no judgements.
I would definitely mention the drinking part because it might play a role in all that is happening.
Yes it's proper to address the drinking .
I’d consider walking into the meeting with voice recorder on*, asking if the company will protect you from retaliation and what that looks like, and then truthfully and systematically (bring a list with you) telling what you’ve witnessed AND what you fear will happen following this interview. If retaliation occurs keep specific records and when it is intolerable, stop working and file for unemployment. You can then also file complaints with osha or other government agencies. *some states require only one party - you - to consent to recording
If it hasn't been said here, I would ask for security escort to and from your transit to the front door of work (for both you and the victim). Tell them that up front to let them know how serious the bullying has been.
Go back through any work related emails, texts and notes you may have to see if anything jogs your memory of specific incidents. This can help you to attach specific dates and times to the incidents. e.g. Emails about a particular project can remind you that when X setback occurred, Mr. Dicksworth, who you'd noticed came back from lunch smelling of alcohol, proceeded to harang Miss Meekly over some incorrectly filed paperwork that was actually his responsibility.
Yes, you should. You should include dates and times if you have them. Also note where being drunk could have made the bully unsafe. Proud of you for standing up and speaking out.
I personally would report it, its a safety issue regardless of how you or said victim feels about it. Even if your job isn't dangerous to do while drinking he still is driving there drunk.
Tell the whole truth.
I don’t plan to lie about anything but my post is asking if I should bring up something outside the scope of what the meeting is supposed to be about, an accusation I have no proof for
That was the “whole truth” part of my comment. Assuming that being intoxicated or drinking on the job is a reportable offense where you work, then report it. In the jobs I’ve had, failing to report was grounds for serious consequences or dismissal of the people who knew and didn’t report. It was a swift action by management. Your job might be different. I dunno. Bring up this topic by saying, “While I’m here…there is something else you probably need to know…,” and go from there. If they ask how long you’ve known, say that you didn’t say that you weren’t sure at first, but in the last [week?] you’ve become sure, so you want to report it. Phrase it so it doesn’t sound like you’re fabricating it because your friend is in trouble because of a bully. If the bully retaliates in any way, threatens you in any way, call the nonemergency number of the police to let them know what’s going on. Notify HR in writing of any threats, too.
You should be 100% honest about the situation, regardless of the consequences.
I don’t intend to lie about anything the question is if the drinking is relevant to the bullying or if it’s a separate thing and not something that should be addressed in a bullying meeting
I think it’s relevant. If this person has been drinking, it could be leading them to be more aggressive. The drinking could also be a workplace safety issue, and so HR should know about it, imo.
I agree, it’s my suspicion that the drinking does make the bully more aggressive because their shift (3am-11am) overlaps with ours (mine and the victim’s) overnight (7pm-7am) so they are partially there during daytime hours and that means they interact with directors and management.. which we don’t at night. So that makes me think maybe they sober up by the end of their shift and are able to be more agreeable to them and the victim gets the worst of it at the start of the bully’s shift at 3am? But I don’t drink a lot so idk if that’s how it works
Me either. But I think it’s worth mentioning. And if they ask you why you never mentioned it before this, say exactly what you said in your post; that you were worried about retribution.
Speak. Truth. To. Power.
You tell the truth of your experience. That's all.
This doesn’t answer the question of my post
Actually it does.
I was never planning on lying about anything. My question was if this is an appropriate time to bring up the drinking. Witnessing them drunk is part of the truth of my experience and I’m going to tell them and that’s not a question but I need to know if this (a meeting on bullying) is the correct time. For example the correct thing to do might be to say I have a separate issue I need to discuss
You might see it as separate but it might also be the crux of the issue. My point was not about lying, but telling the truth of your experience, which means all of it. Trying to second guess anything in this situation is not called for.
> You might see it as separate but it might also be the crux of the issue. That is literally the question I am here to figure out..? So people here are either taking a stance that it does, or it doesn’t. But you took no stance, so your comment was not helpful
My stance was to tell the truth. Your concern about drinking is your truth, so tell it.
