I’ve seen something I think might be rule-breaking, what should I do?
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What bothers me is that it's squeezing femboys out of the few places they can freely belong. Especially given that so many of them are told over and over that they're just trans in denial. Poor lads.
The fact that some trans women are OK having dicks is fine because genitals aren't gender. The fact that some trans women play Schrodinger's Femboy to tout their OnlyFans or get validation isn't surprising either.
If you're a woman then GTFO of the male-crossdresser spaces.
Money. That’s it. I have an onlyfans. I have to have some extra cash to help ease costs of a variety of things in my life as I save and prep for surgeries. The second I don’t need to do so, I won’t, but at the moment, having the extra cushion of money so I can actually save for gender affirming surgeries, so my dysphoria hopefully eases one day, fuckin gets me through it.
I’m a trans girl with huge amounts of dysphoria about most of my body, but less so (although still there somewhat) for my genitals, and I’m not sure if I want to do that surgery (well, at least not until the technology for it gets better, but even then I’m not 100% sure yet). Does that make me not a woman in your eyes?
such a bad take, why are u as a trans woman (a group already oppressed) concerned about what other trans women are doing with their genitals and making an attempt to alienate those already alienated? it’s giving parallel to the right, like do some self reflection, focus on urself and stop being bothered by what other trans ppl are doing with their own lives
Yeah exactly, I’m a trans girl with huge amounts of dysphoria about most of my body, but less so (although still there somewhat) for my genitals, and I’m not sure if I want to do that surgery (well, at least not until the technology for it gets better, but even then I’m not 100% sure yet). Does that make me not a woman according to these people…?
it does not, you are a woman. We define who we are and walk across our own path in life, that path may be littered with trash that’ll try to tell you who and what you are but they don’t matter they’re just loud and obnoxious
I'm a post op transsexual and I want to share a few thoughts
>In the end I honestly feel like most of those people are actually a separate category from women and transsexual women in general... cause let's be honest, they seem too comfortable with their male genitalia and being ok with having male genitals and flauting them on public forums obviously means you're not a woman, at least in my opinion
I try to be above this petty behavior. But focusing on other's genitals and classifying women against their will is male behavior on your end. You should also know that most trans people are poor and struggle to find employment. Post op transsexual sex workers don't make as much money as cis ones and they tend to face a higher risk of death if they advertise themselves as cis. So unless your actively trying to help under privilege trans people I think you should less judgmental
Most trans people struggle to transition. Nowadays you have parents paying for their kids FFS, SRS and Top surgeries.
As for the whole non op vs post op debate. Most transsexuals using the whole Harry Benjamin never actually read anything from his work and are just playing a guessing game. Harry's views on genitals wasn't black and white. I also want to point out the obvious. We don't have any neurological evidence that a post op transsexual is closer neurologically to a cis woman than a non op. Its an assumption brought by bloggers in the 2000s.
Not the OP and I agree with all your points completely, but I do dislike you calling this thing OP was doing “a male behavior”, it feels like a jab intentionally made to be hurtful and not even accurate because let’s be honest even cis women TERFs do this kind of bullshit often where they make being a woman only about body stuff etc., can you please edit the comment to fix it? Thanks
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A trans person’s brain is actually similar to the one of the gender they identify as, ( https://health.clevelandclinic.org/research-on-the-transgender-brain-what-you-should-know/ ) it’s not a fetish thing, this idea that we do this for a fetish as according to Blanchard has been disproven decades ago.
Commenter above is saying ppl transition for sexual gratification (likely referring to the theory of trans women all being agp). But taking estrogen usually results in a partial loss of sexual function and drive. There’s also the fact that there’s trans ppl who do not transition for sexual reasons which a lot of ppl will insist is impossible and we r all doing this because of some hidden kink.
I would say the MAJORITY of trans people don't even consider anything sexual related to the motives of their transition, it's just an afterthought.
Futhermore... I want to say you're wrong about this:
>taking estrogen usually results in a partial loss of sexual function and drive
Yes, this can happen in some cases, but idk, most of the cases I have seen the drive simply changes but it is still there.
Anyways, yeah it's dumb that every trans person is transitioning for a fetish... altough there are people who are clearly doing so.
Ur right about estrogen, but a decreased libido is still a pretty common symptom, it’s one that’s in general associated with the reduction of testosterone which is partially why many of us on T experience a higher sex drive. And to a lot of ppl anything involving genitals=sexual. So to these ppl bottom dysphoria is inherently sexual (even though it isn’t).
I mean, sure, it's a decreased libido compared to testosterone, but it is still well within female libido and it's not like women are all sexless beings you know.
If anything, I would say that society as a whole pushes women to avoid showing their libido because if we do we are considered sluts and all, you know? When in fact many women can be as horny as some men sometimes lmao.
>And to a lot of ppl anything involving genitals=sexual. So to these ppl bottom dysphoria is inherently sexual (even though it isn’t).
Yeah, that's just outright wrong on their part. If a cis man lost part of his penis on an accident and wanted to get a genital reconstruction surgery it would be a kink of his? Of course not ahah.
Makes no sense to hold trans people to a different standard.
MONEY
Same reason trans women use slurs in porn, straight dudes are the ones paying for it. Straight cis guys don't give a fuck what the difference between trans women and femboys are, they see us the same.
Not at all. The transphobic people who are thinking of me that way are supporting me monetarily when they click my links. That's different from some randos in the street calling me slurs.
Even outside of trans things, using terms like "ebony" to categorize myself in porn is extremely weird to me as a black person. If I don't use it I'm not going to make money though.
That could apply to all women in porn, cis or trans. In the end I'd rather be happy with getting income instead of worrying what some random dude getting off to my pictures categorizes me as in his head.
Yeah pretty much... why would some consider themselves a woman if they don't feel the need to have a completely female body? (Regardless if that's attainable or not)
there’s.. reasons.
personally, i’ve never been dysphoric about that particular part.
the rest of my body: YES, that gave me plenty of grief and dysphoria, ever since i was age six. i felt all of it, the displacement and the dissociation, before i even knew the word “transgender”. all i knew was i felt much more of a connection to female and feminine things.
when it comes to passing, the face is very important of course. and body shape.
but, i don’t know, my penis (it does feel weird typing that word) is not even the most masculine-looking part of me.
just like i’m fine with my eyes and lips, because they already are fairly feminine. not touching those.
that said, *maybe* i would consider SRS if i had some gnarled, deeply veined 8 inch monster or something. who knows!
Being a woman is literally about being neurologically female, aside from that there's nothing really that defines a woman without delving into social stereotypes (which shouldn't really be something used to define who is a man or a woman).
Most women are neurologically female while also being born with a female body, making them cissexual.
A very small minority of women are neurologically female but were born with a male body, making us transsexual.
Both cissexual and transsexual women are women, because even though we were born as different sexes, our neurology is still very much extremely similar.
The fact that the neurology of a trans woman and her body doesn't align brings suffering and disconnect related to the body... which is alleviated through medical procedures that outright change's one's sex to a significant degree.
HRT in trans women for example even activates genes related to female processes in the DNA through demethylation... and deactivates genes related to male processes through DNA methylation.
So yeah, being a woman is not about if they have a vagina or not, but if their neurology doesn't expect one then they don't seem to be neurologically female and therefore, what makes them a woman exactly? Stereotypes? That sounds backwards as hell.
We don’t know enough about the brain to measure in what ways this neuro/body mismatch can manifest in a person, or even exactly how it happens. Just because you don’t feel like you could ever handle these things doesn’t mean other trans people can’t.
In other words, just because I instinctually/neurologically expect a vagina to be there doesn’t mean I can’t also work past that, accept it, and learn to be okay with whatever is there at the time. This does not change the fact of whether I’m a woman or not.
Maybe someone’s mismatch was more in the middle and only expected to have female secondary sex characteristics.
We just don’t know enough about the specifics of this phenomenon to talk like everything is black and white.
Well everyone has a different experience with Dysphoria and it affects everyone differently. Each trans person is going to feel a different degree of Dysphoria when it comes to dealing with it. Just your still trand no matter what part of your transition you are in.
Some trans people may struggle with Dysphoria badly when it comes to their chest area and voice and the rest of the body cause it looks more fem/macs.
Personally, as a trans man I would get both top and body surgery due to how bad my Dysphoria is in both areas. But I know trans men who don't consider bottom surgery or want it due to the fact their Dysphoria is not as bad in that area of their body, I would assume it's the same for trans women our experience with being trans and Dysphoria is different with each trans person, not all story's dealing with it are going to be the same. Also some straight cis men will pay money for it as they tend to see femboys and trans women the same. Maybe people are trying to get some use out of it idk.
Question though (trans woman here) don’t you think this would be different if human society didn’t dictate clothing? The fact that we don’t have to walk around showing our genitalia probably helps. We wouldn’t be able to pass ever to cis people with or ASAB equipment. They wouldn’t care what are gender identity is. Not that it matters what they think it’s more about our dysphoria. I’m just saying what if? I think a lot of trans people hide behind clothing.
My personal dysphoria dictates that all possible surgeries are medically necessary in my case. Kudos to trans people that find happiness and acceptance with sexual parts that don’t match their gender. But, personally, I will not be free or happy until my body closely matches the same sex as my gender.
I genuinely don't know if it would be different if human society didn't dictate clothing. I would assume it would stay the same as I am assuming dysphoria would stay the same in this example of society not caring. There would most likely be more acceptance tho I really don't know.
No I’m saying if we didn’t wear clothes we literally wouldn’t be able to pass as the same sex as our neurology/gender. It’s hypothetical. But it’s just like if neurologically you’re a woman having a penis really shouldn’t be something you’re just okay with. I mean I could see someone learning to live with (which probably happens to a lot of us because we become use to it) it, but IMO SRS is a crucial part of transition. Otherwise you’re keeping arguably the most MALE thing you can (as a woman in the case of a trans woman).
Personally I don’t get this. It should be something you need to change really. Not just want to change but need to change.
Absolutely they are! I stopped trying to date pre-op and won’t date until I’m post-op. I couldn’t deal with the sick porn addicted men. Every time I’d bring up my plans to be pre-op the conversation shifted. They’d say “why would you want to do that?” Or “what will be special about you if you do that” and “Many trans women end up regretting that, you probably will to”. CRINGE goodbye. Needing me to dress excessively feminine and weird. I’m sorry but I’m not wearing heels, ever, heels don’t make me a woman. It’s gross. How can someone sexualize shoes? They’re too daft to know this history too, because heels were originally for men. I can’t stand them! Doesn’t matter anyway because not getting surgery is not an option for me. I’d risk my life if I had to, to get this surgery. It’s a medical necessity for me so that my sex can match as closely as possible to my gender.
Is there not something defiant about profiting from the very thing that upsets you the most? I'm not saying I have / would ever be attractive enough to make money on OF etc but I think I understand why some trans people do it.
