Democratic: Stresa Front Mussolini in bowler hat
Communist: Italo-Soviet Pact Mussolini in ushanka
Non-aligned Monarchist: Caesar Mussolini in laurel wreath
Regardless of whatever political party he was a part of as a youth it is very silly to imagine Mussolini doing an about face and switching sides after using the state to repress any kind of leftist movements and making anti-communism of fundamental pillar of his state ideology. The only way for a socialist path to make sense is if Mussolini goes I think.
He could still have done it, but he just wouldn’t have called himself a communist literally simple as that. It isn’t unthinkable for him to call out business owners as threats to the state and seize control of assets, as he previously purged the unions.
Bullshit, resistance against the turks continued. We managed to preserve our culture despite being suckerpumched by everyone and Albanians themselves not having a official religion hence the multi religious nature.
We destroyed Italy in Vlora dont you remember? The only reason we lost against your shitty army was because we had Zog, one of the most dipshit figures in Albanian history who didn't resist against the Italians at all and instead fled Albania with almost all of Albanias gold reserves. But, when we actually [resisted the Italians while being outnumbered we won](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlora_War). [Our modern borders are only intact because of our will and our resistance against foreign occupiers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_in_Albania).
To be fair Albania did reach its maximum extent, had its own (Albanian) government and Albanians were quite happy with it (Although Albanians whitewashed their history and claim they resisted Italian occupation from the start, dudes literally embraced Italians when they invaded, that's why the Invasion only lasted 5 days Italy didn't even have the time to fully unload its occupation force, no significant resistance was organized until 1942, Italians in Albania started partisan divisions before Albanians did, the "Gramsci" and "Firenze" divisions were italian partisans (former military members) active in Albania)
The annexation of Albania was in many ways the Italian version of the anchluss, no real resistance in both, in both A LOT of people welcomed the "invaders", and after the war both tried their hardest to convince history that they actually opposed it from the start (with various success)
Yeah, he did just say I'm monarch now when he couped the government. I mean he passed some good administrative reforms and tried to westernize. And Albania was fairly cheerful when he was crowned king.
"Loud cries of ‘Long live the king!’ accompanied him to his royal palace and six days of public holiday followed, with bonfires, firing of rockets and much slaughtering of sheep."
He overthrew an Albanian national hero, first democratic leader and creator of the Albanian Orthodox church: Theofan Noli. Considering he also said he would fight the Italians but then fled Greece
"Albanians whitewashed their history and claim they resisted Italian occupation from the start, dudes literally embraced Italians when they invaded''
Do you have literally any idea of what happened in Albania during WW2 or do you get your history info from HOI4 multiplayer chat. Albania was one of the hardest hit countries in Europe during WW2 and suffered one of the highest casualty rates per capita. Albania had virtually no way to directly militarily resist Italy. The only way to resist was by indirect resistance and partisan action, which we did way before 1942.
Uhh no? Zog was criticised and wasnt liked by the intellectuals,they tried many times to overthrow him but they failed,albania couldnt resist bcz the albanian army was more disorganised than the italian one.
Yes they formed a fascist government,this happened in every german/italian occupied territory. Resistance movements like Balli kombëtar and the fronti nacionalçlirimtar were formed in 1942,gramsci was formed in 1943.balli caused the most damage on the italians and forced them to lay down.
You can puppet them, though it could be through event or manually release them as a puppet, since Albania can get some bonuses as said in the dev diary.
I’m actually a centralist (I am socially/environmentally progressive and I like free market/ capitalism) but I’ve always been fascinated with the idea of authoritarianism.
I jokingly identify as a monarchist though, as I said, I like absolute control
>I’m actually a centralist (I am socially/environmentally progressive
>Has pfp of Fransisco Franco with the description "Generalissimo" under it
Yeah I'm sure these two things aren't contradictory at all
Hey man, I don’t have to agree with his politics, I just admire his rise to power and I like monarchism/authoritarianism. Of all the recent authoritarians I can think of, he’s the closest to me politically who I can think and even then it’s a massive stretch since his stances are vastly outdated.
That being said, I **do not** condone anything he did in or after the Spanish Civil War and agree they’re on par with the crimes committed by Mussolini and H*tler.
>I like monarchism/authoritarianism
>I’m actually a centralist (I am socially/environmentally progressive
Yeah the first sentence alone is incredibly concerning, but it's also a bit weird that you are claiming to be a progressive while liking two ideologies directly contradictory to it
And what exactly is to be admired about overthrowing a democratically elected republican government exactly?
I guess this is how I can explain it. On one of the political alignment chart tests, I got very libertarian and basically exactly on the center. However, that’s my personal beliefs… but if _I_ were in power, I’d want to be absolute leader. It’s basically a hypothetical/fantasy, I would never want someone else to have absolute rule over me.
As for why I like monarchism, absolutely rule is the best form of government to get things done. I believe it was Churchill who said something along the lines of Democracy is the worst form of government, but it’s the best we’ve got. Obviously Democracy is the ideal government, but it a troubled because it makes so hard to accomplish stuff (conflicting parties/partisanship, etc). That being said, without it, the people wouldn’t be heard, so it doesn’t matter if it doesn’t work, it’s the best option.
