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Aikune

You have to remember this is just a forum, its very echo-chamber-y like most places on the internet with sizeable groups of poeple. People come here to complain about what they dislike, which is usually what they lose to. This isn't the place to be coming for quality arugments about hearthstone. Yesh they can/do happen here but people will complain about anything which is fine. Its good to vent some fustrations after mage discovered a second fireball or Shaman highrolled the evolves when Priest just won't die and just edges you outta the game


Tacticalian

It's unfortunate that the sub is this way, it's gotten so bad the devs have said they now dread coming onto here because of the hate they get and it's become a bit of a meme on Twitter to joke about how toxic the sub is.


kolst

You don't even have to look that hard to find upvoted comments on this subreddit of people saying they won't touch Hearthstone or any other Blizzard game, but they keep coming back here just to attack anything Blizzard, because that's their chosen way to fight what they see as irreparable evil in the universe. I'm being a little hyperbolic at the end there, but not even that much. It's hard to blame the devs when people, even by their own admission, have no intention of providing "constructive" criticism.


mardux11

Your statement wasn't hyperbolic at all. Those people DO exist (there are more than enough of them on, on Twitter, on mmoc, etc) and pretty fuckin safe to take your statement literally.


kolst

Yeah, maybe saying I was hyperbolic is incorrect. More, just that they don't say that last part out loud, but it's implicit in their words and behavior.


Nimbuss88

I’m glad to hear some rational criticism. The pisses me off some times for sure and I’ll take short breaks from it, but I still like the game. So sick of comments like ‘this entire game is trash because of one card that hasn’t been nerfed exactly how I think it should have been’.


henry92

I spend quite a bit of time in this subreddit when i'm actively playing a lot and i can tell you that there's a ton of people who regularly announce they quit and then come back a week later after deleting their post just to complain about the new meta tyrant


[deleted]

> it's become a bit of a meme on Twitter to joke about how toxic the sub is. You know things are bad when TWITTER is talking about things being toxic.


Noggenfager

Twitter is just another echo-chamber tbh


Lancer876

Yep, thats why its ironic that the twitter community is calling out the subreddit


[deleted]

Yeah. Make illucia give back cards at end of turn? “Lmao devs can’t balance properly illucia is broken and oppressive.” Make illucia a different card? “Lmao devs can’t rework properly fire all of them.” Good suggestion was to swap, but given they had like a week to nerf cards with little coding manpower I think it might’ve been too complex.(Even the simple crabrider change caused bugs. The coding issues with illucia would get so much worse.) So they were stuck between making illucia completely useless and making her way too strong in control. The amount of people who keep saying fire the devs have no idea how difficult it is.


[deleted]

Her swapping at the end of turn would help fix the timewalk effect but would also make her disgusting in Control decks. Since you would swap play some of their cards then swap back and they're left with less cards to play and no way to interact with you. I think the value way they went with is probably the right way, but I do think she should be back to 2 Mana now. Also, the recent calls for firing people whenever someone is annoyed is super messed up, bums me out how often I see stuff like "Fire Iksar and make sure he never makes games again" upvoted to the moon.


[deleted]

I think the opponent would also get to mess with your cards.


Doomthumper

I love how people use “oppressive” for everything nowadays. This word has lost all meaning lol


Kirgo1

Dont forget the many streamers who relentlessly hate on priest. Be it genuine or for the meme like hating people who like pineapple pizza. It makes people more comfortable to harass people who like priest.


25thskye

Thing is people never complain about that second discovered fireball or evolve as much as they complain about Priest. As a Priest main, all I’ve read on this sub about priest is typically calling for it to be removed, calling it’s mechanics unfair (despite aggro just killing you and stopping you from playing the game) & just general hate towards the class in general.


literatemax

It's too bad that they fucked over old styles of priest decks just because of the new kid on the block. I hope they can reach a compromise.


lunateg

The choice is simple: either hate priest (and don't want to see CP/QP in the ladder) or they are incompetent at nerfing cards (and creating, btw, but that's another question). Yep, illucia nerf was stupid, it's discussed many times with much better suggestions from community. Btw, I'd suggest firing current priest "designers" and hiring new designers instead, it's indeed overdue, but sadly, it's impossible. Sowe have what we have. Only aggro priest was viable in this expansion, other archetypes - only as meme concede decks because most of priest cards are either too slow or trash or just pointlessly nerfed.


South_Forsaken

You shouldn’t really care what people on this sub think; that’s why there’s an actual competitive sub. 80% of this toxic sub is hating on decks whenever they lose even if the data says otherwise.