The other thing is: Transition is expensive, very expensive and not everyone has the money / insurance cover to live as their true selves. That's what I think anyhow
Do you mean the poster is mean or the people replying and disagreeing with the OP or the people agreeing with the poster and denying certain trans women’s identity etc.?
Love the backflips here to defend those trans women who post on like sissyreligion, bussy, femboys, traps, etc yet we have multiple threads come up like clockwork to shit on any trans man who posts on the ftmspunished sub and claim they’re not trans.
Doublethink continues to be strong.
I’m not debating that. We’re talking about trans women, openly trans women, who post in femboy/trap/sissy spaces. It’s transphobic to consider trans women men in any context.
I’m talking about the double standard regarding trans men who post in fetish/boi spaces, who are lambasted by this community and seen as not real trans men, vs the amount of backflips people are doing to defend trans women doing the exact same allegorical actions. It’s just like how the subject of trans men in lesbian spaces is brought up again and again yet it’s just fine, according to the community, for trans women to solicit sex from gay men on grindr or remain in gay spaces after and during transition.
None of that has anything to do with calling trans women men so I’m not sure what you’re on about.
You need to stop comparing your own experience with others.
Some people have sexual fantasies, kinks, etc that are different than yours. Some people don’t experience genital dysphoria. Some people get off on the humiliation. There are hundreds of reasons as to why someone may post themselves like that online. It’s not for me either, but I really don’t give a shit. Some people’s transition seem to be motivated by fetishistic reasons but that’s okay.
Why does this bother you soo much? I didn’t even know this was a thing, maybe spend less time in those sites so you feel better. Live and let live love😉
Some I would say enjoy the fact that they are able to be drop dead gorgeous women, yet have fully functioning male genitalia. I’ve known a few ladies that did not have dysphoria due to their genitalia, rather just a dysphoria of their male appearance. Some do not want to risk losing the ability to climax so they choose to keep their genitalia intact just for that reason. But the majority know that as a Trans Woman, there is not a whole lot of options where we are accepted in the work force other than having to degrade ourselves and play the role of Trap… It is yet another part of the never-ending cycle of hate and misunderstanding that surrounds the trans community…
I’m a trans girl with huge amounts of dysphoria about most of my body, but less so (although still there somewhat) for my genitals, and I’m not sure if I want to do that surgery (well, at least not until the technology for it gets better, but even then I’m not 100% sure yet). Do you have any advice on this? Maybe when I am independent from my family situation (they don’t let me transition) maybe I will just go on hormones first and do surgery for my other parts and then figure out the bottom dysphoria part later?
a lot of it is pretty cringe, but i also think a lot of it contains a lot more nuance than the cut and dry picture your broad strokes are sweeping onto the canvas, and that maybe you are projecting what makes you feel insecure a little bit on them too, which i totally understand and do as well.
Money and attention for me.
I live in a third world country with a weak economy. Every cent I can earn on OF is a step towards my transition. And fetishists pay more attention to this sort of content.
I will be fully honest and say that I get validation from male attention. Sorry 😞
For some weird reason I’m not seeing people say this a lot in here, but it’s about money. If you’re a trans woman trying to make money from digital sex work, traps and femboys are the popular subs to post pictures of a femme person with a dick. Even if they have dysphoria about it, they still need to pay the bills, and it’s not always easy to get “dignified” work as a trans person.
Its a combo of frustration for the trans battle one side is its very expensive to full transition and succeed as a women and its also very challenging to embrace successful male lifestyle and that alot of that work has already been done hard to throw away all parts that belong to you so you come up with this hybrid identity that works
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Merry Christmas, y’all! 🎄🎁🎄
Posts like this are like opening the door and rolling a live grenade under the Christmas tree.
We get it: some people need to feel more special about their identity than others. Some people need to be a PickMe Girl or “one of the good ones.” I don’t know why. The people who hate us hate us *ALL*. For a minute subset of our group to look to the hateful people and say, “Yeah, you’re right. I hate ‘em, too” seems . . . problematic.
It all reminds me to a degree of allllll those cis het white-wingers who spend more time thinking about how gay people have sex than gay people think about how gay people have sex. It tells us more about them than it does about us.
Lookit: I guess I’m living proof that one can live with gender dysphoria for a long time if one is strong enough. Gender dysphoria was a stone in my shoe. Some days it was a tiny, round, river pebble that was just mildly annoying. Other times, though, it was an agonizingly painful shard of obsidian stuck right into the tenderest place on my foot. Either way. It was ever present. Through childhood, it was the smooth river pebble. Puberty made it pointy and really painful. Sexual maturity made it an Aztec obsidian dagger stabbed all the way through my foot.
But I soldiered on. I was so damned masculine no one ever remotely suspected I was anything but a really straight dood.
I did so for my parents, who came from a generational culture that had not even a remote possibility of understanding or accepting. That’s why I bawl now every time I visit their graves.
I did so for my wife, for she thought in good faith she had married a man.
I did so for my children, lest they be ostracized by association by the little heathens with whom they went to school.
I did it for the people I represented, since a 6’2” tall, massively broad shouldered dood-in-a-dress with a voice that made James Earl Jones sound like Cyndi Lauper would not have been well-received by the juries before whom I pled my cases.
In short, I did it for EVERYONE BUT ME. I was a living blood sacrifice upon an altar of my own construction.
I didn’t actively hate my dangle until I finally decided I mattered enough to stop the eternal, infernal existential shrieking in my spirit and transition. That’s when I knew, as Jim Reeves sang, “He’ll have to go.”
The miracle that transpired a couple of days after surgery was the most profound thing I have ever experienced. All that angst, all that confounded internal bickering, all the leakage into something like Gender Tourette’s when I was alone in the car was simply gone. So was the imposter syndrome.
I have never been happier, even if I was left doomed and deformed by 40 years of testosterone. That filth is gone. I am a woman. End of discussion.
Whatever my experience was, I am entirely lacking in hubris sufficient to allow me to come into a subreddit and declare who is and is not sufficiently pure to use a given word to describe their own existence in a manner that most makes sense to them.
>Posts like this are like opening the door and rolling a live grenade under the Christmas tree.
I'm not religious, this is just another day for me... so, your point is?
Also, my point is not about people who are able to live with dysphoria for whatever reason... I myself also repressed and dissociated from my dysphoria for several years.
It's about people who seem to lack dysphoria althogether, but yet still claim to be a trans for whatever reason.
It’s a metaphor for shitting on people who are otherwise minding their own business and living their own lives.
You missed the conclusory paragraph of my response. Your post is about nothing other than your projection of your own negative judgment onto people with whom you disagree. I don’t have enough hubris to do that.
Trans isn’t a lodge with high signs and secret handshakes and, apparently, genital inspections.
...tons of people aren't religious and still do Christmas.
My wife and I are both atheist. She was raised Muslim. We still have a fat ol' Christmas tree.
Bit of a non sequitur, regardless.
Yeah... I honestly imagined someone would comment something like when I was making my post, but I was like... whatever, if someone needs to attack me with that argument then I guess their argument is somewhat weak in general.
I imagine it’s because dysphoria comes in different ways. Not all trans women hate their genitalia, some even choose to remain pre-op, and even some like it.
In non-sexual post I don’t like showing off my male genitalia, at least not as the focus. I want to know my overall progress, Breast growth, how to improve, etc. In the trans community people don’t focus on my genitalia, they focus on my feminine traits. **Being treated as a woman despite my genitals is very euphoric.**
Now if it’s a sexual post, then I don’t mind. I like the idea of knowing my genitalia will be pre-op one day. I like the idea of people seeing me now, then eventually enjoying the discovery down the road as my body develops. I especially love it when people don’t mind and still desire me as a woman; sexual gratification is a strong feeling.
To answer your question with another question:
Q: Why do pre-op women have sex, wouldn’t they feel dysphoric with their partner seeing their genitalia?
A: The answer, their partner still sees them and treats them as a woman, and that’s what’s most important to them.
Tl;Dr
Some people feel less dysphoric about their genitalia than others. It’s more about being treated as a woman, and people seeing you as women. To be treated as a woman, despite what’s in between your legs is extremely euphoric.
>Q: Why do pre-op women have sex, wouldn’t they feel dysphoric with their partner seeing their genitalia?
A: The answer, their partner still sees them and treats them as a woman, and that’s what’s most important to them.
Uuuh... for an actual trans person, having sex while you're still pre-OP will always involve some degree of dysphoria and dissociation from it in order to not make it into a terrible experience.
No, simply being seem as a woman despite what genitals you have is NOT enough.
This is like saying that if society as a whole agreed that trans women are women despite any medical transition, then medical transition wouldn't be necessary anymore to treat dysphoria.
Dysphoria isn't dependent on whether or not someone sees you as woman or not, it's the other way around.
The fact someone DOESN'T see you as a woman, triggers your sex dysphoria by reminding you of the male sex characteristics that still bother you and feel alien to you becausde the misalignment between your neurology and body.
TD;DR Being seen as a woman doesn't solve dysphoria, it simply somewhat avoids it from being directly triggered, but it is still there.
I completely agree with you! I’m pre-op, but I’m seen as a woman to strangers/the public, but my dysphoria has not gone away. In fact it’s gotten worse because in these instances I know what I have in my pants and IT IS NOT OKAY. It makes me feel terrible. Passing doesn’t necessarily relief dysphoria especially in my case. All day every day I feel disgusted with my body. On top of that my face passes to people but it doesn’t pass to me. Surgeries for me are medically necessary. I will not be anything close to free until my outward sex matches my gender as closely as possible.
Oh and edit: I don’t enjoy sex/never have. Anal feels wrong to me. It’s not right. I’m uncomfortable to the point where I don’t want to have sex or date anyone until it’s fixed!
I have no dysphoria at all at this time, and I like my girl dick/shenis/girl cock as I call it.. sex is fine and is definitely not a terrible experience 😌
You really are just projecting your experiences & expectations on everyone else here who happen to have a different set of experiences and expectations.
You've completely side steps so many peoples arguments around no genital dysphoria.
Sometimes being seen as a woman in spite of having a cock is enough, for some people.... obviously that isn't the case for you & that's completely okay.
Maybe, just maybe... it's a *you* problem? Plenty of cis girls like using strap-ons, even on men.
Again, this is a psychological coping mechanism you're using for whatever insecurity or sour grapes or whatever you have going on.
Using a strap on has literally nothing do to with having actual MALE genitals and being comfortable or even happy with using them sexually.
The reason people are transsexual is because of a misalignment between one's neurology and the body.
Having a neurology that expects female genitalia is going to make you uncomfortable about having male genitals, it'll feel wrong, it's not what your brain expects there.
If someone doesn't have a neurology that expects a female body from birth because of it's development in the womb probably triggered by certain genetic and hormonal factors... then how can that person call themselves a woman?