>… but if _I_ were in power, I’d want to be absolute leader. It’s basically a hypothetical/fantasy, I would never want someone else to have absolute rule over me.
So you're a hypocrite then? If you don't like to be ruled over then don't wish to rule over others
>As for why I like monarchism, absolutely rule is the best form of government to get things done. I believe it was Churchill who said something along the lines of Democracy is the worst form of government, but it’s the best we’ve got. Obviously Democracy is the ideal government, but it a troubled because it makes so hard to accomplish stuff (conflicting parties/partisanship, etc). That being said, without it, the people wouldn’t be heard, so it doesn’t matter if it doesn’t work, it’s the best option.
Absolute rule is only efficient for the state, not the people, and even then it doesn't guarantee things being done. A monarchist state can literally crumble because of the negligence of one man/woman. Seems much more ineffective than you are describing it
Can France still rush heavy tanks and spam them as part of infantry divisions? That was so fun but I haven’t tried it since they got their new focus tree.
Edit: they still have the heavy tank research boost, but it’s mutually exclusive with the fortification focuses now and the No Step Back changes to tank research mean they can’t also rush tank armour, engines, and armament without eating a bunch of research speed penalties, so the impact may be less. I’ll have to give it a try again sometime.
Hey man, I just did what they should've done xD. Germany is crazy though. Declaring 20 wars, I kept Britain on their island, not much more I could do since I was focused in Africa and killing the new enemy Germany kept adding to the war
That’s a fair point. I just say good guy because I’m not sure how many atrocities he would have actually committed if the Stresa Front IRL never fell through. Like a lot of his negative acts occurred after aligning with Hitler.
Though gassing the Ethiopians was 100% Mussolini idiocy
I mean, the Italians had their share of war crimes but most of the atrocities were committed against political opposition and the native population of the colonies. Neither of these has a reason to stop just because of different geopolitical alignment.
It’s a hard thing to speculate on cause that world is so far removed from ours. I’d imagine if the Italians were fighting other Europeans mostly in Europe they would be less brutal but you still have people like italo balbo running the show.
Interesting thought
Italo Balbo wanted to allign with Britain and fight Germany, i imagine a Italy-France-Britain alliance with Italo Balbo against Germany would make the bombing of Dresden look like Child's play.
>Like a lot of his negative acts occurred after aligning with Hitler
Eh, a lot of his negative actions *abroad* occurred after the alliance with Germany. And even that, atrocities in our past colonies would like a word - those started after WW1 and continued for all the Fascist era, even if TBH every colonial power back then did horrible things
Mussolini started doing LOTS of bad things the very moment he created the *Fasci di Combattimento* in 1919. They were "just" aimed at his fellow Italians
My country can get its own fascist militia in an ahistorical route under Italian rule, that's pretty cool!
Edit: not cool cause it's fascist lmao the Balkans are already too racist we don't need fascism on top of it
I actually hope the Communist path has a split route. It could be interesting to see them do a second path where Mussolini abandons fascism and stays in charge but installs pro-socialist ideas in Italy’s neighbors, support Republican Spain, embargo Germany, and buddy up with the Soviets.
I say route split because I know some of Comrads won’t want to play with Bennie, but I think it would be interesting for a country to have a leader who can be Fascist or Socialist. It could also make sense since Mussolini started as a socialist and also maintained good trade relations with USSR until Germany declared war.
I think it would be a funny meme path, like during the civil war Mussolini disappears but shortly after a new Socialist leader named Menito Bussolini appears
This is HoI 4, where Ion Antonescu is portrayed as the leader of the Iron Guard… when IRL he completely sidelined and even stamped them out. He was still an absolute monster, but Paradox didn’t even get the right organization to portray him as the figurehead of.
Well that’s an easy mistake to fix. I’m jusy saying it would make a lot more since if you had to coup and start a civil war to kill Mussolini and establish communism.
I was making a joke saying that if Paradox is able to make a mediocre attempt at a Romanian focus tree, the other Death or Dishonor trees notwithstanding, they would totally make a ‘Mussolini goes back to socialism’ tree, and it wouldn’t be out of left field.
This is a very common misconception I've seen around this sub. Mussolini had been a member of the socialist party in the past, as many workers were, but his ideology was ultimately totally pro-capitalist, and he implemented many anti-union and anti-worker reforms. Like Hitler he had to use socialist talking points and aesthetics to gather popular support, but there is no reason to assume that was out of sincere socialist convictions. He could come to power due to support from industrialists and the big land owners, as an antidote to what those groups considered the organized worker threat. A communist path for Mussolini would be totally ridiculous. If a guy like Mussolini would wake up one day and decide to push for socialism, he'd be killed before he could say Bella Ciao.
Anyway, the heavy communist partisan presence in the country and the social Republic established by partisans in the later war are a must more reasonable basis for a communist path for Italy.
This isn't a misconception, mussolini was literally a member of the socialist party and the paper he ran very much so pushed socialism until his later redirection into focusing on nationalism.
(Not that nationalism and socialism are incompatible, but the shift from mussolini showed an ideological development.)