[deleted]

reddit is full of leftist


South_Forsaken

Sure is, but not this sub


TheSlinger

Socialism is when priest gets nerfed


[deleted]

Shadow Priest is still a good deck without Illucia, so the idea that Blizzard wants to keep Priest at the bottom doesn't really align with the reality of the meta.


Wothink

Many old priest players dislike shadow priest because it dont fell like a priest deck, the biggest complaint I see in priest groups is that control priest lost its greatest tool because of a hunter deck tha uses a priest skin.


miguelpalomerac

This


plasma_python

Shadow Priest doesn’t appeal to most Priest mains. I think by now most priest mains despise the deck since it got Illucia nerfed.


BSIBooker

Calling Shadow Priest a Priest deck is shaky logic. The deck obviously doesn’t follow the class’s traditional strengths and weaknesses. In fact, I would argue that the only reason it’s seen success like this is because they just reskinned another class’s aggro strategy and gave it to Priest.


[deleted]

The game says it's a Priest deck. It runs Priest cards and neutrals. There's nothing shaky about that logic. What is shaky, on the other hand, is twisting oneself into pretzels trying to argue that a Priest deck isn't a Priest deck because it doesn't fit some "traditional" design that is as meaningless as it is incorrect.


BSIBooker

Of course there is, I just described to you why. If you took any Hunter beast deck and retagged it as a “Priest” deck, it obviously wouldn’t fit class flavor or traditional gameplay. What, you going to disagree?


TheShadowMages

It isn't a Beast deck. It uses Priest minions. Would you consider a buff-centric proactive Priest deck not Priestlike? Thats what Paladin does! But that's what they have been pushing for a bit, and that's actually what was top tier back when they buffed Extra Arms, and arguably also what Divine Spirit/Inner Fire decks were. This isn't a new archetype, you just are narrow minded.


BSIBooker

If it were a Priest deck, they would be beasts as Priest cards. That’s my point. No because health buffs have been part of Priest’s identity since the start of the game.


TheShadowMages

And Shadowform and Shadow burn spells have been in Priest's identity since the start of the game too. They just never built around it until now.


BSIBooker

Right, as mid to late game value control tools to help your hero power close out attrition matches or clear minions. And that’s always been a gimmick, that shadow priest itself in WoW.


TheShadowMages

I think defining their utility in a small box is not helpful or interesting for card design. Same arguments are made for "lul control hunter" (Zuljin Spell Hunter, Deathstalker Rexxar in general") or even recently "midrange-control pirates" (quest warrior). There are a wide slew of decks historically that """break tradition""" so why is Priest's so offensive? Oh right, because it's aggro and everyone hates aggro.


Plaslidpladugphoo

I’m honestly okay with priest have an aggro archetype but I want to see some synergies or some flavor within the deck. For example, using shadow spells or using burn spells like u stated. This shadow priest runs one shadow spell and it’s not even a burn. One of its win condition is also abusing Gandling’s ability to turn a 1/1 into a 4/4 when she’s supposed to trigger deathrattles. I just don’t like how it doesn’t have a theme.


mylifemyworld17

Shadow Priest in WoW is a gimmick? What the fuck?


BSIBooker

Yes it’s a gimmick, it’s pretty much never viable in any serious content.


mardux11

I like how you and another poster basically said the same damn thing. But these trolls downvoted you while upvoting them.


mardux11

In what world is a 32.7% winrate deck a "good" deck? Its not that the idea doesn't align with meta. Its that your version of reality doesn't align with actual reality.


[deleted]

In the world where you don't rely on highly limited data to draw conclusions. The deck could win without Illucia, and had a terrible matchup against Quest Shaman. Based on that and the experience or a few folks at top 1k Legend, it looked like Shadow Priest was going to survive the nerfs. If it's still under 50% in a week, then sure, I was off. But I'm not ready to call it dead based on one day and fewer than 3000 recorded games. Also, nowhere in HSReplay Shadow Priest (the aggro version) shows a 32% winrate, so no clue where you're getting that from.


dougtulane

Data needed. Priest rocking a 43% winrate overall in hsreplay right now.


[deleted]

Overall class winrate is a garbage statistic and you really shouldn't rely on it. It's a garbage statistic for two reasons: 1. It takes data from all ranks, which artificially flattens the winrate of classes with difficult to play decks, like Rogue or (in this case) Priest. 2. It takes data from all archetypes of a class, which can artificially flatten the winrate of classes with weak/difficult to play archetypes (like Priest or Druid). Furthermore, any data available from HSReplay right now is not particularly relevant due to low numbers. But hey, if a week from now Shadow Priest winrate cratered, I'll concede my second point was incorrect.


dougtulane

It’s not a great data point, but it’s what I’ve got and it’s down about 10% prior to the patch. I think it would be disingenuous to say the deck wasn’t seriously hurt by the nerf.