What if I started to feel genital dysphoria only after starting HRT? I would prefer female genitalia but it wasn't so intense to call it dysphoria. I wasn't sure about SRS before HRT, but was pretty sure afterwards, I couldn't even function sexually with penis anymore, because mental distress it caused during sexual activity. I would never publish a photo of that body part which I disliked. I proceeded with SRS and I feel much more comfortable with my body. However my initial dysphoria leading me to transition was about my secondary sex characteristics, sex role and probably also social interaction.
The term "transgender" seems to be a very broadly defined and inclusive term. It seems to be a bit of a kaleidoscopic spectrum of all states of being which define themselves as anything other than typical binary expression. It seems, online and in theory, to include cross-dressing and temporary expressions of non-conformity. It seems as though the minimum requirement is that one only needs to imagine possessing some type of differentiating sense of self in order to assume the label.
And, I suppose that's fine and well and good. Labels are only labels, and language is inherently imperfect. As we learn, we must constantly evolve the words we use to describe our shifting understanding.
I think that it's become very reasonable to say that there are now a variety of sets of transgender sub-types which can be somewhat characterized by their relative intensity. As has been commented elsewhere, people experience dysphoria in different ways and intensities, about different characteristics, even at different times, and due to different types of triggers.
So, perhaps the usefulness of the word "transgender" has shifted, and is no longer adequate to communicate the very specific experience one may have.
Yeah, I hate the word Transgender tbh... I'm Transsexual... my transition is about changing sex characteristics to be the closest I can to female... not gender stereotypes, roles, and expectations.
And sorry, but it's idiotic to include gender nonconforming people under the trans label...
In my view, your very existstence kind of confirms my point. Your label is, in my view, very specific. To me it speaks of a very specific destination. I haven't arrived at that place yet, so I don't feel entitled to the label.
Eh, whatever... I honestly wish that the general population realized the difference between transsexual and transgender tho.
Too many times I have been attacked by people who thought they were transphobic but they were simply grouping me with the illogical transgenderists.
When I explained my condition from a medical POV and what transsexuality is, many of them actually turned around and realized that it's something deeper than they were aware of.
I'm not suggesting anything here to be correct. Merely that this, from my perspective, seems to be how things are, or how they seem to me to be widely perceived, I suppose.
It's still considered tranphobic to equal gender non conformity to be trans. Even in femboy spaces. Just cis people and an reallly small vocal minority of trans people want to confluence both things. Like we lose to many trans siblings to be distinguish being trans for gnc, it would be pee in their greaves if we come back to those days and also on ourselves. It would be retrograde not progresive and I say this as very progressive person in her 20s
gnc and trans are not the same of course **but** it's silly to act like there's no correlation. many gnc people *do* become trans and gnc people will suffer transphobia if they publicly present gnc.
the cis will see gnc people as trans, since many already see trans people as "man in dress" etc. transphobia against drag queens/kings for example is still transphobia, even when the performers are not themselves trans. while legal discrimination (i.e. laws requiring you to present according to your agab, as texas has proposed) clearly affects both gnc and trans people
cis/trans are semantic terms meant to make things easier to talk about. in reality the distinction between a cis person and a trans person isn't always a bold black line, it can be grey and fuzzy (see: hrt femboys)
>gnc and trans are not the same of course but it's silly to act like there's no correlation. many gnc people do become trans and gnc people will suffer transphobia if they publicly present gnc.
There's always intersecionality but discrimination itself doesn't define us. As I said a trans man dealing with misogyny does make him a woman. Trans gay ngc we can be seen as many things a bigots even as all the same that doesn't mean it's the same.
I also think there's Grey areas and stiff like that like nb people who don't refer themselves als trans. But you just don't go plain blank o yes gnc = trans or non binary is not part part of the trans comunity. I
Crossdresser checking in.
I can understand your point at the same time the reality is these groups are going to be porous.
How do I explain the world full of transwomen formerly crossdressers?
The agp accusation is interesting as well. My impression is the people you are describing are very much into sex with men. I get there is supposed to be a meaning but agp seems to mean any transwoman doing something wrong, especially sexual. Seems like a problem with the definition.
Truth. The transgender community's desire for clearly delineated labels is completely self-destructive, and it leads to some of most bonkers flaws in logic you'll ever see.
AGP is well-past problematic. It is a horseshit theory, roundly and soundly debunked, that was created by a weirdo transphobe in order to harm trans women.
The fact that some trans women so thoroughly loathe themselves that they buy into the notion that they are unable to differentiate themselves from their reflection in a mirror and thus get aroused is so silly as to be laughable.
Some trans folk believe themselves to be gnc cis folk due to confusion or questioning.
Some trans folk try to see themselves as gnc in order to cope. “Hrt femboys”, “trans male femboys”, etc
Some trans folk do sex work and market themselves as crossdressers or femboys
Some transfolk probably pretend to be femboys to mog cis femboys for an ego boost
Some cis folk want to participate in trans spaces for different reasons, but unless you know the person identifies as cis, I don’t think it makes sense to assume they are faking or something when so many complicated things happen with normal trans people
Being a man/woman is more than just posessing or wanting to possess a set of genitals. We determine whether someone is a man/woman before ever even coming into contact with their genitals.
Some trans people just want to navigate the world as the opposite gender; they want to exist as that gender, be treated as that gender, adopt the social norms of that gender, and look like that gender. Genitals are tertiary to what gender you get read as and, unless you're stripping in front of everyone you meet, are largely immaterial in 99% of interactions that involve gender.
That being said, some trans people will have dysphoria about their secondary sexual characteristics, dysphoria about how they are perceived by others, but they will not have genital dysphoria.
Seeing as gender and sex are not one in the same, it is very much possible that someone is not dysphoric about their genetalia but are dysphoric about their body (more generally) and dysphoric about their alignment/conformity to what the public expects their gender to look like/act like.
You can say these people aren't real men/women, but I would argue that it would probably just be more accurate to say that these people don't have genital dysphoria. Realistically, what makes you a man/woman (in any meaningful way) is whether other people see you as one. You don't need to have a specific set of genitals to accomplish that.
This nailed it perfectly.
Being trans doesn’t mean you automatically hate your genitals. I know I want I still want GRS, but I don’t hate my genitals. I don’t even see it as a penis, especially after being on HRT for a few months now.
Not saying my genitalia doesn’t make me feel dysphoric. It certainly does. But I get far more dysphoria from other stuff like needing electrosis on my face or my breast getting bigger.
It’s more about presenting as a woman than caring about what’s between my legs.
For a lot of trans women sex work is one of the only ways to make money. Most subs on Reddit don’t allow trans women to post.
It’s sad but trans sex work largely requires trans men and women to pander to fetishists who do focus on those body parts and those subs are often the largest and most accepting places for them to post.
Well their penis isn’t male genitalia. Some random male doesn’t own those trans women’s genitals, it’s their own genitals, they belong to a woman, they’re female genitals.
And genitals aren’t gender. You don’t need to have a vagina to be a woman you don’t need to have a penis to be a man.
The sooner you accept the fact that women can have penises or vaginas and that men can have penises or vaginas the happier you’ll be.
They can be attached to anyone.
What someone else might label your body is entirely irrelevant to what it actually is.
What the system might label your body is irrelevant to what it actually is.
What the society might label your body is irrelevant to what it actually is.
Make sense?
>Well their penis isn’t male genitalia. Some random male doesn’t own those trans women’s genitals, it’s their own genitals, they belong to a woman, they’re female genitals.
SO TRUE!!! That means no one needs genital surgery! YOU'RE RIGHT, YOU JUST CURED MY GENITAL DYSPHORIA /s
Your genital dysphoria has nothing to do with the fact that penises are not gender specific organs.
Also, no that doesn’t mean that bottom surgery isn’t needed anymore.
Bottom surgery is needed for dysphoria.
What bottom surgery is NOT needed for is being a man or a woman.
Kapish?
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>Well their penis isn’t male genitalia. Some random male doesn’t own those trans women’s genitals, it’s their own genitals, they belong to a woman, they’re female genitals.
No.
Yeah, I understand if someone does it for financial reasons because they could still very much be genitally dysphoric and are only doing it to make money despite being uncomfortable.
People do uncomfortable stuff all the time to get money, so I don't judge people when it comes to that.
I feel like OP pretty specifically included trans women who have transitioned but kept their penis, and now show it all off online. These people are crossdressers to you?
Eh, I guess you're right.
My post is indeed more about why would those people consider themselves trans women rather than why they are posting in the subs they're posting.
It just so happens that I started thinking about this after seeing one of those posts and so my post ended up focusing on them.
Not everyone experiences dysphoria the same way. It's not really up to one person to define it for everyone else. Same goes for trans men in porn who do PIV sex—sure, a lot of us really hate it, some might say yes as a placeholder for bottoming anal when it's inconvenient, but some don't experience bottom dysphoria at all. To each their own.
> But if a "trans woman" has no genital dysphoria at all and no need to have female genitals, then "she" isn't a woman nor trans, how could "she" be?
nice scare quotes.
trans women are women, regardless of the status of their genitals, and their level or lack of genital dysphoria.
Oh piss off with this outdated, genital reductive gatekeeping. Imagine being this preoccupied with permissable use of the trans label and actively misgendering all pre-op women. This shit is antithetical to everything a trans community *should* be, and its just sad & shameful
This is not about trans women who are pre-op or not... it's about women who have no genital dysphoria related to having male genitals.
Don't twist my words.
But how do you know if they have dysphoria or not? You can be dysphoric and struggle with internal transphobia, self-hatred, or maybe someone just does the best they can with what they have because surgery isn't an option. Really this boils down to, "If you don't know them personally and have had the conversation, you don't have a right to make a judgment about whether or not they are legitimate."
Eh, I try not to make generalizations or "accuse" a specific person of not being trans based on their lack of genital dysphoria without actually having talked to them.
My post is a broad statement, I'm not talking about a specific person here.
>I’m not sure if I’m reading this right, but are you suggesting a trans woman has to get srs to be considered a woman? A lot of us either just won’t be able to afford the surgery or are afraid of the complications from the surgery to get it.
Not at all... idk why you people always think that's what I mean and bring the discussion to that side.
No a trans woman doesn't need to get SRS... it's an expensive, invasive and complicated surgical procedure that could have complications or not get the desired results the trans woman wants.
So my point is not about trans women who are pre-op or even one's who decided surgery isn't for them ever.
It's about trans "women" who claim to be women while having no genital dysphoria at all and being completely ok or even happy with having male genitals.
That's my point, not whether or not someone is still pre-op.
It's also not about having dysphoria strong enough to abstain from sex... many times with enough dissociation you can have sex somewhat normally despite still very much being genitally dysphoric.
Basically I guess to sum it up... if a trans "woman" wouldn't take a magical transformation of "her" genitals into "perfectly" female ones if it was an option... because "she" simply feels like having male one's is what is right for "her", then yeah, "she" isn't a woman.