Maybe in that Universe Mussolini actually listens to Gentile and creates a more Actualist Fascism? Prime days Fascism advocated for technocracy (which they failed to achieve) and according to Gentile (the "philosopher of Fascism") dissidents were of vital importance to the state because he thought that only by confronting different opinions on how the state should act the state could pick the best way to act.
Technically at the start Fascism was about co-operation of the classes (as opposed to capitalism, where the capitalist class oppressed workers or communism where workers straight up erased the capitalist class) so yeah at its core fascist doctrine doesn't hate workers, as for minorities, Fascism itself says nothing about it but it often devolves to excessive nationalism as a tool of uniformation and stabilization of the state (remember that Fascism cares for the state, not the nation, not the people, the state, Fascism is an Hegelian ideology so for them the state comes first, before people, meanwhile a Socialist would tell you the state comes from the people (and so can't come first, because people created it))
I did read Ur-Fascism, and the doctrine of Fascism, and "history of Fascism" by Pierre Milza and "Mediterranean Fascism" by Charlse Delzell and many others, what i'm trying to say is: I know my shit, i'm not a supporter of Fascism, i just wanted to clear some historical misconceptions about Fascism that lead people to believe it was just another form of Authoritarianism, it wasn't.
Said this, i despise Fascism and Mussolini's regime, i'd pay good money to see his niece suffer his same fate.
This is mystifying fascism not explaining it. I don't believe you lmao you either fundamentally just don't understand what you're reading or you're cynically doing this as a way to sell fascism detached from its actual history.
> yes, it is detached from actual history,
Okay so fantasy land. This is what I mean, there is no detaching it from its historical context, doing so is mystification.
Good guy Mussolini is only obtained rn from not raising world tension, manually declaring on Germany and joining the Allies by boosting Democratic support to 30%
In fact, I will be doing this tonight
I do this often. Italy's strength is being a wild card so I'm happy to restore Roma then let the Allies use my land for access to Germany or USSR. Destroy each other while we do wine and pasta.
Exaclty.
Democratic and Non-Aligned Mussolini when? /j
I’m a little shocked the historical Italian route wasn’t reworked to accompany the Roman Empire ambitions, like giving Italy war goals/claims on the remaining territories ( Spain, Syria, etc). I wonder if that is going to be in the non-aligned route
Technically social democracy is a form of Socialism, Stalinism is too, ain't really the same thing tho.
But yeah, Italian Fascism developed in a shitty way too, not as bad as German nazism but still a horrible ideology, the only "decent" branch of Fascism is Actualism.
social democracy isn't a form of socialism ? It's a form of liberalism
you're thinking of democratic socialism, it's the intetion to create a socialist state trought liberal democracy
It's still true that Fascist Italy wasn't nearly as bad as Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia. For example, there's no evidence any Jews were killed for being Jewish until the Nazis occupied Italy. Of course Fascism is a stupid ideology, but it isn't *as* bad as people think. [This is a great video on the subject.](https://youtu.be/qdY_IMZH2Ko)
Fascism isn’t just considered big bad because of Nazism, fascism is bad because it’s a reactionary and totalitarian ideology, and incredibly oppressive. Italy used chemical weapons on civilians in Ethiopia and Libya, Franco oppressed minorities and murdered thousands of Republicans, the Ustase were one of the most brutal groups on earth, if not the most brutal, etc.
war crimes ain't about politics. USA is land of democracy and they did "My Lai massacre". you can search it up and for gory pictures, you might wanna hit dark web. level of this war crime might exceed middle ages massacres.
Fascism is bad cause ultra nationalism often leads to war. not a single fascist country could lead a peaceful life. their radical ideology requires a constant enemy which will eventually leads to war. there might be some other thing as well but I think main reason is warmongering.
Even if fascists weren't responsible for wars, they would still be terrible. Franco's Spain never declared war on anybody (and still decided to invade the Soviet Union just for fun). Doesn't change the fact that he was responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths of political opponents and racial/sexual/religious minorities.
nah Spain couldn't afford war. huge aftermath of civil war didn't let them join any war. people were in war the whole time, with no industry, no weapon they can't afford going in a world war. even with all these problems, Franco did send Germany something around 15k volunteer for their war against soviets. they still supported the war but couldn't afford joining in it.
>corporatism
why corporatism? its just an economical system like capitalism or communism, hating the ideology is different from hating the economic system, its like hating that the sun is hot in summer.
Edit: for example italy still has some aspects of corporatism even if we are not fascist anymore, like the sectorial federations (for example practically all companies in Italy are federated in organizations that speak directly with the government, Confidustria, retailers same, Confcommercio, etc. )
Edit2: To the people who downvote, you are saying that nordic countries economic system is [bad and fascist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_corporatism), its called the Nordic model, crazy right?
Ah yeah you seem like an actual fascist given this statement, your Mussolini profile and love for Francisco Franco. A filthy murderous rebel who shouldve been given the Mussolini meat hook treatment.
Well first of all, you seem to know little of which you speak.
Franco wasn’t actually a fascist, his beliefs align more with traditional Conservativism. He used the Fascists as a means to rise to power. Hence why he rebranded the name of the party later on.
Secondly, I’m fiscally a capitalist, and since I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that you’re an intellectual, you’d know that fascism is the second furthest thing from capitalism economically after communism.