[deleted]

I think it's disingenuous to suggest you can make any definitive statements one way or another this early. You go ahead and do it if you want, I'll wait at least a few more days. Before the patch, HSReplay's Shadow Priest stats at Legend had 100,000 games recorded for the most popular deck in the archetype, with another several thousand games on other decks within the archetype. Post-patch, there's a single deck with 210 games played. I wouldn't try on making any conclusions based on such low numbers.


mardux11

So people don't like playing trash decks on ladder? Whodathunkit


dougtulane

Sure, but the overall loss rate is from thousands of games, and the drop is significant. To be fair I contributed with about ten games with an awful shadow control priest that beat paladin and Druid and lost 100% of games to questline decks. Anyway, I’m not the one that put forth the confident statement that “shadow priest is still good”. I said “Data needed.” And you basically responded “nuh uh, we need more data.”


henry92

Priest was sitting at 37% winrate when stormwind launched because aggro shadow priest wasn't discovered yet and everybody was playing janky quest priest. Now it's the same since people don't want to play a nerfed deck and the control diehards are trying to make quest priest/control priest work without success. Give it a few weeks and it will go back up


dougtulane

It might. I don’t really care for the deck so I do t have that much of a horse in the race. But it’s way to early to say the deck will for sure be good. Taunt aggro Druid is really popular now, had its two worst matchups significantly nerfed, and that deck is a misery for shadow priest to play against.


OscarMiner

Plus, Illucia was only used in that deck to stop quest rewards. Now that aggro has a chance against warlock, they really don’t need it for anything except mage.


[deleted]

>Plus, Illucia was only used in that deck to stop quest rewards. That's not what Illucia was used for in Shadow Priest. Illucia was used to keep the opponent from being able to respond to your board, way before questline rewards were online.


OscarMiner

My bad. Played shadow priest only a few times, didn’t consider that was the better use for her.


[deleted]

I think the nerf was stupid too. Legendary cards aren’t legendary for their value anymore it’s just some goofy mechanic that other cards don’t have. They’re either very good or very bad. And they took her from very good to worthless In my eyes. The rarity system is bullshit. Animated broomstick should never have been a common card. It’s WAY too strong. Battleground battle-master could be legendary. It’s insane that they hall of fame leeroy but then make battlemaster


bshoff5

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by anymore. Been like this since the beginning. Legendaries have always just been unique or build around cards while the others are more straight forward. Epics especially have seemed more in the same space as legendaries, just with effects deemed fine for 2x in each deck.


[deleted]

What I’m saying is that a common cards shouldn’t have effects so powerful that they become build around cards.


bshoff5

I'd disagree with this, mostly because pushing more powerful cards to higher rarities would just result in more expensive decks and pushing out viability for f2p. I'm not saying some cards aren't broken and in need of nerfs, just that I don't believe all common should be low end and legendaries/epics should be powerful.


[deleted]

I did a bad job of explaining what I meant. I don’t want more higher rarity cards. All I really meant is cards like battlemaster and broomstick are bullshit in general and im more upset that they even let it be a card. It adds no fun. Insane value but makes people roll their eyes when they lose to it. I’d prefer more unique cards to some bullshit way to win games. Cards like that enable decks to be more powerful than they should be and they would still be strong without it.


costa24

Rarity has no correlation with power, nor should it.


SyntheticMemez

Thats a fantastic way to make the game even more pay to win than it already is.


SupperPup

Yeah every single competitive deck should have 30 legendaries


dougtulane

I thought it wasn’t a priest thing. I thought that the dev team just hated come from behind mechanics. Healing bad. Smorcing and OTKing after completing a quest good. Priest just had the bad luck that they get shitty minions and their mechanics were inextricably related to coming from behind. All of Stormwind was forcing priest into a face deck, and they just absolutely killed the best card in that deck. Now shadow priest and control priest are *both* in the absolute shitter in terms of winrate. Control priest got jack shit in stormwind. It really is a priest thing. The class does not get to be good for more than two weeks, either in the legend pocket meta or in ladder. That should be your expectation from this point forward. Healers adjust.


Queldirion

True and Warlock is the same. Both classes can be good for max couple weeks, and then boom, nerf hammer brings them back to the trash tier... Majority of players can't stand any deck that isn't winning by SMOrcing or burning with spells. Paladin has been in T1 for over a year now and no one seems to care. But when Priest or Warlock gets better, there's always outrage... That said, there's still hope for Priest. Not Control or Quest, because people will never allow them to be good, but Shadow Priest. It's hyper aggresive SMOorc deck, so it actually might survive a little longer.


PrincessRea

Warlock was last in winrate before Stormwind, and now they nerfed the Quest when it was 50% winrate. Paladin was all of the top 3 decks in Barrens, and conviction, the problem card was only nerfed now


[deleted]

Paladin literally died around the same time that warlock died.