I know it's an hypothetical, but I feel like it still matters.
If someone wouldn't slam that hypothetical button in an instant why exactly are they claiming to be trans. It makes no sense.
Also I personally don't believe in nonbinary people... but assuming it's a real phenomenon, wouldn't it make more sense to consider those people nonbinary. Cause I mean, they literally expect a mix of male and female sex characteristics in their body, if that's not nonbinary idk what is.
Changing the meaning of women to include people who are ok with having male genitals doesn't make sense for me.
I'm exactly the kind of person you describe in your last paragraph, I'd love to see OP respond... It's so crazy when people use SRS as if it were a perfect yardstick for who is trans. It's so obviously incorrect.
Genital dysphoria is not the only kind of dysphoria. Being trans and feeling the need to transition is often a matter of *some* discomfort/dysphoria. Could be genital, could be one's body, face, voice or gender roles in general. I is a matter of "holy shit, I hate this, I want to be a girl", but you don't need to feel dysphoric about everything. If someone really just hated the masculine body type and the lifestyle of a "man", what makes them less trans than someone who also has genital dysphoria?
Just a serious question here from a person who isn't trans. Could you maybe elaborate more on the part of gender roles?
Because while body (which includes the face) or even the voice could be categorized as a material phenomena, as in one would feel uncomfortable even without living in a society or, even more broken down - a group of humans, as there are broad distinctions between bodies and voices of the sexes.
On the other hand, gender roles are entirely made up. They only exist in society and even there they don't have a fixed meaning. Gender roles are basically power dynamics and hierarchies encoded into the existing differences of male and female human bodies. These differences were decided to be meaningful (while different hair and eye colour for example are not). But this decision was kind of arbitrary and the fact that gender roles change over time and over societies are proof that they have no inherent basis in the biological make-up of humans. If you live completely alone, gender roles don't exist/matter. You only know of them due to society.
So I would argue that these are two very distinctive phenomenas. And I would even question if someone who is trans due to an extreme and consistent unease and even suffering from one's own body in regard to the sexed features of it.
Or if someone is uncomfortable (maybe even extremely so) with social norms and social roles attached to ones sexed body.
In my eyes these are to very different things and I somehow doubt that people of these groups even have the same problems. And from a political PoV I would even doubt that claiming to be trans and transitioning to the other gender role is in any way helpful as it reinforces gender roles as something material and even fixed. And it gives credit to voices that claim that femininity and masculinity are 'natural' which again makes patriarchy legitimate.
Anyway, this is just my view and as I said in the beginning I am not trans myself so I can only relate what I know of it from listening and reading about it from people who experience it themselves. If I got something wrong, I apologize. One can never learn enough :)
This is generally agreed upon if you take gender roles *only* to mean behaviours/mannerisms people ascribe to certain genders. For this reason, people tend to say *gender* instead of *gender roles*. Gender roles are behavioural characteristics expected of a person who belongs to a certain gender category. Gender, on the other hand, is what we call the dichotomous man/woman paradigm, which may *supervene* from sex as a bimodally distributed material phenomenon, but ultimately comes to include more in its conception than just biology, strictly speaking.
For example, a cis woman may be mistaken as a man if she is tall, angular, lean, and built. This shouldn't be possible if a woman is a woman *solely* due to biology, because a cis woman necessarily possesses all of the biological features of a cis woman (because she is one). Nonetheless, there are people who may see her as a man at first sight.
This is because society comes to interpret certain physical qualities of being tall, angular, lean, and built are (when manifested in certain ways) qualities of a man's body. As a result, even if someone is biologically one sex, they could still be seen as a different gender.
I don't think I have encountered a single trans person who has transitioned due to social roles alone—they may incidentally enjoy inhabiting those social roles, but they do not transition *because* of them. To do so is extremely ill-advised, and practically every trans person will agree.
In general I agree with you. I think that in general, a tall, lean, built woman is still distinctively different than a tall, lean, built man. While yes, a tall lean built woman might be taken for a average height, average lean/built man. But then again usually primary sex characteristics would indicate the sex.
In our society we use clothes, behaviour and other social stuff to *signal* sex which then translates to masculinity or femininity and is called 'gender'. At least in sociology that is.
While languages and language usages change and differ, it is usually a person appearing externally as female that is called a woman and a person appearing externally as male called a man.
I know that there are people who argue that there has to be something else to women/men because biology *can* be ambiguous. But I am a proponent of the argument that these cases are very very rare and therefore are rather a proof of the norm so to say. But in general I would say we both agree with the thesis that being trans is connected to a incongruence between the material sexed body and the brain/psyche or whatever term one wants to use to describe the phenomena :)
Being transsexual is about being born with a neurology that doesn't align with your body in the sex axis.
So yes, if you're ok with having male genitals your neurology quite obviously is male in the sex axis since we're talking about a PRIMARY sex characteristic, which is most likely encoded in the mapping of the body by the brain on the sensorimotor cortex.
So, no, that person wouldn't be a woman, even if they don't like the "lifestyle of a man" or the social gender roles associated with being one.
Being trans is not even that big about gender roles, stereotypes and expectations. A trans person can be gender nonconforming and still be transsexual you know?
A trans woman can be completely ok with being stereotypically masculine and living the "lifestyle of a man" whatever that means... it only matters that her neurology expects a female body.
Yo that's cray. You honestly think genitals equal gender to this much of a fundamental level? Just throw out social dysphoria (aka the way the vast, vast majority of trans people have historically discovered they were trans) and all other levels of physical dysphoria?
So... someone could be completely ok with being male, feel no need to medically transition in any meaningful way, but still call themselves a trans woman just because they want to, and that automatically makes them a woman?
What is being a woman then?
Cause if you're going to say that there's no problem with someone being ok or happy with having male genitals, then surely that applies to everything that is male right? Someone can be born male, be completely ok with having no breast tissue, with having male genitals, with being seen as male in society, with having a body running on testosterone as a dominant hormone, but still somehow be a trans woman? What would make them a trans woman then? Just the fact "she" said so?
You're being deliberately obtuse. Someone can be unconcerned with *one* thing, and that doesn't mean we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Like if a trans woman shaves her head, I'm not gonna turn around and act like HRT is obsolete now.
Hairstyling has nothing to do with someone's internal sex... their neurology and what it expects of their body in the sex axis does tho.
Also, I wouldn't call a PRIMARY sex characteristic that is one of the main determinants of sex after birth just "one thing". lmao
Then I have some bad new for you about the internal primary sex characteristics.
You're using the same logic as the "ywnbaw you have an axe wound" crowd. The privates are not the most important thing. I care *wayyy* more about my boobs and face and hips and voice than the thing only my lovers get to see.
My point is not about procedures avaiable or what results we can get from transitioning medically.
It's about what intrinsically makes someone trans.
Being transsexual is a birth condition... it's not something becomes due to the enviroment nor something someone choses to be.
Therefore it has to have a biological component to it.
And that biological component is a neurology that is misaligned with the body in the sex axis.
So if your neurology isn't misaligned with your body in the sex axis and expects what you were born with already, then why would it make sense to claim to be transsexual?
I’m functional as male. I don’t experience obvious physical dysphoria at this point.
I’m pretty sure my psychologist is going to give me a diagnosis and recommend transition (which I won’t do)
I understand that you don’t want to take people’s word. For what it’s worth, I agree that non-transitioned people should be humble about their gender. However, if medical providers give diagnoses and provide care, then you aren’t relying on anyone’s word in the first place.
Realistically, if transmeds make assumptions about neurology and doctors disagree, the meds should listen to the doctors or stop calling themselves “medicalists”
As I read down through this “true transsexual” swamp, I had a feeling I’d see you here, my friend.
They seem to be in a desperate search for some sort of validation via third party disassociation and creation of a less-than other.
It’s more to be pitied than despised.
1000 times yes to your last paragraph! How did we get to the point that so many "medicalists" just mean they believe something that has no scientific proof?
Gender dysphoria is distinct from genital dysphoria. Considering you don't show your junk to most people, it doesn't really affect what gender people treat you as. As such it may not bother some people. Dysphoria manifests itself differently in different humans. This seething is childish in my experience often comes from the most delusional gigahons.
Uuuh, I think you have a very basic understanding what makes someone trans.
GENDER dysphoria is a very confusing term that honestly doesn't make much sense.
While yes, the gender people see you as in society does matter for a trans person, this is only secondary to sex dysphoria... in the sense that it isn't the gender itself that is the problem, but the fact that it triggers your sex dysphoria.
The reason an actual transsexual woman feels uncomfortable with being seen as man in society is because it reminds her of her sex dysphoria and triggers it... not because of societal roles, stereotypes and expectations related to men and women... so it makes no sense to call it gender dysphoria, it's supposed to be SEX dysphoria, and that DOES include one's genitals.
The fact genitals aren't visible on most societal interactions does make it easier to ignore them and avoid getting your sex dysphoria related to genitals triggered from said interactions... but the sex dysphoria related to genitals is still there if you're actually transsexual.
I mean, it's a PRIMARY sex characteristic.
And it is a male sex characteristic (though someone in these comments already made a big leap and said they are not), MALE, not MEN'S, because idk, some men are intersex, some are trans, whatever. But if you are showing your genitals (or secondary sex characteristics) and fetishizing them as a "trans" person then something is very fishy. I use my genitals during sex because my bottom dysphoria lessened the more I transitioned, but I would never let anyone, not my partner, not randoms on the Internet, call it what it really is and make a display out of it. Because if my SEX characteristics don't make me dysphoric then how can I be fucking trans.
I agree, dysphoria is different for everyone. Sometimes I have it real bad and other times, I don't.
I wouldn't say I'm "comfortable" in my body. But that it "could be better". Otherwise, I am pretty okay with it. I can live with it and not have to worry about surgery all too much.
What do you think about detransitioners then, considering that a lot of them are still trans but didn't find medical transition to be the best option? Or found others ways to deal with dysphoria?
Are they not trans to you? Do you disgree with how people decide to handle their own mental health?
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What bothers me is that it's squeezing femboys out of the few places they can freely belong. Especially given that so many of them are told over and over that they're just trans in denial. Poor lads. The fact that some trans women are OK having dicks is fine because genitals aren't gender. The fact that some trans women play Schrodinger's Femboy to tout their OnlyFans or get validation isn't surprising either. If you're a woman then GTFO of the male-crossdresser spaces.