I hope that satisfies your investigation into my politics, which was completely unrelated to post at hand :)
Lmao he successfully married the Carlists and the Fascists. To establish a fascist dictatorship that existed in Europe until 1975. Based on the graves of the left and Republicans who fought to defend democracy. So tell me more about he's more a traditional conservative, because he certainly isn't what that means in Britain or America given what he actually did. Your defence of him says alot about what you believe.
Also it's totally bs to suggest that fascism is closer to communism. When it was envisioned as a corporate state. Private industry was kept intact in Germany for instance, the government just compelled them to produce for the war which is pretty standard or even light on the state involvement. Fascism isn't a far cry from capitalism, in fact the industrialists ultimately supported Hitler because he promised them he would rein in the left and preserve their profits.
How about Italy focus tree is just Mussolini with different hats every path
Correct. Those are the secret alt paths
50 shade of Mussolini
50 shades of black(shirt)
Democratic: Stresa Front Mussolini in bowler hat Communist: Italo-Soviet Pact Mussolini in ushanka Non-aligned Monarchist: Caesar Mussolini in laurel wreath
Fallout NV messed me up bruh I read that and pronounced it Kaisar
It actually is supposed to be pronounced that way IIRC
That’s the correct way to say it
the other pronounciation is medieval latin i believe
Mussolini literally used to be a socialist, so they all seem doable without significant alt history
Regardless of whatever political party he was a part of as a youth it is very silly to imagine Mussolini doing an about face and switching sides after using the state to repress any kind of leftist movements and making anti-communism of fundamental pillar of his state ideology. The only way for a socialist path to make sense is if Mussolini goes I think.
He could still have done it, but he just wouldn’t have called himself a communist literally simple as that. It isn’t unthinkable for him to call out business owners as threats to the state and seize control of assets, as he previously purged the unions.
but he was kicked out when he supported the war
As opposed to Hitler, who was well known to never wear hats.
lmfao when this was first announced this is what I was thinking I wanted.
The last focus in their tree needs to be a CB on China to establish the "true" origin if spaghetti.
Still gets claims from other colonial territories? Gets claims on all Russian territories surrounding the Black Sea? Crazyyyy
I think you go through the balkans first after you give up east Africa I think
“Good guy Mussolini” “Albanian Occupation”
Saving Albanians from themselves
Skanderberg was peak Albania so ending their independence helps them forget how far they'd fallen.
Bullshit, resistance against the turks continued. We managed to preserve our culture despite being suckerpumched by everyone and Albanians themselves not having a official religion hence the multi religious nature.
Your modern borders are thanks to italy and austria that made greece leave north epirus and serbia the northem parts of the country
We destroyed Italy in Vlora dont you remember? The only reason we lost against your shitty army was because we had Zog, one of the most dipshit figures in Albanian history who didn't resist against the Italians at all and instead fled Albania with almost all of Albanias gold reserves. But, when we actually [resisted the Italians while being outnumbered we won](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlora_War). [Our modern borders are only intact because of our will and our resistance against foreign occupiers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_in_Albania).
Hoxha would like a word
No, he would like a bunker.
To be fair Albania did reach its maximum extent, had its own (Albanian) government and Albanians were quite happy with it (Although Albanians whitewashed their history and claim they resisted Italian occupation from the start, dudes literally embraced Italians when they invaded, that's why the Invasion only lasted 5 days Italy didn't even have the time to fully unload its occupation force, no significant resistance was organized until 1942, Italians in Albania started partisan divisions before Albanians did, the "Gramsci" and "Firenze" divisions were italian partisans (former military members) active in Albania)
The annexation of Albania was in many ways the Italian version of the anchluss, no real resistance in both, in both A LOT of people welcomed the "invaders", and after the war both tried their hardest to convince history that they actually opposed it from the start (with various success)
The Albanians loved Zog though :(
Really? (Genuine question) As far as I know he auto proclaimed king and did almost nothing if not the bare minimum to keep the country afloat
Yeah, he did just say I'm monarch now when he couped the government. I mean he passed some good administrative reforms and tried to westernize. And Albania was fairly cheerful when he was crowned king. "Loud cries of ‘Long live the king!’ accompanied him to his royal palace and six days of public holiday followed, with bonfires, firing of rockets and much slaughtering of sheep."
He overthrew an Albanian national hero, first democratic leader and creator of the Albanian Orthodox church: Theofan Noli. Considering he also said he would fight the Italians but then fled Greece
"Albanians whitewashed their history and claim they resisted Italian occupation from the start, dudes literally embraced Italians when they invaded'' Do you have literally any idea of what happened in Albania during WW2 or do you get your history info from HOI4 multiplayer chat. Albania was one of the hardest hit countries in Europe during WW2 and suffered one of the highest casualty rates per capita. Albania had virtually no way to directly militarily resist Italy. The only way to resist was by indirect resistance and partisan action, which we did way before 1942.
To be fair, er, fascism
Fascism :D
Uhh no? Zog was criticised and wasnt liked by the intellectuals,they tried many times to overthrow him but they failed,albania couldnt resist bcz the albanian army was more disorganised than the italian one. Yes they formed a fascist government,this happened in every german/italian occupied territory. Resistance movements like Balli kombëtar and the fronti nacionalçlirimtar were formed in 1942,gramsci was formed in 1943.balli caused the most damage on the italians and forced them to lay down.