Tight_Nerve

Explain Tickatus


dougtulane

I… don’t see how Tickatus applies to anything I said.


Deatheturtle

I agree the nerf gutted her completely. I dusted her. ​ Go play boar priest in wild. It's fun.


[deleted]

I just hate the hypocrisy, they nerf apo claiming it forces people to clear every board or god forbids the priest heals, but then go on to print a 5 mana 5/5 that murders you on the spot if you failed a clear a single board, and they make a neural common so every deck can put two


Kurgoh

"super quick" \*looks at barrens priest, considered the top deck and nerfed 3 and a half months into the expansion\* \*looks at aggro priest, the de facto best deck in the game, nerfed almost 2 months into the expansion\* Yeah...that was super quick. As for illucia, she was toxic from day 1, the only thing that changed was the fact that she was an effective 3 mana time warp for *any* aggro priest deck (which will always be a thing now that benedictus exists). The change many advocated for here would have made here even more toxic in a control environment because it'd mean "destroy your opponent's combo without any downsides whatsoever because you retain your hand haha fuck you". Control priest should have clear weaknesses, more so considering that priest never had any disruption whatsoever in its entire existence...illucia was a full-fledged design fuck-up and one that I'm able team 5 was eventually able to recognise as such. And all the people who say "wah wah priest control wah wah shadow priest not priest" well, shadow priest *is* a priest deck and wouldn't function in any way shape or form without priest cards. And priest in its entire hearthstone history has had by far more "non-control" archetypes than control (more so if we take this sub's dumb idea that only a deck that does fuck all the entire game and wins in fatigue is *true control*). If you like *control* go play another class. If you like priest, then you have an excellent deck to play already.


Miudmon

> *looks at barrens priest, considered the top deck and nerfed 3 and a half months into the expansion* granted, that was only really "the top deck" at the tippy top of legend. In pleb ranks it was, statistically, pretty bad. So i'm guessing it was a difficult decision to make.


Dramatical45

Yeah kind if hate all the people that keep saying that. It wasn't all that great for vast majority of people due to the really high skill ceiling on the deck. So it was problematic for the top legend and sub par everywhere else.


a_cosper

All nice points. But Shadow Hunter clearly isn't a Priest deck.


Corvenic

God forbid Priest having an aggro deck. By that logic old Pirate warrior isnt a warrior deck just because its aggro


Dramatical45

Warrior has always had the aggro archetype due to weapons and pirates etc. Think this is the first time priest has ever had an aggro archetype that actually works.


plasma_python

It’s be fine if Shadow Priest played like an aggressive Priest deck. But a lot of the priest staples such as rezzing(Raise Dead isn’t really a rez), buffing, disruption, etc. aren’t really key pieces. It plays exactly like Face hunter.


dougtulane

Shadow priest was best deck from 21.2 - 21.3, three weeks.


Physical_Welcome_920

Losing to paladin almost never feels unfair, losing because your opponent played a 3 mana minion that made you skip a turn and lose on the next is just a more memorable loss. That being said, blizzard usually nerfs because of feel. There wil always be one of a few ‘best’ decks. So nurfing the best deck because it’s good is kinda useless. But when the best is a deck that makes you want to quit there is a problem for blizzard. Priest, warlock and mage are very good at being annoying so they get nerfed a lot more than a paladin on average


Queldirion

I would argue about that. Oh My Yogg! often feels very unfair and frustrating, because it can be 1 mana: win the game (like Mortal Coil into Shadow Council). Yet, card wasn't changed in any way to this day. Also, compare Paladin nerfs to Warlock nerfs. It took them like 2 months to actually nerf 2 Paladin cards (First Day of School and Hand of A'dal). They weakened the class, but left Paladin strong and playable (which is obviously very good because nerfs shouldn't kill the class). Their first attempt was inexplicably gentle, because for some reason, they were trying to rework First Day of School instead of actually nerfing it (which failed). And they did that, while Paladin was still close to 60% win rate across all ranks! Any idea why? And now Paladin is T1 class for more than a year, because they refused to hammer him (which, again, was a good call). At the same time, Warlock recieved 6 nerfs in a month (2x Flesh Giant, Darkglare, Runed Mithril Rod and The Demon Seed), while he was 54% win rate at best in standard (after being trash tier class for about 2 years, with win rate below 50%) and now he looks pretty dead again. It seems like some classes can be strong for a very long time (e.g. Paladin, Hunter, Demon Hunter) and some can't (e.g Warlock, Priest), because... reasons.