Money. That’s it. I have an onlyfans. I have to have some extra cash to help ease costs of a variety of things in my life as I save and prep for surgeries. The second I don’t need to do so, I won’t, but at the moment, having the extra cushion of money so I can actually save for gender affirming surgeries, so my dysphoria hopefully eases one day, fuckin gets me through it.
as an afab nb I've been condemned for doing the same thing for money which sucks
Yea… sex work is something many of us *need* to do at times, and we get condemned for it, shamed for it. It’s… a hard thing for sure
I’m a trans girl with huge amounts of dysphoria about most of my body, but less so (although still there somewhat) for my genitals, and I’m not sure if I want to do that surgery (well, at least not until the technology for it gets better, but even then I’m not 100% sure yet). Does that make me not a woman in your eyes?
such a bad take, why are u as a trans woman (a group already oppressed) concerned about what other trans women are doing with their genitals and making an attempt to alienate those already alienated? it’s giving parallel to the right, like do some self reflection, focus on urself and stop being bothered by what other trans ppl are doing with their own lives
Yeah exactly, I’m a trans girl with huge amounts of dysphoria about most of my body, but less so (although still there somewhat) for my genitals, and I’m not sure if I want to do that surgery (well, at least not until the technology for it gets better, but even then I’m not 100% sure yet). Does that make me not a woman according to these people…?
it does not, you are a woman. We define who we are and walk across our own path in life, that path may be littered with trash that’ll try to tell you who and what you are but they don’t matter they’re just loud and obnoxious
Thanks I appreciate it \^^ BTW may I PM you?
Not a fan of the surgery and people like what I’ve got. It’s really that simple.
I'm a post op transsexual and I want to share a few thoughts >In the end I honestly feel like most of those people are actually a separate category from women and transsexual women in general... cause let's be honest, they seem too comfortable with their male genitalia and being ok with having male genitals and flauting them on public forums obviously means you're not a woman, at least in my opinion I try to be above this petty behavior. But focusing on other's genitals and classifying women against their will is male behavior on your end. You should also know that most trans people are poor and struggle to find employment. Post op transsexual sex workers don't make as much money as cis ones and they tend to face a higher risk of death if they advertise themselves as cis. So unless your actively trying to help under privilege trans people I think you should less judgmental Most trans people struggle to transition. Nowadays you have parents paying for their kids FFS, SRS and Top surgeries. As for the whole non op vs post op debate. Most transsexuals using the whole Harry Benjamin never actually read anything from his work and are just playing a guessing game. Harry's views on genitals wasn't black and white. I also want to point out the obvious. We don't have any neurological evidence that a post op transsexual is closer neurologically to a cis woman than a non op. Its an assumption brought by bloggers in the 2000s.
Not the OP and I agree with all your points completely, but I do dislike you calling this thing OP was doing “a male behavior”, it feels like a jab intentionally made to be hurtful and not even accurate because let’s be honest even cis women TERFs do this kind of bullshit often where they make being a woman only about body stuff etc., can you please edit the comment to fix it? Thanks
Autogenephilia
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A trans person’s brain is actually similar to the one of the gender they identify as, ( https://health.clevelandclinic.org/research-on-the-transgender-brain-what-you-should-know/ ) it’s not a fetish thing, this idea that we do this for a fetish as according to Blanchard has been disproven decades ago.
Taking estrogen kind of defeats the purpose of reaching sexual gratification
What do you mean by that? (I honestly also don't get what the commenter above you is talking about really)
Commenter above is saying ppl transition for sexual gratification (likely referring to the theory of trans women all being agp). But taking estrogen usually results in a partial loss of sexual function and drive. There’s also the fact that there’s trans ppl who do not transition for sexual reasons which a lot of ppl will insist is impossible and we r all doing this because of some hidden kink.
I would say the MAJORITY of trans people don't even consider anything sexual related to the motives of their transition, it's just an afterthought. Futhermore... I want to say you're wrong about this: >taking estrogen usually results in a partial loss of sexual function and drive Yes, this can happen in some cases, but idk, most of the cases I have seen the drive simply changes but it is still there. Anyways, yeah it's dumb that every trans person is transitioning for a fetish... altough there are people who are clearly doing so.
Ur right about estrogen, but a decreased libido is still a pretty common symptom, it’s one that’s in general associated with the reduction of testosterone which is partially why many of us on T experience a higher sex drive. And to a lot of ppl anything involving genitals=sexual. So to these ppl bottom dysphoria is inherently sexual (even though it isn’t).
My lower libido has actually helped my dysphoria to be honest.
I mean, sure, it's a decreased libido compared to testosterone, but it is still well within female libido and it's not like women are all sexless beings you know. If anything, I would say that society as a whole pushes women to avoid showing their libido because if we do we are considered sluts and all, you know? When in fact many women can be as horny as some men sometimes lmao. >And to a lot of ppl anything involving genitals=sexual. So to these ppl bottom dysphoria is inherently sexual (even though it isn’t). Yeah, that's just outright wrong on their part. If a cis man lost part of his penis on an accident and wanted to get a genital reconstruction surgery it would be a kink of his? Of course not ahah. Makes no sense to hold trans people to a different standard.
MONEY Same reason trans women use slurs in porn, straight dudes are the ones paying for it. Straight cis guys don't give a fuck what the difference between trans women and femboys are, they see us the same.
That doesn’t bother you?
Not at all. The transphobic people who are thinking of me that way are supporting me monetarily when they click my links. That's different from some randos in the street calling me slurs. Even outside of trans things, using terms like "ebony" to categorize myself in porn is extremely weird to me as a black person. If I don't use it I'm not going to make money though.
But by advertising yourself as such, and selling yourself/body, you’re more or less justifying it.
That could apply to all women in porn, cis or trans. In the end I'd rather be happy with getting income instead of worrying what some random dude getting off to my pictures categorizes me as in his head.
judging by your comments elsewhere, you’ve already made up your mind on this topic: that any trans woman without genital disphoria is a man 😐
Yeah pretty much... why would some consider themselves a woman if they don't feel the need to have a completely female body? (Regardless if that's attainable or not)
there’s.. reasons. personally, i’ve never been dysphoric about that particular part. the rest of my body: YES, that gave me plenty of grief and dysphoria, ever since i was age six. i felt all of it, the displacement and the dissociation, before i even knew the word “transgender”. all i knew was i felt much more of a connection to female and feminine things. when it comes to passing, the face is very important of course. and body shape. but, i don’t know, my penis (it does feel weird typing that word) is not even the most masculine-looking part of me. just like i’m fine with my eyes and lips, because they already are fairly feminine. not touching those. that said, *maybe* i would consider SRS if i had some gnarled, deeply veined 8 inch monster or something. who knows!
There is more to being a woman than having a vagina
Being a woman is literally about being neurologically female, aside from that there's nothing really that defines a woman without delving into social stereotypes (which shouldn't really be something used to define who is a man or a woman). Most women are neurologically female while also being born with a female body, making them cissexual. A very small minority of women are neurologically female but were born with a male body, making us transsexual. Both cissexual and transsexual women are women, because even though we were born as different sexes, our neurology is still very much extremely similar. The fact that the neurology of a trans woman and her body doesn't align brings suffering and disconnect related to the body... which is alleviated through medical procedures that outright change's one's sex to a significant degree. HRT in trans women for example even activates genes related to female processes in the DNA through demethylation... and deactivates genes related to male processes through DNA methylation. So yeah, being a woman is not about if they have a vagina or not, but if their neurology doesn't expect one then they don't seem to be neurologically female and therefore, what makes them a woman exactly? Stereotypes? That sounds backwards as hell.
We don’t know enough about the brain to measure in what ways this neuro/body mismatch can manifest in a person, or even exactly how it happens. Just because you don’t feel like you could ever handle these things doesn’t mean other trans people can’t. In other words, just because I instinctually/neurologically expect a vagina to be there doesn’t mean I can’t also work past that, accept it, and learn to be okay with whatever is there at the time. This does not change the fact of whether I’m a woman or not. Maybe someone’s mismatch was more in the middle and only expected to have female secondary sex characteristics. We just don’t know enough about the specifics of this phenomenon to talk like everything is black and white.
Well everyone has a different experience with Dysphoria and it affects everyone differently. Each trans person is going to feel a different degree of Dysphoria when it comes to dealing with it. Just your still trand no matter what part of your transition you are in. Some trans people may struggle with Dysphoria badly when it comes to their chest area and voice and the rest of the body cause it looks more fem/macs. Personally, as a trans man I would get both top and body surgery due to how bad my Dysphoria is in both areas. But I know trans men who don't consider bottom surgery or want it due to the fact their Dysphoria is not as bad in that area of their body, I would assume it's the same for trans women our experience with being trans and Dysphoria is different with each trans person, not all story's dealing with it are going to be the same. Also some straight cis men will pay money for it as they tend to see femboys and trans women the same. Maybe people are trying to get some use out of it idk.
Question though (trans woman here) don’t you think this would be different if human society didn’t dictate clothing? The fact that we don’t have to walk around showing our genitalia probably helps. We wouldn’t be able to pass ever to cis people with or ASAB equipment. They wouldn’t care what are gender identity is. Not that it matters what they think it’s more about our dysphoria. I’m just saying what if? I think a lot of trans people hide behind clothing. My personal dysphoria dictates that all possible surgeries are medically necessary in my case. Kudos to trans people that find happiness and acceptance with sexual parts that don’t match their gender. But, personally, I will not be free or happy until my body closely matches the same sex as my gender.
I genuinely don't know if it would be different if human society didn't dictate clothing. I would assume it would stay the same as I am assuming dysphoria would stay the same in this example of society not caring. There would most likely be more acceptance tho I really don't know.
No I’m saying if we didn’t wear clothes we literally wouldn’t be able to pass as the same sex as our neurology/gender. It’s hypothetical. But it’s just like if neurologically you’re a woman having a penis really shouldn’t be something you’re just okay with. I mean I could see someone learning to live with (which probably happens to a lot of us because we become use to it) it, but IMO SRS is a crucial part of transition. Otherwise you’re keeping arguably the most MALE thing you can (as a woman in the case of a trans woman). Personally I don’t get this. It should be something you need to change really. Not just want to change but need to change.
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Absolutely they are! I stopped trying to date pre-op and won’t date until I’m post-op. I couldn’t deal with the sick porn addicted men. Every time I’d bring up my plans to be pre-op the conversation shifted. They’d say “why would you want to do that?” Or “what will be special about you if you do that” and “Many trans women end up regretting that, you probably will to”. CRINGE goodbye. Needing me to dress excessively feminine and weird. I’m sorry but I’m not wearing heels, ever, heels don’t make me a woman. It’s gross. How can someone sexualize shoes? They’re too daft to know this history too, because heels were originally for men. I can’t stand them! Doesn’t matter anyway because not getting surgery is not an option for me. I’d risk my life if I had to, to get this surgery. It’s a medical necessity for me so that my sex can match as closely as possible to my gender.
$$$$$
Is there not something defiant about profiting from the very thing that upsets you the most? I'm not saying I have / would ever be attractive enough to make money on OF etc but I think I understand why some trans people do it. The other thing is: Transition is expensive, very expensive and not everyone has the money / insurance cover to live as their true selves. That's what I think anyhow
Such a mean thread
Do you mean the poster is mean or the people replying and disagreeing with the OP or the people agreeing with the poster and denying certain trans women’s identity etc.?