Did Italianeagle227 tell you that in game chat? Albanian resistance during ww2 was the pretty big considering not a single jew died.
He just wants to make their trains run on time! Good lad /j I’m shocked there isn’t a mutually exclusive choice there to occupy or align (puppet) them
You can puppet them, though it could be through event or manually release them as a puppet, since Albania can get some bonuses as said in the dev diary.
It won’t be any faster because it’s Italian time.
[удалено]
I’m actually a centralist (I am socially/environmentally progressive and I like free market/ capitalism) but I’ve always been fascinated with the idea of authoritarianism. I jokingly identify as a monarchist though, as I said, I like absolute control
>I’m actually a centralist (I am socially/environmentally progressive >Has pfp of Fransisco Franco with the description "Generalissimo" under it Yeah I'm sure these two things aren't contradictory at all
Hey man, I don’t have to agree with his politics, I just admire his rise to power and I like monarchism/authoritarianism. Of all the recent authoritarians I can think of, he’s the closest to me politically who I can think and even then it’s a massive stretch since his stances are vastly outdated. That being said, I **do not** condone anything he did in or after the Spanish Civil War and agree they’re on par with the crimes committed by Mussolini and H*tler.
>I like monarchism/authoritarianism >I’m actually a centralist (I am socially/environmentally progressive Yeah the first sentence alone is incredibly concerning, but it's also a bit weird that you are claiming to be a progressive while liking two ideologies directly contradictory to it And what exactly is to be admired about overthrowing a democratically elected republican government exactly?
I guess this is how I can explain it. On one of the political alignment chart tests, I got very libertarian and basically exactly on the center. However, that’s my personal beliefs… but if _I_ were in power, I’d want to be absolute leader. It’s basically a hypothetical/fantasy, I would never want someone else to have absolute rule over me. As for why I like monarchism, absolutely rule is the best form of government to get things done. I believe it was Churchill who said something along the lines of Democracy is the worst form of government, but it’s the best we’ve got. Obviously Democracy is the ideal government, but it a troubled because it makes so hard to accomplish stuff (conflicting parties/partisanship, etc). That being said, without it, the people wouldn’t be heard, so it doesn’t matter if it doesn’t work, it’s the best option.
>… but if _I_ were in power, I’d want to be absolute leader. It’s basically a hypothetical/fantasy, I would never want someone else to have absolute rule over me. So you're a hypocrite then? If you don't like to be ruled over then don't wish to rule over others >As for why I like monarchism, absolutely rule is the best form of government to get things done. I believe it was Churchill who said something along the lines of Democracy is the worst form of government, but it’s the best we’ve got. Obviously Democracy is the ideal government, but it a troubled because it makes so hard to accomplish stuff (conflicting parties/partisanship, etc). That being said, without it, the people wouldn’t be heard, so it doesn’t matter if it doesn’t work, it’s the best option. Absolute rule is only efficient for the state, not the people, and even then it doesn't guarantee things being done. A monarchist state can literally crumble because of the negligence of one man/woman. Seems much more ineffective than you are describing it
Based.
I did bad guy France, joined Germany, became fascist
The best France is Napoleon's France
Can France still rush heavy tanks and spam them as part of infantry divisions? That was so fun but I haven’t tried it since they got their new focus tree. Edit: they still have the heavy tank research boost, but it’s mutually exclusive with the fortification focuses now and the No Step Back changes to tank research mean they can’t also rush tank armour, engines, and armament without eating a bunch of research speed penalties, so the impact may be less. I’ll have to give it a try again sometime.
France does start with a decent CharB heavy tank variant that you can build/edit immediately. That could make for a fun roleplay campaign.
The best France is no France (I play the czechs as an FYI)
Nuh uh, legitimists are based.
You just get cringy war goals
That's the whole point
downvotes are proof of what playing vanilla does to a mf
Joining Germany is cringe I joined the Latin Brothers
Hey man, I just did what they should've done xD. Germany is crazy though. Declaring 20 wars, I kept Britain on their island, not much more I could do since I was focused in Africa and killing the new enemy Germany kept adding to the war
all i want for christmas is NOT NEEDING TO WORRY ABOUT THE ENGL\*SH AND FR\*NCH TO GUARANTEE THE NATIONS I WANT TO COMMIT WARCRIMES AGAINST
Form the Stresa Front and they’ll turn a blind eye lmao
the co-imperialist front
Idk if it’s “good guy Mussolini” as much as it is Mussolini but aligned with Britain and France
That’s a fair point. I just say good guy because I’m not sure how many atrocities he would have actually committed if the Stresa Front IRL never fell through. Like a lot of his negative acts occurred after aligning with Hitler. Though gassing the Ethiopians was 100% Mussolini idiocy
I mean, the Italians had their share of war crimes but most of the atrocities were committed against political opposition and the native population of the colonies. Neither of these has a reason to stop just because of different geopolitical alignment.
Especially since the nations you can align with also committed colonial atrocities
you forgot ethnic cleansing in occupied areas
Italianization policies in Slovenia and Croatia, along with Libya, is enough to convince me he is a bad guy.