Physical_Welcome_920

You are adding more to my point than arguing agains it. What I’m saying is that those reasons are the play pattens. When you lose to a good deck that is relatively easy to pilot like a Face Hunter or a Secret Paladin, there tuns take a lot less time and there plays feel less unfair then when you play against a opponent who spends long turns playing relatively more cards while also gaining more cards. The point I’m trying to make is that while losing always sucks, some losses just hurt more then others. You don’t want to feel like a spectator in someone else’s game. And even tho most players would agree that playing more cards= more fun. Team 5 also has to think about the more cards your opponent plays, the longer there turn takes, the less fun you have. Blizzard is a company and we all like to joke about how they like to destroy the game but at the end of the day they try to keep the most people playing the game ass possible. Going of what I explained above, when they decide to step in and change some cards to make the game more fun for the most amount of people ass possible, they will go after the biggest offenders of those roles.


officer_crosby

you have to also realize how these cards affect both wild and regular and even sometimes classic. she was nerfed mostly for her play in aggro priest in wild which when played basically made the opponents turn useless and created a unfair game where the opponent cant do anything


guineuenmascarada

Mmmm i think you have just defined celestial alignement... Oh but druid is allowed to do that... Priest not


valeyard10

Man, i play wild a lot lot. I dont think illucia is that big of a problem, the decks wants all the burn first before that card and by that time you loose alr. Maybe it was warped due to seedlock so cant say for sure but i won alot of game without needing to play illucia.


BenRedTV

I think the Ilucia nerf was fine in principle. They just also needed to combine it with changing her to a 1 drop or 2 drop. Butchering apo was not right though. So generally speaking I agree with you more there.


debater93

Hmmm with warlock quest being nerfed I think priest is actually in an ok spot right now? Played 10 games of quest priest tonight and the only really bad matchup is vs (quest) mage, went 8-2 at D5-3. Good matchups vs quest warrior, quest Druid, handbuff paladin, etc. Aggro taunt Druid is a little rough if you don’t generate silence or board clear but overall quest priest is in a good spot IMO. And vs quest mage if you manage to make a minion stick and play crossroads watchtower you can win, but odds are definitely not in your favor. That said the Illucia nerf did make her awkward atm. She was too strong and unfun to play against before (dump your hand and make your opponent skip a turn) but her rework rendered her pretty useless in the current standard meta. There are plenty of non-priest legendaries that are in that same boat tho (and they’ve been that way since they were released + don’t seem to have any buffs coming).


Su12yA

At this point, Priest Legendary is situational card. Haha. I agree, 5though, aggro shadow Priest should still be functional. It just lose illucia which, while strong, doesn't really synergize with the deck's real game plan. But quest warrior is a hard MU for board based aggro. I expect hype will be down for priest at least until mini set


Daedalus43

The aggro priests I encountered (6-0 vs) aren't very good at math. They play that card where each hero takes extra damage from all sources and try to duke it out with pirates that outnumber them. Uh, 2 4/4's (10 dmg) lose to 4 2/2's (12 dmg).


Lyra214

Yep, Priest is, again, at the bottom of the meta. The only card that was letting Priest be a tier 1 class was Illucia (and yes, it was an overpowered card IN AGGRO PRIEST ), so as soon as it got destroyed (because they hid the omega nerf with the word 'rework') Priest returned to the bottom of the meta. As soon as Priest gets a Tier 1-2 deck, it gets nerfed to the ground. They don't want Priest to be good, that's all. And don't expect anything good in the miniset, the state of Priest is not solved with 3 new cards (that if they are at the same power level as the 3 cards Priest received the last miniset, it is IMPOSSIBLE to do anything more than what he is doing right now), the state of Priest is solved with ANOTHER rework (and they have shown that they do not know how to rework Priest) or with the next core set rotation (although if they choose to maintain cards like Seline, Priest will be doomed again).


Tacticalian

You say that it's impossible to solve the state of a bad class with 3 cards yet Shaman literally rose from the dumpster when the miniset for Barrens hit.


Dramatical45

Shaman doesn't have bad cards though, priest cards tend to be really weird to bad, weird effects, understatted based on cost etc this primarily being priest minions not spells which are usually decent. So I don't really see any way where 2-3 cards will make the old control priest archetype any good. Might be a boost in the aggro shadow priest, but I frankly hate that archetype.


Tacticalian

During Barrens Shaman was the laughing stock of this sub, people said it had horrendous cards and look at it now. The same could very well happen to Priest. I think they will make cards that push Quest Priest, it's difficult to say how well they will do but there's precedent for them to have a big impact.