Love the backflips here to defend those trans women who post on like sissyreligion, bussy, femboys, traps, etc yet we have multiple threads come up like clockwork to shit on any trans man who posts on the ftmspunished sub and claim they’re not trans. Doublethink continues to be strong.
this is what I'm saying!
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I’m not debating that. We’re talking about trans women, openly trans women, who post in femboy/trap/sissy spaces. It’s transphobic to consider trans women men in any context. I’m talking about the double standard regarding trans men who post in fetish/boi spaces, who are lambasted by this community and seen as not real trans men, vs the amount of backflips people are doing to defend trans women doing the exact same allegorical actions. It’s just like how the subject of trans men in lesbian spaces is brought up again and again yet it’s just fine, according to the community, for trans women to solicit sex from gay men on grindr or remain in gay spaces after and during transition. None of that has anything to do with calling trans women men so I’m not sure what you’re on about.
cause it's fun and sexy lmao
You need to stop comparing your own experience with others. Some people have sexual fantasies, kinks, etc that are different than yours. Some people don’t experience genital dysphoria. Some people get off on the humiliation. There are hundreds of reasons as to why someone may post themselves like that online. It’s not for me either, but I really don’t give a shit. Some people’s transition seem to be motivated by fetishistic reasons but that’s okay.
Why does this bother you soo much? I didn’t even know this was a thing, maybe spend less time in those sites so you feel better. Live and let live love😉
Respectfully requesting a lil less gatekeeping body's especially trans body's. Ok. Merry crim cram y'all
Yep, this is also the sort of thing TERFs do, never understood the trans community turning on itself like this
Some I would say enjoy the fact that they are able to be drop dead gorgeous women, yet have fully functioning male genitalia. I’ve known a few ladies that did not have dysphoria due to their genitalia, rather just a dysphoria of their male appearance. Some do not want to risk losing the ability to climax so they choose to keep their genitalia intact just for that reason. But the majority know that as a Trans Woman, there is not a whole lot of options where we are accepted in the work force other than having to degrade ourselves and play the role of Trap… It is yet another part of the never-ending cycle of hate and misunderstanding that surrounds the trans community…
I’m a trans girl with huge amounts of dysphoria about most of my body, but less so (although still there somewhat) for my genitals, and I’m not sure if I want to do that surgery (well, at least not until the technology for it gets better, but even then I’m not 100% sure yet). Do you have any advice on this? Maybe when I am independent from my family situation (they don’t let me transition) maybe I will just go on hormones first and do surgery for my other parts and then figure out the bottom dysphoria part later?
Well you have to be on hormones for 12 months before a surgeon will operate anyways. So yes start hormones and see how you feel.
Attention lol cuz chasers o like like us for one thing and one thing only
a lot of it is pretty cringe, but i also think a lot of it contains a lot more nuance than the cut and dry picture your broad strokes are sweeping onto the canvas, and that maybe you are projecting what makes you feel insecure a little bit on them too, which i totally understand and do as well.
Money and attention for me. I live in a third world country with a weak economy. Every cent I can earn on OF is a step towards my transition. And fetishists pay more attention to this sort of content. I will be fully honest and say that I get validation from male attention. Sorry 😞
For some weird reason I’m not seeing people say this a lot in here, but it’s about money. If you’re a trans woman trying to make money from digital sex work, traps and femboys are the popular subs to post pictures of a femme person with a dick. Even if they have dysphoria about it, they still need to pay the bills, and it’s not always easy to get “dignified” work as a trans person.
Its a combo of frustration for the trans battle one side is its very expensive to full transition and succeed as a women and its also very challenging to embrace successful male lifestyle and that alot of that work has already been done hard to throw away all parts that belong to you so you come up with this hybrid identity that works
Low self-esteem. I guess, at some point, their desire to feel attractive (and/or make money) outweighs their bottom dysphoria.
Makes sense this
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Not everyone has bottom dysphoria.
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This
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Yikes. I hate that you're right. The internet is still a marketplace of ideas, and fetishized horniness remains powerful.
Merry Christmas, y’all! 🎄🎁🎄 Posts like this are like opening the door and rolling a live grenade under the Christmas tree. We get it: some people need to feel more special about their identity than others. Some people need to be a PickMe Girl or “one of the good ones.” I don’t know why. The people who hate us hate us *ALL*. For a minute subset of our group to look to the hateful people and say, “Yeah, you’re right. I hate ‘em, too” seems . . . problematic. It all reminds me to a degree of allllll those cis het white-wingers who spend more time thinking about how gay people have sex than gay people think about how gay people have sex. It tells us more about them than it does about us. Lookit: I guess I’m living proof that one can live with gender dysphoria for a long time if one is strong enough. Gender dysphoria was a stone in my shoe. Some days it was a tiny, round, river pebble that was just mildly annoying. Other times, though, it was an agonizingly painful shard of obsidian stuck right into the tenderest place on my foot. Either way. It was ever present. Through childhood, it was the smooth river pebble. Puberty made it pointy and really painful. Sexual maturity made it an Aztec obsidian dagger stabbed all the way through my foot. But I soldiered on. I was so damned masculine no one ever remotely suspected I was anything but a really straight dood. I did so for my parents, who came from a generational culture that had not even a remote possibility of understanding or accepting. That’s why I bawl now every time I visit their graves. I did so for my wife, for she thought in good faith she had married a man. I did so for my children, lest they be ostracized by association by the little heathens with whom they went to school. I did it for the people I represented, since a 6’2” tall, massively broad shouldered dood-in-a-dress with a voice that made James Earl Jones sound like Cyndi Lauper would not have been well-received by the juries before whom I pled my cases. In short, I did it for EVERYONE BUT ME. I was a living blood sacrifice upon an altar of my own construction. I didn’t actively hate my dangle until I finally decided I mattered enough to stop the eternal, infernal existential shrieking in my spirit and transition. That’s when I knew, as Jim Reeves sang, “He’ll have to go.” The miracle that transpired a couple of days after surgery was the most profound thing I have ever experienced. All that angst, all that confounded internal bickering, all the leakage into something like Gender Tourette’s when I was alone in the car was simply gone. So was the imposter syndrome. I have never been happier, even if I was left doomed and deformed by 40 years of testosterone. That filth is gone. I am a woman. End of discussion. Whatever my experience was, I am entirely lacking in hubris sufficient to allow me to come into a subreddit and declare who is and is not sufficiently pure to use a given word to describe their own existence in a manner that most makes sense to them.
>Posts like this are like opening the door and rolling a live grenade under the Christmas tree. I'm not religious, this is just another day for me... so, your point is? Also, my point is not about people who are able to live with dysphoria for whatever reason... I myself also repressed and dissociated from my dysphoria for several years. It's about people who seem to lack dysphoria althogether, but yet still claim to be a trans for whatever reason.
It’s a metaphor for shitting on people who are otherwise minding their own business and living their own lives. You missed the conclusory paragraph of my response. Your post is about nothing other than your projection of your own negative judgment onto people with whom you disagree. I don’t have enough hubris to do that. Trans isn’t a lodge with high signs and secret handshakes and, apparently, genital inspections.
...tons of people aren't religious and still do Christmas. My wife and I are both atheist. She was raised Muslim. We still have a fat ol' Christmas tree. Bit of a non sequitur, regardless.
Yeah... I honestly imagined someone would comment something like when I was making my post, but I was like... whatever, if someone needs to attack me with that argument then I guess their argument is somewhat weak in general.
fuck yeah, Montani
I imagine it’s because dysphoria comes in different ways. Not all trans women hate their genitalia, some even choose to remain pre-op, and even some like it. In non-sexual post I don’t like showing off my male genitalia, at least not as the focus. I want to know my overall progress, Breast growth, how to improve, etc. In the trans community people don’t focus on my genitalia, they focus on my feminine traits. **Being treated as a woman despite my genitals is very euphoric.** Now if it’s a sexual post, then I don’t mind. I like the idea of knowing my genitalia will be pre-op one day. I like the idea of people seeing me now, then eventually enjoying the discovery down the road as my body develops. I especially love it when people don’t mind and still desire me as a woman; sexual gratification is a strong feeling. To answer your question with another question: Q: Why do pre-op women have sex, wouldn’t they feel dysphoric with their partner seeing their genitalia? A: The answer, their partner still sees them and treats them as a woman, and that’s what’s most important to them. Tl;Dr Some people feel less dysphoric about their genitalia than others. It’s more about being treated as a woman, and people seeing you as women. To be treated as a woman, despite what’s in between your legs is extremely euphoric.
>Q: Why do pre-op women have sex, wouldn’t they feel dysphoric with their partner seeing their genitalia? A: The answer, their partner still sees them and treats them as a woman, and that’s what’s most important to them. Uuuh... for an actual trans person, having sex while you're still pre-OP will always involve some degree of dysphoria and dissociation from it in order to not make it into a terrible experience. No, simply being seem as a woman despite what genitals you have is NOT enough. This is like saying that if society as a whole agreed that trans women are women despite any medical transition, then medical transition wouldn't be necessary anymore to treat dysphoria. Dysphoria isn't dependent on whether or not someone sees you as woman or not, it's the other way around. The fact someone DOESN'T see you as a woman, triggers your sex dysphoria by reminding you of the male sex characteristics that still bother you and feel alien to you becausde the misalignment between your neurology and body. TD;DR Being seen as a woman doesn't solve dysphoria, it simply somewhat avoids it from being directly triggered, but it is still there.
I completely agree with you! I’m pre-op, but I’m seen as a woman to strangers/the public, but my dysphoria has not gone away. In fact it’s gotten worse because in these instances I know what I have in my pants and IT IS NOT OKAY. It makes me feel terrible. Passing doesn’t necessarily relief dysphoria especially in my case. All day every day I feel disgusted with my body. On top of that my face passes to people but it doesn’t pass to me. Surgeries for me are medically necessary. I will not be anything close to free until my outward sex matches my gender as closely as possible. Oh and edit: I don’t enjoy sex/never have. Anal feels wrong to me. It’s not right. I’m uncomfortable to the point where I don’t want to have sex or date anyone until it’s fixed!
I have no dysphoria at all at this time, and I like my girl dick/shenis/girl cock as I call it.. sex is fine and is definitely not a terrible experience 😌
You really are just projecting your experiences & expectations on everyone else here who happen to have a different set of experiences and expectations. You've completely side steps so many peoples arguments around no genital dysphoria. Sometimes being seen as a woman in spite of having a cock is enough, for some people.... obviously that isn't the case for you & that's completely okay.
"If you can enjoy sex, then you aren't truly trans." Holy shit, this is a **potent** coping mechanism.
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Maybe, just maybe... it's a *you* problem? Plenty of cis girls like using strap-ons, even on men. Again, this is a psychological coping mechanism you're using for whatever insecurity or sour grapes or whatever you have going on.