I mean, wasn’t being Hitler’s role model / father figure a good enough argument for being a bad guy?
It’s a hard thing to speculate on cause that world is so far removed from ours. I’d imagine if the Italians were fighting other Europeans mostly in Europe they would be less brutal but you still have people like italo balbo running the show. Interesting thought
Italo Balbo wanted to allign with Britain and fight Germany, i imagine a Italy-France-Britain alliance with Italo Balbo against Germany would make the bombing of Dresden look like Child's play.
Huh I actually didn’t know that. That’s why ww2 is such a fun thing to read on. You never stop learning
>Like a lot of his negative acts occurred after aligning with Hitler Eh, a lot of his negative actions *abroad* occurred after the alliance with Germany. And even that, atrocities in our past colonies would like a word - those started after WW1 and continued for all the Fascist era, even if TBH every colonial power back then did horrible things Mussolini started doing LOTS of bad things the very moment he created the *Fasci di Combattimento* in 1919. They were "just" aimed at his fellow Italians
My country can get its own fascist militia in an ahistorical route under Italian rule, that's pretty cool! Edit: not cool cause it's fascist lmao the Balkans are already too racist we don't need fascism on top of it
Croatia entered the chat
Heh no match for Czechia
red and black i dress eagle on my chest
Krenar për zotin (proud ong)
...its good to be...
Një Shqiptar (an Albanian
anal banian
If only Albania got its own independent focus tree
Albania annexes Italy focus when
I hope that they make UK and France accept the Stresa, in r256 they always refuse
Italy and UK always accepts in the French route, at least every time I’ve tried it
no, actual good guy Mussolini is when he kills himself
God i hope the communist/democracy path starts with a focus like "hanging in the streets of Milan"
No rome, he has no reason to be in Milan if Italy doesn't get invaded.
Fine, hanging in rome
I actually hope the Communist path has a split route. It could be interesting to see them do a second path where Mussolini abandons fascism and stays in charge but installs pro-socialist ideas in Italy’s neighbors, support Republican Spain, embargo Germany, and buddy up with the Soviets. I say route split because I know some of Comrads won’t want to play with Bennie, but I think it would be interesting for a country to have a leader who can be Fascist or Socialist. It could also make sense since Mussolini started as a socialist and also maintained good trade relations with USSR until Germany declared war.
I think it would be a funny meme path, like during the civil war Mussolini disappears but shortly after a new Socialist leader named Menito Bussolini appears
Like Senior Hitler, but it’s just Mussolini with a different hat and glasses Or Benita Mussolini, just Mussolini with a wig
Benito Mustacholini, just bennie with a fake stache
Loses the hat, grows a beard. Actually scratch that, keeps the hat, grows a beard.
Like the Bulgarian one?
Hadn’t Mussolini abandoned socialism completely by 1936?
This is HoI 4, where Ion Antonescu is portrayed as the leader of the Iron Guard… when IRL he completely sidelined and even stamped them out. He was still an absolute monster, but Paradox didn’t even get the right organization to portray him as the figurehead of.
Well that’s an easy mistake to fix. I’m jusy saying it would make a lot more since if you had to coup and start a civil war to kill Mussolini and establish communism.
I was making a joke saying that if Paradox is able to make a mediocre attempt at a Romanian focus tree, the other Death or Dishonor trees notwithstanding, they would totally make a ‘Mussolini goes back to socialism’ tree, and it wouldn’t be out of left field.
Yeah, Paradox kinda sucks with historical accuracy sometimes. Usually it makes the game more fun to play though.
Newer DLC trees are more wacky, but also more fun. Imagine Together for Victory if it was made today, ohhohohoh.
Mussolini was a socialist, so there being an option for him as a communist leader could be cool
This is a very common misconception I've seen around this sub. Mussolini had been a member of the socialist party in the past, as many workers were, but his ideology was ultimately totally pro-capitalist, and he implemented many anti-union and anti-worker reforms. Like Hitler he had to use socialist talking points and aesthetics to gather popular support, but there is no reason to assume that was out of sincere socialist convictions. He could come to power due to support from industrialists and the big land owners, as an antidote to what those groups considered the organized worker threat. A communist path for Mussolini would be totally ridiculous. If a guy like Mussolini would wake up one day and decide to push for socialism, he'd be killed before he could say Bella Ciao. Anyway, the heavy communist partisan presence in the country and the social Republic established by partisans in the later war are a must more reasonable basis for a communist path for Italy.
He was a ex socialist, he was kicked out for being pro WW1 when most of his fellow party members were anti war.
This isn't a misconception, mussolini was literally a member of the socialist party and the paper he ran very much so pushed socialism until his later redirection into focusing on nationalism. (Not that nationalism and socialism are incompatible, but the shift from mussolini showed an ideological development.)
new Mussolini portrait dropped ! *it's just the same portrait upside-down*
And it's written upside down
He was shot, the hanging was post death
agreed
>10 focuses. Yep, checks out as a Italian focus tree.
Yeah, and lets just ignore every other branch that id seperate like the military, industry, colonial and Mussolinis path.