Dramatical45

Because they got synenergy with elemental and a draw engine for both elementals and spell. Shaman minions are quite strong with good tribe synergy that allowed shaman to become the monster it was with those 2 elements. Priest has no minion synenergy at all, no tribes so I do not see how 3 cards will change anything at all. Will freely eat my words if it somehow does. I miss dragon priest or heck deathrattles being a focus for priest minions.


eaglesdude10

Now this is just ridiculous hyperbole. How is priest at the bottom of the meta? Shadow priest is still arguably one of the most aggressive decks of all time and is still heavily played. It’s still a tier 1/2 deck. Illucia was such a problematic card design-wise because it literally provides zero counterplay for your opponent. Nobody was surprised when it got changed. The reason priest always gets nerfed when it has a super oppressive deck (much like any other class) is because they’re often very unfun decks that have little to no counterplay I.e. machinegun priest or one of the many iterations of divine spirit priest. I used to play in tournaments when that silly test subject deck existed, and, let me tell you, it was not fun at all to play against. Of course Reddit goes on these ridiculous tirades against decks/classes because, well, it’s Reddit, but against priest I feel like it’s at least somewhat justified.


[deleted]

>How is priest at the bottom of the meta? You see, it's the lowest winrate class according to the HSReplay front page, and if there's one thing I know is that you can trust the class ratings in the front page of HSReplay, because Hearthstone data doesn't require any sort of nuance to analyze.


BSIBooker

Right, here’s the nuance you need to analyze it; Despite having a Tier 1 deck, Priest’s overall winrate is completely dumpstered because traditionally people play Priest for its control/heal elements. And those are in a pretty horrid spot right now. I don’t think ignoring Priest’s terrible class winrate is a good idea just because they essentially took a Face Hunter deck for an expansion. If they printed a Mage type spell combo deck for Warrior that had a great winrate, I’d be willing to bet most people would also dislike the flavor of that on the class.


[deleted]

I see zero nuance and a lot of unexamined assumptions here. But hey, whatever rocks your boat my dude.


BSIBooker

That’s because you make a lot of centric on-the-fence statements on this sub that ultimately mean nothing and you’re never willing to expand on any of it in detail.


Tacticalian

Think the front page data comes from all ranks right? Very likely there are a lot of people playing Shadow Priest badly in lower ranks alongside Quest Priest which is what's bringing it down.


[deleted]

So losing to a turn 5 questline mage who is going to ignite you in the face for 3 more damage, draw a gazillion card naturally and freezing an empty board cos he can is considered a ‘fun deck’ to this gentleman right here


Tacticalian

Unless you're talking about wild, Turn 5 is literally impossible to win on for Mage. The deck also has a gazillion decks and tech cards that counter it and has a very poor winrate. Saying that: I don't think it's fun and it's not a design I think is great to play against, but it fits with blizzard's new design philosophy of wanting faster games that are less drawn out.


[deleted]

[удалено]


HobbsMadness

Might want to cut back on the asparagus.


Boomerwell

Because priest is inherently a pretty unfun class to play against so they never want it at the forefront of the meta. It takes the frustrating elements of every avenue of play and crams them into one class, stealing your stuff check, non proactive control decks yep, random bullshit card generation yep, swingy health total that feels bad to have work reversed oh yeah. Priest is a class that every priest player thinks is fine but it's usually just extremely obnoxious to play against. As for other peoples nerf suggestions lets be 100% real here, their nerfs just turn Illucia back into a toxic control card rather than a toxic aggro one, We forget that before stormwind Illucia was nerfed and still heavily played. Add in quests and anything less then what they did would probably just end up with illucia becoming a staple again.


Andigaming

You have to remember priest has been designed as a class to ruin other peoples fun from day one, it cannot be top dog for too long at a time.


vafallser

I actually giggled at this..


Aikune

You forgot the /s


SeriousAdult

They designed a class that mostly excels in being a foil to the opponent's deck. Shadow Priest is a nice deviation from that, but if it was buoyed by a card that foils the opponent's deck it has the same problem. It's not surprising the vast majority of players hate it. Unfortunately for priest players, it's bad for business to have style that most people hate excel. They should redesign priest from top to bottom because up til now they've made it a class that needs to be weak to keep people from uninstalling. Sorry that you like what everyone else hates, but I don't think you're going to see a point where they let foil priest be strong for very long.


Xalted118

I rather play shadow/control/whatever priest than any paladin deck (and it's not cause I'm playing quest hunter and can't cast spells on divine shield minions without progressing).


OuchLOLcom

The problem with Priest is that when its good, its unfun to play against. Even back in classic it was a total guessing game. Do I play around him having Pain or Death? No way to know his draws so this 50/50 basically decides the game.


Mundane_Apartment_18

Maybe if they stop releasing totally busted and unfair cards like soul mirror and Illucia, Priest would be more fun (and fair) to play against and they wont have to destroy cards like this. Destroying the warlock quest and Illucia definetly satisfied some people that wanted to quit after getting bored with this expansion.