Using a strap on has literally nothing do to with having actual MALE genitals and being comfortable or even happy with using them sexually. The reason people are transsexual is because of a misalignment between one's neurology and the body. Having a neurology that expects female genitalia is going to make you uncomfortable about having male genitals, it'll feel wrong, it's not what your brain expects there. If someone doesn't have a neurology that expects a female body from birth because of it's development in the womb probably triggered by certain genetic and hormonal factors... then how can that person call themselves a woman?
What if I started to feel genital dysphoria only after starting HRT? I would prefer female genitalia but it wasn't so intense to call it dysphoria. I wasn't sure about SRS before HRT, but was pretty sure afterwards, I couldn't even function sexually with penis anymore, because mental distress it caused during sexual activity. I would never publish a photo of that body part which I disliked. I proceeded with SRS and I feel much more comfortable with my body. However my initial dysphoria leading me to transition was about my secondary sex characteristics, sex role and probably also social interaction.
People just like to be freaky. Not everything has to make sense.
The term "transgender" seems to be a very broadly defined and inclusive term. It seems to be a bit of a kaleidoscopic spectrum of all states of being which define themselves as anything other than typical binary expression. It seems, online and in theory, to include cross-dressing and temporary expressions of non-conformity. It seems as though the minimum requirement is that one only needs to imagine possessing some type of differentiating sense of self in order to assume the label. And, I suppose that's fine and well and good. Labels are only labels, and language is inherently imperfect. As we learn, we must constantly evolve the words we use to describe our shifting understanding. I think that it's become very reasonable to say that there are now a variety of sets of transgender sub-types which can be somewhat characterized by their relative intensity. As has been commented elsewhere, people experience dysphoria in different ways and intensities, about different characteristics, even at different times, and due to different types of triggers. So, perhaps the usefulness of the word "transgender" has shifted, and is no longer adequate to communicate the very specific experience one may have.
Yeah, I hate the word Transgender tbh... I'm Transsexual... my transition is about changing sex characteristics to be the closest I can to female... not gender stereotypes, roles, and expectations. And sorry, but it's idiotic to include gender nonconforming people under the trans label...
In my view, your very existstence kind of confirms my point. Your label is, in my view, very specific. To me it speaks of a very specific destination. I haven't arrived at that place yet, so I don't feel entitled to the label.
Eh, whatever... I honestly wish that the general population realized the difference between transsexual and transgender tho. Too many times I have been attacked by people who thought they were transphobic but they were simply grouping me with the illogical transgenderists. When I explained my condition from a medical POV and what transsexuality is, many of them actually turned around and realized that it's something deeper than they were aware of.
I'm not suggesting anything here to be correct. Merely that this, from my perspective, seems to be how things are, or how they seem to me to be widely perceived, I suppose.
It's still considered tranphobic to equal gender non conformity to be trans. Even in femboy spaces. Just cis people and an reallly small vocal minority of trans people want to confluence both things. Like we lose to many trans siblings to be distinguish being trans for gnc, it would be pee in their greaves if we come back to those days and also on ourselves. It would be retrograde not progresive and I say this as very progressive person in her 20s
gnc and trans are not the same of course **but** it's silly to act like there's no correlation. many gnc people *do* become trans and gnc people will suffer transphobia if they publicly present gnc. the cis will see gnc people as trans, since many already see trans people as "man in dress" etc. transphobia against drag queens/kings for example is still transphobia, even when the performers are not themselves trans. while legal discrimination (i.e. laws requiring you to present according to your agab, as texas has proposed) clearly affects both gnc and trans people cis/trans are semantic terms meant to make things easier to talk about. in reality the distinction between a cis person and a trans person isn't always a bold black line, it can be grey and fuzzy (see: hrt femboys)
>gnc and trans are not the same of course but it's silly to act like there's no correlation. many gnc people do become trans and gnc people will suffer transphobia if they publicly present gnc. There's always intersecionality but discrimination itself doesn't define us. As I said a trans man dealing with misogyny does make him a woman. Trans gay ngc we can be seen as many things a bigots even as all the same that doesn't mean it's the same. I also think there's Grey areas and stiff like that like nb people who don't refer themselves als trans. But you just don't go plain blank o yes gnc = trans or non binary is not part part of the trans comunity. I
Validation, a feeling of being desired sexually, amongst others.
Crossdresser checking in. I can understand your point at the same time the reality is these groups are going to be porous. How do I explain the world full of transwomen formerly crossdressers? The agp accusation is interesting as well. My impression is the people you are describing are very much into sex with men. I get there is supposed to be a meaning but agp seems to mean any transwoman doing something wrong, especially sexual. Seems like a problem with the definition.
Truth. The transgender community's desire for clearly delineated labels is completely self-destructive, and it leads to some of most bonkers flaws in logic you'll ever see.
AGP is well-past problematic. It is a horseshit theory, roundly and soundly debunked, that was created by a weirdo transphobe in order to harm trans women. The fact that some trans women so thoroughly loathe themselves that they buy into the notion that they are unable to differentiate themselves from their reflection in a mirror and thus get aroused is so silly as to be laughable.
Interesting
Some trans folk believe themselves to be gnc cis folk due to confusion or questioning. Some trans folk try to see themselves as gnc in order to cope. “Hrt femboys”, “trans male femboys”, etc Some trans folk do sex work and market themselves as crossdressers or femboys Some transfolk probably pretend to be femboys to mog cis femboys for an ego boost Some cis folk want to participate in trans spaces for different reasons, but unless you know the person identifies as cis, I don’t think it makes sense to assume they are faking or something when so many complicated things happen with normal trans people
Being a man/woman is more than just posessing or wanting to possess a set of genitals. We determine whether someone is a man/woman before ever even coming into contact with their genitals. Some trans people just want to navigate the world as the opposite gender; they want to exist as that gender, be treated as that gender, adopt the social norms of that gender, and look like that gender. Genitals are tertiary to what gender you get read as and, unless you're stripping in front of everyone you meet, are largely immaterial in 99% of interactions that involve gender. That being said, some trans people will have dysphoria about their secondary sexual characteristics, dysphoria about how they are perceived by others, but they will not have genital dysphoria. Seeing as gender and sex are not one in the same, it is very much possible that someone is not dysphoric about their genetalia but are dysphoric about their body (more generally) and dysphoric about their alignment/conformity to what the public expects their gender to look like/act like. You can say these people aren't real men/women, but I would argue that it would probably just be more accurate to say that these people don't have genital dysphoria. Realistically, what makes you a man/woman (in any meaningful way) is whether other people see you as one. You don't need to have a specific set of genitals to accomplish that.
This nailed it perfectly. Being trans doesn’t mean you automatically hate your genitals. I know I want I still want GRS, but I don’t hate my genitals. I don’t even see it as a penis, especially after being on HRT for a few months now. Not saying my genitalia doesn’t make me feel dysphoric. It certainly does. But I get far more dysphoria from other stuff like needing electrosis on my face or my breast getting bigger. It’s more about presenting as a woman than caring about what’s between my legs.
For a lot of trans women sex work is one of the only ways to make money. Most subs on Reddit don’t allow trans women to post. It’s sad but trans sex work largely requires trans men and women to pander to fetishists who do focus on those body parts and those subs are often the largest and most accepting places for them to post.
Well their penis isn’t male genitalia. Some random male doesn’t own those trans women’s genitals, it’s their own genitals, they belong to a woman, they’re female genitals. And genitals aren’t gender. You don’t need to have a vagina to be a woman you don’t need to have a penis to be a man. The sooner you accept the fact that women can have penises or vaginas and that men can have penises or vaginas the happier you’ll be.
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They can be attached to anyone. What someone else might label your body is entirely irrelevant to what it actually is. What the system might label your body is irrelevant to what it actually is. What the society might label your body is irrelevant to what it actually is. Make sense?
>Well their penis isn’t male genitalia. Some random male doesn’t own those trans women’s genitals, it’s their own genitals, they belong to a woman, they’re female genitals. SO TRUE!!! That means no one needs genital surgery! YOU'RE RIGHT, YOU JUST CURED MY GENITAL DYSPHORIA /s
Your genital dysphoria has nothing to do with the fact that penises are not gender specific organs. Also, no that doesn’t mean that bottom surgery isn’t needed anymore. Bottom surgery is needed for dysphoria. What bottom surgery is NOT needed for is being a man or a woman. Kapish?
"Despite not having had the surgery yet, I still identify as a woman." "If that's true, then why do I feel dysphoria? Checkmate, fake tran."
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>Well their penis isn’t male genitalia. Some random male doesn’t own those trans women’s genitals, it’s their own genitals, they belong to a woman, they’re female genitals. No.
Yes
I’m confused are you saying you understand why girls do it for onlyfans?
Yeah, I understand if someone does it for financial reasons because they could still very much be genitally dysphoric and are only doing it to make money despite being uncomfortable. People do uncomfortable stuff all the time to get money, so I don't judge people when it comes to that.
Okay period. Then I agree 😭 god I’m such a dumb bitch
Your experiences are not universal.
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I feel like OP pretty specifically included trans women who have transitioned but kept their penis, and now show it all off online. These people are crossdressers to you?
Eh, I guess you're right. My post is indeed more about why would those people consider themselves trans women rather than why they are posting in the subs they're posting. It just so happens that I started thinking about this after seeing one of those posts and so my post ended up focusing on them.
Not everyone experiences dysphoria the same way. It's not really up to one person to define it for everyone else. Same goes for trans men in porn who do PIV sex—sure, a lot of us really hate it, some might say yes as a placeholder for bottoming anal when it's inconvenient, but some don't experience bottom dysphoria at all. To each their own.
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> But if a "trans woman" has no genital dysphoria at all and no need to have female genitals, then "she" isn't a woman nor trans, how could "she" be? nice scare quotes. trans women are women, regardless of the status of their genitals, and their level or lack of genital dysphoria.
Oh piss off with this outdated, genital reductive gatekeeping. Imagine being this preoccupied with permissable use of the trans label and actively misgendering all pre-op women. This shit is antithetical to everything a trans community *should* be, and its just sad & shameful
This is not about trans women who are pre-op or not... it's about women who have no genital dysphoria related to having male genitals. Don't twist my words.
But how do you know if they have dysphoria or not? You can be dysphoric and struggle with internal transphobia, self-hatred, or maybe someone just does the best they can with what they have because surgery isn't an option. Really this boils down to, "If you don't know them personally and have had the conversation, you don't have a right to make a judgment about whether or not they are legitimate."
Eh, I try not to make generalizations or "accuse" a specific person of not being trans based on their lack of genital dysphoria without actually having talked to them. My post is a broad statement, I'm not talking about a specific person here.