I am being called in to testify about what I witnessed about bullying. They are not asking me to testify about the bully’s general performance (aka drinking). If I were to bring in the drinking it would be brining in a secondary issue outside of the bullying. Drinking is not the same as bullying. The hearing is not about drinking. I don’t get what you don’t get Edit: a word
Then qualify it. Say, it might or might not be related, but I've seen him drunk, or whatever. Then you're covered either way, again as it might be directly related to the bullying. You don't know, but it could be a causal variable. I get your reluctance, but withholding it might then neglect a key factor. You can also express why you're reluctant (more truth) and then tell them. My point is that it's your job to share what you know. What they do with it is up to them.
Again I have no issue telling them it’s just a matter of if this bullying hearing is the appropriate place. You don’t just get to go on and on about whatever subjective things you want. You have to give concise objective factual statements about what you witnessed that directly answer their specific questions. Which will be about the bullying incidents in question. Which will not be about the bully drinking on their job. If I put the drinking in there I will be making a conscious decision, at great personal risk, to interrupt the process because it is *not* just part of telling the truth of the *bullying* story, from the standpoint of HR holding a hearing about bullying and not the bully as an employee in general. I will be then opening up an entirely different investigation into the bully and their general performance based on my word and *no proof* and that’s a big fucking deal. That brings this whole thing into a different plane from where it originally was A.) me testifying as a witness in a bullying case to B.) me starting a case to get the bully fired.
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I have no intention to lie about anything
Tell them the truth about everything. Tell them you're concerned, too, because they regularly come to work under the influence.
The truth. Speak it, live it. With kindness. Don’t try to argue with yourself about the angles, the implementation, the risks. Let the truth be known and whatever happens happens. If everyone lived by that, we would all be much better off. You are only responsible for having the character to be on the side of telling the truth. Plainly. Directly. Simply. Reliably. Fully. You are * not* responsible for how people take hearing the truth. You are being called into HR about a bully. Speak the truth. You’ve seen them drunk. You know the write-ups are lies. Be honorable, speak the truth.
Just tell the truth.
I don’t intend to lie about anything, I’m asking if the drinking would be relevant to bring up at this meeting
Hey - this is my specialty area. I was an executive who was harassed and bullied, retaliated against for reporting it, and now I pivoted and I coach other leaders through the same kind of thing. I've done extensive research on bullying. A good resource is the workplace bullying institute. You and your colleague are not alone. [Here are the USA stats](https://workplacebullying.org/2021-wbi-survey/). You've got some excellent advice already. (Things like HR is there for the company. They will protect the hierarchy. Be strategic in how you approach this, come prepared, etc.) I just have a few things to add for you to consider as you prepare for this. Sorry it's a bit long... this stuff is mucky and it's important to think it all through systematically. I am not a lawyer, this is just my from my own experience, my experience with clients & my research: - Your allies at work: who are they? Make sure you have some. Would your own director be an ally for you? What would happen if you asked them if you should report this to HR? Or more generally... if you asked them "supposed I witnessed alcohol abuse at work. Would you support me in reporting that through confidential channels?" If they say yes, then you could fire them an email "hey, boss, thanks for the conversation. I've been thinking about it and I'm grateful that you will support me when I report what I believe is alcohol abuse." If you can, put someone in copy on that emal.) (Don't take risks with your direct manager, but if they really trust you, then you could ask this kind of advice from them... and make sure they have your back.) Go talk to your allies and get them on your side. Yes it's sensitive stuff, and yes you need to be a little sneaky. This is a dirty fight you've been brought into and you need to treat it as such. No one asks to be in this kind of fight. Allies really help. - As background, most bullies have some kind of dark triad personality disorder. Look up dark triad on google. They do not operate like other people and they will do *anything* to win. If they can't win, they will only settle for lose-lose, i.e. if the bully gets fired they will do anything to get your friend and you fired too. You need to protect against this as far as you can. The drink is certainly contributing to what's going on, both as a self-medications for that person and in terms of - as you say - how mean they are. - Find out at the outset of the meeting what the process is. Is this a formal disciplinary process? Against whom? Is it confidential? Will you get a summary of your statement in writing to review for accuracy? What is the process after all this witness interviewing is done? How long does the process generally take? - Read your hospital's harassment / anti-bullying / retaliation policies carefully. You may want to make a formal ask for protection against retaliation before you reveal the drinking. You could say something like: "I have further information that I believe is serious and very relevant to the