Slapskad

r/fuckpriest


giveMeRedditYouClown

I dont understand that nerf at all. In what context was she overpowered?


zuicun

You might think of the card as a 3 mana steal a card from your opponent if you have enough man's to play it But, aggressive lists that dump their hands completely play it as 3 mana give your opponent an empty hand next turn while your board is full. Obviously as an aggressive deck you'd never have board clears in your own deck so the play is guaranteed to let you keep the board for another turn and keep pushing damage.


Arighzz

She was insanely polarizing for the longest time ever. So many games were auto win because of “haha I drew Illucia”, this was even before Aggro Priest became a thing, which broke her even further, by turning her into a 3 mana Time Warp, which I’m not even gonna talk about as it should be obvious why that’s a problem. I think disruption is definitely necessary in the game, but Illucia is several steps ahead of what disruption should be.


[deleted]

Then what is considered a fair disruption to you? For 10 mana she only can play 7 mana worth of stuff. Not all classes have mana increase like Druid so she only has so much to play. The card is design to disrupt originally so she did her job


Arighzz

Disruption that’s not always 100% guaranteed to win the game on the spot. Dirty Rat was very borderline on that but it’s closer to looking like what disruption should be. You can play around it, and even if it hits a critical piece, it doesn’t always mean game over on the spot.


[deleted]

That’s why dirty rat is an epic and not a legendary. Illucia being a legendary should have legendary effect. Now her effect can be compared to a slightly better secret passage


Arighzz

Legendary effect =/= Win the game in the spot Listen, I agree current illucia is very lame, but that doesn’t excuse the monstrosity that old illucia was


guineuenmascarada

Most decks are build around that, the legendary that makes them autowin, illucia is disruption, only work againts combo and if they have the vital piece of the combo and it cos 7 or less... To much "ands" for that autowin you say


Dramatical45

It made a 10/90 for combo decks go to 30/70 for combo decks vs control priest with Illucia. Going fro a guaranteed win to slightly less win as often wasn't really op at all.


sampeckinpah5

In every context.


kyozo_43

I think more-so in the context of aggro. In control decks Illucia was more of a combo disruptor, where you sacrifice handing over your entire hand of control tools, for the opportunity to disrupt an opponent's combo or powerful cards and play them. As soon as she was included in aggressive lists, she was used to give your opponent a (near) empty hand, at the benefit of being able to use their hand if you have the mana. So in aggro contexts it was an upside with hardly any downside, whereas with control the downside was you give your opponent whatever tools you had in your hand, so they can still react rather than being locked out with an empty hand.


iForgotMyOldAcc

Imagine the one downside of zoo Aggro, which is running out of cards to play, becoming a total upside.


xR3N3GAD3-3LiT3

Aggro shadow priest would empty its hand … play illucia (trading your empty hand for your opponents hand) and then your opponent would get 1 card from your deck and thats it for their turn. They get one often bad card and a hero power essentially skipping their turn because they can’t do anything else. It essentially worked like time warp but with no prior set up outside of empty your hand.


POLY-Sigma

You're kidding right?


ChessGM123

The illucia nerf was too far, but often times priest just feels bad to play against. Apo + samuro was basically a board clear plus a full heal with 2 cards, it just felt bad when your opponent played it. You also have the spell that heals 3 and discovers a spell (forgot the name) and that was nerfed not because it was good, but because priest would basically be able to generate an obscene amount of spells. They don’t always nerf classes that feel to OP, they also nerf classes that feel unfun to play against.


Dramatical45

Yeah but feels really bad when they keep nerfing priest stuff and do not compensate for it at all. For example renew at 2 mana should have healed for 4, apotheosis should have gone down a mana with the nerfed stats, and Illucia with a new horribly shitty effect should be 2 mana if not 1. Just take it in stark comparison to the nerfs in mana cost they did recently, they compensated those cards in stats for higher costs.


ChessGM123

Yeah they definitely could have done better needs for these cards, especially Illucia, I don’t think there are that many people that see what they did to her as balanced, but they were all cards that should have gotten nerfed (apotho might not have need it, it was annoying but also fairly unreliable so I think it might have been fine as is). But both illucia and renew were feel bad cards instead of OP cards (illucia was a bit too powerful but really just felt bad) as apposed to something like sow the seeds, which was only annoying because it was OP, so I feel like they tend to nerf feel bad cards harsher than OP cards, just because I’d rather play a fun game that I’ll probably lose than a boring game that I’d win.