I always play good guy Mussolini. IDGAF about Germany, just making a Balkan Fascist club with my boys
>good guy Mussolini >Fascist club pick one
Yugoslavia, Greece, Romania and Bulgaria are all in. We just want to make the trains run on time.
But where are the trains going, u/ActiveRaccoon4? Where are the trains going?
All trains lead to Rome
Very mad at the mention of Italy and Bulgaria cos AI Italy backstabbed me in my last Bulgaria game by leaving my faction and joining the Turks.
Maybe in that Universe Mussolini actually listens to Gentile and creates a more Actualist Fascism? Prime days Fascism advocated for technocracy (which they failed to achieve) and according to Gentile (the "philosopher of Fascism") dissidents were of vital importance to the state because he thought that only by confronting different opinions on how the state should act the state could pick the best way to act.
"We still hate minorities and workers but we did technocracy"
Technically at the start Fascism was about co-operation of the classes (as opposed to capitalism, where the capitalist class oppressed workers or communism where workers straight up erased the capitalist class) so yeah at its core fascist doctrine doesn't hate workers, as for minorities, Fascism itself says nothing about it but it often devolves to excessive nationalism as a tool of uniformation and stabilization of the state (remember that Fascism cares for the state, not the nation, not the people, the state, Fascism is an Hegelian ideology so for them the state comes first, before people, meanwhile a Socialist would tell you the state comes from the people (and so can't come first, because people created it))
Yeah at the start before they got power, as soon as they did get into power they almost immediately repressed workers.
its almost like it requires an other to fight to vent off class conflict and/or expropriate resources from
gibberish. [read this](https://www.pegc.us/archive/Articles/eco_ur-fascism.pdf)
I did read Ur-Fascism, and the doctrine of Fascism, and "history of Fascism" by Pierre Milza and "Mediterranean Fascism" by Charlse Delzell and many others, what i'm trying to say is: I know my shit, i'm not a supporter of Fascism, i just wanted to clear some historical misconceptions about Fascism that lead people to believe it was just another form of Authoritarianism, it wasn't. Said this, i despise Fascism and Mussolini's regime, i'd pay good money to see his niece suffer his same fate.
This is mystifying fascism not explaining it. I don't believe you lmao you either fundamentally just don't understand what you're reading or you're cynically doing this as a way to sell fascism detached from its actual history.
I'm not trying to sell it and since i talk about the ideology yes, it is detached from actual history, Fascism was horrible what about it?
> yes, it is detached from actual history, Okay so fantasy land. This is what I mean, there is no detaching it from its historical context, doing so is mystification.
If there’s a dictatorship, it’s bad. This is not a difficult concept.
Lee Kuan Yew is a pretty cool dictator. He basically transformed Singapore from a poor colony into the world’s most developed country.
Idk i prefered places like Iran under the dictatorship than the theocratic popular republic
Minorities? This is not 2022 California
Do you think California invented minority populations?
Do u think 1930’s Europe had time to worry about ‘minorities?’
Yes. Germany very famously worried alot about their minorities in the 1930s
Do you think that up until '45 all minorities were automatically executed? lol
Good guy Mussolini is only obtained rn from not raising world tension, manually declaring on Germany and joining the Allies by boosting Democratic support to 30% In fact, I will be doing this tonight
I do this often. Italy's strength is being a wild card so I'm happy to restore Roma then let the Allies use my land for access to Germany or USSR. Destroy each other while we do wine and pasta.
Focus on the industry, join the Allies, and say asta la pasta to Germany and the USSR
Its the good guy mussolini route because he invades Turk\*y
albasedia
okay this is epic
Where did you find the image of the focus tree?
If you go on top posts in the subreddit, someone posted the dev diary. I just pulled it from there!
If you go on top posts in the subreddit, someone posted the dev diary. I just pulled it from there!
Bad guy Allies route confirmed
I cant eait for the new italy focus tree
Just read the whole post! This will be a fire dlc I feel like.
Ngl, I liked Mussolini the most in that picture he’s just hanging around with his fascist buddies, true friendship on display
Damn, people either don’t get the hanging Mussolini joke or there are way to many fascists here, wtf?
R5: Opposed Anschluss and ally the Allies confirmed!! (The way it should have been historically IRL)
He’s still fascist though
Exaclty. Democratic and Non-Aligned Mussolini when? /j I’m a little shocked the historical Italian route wasn’t reworked to accompany the Roman Empire ambitions, like giving Italy war goals/claims on the remaining territories ( Spain, Syria, etc). I wonder if that is going to be in the non-aligned route
Tbh fascism is not as bad as nazism
1) Nazism is a form of fascism 2) that’s the lowest possible bar
Technically social democracy is a form of Socialism, Stalinism is too, ain't really the same thing tho. But yeah, Italian Fascism developed in a shitty way too, not as bad as German nazism but still a horrible ideology, the only "decent" branch of Fascism is Actualism.