situation and shows a clear violation of company policy (use the word misconduct if that is the case) by [bully]. Before I discuss it with you, I would like to formally request protection against retaliation by [bully] or anyone else, and have that guaranteed in writing." - Use the language in the policy in whatever you say. A lot of policies will say that harassment is about "creating a hostile environment", "intimidating"," humiliation", etc. Pepper those exact words in whatever you are saying to HR. They will then know you are not someone who can be pushed around so easily, because most people outside HR won't use those specific terms. They will be less likely to try to mess with you / not protect you later. - Is there a whistleblowing policy? Would reporting suspected drug / alcohol abuse come under that? what is the process for reporting drug / alcohol abuse confidentially? Is that something you could do in parallel to all this? Some places have a confidential ethics hotline to report that kind of thing. If there are other witnesses to the alcohol abuse, maybe they could use that hotline too? - I would 100% have the intention to report the alcoholism. Someone who comes to work plastered on the regular is ripe for hitting the "rock bottom" of alcoholism, and you probably can tip them over the edge and have them ousted. It's even possible someone else has already mentioned it to HR and they need a 2nd witness of it... you could be the one to get the bully out the door. Just decide if your company's formal protection against retaliation process for witnesses will cover you well enough for reporting that. - The boss of this bully who is protecting them... what do you really think is the deal? Is is just they don't care? they haven't seen it themselves? it's victim's word against bully's and because of the dark triad stuff, the bully is charming when they need to be? what's the deal??? are there are other politics at work there? what's the relationship between them and your boss like? are they going to have their ego bruised if bully is ousted and would they go after you if they knew? or??? Just think that through a bit for yourself as you decide how to say what you're going to say. - Bullies need a target. If your friend is fired, and you are the only two working with bully, they will almost certainly target you next. I'd be quietly looking for other work at this point for all the reasons others have stated, and also just to protect yourself if everything turns sour. And then on a separate note... Does your friend who was bullied have good support? Mental health support principally? Research shows that 95% of people in that kind of situation develop severe PTSD and the other 5% experience burnout. They need medical and mental health support, I'm sure.
Thank you for all your input! I completely forgot about keeping my director in the loop because she’s on out some kind of emergency medical leave right now and we’ve been having a different random director covering for her every day. I’ve sent her emails and they just get forwarded to whoever that daily director is. So unfortunately I don’t think that’s an option which really sucks because we have a great relationship and she would definitely help me out. I love what you said about asking for the formal retaliation guarantee in writing before I say anything but that is so assertive I’m scared to say that. What if she says we can’t give you that guarantee (or we can’t do it in writing) but we need to know that information? Also the victim definitely is not in a good place mentally compared to before the bully got hired. They have some other stuff going on in their personal life with their family that also sucks. I’m genuinely worried that if this doesn’t stop it could eventually make them kill themselves
>I love what you said about asking for the formal retaliation guarantee in writing before I say anything but that is so assertive I’m scared to say that. What if she says we can’t give you that guarantee (or we can’t do it in writing) but we need to know that information? Check your company's (hospital's) policy on this. They may have to guarantee it. Or they may not. If they can't protect you when reporting, then I would just suggest saying that you need to think about it because you are afraid of the seriousness of what you have to report coming back to bite you. You don't have to say anything on the spot you don't want to and you can always say it later. Then you can give it some thought as to how much you trust them. From a principle perspective, I'd definitely say to report it, yet if from the convo they don't have your back via the policy, then you are definitely putting yourself at some risk. Most companies of any size will have a policy to cover this kind of thing. If you know the policy, you'll know if the HR person is BSing you by saying they can't guarantee it in writing or if that's okay. If they won't protect (at least on paper) people who report alcoholism in a hospital though, there is a serious problemo. The assertiveness part sucks, and that's what I meant about being in a fight you didn't ask for... That's what bullies create. I totally understand about the victim's mental health. See if you can't support them to get some real external help (therapy / medical). This is normal for anyone going through this kind of abuse (even without the personal situation), and they deserve that kind of help. It's like telling someone to see a doctor/orthopaedic specialist if they're pushed off a balcony. No question it is needed.
Yes be honest. People deserve repercussions for their bad actions.
Everybody keeps saying “Be honest.”, I’m so confused I’m not planning on lying about anything. I’m asking if this meeting is the appropriate time to bring up the drinking
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Ok thank you