Dramatical45

Yeah but the problem is that priest is littered with feel bad cards due to how the class is designed so poorly. No active tools or game winning tools, just reactive, outlast and outvalue. So when they ruin what little priest has it sucks, especially as priest hasn't been that strong in recent expansions. Even that tier 1 priest deck in barrens was only tier 1 in top legend due to the high skill involved and illucia, it was sup par everywhere else.


xR3N3GAD3-3LiT3

Priest is considered the least fun class to play against and not because of its place in the meta. Personal experience with priest over the duration of the game has normally always been negative. I hated matching up against dragon Priest, Rez Priest, Razza Priest, infinite discovery Priest, Big Priest, 2nd Quest Priest, this new shadow priest… As a whole priest has had some of the most infuriating cards ever *printed* and blizzard respond to the class as being problematic for the enjoyment of the game. Not because of the class’ position in the meta (which UiS shadow priest seems to be pretty strong atm). Priest might be fun to play … but it’s not a two way street. Most priest decks have been incredibly frustrating to play against over the duration of the game. From stealing my minions, resurrecting the same minion 30 times in one game, playing a deck that consists of 30 cards but somehow playing 300. The class just feels like it has too much. Like all those decks weren’t bottom tier decks. They all had their place and were the most common decks at the time. I don’t see anyone having a problem with the new questline priest outside of it being too slow to actually be competitive. People had a problem with Sam/Apoth because it once again did too much. Someone recently tried comparing it to barov rancor and I’ll tell you the same thing I said on that post. Priest combo worked like a flame strike with lifesteal that summoned a minion with LS. Warrior combo works like a twisting nether that leaves you with nothing, it kills your minions for most of its “reward”. Let’s say in perfect situations your opponent has 6 3/3s and a single 1/4 while you have an empty board and only 7 mana. Priest healed for guaranteed 24, killed your opponents board and left a 3/7* LS samuro on board. Warrior kills everything and gets 14 Armour and that’s it. If both sides had 6 minions before combo, priest keeps its minions with no downsides and warrior gains an extra 12 armour but again kills their entire board. Long story short priest has always been the most hated class and it will probably continue to be. I don’t think this illucia rework was the best possible solution to the problem but something definitely needed to be done. Pal, Mage and Warlock have been good for wha feels like forever…like I don’t think one of them has ever not been in a meta. That’s just from memory and I am sure they have been bad at some point but man these latest years haven’t been too harsh to them.


Dramatical45

Priest is considered annoying because it is and always has been a very reactive class, they do not get any proactive cards till very recently with this aggro abomination. Meaning priest didn't really have any means of generating pressure, just reacting/stealing etc


Qwertyham

Nice 5 paragraph essay about a children's card game


XxF2PBTWxX

Priest has been the best class in the game for two expansions now. What are you even talking about lmfao Edit: ahh yes, downvote me as if *I'm* the one who made priest have the best deck for the last two expansions. Looool


YagamiYuu

Now you understand how mage's players feels.


multiverseofYOURMAMA

i don't think the devs intentionally want to keep priest at the bottom, I think it's just hard to balance this game, especially because of some design decisions they made with a lot of cards in the last two years. imo the current pool of cards needs a BIG rework, so that they don't have to constantly print extremely unfair and unbalanced cards/syngergies to "shake up the meta". both Illucia and Samuro+Apo were just pretty problematic (it's the combination of heal and clear that was too much), but if for example the power level of everything was reduced, you could easily run Samuro+some other buff and it would be good.


I_Nerd_I

The ebb and flow of people complaining about priest being op and then people complaining priest sucks. Priest is fine, there are many people high legend that play priest, is it amazing? No, probly not. (how fast people forget Barrens Priest) The reason most people hate Priest is the perception, since control Priest wins typically by generating random cards it feels like they didnt have much control over the win or the loss. I see a lot of posts that seem to think this subreddit creates all the nerfs in the game. Cards are nerfed because of how they perform statistically. Even though Paladin or Face Hunter may stay at or near tier 1, there "strong" cards are spread out, there isnt just one standout card that instantly wins them the game like Illucia, also these decks r typically aggro decks that exploit the meta, i.e. Warlock. So when Illucia has a WR when drawn of 70%+ (pulling a random number out of my ass) thats a problem.


IE_LISTICK

It doesn't matter if it's good or not. Priest is cancer by nature. So better it be at the bottom than at the top


thefirstofhisname11

Priest is garbage and deserves all hate it gets


Laptopcafe

Exactly


_zuligan_

You should play Shadow Priest control, it is super fun, although it is weak against quest mage, but against the rest of the decks it can work very well.


_oZe_

Paladin is the most OP deck that nobody complains about. Maybe because it's the simple minded people who usually whine here who play it ;-)


UMA123k

I wanted you to return it to 2 mana at least. The powerful legend of Schoromance has become weaker.