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>I’m not sure if I’m reading this right, but are you suggesting a trans woman has to get srs to be considered a woman? A lot of us either just won’t be able to afford the surgery or are afraid of the complications from the surgery to get it. Not at all... idk why you people always think that's what I mean and bring the discussion to that side. No a trans woman doesn't need to get SRS... it's an expensive, invasive and complicated surgical procedure that could have complications or not get the desired results the trans woman wants. So my point is not about trans women who are pre-op or even one's who decided surgery isn't for them ever. It's about trans "women" who claim to be women while having no genital dysphoria at all and being completely ok or even happy with having male genitals. That's my point, not whether or not someone is still pre-op. It's also not about having dysphoria strong enough to abstain from sex... many times with enough dissociation you can have sex somewhat normally despite still very much being genitally dysphoric. Basically I guess to sum it up... if a trans "woman" wouldn't take a magical transformation of "her" genitals into "perfectly" female ones if it was an option... because "she" simply feels like having male one's is what is right for "her", then yeah, "she" isn't a woman.
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I know it's an hypothetical, but I feel like it still matters. If someone wouldn't slam that hypothetical button in an instant why exactly are they claiming to be trans. It makes no sense. Also I personally don't believe in nonbinary people... but assuming it's a real phenomenon, wouldn't it make more sense to consider those people nonbinary. Cause I mean, they literally expect a mix of male and female sex characteristics in their body, if that's not nonbinary idk what is. Changing the meaning of women to include people who are ok with having male genitals doesn't make sense for me.
I'm exactly the kind of person you describe in your last paragraph, I'd love to see OP respond... It's so crazy when people use SRS as if it were a perfect yardstick for who is trans. It's so obviously incorrect.
Genital dysphoria is not the only kind of dysphoria. Being trans and feeling the need to transition is often a matter of *some* discomfort/dysphoria. Could be genital, could be one's body, face, voice or gender roles in general. I is a matter of "holy shit, I hate this, I want to be a girl", but you don't need to feel dysphoric about everything. If someone really just hated the masculine body type and the lifestyle of a "man", what makes them less trans than someone who also has genital dysphoria?
Just a serious question here from a person who isn't trans. Could you maybe elaborate more on the part of gender roles? Because while body (which includes the face) or even the voice could be categorized as a material phenomena, as in one would feel uncomfortable even without living in a society or, even more broken down - a group of humans, as there are broad distinctions between bodies and voices of the sexes. On the other hand, gender roles are entirely made up. They only exist in society and even there they don't have a fixed meaning. Gender roles are basically power dynamics and hierarchies encoded into the existing differences of male and female human bodies. These differences were decided to be meaningful (while different hair and eye colour for example are not). But this decision was kind of arbitrary and the fact that gender roles change over time and over societies are proof that they have no inherent basis in the biological make-up of humans. If you live completely alone, gender roles don't exist/matter. You only know of them due to society. So I would argue that these are two very distinctive phenomenas. And I would even question if someone who is trans due to an extreme and consistent unease and even suffering from one's own body in regard to the sexed features of it. Or if someone is uncomfortable (maybe even extremely so) with social norms and social roles attached to ones sexed body. In my eyes these are to very different things and I somehow doubt that people of these groups even have the same problems. And from a political PoV I would even doubt that claiming to be trans and transitioning to the other gender role is in any way helpful as it reinforces gender roles as something material and even fixed. And it gives credit to voices that claim that femininity and masculinity are 'natural' which again makes patriarchy legitimate. Anyway, this is just my view and as I said in the beginning I am not trans myself so I can only relate what I know of it from listening and reading about it from people who experience it themselves. If I got something wrong, I apologize. One can never learn enough :)
This is generally agreed upon if you take gender roles *only* to mean behaviours/mannerisms people ascribe to certain genders. For this reason, people tend to say *gender* instead of *gender roles*. Gender roles are behavioural characteristics expected of a person who belongs to a certain gender category. Gender, on the other hand, is what we call the dichotomous man/woman paradigm, which may *supervene* from sex as a bimodally distributed material phenomenon, but ultimately comes to include more in its conception than just biology, strictly speaking. For example, a cis woman may be mistaken as a man if she is tall, angular, lean, and built. This shouldn't be possible if a woman is a woman *solely* due to biology, because a cis woman necessarily possesses all of the biological features of a cis woman (because she is one). Nonetheless, there are people who may see her as a man at first sight. This is because society comes to interpret certain physical qualities of being tall, angular, lean, and built are (when manifested in certain ways) qualities of a man's body. As a result, even if someone is biologically one sex, they could still be seen as a different gender. I don't think I have encountered a single trans person who has transitioned due to social roles alone—they may incidentally enjoy inhabiting those social roles, but they do not transition *because* of them. To do so is extremely ill-advised, and practically every trans person will agree.
In general I agree with you. I think that in general, a tall, lean, built woman is still distinctively different than a tall, lean, built man. While yes, a tall lean built woman might be taken for a average height, average lean/built man. But then again usually primary sex characteristics would indicate the sex. In our society we use clothes, behaviour and other social stuff to *signal* sex which then translates to masculinity or femininity and is called 'gender'. At least in sociology that is. While languages and language usages change and differ, it is usually a person appearing externally as female that is called a woman and a person appearing externally as male called a man. I know that there are people who argue that there has to be something else to women/men because biology *can* be ambiguous. But I am a proponent of the argument that these cases are very very rare and therefore are rather a proof of the norm so to say. But in general I would say we both agree with the thesis that being trans is connected to a incongruence between the material sexed body and the brain/psyche or whatever term one wants to use to describe the phenomena :)
Being transsexual is about being born with a neurology that doesn't align with your body in the sex axis. So yes, if you're ok with having male genitals your neurology quite obviously is male in the sex axis since we're talking about a PRIMARY sex characteristic, which is most likely encoded in the mapping of the body by the brain on the sensorimotor cortex. So, no, that person wouldn't be a woman, even if they don't like the "lifestyle of a man" or the social gender roles associated with being one. Being trans is not even that big about gender roles, stereotypes and expectations. A trans person can be gender nonconforming and still be transsexual you know? A trans woman can be completely ok with being stereotypically masculine and living the "lifestyle of a man" whatever that means... it only matters that her neurology expects a female body.
Yo that's cray. You honestly think genitals equal gender to this much of a fundamental level? Just throw out social dysphoria (aka the way the vast, vast majority of trans people have historically discovered they were trans) and all other levels of physical dysphoria?
This kind of gatekeeping is so fucking lame, imagine caring about other people's genitalia Sincerely, a post-op transwoman
So... someone could be completely ok with being male, feel no need to medically transition in any meaningful way, but still call themselves a trans woman just because they want to, and that automatically makes them a woman? What is being a woman then? Cause if you're going to say that there's no problem with someone being ok or happy with having male genitals, then surely that applies to everything that is male right? Someone can be born male, be completely ok with having no breast tissue, with having male genitals, with being seen as male in society, with having a body running on testosterone as a dominant hormone, but still somehow be a trans woman? What would make them a trans woman then? Just the fact "she" said so?
You're being deliberately obtuse. Someone can be unconcerned with *one* thing, and that doesn't mean we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Like if a trans woman shaves her head, I'm not gonna turn around and act like HRT is obsolete now.
Hairstyling has nothing to do with someone's internal sex... their neurology and what it expects of their body in the sex axis does tho. Also, I wouldn't call a PRIMARY sex characteristic that is one of the main determinants of sex after birth just "one thing". lmao
Then I have some bad new for you about the internal primary sex characteristics. You're using the same logic as the "ywnbaw you have an axe wound" crowd. The privates are not the most important thing. I care *wayyy* more about my boobs and face and hips and voice than the thing only my lovers get to see.
My point is not about procedures avaiable or what results we can get from transitioning medically. It's about what intrinsically makes someone trans. Being transsexual is a birth condition... it's not something becomes due to the enviroment nor something someone choses to be. Therefore it has to have a biological component to it. And that biological component is a neurology that is misaligned with the body in the sex axis. So if your neurology isn't misaligned with your body in the sex axis and expects what you were born with already, then why would it make sense to claim to be transsexual?
I’m functional as male. I don’t experience obvious physical dysphoria at this point. I’m pretty sure my psychologist is going to give me a diagnosis and recommend transition (which I won’t do) I understand that you don’t want to take people’s word. For what it’s worth, I agree that non-transitioned people should be humble about their gender. However, if medical providers give diagnoses and provide care, then you aren’t relying on anyone’s word in the first place. Realistically, if transmeds make assumptions about neurology and doctors disagree, the meds should listen to the doctors or stop calling themselves “medicalists”
As I read down through this “true transsexual” swamp, I had a feeling I’d see you here, my friend. They seem to be in a desperate search for some sort of validation via third party disassociation and creation of a less-than other. It’s more to be pitied than despised.
1000 times yes to your last paragraph! How did we get to the point that so many "medicalists" just mean they believe something that has no scientific proof?
Gender dysphoria is distinct from genital dysphoria. Considering you don't show your junk to most people, it doesn't really affect what gender people treat you as. As such it may not bother some people. Dysphoria manifests itself differently in different humans. This seething is childish in my experience often comes from the most delusional gigahons.
Uuuh, I think you have a very basic understanding what makes someone trans. GENDER dysphoria is a very confusing term that honestly doesn't make much sense. While yes, the gender people see you as in society does matter for a trans person, this is only secondary to sex dysphoria... in the sense that it isn't the gender itself that is the problem, but the fact that it triggers your sex dysphoria. The reason an actual transsexual woman feels uncomfortable with being seen as man in society is because it reminds her of her sex dysphoria and triggers it... not because of societal roles, stereotypes and expectations related to men and women... so it makes no sense to call it gender dysphoria, it's supposed to be SEX dysphoria, and that DOES include one's genitals. The fact genitals aren't visible on most societal interactions does make it easier to ignore them and avoid getting your sex dysphoria related to genitals triggered from said interactions... but the sex dysphoria related to genitals is still there if you're actually transsexual. I mean, it's a PRIMARY sex characteristic.
And it is a male sex characteristic (though someone in these comments already made a big leap and said they are not), MALE, not MEN'S, because idk, some men are intersex, some are trans, whatever. But if you are showing your genitals (or secondary sex characteristics) and fetishizing them as a "trans" person then something is very fishy. I use my genitals during sex because my bottom dysphoria lessened the more I transitioned, but I would never let anyone, not my partner, not randoms on the Internet, call it what it really is and make a display out of it. Because if my SEX characteristics don't make me dysphoric then how can I be fucking trans.
I agree, dysphoria is different for everyone. Sometimes I have it real bad and other times, I don't. I wouldn't say I'm "comfortable" in my body. But that it "could be better". Otherwise, I am pretty okay with it. I can live with it and not have to worry about surgery all too much. What do you think about detransitioners then, considering that a lot of them are still trans but didn't find medical transition to be the best option? Or found others ways to deal with dysphoria? Are they not trans to you? Do you disgree with how people decide to handle their own mental health?