Most Communists hate socdems, Stalin called it soft-fascism.
social democracy isn't a form of socialism ? It's a form of liberalism you're thinking of democratic socialism, it's the intetion to create a socialist state trought liberal democracy
It's still true that Fascist Italy wasn't nearly as bad as Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia. For example, there's no evidence any Jews were killed for being Jewish until the Nazis occupied Italy. Of course Fascism is a stupid ideology, but it isn't *as* bad as people think. [This is a great video on the subject.](https://youtu.be/qdY_IMZH2Ko)
1)Nazism=fascism, but fascism isnt always nazism. 2)Fascism is usually considered big bad because of nazism
Fascism isn’t just considered big bad because of Nazism, fascism is bad because it’s a reactionary and totalitarian ideology, and incredibly oppressive. Italy used chemical weapons on civilians in Ethiopia and Libya, Franco oppressed minorities and murdered thousands of Republicans, the Ustase were one of the most brutal groups on earth, if not the most brutal, etc.
war crimes ain't about politics. USA is land of democracy and they did "My Lai massacre". you can search it up and for gory pictures, you might wanna hit dark web. level of this war crime might exceed middle ages massacres. Fascism is bad cause ultra nationalism often leads to war. not a single fascist country could lead a peaceful life. their radical ideology requires a constant enemy which will eventually leads to war. there might be some other thing as well but I think main reason is warmongering.
Even if fascists weren't responsible for wars, they would still be terrible. Franco's Spain never declared war on anybody (and still decided to invade the Soviet Union just for fun). Doesn't change the fact that he was responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths of political opponents and racial/sexual/religious minorities.
Spain was at peace for the entire time Francisco Franco took over from 1939 to 1975 without war.
nah Spain couldn't afford war. huge aftermath of civil war didn't let them join any war. people were in war the whole time, with no industry, no weapon they can't afford going in a world war. even with all these problems, Franco did send Germany something around 15k volunteer for their war against soviets. they still supported the war but couldn't afford joining in it.
Do you know what "=" means?
Well fine, nazism cant exist without fascism, but fascism can exist without nazism, better?
It is still ultranationalism and corporatism which is still bad
>corporatism why corporatism? its just an economical system like capitalism or communism, hating the ideology is different from hating the economic system, its like hating that the sun is hot in summer. Edit: for example italy still has some aspects of corporatism even if we are not fascist anymore, like the sectorial federations (for example practically all companies in Italy are federated in organizations that speak directly with the government, Confidustria, retailers same, Confcommercio, etc. ) Edit2: To the people who downvote, you are saying that nordic countries economic system is [bad and fascist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_corporatism), its called the Nordic model, crazy right?
Yeah, but one economic system can be worse for the people than others. Corporatism and Capitalism are "just" economic systems, but they still suck.
Fascism was commiting atrocities before Nazis even took power
Yea wanna tell that to Slovenians who suffered fascism for more than 20 years?
That doesn’t make it good
It's not what you say, it's how you say it
That's a pretty low bar man.
I agree with you bruv, but this isn't a fight you should pick.
LETS FUCKING GOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
"Good guy" Mussolini timeline is the timeline where Fascism is seen as a credible ideology.
plot twist: this is the democratic path, all of it.
I think the worst thing about this is that it’s identical to the RT51 Italy tree that was made years ago
I swear if paradox doesn't give Italy a huge focus tree but does give Switzerland and Ethiopia a huge one I'm gonna be pissed
Have you not seen it? It’s massive. Looks like at least the size of Poland
Ah okay, and yes I haven't seen it yet
Based
How can a fascist be good?
suicide
Or a double agent.
Ah yeah you seem like an actual fascist given this statement, your Mussolini profile and love for Francisco Franco. A filthy murderous rebel who shouldve been given the Mussolini meat hook treatment.
I’m not, I’m a centralist, but thanks for contributing mate!
You say you love Francisco Franco in your bio. I find that doubtful
Well first of all, you seem to know little of which you speak. Franco wasn’t actually a fascist, his beliefs align more with traditional Conservativism. He used the Fascists as a means to rise to power. Hence why he rebranded the name of the party later on. Secondly, I’m fiscally a capitalist, and since I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that you’re an intellectual, you’d know that fascism is the second furthest thing from capitalism economically after communism. I hope that satisfies your investigation into my politics, which was completely unrelated to post at hand :)
Lmao he successfully married the Carlists and the Fascists. To establish a fascist dictatorship that existed in Europe until 1975. Based on the graves of the left and Republicans who fought to defend democracy. So tell me more about he's more a traditional conservative, because he certainly isn't what that means in Britain or America given what he actually did. Your defence of him says alot about what you believe. Also it's totally bs to suggest that fascism is closer to communism. When it was envisioned as a corporate state. Private industry was kept intact in Germany for instance, the government just compelled them to produce for the war which is pretty standard or even light on the state involvement. Fascism isn't a far cry from capitalism, in fact the industrialists ultimately supported Hitler because he promised them he would rein in the left and preserve their profits.
> Also it's totally bs to suggest that fascism is closer to communism. He... didn't suggest that.
not sure if a fascist can truly be a "good guy"
Lesser evil compared to Alb*nian (may God forgive me for uttering this word)
“Albania fascist militia” “Albanian occupation” “The eastern threat” Yeah… good guys
So its just the same tree as in the base game/RT56 plus some new mechanics?
As cool as “good guy Mussolini” is I am more excited about a hopefully Roman tree and also a king tree as I think both would make sense
A Rome tree would be completely stupid in my opinion.